Guild Wars 2

1. Decoy
2. Arc. Thievery/Null,
3. P. Defender/MoC

Pathing/LoS in this game are two of the biggest issues, tbh. ILeap, anyone? Let alone the scenario of: The NPCs wrecking you, but you keep getting the “obstructed” message on your ranged attacks or Phantasms. We’ve all been there, and it’s no fun at all. I honestly think that the devs need to remove LoS until such time as they get it to work properly.

The simplest fix for Last Refuge is to give it the same Revealed-ignoring effect that Mesmer’s Decoy skill applies. I honestly don’t know why this hasn’t been done, since the existence of Decoy implies both:

1. The ability exists in the current codebase.
2. More importantly, the ability can be done.

Especially when one considers the name “Last Refuge,” and its operating conditions. There’s no logical reason it doesn’t already function in this manner. As it stands now, LR is Thief’s “Reanimator;” that Trait you’re stuck with, and despise.

Now, as far as the Nerfbat goes: I’m against it, in the vast majority of cases. I’m more a fan of buffing your weaker weapon/skill specs to compete more fairly with their higher counterparts. As for the general idea of which class is sneakier, I’d call it a tie for the following reasons:

1. Thief’s got more overall Stealth options, and their options can be heavily Trait-modified. (Without accounting for the “perma-stealth” effect.)
2. By contrast, it’s less Mesmer’s Stealth, it’s the fact of Stealth plus “pet” usage.
   An unfortunate side-effect of how the class is designed to operate. Clones are the
   “main” Mesmer mechanic, Stealth merely happens to help with the Mindscrew.

I apologize, this one’s going to have some length.

Here’s how you kill most condition Mesmers: Conditions, and baiting out their condi-clears.

Between a steady application of your own condis, and range-killing clones, you’ve removed most of what a condi-mes uses to fight. Particularly full-Rabid builds; sure, the condi-pressure is pretty harsh, but their Health is lower than -say- a Phantasm spec. (Not to mention, direct DPS will have to account for a Rabid spec’s high Toughness)

Also, Mesmer condi-clear is mostly from Utilities/on-crit Sigils, there’s no passive option as with an SA Thief. Closest things for a Mesmer “passive” cleanse are either Mender’s Purity, which:

• Procs on heal skill usage
• Needs points invested into the Inspiration tree, which a lot of non-Phantasm or Glamour/Triforce Mesmers don’t really work with.

… or …

Cleansing Conflagration, which drops a Condition per use of a Torch skill. The build the OP describes is most likely using this trick. Especially when one considers that Torch #4 is an additional Stealth. (Also a Mesmer’s only Blast Finisher, but that’s not terribly pertinent to this topic )
—————————————————————————————————————————————————————

Now that we’ve addressed the Condition output, let’s move on to Stealth. Besides Decoy (which does sidestep Revealed; an effect I’ve personally said should be duplicated for Last Refuge), all but two Stealth options are Utility Skills, and will effect
how many other Utilities said Mesmer is running.

Out of those 5 options, two (Veil and Mass Invis) are on rather long C/Ds, one’s best with 50 Traits dumped (Torch #4, using Cleansing Conflagration and Prismatic Understanding), and one moonlights as a stunbreak (Decoy). The 5th (Deceptive Decoy) is a purely reactive skill, rather like Last Refuge. Any of these can easily be self-broken by poor attack timing, especially with Staff autoattacks taking forever to bounce around.

One trick you may want to watch out for is Arcane Thievery. This fun little trick takes 3 of your boons, and replaces them with 3 of the Mesmer’s conditions. It does count as a projectile, however … it can be blocked/dodged/invuln’d.

Also, assuming a Staff/Scepter/Torch Condi-Mesmer: Forget Thieves’ Guild, run Dagger Storm. Staff and Scepter projectiles can -and will- be bounced back.
The free bleed/cripple also helps slow down the Mesmer, and whittle away their Health. Not to mention Stability vs. Condition application. Ideally, you wish to use this after baiting out Arc. Thievery or Null Field, so as to lessen the chance of being stipped of your Stability.

Hopefully this helps you with the Thief vs. Mesmer issues.

@Dawdler
As for the glamour reduction Trait. I’m sure most players’d rather have Glamour Mastery and Temporal Enchanter folded into one Trait. But that’s its own issue.

@Arewn
You’re absolutely right, RE: Utility Skills. That’s the mainstay of why I stated that -as things currently lie- Veil feels more like an Elite. Hell, you get a combofield, stealth (modded by PU), and a massive number of targets stealthed. Whereas Mass Inv. excels in duration, but that’s honestly about it.

Honestly, Time Warp’s our only Elite that -IMHO- feels like an “Elite” skill. And, I’m sure some would say that even it could use a bit of tweaking, post-Quickness nerf.

Carighan.6758:

Veil should be an actual wall-spell, IMO. Players standing on opposite sides of it cannot see each other, as if invisible (they can freely cast AEs behind the wall, mind you).

It was almost like that during one of the original class-vids. You could see through, the enemy couldn’t. No idea why they changed it …

More like:
The number stealthed from each needs to be modified. MI, as an ELITE, only stealths 5-10 people. Veil’s far more, although with less duration. Isn’t that a bit backward?
You’d think Veil would be both: less stealthed, and shorter c/d. Failing that, then swap their positions and stealth durations. Besides duration, Veil’s more of an Elite ability, as things currently stand.

The issue with adding condi-clear to MI is simple. That, plus PU … and we all know folk’d run that combo.

Funniest part of this biz is as follows:

• Tweaking our -arguably best- utility Phantasm … which, honestly was fine as is.
• Meanwhile, IMage is still the Emperor of Phailtasms?

Sorry, gents … but you honestly tweaked the wrong Phantasm. At least in my view.

Well, well. Allow me to sign on the dotted line marked, “Thank you.” The WXP change is precisely what I and many others wanted; namely account bound Rank, and points assignable by char. Excellent.
Also: A GvG zone, AND a look-see into the structuring of Leagues? Not bad, folks. Not bad at all.

What was that about a Major in Pain, and a Minor in Suffering?

Given time, you can definately have multiple Ascended Trinket sets. For example:

I went Rabid first, until the point I started getting Accessories. At that point, I started kittening about with Celestial spec. Of course, when I run “full” Condition, I keep with the older 0/20/30/0/20 spec, and the extra bit of Vitality and Power (while not losing as much Precision) helped in WvW.

Now, I’m running (besides Rabid back … no Celestial option) full Celestial trinkets. I also pack both rings and amulet in Rabid, and’ll get the accompanying Accessories.
Could’ve had ‘em already, if I hadn’t decided to trick my Ele and Thief out for a while.

As for yourself, I’d suggest the Zerker set first, if you’re mainly into PvE. The sad fact is that -at this time in the game’s lifespan- DPS craps all over Condition in PvE. The Rabid’d be best for WvW, by comparison.

In my experience, if you’re going to faff about with Celestial, you’re better off doing it via Trinkets. Either way, you’re going to give up more “specialized” performance in order to do a certain (if smallish) bit better in other areas.
Also, that way allows for using your weapon/armor combo as a “main” method of switching EQ specs on the fly. The setup works much better in WvW, which is fine by me considering I don’t PvE for crap these days. (Unless I’m amused by the current LS, or something).

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

No nerf will ever stop my pew pew.

QFT.
Like I said in another thread like this one: I’ve spent too much time investing in a “workable” Gunslinger build. Folk are still getting shot to pieces.

Needless to say, I’ll still dual-gun fools just as often as I swap over to my mesmer and hand ’em the ’ol purple. I spent too much time gearing for a “workable” Gunslinger Thief to ashcan her now.

Well, phaeris:
Ironically, the class numbers released ~2 months back show Mesmer as one of the game’s least played classes. As for the strength of PU, I’d call it less of a Mesmer = OP thing, and more of every bleeding class in game needs to have good Grandmaster Traits. I mean, let’s be realistic here. For any GM Trait, you’re plopping almost half of your char’s available Traits … ergo, the reward should be darned good.

And, no, it’s not just Thieves getting shafted there. Most classes have GM Traits that are either:

• poorly placed.
  or
• not nearly powerful enough for the point cost.

As such, I would honestly like for the Devs to apply some form of logic to point burn vs. reward, as a concept entire. I’m personally convinced that the reason some Mesmer GM Traits are so relatively “great” is because – as the last class officially leaked -
the code-jockeys actually happened upon some darned good ideas. And that is what the game needs more, not trying to dumb everything down toward uselessness.

As much as I’d like to see more AoE on Mesmer … that’s probably not going to happen. Mesmer’s already decried as being “broken” and “OP” – so, logically, to get more AoE damage, you know full well the class’d get nerfed and shagged raw in some other area.

Now, more “trustworthy” usage of Mesmer’s current AoE abilites (seriously, try shattering in a large group/heavy damage boss), that might just work.

Meh. That was obnoxious last night. So, who’s up for a ninja-jacking of HoD’s BL tonight?

Speak for yourselves, I merely consider other servers to be food or parts.

Heh.

• You wonder why your RL sword doesn’t come with purple deathrays.
• You wish you could just plant a Duelist on your lazy moron of a coworker.
• You want clones, just so you could go triplet on some poor SOB and confuse the crap out of ’em.
• Any character in an anime with either purple energy effects/mindscrew makes you break out howling with laughter. Usually followed by the comment “Those kittening Mesmers, again!”

lujate.5432:

Iavra.8510:

Female Asura here. Still looking for a good torch skin ^^

FWIW, I use Occultist Flame.

As do I. Pretty snazzy … for something non-purple

Avatar of Belle.9623:

And if all the bronze league servers merged, we would be T1!

Ahem! What’s that about …
Sorrow’s Terrace of Denravi’s Crossing?" I mean, seriously. That force alone could potentially wreck most of Silver.

Sylvari male, here. I also rock a purple glow scheme. Although, I will admit Cultural armor looks 10x better on female Sylvari. Eh, I still manage.

Goodness. No Icebrood/Margonites?

Oh, I’m still around – tend to appear around reset weekend. TBH, my 1000+ hours were beginning to catch up, so I’ve been limiting my exposure a bit. Although, I do have an itchy Mesmer/Thief-finger, so some poor sap’s getting wiped soon.

At the very least, I’d personally like to see the Vital Shot dilemma handled. In a perfect world, I could see:

• VS aftercast fixed
• Either Body Shot or Unload being given an evade or leap component.

Quit selling our guys short, Solstice. One can argue that’ll just kill off morale. A much more amusing end would be a 3rd place tie between us and DH. It’s not impossible, at this rate.

Sod this. First match after leagues needs to be the Bro Trio. A lot of crap’s being slung on all sides, and it needs squashed. Hell, it needed be squashed during this season, but we got bloody well trolled.
As far as my opinion – the only “Bronze” we haven’t secured at least one win on – preseason or during – is HoD. Past that, it honestly depends on who brings their S-Rank tail-whipping skills out, and when.

I tossed mine on a Soldier/Knight combo. Although, I’ve been plenty tempted to go more towards Assassin with some Cavalier/Valkyrie for durability.
In a “perfect” world, I’d have a set on a condition suit, and a fight suit. But the price at current isn’t something I care to slow-grind my way to.

AlexEBT.7240:

Kincaidia.3192:

Sorry, the red names only post enough to make us think that they care – just enough to be able to say “We asked for feedback didn’t we?”.

The patch was already decided before they came in and “got feedback”. Just try to reimagine your builds, as it’s all that’s left for us to do.

Or just reroll. Don’t forget that they base much of their balancing on metrics. If the number of thief players drops enough it may force them to actually do something about this whole balance mess.

QFT.
As much as I hate to agree with such a dire option, it is indeed the most logical way out of this current situation. Hell, I had the exact opinion, regarding the original talk of NA Leagues (2 of 12 servers per).

Eh, haven’t tagged up in a while, but my gear’s the same overall spread it was when I did.
Celestial trinkets (Except that darn backpiece), I generally go frontline with one of the following:

1. Mixed Soldier/Knight’s with Traveler.
2. Rabid armor with Perplexity.
3. Mixed Apothecary/Shaman’s with Melandru.

Build depends, although heavy Chaos/Inspiration specs tend to take more of a beating when you get focused…and as a Commander, you WILL get focused. My usual “Zerg” build’s either Triforce (20/0/0/30/20) or heavy Interrupt (0/20/30/0/20 or 10/20/30/0/10), but I can drop Inspiration a little easier, due to Celestial trinkets all packing some spare Vitality.

@swinsk
Take it from me, Mesmer probably is the most hated in general. Worst part is, Mesmer was never able to perma-stealth, and a goodly number of its stealth tricks can’t be layered for crap, unless you are that up on your timing. Decoy being the exception, since it ignores Revealed. (Hell, Last Refuge should do the same, tbh.)
The funniest part, is that Mesmer’s not a terribly “faceroll” class, you need to know your biz to rock out as one. Of course, the same can be said for Thief … and is the main reason I tend to favor both classes.

@Folk in general.
As for the ongoing IS/Phase Retreat debate: you’re forgetting two small difference here.
PR was never a stun break. Also, can you honestly compare a move that requires an actual (if potentially short) c/d with one that is Initiative-based? You’re dealing with two different resource requirements, here.

I dunno … A Trait called Chaotic Interruption? Hell, that segues directly into my idea of allowing for Confusion on Interrupt being baked into the class. It’d also -in theory- fully justify CI’s placement as a GM Trait. So, the question remains as:

“What do we want to replace for this functionality?”

I (personally) would vote we remove the Cripple (plenty of ways to apply it, one of which is a RNG in the same bleeding Traitline…), swap Immob. to one of the randoms, and use Conf. as the “base.” This would also logically synergize with the fact that Chaos offers both defense and ways to apply Conditions.

However, YMMV. Let’s see some more ideas, shall we?

The reverse teleport is what should’ve honestly went on Body Shot.. Between the mobility gained from such a change, and -as Einlanzer has mentioned many times- tweaking V. Shot to work as a proper source of dps, we’d finally have a “complete” MH Pistol/Dualgun spread.
Also, yes: OH Pistol is just fine as-is. Hell, it’s pretty beastmode in the right hands.

They could function like hair or nails do for mammals: only the core section of said bit is still “alive.” For that matter, precisely how much did the Tree emulate pain response in Sylvari?

(Pardon me, but this rather needs to be said …)

You know. As someone whose main profs are Mesmer and Thief, I am growing a wee bit cross, RE: the idea [which some possess] that Mesmers are some kind of “favourite” profession. Heck, look at the recent Mesmer buffs – mainly to Mantras, which many Mes players would tell you are probably the most lacking skills in the entire profession.

Now, could we stick with the main agenda here, namely working to keep Thief as a functional profession? Thanks.

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

As a P/P thief main, I welcome these changes.

Adapt.

You know me, bro – another Gunslinger. Here’s the problem, however:

• There’re only so many times that major class Traits or functions can be “shaved” down, and one can adapt to it. I’m sure we both can agree that certain of those changes limit Thief mobility in general, which definitely hurts a Gunslinger spec. Init regen rates, I’ll need to faff about with – they might even out in the end. HtC, I just think needs a bit of extra something added; if not control over its path, then mayhap some condi-clear.
  (It’s honestly past time that SA was no longer the “major” condi-clear method … that honestly makes no sense, if one’s supposed to be able to run stealth or evade, as they see fit. /shrug)

Although, I could merely be biased, considering that I pretty much mainline Mesmer/Thief, then Elementalist – all of whom have definitely had their ups and downs.

Here, mods … please look at the pretty butterflies.
Mind Trick’d!

Now, about that thread sticky … not a problem, now is it?

You can’t get combined with IoJ, silly Tongku. That’d ruin our planned superserver:
Sorrow’s Terrace of Denravi’s Crossing

Although, if we can just poach some of IoJ’s Oceanic set …

RE: foste
Seems that way, to be honest. The problem is … nerfing anything based on pvp is rather doomed to fail. Heck, even with as aggressively as (s/t)PvP’s been pushed since launch, it’s still the most sparsely populated part of the game entire. Unfortunately, it also seems that most of the changes that would have made the game mode more enticing are summarily ignored, or at least placed squarely on the back burner.
Meanwhile the mode’s proponents cause nerfs/adjustments that backfire on the other two game modes.

Funny thing is, ~ a month or two back (non-Thief forum thread, though), I had suggested the idea of imparting some condition-drop options to the Acrobatics line. This way, Acro-heavy Thieves wouldn’t be near so penalized versus enemy conditions, compared to SA Thieves. Kaon’s idea of condition transfer abilities is an interesting one, and with some tweaking to Acro (and/or Trickery) skills could work out.

IS and Opportunist changes are arguably the most painful of the lot, tbh. Especially IS, considering that as others have mentioned, Thief is a squishy class, with long-cooldown stunbreakers. Presuming you still wish to keep Stability and Protection off the table, then something has to accommodate Thief in the defensive sector. This also ties into my next point.

• Mobility and Speed in general: Honestly, I’ve said this for a while now. You gents rather coded yourselves into a corner by changing +speed signets to be a uniform speed increase. You honestly should have kept Thief at 25%, then ranged other classes at between 15-20%. Thief would still be the speed “King,” as it were … but catchable with some CC at the right moment, or smart counter-play. As for the mobility end, zapping down IS hardly seems to be a move that keeps a Thief “mobile”

Last Refuge … is the Thief’s version of Reanimator. Unlike Reanimator, it could easily be made somewhat workable. Simply recode its Stealth to work like Mesmer Decoy/Deceptive Decoy. Either of those ignore the Revealed business, and as such, you already have a code precedent for that function to exist.

Hard to Catch, I agree, needs some form of buffing to be considered usable in Master position. There are more “controllable” Traits available at that same point-cost. Now, if it were to stunbreak/drop a condition or two … it might be workable at the c/d you’re discussing. Especially if you keep the random nature of its teleport intact.

Venoms and Traps, in general, are a fun idea that somewhat suffers in practice. Which kinda sucks, since both -tuned to be a bit less unwieldy/selfish- could open up great options for Thieves in team play.

Failing that, one could go for more … subdued glow effects. Nightmare should evoke it’s namesake, dark and sinister. Let the Warden EQ/standard Sylvari armours have brighter glow aspects, it makes sense for the “noble, do-gooder” mindset they’re typically presented with.

Hell, perfection would be selectable glow ranges on Sylvari armours, period. But, I can’t say as I hold out much hope of such a thing, stylish though it would be.

I’ve always figured that they might age like trees. As such, it’d then be possible to pull off centuries, if not millennia. I could, however, be absolutely wrong. If I’m right, it’d give the game a “long-lived” race … and most RPGs tend to have at least one of those.
/shrug

I’ll be honest … since this League business, I’ve honestly only WvWed for a bit on reset nights. Although, that could be the accumulated boredom of power-boosting 6 level 80s, and still working on my other classes (Guard 68/Warr 20).
Past that, I do wonder if our guys are worn out from that throwdown last week. Hell, what I saw on reset night’s pretty standard for “Big Bro.” So, how is it, we defeated SF last run-in, but we’re getting creamed now? Or am I missing something, RE: overall coverage?
Meh. I should actually make it into a Fight Night, it’s been months … might reignite my amusement with GW2.

I suppose I’d better toss a few ideas in the mix.

1.) RE: Mesmer condition pressure.
I’ve said for some time now, that an interesting change could be to alter Mental
Torment to apply the Torment condition in lieu of a straight DPS increase. This
would shift Mind Wrack more towards being a Shatter usable for all types of
Mesmer.
Also, is it terribly impossible to alter or add a Trait that allows for Confusion on
Interrupt? This serves two purposes: 1.) It allows for the modification of the much-
maligned Runes of Perplexity into a Confusion-booster, instead of a Confusion
applier. 2.) It would also grant a bit more controllable condition pressure to
Mesmer condition builds. As it is now, Confusion is the only directly controllable
Condition that we can apply – the rest are random, (or crit-derived, in the case of
Bleeds via Sharper Images Trait.)
Winds of Chaos. Yes, that Vuln needs to go away. Its replacement honestly
doesn’t even need to be a “damaging” Condition, merely something that at least
synchronizes with Condition Damage in general. And as we both know, Vuln merely
strengthens Power damage.

My last idea goes with the dual nature of Mesmer as a Profession in general. Namely, that it would be interesting to see skills that have the inverse function of some of our pre-existing abilities. For example:

Teleport Error – This ability would teleport your enemy away in a random.
direction. Consider it a Manipulation, and the logical inverse of Blink.
Chronal Inversion – Three words. Inverse. Time. Warp. (Seriously, a “Slow Time”
technique not only makes logical sense, but could open up some very interesting
group combat tactics.)

I’m going to leave it alone at this point, since there are plenty more Mesmer players with interesting ideas. Thanks for your time and willingness to communicate.

I’d not say that. We’ve got ~12-13 hours left in this matchup. It’s highly improbable for a GoMnomberry upset, yes … but not impossible.

Now, funny’d be if we managed to hit reset with a three-way tie.

Dungeons: Phantasm. (0/20/0/25/25)
Open World PvE/WvW: Interrupt, Hybrid Power/Condition (10/20/30/0/0 or 0/20/30/0/20)
PvP: Haven’t really bothered, at this time.

I’ll hold out for actual attack/utility/elite skills. Can’t say I was impressed with the spray, even when I originally heard about it.

I still think it should:

• Attack using a “Rain of Fire” move, like the Ascalonian Mages. (Purple, of course)
• Crapcan the Retaliation, tbh – since ANet’s been doing their level best to make Ret. suck eggs for months.
• Replace said Ret. with Burn … seriously, it’s a Torch Phantasm, this should be basic, for kitten’s sake.

Congrats. IMage now:

• Is bloody useful.
• Justifies having a frigging obscene C/D.

Also. Sorry, Menace – but IWarden is a freaking monster. The sheer amount of mindscrew one can employ, even with it untraited, is epic. Traited, that thing becomes almost obnoxiously strong. Not to mention the amount of bleeds you can toss on someone with him and/or Duelist.