Guild Wars 2

I agree with Sir Vincent and Shockwave

Initiative is fine and work how it should.
Furthermore, the most points, which the OP wrote, have nothing to do with Initiative.
They are the result of not well thought through decisions (and the thief is full of them.)
That’s why the thief have weak skills/traits and not because of Initiative.

Auesis.7301:

I love Initiative. All classes should use weapon skills in this manner, rebalanced to work with the use of 2 weapon sets and simply renamed to something like Energy, sort of like GW1 and early GW2 but one step further.

I belive that is no good idea.
CD’s are the only reason, why the other classes can’t spam one KD, fears, or aoes after another.

But maybe for GW3 ^^

They buff stealth more and more, in the last two years, but as a compensation they nerf everything else into oblivion.

So what do you think?

NeroBoron.7285:

I’m fine with the damage in my opinion the problem is that backstab hasn’t a cd. The thief goes invis again (like nearly the hole fight )and can use another backstab. And the most annoying thing: you block or dodge his attack from invis and he doesn’t get revealed. So he can just try again and again and again.

You think the cost of 6+ ini and the revealed debuff of 4 secs are no CD?
Nice story dude

But I agree, that stealth need a rework.

Super.2749:

Engineer is the weakest class in team fights on a big node in this meta.

This isn’t true!

Engis are much more useful in teamfights, than thieves.
The turrets, throwable potions + their strong and many area CC skills, are a big help for the team and make the engi to a good supporter, but thieves have, unless a few stealth skills and only short oneperson stuns nothing, that help your team.

you are bored, if you must play with the a normal CD-system.

Why dont you ask ANet for a Buff of Moa Skill #5?

Maybe something a la “Remove Chill, Cripple and Immobilize”

Arkantos.7460:

Its frustrating , ppl complaining about Thief after all theese nerfs … the only Problem is survival mechanic of the thief. Anet pushed again into stealth!

change x/p 5# into darkness field > no more permastealth

Where is the build diversity if there are 3 new GM traits with stealth based mechanic ….. we want buff for stealthless gameplay, too!
Put all stealth related traits into shadow arts;
merge the thousands useless/ by Players untouched steal traits;
and create new traits for venoms/traps/tricks and also buff UP traps/tricks/venoms to make them viable in engage fights.

/sign

But they must improve BT too, to make it to a useful trait.
Two boons, for only 5 secs, a range of 240 and this every 35 secs? No way!

Smekla.8923:

How to counter a condi classes? Use the Shadow Arts traits
The shadow arts trait clears 1 condition every 10 seconds… which is often not enough vs. condi spam builds.

+ 3 conditions from heal stealth; + 3 conditions from shadowstep

1 condition, when you enter stealth + 1 condition every 3 secs, while in stealth.

The description is wrong.

crystlviper.8523:

Black Teagan.9215:

Welcome in pvp, where glorypoints are everything, but tactic, teamwork and intelligent gameplay means nothing, as long as they can run in their little zergs and think they are great.

This is so true it hurts

Sry dude, but after 7285 sPvP games, I have ever seen this and you need many luck, if you want play with intelligent players. :/

Welcome in pvp, where glorypoints are everything, but tactic, teamwork and intelligent gameplay means nothing, as long as they can run in their little zergs and think they are great.

FeelsAlright.5860:

Black Teagan.9215:

Yes this trait need a buff.
HtC could have a stunbreaker, short stability of 2 or 3 secs and maybe a bigger range, but pls no stealth.

Acrobatic have already too much stealthtraits and dont need more.

Acrobatics has 1 stealth skill… and its a falling damage trait. If Anet is insistent on this skill teleporting it should give stealth so they can’t immediately jump on you. Giving something like vigor would be bad because the trait line already has enough. Stability is also required just because of the amount of stuns in this game. I can’t recall the amount of times I use my stun break to get out of a fear only to be chain feared after that. Or use it to get out of a hammer CC chain only to get cc’d again.

Acrobatic has 3 Stealthtraits:

-Descent of Shadows
-Fleet Shadow
-Assassin’s Equilibrium

Descent of Shadows is fine, but fits better in SA

Fleet Shadow and Assassin’s Equilibrium need stealth to work, but not every build or thief use stealth and their effects are weak.

Thieves have no traitlines, which support stealthless builds and the whole acrobatic traitline is worse, than the T1 traits in SA.
Feline Grace is the only reason for Acrobatic.

Yes this trait need a buff.
HtC could have a stunbreaker, short stability of 2 or 3 secs and maybe a bigger range, but pls no stealth.

Acrobatic have already too much stealthtraits and dont need more.

I think mesmers need no big nerfs.
Only PU Mesmer, but their problem is stealth.

Leeto.1570:

As i said before i have no problems dealing with thiefs in 1v1s or whatever, but they bring such problems in competetive PVP that no other class does.

Well, what do you think then about CondiBunker Engis or “OneShot”-Riflewarriors?
I am interested in your opinion.

Supreme.4051:

I like when someone gets killed by a thief it’s “l2p” but when a thief gets killed they are “underpowered” or other class is “OP”.

Funny, I read always the other thing.

If I kill someone, than I’m OP, but if I die than I’m a noob.
And sometimes I hear both, from the same person.

PS: Have you ever realize how small the area of BP is?
Every melee weapon have a longer range than the radius of BP and nobody force you to stay in their field. And no, I dont talk about dodges, I mean walk or run out of it.

djooceboxblast.9876:

Increase initiative cost on Infiltrator’s Arrow. This would be a start to fixing the mobility problem that thieves currently bring to conquest.

I believe you mean, it’s just another step to make the thief to a class that can nothing better, than other classes.

“Oh, the thief is faster, than my class. They need a nerf.”
“Oh, the thief deals more dmg, than my class. They need a nerf.”
“Oh, the thief is stronger against a special class, than me. They need a nerf.”

There is already an endless list of this, but will this nerf suggestions ever stops?
I dont think so.

Varonth.5830:

Yes, thief does need a redesign. The iniative system doesn’t work, and it will never work.
[…]

Thieves need a redesign, but I cant say, that this is necessary because the Ini system.

The Initiative system works good.
The problem is, that many mechanics, like stealth or evade, are part of the weaponskills should replaced or removed from that skills.

But as long as the thieves have a low HP, no deffense and are heavily dependent from this mechanics, this isn’t possible.

But also, if they remove the Initiative, would that change nothing at the other problems, which thieves have. The most thieftraits and -skills are underpower or just bad e.g. Venoms, Traps, Support or boonsteal.
(BT is a joke, in relation to Shattered Concentration or Arcane Thievery + Master of Manipulation)

Also have thieves no traitlines, which support non-stealth builds or more build varity outside of stealth. Look into Acrobatic, there is nothing for them, unless Feline Grace, but many traits for stealthbuilds or which can easy replaced by SA traits.

@Leeto
If its so difficult for you to change your strategy, depending on the class, then should you train and overthinking your playstyle.
Every class need another tactic, if you want to win against them. Spiker and zerg vs 1 fights are not inclusive.
MMO’s dont make any difference to strategy games, in this point.

I would never fight against a Mesmer or Ranger, with the same tactic, that I use against Guardians or Eles, especially because every class, have many different builds, which they can use.

It’s your task to find out, which builds the other use and then exploit their weakpoints, but if you or the others get scared (, just because you see a thief,) and forget your task, then is that your problem and have nothing to do with thieves.

PS: I know you wrote, you have no problem with thieves.

The thief destroy the PvP or the PvP destroy the thieves!?

Thieves are a very broken class, not only in stealth, also in steal, venoms, traps, mobility, support and general survivability, and this since day one.

Sunshine.5014:

Fungalfoot.7213:

I won’t argue that stealth isn’t broken because it is but overall thieves really aren’t that great. The reason why thieves have to rely on these cheap tactics is because it’s the only way they can accomplish anything. Remove it from them and you pretty much destroy the entire class.

Is it a poorly designed class then? Yes, I’d argue so. That said, until ArenaNet gets around to remaking thieves I can’t help but think that any drastical nerfs to them would be uncalled for. I get that it’s frustrating and unfair and I’m definitely not trying to play the role of thief apologist here but after trying their other options myself I fully understand why they rely on this cheese.

Thanks for your understanding! I also agree with you that it’s broken, and if we nerf it without compensation, it sucks for thieves. Thieves are forced to play burst because their sustaining options aren’t that good. There are a few options to tone down the toxic insta gib from stealth:

1) reduce the damage, but add a minor cc condition to it, for example Cripple.
2) reduce the damage, but make it regenerate 2 initiatives on hit
3) reduce the damage greatly, and add multiple stacks of bleeding instead.

The point is to make it much less likely to use the cheap tactics of insta-gib from stealth.

My suggestion:

4)

1. Slight decrease dmg of all daggerskills (I think ~20% would fits good.)
2. Change coeffizienz vom BS from 2.4 to 1.8.
3. Increase attackspeed of all skills by ~35%

Thieves, who want to do 13k dmg with BS in pvp, must play a fullzerkerbuild and need 20 might stacks. When they do this, then is this a “all or nothing” maneuver, die or dodge and kill them.

PS: A complete useless traitline, and very many broken coremechanics are toxic too, but nobody cares about it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

^ Doesn’t change the fact that the nerf that Warriors got are buffs for Thieves.

What a bullkitten.

Since when is a nerf for one class, a buff for all other classes?

That would mean, that thieves are now stronger against every class, therefore Ele,Mesmer,Ranger,etc. just because the warrior gets a nerf.

And this is not true and a stupid way of thinking.

@BobbyT

You (and ANet) forget one thing: The Thieves Guild is now useable underweater.
The only good thief change in trhis patch.

muscarine.5136:

Was hoping for a venom rework but then again it was never mentionned to start with.

They wont change or buff the venoms, as long as Venomous Aura keep untouched.

My dmg is slightly increased

Which buffs? I see only nerfs or bugfixes.

A class with a so bad, broken and weak traitline, like acrobatic, cant be “OP”.

Oh and another thing:
The title says “thief is OP”, but you wrote about stealth. Make up your mind.

Sry dude, but there were a big tumour and that’s was left, after they remove it.

I think, the thief belong to the weakest classes.
Full Dmg builds are the best and the only specialisation, which they have, and stealth their only “deffense”.

Outside of that, the thief can nothing, what other classes cant do better.
You could remove everything, unless these two things, but you wont see any differents.

But the biggest reason, why I think the thief is one of the weakest classes, is stealth and their dependence from it.
Before the headstart, stealth was already a bad designed mechanic, with a too high access and too many traits, which it need.
There’s nothing happening, the things have just become worse.
Counter stealth and you counter the whole class. It’s as broken as AR, but have the contrary effect.
As long as stealth owns >90% of all survivalskills/-traits, keep so broken and unbalanced how it is, while the thief is dependence from it, and the last two traitlines keep weak and can easily replaced by SA or a weapon, these class will never be good, balanced or get buffs, just more nerfs and die further in this game.

Erzian.5218:

[…]

Weakest =!= Weak.

Don’t you know the different between an Adjective and an Absolut?

SaintSnow.6593:

Oh and as powerful as steal is now, hey at least it doesn’t crit anymore right?

The should change that, for PvE

vincecontix.1264:

Thiefs aren’t that strong and are pretty easy to deal with you just need to use you brain instead of button mashing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPbG1TCNxVY

Not so dusty!
Yes, this is a warrior, who I called good and dont play, how the many, many ranger pets in heavy armor, which called himself warrior.

I love skyhammers and I think its one of the best maps in pvp.
That you need a sharp eye, sharp ears and good reflexes, make this map to a challenge and this is great, especially with this many plains

Only the cannon could be a little too strong and the platform with the cannon need a few more walls, but else perfect.

Oh gawd, I kitten oneself, I love your exaggeration. XD

Neurophen.9738:

What’s easier, making a lot of small tweaks to many classes, or making adjustments to one class?

Neurophen.9738:

Depending on spec thieves regain initiative at different rates, how can you properly balance that? There’s too many variables.

1. Easier isn’t better. If you really think that, than dont you know what balance mean and all your “balance” threads are unfounded and only for your own, personal advantages.

2.All Thieves regenerate 1 Ini/s. Only a few traits/skills increase the inireg by max one ini every 10s and their function is how the “lower cd by 20%” traits from the other classes.

PP:

1.A defenseless class with very low support skills, without high dmg, to compensate that, were useless and never used.

2. Offhand pistol have a good interrupt. And!?
The daze isn’t long enough to control others and this skill is expensive. The same could do mesmers in GW1 and nobody disturbed it.
The same and much better in GW2, can do this warriors and engis

3.

1. Do you think they have the Initiative just for fun?
2. Thieves cant spam while in stealth. One hit and they are visible again or they waste their Ini.
3. To balance this system, have every weaponskill a low variable/coefficient .

PS: The same answer here: The Initiative is a cooldown system.

DanzelOPP.5068:

Thieves aren’t op but they have some bullkitten mindless skills.
Heart seeker for example…

What do you mean with “some”?
Nearly the half of all traits and skills are terrible and in the most cases weak or useless and the rest is half broken, half fine.

HS:
I think, they should take out 30% of the dmg from the “Life >50%” part and put 25% into the “Life < 25%” part.

jihm.2315:

Virtues have been said to help balance the guardian; for example, they have a lower base health than the warrior profession but compensate for this with their higher health regeneration granted by Virtue of Resolve

lol thats a lie warrior has more health and more regeneration

Congratulations!

You found a good example for the bad and destroyed classbalance of this game. But this happen, if they try to balance 3 different gamemodes, every with his own rules and Dis/Advantages, at the same time.

The same happen in GW1 for a long time, before they accept, that they cant control it. And GW1 have much more skills than GW2.

The only condition problem, that this game have is, that they dont balance separate for every mode.

kirito.4138:

don’t forget the steals from pets/minions!

Maybe steal should steal gold instead, but only if target dies =]

No way, then would they criticize, that the thief is a thief. :P

PS: I dont forget the steals from the pets/minions, but I wont talk about them, because not every class can use them and their items are very rare in use.

But I would like it, if ANet add more items to every class, that can be stolen.

Oh gawd, not another “thieves are OP” thread. -.-

Why do you think have steal a cd of 35 secs?
Nevertheless steal is weak, also with the items.
Every other class have a lower cd on their classskills, than thieves and the most classes have more than one and much better traits for it.

BTW: Why do you write that steal is “unbalanced”, if you talk about a 10/xx/xx/xx/30
thief?

Shall we now discuss about steal or about a thief with 30 Points in Trickery + Sleight of Hand? We cant both, at the same time.

Eli.4653:

Overall, theres a reason many pvpers see thieves push far almost every game. They can 1v1 most classes because the other person cannot counterplay, regardless of skill level. And as stated in the beginning of this post, the player who plays better should win.

I’m happy, that you wrote this.
Yes, the better player should win and in the most cases happen this.

If you have problems to counter these items, than should you look on yourself and find the mistakes, which you do.

I play, beside my thief, five other classes (all except Ele and Engi) and the most thieves or more, the most players are freekills for me, because they cant play and dont know what they must do or how to counter other classes or their skills.
But that doesn’t wonder me, as long the most people run, with metabuilds, in zergs and use always the same tactic.(=spam one skill after another)

As I read your text, I saw exactly that what I wrote before.

1 vs 1

Whirling Axe -> Dodge, or just walk away from it.

Healing Spring -> Add only 8 secs of reg. and the thief must stay in to remove conditions, which means the thief is a big target for your bows and cannot attack you.

Ectoplasma -> Who cares, 5 secs are nothing and Mesmer have so many skills against boons.

Throw Gunk-> Good dmg/effect, in a very small area, but only if the thief can hold you in, on the other hand a very good way to break their stealth.

Mace Head Crack-> A very dangerous skill, but guardians have enough skills to dodge, block or break this.

Ice Shard Stab-> For me, the only good items beside WA, which thieves have and very dangerous, if you have nothing that remove conditions.
But with your 20 weapon- + utilityskills, it shouldn’t have big influence.

Skull Fear-> Strong, but only against near enemiey. That mean, the long execution time, give you enough time, for a CC and make them very invulnerable for directdmg.

Blinding Tuft-> Helpful for stealthbuilds, lesser for Non-stealth builds.

EDIT: Thx Narcarsis, I see now I forget one Point in Whirling Axe.
EDIT2 in Healing Spring: Do you understand it now?

I cant wait to see, how Domination Mesmers will control the PvP/WvW. -.-

And that thieves are forced to use this bad designed mechanic (stealth) more and more is simple laughable.

What were you thinking ANet, as you created Assassin’s Equilibrium?
1 sec stability for revealed yourself? Nobody will give it an honest try. -.-

Do you use Vengeance before?

If yes, then read the description and you have your answer.

When I’m in a good mood:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu3mQUABwp0

When I’m in a bad mood:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i3Aa9NlxCk

I see no other way, as a complete rework of stealth and revealed time.

Stealth is in every game one of the strongest mechanics, but have features to restrict it.
Not so in GW2: The access to stealth is easy, cheap and the duration and revealed time to short to let it be more, than a simple spamskill, while these things make it stronger, than necessary.

I agree with people, who want more counter against stealth, but at first let us fix this broken and bad balanced mechanic and classes, which are severely restricted and/or nearly undefeatable by stealth, before we do the wrong things.

Thieves are no renamed Assassins.
Their original name was “Damage Dealer” and were renamed to thief because it sounds better.

Dont ask me why they do this, but except dmg is there nothing what they can do better than other classes. :/

Wow, I must write: The thief is really bad. So many miscalculated actions, that it wonders me, why the fights are so long.

@OP
The access to stealth is no problem, its stealth.

The only problem, that the hammer have is the stun from the burstskill and should replace by daze.

I agree with the OP.
The class mechanic is no real steal, it more a “push that button and you get an item” skill and nothing more.

Especially BT, is a joke and a very weak mastertrait.
20 points for a 240 range trait, which steals only two boons, with a duration of max 5 secs?
Every mesmer can do this better and more often.

Venoms:
Venomous Aura, a grandmaster trait, which make the venoms completely useless, if you dont play with it, and the reason, why they are weak.

The same with the traps.
They are weak too and I saw only 5 persons, who use them since the headstart.

But the worst thing is, that the whole class is build around stealth, but thieves are not always invisible, they are fast and clever and hide themself only, if they need it and not every 3-4 secs.

alchemyst.2165:

Solution to your problems:
Don’t die in PvE
If you’re dying in a non-dungeon pve environment then you’ve got problems

His “skill” is not part of this thread.

BTT:
For PvE: The Downed Skills are very weak.
Shadowsteps and stealth are useless, because the most enemies waiting until you are visible again and the range of SS are too short to escape.

Power
Precision
Faster Attack Speed

Zacchary.6183:

If you kill them you are OP. That is how it works.

And, if we die, they call us noobs.