Guild Wars 2

Introp.8465:

Black Teagan.9215:

Introp.8465:

Black Teagan.9215:

If you want to summary the thiefclass in one sentence: “Kill them immediately or they kill you.”

…Or you stealth and disengage more like it.

I play complete without stealth, also if it much harder

evade spamming thiefs are good example of balance as well. spend 80% in evades, 20% spamming button 2

Dont wrote bad about a class, who use a traitline with terrible condition remove, more terrible stunbreaker and only 3 useful traits in the whole traitline.

SA is much stronger, cheaper and more useful, than Acrobatic.

Introp.8465:

Black Teagan.9215:

If you want to summary the thiefclass in one sentence: “Kill them immediately or they kill you.”

…Or you stealth and disengage more like it.

I play complete without stealth, also if it much harder

If you want to summary the thiefclass in one sentence: “Kill them immediately or they kill you.”

phaeris.7604:

I used to play a thief. The ability to go invisible every 4 seconds and the ability to blind constantly and teleport is a pretty good defence.

A move which requires no setup or cast time shouldn’t hit for that much. Much less be spammable, and have a leap attached.

It allows bad thieves to be extremely dangerous when they add into fight. kitten kitten !! i’ll just spam button 2 as i enter this fight!, oh look! i’ve done 12k damage in 3 hits!

It’s no wonder you see so many thieves in WvW and so few classes like Ele’s roaming away from the blob.

Oh yes, the stealth!
A curse and bless at the same time.
One of the main reason why thieves get no buffs and count as OP, on the other hand the only thing that hold thieves in this game, otherwise they would die out. :/

Form.8741:

I repeat, stop complaining about thief. Thief damage has been nerfed infinitely, their survivability and evades have been nerfed, their stunbreaks have been nerfed, everything about thief has been nerfed except a minimal improvement in base init regen. EVERYTHING.

Nope, that isn’t correct. You forget the increased duration of the venom from the Dagger AA

Singel target skills do always more dmg, against one person, than the skills, which hit more than one person. While Skills with an AE-Effect are stronger against groups, than single target skills.

I believe you know that.
But do you know, that the dmg is always inversely proportional to the deff, which the class have and the numbers of targets, the weapon can hit?

Calculate Part 1)
Hs deals more dmg, than skills like HB or CE, because its can hit only one person and not 3 or 5, incl. that thieves have not one deffskills or -buffs, in marked contrast to every other class in this game, why this must compensate throught more dmg.

[—Every class have an intern balance between dmg and deff.
The lesser max. targets, the higher the dmg for the targets the weapon can hit.
The lower the deff of the class, the higher is the dmg output of the class.—]

Calculate Part 2)
But, we have no (real) cooldowns and the inisystem allowed us to use the same skill more, than one time every few secs, because of this have every thief weaponskill have a low coefficient, which make the skills weaker, than the attacks from other classes
(, inclusive the other disadvantages of an Inisystem).
E.g. Heartseeker (<25% Life) do the same dmg like eviscerate on adrenalinlvl 1.

As long as we not have the same deffense and (self-)support, like the other classes, I see no reason to nerf our dmg on the same lvl like the other classes, especially if it comes from a single target weapon and skill.

Introp.8465:

ens.9854:

BlackBeard.2873:

ens.9854:

Somebody has severely underestimated the damage a single churning earth can do….

Churning earth is very situational to use, and should never be used against a thief who can easily dodge/blind/interrupt you after getting 3s of free dps.

Heartseeker is very situational to use, and should never be used against anyone who can easily defend themselves in anyway after getting guaranteed shots against a thief who isn’t dodging or blinding.

Seriously, churning earth can easily hit for 15k PER target once you count the bleeds… Just pointing out how absurd the comparison is

Edit: here’s a hint—auto attack chain does more DPS than heartseeker

1st. no one ever will get hit by churning earth
2nd. Hs is click – auto lands and targets, you dont need to actually manually walk beside target, keep close distance to hit
3rd. look at skill tooltip lol, hs does more damage at any stage
4th. thief spam hs left and right if they think they have killing blow or have a way to disengage after. Imagine you are ele, and thief runs to you, presses 2 2 2 2 2 (less or more) and you die. Such skill involved right?
5th how on earth you can defend again pure damage burst spam? you sure wont outdamage that, only way is to use cc, if you have it and manage to land it. (keep in mind hs spam speed)

1st: highly improbable
2nd: A finisher must have a high chance to hit the target, otherwise were it no finisher.
3rd: The same: finisher skill(!) They were complete useless would they deal the same or less dmg than AAs.
4th: You know, that it gives blocks, dodges, invulnerability, knockbacks, etc.?
I can counterburst the burst thieves, incl. PW Thieves, you not?
5th: Gaurdians, Mesmer and Engis have a much better burstdmg, than thieves and this in a big area.

6k Dmg is fine for a berserker, who attack another berserker.

As a single target melee skill, this skill have to be a little stronger, than the area attacks from the other classes. E.g. Ele can do 4k dmg/s with Lava Font on up to 5 targets or 5x over 16k with Churning Earth or warriors with 3x over 12k in 3s with HB.

Karolis.4261:

Thief OP plz nurf.

Pls nerf movement, running is to OP on thieves.

@MrForz
You are one of the few people in this forum, who understand, how the state of these class is.

Go PvE, there are less than 5% thieves and HS can’t be so strong, if you hold out 7 hits, especially for a single target skill.

I play GW2 on a solar-powered graphics calculator , use a 10 years old tamagotchi to control my char and an old mobiletelephone for my skills.

calavel.6249:

I always felt this skill was a bit… problematic.
AoE pulsing stealth field + healing is a pretty powerful tool.
On the other hand, it puts up a giant sign saying “enemy AoE here plz!”

Plopping down fields and then dancing around inside them is generally not what the thief excels at IMO. Thieves need room to work, they need to dodge or avoid as many spikes as possible beacuse they have low health and medium armor. You can’t afford to get pinned down, but that’s exactly what SR does.

So… I thought maybe SR would be better as an elite (maybe 90s CD) with an instant effect (or a non-visible field), making it more of a pop&run skill like BP, or at least less obvious.

http://youtu.be/H07zYvkNYL8

To change SR into a eliteskill dont make it better or is a buff, its a nerf of one of the few good skills, which thieves have.

Aza.2105:

Invisibility is bad for any competitive game.

It’s not, as long as it cant use to much.

Thief: 60% Nerfs, 35% Bugfixes, 5% Buffs.

Btw: I cant remind me that, multiple Choking Gas fields work together. Only one after another.

Stealth will never be fair and more than a spam mechanic, as long as it dont get a complete rework.
In the duration of stealth and revealed and in the numbers of skills, which trigger stealth.

To add just a few more breaker to stealth will change nothing, because mesmers do not must attack to inflict dmg, this do their illusions, while the mesmer can stay hide in stealth.

I really hope ANet make plans to change stealth and buff the thief, because every build without stealth is nearly unplayable and it makes no funny to be forced to play with stealth, if you want to good dmg, remove conditions, heal yourself, reduce dmg or generally survive with this class.

ParadoX.3124:

Thief only need nerf on the skill 3 on sword, “Oh look at me 2- 3-f1-3- dodge-2-3 f1-3 dodge wtf”

How much can you use Steal?

1. Thief
2. Ele
3. Ranger

NinjaEd.3946:

BT is nice but if the idea was to play dirty and steal boons from enemies and share with allies, why is it so limited? […]

Thank you, that’s what I (partly) mean.
When I play my thief, I want to be a thief, a class with high mobility, who demoralized the enemy and use their strength against them, and not an alternative version of a warrior, who need nothing except pure dmg.

That’s what I miss here.

I would agree, if someone said stealth need a rework, but these 1000 cry threads, with always the same content, are really annoying.

I play 6 classes incl. a 99,95% stealthless thief and I have no problems to counter stealthbuilds.

So what does that mean? Are these 6 Classes OP or the others just to bad?

@OP
Is AA not enough to know, where they are and if you hit them?

Sry, but i must laugh, if I hear that you dont like the nerfs in your 5 point (perma-)vigor traits.

In comparison with thieves is this nerf weak.

Thieves need 30-35 traitpoints, to have 100% uptime vigor, but they got the nerf, a bigger nerf, than the ele now.
So sry if I say: I can’t complain!

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The whole Trickery line is OP (except Instinctual Response) but I’m not complaining. IMO, all trait line should make the Thief profession OP in some ways because we’re specialist, and so far, in dealing as much damage as possible.

I dont think so.
In my eyes is Trickery one of the best balanced traitlines.
When you search an OP traitline, than look on SA (in combination with stealth), for an UP traitline Acrobatic.

Interceptor.2653:

I am always conflicted when I see someone ragging on Bountiful Theft.

I want to correct them, because BT has a really fast recharge, gives the stolen boons to nearby allies (nobody EVER seems to realize this), also gives Vigor (again, to allies as well), and makes Sleight of Hand a nearly-unstoppable interrupt. But I also want to keep it quiet, because BT with 30 Trickery is borderline overpowered, and the longer ANet fails to notice it, the better it is for the class.

1. Vigor is a good reason for BT, but the only one.
   In fact no reason, as long as the most class can get more/perma Vigor with only 5 traitpoints.
2. Two stealing boons are less. A mesmer can steal more and the boons run much longer.
3. BT have a areaeffect, that’s right, but it dont make it better, as long as the range keep so short.

When you want to do more dodges and steal more boons, take S/D and put the 20 traits points into a better traitline.
When you want to do more dmg while you steal the boons and support your team, take a mesmer, put 20 points in Domination and 5 in Dueling and you do more dmg and take more boons from your enemy, while you support your team better, than thieves can do it.

NyuuNeeChan.2891:

Black Teagan.9215:

Bountiful Theft isn’t so good, how you wrote it.
Especially not, if you compare it with S/D #3 and with the Skills Shattered Concentration and Arcane Thievery from the Mesmer.

This trait is too weak to be useful and a shame for the thief.

“Does not steal “stacks” of the boons; e.g. the enemy has 15 stacks of Might, your character is only going to receive 1 stack of might (unknown which individual might application/duration takes priority); if the enemy is using a boon that stacks duration, such as Protection, and has both a 3s and a 4s application of it (showing as 7 seconds total), your character will only steal the 3s or the 4s application of the boon (unknown which application/duration takes priority), not the full 7s. "( wiki).

So yes, it doesnt even remove one full stack of whatever enemy has.

Thats right, but use one time Arcane Thievery and everyone will see that Mesmers steal up to 3 Boons with the full duration, while the enemy get up to 3 conditions.

To sad, that a Non-Thief have better skills to steal than a thief.
What comes next? A guardian, who do more dmg with daggers, althought they can’t use it? :/

I wish the thief were more like a thief.

Bountiful Theft isn’t so good, how you wrote it.
Especially not, if you compare it with S/D #3 and with the Skills Shattered Concentration and Arcane Thievery from the Mesmer.

This trait is too weak to be useful and a shame for the thief class.

By the way, the traits in SA are ok. (Except the venomtraits)
The bigger problem is the high frequenzy, with the stealth can be used.

As if are Race changes are easy, 1) for the Devs and 2) for the game.

Before they can do that, they must find a way to make it compatible with the PS.

That’s right, thieves need a nerf in nerfs.

Btw “Thieves” is correct, “Thiefs” it’s not.

I dont think the Initiative, the missing cd on the weaponskills or the shadowsteps are a problem, its more the massive use of stealth and evades, what we need to survive.

Stealth can use too much and runs too short, to be counterable, while Vigor is generally too strong and give us in a way dodges for free.
And I agree that this is a big problem for both sides, Thieves and Non-Thieves.

But after all the nerfs, since the release, the thief to have reached the point when where it is impossible to nerf this things, without to make us to free kills.
What mean that a nerf in these things would destroy the complete class, while nerfs in another parts of these class, as a result that we use only more stealth and dogdes.
But how should we fix this problem, without to complete rework these class?

They need a nerf in the deffense.
A class with so many hardcounters and very strong heals isnt good for this game or the balance.

And yes, I think its better, the burstskill of the hammer should daze and not stun the victims.

hooma.9642:

see i play thief too and know how easy it is to safely overextend and kill that ele or anything whats spams skills in the groupfight from a more defensiv position than i have. after i downed, killed or forced him to retread i can return to my position or force more ppl out of the group fight to assist him. all trought teleports and stealth.

why i doubt u should talk about l2p? well lets reread the bold text.

There is no different, as if I say I kill every thief with every class.
It’s dependent from you and the others and this is what I mean with l2p(^look into my last posting.)
Only because this works dont mean it works always, especially not against people with the same or higher talent, than you.

I have no problems to kill thieves, except this one who play bettter than me, but these are rare.

The thieves are not the problem, its you.

Were thieves really so “OP”, how you all always said, why dont play then everyone a thief?
I see more Engis, Mesmer and Necros in spvp, then every other class.

How Arkantos already wrote, means L2P not only to know your own class, but also to know the other class.
But these is a thing that you can not learn, if you only run in a zerg and I see a lot of zergs in spvp.
Would you follow they players with the Spectator Mode, like me in the last few month, then could you see, that more the others are the problem and not the thieves.

Thieves belong already to the worst classes in this game, but it is doubtful that you ever play a thief to understand that.

Its correct that thieves can do alot of damage, but what do you expect about a class with 0 deffensive?
But this alone is no reason to call him OP.

What is with the other classes, like Guardians, Warriors or Eles, this classes can do the nearly around the same dmg (on one target), but have much more deffensive.
Especially eles can do so much dmg, that they can kill 5 people with only one attack, but I see noone who call them OP.
Or Engis, a class with so many hard counters that you need a group before you have a chance to kill only one of them.

(It gives only one thing, where I would accept its OP and this is stealth, but this is the issue of stealth and not of the thief.)

I dont know where I should start:

Last Refuge
(You know why!)

Venoms
(Too weak and and too high CD to work alone)

Stealth
(A completly broken mechanic)

Acrobatictraitline
(No good conditionremove, very weak in relation to SA or stealth)

S/D #3
(Bad designed, worse than before the rework; no specific task and a boonsteal, that make BT useless)

Bountiful Theft and Larcenous Strike
(Boons run very short, too short; Mesmer steal better than thieves, and boons have the full duration.)

To less HP for PvE

Underwater:

No access to stealth or condition remove, except through the healskill, 1 signet.

50% of all skills dont work there

Spear #4
(Must be the stupidest skill in this game.)

Warriors and Engineers need a nerf in their deffense.
They have to many hardcounter.

Viking Jorun.5413:

RedSpectrum.1975:

That would only benefit smokescreen and black powder though right? That’s pretty specific

Hush child, we need teh buffz.

Yes, but only if the buffs make sense. This makes no sense.

Another suggestion:

When someone use stealth the player is getting invisible, but not his cloths

I think its is slight OP and a problem.
S/D have access to evade, stealth and boonsteal.
I see the problem in this set in Skill #3.
Flanking Strike is ok, but Larcenous Strike seems me to unbalanced. The main problem with LS is, the boon steal make our profession mechanic redundant and Bountiful Theft useless. The boonsteal should be part of our profession mechanic and BT and not on a weapon.
Also, that LS doing a lot of dmg while its unblockable, make it to a dmg only weapon, without a particular task, like S/P or the SB.

I wish me for LS a change, so that it do extra dmg for every boon on the target, e.g. 10%, while the base dmg is slight reduce to compensate it. I think ~25%.
This would make S/D to a strong weapon against bunker and boonsspammer like Guardians and Engineers, without to prevent other classes from using the boons
(, which was the reason for the big nerf for S/D at the oktobre 2013)

I think it’s the best to switch the BP from LR with Smoke Screen.
Smoke Screen cant trigger Revealed and it helps better against melee and projectile attacks, than BP, also if you must then trigger stealth by yourself .

The only disadvantage is that SS is a line.

• 1. This is totally absurd. ANet, have you never seen a (smoke-)bomb in RL?
• 2. Useless if you getting attack from more than one side.

When the currently classes are balanced.

Warrior idol is Chuck Norris.

That’s must be it, why so many warriors scream after Buffs.

Wasbunny.6531:

[…]

So I did a simple side by side comparison between Mesmer & Thief using only ‘on-dodge’ traits (Deceptive Evasion & Caltrops) and only dodging to kill a moving target golem.

Mesmer: About 3-5 stacks of bleed 100% up-time (90% from auto-attacking clones). Very rarely a few seconds of Cripple,Vulnerability or Weakness.

Thief : 4 stacks of bleed 100% up-time. 45+ seconds of cripple.
also 2-4 stacks of might gained as well as swiftness and endurance regeneration

[…]

Sry, but this is Bullkitten.

Caltrops add max ~20secs of cripple.
10s (while the duration) + ~10sec (through the last hit at the end of the skill).
Test it, if you don believe me.

Also is caltrops easy to see, because the big red circle on the ground and can used only one time every 30secs. This make the cripple effect weak and easy to dodge.

Thx ANet , the new interface is great and modern

aspirine.6852:

I can see the thiefs raging already with all the blind immunity.

Nope, fear immunity

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

this is working as intended.
warriors are meant to be fast.
what is the problem?

do you remember that warriors have no direct access to:
- stealth
- illusions
- death shroud
- pets
- minions
- protection, aegis

warriors are balanced and not overpowered, it has been more than a year since launch, please accept that already.

Oh god, pls not this lame argument -.-
As if every class, except warriors, have access to everything.

From a neutral point of view, it makes me sad, to see how easy warriors can run away from every class, included thieves, with just a few less trait points.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Giving elementalists a readily available way to debuff enemies with revealed would be a solid boon to the profession and introduce more build diversity.

NO!!

The only classes who should get Revealed are Ranger and Necros.
Eles have more than enough thief counters. Counters that works also against Nonstealth thieves.

Yes Shadow embrace ist “strong”, but other classes have much more anticondition skills than the thief (1(+1) Skill + 2 Traits) and no low healthpool.
e.g.
Warriors can remove 6 Conditions every 8s only with their Adrenalin, have a bigger healthpool, a lot of Blocks and Immunities and the strongest healskills in this game.

Necrotize.2974:

Hmm, I may be missing something obvious but then the traits affecting steal cd must be misleading. None of the ways I perform the 30% reduction from 30 points in trickery and the 20% of sleight of hand results in 21.5 seconds. They result in either 19.6 or 17.5.

That’s because Sleight of Hand use a different formula, than the reducion from the 30 points in trickery.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Math-on-steal-cooldown/first#post2282813

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Sleight_of_Hand

The best recharge time of steal is 21,5 secs.
Not 19,75s and especially not 17 secs.

My suggestion: Scarecrow

Everybody know, that mesmer can better steal, than thieves and this also without 20 traitpoints.
Or more specifically: Every class can do everything better than thieves, so why the question?

I disagree with all except 2.

I would change it so, the the heal /s is depending on your life.
E.g:
Active:

• Heals 4000 Points [CD 30secs]

Passive:

• 100-66% : 180 HP/s
• 66-33% : 315 HP/s
• 33- 0% : 425 HP/s

My biggest hope is, that ANet remove “+ x% crit dmg” from all gear, it destroy so much and is – in my eyes – the mainreason for the domination of the berserkerbuilds.
Also do I agree, that this game need more counter against stealth, but I would prefer instead to rework this mechanic. Longer duration but rarely usable. Because stealth was always one of the strongest mechanics in onlinegames and the need hence a corresponding counter. Either skills or another mechanic like Revealed, which is too weak.

BTW: Why is the thief so heavy addicted to stealth?
This class should be more build around mobility and akrobatic and not stealth. (why? look upward.)
In addition, Acrobatic is a traitline, that cant competitive with Shadow Arts.
Also seems me, the steal mechanic not very useful. Its to weak for a classmechanic and mesmer are currently better in stealing than thieves.

I have no problem if you set the lvlcap at 100, but the rest of the character-progression should then only continued over the traitsystem.

I hope they delete the +critdmg, because it makes the berserker to strong, and replace it with vitality or something else.