Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

In lieu of reducing damage done from bosses that’s why i proposed increasing the enrage timer by 2 minutes that allows the people using easy mode to slot more survivability gear, but also impart the importance of mechanics,

Yes, and softening the enrage timers would help certain groups, though a group would basically have to “build to the test.” It would only really help if players did buy full sets of tankier gear. If a random pug showed up with more glassy stuff then they wouldn’t see much benefit at all. If even half the group showed up glassy they’d likely be first to die and it would still wipe. I just don’t see this as an ideal solution to the “random pug shows up as they are and gives it a shot, and still wins” issue. It would make things easier in very edge cases, just not necessarily in a way that’s really needed.

your method would remove the need to use mechanics almost entirely which doesn’t teach people the mechanics as effectively it will perpetuate the need to stack in a corner and dos as much as possible.

People who intended to learn the “proper” mechanics would have to know going in what the “proper” mechanics were meant to be, and walk through them whether it was strictly necessary or not. If they go into it with that goal, then they can practice those mechanics. If they go in with the goal of just clearing easy mode ASAP, then they could do that instead, and that would be an equally positive outcome. That’s the point.

The idea on rewards is that there only needs to be one way to get certain Legendaries easy mode introduce and makes raids more accessible to new raiders but it isn’t designed as the end all be all,

But it should be. Players should not view it as a “stepping stone” to hard mode. Hard mode is not and never will be for everyone. Or rather, if hard mode ever did become “for everyone,” the people who currently like it would throw a fit, because it definitely wouldn’t be what they want out of a raid. Some people can use easy mode as a stepping stone to hard mode, but for plenty of players it will be the only raid they’ll ever want or need, so it needs to be a complete experience in and of itself. Only those who genuinely enjoy the challenge aspect that hard mode offers should have reason to go there.

But that’s the last I’m saying on that subject since this whole topic is about accessibility of raids and not rewards, if you want to start that discussion again like you have previously and get it closed in a different thread be my guest.

Again, you bring it up. You can’t just say “here’s my piece on the matter, but you’d better not reply or you’re just starting trouble.” If you don’t want rewards to be part of the discussion then don’t insist that they not be included in the easy mode.

Ohoni.6057:

In lieu of reducing damage done from bosses that’s why i proposed increasing the enrage timer by 2 minutes that allows the people using easy mode to slot more survivability gear, but also impart the importance of mechanics,

Yes, and softening the enrage timers would help certain groups, though a group would basically have to “build to the test.” It would only really help if players did buy full sets of tankier gear. If a random pug showed up with more glassy stuff then they wouldn’t see much benefit at all. If even half the group showed up glassy they’d likely be first to die and it would still wipe. I just don’t see this as an ideal solution to the “random pug shows up as they are and gives it a shot, and still wins” issue. It would make things easier in very edge cases, just not necessarily in a way that’s really needed.

your method would remove the need to use mechanics almost entirely which doesn’t teach people the mechanics as effectively it will perpetuate the need to stack in a corner and dos as much as possible.

People who intended to learn the “proper” mechanics would have to know going in what the “proper” mechanics were meant to be, and walk through them whether it was strictly necessary or not. If they go into it with that goal, then they can practice those mechanics. If they go in with the goal of just clearing easy mode ASAP, then they could do that instead, and that would be an equally positive outcome. That’s the point.

The idea on rewards is that there only needs to be one way to get certain Legendaries easy mode introduce and makes raids more accessible to new raiders but it isn’t designed as the end all be all,

But it should be. Players should not view it as a “stepping stone” to hard mode. Hard mode is not and never will be for everyone. Or rather, if hard mode ever did become “for everyone,” the people who currently like it would throw a fit, because it definitely wouldn’t be what they want out of a raid. Some people can use easy mode as a stepping stone to hard mode, but for plenty of players it will be the only raid they’ll ever want or need, so it needs to be a complete experience in and of itself. Only those who genuinely enjoy the challenge aspect that hard mode offers should have reason to go there.

But that’s the last I’m saying on that subject since this whole topic is about accessibility of raids and not rewards, if you want to start that discussion again like you have previously and get it closed in a different thread be my guest.

Again, you bring it up. You can’t just say “here’s my piece on the matter, but you’d better not reply or you’re just starting trouble.” If you don’t want rewards to be part of the discussion then don’t insist that they not be included in the easy mode.

the reason why I brought it up is that rewards are balanced around content you make content easier they get a decrease in rewards it’s simple, you are after gear not content, you want easier access to the new legendary, as shown by your statements multiple times in multiple threads. In the balancing of rewards portion of making more accessible raids i said to keep all rewards besides shard amount and core materials needed the raiders would still get the insights which is one of the very first stepping stones to crafting Legendaries, again if you make a easier version of something you need to change the rewards, i.e. You can’t get the legendary pvp back piece if you never step out of unranked.

But back on subject to lower the amount of damage done by raid mechanics would turn easy mode raids into dungeons 2.0 which is not the goal they would be there as a stepping stone teaching people the actual mechanics and consequences of the mechanics, reducing the threshold/ amount of key mechanics you need to devote people to on roles does that without allowing people to just Zerker face tank the boss in a corner, being lenient with the enrage timer really does make the raids so much easier and would allow people to play how they choose, the only real requirement would be needing a “tank” since bosses in raids go off of toughness and if there are multiple people competing in that value there will be consequences.

Again the whole design philosophy for raids was to be completely different than any open world content or any other instanced content, if you reduce the key elements that make raids more challenging too much you end up with a 10 man dungeon that won’t change the toxicity of pugs and it will be a larger scale rehash of previous content which is not the point of raids.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah and but you have to weight all consequenses before introducing things. Something that you don’t want to acknowledge even after 30 pages of discussion. You only see your point and not the consequenses the introduction might have.

Nope. I see and accept all those consequences. All changes have consequences. I just don’t see the consequences as being terribly significant when compared to the gains. Again, if you use the rule that “any negative consequences are reason enough to not do something” then they shouldn’t have made raids in the first place. You seem to believe that the positive aspects of raiding outweigh the consequences, and you may be right about that. I believe that the benefits of a viable easy mode raid would outweigh the consequences, and I may be wrong about it, but so far you’ve done nothing to convince me of that beyond insisting that you don’t like it.

The main complain is the accessibility with PUGs. PUGs are also the biggest source of toxicity in the raiding enviroment, not organised groups.

True, but like it or not, PUGs are also one of the core features of GW2, it’s a very pug-friendly game. The reason why pugs have such toxicity potential with raids is because there is such a high possibility to total failure. If an insufficient player slows you down a bit, the real jerks might pick on them, but most players would just shrug it off. If an insufficient player leads to multiple wipes, the atmosphere tends to get more hostile. Creating an environment in which negative outcomes are less severe is the best way of reducing toxicity.

PUGs will use the path of least resistance. People not running towards the circle means more DPS.
More DPS -> shorter boss fight -> less time for errors/shorter clear times
If you would try to learn the fight with a PUG in that mode, you would learn nothing valuable. Instead you would get likely flamed for doing mechanics that aren’t neccesary.

Again,
training is only as useful as you make it.

Would many pugs focus on speed clearing, taking advantage of all tools available? Sure. And they would advertise as such, and if you join such a group, you should be expected to play as such. There is nothing remotely wrong with this, if players want to play this way then they can. As I’ve said, the easy mode should function as a training option, but should definitely NOT be ONLY a training mode for hard mode. They are a true alternative, and players that intend to only play easy mode can and should be able to do so. There is nothing wrong with players playing easy mode for fun rather than training, that is a feature, not a bug.

But it will also have the capacity to train if people want that, and even pugs can advertise as “Easy mode, training run,” or however the community decides to call such a thing, in which all the players agree before going in that they ARE attempting to “play it straight” and treat all mechanics as if it were hard mode, even when they don’t strictly have to. You might not see any advantage to doing this over just barreling through hard mode, but just accept as a fact that there is a difference. Some players get overly frustrated by repeated failures, or get too stressed out by the pressure of imminent failure, and it shuts down all capacity to learn new things. Being able to go through the motions in a lower stress environment IS a healthy way for these players to train, whether that applies to you or not.

You need to tweak the mechanics so they are easier to handle while maintaining the threat.

No.

Maintaining the threat makes the entire exercise pointless. If you’re going to maintain the threat then you may as well just have the hard mode, because it would destroy any psychological benefits of having an easier mode and would satisfy no one that isn’t already satisfied by hard mode. It’s “easy mode for people that love hard mode.”

You often tell me that I shouldn’t express any opinion about hard mode raids because I am not their target audience, and my response is that I agree, I stay entirely out of hard mode raids, but I do know that I want the easy mode raid for myself and players like me. Well I’m going to say the same to you, you clearly do not understand even the basic philosophy behind what would make an easy mode raid of value, because they are so anathema to your own core values, so you seem incapable of comprehending an easy mode that would solve any of the problems it would need to solve, and instead only solve problems that don’t even need solutions.

If you’d like to continue “helping” with this situation, then at least sit back and take some time to better understand what the problems are, before insisting that you know the solutions. At the risk of “triggering” anyone, stop “raidersplaining” the situation.

In lieu of reducing damage done from bosses that’s why i proposed increasing the enrage timer by 2 minutes that allows the people using easy mode to slot more survivability gear, but also impart the importance of mechanics, your method would remove the need to use mechanics almost entirely which doesn’t teach people the mechanics as effectively it will perpetuate the need to stack in a corner and dos as much as possible.

The idea on rewards is that there only needs to be one way to get certain Legendaries easy mode introduce and makes raids more accessible to new raiders but it isn’t designed as the end all be all, the legendary armor provides motive to do the regular Raids and there is nothing wrong with that. But that’s the last I’m saying on that subject since this whole topic is about accessibility of raids and not rewards, if you want to start that discussion again like you have previously and get it closed in a different thread be my guest.

Hypairion.9210:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

If an easier difficulty is ever needed which is highly unlikely due to the room for error already proven with raids I propose this.

Proposed “easy mode” raid idea, these tweaks if used as a separate easy mode would allow people to learn mechanics with less pressure and more room for error, as well as providing them with rewards.

Increase enrage timers by 2 minute on all bosses,

VG
Reduce amount of people needed for Green circles to two

Reduce the amount of Seekers spawned

Gorsival

Reduce the amount of Orbs

Have fewer enraged spirits on updraft phases

Sabbatha

I’m not sure what to tweak this boss is almost purely mechanic based possibly reduce the amount of Flak, and reduce the red bombs.

Second wing I have only done Slothazor so I will only provide suggestions for his fight for wing 2.

Reduce the amount of Slubs and amount of Mushrooms consumed to clear path.

With these Tweaks for an easier mode provide 3/4 the amount of Magnetite shards rewarded for phased wipes, 1/2 as many for boss clears, keep ascended item drops both generic and special skins as they are for both modes, have legendary Insights as completion rewards, remove Legendary armor ingredients like Spirit Silk, and other Boss specific ingredients.

Interesting post, most realistic proposal than some others, if an easy mode should be made. I don’t agree with all, but at least there is room for discussion.

The wipe mechanisms are still there, so people can still learn something. But I’m sure some other will disagree with you just for this very idea.

For the reward, I’m not against some shards, but I think the cap should be lower than the normal mode (40 or 50 for example). Titles and succès should stay exclusive.
And I’m not sure about the insights things too. But at least keeping key component of Legendary Armor in normal raid would motivate people.

It was thrown together pretty hastily I will admit I edited twice, the main point of the proposal is to not completely remove any mechanics so as to show the people using it how the raids should operate at a reduced level, the rewards would need a better looking at mostly the currency caps and such while the normal loot drops should be left how they are maybe decreasing the Special boss specific skins drop chance, the insights aren’t a huge issues in my eyes, I left those in the proposal due to most people claiming those cause people to not get picked up in normal raid modes there by increasing accessibility.

If an easier difficulty is ever needed which is highly unlikely due to the room for error already proven with raids I propose this.

Proposed “easy mode” raid idea, these tweaks if used as a separate easy mode would allow people to learn mechanics with less pressure and more room for error, as well as providing them with rewards.

Increase enrage timers by 2 minute on all bosses,

VG
Reduce amount of people needed for Green circles to two

Reduce the amount of Seekers spawned

Gorsival

Reduce the amount of Orbs

Have fewer enraged spirits on updraft phases

Sabbatha

I’m not sure what to tweak this boss is almost purely mechanic based possibly reduce the amount of Flak, and reduce the red bombs.

Second wing I have only done Slothazor so I will only provide suggestions for his fight for wing 2.

Reduce the amount of Slubs and amount of Mushrooms consumed to clear path.

With these Tweaks for an easier mode provide 3/4 the amount of Magnetite shards rewarded for phased wipes, 1/2 as many for boss clears, keep ascended item drops both generic and special skins as they are for both modes, have legendary Insights as completion rewards, remove Legendary armor ingredients like Spirit Silk, and other Boss specific ingredients.

Uhmm isn’t that what gyros are for? Like Bulwark allies take 50% reduced damage

bravoart.5308:

How to make raids more accessible?

Get rid of the elitist raiding community.
It’s honestly the only way it’s going to happen.

More people would be willing to try and fail if ANet didn’t make the mistake of saying that you needed full ascended gear to participate 6+ months ago.

Now the prejudice has stuck and you can’t set food inside without people gatekeeping because they want their raids to be easy, and simultaneously call you lazy for not having ascended gear.

The PUG community is separate from the actual raiding community most established raiding guilds and groups don’t require ascended. There are quite a few people in the forums that offer to teach new players the raids so that they have a better chance of completing them and getting into other raids, just don’t group with the people asking for so and so requirements and get kittened if they find out you lied.

Normally I go with Dom/Insp/Chrono for VG and Sloth, and Illu/Insp/Chrono for everything else

Sun Lian.4075:

Oh my god would you stop thinking I’m a total noob that has never even joined a raiding group before..

This is what I mean, to you people it’s either you’ve got no idea what you’re doing otherwise you would’ve completed raids already, or you’re already there because you worked really hard. In between that doesn’t exist.

No.. I’m someone that knows what their doing, I’ve already joined quite some training groups and seen enough videos and stuff but I still get denied from the real groups because it’s incredibly elitist.
1 little thing off “meta” and you’re kicked, that’s how bad the end game is in gw2, not just raids. And that’s just a fact.

Interesting when I play on a Thief(one of the least meta raid classes in the whole game) and didn’t start raiding till a few months after raids released, you have to find a group of people willing to accept you, but the toxicity you bring to the forum because of pugs and not actual organized raiders, (which there is a big difference.) is just very astounding and I am glad I haven’t had to raid with someone with your attitude. If you are as good as you claim you should have no problem finding a reliable group to raid with.

I main Thief and right now due to the cancer prevalent throughout all classes Mesmers are all that bad yes they could use minor tweaks but gutting two very competitive traits would be bad form. I’m just glad we are out of the bunker Mesmer meta that was horrible at least now I have a chance of killing Mesmers again

I don’t ever want to see the on interrupt sigils in pvp or the perplex runes, but those are very tame compared to a lot of the built in cancer classes have in their traits and skills.

Shinzan.2908:

Miellyn.6847:

So we can leave it in the current form and end this ‘discussion’? Raids are pugable.

Maybe we need to work out the definition of pugable here. Like, can I log in now, put up an LFG, just grab the first random people that join, and still have a reasonably good chance of finishing the raid in less than an hour?

Yes off the players are setup for the raids and know the mechanics, pug just means pick up group, it is on the players to be set up and have knowledge of the content they want to play, from the very inception of raids they were designed to be a lot more challenging than any other content in gw2, that inherently means there will be effort needed by players besides PHIW. The “casual” player was never the intended audience for raids so why should raids be catered to them? Raids have been more than a success by all information provided by Anet so why do they have to be changed for a few people that were never intended to be enticed by them?

Exuberance vs Scrapper? Most likely will be using Mauraders with Zerker weaps and trinks. I use S/D just not sure which would be more beneficial

I wouldnt say this game is all about active defensive a most classes are carried by Passives, only 3 use any real active defenses

Torolan.5816:

Contingents and gating should never be a thing in GW2. At least not the GW2 that was initially advertised as come as you are and play as long as you want. If that vision is gone, then Anet should clearly state that so people can move on and maybe find an alternative, which are sadly quite thin at the moment.

Since the beginning of the Game Legendary weapons have been gated behind Open World PvE but that’s fine with you because it’s content you enjoy, that has been almost all of the people advocating for giving Legendary armor to easier content view point. You have to realize Legendary gating has been in the game since launch and only now is an issue because they gated 1 legendary item behind content you don’t enjoy.

Thanks for all the feed back I have been switching up the builds seeing what I like, I normally play Thief and Mesmer so it’s a playstyle shock for loss of mobility/ active defenses which I’m not used to so I have a learning curve. Right now I have the Soldiers exotics from the 80 booster due to being broke in game I’m trying to switch over to Marauders possibly.

Or make Moa similar to sheep from a certain other Mmo where damage to the polymorphed player would break the polymorph.

The your way or the highway works both ways I gave examples I don’t want to do OW Pve but I want a Legendary weapon from HoT so I will never get it unless I do OW PvE guess what instantly I am excluded from that reward from your argument. You will probably try to rebuttal this argument with you can still do OW PvE to get the Legendary, which would be you telling me to suck it up and do something I don’t like in the first place.

You and Ohoni say that you want to have easy mode raids because Legendary armor should be for anyone, it already is you just have to do the content that provides it, then you say that the target audience is for Non raiders, raids were never meant for Non raiders as the Target audience, and so far raids have brought in more people playing them than the target audience Anet originally expected based on dev quotes, until you provide actual numbers disputing the Devs claim you cannot for certain say that raiders are the Minority and by how much, bring real numbers or a statement from the Devs to support your claims on raids and participation.

Easy mode raids would not attract non raiders because non raiders don’t like raids in the first place, and what’s to say easy mode raids wouldn’t become as toxic as Dungeons and FoTM were?

@ Ohoni Again every part of the game besides ow PvE and WvW have a skill gated Legendary, but you don’t care about making those Braindead easier because you have stated you are able to acquire them, this is only an issue because you can’t acquire the Legendary Armor.

Ps. I’m not a hardcore raider most time is spent in sPvP and WvW, I have raided a whole 13 times since raids were introduced and only haven’t cleared it and quit 2 of Those times, I only raid when my friends need a slot filled and I feel like helping them, I could care less about Legendary armor, but the claims that it should be handed out through an easier means is what I find wrong you either put the effort in or you don’t get it pretty simple.

Xyonon.3987:

Wahoo!

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BlaqueFyre.5678:

With this logic, Basi Venom should work for 2 secs each charge and increase charges to 5, since it’s a whole Elite Slot…..

It already works for 150 breakbar damage instead of only 100. It can also be traited to become a whole 1500 breakbar damage (condi thief). But I agree that 5+ is too much for Slick Shoes again. 2-3 times wold already be enough.

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Sazdek.6830:

Hey Xyo, a couple of times now I’ve seen you mention that scrapper is a strong, if not the best, FotM class. What build(s) are you running for your fractals? Just curious =)

I simply use the normal power or condi engi builds, but I swap utilities very often, basicly for each encounter, to be able to counterplay in the best possible ways.
Against much trash, I’d go power, if you have a long fight before you, condi.

You can pm me (here or ingame) if you want more tips or infos !

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Blast Gyro deals 332 defiancebar damage, so basicly a 3.32s stun. The same thing can be achieved by using the Personal Battering Ram, wich additionaly is a dps increase (the toolbelt is, the actual skill isn’t but neither is Blast Gyro). The toolbelt deals 100 damage, the ram itself 232.

I’d take the ram, unless you want the quickness / lightning field or the range of Blasty ofc! If you can make use of those things like for Matthias the speed and stability, for the Trio the range for the Saboteur, rather take Blasty.

What you also can do, is pick the Rocket Turret (YES I SAID IT!). It’s a turret so naturally it will explode and cause 150 knockback defiancebar damage. The active skill overcharge launches a rocket that does a 3s knockdown, wich is another 300 defiancebar damage. So it’s our best “defiance bar damage per slot” skill, with 450 damage (4.5s stun).
It’s toolbelt is also a huge damage spike, just make sure to not use it on long range due to the strange arc it flies.

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Greez!
- Ziggy

I was mainly referring to the pvp aspect of it and then there is the fact slick shoes can hit multiple targets i.e. More than two, is insta cast, and has a longer cc duration for only 5 seconds more of a CD. Also applies blindness

When Basi venom has. 1 sec cast time, can only be used on two targets max, lasts 1 sec per, Sigil damage will Proc second charge if procc’ed, has 40 second CD and fills an elite slot.
Now if traited Basi venom still hits less targets,

@Ohoni,

The raids can be completed in greens there for it is debatably as easy as Map completion, it can be done with less people than intended….. So they are not difficult, all that is required is to learn mechanics and group with people that learned the mechanics.
And have the patience to complete them. You want to remove all effort from the raids which is where I have the issue just because you want an exclusive shiny, and cite where they say so few people actually Raid, if you don’t have solid numbers when Anet is stating that raids are a success then you are spreading a false assumption to try and push your wants forward.

@Ganathar,

Selling Raids is the same as buying on the TP you find a group yes there is risk but that’s something people have been risking and they can open a ticket if needed, there are lots of Raids for sale in the LFG. And yes alternative methods should be available but not the same exact item, and it shouldn’t be easier than the original method. And I was using Ohoni’s and Astroporling’s argument that paying for a Legendary is Explotation I am fully aware that I can buy a Legendary on the TP but let’s say I want Nevermore ore Chuka and Cumpatawa I have to do OW PvE and map completion which I don’t like doing, therefore it is gated from me.

Use the golem in Aerodrome and check will be most accurate.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Astralporing.1957:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them

It’s the opposite – casuals care less about finetuning the runes to their build, and so they can make greater use of stat swapping than hardcores.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”.

Nope, just a long term goal. Yu can’t get them in day, a week, even a month, but if you really want it, you will eventually get it. Or at least it was like that for the past legendaries.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else

yet, as you noticed, a legendary backpack has two different ways of acquisition. It’s only a skin that is exclusive.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE

Untrue. There was at least a handful of those given out as rewards for sPvP tournaments. Besides, map completion is a really low threshold to pass.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

Raid is the first of such gamemodes that is in itself extremely exclusive. That is the problem.

Okay. Who’s saying that there will never be some sort of legendary armor outside of raids? Did anet state it anywhere?

Also, how are raids excluding people? Please tell me because they sure as hell are not.

The "Exclusion"is them not wanting to put the effort in.

Astralporing.1957:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them

It’s the opposite – casuals care less about finetuning the runes to their build, and so they can make greater use of stat swapping than hardcores.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”.

Nope, just a long term goal. Yu can’t get them in day, a week, even a month, but if you really want it, you will eventually get it. Or at least it was like that for the past legendaries.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else

yet, as you noticed, a legendary backpack has two different ways of acquisition. It’s only a skin that is exclusive.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE

Untrue. There was at least a handful of those given out as rewards for sPvP tournaments. Besides, map completion is a really low threshold to pass.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

Raid is the first of such gamemodes that is in itself extremely exclusive. That is the problem.

Legendary Weapons are Exclusively blocked behind Open world PvE, there are no ifs, ands, or buts, about it, you must complete Map completion to acquire them normally otherwise you cannot get it. Now on the issue of the back pieces FoTM and PvP both have gates that most casuals will never get FoTM being an instances PvE content requires you to be able to complete FoTM 100 which has an actual Gear requirement or you will fail, sPvP has an actual time gate and skill requirement or you will never get it.

See every type of content minus WvW has gated Legendaries. open world PvE shouldn’t have access to every single type of legendary just because you want it. The game wants you to experience everything about it to give value/ meaning to what was made so they hate specific rewards to specific content.

This is shown by you must do X to receive Y… Simple concept of you don’t do X you don’t get Y.

Now I will use yours and Ohoni’s logic, I don’t like Open world PvE/ Map Completion but I want Incinerator because it’s shiny I can’t get it unless I do said contnent, I don’t want to do that content so Anet should make it so I get every single Poi, Vista, Heart, and WP for just entering each zone so I can acquire The pieces for Incinerator. Since it’s too much Work and hassle, and because I really hate Open World PvE to run around these huge maps completing the requirements to get map completion normally.

HumanComplex.1648:

I recently decided to pick up a new class for both pve and pvp, coming from mesmer. I was debating between engi and thief and settled on thief since I really like mobility and high risk/reward. I tried thief out last night for some pvp action, and I find it super fun, however I die every fight. I don’t like staff as I find it incredibly one dimensional and it’s a total yawn fest. I prefer d/p since it seems more blinky and versatile. I tried going to your guys’ ‘guide to guides’ pinned topic but found it lacking and quite out of date, I don’t even think the daredevil trait line is mentioned anywhere. Can someone point me to youtubers or at least give a general breakdown of the right side of the skill bar like the dont-leave-home-without-it utilities/heal/elite? …. or a link to your non-staff build of choice? …or should I have gone with engi?

Go to Metabattle.com for a few builds also watch Sindrenerr he has some good videos and such, biggest thing I can advise try every weapon combo out and see what playstyle you like most it’s easier to become good with weapon style you enjoy, yes some are inherrently worse than others.

Torolan.5816:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Torolan.5816:

Sird.4536:

Miellyn.6847:

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

You are not forced to do this. Legendary armour is just a skin and it baffles me that there are people that think it’s far greater.

Hoographic wings are a skin. Legendary armor is not a skin, it has stats. It is not a tier on its own, but it clearly is an upgrade from ascended. It baffles me that there are people who think that only if the upgrade does not seem relevant to them, it is also not relevant to everyone else. I am also baffled by Anet who think that hiding a casual oriented item like a legendary armor that also can´t swap runes in a hard PvE content is a good idea in any way except for shoehorning casual people into it.

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”. Again all content(minus WvW) has specific legendary gear gated behind it so why shouldn’t Raids? Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else, Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE, Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

What if I say that I find exclusive gating distateful and wrong in every type of content, despite being an avid fractal runner and wvw player(silver infanterist)?
A casual player would use the armor to see what he likes to play and changes it if he doesn´t like it anymore. A meta player will play meta and only change if it changes, from pirate ship to space ship or wherever it will devolve further into.
If you can walk to your own drum, some people will begin a long journey on their own. If they are whiped on the way, some people simply refuse to walk. I expect most casuals to be people like this, elsewise they would already raid.

Again they are not forced to run the content, it is a reward for the players that like the style of content/ want the reward for completing the content, there is no stat advantage over easily obtainable gear, that is a lot cheaper and easier to acquire, no one is being whipped to obtain it since there is no advantage to owning it besides convenience and looks, every single content in game should have unique rewards to that game mode.

Torolan.5816:

Sird.4536:

Miellyn.6847:

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

You are not forced to do this. Legendary armour is just a skin and it baffles me that there are people that think it’s far greater.

Hoographic wings are a skin. Legendary armor is not a skin, it has stats. It is not a tier on its own, but it clearly is an upgrade from ascended. It baffles me that there are people who think that only if the upgrade does not seem relevant to them, it is also not relevant to everyone else. I am also baffled by Anet who think that hiding a casual oriented item like a legendary armor that also can´t swap runes in a hard PvE content is a good idea in any way except for shoehorning casual people into it.

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”. Again all content(minus WvW) has specific legendary gear gated behind it so why shouldn’t Raids? Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else, Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE, Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

Astralporing.1957:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Welcome to the era of entitlement where people want to give minimal effort to gain rewards they do not otherwise deserve.

The only people talking about minimal effort here are raiders.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Yes meeting the equipments means raiders deserve the special reward of Legendary armor, if you don’t meet the requirements or put forth the effort then you do not deserve them it’s a pretty simple concept, again all Legendaries have requirements you must meet be it a cash gate, time gate, or skill gate.

Meeting those do not make you more or less deserving of them. It merely makes you able to obtain them.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again saying raid clear sales exploits players yet you don’t claim the same about people that Sell Legendaries on the TP?

That’s because they offer only convenience. Anyone capable of getting enough gold to buy a legendary off tp is capable of getting that legendary directly. Buying it is only a (costly) shortcut.

Also, i don’t intend to defend any restrictions that make getting legedaries harder by, say, WvW or sPvP players, saying that it’s okay because they can buy them. In fact, the few times it has been brought up on those forums, i supported making legends easier to get in those gamemodes, even if this doesn’t help me in the slightest.

See the difference?

Miellyn.6847:

Thats an argument against everything, just drop everything from junk to finished legendaries from every open world map/wvw loot bag/pvp reward track and everyone will be happy right?

Not quite. It’s an argument against exclusivity, not against effort per se. And yeah, WvW/sPvP should indeed have ways of obtain rewards they want, and reward tracks are a good step into that direction.

Besides, you were the one that brought up that argument. Did you think that it somehow only applied to content you, personally don’t like?

Coulter.2315:

Whats wrong with seeing someone in the world and knowing “Oh they like PvP, look at their backpack.” or “Oh they like fractals and SAB, look at their weapons.”

Nothing. It’s far better than looking at someone and thinking “Huh, they’re wearing raid armor. Poor them, they must have really hated getting it”. Which is the way of thinking you currently advocate.

Making an easier raid that will allow people to ignore mechanics and giving the same rewards means that it requires minimal effort, making the “easy modes” take longer to acquire said item does not increase the effort, all content (excluding WvW) have Legendaries that are only attainable by doing said content making them gated requiring skill and effort.

Anyone that can save up the money to buy raids clears can clear the raids and get the Legendary armor themselves they just choose to pay and take the shortcut to getting it done, raid sales are offering a convenience, of carrying you to victory, you can have any spec, any gear and still get the raids cleared by buying raids. Anyone is capable of obtaining Legendary armor you just have to do the content that offers it called raids, you can’t obtain something if you don’t put the effort to getting it.

With your own argument I can say Legendary weapons are unobtainable because I don’t want to do map completion. Doesn’t matter that I can buy it on the TP because that’s exploiting my unwillingness to do map completion.

It is perfectly fine that there are items that are hated behind specific content, not everyone will do that content because they don’t like it therefore they won’t benefit from those rewards.

Welcome to the era of entitlement where people want to give minimal effort to gain rewards they do not otherwise deserve.

Yes meeting the equipments means raiders deserve the special reward of Legendary armor, if you don’t meet the requirements or put forth the effort then you do not deserve them it’s a pretty simple concept, again all Legendaries have requirements you must meet be it a cash gate, time gate, or skill gate. I pvp/ WvW guess what if I want legendary armor I have to do raids which I do I don’t do any other PvE so therefore I most likely won’t see the FoTM back piece or any other legendary weapon barring buying it from the TP since I probably won’t ever do Map completion which is a requirement for All Legendary weapons. Guess what I don’t complain and that gear is gated behind content I don’t enjoy so I don’t let it bother me.

Again there are easy mode raids in game since there is only one raid difficulty, it has been proven on multiple occasions that A. You do not need BiS gear to complete, B. You do not need a full 10 man Raid group to complete. C. Pugs are able to clear current raids, D. You can purchase raid clears for gold which is essentially the same as purchasing a Legendary weapon off of the TP of you don’t want to put any effort towards it.

Again saying raid clear sales exploits players yet you don’t claim the same about people that Sell Legendaries on the TP?

[/quote]No. Just like selling raid runs this is just an immensely self-serving philosophy. “I don’t want you to have what you want, but I’m willing to allow you to have the ‘prestigious’ rewards, so long as I can get my beak wet.” How magnanimous. No, raiders should not be profiting off of other players. If raiders do not think that the game rewards them enough for raiding, then push for better personal raid rewards, don’t push for more ways to gouge players that don’t raid. Raiders should not be the gatekeepers of who is allowed to have Legendary Armor.[/quote]

This part, you are saying raiders should push for better rewards great we agree, they did this by giving raiders the promise of Legendary Armor, this statement by you goes against your whole assertion that non- raiders should be given the same rewards for a fraction of the effort, which would devalue the raiders better personal reward.

And right before that you say that people should have easy modes so they can experience the content/ story, that would be a good idea but shouldn’t provide the better personal reward that the regular raids provide.

Doggie.3184:

I got 11258 backstabbed in WvW and instant downed before I could even see a Thief on my screen. XD It’s a rough life being a melee class with such little HP, even with vitality.

If you were insta downed with the backstab at 11k you must be running pure Zerkers……

Josh XT.6053:

Depends on what you want to do. For roaming or if you want to be in the heat of the action as a front line ele, use this -> http://asphyxia.tv/elementalist/

For back line, you can go as zerky as you feel comfortable with and run staff with fire/water/tempest.

This helps out, thank you. Would you say staff is good in WvW?

slashlizardy.9167:

Leggie Armor should be available in easy mode raids, done!

Your wish is granted, since there is only one difficulty of raids all raids are easy mode there are no hard mode raids.

Simonoly.4352:

I don’t think this needs to happen. I like that there’s some reactive counterplay to Infiltrator’s Return – it was really silly when it was instant. It still removes a condition and provides amazing tactical mobility at 1200 range so it’s a great weapon still.

I think its a well designed skill, it’s just that post HoT is full of terribly designed skills that don’t have any opportunity costs like Infiltrator’s Strike/Return rightfully has.

Yes but currently Anet has shown they won’t remove the power creep so they should adjust existing skills and revert nerfs accordingly, especially with Aoe and passive cc being thrown around so easily nowadays and with Thief still having no reliable access to stab why not give a pseudo stun break?

So j have an Ele I have only ever used for sPvP, I was wondering what would be a good starting point for WvW, is Tempest a must have for it or would core Ele be viable and is Staff decent out side of Blobs?

Anvil.9230:

According to me it’s one of the best utilitary of the game.

Its real power is more in the tactical options given to the player than in the Dps that it allows.

It’s so true that it’s rare to find a thief who doesn’t use it: the real challenge is to play without it.

So tactical spamming your self with invalid path to target…… Jk

Amaranthe.3578:

Stop duck and reroll

This Rev in Thiefs clothing is trying really hard to recruit for his class.

A toggle able perma stealth would be horrible, but an insta cast 3-4 sec stealth that causes Aoe blindness with a 240 radius on 25 sec CD would be more balanced and fit with Thief gameplay more, but with how Anet seems to be trying to delete Stealth by constantly adding in spammable Revealed this would never happen and stealth will be left in its pathetic broken state.

Dahkeus.8243:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

I was looking into Swapping SA for Trick to see if DA/Trick/DD would have any Merit. Which would benefit the Thief Hybrid build even more you just lose the utility of Sharing Hard CC and healing,

You lose a massive amount of damage when you drop venom share in a group PvE setting. However, the lead attack change is why you now see quite a few more DA/Tr/DD condi thieves in PvP. It’s a strong build that requires little experience or attention to perform well with.

That’s what I was afraid of and why I was only looking at the Replacing SA with Trick.

I was looking into Swapping SA for Trick to see if DA/Trick/DD would have any Merit. Which would benefit the Thief Hybrid build even more you just lose the utility of Sharing Hard CC and healing,

Dahkeus.8243:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Dahkeus.8243:

ESKan.6782:

Oh, but this is interesting. Daredevil’s only in there for Lotus Training, isn’kitten I’ll have to cope with losing the third dodge, though I’m a little happy that Trickery’s back on the bar!

and Impairing Daggers and Havoc Mastery.

The impairing daggers will be missed but the Havok Mastery would be replaced with the Lead Attacks which should perform better due to it modifying both Physical and Condi damage by 15%, just have to do further testing to see if it balances out or not.

Yea, feel free to test out the build some more, but I don’t see this variant as being better. I editted my post to add in some of the reasoning for this. Lead Attacks does give you +15% damage, but you lose the 10% condi damage from Lotus dodge and replace the lotus 8s bleed + 6s torment (base duration) with three 4s bleeds, so I’m not seeing it as a really clear winner.

I definitely get where you are coming from, your points are valid, that’s why I posted here to see if this could work or be fine tuned a little more, I was putting the build together before heading to bed and didn’t have time to test in game.

Dahkeus.8243:

ESKan.6782:

Oh, but this is interesting. Daredevil’s only in there for Lotus Training, isn’kitten I’ll have to cope with losing the third dodge, though I’m a little happy that Trickery’s back on the bar!

and Impairing Daggers and Havoc Mastery.

The impairing daggers will be missed but the Havok Mastery would be replaced with the Lead Attacks which should perform better due to it modifying both Physical and Condi damage by 15%, just have to do further testing to see if it balances out or not.

Dahkeus.8243:

From my tests, it came out about 1k less. However, I ran with needle trap instead of assassin’s sig since I don’t see what benefit that would bring. I did this right before bed, so it’s possible my rotations weren’t perfect, so anyone else can feel free to double check my results.

I want sure what would have filed the third Utility slot and since this is a hybrid Condi build I thought the extra damage from Assassins would benefit it.

thanks for the input, yeah the more testing the better we can compare the builds, thank you again for testing it out

With the new Lead Attacks, affecting Condi and Physical damage would a core Thief build using DA/SA/Trick, here is what I was considering, it may not work to well will have to check the numbers once I get my last few pieces of Vipers gear unless someone else could dps test it

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJA4YnMJCNOhNNBGNB8PhjWiSHAh4C4Lj2IK4L6RUEA-ThRFQB9T9HroEMBHEAA8AAc3+DNU5HA-e

Regon plays a Reaper and wants the class that are at all difficult for him to manage nerfed so he can face roll again

I won’t lie I found it funny that when fighting TC the last couple nights they wouldn’t fight other zergs unless they had cloaking waters, and only stayed near SMC.

mrauls.6519:

Can someone explain to me why every teef uses lead attacks now? Teeves seem a lot stronger (not a bad thing)

Lead attacks is a free trait in a trailing already made mandatory in sPvP, it’s not a huge buff but it does make Thieves more online with every other ES.allowing thieves to sustain damage a little better.

You would see less of it if Anet would either balance thief Ini pool around 12 ini or making preparedness baseline.

With this logic, Basi Venom should work for 2 secs each charge and increase charges to 5, since it’s a whole Elite Slot…..

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Main Convenience is not having to spend time to go make Mystic Salvage Kits, I used to have 4 in my bags at a given time to limit the amount of times I have to go to LA to make more, And now with the free shared inventory slot the convenience has multiplied to all my characters.

DoctorDing.5890:

It’s not about value for money or need. The silver and copper salvage-o-matics combined with the shared inv slots make for a uber-convenient salvage system across every toon on your account.

I am not questioning the concept of convenience being more valuable than any cost savings. I completely agree that it would be a pain to have to keep creating kits. Copper-fed in a shared slot is well worth the cost so I never have to buy basic kits.

Instead, I’m asking, what exactly are you salvaging that you need more than 250 mystic uses per week? At my peak of buying rares (not even depending on drops) + salvaging ecto + collecting data on salvage rates, I rarely have used more than one per month. For 500 gems, I’d far prefer to have other convenience items over a Silver-Fed. I just can’t come up with any scenario in which the SFSoM is actually more convenient than mystic kits.

Obviously, your mileage varies from mine — I’m wondering why.

I slavage everything with it that does not have any real resale value, so it’s the convenience of never running out of any kits, then I sell all Sigils/runes gained this way.

Idk how they got it wrong I thought they pulled all of their data from the Api

babazhook.6805:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

babazhook.6805:

I just wish there an easier way of determining just how many seconds off steal cooldown that swindlers gets you in a typical fight. I can only go by feel and it seems to me to be around 4 seconds. Any others input appreciated.

I do find that this goes UP depending on what profession you fight. Ie a mesmer allows more evade chances which dovetails nicely into more plasma and resistance. Those condi mesmers are easier to deal with now.

Iirc it was 1% of max duration but with the Patch it reduced it to 1 Second

Someone else mentioned that and I am not sure of what the source of that information was. As long as I have used swindlers it has been one second decrease per evade. When another mentioned that 1 percent I weant way back to the original patch notes and they still read one second per evade.

Here

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

It’s cheaper and more convenient than Master Salvage Kits, it is more expensive than Mystic Salvage Kits if you forget about the Mystic Stones needed for the Mystic Kits, it is just the convenience at that point never running out and takes up less bag space and has even more added value if put in the free Shared inventory slot provided with HoT now

In 3.5 years, using all types of salvage and running 1000s of tests for science, I’ve never managed to run out of mystic stones or need more than 1-2 mystic sal kits/week. I buy rares and exotics to salvage, I salvage ecto for dust, I test mystics versus basic on various items to see if there’s an economic advantage…and I still can’t see any need for silver-fed.

What are you guys salvaging with mystic|master|silver-fed that silver-fed offers any sort of convenience over mystic?

Main Convenience is not having to spend time to go make Mystic Salvage Kits, I used to have 4 in my bags at a given time to limit the amount of times I have to go to LA to make more, And now with the free shared inventory slot the convenience has multiplied to all my characters.