Guild Wars 2

Mattmatt.4962:

So you’re "complaining" about food. Yes it’s an issue, and way bigger and more obvious one.
Obviously this food need to be nerfed before any condi change (same for the +40% one)

its not a complaint. I have no issues with -% food/runes. Use them. it just forces me to get better and find ways to get my damage off.

Mattmatt.4962:

you should look the video again then, you used death-shroud’s skill on it

did I make mistakes, sure
would it have mattered if I played a perfect duel? Nope. -% condi food/runes will just beat any condi class and his damage was still very good.

Mattmatt.4962:

Brando, sorry but the necro staring in your video is very bad (throw away so many skill on the shield stance at the very beginning).

Ozii, you didnt get what i say.
The fact is that against a power build, you keep your evade for big attacks (and by the way, every big one is easy to avoid contrary to what you’re saying)
Against a condi build, for what do you keep your roll? exept spite signet (which is another issue but out subject) its mainly “little” attack that apply 2-3stack.

Bhawd, to really calculate the damage, we should look at how many damage aren’t applyed due to dispell on average. Even with an optimal use, many cleanse are on higher CD than condi-skill (not even motionning auto-attack able to deal 2differents ones). I don’t pretend to have the right number, but i think overall damage is higher for condi.

actually I was traited with unblock-able marks so the shield cant block them

Mattmatt.4962:

Bhawb.7408:

Its very easy to do 7k+ damage in one hit in sPvP,

Its very easy to avoid it too.

Bhawb.7408:

however 7k condi ticks would require:
25 stacks of bleeds (2800 per tick)
25 stacks of torment (4200 per tick)

However how do you manage to avoid 25 skills that deal 2condi stacks ? (average)

So yeah as you said Maths are strongh, but when you simplify them and forget like half the issue, result are always bad.

Conclusion:
Yes it deals way to much damage for the difficulty to apply them and the risk (there is no risk since you’re with tanky stuff (at least dire doesn’t exist in PvP … maybe not for long …))

here is an example of someone who knows how to deal with conditions.
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/4031535

here is what you sound like.
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3439319

see the difference. Learn how/when to counter and cleanse conditions and you will not have many issues.

I would pay for something like this.

Condi got buffed?
hmm I must have missed the condi comps in ToL

Woaden.9425:

S/D P/D or S/D SB in zerker gear put out plenty of damage. Paired with the access to daze and immob it is quite potent.

The situation goes like this: An enemy is out of position, you or your periph leader calls target. You Sword 2 to target (immob), Dagger 5 (stealth), Tactical Strike (daze,), auto attack chain, waiting to steal (daze, blablaTrickery, mug damage/heal) any critical cast. Your 1, 2, or 3 periphery teammates also converge on your dazed, immobilized target, making quick work.

If the target somehow escapes (using their stunbreaks), swap pistol, immob/vuln shot, cast basilisk, auto attack freeze, cast immob shot, steal+cnd unload, dagger 3 blink/torment, and find next target.

I am in [EP] GvG/Raiding and [Grim] Roaming.

I think s/d+d/d would be a good set for that kind of playstyle.
s/d for the immo/daze/aa chain cripple then CnD swap weps to get the nice BS off.

Looks Like Anet still hasn’t learned anything when it comes to GvG

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Angried-by-Dev-s-comment-on-GvG/first#post4008081

to look at their comments forward to 38:45

Conditions are considered "OP" by those who dont know how to handle or refuse to adapt, but yes my wvw build is condi.

I could also win many fights without my +40% duration food.

a t s e.9614:

OP for me its when a certain spec beats 90% of the builds in 1v1. An entire class can’t be OP, it really is the build.

well there is a flip side to this.
my necro runs 0/6/4/4/0 when the meta used to be 6/4/0/0/4 (pre nerf dumbfire)
I won well over 90% of my 1v1’s but my build was never considered “OP” by anyone’s standards.

OP means "i cant beat him/her with my build, Nerf them so I can beat them with my current build"

d/p+sb 0/6/6/2/0
zerk/cav/knights gear
Pressure the caster classes that are away from the train/Burst/stealth stomps or rez

pretty much it

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNAW3djk0UTbRNm3wfbiihaqYI6AoA+WqDinoIA-TJxGABAcRAy9JAwUZAh2fAA

High life force generation = staff aa/marks/axe 2/focus 4
Strong healing = 1197 healing power, 6s regen from focus 4 (18s cd), 7s regen from staff 2 (6s cd), WoB 631 Heal per/s (40s cd), DS 4 has 4.7k heal (34s cd)
High pressure on the enemy through debilitating conditions and (soft) cc = Chill on blind (plauge/WoD), Fear, Cripple, Tons of boon corruption (DS 2, corrupt boon, WoC)

well of corruption: Retaliation corruption only gives 1 stack of confusion instead of 3 like corrupt boon.

Unless they changed the food to always give you +40% duration that cant be cleansed then I would agree its op, but guess what most of the time the +40% extra duration doesnt give us the full 40% because the conditions where cleansed.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQJAoYl8MpwpNOxzJ8PNRLRt9I0BvgXnh2VQAEiA-TlCBAB1s/Qlq/cmSQsU+BwBEIP9ApohghDEgenAgAeAABAQAuZbGADdoDdoDdodzbezbezbWKgBWGB-w

2791 power (no might)
3491 power with 20stacks of might

up to 65% damage modifiers when target is under 50%

if you want pure burst and gtfo then here you go.

if your in a zerg you have the safety of numbers. run full zerk wellomancer

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRUQNAW3Yjc00SbNNO3wfbiahC66MAmho6Aqbj3oaB-T1hFABAcRAG4JAYkyvR2f4MdDDq+TVKBDAgAczbmNbzgje0je0je0u5Nv5Nv5NLFwALjA-w

hooma.9642:

dancingmonkey.4902:

hooma.9642:

im getting tired from such nonsense argumentation.. how about stop demanding prove from every post u see against conditions and deliver evidence that proves your point.. so far i only see u demanding.. esp since you for yourself claim stuff without any evidence and your claimed proven facts with vids are also false, cause u refuse to compare the reality!

I agree, it is absolute nonsense to request that you offer any evidence to a claim that has already been dis-proven, what are we thinking…………Oh wait, silly me, that is a perfectly reasonable request.

Evidence for our argument? You mean like youtube video damage comparison posted on the last 7 thread on this topic? If the same 10 posters would stop spamming the forums repeatedly with this same thread you may have seen them. Perhaps had you looked at all, I don’t know. As well, previous threads have comparative damage out put break down. …

see thats your total mistake that i mentioned. i talked about reality that every spvp/tpvp match tells you.. not some stupid dps compares against a target golem or your calculations based on numbers… there is to many u cant cover.. u seem not to understand that.

u can compare your dmg as long as u want. it doesnt matter. u and all your companions seems not to understand this. as long condis can BURST its broken. simple is that. the rate of application on necro and engi is broken, cause thats the only both classes that can condi-BURST… thats not a problem of condis or power and has nothing to do with dmg that different dmg-types or build do. its just a matter of possible negating and counterplay.

and to repeat there is absolut no counter*PLAY* involved against condi-builds. either you BUILD to counter or not. there is no middle way. either u have enough condi-cleanse to complete negate his build or not. its the way like diamond skin work just in a different scale. u seems not to understand it.

it doesnt matter if u cant apply any condi or i just have always more cleanse than u can apply and can outheal the remaining dmg. the fact that my BUILD simple counters yours, without any possible way u could turn that outcome, with more a less passive, is a counter BUILD that should not be in GW2. in the most cases its simply the other way around. hard to understand or what?

did you happen to look at those 2 warrior duels I put up?
1 know how to counter conditions and is a wvw roamer
the other well is like many who post complaints.

phaeris.7604:

Conditions are too plentiful, too easy to spam and do too much damage.

did you even look at my damage comparison clips?

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 Old dumbfire Condi dps test
Rotation:
Staff 2-3-5, Dodge+wep swap, enter ds, ds5-3-2, scepter 2-5-aa so about 12 actions with random dumbfire proc

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 power valk amulet
rotation:
SoS for % damage modifier, WoS+WoC, flash ds for fury, AA chain like a boss. 5 actions.

condi spec now will take at the very least another second to kill since we need to use lb 1 to proc burning.

Now for those who complain about not being able to counter conditions I give you this: http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/4031535 I was just smashed with no hope of a happy ending.

now here is another warrior that sounds just like most of the people who complain here: http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3439319 see the difference?

dancingmonkey.4902:

Grimreaper.5370:

sinzer.4018:

I build exclusively for power. I don’t have much of an issue, i kill most people i fight. That may be down to my playtime on my main though (1k hrs). I’ve never found it unfun to fight condis. It never occured to me that it could be infuriating to. Fighting against someone that relies heavily on stealth is tedious but condis? lol. /cleanse

Just wait until you run into 2+ heavy condi spam necros who are well coordinated. THAT is FUN.

Brilliant.

So I was on my necro the other day in WvW. I was solo flipping a supply camp. I wasn’t paying enough attention. Two, well coordinated Guardians caught off guard and killed me. So yes, I agre with your example. Direct damage needs a nerf.

I once had 2 thives steal+CnD+BS me at the same time by that logic nerf burst even more

Carighan.6758:

Brando.1374:

depends, some can down someone in 2s while others can take 15s to down someone.
so a condi class should be able to down someone in 4-30s?

Er, 20s or so.

Anyhow, just look at an attack.
If attack A deals 4000 damage instantly, and attack B deals 500 damage but applies a single stack of bleeding which takes 7s to tick for 3500 extra damage, it’s easy to see how this balances (one example of this is the Necro scepter with it’s bleed AA).

Now, maybe conditions in GW2 “tick too fast”. But as someone above said this is not something condition-specific. The whole combat system, offence, conditions, attacks, death, in this game is lightning-fast.
You die in split-seconds. And with conditions, you can die in two split-seconds by purging them once. That’s it.

So really, any “fix” to conditions has to “simply” (yeah…) slow down combat. On all ends. The slower combat is, the more the extra time conditions need to kill someone become a liability, as more and more players gain more and more chances to react to it.

I just want to point out that there is no 1 stack of bleeding that will do 3500 damage in 7s.
burning can but that is no longer applied through crits/aa from a necro at least.

as for a condi user killing someone in 2split seconds, you will have to wait at least 3-5 skills before the full condi bomb will come close to killing you.

I made this same suggestion in march. nothing came of it though.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Swim.6830:

I’d be fine if conditions needed twice the time of DDs, but it really isn’t the case currently.

That doesn’t make any sense. Exactly how long does it take a direct damage based player to kill another?

depends, some can down someone in 2s while others can take 15s to down someone.
so a condi class should be able to down someone in 4-30s?

ok lets put 2 basic necro builds against each other.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNArYWic0mAaokUAENJLlmBA-TpQTQAg9HylBAA

1 aa chain will do = 2301 damage over 4 seconds (not bad single target damage)
with aa alone you may be able to get 5 stacks with just aa.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNAW4Ijc00YbLN20mAXog+NDgWIqLg6zINeWA-TpQOABAs/ArlBAA

FYI none of these will include and % damage modifiers

Staff aa - 624 every 3/4s so mayby 5 aa in 4 seconds but for the sake of argument I will say 4 aa in 4 seconds = 2496 not including crits and only hitting 1 target

1 dagger aa chain will do = 2386 lets assume you can do 2 aa chains in 4s = 4772

lifeblast will do 939/1314 so lets assume we get 2 in kitten it would be 1878/2628 not including crits

ill let you guys break this down further

the real skill is learning how to counter them instead of complaining and creating duplicate topics.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

style.6173:

Is this thread a joke? Necro is currently in a great place right now. Condis are the current meta in PvP and WvW.

-looks at the recent toruney, sees no team had more than one condition build-

the ToL tourny should have opened their eyes a bit since like you said only 1 condi build per team for the most part.

so based on that should we nerf direct damage to make it more worth while to get 2-3 condi builds in high level play?

here is my theory crafted Bunker/healing necro build
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNAoYWjk0UTbRN+0wfbCshQqgpXuqoeL8D-TJxGABA8EAy9UAwUZAh2fAA

Lots of aoe team healing and a good amount of life stealing with wells. stability on demand when going into ds/Plauge
3 ways to reduce/remove conditions (1 of them is aoe)

blind spam?

Grotesque.6480:

Would there be interest in a GW2 GVG Hub whereas players can announce GVGs, post videos, apply for shoutcasting, look up on GVG Guilds and contact info?

No rankings though, just a hub where you can find info and whatever. Let me know.

http://www.gw2wvw.net/

hihey.1075:

dDuff.3860:

After patch lyssa runes converts up to 5 conditions into 9 sec of regen
While tooltip says: convert up to 5 conditions into boons

/Discuss
#omgnerf

Nope. They convert conditions using this formula:
Blind: Fury
Bleed, Poison, Burn, Torment: Regeneration
Vulnerability: Protection
Weakness: Might
Cripple, Chilled, Immobilize: Swiftness
Confusion: Retaliation
Fear: Stability.

So if you use them for cleansing bleeds/poison/torment, all you will get is regen.

I always thought
bleed = vigor
poison = regen
torment = might
burn = aegis

at least thats how well of power works which should be the same as lyssa conversion.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Simon.3794:

there are 1 fear on staff and 1 in DS, 1 with nightmare rune and another one from trait i think, so 4

Actually we have:
Spectral wall
Reapers mark
Doom
Reapers protection
Runes
Corrupt boon on stability
Fear on down
Fear WHEN downed

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNArYWjc00bb5NG3wfbighSyW4DiuBCgzlypIKA-TJRFwAAeCAK3fIxpAIaZAA

this build has all forms of fear a necro can get.

Xeviel was one of the best I new. watching him duel was just so fluid. (s/d + d/d)

he didnt make many videos or stream anything but here is one vid he did make
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcPH3AUjWEg

sadly he no longer plays due to having to work more. $$ before games.

Sinister.5792:

Necro
1. Fear Duration
-The duration is kinda high, needs to minimized

2. Deathshroud
-Necros shouldnt be able to cast any skills when stunned on deathshroud. aka. use fear when being stunned or feared

3. Dhuumfire
-pretty simple… the burning…

4. Signet of Spite
-the one button killer
(I basically dodged the first signet of spite, and I killed two players, then necro came back and just put one signet of spite in my thief, and bam.. instant dead..)
it should be nerf like what happened to lyssa runes, it should put only 5 conditions on enemy(not to mention about the long duration of cripple and chill.. needs nerf)

5. Corrupt Boon
-Needs nerf like lyssa runes, should corrupt only 5 boons

Fear duration is actually low, we just have more access to fear than any other class as it should be.

Deathshroud is fine. bring some stability to negate fear.

Dumbfire was already nerfed and is now very telegraphed.

SoS I agree, nerf that so scrub necro’s will cry.

corrupt boon…… it was nerfed about a year ago to only corrupt 5 boons. if anything lyssa has been made a good rune set instead of the OP set it used to be.

Solori.6025:

jportell.2197:

Maybe necro’s can get some of their bleeds back? I’m not a fan of condition builds in anyway but I seem to remember grasping dead and mark of blood having their bleeding reduced in sPvP I think that this was directly related to dumbfire and at the time Anet seemed so hellbent on keeping that stupid trait on a class that never needed it.

Well now that dumbfire is essentially gone from any decent necromancer build…. Can they get some of their bleeds back?

LoL no

wow thats some great feedback…

anyway to answer op I do thing they should Un-nerf the loss of bleeds on some of the necro skills.

ebay vs borlis rock was an epic rivalry
second would be ebay vs mag the pvf was very amusing to read.

dancingmonkey.4902:

So what I am reading here is
“I don’t want to build to counter conditions, so they need to be nerfed. I know they can be countered, but nerf them so I do not need to counter them.”

This way I can make a new thread and complain about a lack of build diversity, after they remove an entire 1/2 of the damage types at my dmeand. To suit little old me. The rest of the players be danged.

its more like “I have a build that can counter physical damage but I get wrecked by conditions!! Nerf conditions so I dont have to worry about dying or change my build to accommodate both play styles!”

Littlefeather.8623:

Brando.1374:

Littlefeather.8623:

Brando.1374:

Littlefeather.8623:

A guardian does not have the option to do any one of those in PvP friend, except rush away, but a crippled/chilled guardian with a few K HP trying to run away from a Necro is not going to happen. This is just one situation, but I hope you get the idea.

a bunker guard should be able to stalemate a condi class. Not necessarily win but he wont die.

Not every guardian is a Bunker, and not every guardian wants to be support. I guess if Im a guardian I either choose bunker or support…seems legit

it actually is legit. you need to choose your build and know your weakness. a condi necro has limited access to stab and only a few stun breaks on 50+s cd. we are very easy to stun lock and shut down.

so it all about what you choose to do with your class.

I should not have brought Necro into this thread. My only point is there is not a lot of incentive to have high toughness in the world of Condi damage. There is an incentive to have high HP though. Unfortunately some classes do not have high HP.

but those who dont have high hp have skills that help keep their low hp up. ele and guard come to mind.

Littlefeather.8623:

Brando.1374:

Littlefeather.8623:

A guardian does not have the option to do any one of those in PvP friend, except rush away, but a crippled/chilled guardian with a few K HP trying to run away from a Necro is not going to happen. This is just one situation, but I hope you get the idea.

a bunker guard should be able to stalemate a condi class. Not necessarily win but he wont die.

Not every guardian is a Bunker, and not every guardian wants to be support. I guess if Im a guardian I either choose bunker or support…seems legit

it actually is legit. you need to choose your build and know your weakness. a condi necro has limited access to stab and only a few stun breaks on 50+s cd. we are very easy to stun lock and shut down.

so it all about what you choose to do with your class.

Littlefeather.8623:

A guardian does not have the option to do any one of those in PvP friend, except rush away, but a crippled/chilled guardian with a few K HP trying to run away from a Necro is not going to happen. This is just one situation, but I hope you get the idea.

a bunker guard should be able to stalemate a condi class. Not necessarily win but he wont die.

this looks like it might work well with a pve thief for an extra 200 power when their cnd+bs is on reveal cd.

Littlefeather.8623:

Keira Ferland.5619:

condi clear and hp counter condi dmg what r u talking about no counters

Condi clears are not even across the board my friend, some classes have more than others, and HP is not even across the board either. That is what I am talking about.

those who cant handle conditions well have the option to stealth/blink/teleport/rush away and reset/find someone their build can beat.

Littlefeather.8623:

It has been the case since Necro’s starting getting buffed. Theres no defense against Condi, literally speaking. In most MMO’s I’ve played, there’s been Physical Attack and Magical Attack, Physical Defense, and Magical Defense.

But in GW2, It’s Power and Condi / Toughness and Vitality. Which makes sense, this leaves classes with low HP high Toughness weaker to Condi and Lower Toughness and higher HP stronger to Condi. But this is not how it’s played out in GW2. What I find is condi clears are a must have, forcing people to choose or sacrifice. Some classes have condi clears in weapon skills, those are great and some classes do not, those are not great.

Moral of my post is there should be Condi defense, just like there is Physical defense, that way low HP high toughness classes can defend against condi while still being viable to solo the condi player.

“It has been the case since Necro’s starting getting buffed.”

the only “buff” to necro’s was dumbfire, which lead to several necro skills being nerfed and ultimately dumbfire was also nerfed.

so please tell me about those buffs.

http://www.twitch.tv/magictoker

he streams almost every day.

Oswaldzl.3652:

I see its a choice maker, but wont both fear and confusion be cleansed together?

a stun breaker will clear fear but not confusion.
and unless the condi clear is a stun breaker most of the time confusion/other condi will stay on them

can you imaging the amount of complaints if we where able to get % damage traits to work with condition damage.

Oswaldzl.3652:

for perplexity rune it gives 8 sec confusion on 6th rune… my fear can cast 4.5sec fear… does it make the rune useless?

no because they will be forced to make a choice.
1 – use a skill to get stab or stun breaker and take fear damage and clear the conditions and eat confusion damage.
2- eat the 4s fear + anything else you give him

Rennoko.5731:

manveruppd.7601:

I’m having a bit of trouble adjusting, but slowly getting there. On balance, I think it’s only a slight nerf to Dhuumfire, while increasing the skill threshold needed to maximise DPS with the Dhuumfire/Terror combo, which are both good things.

The one thing I’m disappointed by is that I think Dhuumfire is still necessary for good damage with a condi build in spvp. The nerfs we got after Dhuumfire was introduced really show when you give it up. I do like the new traits, but for me the choice is between Path of Corruption and Master of Terror, rather than between Path of Corruption/Parasitic contagion vs Dhuumfire.

I am trying… I really am… but it is hard to break the habit of not wasting time with a life-blast in a condition build. When I get under pressure I absolutely forget to life-blast, so no burning. No burning means not enough pressure against heavy removal and sustain classes.

Life-blasting in melee range is also rather unforgiving if they are not already CC’ed, as they can just jump around your side and the LB fails.

It is certainly a much higher skill cap to use effectively, but I don’t think it needed its duration reduced by 25%. That seemed too harsh from what it once was.

I have found the junk condition sigils work really well with burning not up all the time, at protecting the bleeds.

Im glad I dont have to adjust to this nerf…. I had to adjust to all the other nerfs because of dhumfire.

1v1 conditions builds are strong unless you build to counter them be -% condi runes/food and/or a stability heavy stunlocking build.

dont let us get our "burst" rotation in or cleanse right after our huge "burst" to negate the extra damage ticks.

I know this does not apply to all classes, to those who dont have the ability to clear conditions well, most of the time they can stealth/blink/dash away to reset.

Only reason the run melandru and lemon is so that they wont have to spec into condi removal to keep their L33t dps uptime instead of having to click a skill to remove conditions.

basically passive counterplay to conditions.