I love how thieves are comparing it to warrior healing without factoring in the part where most classes can’t hit you in stealth because stealth disables targeted attacks and ground placed aoe is not only weak but scarce and in some cases totally absent from other classes.
So while the warrior is broken and regens more, he is also not stealthed ever and is taking constant damage to counter some of the regen whereas the thief stops all damage dead on its tracks by stealthing and heals to boot.
And all of those thief perks also come with the bonus of 5-6k backstabs on medium high toughness builds.
Hell, I’m sure warriors would love being able to do eviscerates while invisible so nobody can dodge that kittened damage.
Necro- Wells, marks, DS
Engi- nades, bombs, non-target based kit attacks
Guardian- gs, staff, heck even torch
Warrior- lb, gs, axe, hammer #3 and burst, stomp, etc
Mesmer- counter to thief
Ranger- traps, torch, entangle
elementalist- king of aoe
Aoe attacks aren’t scarce, even my axe/focus d/d necro can locate thieves, and often I have knocked them out of sr and killed them moments later. SA is not op, its a defensive trait line that lets thieves run glassy builds. Even with 30 in SA, thief toughness/armor are not high, they still go down easy due to being the lowest health tier. If a thief is not glassy and they’re running SA, chances are they are running some t-word spec and are there more to just annoy you than kill you. Only reason you should die to such builds is if you’re new and/or easily fooled.
Invisible =/= Invincible. Sooner you understand that the sooner we can see balance vs. flat nerfs because people aren’t willing to L2P.
Ah the always "L2P" issue. I have clocked many many hours on this game, but I am not going to post a "resume" on a forum. I beg of you, please come to the Maguuma/SOS/FA tier, and come fight some ridiculous thieves. The ones who know how overpowered SA is, will even admit to it being OP.
Me vs D/P is not a hard fight. dont stand in smoke field, predict their movement (since I also have a thief I have a good idea where they could be)
Me vs s/d is a near impossible fight unless they miss time their evade. (most good s/d thieves dont go 30 in sr)
Me vs p/d its a 80% chance I win due to not getting the conditions xfered over fast enough.
I love how thieves are comparing it to warrior healing without factoring in the part where most classes can’t hit you in stealth because stealth disables targeted attacks and ground placed aoe is not only weak but scarce and in some cases totally absent from other classes.
So while the warrior is broken and regens more, he is also not stealthed ever and is taking constant damage to counter some of the regen whereas the thief stops all damage dead on its tracks by stealthing and heals to boot.
And all of those thief perks also come with the bonus of 5-6k backstabs on medium high toughness builds.
yes a warrior does not have stealth.
they have highest base hp
High armor
decent wep damage
Lots of stuns
Good amount of blocks/immunity
Crazy good hp regen
good condi removal
All of this is possible in 1 spec
Thief has
Evades s/d and sometimes s/p
Stealth d/p and good d/d
Backstab d/p and d/d
Lowest hp
medium armor
- Some builds that can apply tons of them and continuosly.
- Stat combinations allows condi builds to have very high condition damage while also having high defensive stats. However, power builds have to sacrifice defensive stats to reach good numbers, as the rely on burst.
Apart from that, condi cleansing is fine. Maybe eles and mesmers need to have more reliable cleansing. That doesn’t mean they don’t have it, just they need to invest a lot of traits and skills to have decent amount of cleansing.
- some builds can apply tons of stuns and on a fairly regular basis Nerf then as well, Keep things balanced you know.
- would you prefer to see a Hi condi damage class with no toughness/vit. we wont even survive being sneezed on.
Now lets compare this healing with a warrior healing sig
Base hp regen is 392
30s of healing sig = 11760 hp. More healing than a thief
60s of healing = 23520 hp
if you need to complain about a class that can heal a lot its a warrior.
A warrior doesn’t burst for 7-9k with running healing signet to its max. Don’t kid yourself.
War’s regen is obnoxious, but it is getting nerfed as well on the upcoming patch, on the other hand this obnoxious trait is being ignored. A warrior cannot heal for 1000 hp/sec for example.
Thats the point, a warrior has to do NOTHING to get that healing!
while a thief has to invest 30 points into 1 traitline to get a minor heal while in stealth and only when in stealth.
Edit
also is a warrior wanted to "burst" heal they should use healing surge. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Surge Adrenaline.png Adrenaline: 30
Healing.png Stage 0 heal: 5,885 (0.90)?
Healing.png Stage 1 heal: 6,540 (1.00)?
Healing.png Stage 2 heal: 8,180 (1.25)?
Healing.png Stage 3 heal: 9,820 (1.50)?
Now lets compare this healing with a warrior healing sig
Base hp regen is 392
30s of healing sig = 11760 hp. More healing than a thief
60s of healing = 23520 hp
if you need to complain about a class that can heal a lot its a warrior.
with 30 in sr, shadow rejuvinate will heal about 323 hp/s
Hide in shadows heals for 5540 + 4s stealth(32.3*4) +4 1/2s regen = 7500 hp over 4s if you stay in stealth. 30s cd
shadows refuge heals for about 409 hp/s + stealth heal (323*x) = 6481 is you remain in stealth the full 15s this has a 60s cd
1) Give us some meaningful utility.
2) Give us a melee cleave weapon.
3) Fix current traitlines.
4) Give necros some form of active defense other than the base dodges.
5) Make boon on DS traits group aoe etc.
6) If no extra utility is given, increase direct damage to be on par with ele/thief.
7) Rework life siphon.
1. I agree to a point. In wvw depending on our spec we can be used in a few different ways. Pve we do need some more group utility.
2. 100% agree
3. I wouldnt say all the traitlines are broken but yes modifications are needed
4. Spectral wall should be a reflect or be able to absorb damage
5. that would make foot in the grave a bit too much dont you think? aoe stab/retal/fury on a 10s cd.
6. we already have one of the highest damage AA in game, adding cleave I think would make things fair
7. rework it yes.
I would Love Open world PvP.
some rules though (I take the rules form a different game called Dekaron which is almost all open world pvp/pk)
simple mechanic, Hold ctl or another key to be able to attack another player. if you dont your attacks will just be like normal attacks which will only hit mobs.
1. if you attack an afk player you will get but into battle but the afk player will not until he attacks. if you kill an afk player or a player that wont fight back you will get a penalty (no use of waypoints and all Players will be able to attack/kill you without doing into battle) this will last 5m per afk player killed.
2. Guilds - No friendly fire between guild mates!!! Guilds will actually mean something woot!
Maybe add an option for Guild alliances. Same no friendly fire applies to allies.
3. Party members will be the same as a guild, no friendly fire between party members.
Everytime I fight a warrior I see “immune” “immune” “immune” “0” “0” while they outpressure me hard and I’m not able to do anything about it besides my two dodges. You cannot CC them while they can stunlock you and do tons of dmg even with their BOW (!). So what exactly do you do against them? I’ve played necro now for 700 spvp games and I can handle almost every class except warriors.
I have a few recorded fights vs warriors both condi and power but they are in wvw (OS)
3. how i said in my post. dodging bullsrush destroys the whole burst combo. the same goes for a lot of raw dmg bursts but for this example its the easiest to show. on the other hand dodging 1 aa just negates the condiapplication of that aa, but not the condiapplication via trait or sigills or runes. if the attack isnt hitting, the traits ( some have no cooldown) and runes dont go on cooldown. as example you could fight against a necro with dhuumfire and dodge 90% of his attacks. u would still get burned.
There is absolutely no difference in dodging/blocking/immunity-avoiding direct damage and conditions.
AA deals direct damage -> you dodge the damage.
AA deals condition -> you dodge the condition -> you dodge the damage.
Attacker deals 5-6 attacks of direct damage burst -> you dodge the damage.
Attacker deals 5-6 abilities to apply conditions -> you dodge the applications -> you dodge the damage.
Seriously, there’s no difference. Conditions don’t magically appear on you, they’re applied by attacks. The same attacks which would apply direct damage if you don’t dodge them.
sure, cause power builds only kill with aa.. thats why dodge is equal in both dmg parts.
/sarcasm
yeah sigills dont trigger on powerbuilds too if u dodge the attack. unless condibuilds these sigills only inflict a small part of the dmg the power build can dish out whereas on condibuilds the are devasting and a big part on the dmg..
after all that reading i now understand u both think dhuumfire and all the other firetraits on crit are a good idea. apply a hard hitting not avoidable condi. lol
to blind from condis to think properly i guess.
actually I want dumbfire removed lol
it only promotes spam which is not how I personally play, but since dumbfire bring the optimal damage output and it is also the most complained about trait a condi class has I used it in examples.
Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.
Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.
Are they OP? not at all
You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.
Im pretty sure a ptv necro can still out dps a full dire necro.
with dhumfire and terror? I highly doubt it.
ok, ill make record another dps test.
I have already made a few (zerkers and valk amlulets)
Im not really sure where I can test my dps in wvw/pve and besides I only have a full dire set and no zerker/ptv gear. I only have a mix of valk/knights gear which is why I do most of my recorded tests in pvp area.
find a vet or elite in cursed shore or the 80 part of frostgorge or a dungeon.. dungeon prolly best, you can exit and re-enter and get a respawn
rares are pretty cheap.. if only i could log in and send you 10g for a couple rare sets :/ #brickedcomputer
ill try to get the vids out tonight. let me know is this type of builds are going to be ok to finally end the arguments of Condi is OP compared to power builds.
im really wondering how much the combined effects of huge armor ratings in wvw + pizza + psyching out / cleansing too early are skewing our perception. quite frankly ive never felt like a burden going condi build in fractals, but i never ran with a bunch of omgsuperpro zerkers... just friends who often had zerk gear. (i like power more than condi engi).
Condi builds in pve just dont have the dps compared to a zerk build or if my test go as I suspect even a non zerk power build.
in wvw most of the complaints are from roamers/small group (1-10) where conditions might be an issue if you dont have anything to counter them.
in a gvg setting you can use condition classes but you will need 3 (necro’s) to be able to break the aoe removal and have your bleeds/psn corrupted boons do its damage. while 1 power well necro can cause a similar affect on the group but the damage they do is front loaded burst you can say.
Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.
Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.
Are they OP? not at all
You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.
Im pretty sure a ptv necro can still out dps a full dire necro.
with dhumfire and terror? I highly doubt it.
ok, ill make record another dps test.
I have already made a few (zerkers and valk amlulets)
Im not really sure where I can test my dps in wvw/pve and besides I only have a full dire set and no zerker/ptv gear. I only have a mix of valk/knights gear which is why I do most of my recorded tests in pvp area.
find a vet or elite in cursed shore or the 80 part of frostgorge or a dungeon.. dungeon prolly best, you can exit and re-enter and get a respawn
rares are pretty cheap.. if only i could log in and send you 10g for a couple rare sets :/ #brickedcomputer
ill try to get the vids out tonight. let me know is this type of builds are going to be ok to finally end the arguments of Condi is OP compared to power builds.
Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.
Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.
Are they OP? not at all
You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.
Im pretty sure a ptv necro can still out dps a full dire necro.
with dhumfire and terror? I highly doubt it.
ok, ill make record another dps test.
I have already made a few (zerkers and valk amlulets)
Im not really sure where I can test my dps in wvw/pve and besides I only have a full dire set and no zerker/ptv gear. I only have a mix of valk/knights gear which is why I do most of my recorded tests in pvp area.
Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.
Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.
Are they OP? not at all
You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.
Im pretty sure a ptv necro can still out dps a full dire necro.
But it’s so easy to reapply it, and not so easy to repeatdley cleanse..
some builds are able to repeatedly cleanse. just like some builds are able to tank/block a lot of damage. there is no best at everything build.
I once fought a S/F ele which took at around 5 and a half minutes before one of us was downed.
I don’t even use “Foot in the Grave.” I have 0 Stability and run in zergs with no problem. I really don’t want that to sound egotistical I’m just saying that I’m wondering in what instance is everyone running into so many stuns that it is necessary. Maybe that’s a better way to phrase it.
As a disclaimer I have one “get out of jail free” card which is the trait “Reapers Protection” (fear enemies when disabled) and it has always been enough.
I saw Zerg and I understood why you dont have an issue.
try running in a small group or solo then come back and let us know if you still feel the same.
in order for you to deal 10k+ damage from that 1 skill you will need about 2.6k condi damage. which as a warrior not very hard to do because you guys can stack might with out much trouble.
Maybe someone can enlighten me on why so much stability is necessary? I personally don’t think it’s an issue. I think it’s fairly obvious our class was designed to use fear and Spectral armor as a means of negation rather than stability because stability creates maneuverability which isn’t a design focus for this class anyways.
spectral armor only gives us a little breathing room but protection will only help so much. our heals are around 1s cast time which is plenty of time to stun/knockback/fear.
Fear while is a great tool, is basically countered by stability and condi removal. which many classes have enough of one or the other.
Guess what. While it favors power, its also decent for condi.
that’s the issue, aside from taking 30 in SR or using our elites which have a 180s cd we dont have any way to gain stability for ourselves.
Well.. we can also cast well of power to get 1 second of stability and then on the small chance we are feared and well of power is cast we will also get some stability.
Also.. 20 seconds of stability in plague and 30 seconds in lich are really good… the only thing is that the stability goes away once the transformation ends… i rarely stay in either one of them for the full duration… so it would be nice for that not to happen. But either way even being in the transformation for the full duration you get around 10 to 15% stability up times in fights that you use these.
yea but you are not able to really so much in plague exept soak up damage to 20s, also ranged attacks will keep damaging you and lich form you are locked out of your heals so you will die if you are focused by any decent group (you turn into a very large target lol)
People need to realize how easy it is to reapply conditions. We need more cleanses.
No you need to learn when to cleanse conditions.
1-3 stacks of bleeds will tickle many classes and many players will clear them, then they complain that all of a sudden we burst them with 10+ bleeds and 4 other conditions, if you learn to time your cleanse much like you learn to dodge a big attack the damage you take is minimal.
I think the issue is that when comparing condis to power buids, everyone seems to compare zerkers to rabid for some reason where as they should be comparing berserker to rampager, rabid to knights, and clerics to apothecary. Of course a zerker is going to do more dps then a rabid or apothecay but he’s gonna have zero sustain. The real question is do apothecary and rabid builds do too much damage for their sustain?
Zerkers are not meant to have a lot of sustained damage, its meant to be upfront burst damage back out and repeat.
a Ham/bow warr is what a class/build that has a lot of sustain and burst when needed.
a bunker guard can out sustain a condi class while doing decent damage and protecting their team.
OP overall your build is very glassy even with protection.
I can see you are trying to go for a hybrid zerk/condi spec but you just cant do that and survive much in spvp with the current amulet system.
Like I said, I’m down to duel anyone on it, so bring your PU build or other warrior builds. I want someone to be able to beat it so I know it’s not a god build. As of so far no one has been able to conquer it, which is very very sad. And I’ve had close to 50-60 duel me in eotm after watching this video.
Conditions are not too powerful. only time conditions are good is when there is little condi removal.
it kills slower than a power tanky build, you need to use most of your skills to attain that kind of damage while a power build will most of the time spam 11111 with 2-3 other skills to out dps conditions.
thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers
was thinkin about this some more… couple questions about the condi vid:
no fear mark? it seems like huge 1080 ticks would be better burst than the last couple autos you did.
ds 5? same thing, 1 cast for equivalent of 4.5 bleed stacks…. the golem is moving while feared. is 2.25 bleeds while immob’d better than 1 autoattack?
more a comment but.. you were pretty unlucky on crits and didnt get burn on till like the last couple secs. so you were still ramping up damage by the time the golem died. not too sure how youd go about accounting for that, except to look for a bigger hp sack.
OK, no problem. When I get a chance I will also try to add torment and another fear in the mix to see how much faster it will be. But keep in mind, that with be an extra 2 skills used making it a total of 9 compared to the 4 my power build used.
i like you, youre interested in optimal play
its good for science
good luck
thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers
was thinkin about this some more… couple questions about the condi vid:
no fear mark? it seems like huge 1080 ticks would be better burst than the last couple autos you did.
ds 5? same thing, 1 cast for equivalent of 4.5 bleed stacks…. the golem is moving while feared. is 2.25 bleeds while immob’d better than 1 autoattack?
more a comment but.. you were pretty unlucky on crits and didnt get burn on till like the last couple secs. so you were still ramping up damage by the time the golem died. not too sure how youd go about accounting for that, except to look for a bigger hp sack.
OK, no problem. When I get a chance I will also try to add torment and another fear in the mix to see how much faster it will be. But keep in mind, that with be an extra 2 skills used making it a total of 9 compared to the 4 my power build used.
Torment with my condi dmg (2016) hits for 107-214 per stack.
So 10s of 5 stacks would do 5350 to a non moving target. Please can u let us know how much hp u have?
thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers
the condi equivalent of zerk would be condi dmg / prec / condi duration... why do you think rabid vs zerk is a valid comparison? i think valk would be more applicable. or maybe spvp knights.
Duration means next to nothing in a pvp environment due to condi removal.
thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers
So you weigh in the effectiveness of a condi-rabid but don’t realize the effective defense it brings?
Effectively, that is why glass cannons are considered glass since you know they lack vitality or toughness.
I also weigh in the fact that the golem has 0 condi removal/immunity.
Also its a heavy golem. (not sure how much armor) and the Power build still did that kind of damage.
Just an FYI if you watch the 6m vid, the first time I killed the golem with power I was still using undead runes......still 6s kill
The ones who know how overpowered SA is, will even admit to it being OP.
