You can target them. But they are probably going to be behind you meaning your tab will pick something else first, most likely. Best way to beat a thief is being mobile and slowing or stunning them, and also not being a glass cannon.
3k armor, 24k health. I still drop before being able to hit them. I run constantly spin, dodge etc. I can never target them. They cant be behind me every time.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.
Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.
I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.
You don’t buy what? Stealth durations? Go to the wiki and look it up
If you are not seeing them its culling, it’s an Anet side problem and has nothing to do with how good you computer is.
ok, so since i can’t tab target them, and I can’t see them, how is it different than stealth again since they can stealth soon thereafter and I never can target them?
It isn’t, but why is that a reason to nerf a class, when culling is already being worked on? Opinions are nice, but yours isn’t helping. Be patient. Wait, and it will all get fixed eventually.
You don’t nerf a class because of a broken game mechanic that can be fixed. You fix that game mechanic.
BTW, you can tab target them, as it neglects culling, but tab targetting only works on targets in your line of sight, where he is not likely to be.
sorry. It’s just that wvw is miserable when I can never see them, and we’ve been waiting for months for a fix. Tab targetting doesn’t work even with line of sight with them. I’ve tried. never get a target despite turning 360 degrees.
I haven’t seen proof that this can be fixed, and many of us are just leaving wvwvw because of it. Why not adjust stealth just for wvwvw until it’s fixed versus losing other players?
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.
Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.
I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.
You don’t buy what? Stealth durations? Go to the wiki and look it up
If you are not seeing them its culling, it’s an Anet side problem and has nothing to do with how good you computer is.
ok, so since i can’t tab target them, and I can’t see them, how is it different than stealth again since they can stealth soon thereafter and I never can target them?
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.
Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.
I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.
Going to attempt to clear things up.
Attacks break stealth(well most, there are some bugs and attacks that don’t, such as caldrops and choking gas. Any direct attacks break stealth immediately, the ones you are experiencing). The reason why he still seems to be invisible is because of culling, which is being worked on and hopefully fixed in the future. If as system’s worked as intended, as soon as the thief strikes you should see him. Unfortunately do to the nature of running hundreds of players on a server, culling has to be put in place to prevent performance drops across the board.
No, they don’t break stealth. Maybe they are supposed to, but they don’t.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.
Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.
I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
I am concerned about the impact to balance, particularly thief class balance. I hope that there are no additional stealth abililities being added. It’s enough of a problem as it is.
Dude i hate to be captain obvious here but think about your question lol.
Theifs arent going to get another stealth……………………………..
:)
What’s your point? There’s nothing obvious about what skills they may add. My point is that they should not make the current thief balance issues worse with these rewards.
this isnt a class QQ thread good lord GTFO………….
Stealth refers to a skill for more than one class.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
I am concerned about the impact to balance, particularly thief class balance. I hope that there are no additional stealth abililities being added. It’s enough of a problem as it is.
Dude i hate to be captain obvious here but think about your question lol.
Theifs arent going to get another stealth……………………………..
:)
What’s your point? There’s nothing obvious about what skills they may add. My point is that they should not make the current thief balance issues worse with these rewards.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
I don’t get the argument that if something is properly balanced, anet must compensate. If its properly balanced, then by definition nothing is needed to compensate. It means that the prior 6 months of being imbalanced is the compensation.
The argument is that nerfing stealth will make thieves underpowered because they have the least ways to deal with taking damage in the game.
Any nerfs would make them underpowered? I don’t really agree. Add half a second on to a stealth cool down as a start. Make gradual changes from there and reevaluate. I don’t favor a sledgehammer approach.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
I don’t get the argument that if something is properly balanced, anet must compensate. If its properly balanced, then by definition nothing is needed to compensate. It means that the prior 6 months of being imbalanced is the compensation.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
I am concerned about the impact to balance, particularly thief class balance. I hope that there are no additional stealth abililities being added. It’s enough of a problem as it is.
I think everyone knows how you feel about stealth. I also think this is being addressed by culling fixes. We also need to wait and see in detail what these abilities are going to be.
I’d fix culling before Introducing any new abilities for thieves.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
I am concerned about the impact to balance, particularly thief class balance. I hope that there are no additional stealth abililities being added. It’s enough of a problem as it is.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Not sure why people claim that thieves are better geared than other classes to explain the WvWvW imbalances. Why would they be? Also, culling benefits thieves more than it does other classes. If it can’t be fixed, then steps will need to be taken.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
First, you would still be able to backstab people, because they would only have a small fraction of time to counter it, but it would give them the possibility that doesn’t exist now.
Thief could never land a backstab because anyone who isn’t unspeakably bad would be able to turn with the thief and face them at all times.
In WvWvW, not true. Especially with culling and with tons of other enemies. It would just be a little more challenging than now.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
…The suggestion is that when a invisible thief comes too close of the enemy he turns visible …
Thief is primarily melee and you want stealth to break when they come into melee range?
You talk like you stay in stealth while in melee combat and it is not true. While playing D/D, for example, you will enter stealth to land a backstab and not much else. After that you will have your debuff.
Your suggestion was to break stealth simply by being close, so you’d basically land C&D, stealth and immediately become revealed, without ever getting around to backstab. And even without revealed debuff, you can never land a backstab on anyone who’s able to see you, unless they’re complete fools, so you’d either have to toss the requirement to hit from behind and just always give the full backstab damage.
You can not have semi-stealth, it just doesn’t work because being visible, even slightly, is simply being visible.
It works in other games. I don’t see why this one is so special.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
I didnt read all of this ofc but for those that say stealth should brake on damage i can only say to eat a kitten lol. Do you realize how different is thief from other games rogues ( wow for example, where stealth drops on damage) and how different is game on itself, its aoe, auto attack mechanic ? While it works finr on wow, in gw2 it would completally destroy thief class. And that is not thieves defending, thats common sence.
This actually makes little sense. So perma stealth is ok because the mechanics are different? I’m sorry, but I don’t think it’s ever ok to be invisible throughout a fight.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
First off, all the people saying thieves are OP and needs nerfing, have you guys played in SPvP where things are actually equal and there’s no culling issue? People have been repeating it over and over about thieves not being an issue in real PvP situations. All the complaint is in WvW as far as I can tell. Now, what’s a more accurate way for Anet to balance around? WvW, where many weak players are often at? Or from SPvP where more competitive PvP players are at?
That’s a something for you guys asking for an overhaul on thieves to think about.
There’s zero evidence that Spvp has better players. Very presumptuous on your part.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Thief after being downed don’t have ability to run into the structure and recover in safety like ele – imho ability to use portals should be removed from vapour form skill because it’s unfair
They are just inivisible. That’s actually worse.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Minor problem? Hardly. At times it is even game-breaking.
Hordes of Elementalists (they really are the flavour of the month in WvW) coming to defend the keep your attacking. You can’t stop them entering and they can harass you without fear of reprisal as long as they are within running distance to the gate portal.
It really shouldn’t allow you to enter the portals. No other class can pull this cheesy move off. It is imbalanced.
I see many more thieves than I do elementalists in wvwvw, and i think the permastealth issues are far more game breaking than are portal issues.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Whatever the cause – mechanics, or culling, this issue, where a very high dps class is invisible most of the time must be fixed. No other pvp game has had stealth done this way.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
things that prevent kills don’t bother me nearly as much as do broken mechanics that guarantee that other can kill me. Therefore, I really don’t have an issue with this, cheesy though it may be. I am much more concerned about things like perma stealth.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Thieves shouldn’t be able to move 50% faster in stealth as well as damage doesn’t break stealth, that just gives them a chance to run away miles down the road if things go bad for them.
They can’t have 50% speed in stealth combined with stealth that can’t be broken.
Don’t forget also yhat they loose conditions when entering stealth too.
Wow. I didn’t know that they lost conditions when they stealthed. That’s a nice perk.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Personally I think they should nerf thieves to kitten until culling is fixed but not for the reason you think. From experience thieves tend to be rather… vocal, so if the collective whole of thieves suddenly feel the awful pain of their class suffering they’ll raise one hell of a cry and maybe MAYBE convince the development team to get around to addressing culling with some semblance of urgency (come on, it does seem like this has been going on a LONG time and it is a game breaking (in WvW at least) issue)
Better sustained damage and burst on par with warriors and most other burst damage classes: Issue resolved
Why does everyone use warriors as the baseline for massive DPS, they’re not the highest DPS class in either burst or sustained, I don’t get it.
I really could argue the point that warriors are the highest burst damage class in the game, and close to the highest sustained damage as well. That is unless you can show me any other class that can hit multiple targets for close to 28K damage in under 4 seconds. In their “Glass Cannon” build a warrior can do upwards of 18K with a SINGLE ATTACK both in melee and at the same range as a rangers long bow to boot, and still has better damage mitigation, survival and 10K more HP than a glass cannon Thief. If Warriors are “Balanced” where they are at then thieves are clearly not even close to balanced.
People do not seem capable of understanding how the class works. What a Thief has to sacrifice to do the same thing many other classes can do with out having to sacrifice anything at all, but still not do it nearly as well.
Thieves are quickly becoming relegated to obscurity and are even flat out refused groups in some Dungeons because they die to easy and cannot compete with the damage of many other classes. Put them side by side with most other classes and you see:
A class with with 6 to 10K less hit points than any other classes “Glass Cannon”. Even when they are not running a glass cannon build……
A class that does less damage regardless of build.
A class that has less survivability, No invulnerability skill, One condition removal skill that takes 3 seconds to kick in only if the trait is taken. Which usually means you are dead any way.
Has to sacrifice almost all of its below par melee damage to deal below par condition damage.
And has had so many of its abilities nerfed that players are forced to play gimmick builds like C&D or glass cannon spam builds in order to have any value or success in WvW or Spvp.
Thieves have many abilities that cost 4-5 initiative that do LESS DAMAGE than their auto attack… Pistol whip is an excellent example of this. Death blossom deals less damage and 1/4 the bleed duration/damage than a warriors auto attack with a long sword. Yes a warrior does more melee and bleed damage with their auto attack than a thief using 5 initiative skill.
No other class in the game is required to sacrifice as much to accomplish less.
Not even going to go into all the specifics of how you’re mistaken here but I will say that you’re opinion of warrior DPS is way off from anything resembling the truth and I do admire how you deliberately avoided mentioning any of a thieves strengths in your attempt to make them look maligned and looked down upon (which they’re not), that was… impressive.
Also while I can agree that thieves could use some love in PvE what really concerns me is their massively lopsided abilities in WvW and that is what I would really REALLY like addressed (it’s making me avoid this game like the plague, I hate getting taken out by a crappy thief just because he found me at an inopportune time knowing that I have no recourse against him)
This is the issue for me. Nearly every visit to WvWvW winds up annoying me now because I constantly have to deal with thieves whom I can never see. Many of us just avoid WvWvW now because of this. We need clear deadlines on the culling fix since thieves seem to disproportionately benefit from it. If it can’t be fixed, then other measures are needed. It’s sad that we have to run in packs of 5 to survive one thief. It may be fun for thieves, but it’s miserable for others.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Other games seem to do just fine with stealth breaking on damage or on them doing damage. I don’t understand why Anet feels the need to make stealth far more powerful in this game vs other games who have years of pvp experience, particularly since this game already gives extra stealth from culling. It just isn’t logical. Since this is a thread about thieves and their game play, I hope this isn’t deleted too.
Other games aren’t choke full of PBAoE, ground targeted AoE and basic autoattacks that can be used without target and hits anything in a huge cone in front of the player.
It would also make the Dagger 5 skill C&D practically non functional as it is since it’d be impossible to get a hit without getting booted out of stealth 0.2s latter by some random mashed attack button.
sure they are. dark age of camelot, aion and warhammer all had massive aoe. somehow thieves/sins did well.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
IMHO one change will balance thieves and reduce all the hate on them. Just make so that when a stealthed thief takes damage its puts them out of stealth, either by direct damage or aoe. They can keep all the damage and burst they have. WoW rogues have permanent stealth by default but are revealed when they are hit and WAR had the same mechanic. What were Anet devs thinking?
This has been suggested far too often. It essentially gimp pretty much every thief build that isn’t BS glass cannon. And effectively banish them from high level pve zones with lots of aoe, large scale fights in wvw and dungeons.
Thieves don’t survive off of armour, or protective boons, the survive by not getting hit, and they have to do it actively. No throwing up aegis or defensive stances, it’s either they use an evade skill, dodge roll or throw up a blind if they have one, otherwise even tanky thieves are taking the full hit.
Other games seem to do just fine with stealth breaking on damage or on them doing damage. I don’t understand why Anet feels the need to make stealth far more powerful in this game vs other games who have years of pvp experience, particularly since this game already gives extra stealth from culling. It just isn’t logical. Since this is a thread about thieves and their game play, I hope this isn’t deleted too.
What part of Its a rendering and culling issue is so hard to grasp? What part of its a game programing issue is so hard to grasp? You are asking them to nerf a skill because of a game bug. Why not ask them to FIX THE BUG. I know that’s really asking a lot from the QQ bandwagon, but that one thing would resolve 90% of your QQ in one hit.
The other 10% are just going to QQ because they have nothing better to do and are not smart enough to use dodge.
If they keep nerfing the Thief its going to become almost unplayable. Once that happens they will have to fix it and that will probably come in the form of increased damage then the same people that are QQing about stealth will be here QQing about thief damage.
You do realize that Mesmer invis does exactly the same thing and has the exact same culling and rendering bugs don’t you? The difference being a Thief can stealth them self or up to 5 targets using refuge. A Mesmer can do much more than that. When 20+ people come out of Mass Invisibility the issues caused there are 10 times worse than any Thief can create.
So how about we get more QQ about the rendering bug and culling.
thieves really haven’t been nerfed in a meaningful way though.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
IMHO one change will balance thieves and reduce all the hate on them. Just make so that when a stealthed thief takes damage its puts them out of stealth, either by direct damage or aoe. They can keep all the damage and burst they have. WoW rogues have permanent stealth by default but are revealed when they are hit and WAR had the same mechanic. What were Anet devs thinking?
This has been suggested far too often. It essentially gimp pretty much every thief build that isn’t BS glass cannon. And effectively banish them from high level pve zones with lots of aoe, large scale fights in wvw and dungeons.
Thieves don’t survive off of armour, or protective boons, the survive by not getting hit, and they have to do it actively. No throwing up aegis or defensive stances, it’s either they use an evade skill, dodge roll or throw up a blind if they have one, otherwise even tanky thieves are taking the full hit.
Other games seem to do just fine with stealth breaking on damage or on them doing damage. I don’t understand why Anet feels the need to make stealth far more powerful in this game vs other games who have years of pvp experience, particularly since this game already gives extra stealth from culling. It just isn’t logical. Since this is a thread about thieves and their game play, I hope this isn’t deleted too.
In other games evasion is a statistic, thieves usually have a high evasion statistic and skills that make them more likely to passively evade. A good example of one of these skills in GW1 would be the skill Shroud of Distress, for 54 seconds if your health is below 50%, you have 7 regeneration and a 75% chance to block.
In guild wars 2, if the sword or aoe hits you, you’re hit, unless you have something like block, aegis, distortion up, or the attacker is blinded or are evading. Few attack in the game require a target as well, making crossfire a common occurance.
So enter thief, only has evades and blinds to avoid damage, evades are only good for dodging and can’t be used passively, and blinds are only effective for one enemy attack and since it’s very hard to inflict everyone in the area with blind at once, it’s basically a weak version of aegis that’s no good against groups.
The reason thieves can survive with such weak defenses is stealth. Stealth has no statistical way to mitigate damage, it just makes is harder for thieves to be targetted precisely, they still have to dodge attacks in steath, they just aren’t the focus of the attack.
thieves have good dodge and evasion in this game too. and you aren’t supposed to survive against whole groups
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
IMHO one change will balance thieves and reduce all the hate on them. Just make so that when a stealthed thief takes damage its puts them out of stealth, either by direct damage or aoe. They can keep all the damage and burst they have. WoW rogues have permanent stealth by default but are revealed when they are hit and WAR had the same mechanic. What were Anet devs thinking?
This has been suggested far too often. It essentially gimp pretty much every thief build that isn’t BS glass cannon. And effectively banish them from high level pve zones with lots of aoe, large scale fights in wvw and dungeons.
Thieves don’t survive off of armour, or protective boons, the survive by not getting hit, and they have to do it actively. No throwing up aegis or defensive stances, it’s either they use an evade skill, dodge roll or throw up a blind if they have one, otherwise even tanky thieves are taking the full hit.
Other games seem to do just fine with stealth breaking on damage or on them doing damage. I don’t understand why Anet feels the need to make stealth far more powerful in this game vs other games who have years of pvp experience, particularly since this game already gives extra stealth from culling. It just isn’t logical. Since this is a thread about thieves and their game play, I hope this isn’t deleted too.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
that bow damage is better than ranger bow damage. sorry, perma stealth, best dps and highest run speeds makes this class stupidly overpowered right now.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
So 6k attacks and perma stealth are possible. So if an enemy has 18k health, they can die without ever seeing their enemy? Weren’t we told that this was impossible?
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
I thought we were scolded that perma stealth is impossible? I thought it was only possible with exploiting the culling bug.
True perma-stealth is entirely possible with Black Powder + 3 Heartseekers, although slightly difficult to pull off (try landing 3 Heartseekers in that smoke field without hitting anything – it’s not so easy).
With expert timing and target selection, back-to-back Cloak and Daggers never expose the Thief for more than a fraction of a second; which is for all intents and purposes "perma-stealth”.
The former method does not require a target but leaves a tell-tale smoke field. The latter method requires a clean hit; no misses, no blinds, no blocks.
Don’t expect perma-stealth to go away once culling issues are fixed; more experienced Thieves will be minimally affected.
thank you. what tradeoffs must they make for true perma stealth?
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Permastealthing thieves are what keep me from returning to WvWvW. Just tired of never seeing or hitting my attacker. I don’t know how anet considers this fun for non stealth classes.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Run with your combat log open. It shows damage and hits even on invisible targets.
Oh, I do. My aoe still rarely generates damage. Thanks for the feedback. Could you also share what other classes require this level of anticipation of what the enemy might do next, or go next?
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
Thieves can’t be hit when they are stealth, which buff or trait is that?
Four out of five attack spells require you to target the opponent to actually attack him. You might as well throw AOE spells in there too since you need to see your target to know where to put the aoe. Tell me, which trait or buff can I take to target a stealthed thief?
You’re looking for a mechanical solution to a behavioral problem. The fact is that there are only a few skills in the entire game that can’t be manually aimed. Stop relying on GW2’s version of aim-assist and stealth stops being such a crushing mechanic. Most people don’t even attempt to learn how to manually aim their attacks, and stealth punishes that more than anything.
I am really trying to understand this. I cannot target what I cannot see, so I would appreciate your tips as to how to overcome that limitation. I use plenty of aoe and constantly move too, trying to follow puffs of smoke, but the aoes rarely hit any enemy. What do you suggest.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
This is why glass cannon thief builds are OP — I was on my Hunter who has a complete set of exotics with +Vitality and +Toughness in additional to jewelry as well Build spec with +300 vitality … I literally died instantaneous (see attached screenshot).
Glass cannon or not, a build is excessively OP when it can dish out 22,000 dmg in less than 1 second.
I assume you mean ranger. Yes, with full bunker build on my ranger. (27K vitality, 3k armor) I still drop in 2 seconds. I never see the attacker either. My poor pet doesn’t attack either because no enemy is visible.
only thieves know how to play, they chant “L2P” every time their god mode is challenged.
.
