Guild Wars 2

ErazorZ.5209:

Im getting kinda tired awnsering this question over and over again.
Chill and slows stop that, as about half of this thread is trying to explain. The only way to get reliable condi clear is to trait for it and sadly the only condi clear we have are all on defensive traitlines.
My current build works because i can spec into 3 traitlines that are all pretty offensive traited. But they have 0 possibilities for me to clear condi. In my opinion ANY form of DPS with ele is nullified by this alone. You are forced to take at the very least earth or water to get some condi clears going.

The problem here is you’re assuming you should be able to get away with taking 0 defensives and still be able out sustain people.

Elementalists have the capabilities to handle reapers. You have the ability to kite, and reaper’s ability to apply chill at range is lackluster, and could easily be handled by taking any number of cleanse options a ele has available.

You simply choose not to.

To turn your argument around, your argument is equivalent to me running a power necro build with no chill or boon corrupts and complaining that eles are OP.

Daddicus.6128:

But, if 5 people die and WP out, they’ve done enough damage already that the boss dies quickly with the 5 remaining. THAT is the exploit. I’ve seen it happen more than once.

Except it’s still a DPS loss compared to having 10 alive people.

Waypointing on death has nothing to do with glass or not, Waypointing on death happens because rezzing completely dead people is often impractical to impossible.

SlayerSixx.5763:

The issue, I believe, is their ability to drop their burst and then basically run in circles until it kills you.

As compared to a power build’s ability to drop their burst and kill you right then?

Huttunen.8309:

I wasn’t even talking about evading and blocks? Of course you can evade and block most of the attacks. The thing is that there’s no condis or boons but just resistance which help against condis.

Except there are several other tools for dealing with condis outside of resistance.

There are runes and traits that reduce condi duration
There are numerous abilities that can clear condis/convert to boon
There are some sigils and classes can even transfer condis back to the enemy.

The tools for dealing with condis is there. Heck I would argue that there is significantly more counterplay against condis than against power.

Warlord.9074:

The rate at wihch condis can be applied is much higher than the rate at which condis can be cleared.

If people could clear condis as fast as they are applied then condition builds would be completely and utterly worthless.

Rezzet.3614:

shroud+50% slower repletion trait = your invuln
as for mobility theres a trait that grants 33% reduction on cc and 66% reduction on shroud and its an Adept trait
Reaper form #3 = pulsing stability
so pretty much almost immune to all cc there is as well as damage unless hard focused by 3 players
as far as movement speed theres many choices
Runes,Sigils,Signet,Dagger trait,Shroud Trait and more

Shroud is a health pool, not a invuln. Invuln implies damage negation. You can burn straight through shroud just like any other HP pool.

The reduction trait is if I recall correctly, only affects immobs, chill, and cripple, not cc in general.

Also some of the more cc heavy classes can push cc through reaper #3, and for the record reaper #3 doesn’t actually last all that long. It only pulses 1 stack at a time.

No common necro builds use daggers. The signet passive is laughable especially once you consider that most classes have access to 25% movement speed passives, on top of other mobility options. The shroud trait is rarely used.

ErazorZ.5209:

Crinn.7864

You made a risk/reward choice. The reward is the damage, the risk is that you’re absurdly vulnerable to condi classes and classes with good burst defense.

My personal class and build performs poorly against thieves and some scrapper and warrior builds. That was a risk/reward choice that I made.

I am very well aware of this. And if there was counterplay i would seize it with both hands. Versus any class theres counterplay even with condi, Except necro.

I wanted to show you guys some gameplay footage of me playing, judge for yourself how bad am i at this game;

https://youtu.be/mvbX_GDNPU4

…..a 500 to 150 match, against projectile heavy classes. That’s a terrible example to be judging any ele’s skill by.

Besides you miss the point, necros have counterplay, however your build lacks all of the tools necessary to execute on the counterplay

Huttunen.8309:

Against condis there’s nothing like this.

That’s actually false. Conditions have to be applied. Condi applying abilities can be blocked and evaded.

The problem with condis is that since they deal damage over time, many players don’t learn to associate the condis with the abilities that apply them. The players only notice the condis after they are applied.

A player encounters a DH trap and all this blue crap comes out of the ground and instagibs them, that player immediately learns that blue crap needs to be evaded/blocked.
However when a player encounters a condi build, they typically don’t notice anything until after the condi build has stacked up everything, which means the player completely misses what abilities applied the condis.

ErazorZ.5209:

Crinn.7864:

So you’re running beserker with no condi clear, and you’re surprised that you have trouble with a condi class?

Also necros have terrible sustain, they do however have a huge health pool (when they have LF anyways) which gives them very good burst survivability, which is why your zerk build isn’t bursting them.

Basically you’re running the absolute worst build for fighting necros.

Its the only way how you can even play damage as an ele, The other amulets just dont give that oompf to scepter because scepter DPS is extremely lackluster.

You made a risk/reward choice. The reward is the damage, the risk is that you’re absurdly vulnerable to condi classes and classes with good burst defense.

My personal class and build performs poorly against thieves and some scrapper and warrior builds. That was a risk/reward choice that I made.

ErazorZ.5209:

Because ive searched all my traits in my current setup, and literally nothing of the traits im using has any condi clear.

So you’re running beserker with no condi clear, and you’re surprised that you have trouble with a condi class?

Also necros have terrible sustain, they do however have a huge health pool (when they have LF anyways) which gives them very good burst survivability, which is why your zerk build isn’t bursting them.

Basically you’re running the absolute worst build for fighting necros.

Daddicus.6128:

Palador.2170:

But it DOESN’T work, and that’s why it’s not an exploit.

The vast majority of posters here disagree with you. They’re the ones who say “when fully dead, waypoint out and run back”. And, they claim to have all kinds of data to support that argument.

I don’t agree with them, but this thread is to determine whether, if it DOES work, SHOULD it work?

NOTE: There are people who won’t rez dead people because of this effect. So, there’s a very real effect in-game, regardless of whether it is true or not.

People tell you to run back when fully dead because trying to rez fully dead people often results in the rezzers ending up dead, which can lead to a total wipe in very sort order.
Even excluding the risk to the rezzers on some fights such as tequatl it simply isn’t possible to rez people as fast as people die.

Rezzing from downstate is about the only time people should be rezzing while in combat, the exception being if there is a lull between fight phases.

Rezzet.3614:

All professions have a form of invulnerability

I’m still trying to figure out where my necro’s invulnerability skill is.

Skyhammer is “bad for competition?”

Wow, in all the other game’s I’ve played the correct response to someone complaining about being punted off an edge was to tell them to stop putting their backs to a cliff when fighting someone with a knockback.

Positioning is hard.

Tim.6450:

Crinn.7864:

Can we just stop using the word “spam?” It gets so overused on these boards that I feel like the word has lost all meaning.

I mean really we have people complaining about:
Condi spam
Boon spam
Evade spam
CC spam
DH trap spam
DH trueshot spam
Autoattack spam
Boon corrupt spam
Chill spam
AoE spam
etc.

It has no meaning: this entire game is based around skill spamming.

Isn’t every game about skill spamming?

Can we just stop using the word “spam?” It gets so overused on these boards that I feel like the word has lost all meaning.

I mean really we have people complaining about:
Condi spam
Boon spam
Evade spam
CC spam
DH trap spam
DH trueshot spam
Autoattack spam
Boon corrupt spam
Chill spam
AoE spam
etc.

Astralporing.1957:

Stand The Wall.6987:

Also you dont have to pay repetitively to stay on top.

We’ll see about that when the next expac arrives.
And the “relatively cheap” isn’t really. It’s quite expensive, in fact (though i agree that it may be relative).

My expectation is the next Expac will include new elite specs of equivalent power to current elite specs.

I think it’s fairly obvious from how elite specs are implemented that they want everyone to run 1 elite spec + 2 core specs, with elite specs being considered a “subclass” or “advanced class” of the main core class.

I noticed the OP waited until someone replied to the thread to completely change the content of the OP.

GG?

Vieux P.1238:

Your right.. Gw2 does offers more then the average f2p mmo out there. So why is it not the number 1 mmo out there. & why population arent sticking around after playing it for a wile? Can you explain that?

Do we actually know anything about f2p trends in this game? Especially in relation to PvP?

As far as I know Anet hasn’t said what this game stats are, but I do recall that when I used to play Bioware’s SW:TOR those devs stated at one point that less than 2% of that game’s PvP community was f2p. And anecdotally I think that game had a overall higher f2p representation than this simply due to being a subscription game.

Deathsilence.3408:

GW2 02/01/16 9pm {GW2 = non special target population}

BnS 02/01/16 9pm {BnS= Manga/Anime fan´s | the core game more PvP}

This is a bit of a tangent, but I need to stop you at guild wars not having a special target audience.

Guild Wars actually has a very specific target audience. GW2 is drawn on classic western epic themes, specifically the epic quest theme popularized by Tolken’s Lord of the Rings. Due to this GW2’s target audience is going to be limited to people raised in western culture. That’s a fairly hefty limitation, since western culture isn’t exactly friendly to the idea of competitive gaming. Then you have to add on the fact that GW2 has to compete directly with titles like WoW for the exact same niche.

BnS however is coming from Asia, and Asian culture is so much more friendly towards the idea of competitive gaming, and just gaming in general. Also games built on Asian culture convert better to western markets than western games convert to Asian markets.

Supreme.3164:

BUT…if you’re telling me that it takes any kind of skill to press one button every 5-6s and apply 5-6 condi on a target…I don’t know what to say, I must be having a nightmare

There are exactly 2 necro abilities capable of putting 5-6 condis on a target.
Signet of Spite and Plague Signet. Sig of Spite has a 48 second cooldown with traits, and Plague Signet has a 24 second cd and only works if you’re dumb enough to condibomb a Psig necro.

Lord Kuru.3685:

No pay for HoT ==> no win.

That’s precisely P2W.

No it’s not.
Pay2win is a specific term for a monetization scheme used by some free2play games based around micro transactions giving power boosts.

Heart of Thorns is buy2play, which is a totally different monetization scheme where players are expected to buy the game. You have to buy HoT to compete in HoT.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Can you use GS in Shroud? I thought you could only use Shroud skills….

No, and Reaper’s shroud doesn’t have a dark field at all, it only has an ice field.

To combo leeching bolts the necro has to drop a dark field (wells, GS#4) before going into shroud and then combo’ing it with a shroud ability.

Azure.8670:

Cerby.1069:

I’m crying….getting absolutely rekt by necromancers in WvsW now. This guy had like 20% health and most of his stuff on cd….I engage and he dodges the killhit and does cloak then lays his aoe everywhere. I hit berserker stance and immediately he strips it and I get hit by a hammer…..I use healing signet and he strips that immediately as well. arghhhhhhhh the pain. Hoelbraek runes are stupid….stupid stupid stupid why did I bother with them if this is what happens with 3 condition defenses and extra vitality and argh. /cry
I’m getting rekt by elementalists as well now….this one two shotted me with lightning from 22k hp to 2.5k hp

Im just trying to figure out where the hammer came from

Don’t you know about the OP hammer necro build?

Chicho Gosho.6507:

Omg PvP is dead again

Good thing we have lots of necros to make it undead.

[quote=5949705;Rezzet.3614:
wich goes back to my previous post
its conditions that are game breaking even more now that condi builds have access to 1056 power+1056 codi amulets [/quote]

..really?
Carrion Amulet (which has been around for ages) already had 900 power and 1200 condi damage, in addition to having way more vit.

bigmonto.4215:

You mean 50k health is not survivability. It seems that you are not playing the same game.

Even counting full life force necro’s don’t have 50k HP.

Besides HP isn’t survivability. HP just acts as a temporary damage sponge. To have sustained survivability you need lots of healing, or moderate healing pair with mitigation.
Necros have moderate healing and little to no mitigation.

geekilo.8512:

I believe Alacrity reduces ur CD at 40% before nerf, and Chill increases ur CD by 40%. If you have both of them on at the same time, they cancel each other.

@Duke idk if you ever have like 10s or 15s of Chill on you, but it’s really fun.

Lets say you have a ability that has a 10 sec CD. You have old alacrity reducing it’s CD by 66%

10-(10*0.66) = 3.4sec CD

Now lets say someone applies chill to you, thus increasing said CD by 66%.

3.4 + ( 3.4*0.66) = 5.644 sec CD

66% alacrity is not offset by chill.

Rezzet.3614:

Psyth.7605:

Hmm, choices, choices, choices. Condi Necros we’re op? Lol, 2-3 Condis now? They’re absolutely going to wreck-en-mass now. Cheers, for the update, but god is the qq going to be awful against us now.

what choices you got dont even need to bother with choice to make you can get both power and condi dps while being a fortress thanks to Mercenary amulet

1k power and condi and 560 toughness and vit
combine this with your 50% crit chance on shroud and rip people apart lol

Mercenary is just a Carrion amulet with toughness at the cost of condi power and vit.

Wolfs Shadow.7234:

Called it

Except I should change the title to necro the next epic meta :-D

We are only hours after a balance patch and you’re claiming vindication?

Metas don’t settle in hours.

mrauls.6519:

That’s because conditions don’t take as long to kill you

:P

That’s not how damage taken works.
Besides Condi burst potential is much lower than power burst potential.

Every time I look at my damage taken numbers at the end of the match, I typically see 2-3 times as much power damage taken as condi damage taken.

Am I missing something here?
You have to get struck in order to have condis on you in the first place.

Pyromagnium.4751:

lloydst.6985:

So their system needs to tailor to your needs and use your location to determine whether you can still participate in leagues instead of them rolling out a patch once for all time zone’s they would have to release it for every time zone meaning it would be more of a strain on the server and have to determine whether players have or havnt updated yet plz get half a brain

You’re right let me go get a comp sci degree and learn about the client server model so I can better understand next time. It’s not “tailoring” the text read “The season ends on the 25th” and the 25th is not over yet. Simple. Also, I doubt what you say and what the developer’s reality of the situation are the same. Their servers may not have a problem with it I do not think you have the expertise to comment on the matter.

You miss the point.
The point is that it’s impractical to have the season end time go by timezone.

Ignoring the technical hurdles of having the queue checking timezones, it’s just bad implementation.

Think of it this way if you’re on the last timezone to shut down, are you really going to get any matches in that last hour? No you’re not because with all the other timezones shutdown the queue population is going to be too low.

Then you also need to consider the PR ramifications of trying to placate all the people in the early shutdown timezones that are kittened that they can’t do ranked while others can. Just imagine the backlash from that.

aktharr.2389:

OH MY GOSH GUYS YOU ARENT LISTENING. Pay-To-Win was just a title thing i came up with because i thought in some aspect it was.

WHAT I really was trying to say was they need to balance the powers of the expansion players and the powers of regular player by either boosting or nerfing some of the classes

Expansion players are regular players. People without expansion are f2p, and f2p simply don’t have a large representation in sPvP. Moreover most f2p are going to playing at low mmr where the power difference between core and elite is completely hidden by the general lack of skill.

Beast McDragon.1703:

I have always assumed that GW2 is written by people for whom English is a second language. How else can you explain “account bound on acquire” instead of “account bound upon acquisition”?

With that one I imagine it might be due to them wanting to minimize the number of characters on the tooltip, since “…upon acquisition” might require another line.

Also,

Alright then, lets forget sematics and look at it this way.

If you accept HoT as pay2win on the grounds of HoT being purchasable and increasing the power level, then you have to accept that all expansions in all mmorpg titles are therefore pay2win.
Which of course begs the question of “if you hate pay2win why are you playing mmorpgs?” since by the definition of pay2win defined in this thread all mmorpgs are pay2win.

Seriously, people are going to have to accept the fact that expansions in mmorpgs will typically cost money and will typically increase the power level.

MAN.9046:

By buying the elite specs of HoT you have a significant advantage over core class users, which you obtain by paying $50. If paying money to have an advantage over someone who didn’t(whether it’s an f2p nub or a 3 year sceptical veteran) is not pay2win then what is it?

By the literal definition of pay2win HoT is pay2win.
By the spirit of the term pay2win HoT is not pay2win.

Honestly if you go by the literal definition of pay2win every expansion released by every mmorpg to date (or at least that I know of) is pay2win. However that’s not the spirit of the term pay2win, since expansions/sequels are expected to have new stuff that is pretty much always going to be stronger than the old stuff. (power creep haunts all perpetual games)

I want a 1-stat amulet, specifically a 3k power amulet.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

boons will be countered hard by boon corrupt in the next patch.

As someone who is actively experimenting with a curses/spite super boon corrupt build I can tell you that even with the patch changes there is no where near enough corrupts available to shut down boons. Boons are simply way to easy to apply for many classes.

vana.5467:

I end up feeling pretty silly when all my posts contain the terms “power creep” and “less skill-based combat”, but this really is the biggest thing pushing me away from the game at the moment.

If you’re complaining about this game not being skill based and having too much power creep, you’re going to be in a world of pain if you ever go to other mmos. I’ve played a number of mmos and gw2 has the most complex and skill based combat system I have ever seen in a mmo.

And yes, HOT introduced some level of power creep, but lets be realistic the amount of power creep introduced by HOT is so marginal compared to other mmo’s expansions, like seriously in SW:TOR’s recent KoTFE expac high-end critical hits went from 10-15k to 20-30k and every single melee class gained a leap or a shadowstep and every ranged class got a additional disengage or teleport.

I really think too many people on this forum have been playing this game soo long that they have forgotten what the rest of the market is like.

Chaith.8256:

My opinion is that the classes should primarily be balanced around being used optimally, in conditions where there’s little or no L2P factor, so apples can be compared to apples.

Balancing things like MinionMancer, Turret Engineer, Dragonhunter, 100Blades Warrior for entry level skilled players should be a consideration too, but as a second priority, and it can’t impact the class potential, after all, it’s admittedly a L2P problem.

No. Classes should be balanced so that their skill to effectiveness ratio is the same across the board.

Yes new players need to L2P, but if all your new players ragequit from frustration before they’ve played long enough to L2P then your game is going to end up a ghost town.

Dragonhunter is a good example of this. A experienced player may watch a player get blown up by DH and say “well they didn’t dodge the trueshot, and they just wandered onto the traps” But that’s not what the new player saw, what the new player saw was that they where walking along and the ground exploded and they insta-died. Which to the new player makes the game feel arbitrary.

Classes need to be designed so that they are balanced uniformly across all levels of skill. Games can’t afford ticking off dedicated players, but they also can’t afford ticking off new players.

Necro’s don’t hold up to focus fire anywhere near well enough to function as a bunker.

I’m not seeing how necro is supposed to meta in a burst meta, necro doesn’t have much burst and it has terrible defense against burst

Can we at least wait until the patch actually drops before claiming a class as dead.

Archon.6480:

Crinn.7864:

Archon.6480:

I would be content, if they added this one. It is relatively weak to conditions (with no vitality) and doesn’t benefit much from critical hits. This would work well on Druid/Ranger.

Vitality has nothing to do with the effectiveness of conditions, at least no more or less than it does with the effectiveness of power.

A large vitality pool means you can live longer, loaded with more conditions, which gives you more time to cleanse or ignore and swallow them. This is obvious, no? Everything with low vitality pool has a weakness to conditions.

Vitality means you live longer vs everything, that doesn’t make it a counter. I’ll requote myself from another thread since I ain’t typing this again.

ragnarokda.1805:

NeXeD.3042:

Toughness is a semi counter to power, vitality is a semi counter to condi.

Toughness is partial mitigation. Vit is just a raw TTK increase.

Neither are counters. Countering implies negation of a mechanic. Cleansing is a counter to condi. Blocks are a counter to power.

The value of toughness is that it’s constant partial mitigation. Against a single power attack the value of toughness is marginal. Over the course of the fight however toughness adds up to a lot of mitigated damage. Toughness works great against sustained pressure as it decreases the amount of healing required to keep up with the pressure.
This is why cleric support guards are so vulnerable to power spikes despite having some of the highest toughness in game, yet at the same time are nearly impossible to kill by attrition. (which is a counter example to the “toughness counters power” claim because spikes are nearly always done with power attacks, yet the high-toughness support guard is extremely vulnerable to spikes.)

Vitality is another story. Vit merely gives a increase in health pool. This is great against burst (from anything) but is terrible as a sustain because it doesn’t actually mitigate any damage, and a large health pool also means you need way more healing to replenish.
This is why Carrion necros (high vit, low tough)almost never manage to completely top off their health pool in combat, but almost never get spiked to death. (which is counter example to the “toughness counters power” claim, since most spikes are done with power yet the low toughness Carrion Necro can’t realistically be spiked.)

The only way you could argue that Toughness is a counter to power is if you believe that high toughness prevents death by power. This is also a fallacy, as toughness only really decreases the effectiveness of attrition by power attacks, and even then only if you have the heal capabilities to back it up.

ragnarokda.1805:

That’s the point he’s trying to make with “vitality counters condi” is that no matter how much health you have, condi deals the same.

So if you have 12k health, 1k/s condi will kill you in 12 seconds. But if you have 20k health, it’ll take that SAME condi 20s instead of 12s to kill you.

However, with power damage, vitality is a much smaller cushion if you don’t have toughness coupled with it because even though you have more health, you’re going to be getting hit HARDER without toughness or something like protection.

Vitality is a equal cushion.
A power attack dealing 1k damage with a 1sec cast would take 12 seconds to kill a 12k HP target and 20 seconds to kill a 20k HP target. Exactly the same TTK as condi.

Saying “well toughness decreases power damage, and thus increases TTK against power without a vitality increase” doesn’t all of a sudden make vitality a counter to condi, and it sure as hell doesn’t make vitality less effective against power.

In fact toughness just augments the effectiveness of vitality against power.

Placentlad.9742:

Crinn.7864:

Placentlad.9742:

Alin.2468:

The game already has 2v2, 3v3, arenas. Just create a custom arena Courtyard, and set it for 2v2, 3v3, or whatever you desire. Simple.

Ur missing the key point of this which is alot of PvPer’s wants COMPETITIVE 2v2,3v3 or 5v5 modes, without been restricted to capture the points maps and stronghold (which is rly jus PVE).

Competative 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, whatever is pure cancer. 4v4 destroyed ranked in sw:tor in 1 year flat.

Hell one of the Blizzard devs straight up said at one point that introducing arenas was a mistake.

2v2’ing for fun is fine, trying to make it competitive is asinine.

U obviously dont realise a BIG part of WOW’s success is its PVP which has many different modes such as 2v2,3v3, 5v5 Arenas, CTP maps, 10v10.

Do you know wat happens wen u add variety? MOre ppl will PVP

I just cant understand how some players here are against ppl gettin to choice wat competitive PVP they want to play and INSIST on having conquest mode ONLY.

Oh please, nearly all of WoW’s success was that blizzard managed to corner the themepark mmorpg market before anyone else managed to get in and compete with it.

WoW is not a shining example of a good game, it’s a shining example of how effective skinner box and carrot-stick tactics are.

Placentlad.9742:

Alin.2468:

The game already has 2v2, 3v3, arenas. Just create a custom arena Courtyard, and set it for 2v2, 3v3, or whatever you desire. Simple.

Ur missing the key point of this which is alot of PvPer’s wants COMPETITIVE 2v2,3v3 or 5v5 modes, without been restricted to capture the points maps and stronghold (which is rly jus PVE).

Competative 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, whatever is pure cancer. 4v4 destroyed ranked in sw:tor in 1 year flat.

Hell one of the Blizzard devs straight up said at one point that introducing arenas was a mistake.

2v2’ing for fun is fine, trying to make it competitive is asinine.

This isn’t power creep. this is elite specs getting rebalanced. You could argue elite specs are too strong but that’s again not power creep.

Power creep would be like if they pulled a WoW and increased gear, level and base stats whenever they release a update.

Please no, I already had my last game’s pvp ruined by the addition of tdm arenas. They are cancer, they lead to stagnated metas and stratagies, and they suppress build diversity.

No.

Laraley.7695:

As I said, DS is what really keeps ele being able to handle the condition pressure and without it, it’s very difficult since the condition generation is still higher.

Of course condition generation is higher than condition cleanses. If eles (or anyone else) where able to cleanse conditions as fast as conditions where applied then they would be effectively invulnerable to all condition classes.

Archon.6480:

I would be content, if they added this one. It is relatively weak to conditions (with no vitality) and doesn’t benefit much from critical hits. This would work well on Druid/Ranger.

Vitality has nothing to do with the effectiveness of conditions, at least no more or less than it does with the effectiveness of power.

Floplag.4032:

Necro will be a hard counter to a Rev in many cases, but every class should have one… right now, you dont.

Necros have counters though, you just don’t see them since their counters are not in the current meta. Warriors and daredevil, with scrapper to a lesser extent. DH also does well against necros although I wouldn’t call DH a counter.

The meta is changing, which is a good thing, the problem with the bunker meta was that it was stagnant and ceased evolving after chronobunker settled in.