While I don’t think energy costs from weapons should be removed, I do think the energy costs of many things needs to be looked at since they’ve been doing almost nothing but making things more costly while adding a good number of unreasonable cooldown times.
Honestly I really love it even if I dont play warrior in WvW. The only issue is that
its particle effect gets culled. That skill single handedly brings tactic into zerg fights.
No longer can you just mindlessly spam stability and rush into the enemy zerg.
You have to think about what the enemy does, bait winds of disenchantment etc…
It also removes the savety net from midline necro artillery and ele aura heal bots.This ultimate will change large WvW more than almost anything they added in the last years.
Or it could just cause another pirate ship meta where people do nothing but try to fire away at each other because if they clash, they will be stripped of every boon they had by a large number of Spellbreakers.
This isn’t going to bring in tactics or make you think about what your enemy is doing; it’s going to turn into a kiting fest of long range AoE blasting and angry glaring.
From the stress test:
- SB is pointless unless you absolutely cannot fight in melee.
- F2-F4 skills are unusable due to energy cost and cuz they do not do much to begin with.
- Utilities may have some niche uses, but cost too much energy to be used consistently.
- Heroic is where all energy should be dumped. It offers the highest damage and sustainability for its cost in PvE.Renegade surly buffs condi damage in PvE, but it is just due to Kalla’s Fervor and heroic spam. It also simplify condi rev game play. Mallyx heroikittenil you run out of energy, then Kalla do the same. Kinda like how things are now.
Agreed. Kalla’s Fervor is basically the only good thing about this spec, for both condi and power builds.
The rest is almost completely trash.This basically means that on the 22nd we’ll see that Kalla’s Fervor has been nerfed.
I lol’d, because this feels more true than it should be.
I feel like all the Renegade hate. The look flipping epic. AND I feel people who say it is unfinished just went into a map and pressed 1. I feel it is one of the most finished of the classes.
Found the revenant player.
The overwhelming majority of rev players I spoke to called it trash as well. If you think Renegade is ‘one of the most finished’ then have to call BS.
Calling it now. New specs don’t really have access to stability and ventari rev will be fullcapping points even if 5 enemies are around (in a 5v5), yet again a bunker build’s going to destroy the expansion launch season and suck the fun out of playing the game. No build should be able to spam AoE knockbacks every 3-5 seconds that happen to heal for ~20k and cleanse conditions.
Anet seems to have learned nothing from season 1 or the era of decap engis.
If only a healthy state of combat was something they even remotely cared about..
Okay, yes the build is cheesy and annoying, and I agree it needs to be changed a bit, but how about toning down on the nonsense.
The main issue here is the knockback, not the healing, which doesn’t do 20k or anything near it every 3-5 sec, and by spamming the tablet shatter, the condi cleanse you get is even less than if you banked energy or just used the other cleanse. PvP is going to be a broken mess with all the new elites running around anyway, so stop acting like this cheesy one trick build is going to break the game when there are going to be much bigger priorities soon.
Changing legend has nothing to do with weapon swap. Revenant is not elementalist and switching to Jalis doesn’t make you magically ranged. Being able to go from melee to ranged and vice versa is needed for any class including Revenant, so give it an extra skill to conjure a weapon or keep weapon swap.
After 2 years please stop being kitten about it.
Adding weapon swap was a tack on fix done in an attempt to remedy some of the classes core issues without actually addressing them. Now, 2 years later, we still have those issues like before, only now our weapon sets have been butchered along with them. It’s not about just being able to go from ranged to melee by swapping weapons, that’s not the point, especially when rev’s had only one ranged weapon for those two years. It’s that it was a lazy fix that seemed to help in the short term, but in the end lead to numerous OTHER issues that could have been avoided while never solving anything.
Taking away weapon swap won’t solve everything, but it’s a -start-. Or we can keep heading in the direction we’re going in and keep spinning our wheels while whining about problems a lot of people asked for that they shouldn’t have been given.
Let go of the past. Weapon swap is here to stay.
And the problems brought with it are here to stay as well. It needs to go.
It was terrible.
Razerclaw gave decent bleed damage with a group that stayed in a backline and wasn’t on the front, one of the only redeeming things about Kalla.
Icerazer suffers from the same issues as mainhand sword does in that he can’t make up his mind who he wants to attack when there’s more than one enemy, alongside the fact that cripple is useless in PvE.
The heal is atrocious. Low numbers while being locked into a small AoE against bosses with AoE is a good way to die, and with the numbers so low and slow to heal, it won’t save you in a pinch at all. At least Shiro’s heal can be used with s3 to nearly guarantee you’ll get some charges out of it, and you don’t have to camp a single spot.
Elite was decent, but the massive energy costs of it, along with all the others, meant it was either this skill, or another before I swapped.
One of my biggest issues with it all is that they all became USELESS when any cc was around. Watching the Champion Man-Eater fling all my summons in the air, and thus making them absolutely worthless, was infuriating. Seeing the Legendary Choya roll all over my summons until they either died or ran out of time made me want to drop the legend then and there. Those 12k bleeds are nice for the few middling moments they’re there when it functions right, but unless nothing was nearby the summons, they all became worthless and a waste of energy.
also a small fix to ventari like the druid have each fragment cleanse 1 condition
Problem with this is that it will just encourage more tablet shatter spam.
I think it’s fundamental to understand that the core issue here isn’t the Resistance Boon in Mallyx or the fact that said boon will have more counters in POF.
The most important thing we need understood is our cleanse/healing option of Ventari is so unwieldy in so many scenarios we don’t even see it as a viable option that we have come to rely on Mallyx/Resistance as our only viable option to manage conditions
What we should be pushing for is to make the Ventari legend actually usable. We need a way, be it by trait or base line build, for us as players to be counted as the tablet. Ventari already has a wide number of condition cleansing, healing and defensive capabilities that we simply can’t take advantage of because of having to micro manage the tablet in scenarios where micro management is punished and/or not rewarded. This effectively takes one of our most needed core sets (condi cleanse/management) and makes it useless in the areas where we need it the most (PvP and WvW).
The most sensible solution to this, to me, is to simply make it so you carry it on your back and if you want you can use the heal key to move the Tablet to somewhere else like you can currently, and pressing the heal button again will bring it back to you like a boomerang. I don’t care how this is accomplished, be it by a GM trait in the Salvation line or otherwise.
However, simply put, we have the solution to conditions and cleansing built into our character we just need it in a state that’s functionally usable for the game modes we need it in.
A lot of people suggested some time back that they would like to have the tablet tethered to you as the caster as well. Personally, I would rather have a different set of skills available when the tablet isn’t summoned.
If we were given 4 new skills while the tablet is gone, then it would not only solve the issue if being helpless without the tablet, although we would still be out of energy, but it could open up the possibility of having a stun break on the legend, among other things.
I suggested a while back to have a potential damage increase skill for your group while the tablet is gone, but someone mentioned it goes against ventari’s them as a pacifist. Fair enough, but I see no reason not to have a stun break, an upkeep group pulsing condi cleanse, a cripple or immobilizing skill etc, you get the idea.
While the tablet is stowed, the skills are centered around the revenant, and at the tablet while out. None of this would require being hampered by micromanaging or such strict placement, and hopefully it could be versatile enough to find a place in builds where you need cleanse and other support without being such a pain to use.
With all the boon strip/corruption coming, I’m becoming more and more convinced that Rev’s self resistance needs to become a unique effect rather than a boon. It would be much easier if we were given reliable cleansing, but Anet refuses to do this.
If Embrace the Darkness made you invulnerable to conditions, then I’d live without the condition copy, even though I think it needs to come back as well, rather than be used as a trait that can be suicide to try to make use of.
Funny thing is that most revenants don’t want Renegade, from what I’ve seen at least.
Take it.
The amount of damage the elite on Kalla potentially adds is literally insane. It will be 100% fine in pve raids.
Nah, they’ll invite Firebrand or Holosmith, since they just have way more condi dps and far more support and survivability. Or Elementalist, that’s still probably the best class if they nerf Holosmith as they should.
That’s a player exclusivity issue. Anything 30k or higher is totally viable in pve raids. If people don’t realize that they’re kittenes. I’ve been playing power rev/condi rev in raids for the past year (i.e. after it fell out of meta). If some people don’t want you, kitten em, make your own groups or find people who do. That’s what I did. That’s what friends of mine who played Condi Thief before it became amazing did. Rev might not be used for most speedclears, but whatever, it’s totally capable at pulling good damage and can effectively clear the content. Renegade is a total upgrade for condi rev. Period.
Saying it won’t be “good for pve” is just pure ignorance or based on your own subjective opinion on what “good” is.
For a total upgrade to condi revenant, you make use of less than half your traits in PvE: the first tier of traits are completely worthless if you don’t use a SB and we have no means of applying bleed from traits, the second tier is just as worthless if you don’t use SB or Kalla, and she only becomes usable for protection, which Glint can do better. The last tier is likely going to be Lasting Legacy to boost Kalla’s Fervor stacks.
You shouldn’t need the F2; Kalla’s Fervor is dumb easy to stack since in full Viper’s gear we’ll be overstacked on precision with Invocation and the might you give is less than Herald could have done much easier. F3 is the main energy dump so less time making use of your normal rotations. F4 is not worth trying to keep up with since it’s once again an energy dump and for only 4 seconds. No point in this when chrono exists, not even when traited, which also takes your Fervor stacks down.
What do you get from all this and what do you lose? (This is without Kalla and SB, because you say Renegade is a straight upgrade, not the weapon or the legend.)
We get Kalla’s Fervor, which is a good buff to both ferocity and condi damage, and some precision buffs from the trait line that cap us over 100% crit with Invocation.
We lose Assassin’s Presence, which is less ferocity than traited Kalla’s Fervor, but it’s a group buff. We lose Ferocious Strikes, which puts our ferocity over what Kalla’s Fervor would give when using the previously mentioned trait. We lose all of the Devastation minors, which all aid in damage, the first to a lesser extent when Vulnerability is capped, and we lose Swift Termination.
Or if we drop Invocation, we lose our stun break on legend swap, the 7% buff to both condi and power damage, might from fury gain, a condi cleanse or single attack buff, and Rolling Mists, which put me at about 65% crit chance.
If this is an upgrade, it’s a rather poor one for what we lose and won’t change how we play at all, just a few numbers that really aren’t that great. Your position is just as subjective, so stop calling the rest of the pots black.
(edited by CutesySylveon.8290)
Instead, they suffer from ground targeting issues. And mesmers don’t give up an arm to summon thier stuff.
As fun as it sounds i still basically play rev “without” wep swap where i have hammer but basically never use it on duels and yet i kitten using s/s only which proves that wep swap wasnt needed at all.
You can make the skill from weapons stronger in a “no swap” environment and still I think that won’t provide as much tools as having a second one. For sure, using s/x + staff I find myself rotating between them a lot.
Thats not the point. Rev is poorly designed, there is a reason why engi and ele work just fine without weapon swap and rev doesnt. Its issue at the core desing, wep swap was nothing but bandaid fix and in the end it doesnt solve any issues – quite the opposite actually.
I have to agree here. The addition of weapon swapping threw everything out if whack with revenant by not only making some skills massively Op when they could be combined with others, but deterring from the idea of having the second set of utilities to complement the weapons and fill the roles needed. This lead to the devs not fixed the issues with the core mechanic of the class; a band-aid fix is a good way to describe it. The problem is still there and it’s not getting better.
Skip forward to the changing of Mallyx, the absolute butchering of Shiro, and the many flawed designs they started with that weren’t fixed, and changes that never helped, and here we are today.
I think Renegade is better than many players are giving it credit for, even if it’s buggy right now. It’s not perfect, it’s energy hungry, but still; it’s easy to test out some combos in the Mists. And sure, these are under perfect conditions against easy AI, but it shows you can in rapid succession perform more or less by the book what I wrote out, without it being just a “theorycrafters dream”. Look at the ticks, look at the cluster of conditions that would need to be cleansed and consider how easy they are to re-apply (you could obviously Legend swap and weapon swap to re-apply conditions with Mallyx), and look at the speed of which they are applied. Can they be avoided, obviously, otherwise it’d be completely broken. But can you condi-burst someone with Renegade? Likely. The more of your allies are nearby the stronger you are. Renegade is in my eyes obviously meant to be a spec that thrives with team mates. It’s not a duelist. Let your team mates knock someone down and then seal their fate with a burst of conditions.
Here’s an example; https://youtu.be/8847KBvhwrA
To repeat myself yet again, I was mainly talking about the specialization in regards to PvE (and yet again; skills can be balanced differently in PvP and PvE — as in, the Bleeds may last twice as long in PvE for all we know), though it can function for PvP too (WvW perhaps more so than Structured). Oh, and if you want, you can set your targeting to Instant and re-position the sweet spot for Seven Shot to actually hit targets up close (with the bonus being that some arrows tends to double dip the target).
PS: I realize I should perhaps have used a different AI than the Ranger in the example, but you can go do the same exact combo yourself on any of the AI in the Mists, the results won’t be vastly different. The repeated Cripple makes it somewhat easy to keep your personal distance and for Icerazor to finish attacking. When enemies close on you, swap to the melee weapon set. In PvE, the Cripple is not of importance, it’s the amount of Bleeds Icerazor can apply being as he is an extension of us, the player. I can also understand why they went with Cripple over Chill, as to not need to mess with Abyssal Chill, giving it an ICD that would make it harder to burst out Torment with other skills on other weapon sets and a certain legend.
None of the condi burst capabilites you describe with Renegade are any different than what you can do with Mallyx when traited properly. One use of Unyielding Anguish can get you almost 20 stacks of torment, more if you use sigils and runes. While applying chill, which is much more valuable then cripple and vuln, even when all three of these conditions are short, chill is objectively better to have. On top of this, the torment from that single skill lasts over twice as long, sometimes three times as long, as the bleeds you get from Renegade. If they gave Abyssal Chill a CD, then it would be for the purpose of forcing us to use the new legend by nerfing the rest. If it becomes an issue of them both doing chill and being the same skill effectively, then why did they mirror it with cripple and vuln on Kalla as opposed to torment and chill with Mallyx? It’s lazy, that’s why.
You can apply all these condi’s with Mallyx and reapply them no differently with either legend respectively, which begs the question of why you would take both when one does the job better and it more reliably with less risk of you being caught with your pants down because Kalla has no means if mitigating conditions on you or healing reliably.
If Sevenshot was changed to function the way it does with the targeting bug it has now, then it would be much better, but I personally don’t like the instant casting of my AoE’s in case my mouse isn’t where it needs to be.
All of the summon situations assume that they aren’t being simply moved out of, CC’d, or flat out die from cleave, which is going to be a major issue in a real teamfight where you say Kalla should thrive.
While I haven’t tested this myself, if Renegade is more useful on a power build, when it was specifically built to be a condi/support spec, then that just proves that the spec is an absolute failure from the devs intended. I can see the reason for trying to pull some light from all the doom and gloom Renegade was, but this isn’t helping. If anything it’s making it worse.
What.. in the world.. are.. you.. even.. on about? Just because it’s got a good duality with being functional in both a Power and Condition build, it doesn’t mean it’s necessarily more useful in one over the other. That means it’s well designed. Condition Renegade is quite strong from a PvE perspective, and not absolutely terrible for PvP either. The combination of dropping Razorclaw at your feet while tossing Icerazor (who will pummel the enemy 20x with Vulnerability and Cripple and gain the effect of adding Bleeds due to him being an extension of the Renegade) over by your target followed by a quick Seven Shot (every arrow that connects adds a stack of Bleeds, for up to 7 stacks together with 7 stacks of Torment) followed by Bloodbane Path/Scorchrazor to a Spiritcrush or switching to Mallyx and Mace/Axe is quite devastating. It’s not a weak Elite Specialization for Conditions. Toss in Orders from Above to restore your cooldowns a bit faster for additional skill usage. Obviously, against a player, you may want to connect Scorchrazor before you do Seven Shot, etc.; there’s a good chunk of alternative ways you can throw these things out. Razorclaw at your (and/or your team members) feet is going to be huge though. Also, for PvE purposes, do not forget the skill split between PvP and PvE. There will likely be more damage in PvE.
What Renegade needs is huge bug fixes though. The “No valid path to target.” is inexcusable and completely broken when it means you can’t use your Utility skills whatsoever on top of WvW walls and bridges, on top of certain terrain and so on forth. It’s horrible, and I can’t even fathom how they have let that one slide. Seven Shot needs serious fixing too. Several of the arrows never basically spawn, because it for some reason on perfectly flat terrain still seems to think it’s blocked. It’s also extremely cumbersome to use in narrow areas, so that skill as-is can use some dev work to make it functional in more scenarios than just big open areas. I also find that I never ever have energy enough for Citadel Bombardment, which on top of that isn’t surefire to connect, it’s RNG, so that could use some energy cost reduction or at least become more reliable in its damage. It’s currently not feeling worth it to use it, as it costs way too much for little payoff when you can use way more skills and pump out way more damage in a shorter time than the skill takes to play out its animation.
Oh, and the heal is of course junk. Most of us seem to agree on that. Maybe it scales well with Healing Power, but that feels like a weird design choice if so. It’s fairly terrible with Condi/Power builds. Not a fan of the Stun break being on it either. Not entirely sure where else they could move it though; Darkrazor?
If you really think this spec is well designed, then I have to ask what you’re on, because I want some of it. Every situation you described was a theorycrafters dream that will absolutely never come to pass in any real scenario, not only because no one is dumb enough to stand in these AoE’s and take all the stuff you described, but also because you can’t start the fight with 65 energy to drop two utilities then use 3 of your energy costing weapon skills without someone knocking you silly or interrupting it at any point, and this was all before you claim to swap legends. Then tossing in some F abilities and I’m wondering where in the world are you getting your energy management ideas from because you flat out can’t do all of that. The only good skill for PvP in the Kalla legend is the daze because it’s cheap CC.
In PvE it’s not much better since you should never be using the Sb because the bleed is worthlessly short and clunky, Sevenshot fails half the time as we’ve already mentioned, and Spiritcrusher can’t even fire behind you and is crutched with a much longer effective time with the arrow falling animation, making it take much longer than the 3/4 sec the tooltip says, and for what? A few one second burns? Razorclaw should be good for PvE, no issues there, but Icerazor doing cripple and vuln is worthless in PvE since both are laughably short and cripple has no purpose in PvE. Why is this not chill so it has synergy with Corruption? The elite can be a decent damage and sustain buff, but now we run into our energy cost problems again if we want to use the other utilities or F skills. Assuming we’ll be running Mallyx with Renegade and Kalla, we won’t have the energy to make use of anything in Mallyx if we use him get the energy for our F2-4.
Energy costs and duration numbers can be tweaked, but if Kalla ends up being a better Power spec for rev than condi, then it’s NOT because it was just designed that well, it’s another Reaper scenario where they started with an idea and worked towards it and failed, and instead of fixing the issues, they just let it ride until the next expac when they try again.
I have to disagree on so many levels that the heal is anything but in top 3 for the worst heals in the game. Poor initial healing and requiring you to hold in a small point to get the rest of it is a horrible idea when Rev already has too many heals that have special requirements to do any good, like Glint and taking damage and Shiro in doing damage without missing. I don’t understand why they refuse to let Rev have normal heals that can simply be used reliably. Add in that if it’s interrupted, Kalla’s heal flat out fails and goes on full cd while being the only stun break of the legend and it’s got my vote for worst heal in the game.
While I haven’t tested this myself, if Renegade is more useful on a power build, when it was specifically built to be a condi/support spec, then that just proves that the spec is an absolute failure from the devs intended. I can see the reason for trying to pull some light from all the doom and gloom Renegade was, but this isn’t helping. If anything it’s making it worse.
Decide what do you want: Support or Condi Damage. You can’t have both
Guards have both…
Eles have both…
Revs have both…Seriously what game have you ben playing this past years ????
the thing is Necro got left out of the Power creep a long time now.. its about time we slowly catch up… especialy seeing that the devs dont have plans to tone down the power creep….
I stopped taking this seriously the moment Rev was mentioned. I certainly hope you aren’t talking about Renegade, because it’s absolute trash compared to Scourge.
On top of all that if I wanted to play a ranger I would have made a ranger my main character. The mounts were not thought out for Herald either. When you dismount your are not even ready to fight because all your buff are off.
Facet of Nature stays up when mounted for some reason while the others don’t.
The protection the trait provided was more than the description when I tested it, but I think we need to worry about all the absolutely underwhelming aspects of Renegade before we worry about a trait that will just be slapped with an internal cd.
It is absolutely terrible in pvp. Not only are the summons clunky and costly, but easy to focus and if cc’d they stop their effects if they channel them to you. Your heal can be outright denied to you if it’s cc’d and will go on full cd if interrupted. SB4 can’t be shot behind you and has a horrible cast sequence that makes it take much longer than the cast time to take effect. SB3 will lose shots if literally anything gets in the way of the path to the target. The traits are all bland and uninteresting and the condi durations from Sb feels extremely short even in with viper gear and bleed specific runes. I don’t want to stop doing the auto attack to cast anything but maybe the 2 skill because it feels like all my stacks vanish when I stop.
PvE may be different when we have more control over our stats and such, but it feels VERY underwhelming. I think we’ll end up having the Dragonhunter spec of this expansion: the one the players of the class it was assigned to doesn’t want at all.
The condi damg overall is good and fun to play with real ranged weapon, the life steal kinda OP i think it will get nerf soon.
They better not, because that’s more reliable than the heal. If it’s interrupted, the heal will go on full cd without casting the AoE.
If Charr were only as you say, then they may as well not become Revenants in the first place, lel. It wouldn’t stop any other race with that profession from perceiving Kalla, though.
Which is funny considering Rytlock, a charr, is the first known revenant.
Rytlock is their Mary Sue ala Scarlet anyways. Just like they’re trying really hard to depict Ascalonian rebels as ultrarationalist racists.
They love their tobaco smoking Duke Nukem cat, and seeing as he’s the one original Destiny’s Edge member left as they’ve pretty much discarded the rest with the odd drop ins by Caithe and even rarer Logan appearances, the alternatives for a revenant were few considering Braham became a dragonhunter and Rox is….well.
Funny, since I love my revenant, but absolutely despise Rytlock as a character. Granted I dismiss most of the story anyway, Rytlock gets a special place for my scorn since I can’t get into the lore much if I wanted to because he’d show up.
Rev’s are notoriously weak to conditions. When they made the class, they decided this should be it’s weakness. They just made it too glaring.
So they build a game almost entirely around condition damage.
Then they create a class that’s weak to what they built the game around?
We’re in a condi heavy meta right now. The game wasn’t built around it specifically, but they are forcing the meta towards it very heavily.
Yes, I have thought about it, but thats sacrificing both too much survivability and damage at the same time, by either giving up on shiro or glint.
Also using a legend just because of it’s condi cleanse capabilities won’t make the whole situation any better.
In addition you will miss out on a lot of mobility using the centaur stance.
(Managing the tablet is going to render you quite immobile on the open field, when playing alone)This is kinda how Rev is built though. The legends heavily define the roles you choose to take. If you want more condition cleanse on any class, you’ll need to make some trade-offs. Ventari and Mallyx are what give Revenants condition defense, just like Mesmer getting theirs from Mantras and Inspiration, or Engineers with Elixirs and Alchemy. It all depends on how much you’re willing to invest to get the results you want.
One of the issues with this is that you can’t just take the specific things you want as a rev; you have to take the entire bundle of other things that you may have no use for if you want something specific.
An engi can take the elixir that wipes all condi into boons and still run a perfectly fine build with other skills that don’t cripple half its effectiveness. However, if you needed the best access to condi cleanse rev has, then you have to take the rest of the baggage that comes with Ventari when it may be completely useless to you. The amount of investment you have to do with a rev is a bit too much for what can often be simple things, like reliable cleansing. It doesn’t help that in most of these situations the strict role system they had in mind for rev with legends often do not mix well with each other; there is little synergy between lines and legends, which is one big reason Glint is so easy to build around because she can work with pretty much anything.
This is so ridiculous that it made my day on its own. Ventari magi not only has no damage, but most of the healing is outgoing, rather than to the rev. So if you’re having trouble killing one 1v1, then the issue is with you.
Seriously, I have a fully ascended set of magi armor I use in PvE and WvW and I can heal someone for 14k with monk runes, food, and sigils. I get about 5.4k of that to myself. I get a little over 1/3 of the healing I output. Apply this to PvP where the numbers are about half this, and you have a nice fat l2p issue.
I’m disappointed we didn’t get any energy regen in the traits. The renegade abilities have insane energy costs. >_<
Then it would be better to reduce energy costs on abilities, instead of introducing a trait that would very likely end up becoming “mandatory,” which cripples build diversity.
The issue of mandatory for builds would be compounded by this energy trait being in Renegade, an elite spec. How they would balance that in the future would be a nightmare.
Well, staff is garbage anyways and needs buffs and significant energy reductions.
Staff is a must in PvP and roaming, no matter if you use a power or condition build. Even more, taking in consideration that aparently the shortbow has NO DEFENSIVE SKILLS I highly doubt about the Renegade being able to bring to the table a viable PvP/roaming build. And even if you’re talking about PvE, staff is the best defiant bar breaker tool in the game.
You don’t need staff in pve when all it takes is a druid quick draw lunar impact and wyrm F2 alongside the passive degen of other classes.
Costs far less DPS.
Or you can have one rev do one skill and get the effect of all those classes combined. A single staff 5 on a boss like in the Nightmare fractal can make up for three classes not offering any cc at all. Staff also has our best cleanse and a good block. It’s not a dps weapon, so if that’s all you look at it for, then yes, it will be bad in your eyes.
Or you can have the druid do it since the druid is not a revenant stuck on staff for 10 seconds doing absolutely garbage DPS just because he wanted to break a CC bar other groups can break through natural rotations instead of subpar weapons.
Assuming there is a druid in the party, and if other groups could break cc bars so easily, then I expect to never see any group wipe due to lack off cc…oh wait, that still happens because most natural DPS rotations don’t blow thier cc skills until they need to for that very reason.
Stop calling staff subpar because it doesn’t have the best DPS a rev can output. It’s not even like staff’s DPS is all that terrible. It’s a great weapon.
Well, staff is garbage anyways and needs buffs and significant energy reductions.
Staff is a must in PvP and roaming, no matter if you use a power or condition build. Even more, taking in consideration that aparently the shortbow has NO DEFENSIVE SKILLS I highly doubt about the Renegade being able to bring to the table a viable PvP/roaming build. And even if you’re talking about PvE, staff is the best defiant bar breaker tool in the game.
You don’t need staff in pve when all it takes is a druid quick draw lunar impact and wyrm F2 alongside the passive degen of other classes.
Costs far less DPS.
Or you can have one rev do one skill and get the effect of all those classes combined. A single staff 5 on a boss like in the Nightmare fractal can make up for three classes not offering any cc at all. Staff also has our best cleanse and a good block. It’s not a dps weapon, so if that’s all you look at it for, then yes, it will be bad in your eyes.
I’ve heard rumors of a Power/Condi/Ferocity set that could work since we don’t need the precision of Vipers… But, after the food nerf I think Viper’s will still be king for the expertise.
Well, getting the torment from the crit sigil, plus the buff you get from Renegade when you crit would make you want Precision, no?
I’m thinking that we’ll likely be specing Corruption, Invocation, and Renegade when the elite comes out, and with Rolling Mists from Invocation, precision will likely not be an issue, so I don’t see a reason to lose the expertise from Viper’s.
We won’t have easy access to fury after we lose Glint, so I personally wouldn’t drop precision as a stat completely. I’ll be running Viper’s.
(edited by CutesySylveon.8290)
If you take Abyssal Chill, then you can get some good torment off of sword 2, especially if you run sigils that chill on hit/critical, or weapon swap. It’s not a complete fit, but we can output enough chill from mainhand sword to at make it work if you don’t want to use mace. This is assuming you’re running something hybrid related and can make use of power damage for sword autoattacks as well, which Viper’s does fine, in my experience.
I love the fact that if i wanted to use staff/hammer and Devistation the first tier traits are complete and utterly USELESSS – gg anet.
As much as I don’t want them to buff Vicious Lacerations, they could give it a flat power boost for taking the trait so it isn’t completely locked in the use of sword. But I agree, there is no use of the first tier of Devastation for staff/hammer.
As of now, I don’t know of any new condi stat types for rev that will outshine Vipers’, but I could be wrong. Until then, I will be using Viper’s stats for Renegade when it comes out since the Griever’s stat doesn’t give condi duration.
Weapons skills:
1. Drop the Hammer. It’s ridiculously slow and near useless against anything moving or with two brain cells.
2. Punishing Sweep. While the extension is a good skill, the fact that you have to use this slow thing to get to it, usually causing you to eat what you were hoping to interrupt, makes it frustrating to use at best.
3. Phase Smash. I actually like this skill, but it breaks the game. At the very end of the skill as you attack, you’re character is considered partially physical. This makes it so that you can use some instant cast skills, like Gaze of Darkness for a 1200 range reveal, but it also loads you up with condi if it’s from an AoE if that’s where you landed. And on bosses like Anomaly, if the floor pane you jump to vanishes, you will fall.
Traits:
1. Replenishing Despair. Not only are the other two options much better, the healing is just too low to be of any use. Perhaps if it applied for every stack of conditions you get placed on you, but it’s only for unique conditions. So if you got 1k healing from it, you’d die from being condi bombed long before it made any difference.
2. Momentary Pacification. The ICD is just too long for this to be of much use. Combine that with how telegraphed it is in PvP and that it can be evaded, and it’s just not really worth it. I personally preferred the old version that dazed enemies.
3. Charged Mists. I don’t really find this trait to be bad per say, but it’s just completely outshined by the other two in the tier, imo. Rolling Mists is pretty much mandatory for a damage build, and I’ve found Shrouding Mists useful in healing builds on bosses
Legends: (Going to go with individual skills rather than the entire legend.)
1. Purifying Essence. Personally, this skill is just too costly and can be completely overshadowed by the elite skill, or have a much easier access to with staff, if a bit weaker. I like it, but I never use it.
2. Embrace the Darkness. This one hurts. I love this skill, but unless I’m running Diabolic Inferno, I have little reason to use it. Yes, it gives a 10% buff to stats, but I can make use of the energy elsewhere and only really get the full effect of the skill if I camp it.
3. Forced Aggression. This is clearly a PvP skill, but even then I don’t like it. I’d rather use that energy on VH, IR, or the elite than try to taunt one person, at least those skills won’t be flat out wasted if someone has stab, it misses for some reason, or gets blocked. There’s no use for it in PvE, not even for breakbars as we have staff 5 and other much more effective skills for that.
Much wall of text.
As people have stated, you have to play actively with power rev, utilizing the many evades and blocks at your disposal to avoid damage: UA, Glint’s heal, staff 3 and 5.
Devastation, Invocation and Herald are your best spec lines for dps. I personally like offhand sword more than axe or shield, but you can take any of them and be fine depending on what you need, be it the healing from shield, the cc and port from axe, or the block and cc from offhand sword.
Mind your energy and watch what your fighting does. Use s3 defensively when something nasty is coming to avoid the damage, as well as glint’s heal in a bind; it’s a get out of jail card.
Staff offers the best breakbar skill rev has with staff 5, a block and one of our best cleanses, but if you’re running hammer, then use the third skill much as you would on sword to avoid damage. Hammer 4 combined with Impossible Odds while autoattacking with hammer can get you some decent healing as well to top off.
As far as staying in legends, you don’t camp them much as a power rev. You should be constantly swapping between shiro/glint, assuming you’re running them, and utilizing Equilibrium as much as possible. This doesn’t mean you should swap as soon as it comes off cd if you feel you need to be in a certain legend for a bit longer, like if you’re waiting for a strong attack to use Glint’s heal on.
Glint should be core.
Not sure if Glint herself should be core, but rev does need another core legend, both to help it without being glued to an elite spec at all times, and because it’s missing the equivalent number of skills a new legend would have.
Necro has minions, corruptions, spectral, Wells, and signet’s. Totalling 5 core categories for skills. All other classes follow this same pattern, but rev only has 4 core categories, legends. Why this is, I don’t know, but it simply needs to change; there’s no reason rev should be short an entire category of skills.
So far, the only examples I can see are on humans. This looks to be a human only change so far unless you’re on a sylvari or norn.
Thirty minutes of running around on my asura and I haven’t heard a peep from them.
My main rev is an asura. They speak for them, female asura at least.
Unsurprising, but I can live with something like this being late, unlike how late some of the many bug fixes were.
No, they talk now. Interesting little addition.
The issue is skill 5. Seriously long cast time with an animation that a blind man can see it coming. If it is changed to be a mobility skill that will make hammer much more viable outside WvW.
Skill 5 is
stronggood, just got to use it intelligently.In PvE or WvW, maybe? In sPvP, no body cares you managed to hit a dummy. The skill does not work at all.
In what manner doesn’t it work? It does exactly as advertised. Maybe it is the users who don’t work at learning how to use it that’s the issue.
Yes, it does as advertised, the problem is that it is horribly inefficient at doing that effectively.
It’s a 2 sec (iirc, using my phone) knockdown with a 1.75 sec cast time that’s advertised by one of the most telegraphed animations there is. If I’m not mistaken, Drop the Hammer has the single longest cast time of any weapon skill, at the very least among non-channeling skills.
This is objectively pitiful. No amount of single instances of someone playing thier keyboard with thier feet will change that.
You can like the skill, no problem with that, and if you find some uses for it then great, but seriously compare this skill to something like ranger LB 4. It’s near instant cast, very fast projectile, and does what it’s supposed to do, which is getting what’s in your face out of your face. Can you really say the same about Hammer 5?
The issue is skill 5. Seriously long cast time with an animation that a blind man can see it coming. If it is changed to be a mobility skill that will make hammer much more viable outside WvW.
Skill 5 is
stronggood, just got to use it intelligently.
Drop the Hammer is near useless for anything PvP related aside from the fact that it doesn’t have a red ring under it and in the heat of a zerg fight you can’t tell who’s doing it. Anyone else that gets hit with it is either braindead or put themselves in such a horrible position with skill cooldowns and endurance that they’d be hit with anything.
In PvE, the only use it has is that it can be placed in very weird angles and hit enemies where the other skills can’t.
Add in that it goes on full CD if you cancel it for any reason and you have a horrible skill.
This would do nothing but massively cripple an already terrible weapon. The damage of hammer is the main thing that gives the weapon any sort of purpose in the moments it has, while not addressing one of its biggest problems: it has no way of stopping someone from charging at you aside from praying they’re dumb enough to eat all of its slow attacks.
Damage numbers, cooldowns, and energy costs can all be redone later, but if hammer is to be changed then the skills themselves need to be reworked.
Hammer 1: Fine as is, damage can be modified.
Hammer 2: A short ranged cone attack, about 300, that causes cripple.
Hammer 3: Rework so that the leap location is where you end up at, and the blast finisher and chill happen where you leap from, making this a good kiting skill and give people a reason to question rushing hammer.
Hammer 4: Fine as is.
Hammer 5: Drop the Hammer is gone because it’s useless, and now this becomes Coalescence of Ruin but changed. Now, each of the three ranged points apply a different CC: 1200-900 being a short stun, 900-450 being a knockdown, and anything closer being a knockback.
Duration of CC and conditions can vary, but hammer needs a way to keep people away from you, which it can’t do as it is. I’m also thinking in the idea of not having weapon swapping because Anet NEEDS to remove it from the class to balance it properly.
I don’t think either of you play hammer.
+1 for best retort.
Yes, I’ve played hammer since the beta when it could hit 15 targets with CoR on a 2 sec CD running berserker stats and insta downing thieves and eles’s. (Can still do that last thing.)
Hammer is held together by damage and utilities like Impossible Odds and Riposting Shadows, not by the functions of the weapon itself.
This sounds insanely fun but also ridiculously overpowered. I do like the idea of double strike on Impossible Odds, though. Shiro needs some means of increasing its damage without becoming useless with a mesmer around.
This would do nothing but massively cripple an already terrible weapon. The damage of hammer is the main thing that gives the weapon any sort of purpose in the moments it has, while not addressing one of its biggest problems: it has no way of stopping someone from charging at you aside from praying they’re dumb enough to eat all of its slow attacks.
Damage numbers, cooldowns, and energy costs can all be redone later, but if hammer is to be changed then the skills themselves need to be reworked.
Hammer 1: Fine as is, damage can be modified.
Hammer 2: A short ranged cone attack, about 300, that causes cripple.
Hammer 3: Rework so that the leap location is where you end up at, and the blast finisher and chill happen where you leap from, making this a good kiting skill and give people a reason to question rushing hammer.
Hammer 4: Fine as is.
Hammer 5: Drop the Hammer is gone because it’s useless, and now this becomes Coalescence of Ruin but changed. Now, each of the three ranged points apply a different CC: 1200-900 being a short stun, 900-450 being a knockdown, and anything closer being a knockback.
Duration of CC and conditions can vary, but hammer needs a way to keep people away from you, which it can’t do as it is. I’m also thinking in the idea of not having weapon swapping because Anet NEEDS to remove it from the class to balance it properly.
I’ve had a lot of fun with condi rev, but I have always preferred the playstyle of power with this class. I have no issues with a condition ranged weapon, and am quite curious as to how the new elite spec will be.
That being said, I agree that shiro was nerfed far too much and has been left aside while most other legends have been buffed. I also do not like how forcefully Anet is shoving us into conditions, pushing away the potential for an even playing field for both power and condi rev to be viable.
Condi rev is the way to go for DPS, ventari’s latest buffs have made it a very reliable healer, but shiro and power revenant have been nerfed into oblivion. I can’t help but wonder if Anet is happy with the state of thier only expansion class.
A necro can have unblockables in shroud if he casts the shout that makes all attacks unblockable before he enters it. There is no way of getting around the ridiculous amount of unblockable attacks in the game at the moment, and shield 5 is a good way of advertising that you’re a great target for them.
Then the necro is running a subpar build(unless gvg, where sword/shield is not even played). I play rev daily and I have problems with unblockables one out of ten times I block. Just use it to block an attack that is not unblockable, no big magic here
You’re missing the point, which is that shield 5 is a rather subpar skill for the amount of resources it demands, time before it is usable again, and the risk involved with it to utilize its full effect.
Offhand sword offers a block with, in my opinion, much better utility than shield, in that it is mobile, costs far less energy, has roughly half the cooldown rate, offers an immobilizing chain, and a bit of damage on said extension while sacrificing the healing of shield 5 that I personally don’t find worth it.
Ignoring outside influences, like unblockables, I think offhand sword has the better block than shield in its current state, and I don’t think a change to shield 4 will change this.
A necro can have unblockables in shroud if he casts the shout that makes all attacks unblockable before he enters it. There is no way of getting around the ridiculous amount of unblockable attacks in the game at the moment, and shield 5 is a good way of advertising that you’re a great target for them.