Guild Wars 2

Lalangamena.3694:

there is a very easy way to “workaround” conditions issue in the margins of the current limitations (25 stacks…), and its:

lower the amount of stackable conditions each attack applies (bleeds and confusion) to minimum (1) and increase their relative damage to match burn.

this way the individual player will not lose its DPS and a group of 5 people will be able to benefit from 3-4 condition classes.

Problem: Most bleed and torment applications do so one stack at a time. This suggestion would make them hugely overbearing.

I agree with your “fun” idea. Making the 6 rune bonus convert all conditions on the wearer to boons is far more fair than “cleanse all conditions, gain all boons.”

The runes would still be just as effective against conditions, but they wouldn’t give you the “I rock completely” effect unless you were really loaded with conditions.

I’d like to just see the ICD’s removed and let it get balanced from there. It might turn out to be very good without the ICD’s.

kyubi.3620:

Well attrition Minion master heals quite a lot per second so id not place them as a very poor healing class yet.

Not really. The health/second from Vampiric Master is only about 150. The Blood Fiend alone heals for twice this much with no traits.

That said, up to 450 health/second does provide some decent sustain. It’s still weaker than what other classes will usually have applying all the time (Warrior, Ranger, and with only a little work, Guardians) in their attrition builds, plus those other classes have numerous blocks, invulnerabilities, or evades to compliment them. Plus, blinds on the minions, blocks, evades, and even simple kiting drastically reduces the necro’s sustain as it relies on the minions hitting.

Allowing siphoning through death shroud would make a bunker MM necro much harder to kill, but that’s kind of the point: the necro is supposed to be the master of attrition. They can almost keep up to other bunker builds as-is, but unlike the others, their sustain already has direct counterplay and can be negated entirely by smart players.

Oh, I never claimed that the nerf wouldn’t be largely inconsequential. 10% off of a tiny amount (at least,when compared to a necro’s health pool) is barely noticeable at all.

Even so, when ANet touts us as the “attrition class”, then nerfs our most viable “attrition” in most cases, we kind of have to wonder what they actually want.

That said, I still don’t see why they don’t bring our other siphons scaling up. Make all the siphon traits the 3% scaling and then it might actually be viable.

Bhawb.7408:

Vampiric Mastery is taking a very small nerf (10%) and at the same time getting healing scaling, which it doesn’t have atm. This means a total nerf of 2 HP/s and 2 damage/s (per minion) if you aren’t using a single shred of healing power past the 200 that you get, and will actually buff it if you have anymore.

Bhawb, I respect you, but please don’t act like you know what the scaling will be. Most likely, it will be the same terrible “scaling” as the rest of the siphon traits. Unless you have hard numbers from the Devs, I’m going to have a hard time believing what you’re saying here.

Considering that Evade frames do the exact same thing as Invulnerability frames, I don’t see why you suggest that Blurred Frenzy isn’t an invulnerability. No new conditions can be applied during either one and existing effects persist through their duration anyway.

Now, honestly speaking, I don’t mind Blurred Frenzy as-is. The Mesmer can’t move to follow you during it, nor can he move to avoid AoE’s you place to effect him when it ends.

Ele wall lasts for 3 seconds, Guardian lasts for 5. Spectral Attunement Spectral Wall lasts 7.5, as well as being a nice combo field.

Not so great on the warden fights, but you have plenty of time to swap it out anyway before going in.

If this change for Dhuumfire goes through (and history says it will, regardless of how much it’s stated to be a bad idea,) then the trait should be moved down to Master tier. Remove Spiteful Marks (widely regarded to be a useless trait, due to the very low direct damage of any Mark skill) entirely to make room, move Dhuumfire to Master, then create something suitable for the Grandmaster slot. Ideally, the new Grandmaster trait should have some benefit to condition builds (both damage and control).

jihm.2315:

imagine fighting minion necro with no vigor

I play a necro primarily. Every time I fight a minion master, it’s without Vigor.

Funnily enough, I rarely lose those fights. Though I admit, I can’t comment as much on other professions.

Have to bow out on any invitations myself unless the schedule changes. I work when they’re streaming.

The Marionette is challenging content to be sure, but it is, at least, doable without ungodly amounts of coordination.

Andele.1306:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

There are two times when Fear will actually Interrupt: When a casting enemy runs into a Spectral Wall, or when they run into a placed (but not triggered) Reaper’s mark.

That is forced self movement, funny enough traps cound application as the person that triggers them (as in its the idiots fault that they didnt dodge), while using stats of their owners, same with pets, their damage counts as their own but some aspects of the skills do get influenced by the person that summons the pet, thus its not as much fear interrupting but fear proccing the owner to interrupt (same way you get interruptor for causing a enemy to stun themselves with their own skills like some of watchworks while in stunned phase getting hit by their own skills if you pull em count for daily interrupter too).

Actually, those two situations I described do result in legit Interrupts 100% of the time. It doesn’t work if you drop the Reaper’s Mark or Spectral Wall on top of them, they have to move into it themselves.

Incredibly stupid, yes, but it does actually count for Daily Interrupter.

There are two times when Fear will actually Interrupt: When a casting enemy runs into a Spectral Wall, or when they run into a placed (but not triggered) Reaper’s mark.

Rym.1469:

Spectral Walk and Armor LF gain on-hit doesn’t stack

It does, actually. That was introduced with Spectral Walk’s reduction from 3% to 2% when hit.

Pottross.4726:

While I totally like the idea per se, I’d like to point out that we already have access to spectral skills granting LF on activation (more if traited) and SA/SW granting passive LF on being hit. Having both SA+SW will grant 10% LF on activation plus a passive regen of 10% per hit on a 1sec internal cooldown.
Adding another 10% on top of that without internal cooldown whenever hit by some hard cc will grant like 20-25% LF on being hit by a single cc.
Given the fact that damage is already cut in half if we sit in DS would mean to regenerate roughly 3-4k LF, that translates to 6-8k hp, assuming only 15k DS pool. That’d be essentially a free healing skill every second and half a heal in between each proc per cc. Pretty decent I’d say

Hey look, Attrition ability! More accurately, this would be effective focus mitigation (though not negation).

The % life force gained is up for analysis on what would actually be balanced, but this sounds like a fantastic trait idea. Doesn’t negate the susceptibility of necros to CC, but it does let us deal with it without needing to use the escapes we don’t have. I added the idea to the Compilation of Death Magic Minors thread.

Pretty sure it doesn’t remove from other minions. I don’t know about other summoned allies.

To a mod: Please move this thread to the Necro forum where it actually belongs, as it is not discussing the balance of the trait.

EDIT: Thanks mod!

Bhawb.7408:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

post that podcast on Youtube so I can listen to it.

All podcasts are posted on youtube, as well as the main website ; youtube being audio + background image, and the website also has audio only.

I know they’re posted there, that’s how I’ve been listening and know you mentioned that thread.

Try checking the Wiki as well: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fetid_Consumption

And the answer is group support. Necros do just fine with conditions on ourselves, but we are sorely lacking in group utility. Minion Masters are strongest with one opponent, and those are usually duel situations, so the Necro himself is getting the full cleansing effect anyway.

My view on the active for Signet of Spite is that those champs are almost instantly stacked with all the conditions it applies anyway. Save the skill slot and cast time and just pop Epidemic. Spectral Wall doesn’t help against them, but its purpose is to keep the smaller mobs in the AoE-spam so they don’t sneak through as everyone focuses the champs.

Perhaps an overview of this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Compilation-New-Death-Magic-Minor-Ideas/first ? A couple weeks ago, you did mention it in the podcast and suggested that it could be a future topic. I’d like to hear your thoughts on which are more likely to actually happen.

If you actually did do it, then post that podcast on Youtube so I can listen to it.

Life Corruption added. Shadow Skin is nearly identical to a trait idea already presented.

Also added Reaper’s Tenacity, even though it was in a different thread.

Each minion has a unique timer on it. However, what the trait doesn’t tell you is that the necro himself is not the only one they pull conditions from. They’ll also pull conditions from your allies, which will use their 1/10seconds pull.

Why was this posted in the Balance Forum instead of the Necro forum if you weren’t sure how it actually worked?

Yeah, but fully traited Spectral Wall gives 7.5 seconds of mob lockdown every 32 seconds during the lane phases, ensuring those blasted Menders don’t streak past the AoE fest at the start of each lane. Even without traits, I find that skill extremely useful. Signet of Spite…really doesn’t do much in Marionette events. The passive isn’t that great there due to downscaling, and the active is meaningless.

Removing Vigor wholesale would at least make the necromancer better in comparison, mainly because that’s the one class that wouldn’t notice any change at all (only vigor comes from a situational use of a50 second cooldown skill).

But no. The solution to the Zerker meta is redesign of PvE encounters. That is the only solution that will work.

Phi Is Sly.1857:

-2. OR, remove the players armor rating from death shroud.

This would result in any hit whatsoever being a 1-shot. Terrible idea.

You do realize that any damage taken (other than life siphon and conditions) is divided by your armor? Base armor for a light armor profession in Exotics is ~2000. A hit that would deal a mere 150 damage with that (so this is a VERY weak hit) hits for 300,000 against an armor rating of zero. This “balance change” would result in Death Shroud going from a defense to a death sentence.

What I learned? Traited Spectral Wall is OP as hell for stopping groups at chokepoints.

Then again, that’s kinda what it’s supposed to do…

Life Blast is not a channel.

Life Leech, Life Siphon, Ghastly Claws, Life Transfer, Frozen Abyss, and Wicked Spiral are the only necro skills that are channels.

Bhawb.7408:

Its better than some healing skills.

Signet of Vampirism doesn’t count, Bhawb.

Well of Blood is 11 ticks (1 immediate, then 1/second for 10 seconds) for a total of 4.4 allied scaling and 5.4 self.

Also, Life Siphon (Dagger #2) scales all right with healing power (45% total). Nothing fantastic, no, but it’s at least notable.

Kiriakulos.1690:

If control conditions were somehow separated from pure damage conditions and both had different cleanses and only a few cleanses ( mostly full cleanses) which overlapped removal effects, SoS would become a lot less scary. The whole Condis are too powerful argument would probably also fall on it’s face.

I agree. More condition cleanses need to be like the ones thieves have: namely Hide in Shadows, Withdraw, and Roll For Initiative (which also removes Fear). Thieves do have the luxury of being able to remove specific conditions that are troublesome, despite having no full clears.

I believe that this is the way the “increased condition defense” should go instead of “more cleanses/bigger cleanses/immunities”. The number of cleanses in the game might need to increase a bit more, but the new ones, and some existing ones, should be made more specific as to what they remove.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

It’s like adding ball and chain to your character and only 1 strip and 1 cc is needed to make these skills useless.

I dunno, Plague is pretty tough to make useless, since it keeps pulsing through stuns and the like.

Honestly, unless they drastically increase the scaling on or siphoning traits, Knights will do you way more good. Same crit chance, but much more survivable.

Bombsaway.7198:

Skill is manageable and avoidable.
However, it is relatively more powerful than other elite abilities or certainly very top tier.
Mortar on the other hand. . . . (you may have to go look it up as infrequently as you will see it).

Wait, Engineers have elites other than Supply Drop? I could have sworn they only had the one.

It’s always the closest bone minion that detonates first. It’s very predictable.

Now, exact position of said finisher, on the other hand…

Uses “Animate Thread”

This discussion is pretty important to the class. We can’t let it be forgotten until the traits change.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Compilation-New-Death-Magic-Minor-Ideas/first

See OP.

We do need more access, I am in full agreement with Bhawb on this one. Our current durations are pretty good, but we don’t have enough sources.

Since we have to face-tank everything, the least we could get is less incentive to be focused.

Roe.3679:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

You sure about that?
So it will only proc ONCE per a time you are in DeathShroud? If so, that is insanely stupid.

It only can proc once every ten seconds. if you stay in Death Shroud for 10 seconds after firing Dhuumfire, you can shoot another Dhuumfire Life blast.

And to be super, crazy, redundantly clear: they said that it would still have the ICD in the Ready Up?

Yup, they stated it would still have a 10 second cooldown.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

You sure about that?
So it will only proc ONCE per a time you are in DeathShroud? If so, that is insanely stupid.

It only can proc once every ten seconds. if you stay in Death Shroud for 10 seconds after firing Dhuumfire, you can shoot another Dhuumfire Life blast.

Mystogan.4157:

It says it activates on crits.. is there a % chance that it will hit? cause wen i crit it doesnt not always apply.

It also has a 20 second cooldown. Automatic application on crit, though.

Don’t bother with it. You have better options.

Seetoo.9316:

The best defense is to not take the hit (be it dodge, block, invul, or simply being out of range). The worst defense is taking the hit (armor, toughness, healing, prot).

You can’t stat for the best defense, so stating for defense means choosing the weaker kind of defense.

Pretty much. Since the best defense requires no gear choices at all, the only thing to do is go full DPS.

The only way the Glass Cannon issue will be solved is with enemy/encounter revamps. Keep in mind, though, that this issue ONLY exists in PvE anyway.

runeblade.7514:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Well, it’s 40+, not 30, but…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbvjWD0W4SU

Hi.

The footage isn’t what I am looking for. I am looking for minion vs minion war. Not a “LOOK HOW MANY MINIONZ THERE ARE” video. I didn’t think my title is that ambiguous.

Sorry to disappoint you and your efforts.

Hey, you asked for 30 MM’s in WvW. That’s all I was supplying.

Next time, say a 30 vs. 30

To anyone confused, the OP deleted his post, but that didn’t delete the thread. If a mod could delete this, that would actually be nice.

Tim.6450:

Dalanor.5387:

I just cant think of anything why they (Anet) tought ICD is a good idea, to prevent some OP stuff with this kill. Only mesmer clones cause some problem, they just generate more hp with each attack to the necro (actually every attack that has really low damage), but this makes some counterplay against a mesmer and necro.
The ICD on the active with long cast time is just another “what the hell?” idea. The stack on the the enemy already makes a cap why another? Oh and the 5 second window while the mark is active …

I think the ICD is to make sure that you don’t take all 25 stacks for yourself.

Best the necro can do is 23 stacks claimed, unless they get Quickness from somewhere. That said, getting that value requires blowing at least three 30 second+ cooldowns, flashing Death Shroud (so no defense for the next 6-10 seconds) and at least 10 in Curses, plus managing to keep them in two wells for that whole period. Any blinds, blocks, evades, interrupts, or invulnerabilities from the opponent drastically limits this as well.

You do realize that the skill currently gives 3% life force per condition on the target? I hope you know that.

For the typical Scepter/Dagger condition set, that’s the only life force generation that is typically used.

Now, I do think that it needs some guaranteed life force if it hits, even if the target has no conditions. Just a small amount, though, like 2-5%.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Keep in mind that even in pvp all it does is block one attack, if properly timed. It’s not going to stop a burst of multiple attacks.

And it will only block the direct damage at that. CC and conditions get applied as normal.

Well, it’s 40+, not 30, but…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbvjWD0W4SU

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Please do not mix the capabilities of offhands like that when making a comparison. Of course it sounds much better when you are comparing the effects of 4 skills to 2.

seeing as i run BOTH Focus and Warhorn, but okay.

I would take Daze, Cripple, Life Force Regen, Swiftness over Blind, 3 conditions transferred as well as a poor Bleed and a weakness that can be easily removed.

I would take Vul, Regen, LF Regen, Chill and Boon removal over Blind, 3 conditions transferred as well as a poor Bleed and a weakness that can be easily removed.

Better?

Much better. Now you are comparing swapping either offhand out instead of both.

Carry on with the argument ^.^

Nova Stiker.8396:

Every Necromancer and Engineer knows, likes and hates these traits. These traits are responsible not only for the rise of the condi meta but it greatly limits builds do to their power.

What ArenaNet fails to realize why these traits are so powerful is the only met condition is a critical hit. Even low critical chances of 20% is still viable because of the recharge.
It doesn’t matter what weapon or utility you use, even if your dodge lands a critical hit, it still triggers. Making running conditions to easy.

My propose ‘nerf’ to both these skills.

Move to minor Grandmaster Trait, replacing Siphoned Power. Cooldown removed.
Dhuumfire -Whenever you apply Fear, apply 2 seconds of burning as well.

The only issue with this is it counter-acts Terror, which Fear does more damage when the target DOESN’T have a condition. Which is very stupid drawback to begin with people take JUST for extra damage with Fear regardless if the target already has 7 different conditions.

You must not play a necro. Terror does 50% more damage if the target HAS another condition, not if they don’t have another. Having Fear apply burning is a very bad idea if you are trying to reduce condiburst.