Guild Wars 2

I’d like this too.

GOSU.9574:

Ever heard anyone in PvE say : “What we could really use now is an Engineer?”

Until that happens, Mesmer will be the more desired class, if only these two are being compared across multiple game formats.

Engineer and Ranger are in the same boat when it comes to desirability.

Haven’t gotten that one, but I have gotten, “Is there an Ele in the party?” when I was running my P/P HGH build in a dungeon run. I wasn’t even focusing on support.
(Honestly that’s an unfair way to compare the two classes, Mesmer’s wouldn’t be nearly that popular if they didn’t have Portal, Timewarp and Veil)

silentnight warrior.2714:

silvermember.8941:

Cynz.9437:

from all threads all i saw so far is this:
. thieves shouldn’t have stealth
- thieves shouldn’t do dmg from stealth
- thieves should be squishy
- thieves shouldn’t have moblity
- thieves shouldn’t have traits that help their survivability

honestly, do you guys even read what you write?

Thieves shouldn’t have perma stealth.
Thieves shouldn’t do a lot of damage from stealth.
Thieves should be more durable.
thieve should not have cheap teleports.
Thieves should have to make a choice between mobility and stealth.

or stealth should have some type of counterplay and giving rangers a stupid skill on a long CD is not one of them.

This ^^

So thieves should play like Warriors taking everything front, or give up all thier effectiveness and avoid as much damage as possible, takes as much effort to kill as a Bunker, yet still be unable to hold points. That what you’re going for?

It was nerfed because Eles were using it as a disengage. (Keep in mind at this time Eles were running builds with 3 stunbreaks, along with good defense and amazing healing)

One idea could be, give it back the 20 seconds and make it homing, however to counteract the disengage, make it only activatible when the ele has a target. Sadly, this would destroy the skill’s role as a travel skill.

Proven.2854:

Dual.8953:

hooma.9642:

Excalibur.9748:

BlackBeard.2873:

Teutos.8620:

BlackBeard.2873:

I can’t say all of the changes, but I really think Mesmers are going to be REALLY strong. Their biggest weakness was S/D, which is being fixed, and their cleansing options have been buffed pretty heavily recently. On top of that, they were never weak, just countered by the stuff that was strong. The last time a class got buffed to remove its weaknesses, we got the current warrior.

Uhm no. What are they fixing on S/D? Nothing, they already did last patch. Have you felt any change? Mesmer is ok, and will be ok, there is nothing coming that will change anything here.
Oh no! I forget about the buffs in the inspiration line and the trait switch in illusions… not. Every change listed will have absolutely no effect on the only viable 20/20/0/0/30 shatter mesmer.

I should have been clearer, S/D THIEVES are being fixed b/c they no longer have free-stunbreaks on infiltrator’s return (the #2 skill), which allowed them to so totally and completely crap all over mesmers when combined with the sword evade-spam. Mesmers now have the tools to survive/take down these theives, and never lost some heavy burst.

I also have been playing around, and interrupt mesmers have some REALLY strong skills/traits, esp: mantra of distraction (2-3x instant daze whenever), chaotic interruption (root for 2+s on daze, so a stunbreaker+condi clear needed to escape burst), bountiful interruption (5x might + other boon on interrupt), 8x vuln on interrupting a foe with daze (5pt and 15 pt in domination), as well kitten dmg vs. foes not using a skill. Combine that with some of the other powerful tools and there is a build in there somewhere that locks you down and bursts you annoyingly hard (probably S/P with GS).

Shatter will still be plenty good as well, and a good number of builds will really benefit from clearing 2x condi every heal for only adept-level trait.

is mesmer complaining about S/D’s “free” stunbreak on sword when they have the same thing on their staff, called phase retreat?

i dont play mesmer but as far as i know phase retreat has something called recharge!

10 sec base recharge, and it sets a clone, and doesn’t need to be preset so it’s very much a semi-spamable oh kitten button.
Shadow Return on the other hand needs to be preset, and has a limited usable time, so it’s useless if the enemy gets the drop on thr thief.

So, one is used offensively and the other is used defensively. Which class was used more in the current meta again?

Both are used defensively, only Phase Retreat can be used all the time, and Shadow Return can only be used if the thief initiated the attack. In fact, the clone gives PR more offensive value.
Thieves don’t have the luxery of being able to kite everything to death, and Shadow Return is one of the things that kept them “usable”. With the lose of close combat survivability due to vigor nerfs and Infiltrator’s Return, and the general ineffectiveness of kiting, and the ineffectiveness of BS burst, how exactly will Thieves be off any use to their teams after Dec 10th?

hooma.9642:

Excalibur.9748:

BlackBeard.2873:

Teutos.8620:

BlackBeard.2873:

I can’t say all of the changes, but I really think Mesmers are going to be REALLY strong. Their biggest weakness was S/D, which is being fixed, and their cleansing options have been buffed pretty heavily recently. On top of that, they were never weak, just countered by the stuff that was strong. The last time a class got buffed to remove its weaknesses, we got the current warrior.

Uhm no. What are they fixing on S/D? Nothing, they already did last patch. Have you felt any change? Mesmer is ok, and will be ok, there is nothing coming that will change anything here.
Oh no! I forget about the buffs in the inspiration line and the trait switch in illusions… not. Every change listed will have absolutely no effect on the only viable 20/20/0/0/30 shatter mesmer.

I should have been clearer, S/D THIEVES are being fixed b/c they no longer have free-stunbreaks on infiltrator’s return (the #2 skill), which allowed them to so totally and completely crap all over mesmers when combined with the sword evade-spam. Mesmers now have the tools to survive/take down these theives, and never lost some heavy burst.

I also have been playing around, and interrupt mesmers have some REALLY strong skills/traits, esp: mantra of distraction (2-3x instant daze whenever), chaotic interruption (root for 2+s on daze, so a stunbreaker+condi clear needed to escape burst), bountiful interruption (5x might + other boon on interrupt), 8x vuln on interrupting a foe with daze (5pt and 15 pt in domination), as well kitten dmg vs. foes not using a skill. Combine that with some of the other powerful tools and there is a build in there somewhere that locks you down and bursts you annoyingly hard (probably S/P with GS).

Shatter will still be plenty good as well, and a good number of builds will really benefit from clearing 2x condi every heal for only adept-level trait.

is mesmer complaining about S/D’s “free” stunbreak on sword when they have the same thing on their staff, called phase retreat?

i dont play mesmer but as far as i know phase retreat has something called recharge!

10 sec base recharge, and it sets a clone, and doesn’t need to be preset so it’s very much a semi-spamable oh kitten button.
Shadow Return on the other hand needs to be preset, and has a limited usable time, so it’s useless if the enemy gets the drop on thr thief.

Teutos.8620:

I’m expecting to see more off-guards EU. They are already pretty strong, and I think with the recent fury change people are going to figure out some working off-guard-builds as well. Problem is, when you currently see a off-guard, they are mostly awfully traited or are picking f.e. a staff.

BlackBeard.2873:

I can’t say all of the changes, but I really think Mesmers are going to be REALLY strong. Their biggest weakness was S/D, which is being fixed, and their cleansing options have been buffed pretty heavily recently. On top of that, they were never weak, just countered by the stuff that was strong. The last time a class got buffed to remove its weaknesses, we got the current warrior.

Uhm no. What are they fixing on S/D? Nothing, they already did last patch. Have you felt any change? Mesmer is ok, and will be ok, there is nothing coming that will change anything here.
Oh no! I forget about the buffs in the inspiration line and the trait switch in illusions… not. Every change listed will have absolutely no effect on the only viable 20/20/0/0/30 shatter mesmer.

How they’re “fixing” S/D is snapping the only leg it had to stand on, which was Shadow Return. The only thing that kept them from being obliterated by CC.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Sorry for double post: I wouldn’t kick a player if he’s only in Rares. But if he’s nearly doing no damage, I would give him some tips to improve his playstyle.

Problem is you’re an example of an ideal outcome. First rule of practical design is assume the worst. And practical examples of these features have shown less then favourable results.

I have a couple questions about Infiltrator’s Return that I haven’t seen asked and may make or break the skill. (By that I mean, not completely obliterate S/x)

1) At what point of the cast will Infiltrator’s Return’s teleport occur? At the beginning or the end?

2) Will the user be able to walk during the cast or is it like D/P 3 used to be?

Zach.3264:

Dual.8953:

Zach.3264:

Sinister.5792:

Thief is already underpowered and we’ll still get nerfed.

I’m sorry, but this did make me laugh a little. You’re far from underpowered.
I’m sick of people complaining about balance when it’s their class that gets “nerfed”.
Complain when you get “nerfs” but when you get buffed beyond what is required you don’t say anything then.

Justmy2c

Then why do people cringe when they hear a Thief was in a dungeon party and why are thieves considered rally fodder in zergs?

In anycase, did anyone ask if the teleport would be at the beginning or the end of the channel for Infiltrator’s Return?

Warriors are good for AoE, Thieves are not.

In a 1v1 with Warrior and Thief, if the Thief chose not to spam Stealth/Blind then the Warrior would obviously win. Stealth/Blinds hold close to no value in Dungeons in terms of winning a fight.

To put it better;
Warriors have better DPS.
Thieves are good for their ability to negate damage, which isn’t needed in dungeons. Which is why Warriors are better choice in dungeons.

Warriors > Thieves in dungeons goes without saying. Warriors were the apex class in dungeons long before they got their rise in all other modes. I want to know why thieves are considered a burden in dungeons, why they’re generally considered just a step above Rangers in pve and non-roaming wvw, yet not underpowered.

Zach.3264:

Sinister.5792:

Thief is already underpowered and we’ll still get nerfed.

I’m sorry, but this did make me laugh a little. You’re far from underpowered.
I’m sick of people complaining about balance when it’s their class that gets “nerfed”.
Complain when you get “nerfs” but when you get buffed beyond what is required you don’t say anything then.

Justmy2c

Then why do people cringe when they hear a Thief was in a dungeon party and why are thieves considered rally fodder in zergs?

In anycase, did anyone ask if the teleport would be at the beginning or the end of the channel for Infiltrator’s Return?

jportell.2197:

Relentliss.2170:

Dardamaniac.1295:

Guardians may not be OP now but they defently have potential to become the OPiest class ever…
Back in beta they were..
Guardians have many blocks,inv,etc etc..
Anet said they wanted to buff the dmg of Guardians…Judging from their “balancing skills” i bet 10 dollars that they would be really OP after dec patch…

Let’s get some perspective. In Beta they had higher health AND blocked 20% of attacks. Both have been nerfed into the ground.

Guardiam has long been one of the most balanced classes in the game and while other classes have gotten nice buffs, Guardian has experienced nerf after nerf to key class abilities. TBH other classes even bunker better in many situations. Unlike other classes it only has one real build for tpvp and some minor variations of it.

Like any class there are some thief builds that guardian just tears apart and others they struggle with.

^This right here. People need to read it and comprehend it.

Guardians may notice these nerfs, but to players of other classes, Guardians are that class that’s never had a problem getting a party, and has been a top tier pick for parties accross all modes. In PvP, any team worth its salt has at least one Guardian. In WvW they’re the backbone of the zerg, the more Guards you have the better. In PvE, unless you’re doing speed runs, people always cringe at the thought of a party without a Guardian. No other class in the game has enjoyed this kind of viability across all modes since launch, so it’s easy to see why other classes are envious of Guards and get disgusted when Guards say their class has problems.

Zeon.8239:

If you can’t dodge a skill with an extremely obvious animation and a 1.5 second cast time, as well as a very distinguished and audible sound tell, then the problem is not that Elementalists are OP.

This. Not to mention the projectile is also very distinct, the skill has pretty much every warning in the game short of a warning message flashing on your screen,

I really want to see hidable chest armour. It’d look so good for some setups like my Sylvari Warrior.

After reviewing the proposed patch notes for Thief, I felt I’d share my view my views on the some of the changes and propose a few others.

• Hard to Catch – I can see you want to see this trait more used, however in my experience, the reason this trait is generally unpopular is because of its unpredictable nature. Similar story to the problem Engies had with Elixers.
• Larcenous Strike – Could we get back the 2 boon steal on LS at the cost of some of the skill’s damage? S/D already had its auto attack as its primary source of damage, and this nerf to boon stealing has left the skill very ineffective for its utility use. Most of the time the user just can’t get at the boon they’re aiming for. An alternative could be making LS prioritize certain boons. I’d ideally go, Protection, Stability, Might, Regen, Retaliation, Vigor, Swiftness, Fury, Aegis. This alternative would increase S/D users survivability and value to their party without allowing them to steal everything.
  Also, is it possible to add that boon share to LS that was proposed in the past?
• Last Refuge – This trait is generally unfavoured because of it’s unpredictability. Thieves who invest in Shadow Arts take it because they have to but most of the time this trait will proc while they’re attacking which will cause them to immediately waste the stealth it grants and be stuck with 3 seconds of revealed. Could we please change the effect of this skill to something like an AoE blind or a smoke field?
• Pistol Whip – This skill will remain unfavoured until its DPS is greater then S/x’s auto attack.
• Basilisk Venom – Could the cast time on this skill be decreased? It would do wonders for Thieves in boss fight with their parties. As it stands now Basilisk Venom takes too long to cast for it to be used as anything but a random interrupt or an open strike, because it can’t be used in reaction to a boss’ strong attack. If this change was made, I feel a cooldown increase would be a fair trade.
• Venoms – This one’s a bit of a biggy. Could Venoms be mechanically changed so they’d behave similar to Mantras? As it stand, Venoms are unpopular because the user is forced to spend all the venom charges in one go. I they could choose when to spend the charges it’d allow for much more tactical usage. The cooldowns to be delayed till all the charge are used and venoms shared via Venomous Aura could behave as they do now to keep this from being too strong. Decreasing the amount of charges too.
• Condition Removal – Condition removal within stealth is fine, but when a thief tries to go stealth less, they begin to find their options sorely lacking, particularly when dealing with DoTs. Please consider something that can help these players in the future, perhaps a trait in the Acrobatics or Trickery Line which can regulate how many DoTs they can have at one time, or some way to help them cleanse them off.

13, Inf Strike – not moving people to somewhere without line of sight
-Fine, give us a +150 range in exchange
14, Larcenous strike – remove evasion from flanking strike
-Give us back 2 boon strip and we’ll talk. Might even throw in a damage nerf. The recent nerf slashed S/D’s utility and a nerf like this would pretty much destroy the set completely across all modes.
15, feline grace – add 10s icd
-This idea is terrible. It’d destroy all melee builds that aren’t D/x BS across all modes.
16, Shadows refuge – cooldown
-Not sure what end this is to accomplish, keep it in PvP. Some thieves find this an invaluable support tool, and our support options are rather limited as it is.

Lupanic.6502:

I can’t understand that the warrior guys cry about incoming nerfs. I play Engineer and we got 4 nerfs in a row and we still here. I am sure Anet will not nerf them to the ground.

They aren’t used to nerfs I guess. They don’t seem to understand just how good they have it either. Being a solid class pick (debatably the number 1 class pick) across all modes is something most classes can only dream about.

You’re missing that Halloween still has a Finale to get underway.

Mmmm. I don’t think a Necro or a detective knowing things about poisons is that far fetched.

My Sylvari, Vant, would like to aid Nork in his quest. He has such cool gloweffects that he’d like to show off, but alas, he must cover it all in platemail.

UnitedChaos.8364:

This is embarrassing that this isn’t getting much attention. People must like shooting rainbows and unicorns.

Perhaps you should riff on Quip instead. A bow that shoots Unicorns that explode into more Unicorns that also explode. Also Vikings made rainbows BA.
Also to say none of the weapons make reference to lore is a falsehood. The shield is named after the prophecy you fulfill in Prophesies. The torch makes reference to Rodgort, an unknown mage who developed a series of elementalist skills.
I’d like to see more legendaries, especially ones that make references to lore; but I wouldn’t want to see full sets serialized to a specific subject. Their uniqueness to one another is one of the things that sets them apart.

Another melee kit might be fun. Not sure if I want engies sharing kits though. Could cost them being the only class with a cooldownless “weapon swap”

Rather then having HS’s passive granting this immitation of Regen, I propose they make HS proc 20 seconds of Regen every 20 seconds.
Not gonna lie. This it to give HS a distinct weakness to boon removal from a player who’s tired of seeing warriors given key to GW2 while other classes struggle to find slots in parties.

Sorry but this raises some flags with me. How is this not Protection 2.0 with condi support? Also it sounds rather op’d giving guardians the ability to double layer it with protection.

I vote the Sylvari. If you really want to win though, change up the colours. Just because Celestial’s expensive doesn’t automatically make you look cool. Change out the red at least.

I know the idea for alternate skill sets on weapons has been bounced around all over this board, so I’ll simply say I’d like to see alternate skills on weapons and leave it at that, on to my real main point, if they add alternate skills, it’ll add an element of uncertainty and randomness to PvP encounters, you won’t know what your opponent has until they make the first move. To avert this, it would be cool if they added alternate stances for alternate skill sets, this would help preserve the skill of learning all the weapon skills, and add something people could enjoy asthetically.

I personally like the down low stance asthetically. Being down low makes it look like you’re ready to step in close and wreck face. It makes your sword look like it has some weight behind it, a great contrast when you start slinging it like it’s made of cardboard.

mini.6018:

Blimm.5028:

I´m not talking about balancing a single build, but the profession. And I don´t intend to groundnerf all of it but SLIGHTLY reduce the numbers involved.

The adrenalin thing however:
Thief SHOULD loose stealth when he fails his attack.
Mesmer does loose his clones when they fail to hit.
Ranger F1 goes on CD when it fails.
Warriors not loosing that adrenaline doesn´t make sense because dodging warrior F1 is basically useless.

Warrior f1 DOES GO ON FULL COOLDOWN if miss,blind,block.It does not lose his andrenaline only .Does a ranger lose the pet if the f1 misses too ?

No, but he loses full F2 iirc (F1 is the “attack my target” command, not a skill) . Also, when you’re the comparing a class that’s considered top tier in SPvP, WvW and PvE, don’t compare it to a class that considered lowest of the low in WvW and PvE.

I actually don’t have 30 in SA for Shadow Rejuvination. I have it for Shadowed Protector, Shadow Embrace and Cloaked in Shadow. Shadow Rejuv didn’t fit my rotation so the lingering Shadow Protector was much more enticing. (A lot of short stealths vs a long stealth.)

Just pointing out, Rifle already has a skill that does just this. Overcharged Shot.

I was wondering if something like that’d happen. Eh, I’m sure they’ll figure a work around.

KITTENING YES!!!!!

I’ve been waiting for a weapon design contest forkitteningever!

My CS5 is ready and my Intuos 5 is overcharges while unplugged in anticipation!

(Also, the Moot is smexy)

I’m considering finally breaking down and getting a full Zerker set on my S/D thief and I was wondering, if the gear would still give me a decent dps if I went 0/0/30/20/20?

I normally run Knights 0/20/30/20/0. My rune choice is also up in the air if you have any suggestions.

Thanks.

Volrath.1473:

ppl will never be happy, if they had changed it a different way, lowering the dmg, increacing the init cost or both ppl would cry and say “why not make it strip only one boon and leave the dmg and init cost as it was?!”

anyway, i think the change was good. from all available choices i think they did the best one.

as for pistol… i think that the auto-attack should have been the one buffed, not body shot nerfed…

How was this nerf the best option when it leaves Thieves even less effective in PvE and promotes them only using 3 and dodge in Spvp? It feels very much like a step backwards for S/D. I remember a time when S/D users didn’t give a crap about their 3 skill, and made due with all their other skills. It feels like this has been inverted and now instead of using 4 skills, we’re encouraged to only use one or two skills. It also puts a lot of pressure on S/D thieves to focus on inti regen, rather then the relative freedom they had in builds when AA was their main source of damage.
At least, that how it makes me feel as someone who’s mained S/D since the betas.

Holy cow, I see it too XD

If you can manage with Zerker, go zerker. Just as a warning though, I’ve run in a Soldier’s zerg. We ate enemy zergs twice our size.

I’m for the Venoms like Mantras idea myself. It’d preserve the support side of venoms.
At very least I’d like them to shorten Basi’s cast time. If Basi Venom was instant like the others, it’d have awesome tactical value in fights. Currently it’s only good for setting up initial bursts, it’s otherwise impossible to time tactically.

Yah. The nerf wasn’t good for S/D. It only helped to reintroduce the boon tank. It has left the S/D still overly focused on LS because of damage and evade, but now, ineffective against boons.
They should have nerfed the damage and increased the cost.

Okay so I rarely complain about nerfs, but this one’s kind of hit me home. LS’s nerf really stuck out to me when I was with my GF in a dredge area. I used to be able to steal their Protection no problem, but now I may need to invest at least 20 into trickery to be as remotely as effective as before. I can’t get at their protection because the single stack of Might is always in the way, and when there are a group of dredge, they simply reapply might before I can get off two LS’s (I know they aren’t doing it conciously)

I wasn’t for LS being nerfed in this way, an increased initiative cost would have sufficed in not making people spam it. Now one of my favourite ways to contribute to my team has been slashed, and it was one of the few ways I made a noticable impact in major boss encounters.

Now I realize that reverting LS and increasing init cost may not be a viable oftens, so as an alternative, could we change how LS prioritizes boons? I’d prefer it to go:
Protection, Stability, Might, Regen, Swiftness, Vigor, Fury, Aegis.

To any dev that may see this, thank you for your consideration.

Thief – Venoms that behave like Mantras

1) A Greatsaw (only 3 left ;w; )
1a) Togglable Shirts and customizable underwear
2) New weapon types
3) A new class (can’t think of a distinct heavy idea though)
4) More permanent content like Twilight Assault
5) New zones like Cantha w/o an expansion (don’t want to split the player base thx.)
(GW2 is a strong independent MMO dat don’t need no expansions (or elves))

Asside from the 75pt reward, how does this distinguish a roamer from a zerger? Also, what about 2 or 3 man roaming parties?

Imo, defender achievements would be a pain to get. Too much of a gamble, depending on your circumstances. The major problem is in this game, you can never definitively win a defense. You never win a defense because you beat the enemy, you win a defense because the enemy gave up. Unfortunately this problem comes with the territory in this game type, least imo. You can’t stop a respawning horde unless the devs do something drastic like, remove rezzing and only allow respawn on tick, I know some people want to remove rezzing, but I don’t think anyone wants to be stuck waiting so long for a respawn. Even then, all it would server to do is hold the enemy off till the tick, then a fresh wave could arrive.

Hmmmmm. Could this change have inadvertently hurt the zerg, on some small level?

A pistol that shoots bolas kinda tests my suspension of disbelief, but eh, I may find use for it in my contol/support build.

I know some of my fellow Yummers would. Shall I mention you to one of my leaders?

I think it’d be hard to make any content in this game too hard for any 80 gear. They’d need to add something unconventional, like Agony.

Wukunlin.8461:

Dual.8953:

ArchonWing.9480:

Dual.8953:

I feel the need to restate my concern about a damage meter, in relation to the arguement: “elitists already exist”. My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist. Many casuals don’t know what is truely optimal in the game, and since it’s difficult to prove what is optimal definitively, they consign them themselves to the fact that it doesn’t matter in the long run. However, it is in our basic human nature to persue what we believe is the “best”, which is why min/maxers and elitists exist. With a damage meter, we could have a better view of the best dps setup in the game, but this knowledge could promote a desire for casual layman to persue this “best”. This mentality converts what currently would be a casual player, into an elitist, demanding only the best.

I don’t get it. Trying to improve or seek something better doesn’t mean someone’s not casual.

This relies on a faulty assumption that casuals would like to remain ignorant, and elitists are going to use these statistics to min-max everything. But this just represents a false dichotomy. A lot of people wouldn’t say no to something that allows them to get what they want. At the same time, a lot of so-called “elitists” meaning the type that actively excludes and kicks people often don’t care about reasoning and numbers but rather just conforms to the fotm mentality that something is objectively the best without figuring out why… in reality they already made up their minds already.

My point is these so-called min-maxers are also the ones that frequently edit wiki pages so that people such as myself that are too lazy to figure it out on my own can know too. This is just really the same thing. What you view as toxic elitists is not the same as the people that actively explore the mechanics of the game, and it’s honestly quite insulting to them.

My problem isn’t the min/maxer who do legwork or want to improve themselves.
My problem is the players who disallow other players from joining parties.
I want players to be allowed to run what they like without being forced to conform to one specific build.
My concern is with a damage meter, players will find the highest dps build, and it will invalidate any build other then it in the eyes of the masses. All who don’t play that build will not be allowed into most parties; which I might add would halt experimentation.
I want players to be free to play as they choose, not be forced to run fotm. I realize this already happens to some degree, and I don’t want this attitude to permeate the entire player base.

But you wouldn’t want to run with those type of players anyway, would you?
The people who want highest dps pugs will ask you to ping gear or even tell them your build. They don’t need a damage meter.

I wouldn’t run with them, I just don’t want the chances of running into such a group to be any greater then it is now. I prefer them being a minority so most people don’t have to run into them on a regular basis, to not have to spend hours looking for a party, just because they aren’t running certain build.

ArchonWing.9480:

Dual.8953:

I feel the need to restate my concern about a damage meter, in relation to the arguement: “elitists already exist”. My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist. Many casuals don’t know what is truely optimal in the game, and since it’s difficult to prove what is optimal definitively, they consign them themselves to the fact that it doesn’t matter in the long run. However, it is in our basic human nature to persue what we believe is the “best”, which is why min/maxers and elitists exist. With a damage meter, we could have a better view of the best dps setup in the game, but this knowledge could promote a desire for casual layman to persue this “best”. This mentality converts what currently would be a casual player, into an elitist, demanding only the best.

I don’t get it. Trying to improve or seek something better doesn’t mean someone’s not casual.

This relies on a faulty assumption that casuals would like to remain ignorant, and elitists are going to use these statistics to min-max everything. But this just represents a false dichotomy. A lot of people wouldn’t say no to something that allows them to get what they want. At the same time, a lot of so-called “elitists” meaning the type that actively excludes and kicks people often don’t care about reasoning and numbers but rather just conforms to the fotm mentality that something is objectively the best without figuring out why… in reality they already made up their minds already.

My point is these so-called min-maxers are also the ones that frequently edit wiki pages so that people such as myself that are too lazy to figure it out on my own can know too. This is just really the same thing. What you view as toxic elitists is not the same as the people that actively explore the mechanics of the game, and it’s honestly quite insulting to them.

My problem isn’t the min/maxer who do legwork or want to improve themselves.
My problem is the players who disallow other players from joining parties.
I want players to be allowed to run what they like without being forced to conform to one specific build.
My concern is with a damage meter, players will find the highest dps build, and it will invalidate any build other then it in the eyes of the masses. All who don’t play that build will not be allowed into most parties; which I might add would halt experimentation.
I want players to be free to play as they choose, not be forced to run fotm. I realize this already happens to some degree, and I don’t want this attitude to permeate the entire player base.

I feel the need to restate my concern about a damage meter, in relation to the arguement: “elitists already exist”. My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist. Many casuals don’t know what is truely optimal in the game, and since it’s difficult to prove what is optimal definitively, they consign them themselves to the fact that it doesn’t matter in the long run. However, it is in our basic human nature to persue what we believe is the “best”, which is why min/maxers and elitists exist. With a damage meter, we could have a better view of the best dps setup in the game, but this knowledge could promote a desire for casual layman to persue this “best”. This mentality converts what currently would be a casual player, into an elitist, demanding only the best.
This shift in the general mentality of the could very well have toxic effects on the community. The ratio of casual to elitist could very well flip, to elitists outnumbering the casuals. The toxic mentality of the growing elitist population would likely make this game very unfriendly to casuals, anti-meta and newbie players, as the elitist masses would disallow them from joining their groups, and since they’d be the majority, it would be difficult for non-elitist to find parties.
This may seem like a dismal view of humanity, but from what of mmo communities, and western society in general, I don’t think my concerns are unfounded.