Guild Wars 2

My guide can be found here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-A-Mesmer-Guide-to-Solo-Queue/first#post4060868

It’s fairly comprehensive on general strategies/tactics in Solo Queue, and applies to soloing in Team Queue as well. It includes a sorta 3/4 complete guide on how to use that build for fighting various matchups.

PU builds will still be very strong in most situations. The main difference is that non-PU condition builds that rely in a large part on clone-deaths are going to suddenly find that they’re in need of more defense due to their offense being hamstrung. They will then tend more towards PU builds as a result. Overall, you’ll end up with more PU mesmers than before.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

keenlam.4753:

When it comes to might-stacking for mesmers, I can only think of 2 ways: Bountiful Interruption and Shattered Strength. Maybe next patch, celestial mesmer can become viable with something like this?
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQJARWlknpRt1oxQNcrNCuxYyFaA1BNUSlMgfB-TJxHwADuEAa2fAwTAoYZAA

Only 2 ways? You have GS2 and Staff auto in the build you pinged.

Just the sigil of battle alone can maintain 9 before the GS2 adds another 6.
2 interrupts every 16 seconds is enough to cap you at 25.
Alternatively, just using GS2 on CD will maintain around 12 by itself.
So I’m not getting Pyro and his mesmers cant stack might talk. It’s not AOE so it’s not group support but that’s not the point since we’re talking celestial builds utilizing power and condi dmg.

Persionally I’d run IP or MtD instead of ID in that build. Maybe Sc/P instead of staff.

The problem is that there’s a ton of conditionals in there.

Sigils of battle can maintain 9 stacks iff you swap on cooldown every time. Eles/engineers/warriors can do this pretty easily, but mesmers can’t expect to do that. Our weapon swaps are a valuable resource, and swapping on cooldown every time will leave you stuck in bad weaponsets very often. Therefor, you can assume 3-6 from sigils.

GS2 can add another 6 iff you’re close enough to catch the bounces, there’s no other allies (including illusions) much closer than you, and there’s no other enemies closer than you to catch the bounces. Mirror blade will get you a decent amount of might now and then, but it’s absolutely not reliable.

Interrupts are also absolutely not reliable. They depend on so many variables that you can’t count on them. You can count on them as part of some burst rotations, and that allows the might to amplify your burst. However, the point of might in a celestial build is to have a constant offensive increase for sustained damage and condition damage, and might from interrupts simply can’t do that (same thing with shattered strength here).

Basically, you can stack some small amounts of might reliably, but you don’t have the ability to consistently maintain high stacks like an ele/engineer/warrior can with blast finishers and rapid weapon swapping. That’s why it doesn’t work.

aelfwe.4239:

Fay.2357:

@aelfwe: Last time I checked, I took a staff when playing PU condie. What part of taking that grandmaster trait prevents me from fully utilizing the capabilities of staff?

Where i wrote something like this?

Im just complainin people who cryes for dd nerf without taking in consideration what staff and ie fix will bring to pu build after patch.

Its a trade between ie fix+staff for dd nerf, and, gameplay wise, its a good trade.

Explain to me why ‘gameplay wise’ it’s a good trade? You’re simply trading one passive condition application for another.

As I said earlier, the argument could easily be made that DD was less passive than IE. With DD, you need to worry about having your opponent in the explosion radius. With IE, you just need to keep spamming staff clones and letting them autoattack.

Both traits are purely passive boosts to their respective builds. Neither have interesting counter play, and neither have almost any active component whatsoever. The only difference is that taking IE forces you to burn 20 trait points in illusions instead of domination (yay diversity…?).

@aelfwe: Last time I checked, I took a staff when playing PU condie. What part of taking that grandmaster trait prevents me from fully utilizing the capabilities of staff?

Swish.2463:

Staff. No explanation needed.

Please tell me you’re joking.

@OP: There’s a stickied thread called ‘How to Mesmer in dungeons’. It should have all the answers you need.

zaxon.6819:

you are being ignorant. every weapon has the same amount of active abilities. because scepter has a block and confusion beam dosent mean its auto attack becomes active.

ie is passive nomatter what the rest of the weapon does. for you to even argue anything else is silly.

are you saying that if blackwater uses staff then it is not passive? because your logic dosent even line up.

Exactly, this is the ridiculous thing about everyone going on about how this patch is a victory for active gameplay.

Since when is maintaining 3 staff clones and letting hem autoattack ‘active’ gameplay? That’s arguably even less active than clone deaths, since you at least have to worry about the explosion radius with those.

The IE fix is a good change, but anyone arguing that it promotes active gameplay is simply deluding themselves.

Celestial is not even remotely viable on Mesmer because Mesmer has no reasonable way to stack might.

Celestial on its own is lowish condition damage and power, producing a build with no offensive teeth at all. Celestial when running with 20-25 stacks of might, however, suddenly has highish condition damage and power, producing a build with good offense of all types, along with reasonable defense, a very strong build.

Mesmer can’t stack might, therefor Mesmer can’t use celestial.

On skyhammer if I’m actually trying to win, I’ll only run one build: scepter/focus + gs with 20/20/30 PU traits and blink, decoy, and pDisenchanter (though the traits are mainly because I’m too lazy to change them and they work, you could trait more optimally).

I only play on the hammer platform. That allows me to control any and all fights. It puts the enemy team into a hard situation: they can either try to dislodge me (not easy) or let me rain death on the map.

Basically, engineers have extremely limited access to stability. With focus and greatsword, you can throw anyone off of any part of the hammer platform at will, letting the pDisenchanter deal with stability. I like to use temporal curtain to position them, and then swap instantly to gs to chuck them off the side with iWave. This combo instagibs just about anyone that’s already on the hammer, and can be used to instagib anyone that enters, as long as you set it up properly. Just don’t let the engineer get set up, chuck them off the side the moment they appear.

zaxon.6819:

whhy does pu need protection /aegis at all when they spend 90 percent of a fight in stealth dodge rolling. if you cant live with a torch / decoy /massinvis / and alot of times even veil.. then you should not be playing the game at all. your only time out of stealth can be scepter blocking. but that just shows how bad and useless the spec is.

Wow
Much hyperbole
Such exaggeration

Seriously, that entire paragraph is just one massive block of exaggeration and falsities. If you want to complain about PU, then go for it, but at least keep your complaints within the realm of sanity…

Solori.6025:

Fay.2357:

The PU nerfs are minor in comparison to the clone death nerfs.

Look a PU this way. Now a PU Mesmer also has innate access to both might and swiftness without needing to swap a focus or use stuff like battle runes. That’s more mobility, more chasing ability, and more pressure, for a small sacrifice of defense.

The clone death nerfs, on the other hand, are a perfect example of the Anet brand whack-a-mole balancing. Making them dodgeable, blockable, and blindable is an enormous nerf, on top of an additional unnecessary nerf to an already unreliable bleed application. Those aspects were what let the traits be strong against perma-evade spamming thieves, against blind spam from thieves and guardians and engineers, and just in general made the traits unique and strong.

Absolutely massive nerf. PU condie builds will still work of course, but what this really hits is any non-PU build that is based on those traits. Now the defense and sustain of PU will be 100% essential to viably play a condition build. Once again, Anet succeeds in limiting Mesmer build diversity with heavy handed nerf batting.

I disagree with some but I will wait to play with the changes before I make a final judgement on the matter.

I think with the changes to IE the clone death traits being mitagatable will be minamal
Especially considering you can make more very easily.

The access to having might and swiftness on PU is both a blessing and a curse i think.
The main thing people used that trait for was the access to prot and aegis. Both of which are ridiculously strong boons to have almost every 20 seconds.

We’ll see, is what I am putting this under.

With the clone death changes, good luck fighting something like a pistol whip or S/D thief. The thing is that the clone deaths countered the mindless defensive spam that is prevalent in the game. It means thieves couldn’t just spam blinds or evades and cleave their way through your clones, and it meant that engies spamming blind fields and grenades would get loaded up with condies regardless of their point-wide blinds.

Now that’s all gone. It also means that clone deaths will be even more useless in groups than they were before, due to random dodges and aegis spam. Basically, it’s just an unnecessary nerf to an interesting mechanic.

The PU nerfs are minor in comparison to the clone death nerfs.

Look a PU this way. Now a PU Mesmer also has innate access to both might and swiftness without needing to swap a focus or use stuff like battle runes. That’s more mobility, more chasing ability, and more pressure, for a small sacrifice of defense.

The clone death nerfs, on the other hand, are a perfect example of the Anet brand whack-a-mole balancing. Making them dodgeable, blockable, and blindable is an enormous nerf, on top of an additional unnecessary nerf to an already unreliable bleed application. Those aspects were what let the traits be strong against perma-evade spamming thieves, against blind spam from thieves and guardians and engineers, and just in general made the traits unique and strong.

Absolutely massive nerf. PU condie builds will still work of course, but what this really hits is any non-PU build that is based on those traits. Now the defense and sustain of PU will be 100% essential to viably play a condition build. Once again, Anet succeeds in limiting Mesmer build diversity with heavy handed nerf batting.

Absconditus.6804:

Why would you burst your whole nut of conditions in the first push. You’d use the auto attacks to force out cleansing, then you would apply as much conditions as you can. With a potential 1200 damage per second from simply auto attacking out Torment, you are likely to be forcing some players to cleanse. If you see your HP drop drastically as you try to move around to avoid damage, you’re likely to cause the opponent to spend some cleanses. What good does that do them, the stacks are instantly building up again, now they have no cleanses for a while, and you can burst out your conditions by actually spending some cooldowns. This is also not taking into account the damage from the Power-attribute of the attacks, nor Bleeds from clones, clones exploding, such things.

So what you’re saying is that an opponent that lets you stand around doing nothing but using a brutally slow autoattack for about 20 seconds will die to 1-spam? Hmz, I suppose you’re right.

Fortunately for most of us, we’re a bit more reactive than that, and we won’t let a mesmer stand around casting an incredibly slow autoattack that applies torment. You don’t see people standing around spamming scepter autos now, and you won’t see it after the patch, because the autoattack is still incredibly abysmal.

This change doesn’t make the autoattack any better, it just makes the clones marginally more useful. If you die to a mesmer spamming nothing but one skill, I’m not sure what to say.

zaxon.6819:

because.. most people that play pu are just not good enough to not play without pu.. they will do everything they can to stay in stealth as much as they can manage to avoid fighitng. people that rely on pu to play will literally cut their damage in half to have pu,.

I’m curious, what condition damage is being lost by taking 4/4/6? See, a PU condition build is fundamentally different than condition shatter. A PU build functions on clone deaths, which are a far stronger and more reliable condition application than shatters, and that’s the difference.

KeyLimPi.9031:

Sagat.3285:

Just 1 class and you complain? Diamond skin can counter a whole set-up,condition necro own boon classes and has higher win rate against other condition builds…

Changing a class mechanic for 1 trait only seems very minor,very very minor.

Diamond skin doesn’t make something useless completely, just gives a buffer. I’m stating that there’s an inherent flaw with the design. You either don’t see it or simply want to pretend you don’t. Either way, that’s what I’m explaining. The problem is that it’s completely negated by thief, of any build.

Diamond skin is great, it’s also a 30 point investment, can still be hurt by physical damage, and doesn’t grant complete immunity. Power Lock is a 30 point investment that is ignored with no investment. You’ll notice I haven’t said that it’s “unfair” or “OP”, just that it’s bad mechanical design.

Just a tip. You won’t convince him that he’s wrong, just ignore him and he’ll go away.

Sagat.3285:

skills are weaker because you can activate them multiple times

Haha wat.

Yes, heartseeker is very weak. Yes, pistol whip, much weak. Yes, flanking strike/larcenous strike, incredibly weak. Oh yes, a teleport immobilize condition removal, very weak. Hm, a blinding field, oh yes quite weak. Yeah, you’re so wrong it hurts.

Sagat.3285:

swap weapon still got the same initiative, initiative is too fragile but fits the role of thief.

And so according to you, the role of thief is….to be completely immune to anything that might impact their unrestricted skill spamming?

Sagat.3285:

They weren’t meant to be is why. Every weapons carries specific downsides and especially post patch, don’t mention p/d it lacks mobility and just like d/d heavily reliant on CnD,missing it hurts.

Yes, every weapon has specific downsides. Guess who else that applies to…..no, you guessed wrong. The proper answer is…. EVERYONE ELSE. See, every class has downsides associated with their weapons. The difference is that when a mesmer with power block interrupts them, they get punished for it. Thieves don’t. Remind me why you’re so special again?

Edit: Honestly, you may as well just not continue this. Nobody here thinks you’re right, and with good reason. @OP: Until Anet decides that thieves should be punished for skill spamming, nothing will really change, but I suppose we can hope.

Sagat.3285:

Thief losing initiative and skills usage CD is not enough?

Well, you’re actually wrong on both accounts.

First, most thief skills will not actually cost initiative if you interrupt them too early. This means that the thief will often just get off scot-free if you don’t actually interrupt them at the right part of the skill.

You also seem to think that power block puts thief skills on CD. This is incorrect. Power block has absolutely no effect on thief skills whatsoever. It used to, but it was patched out as apparently requiring thieves to put thought into their skill spam was not intended by Anet.

Korusef.3714:

Pure PU condi build is also hard countered by bunker Diamond Skin Ele. You simply do not do enough non-condi damage to get them below 90% and if you do they heal quickly.

Nah, you just have to be intelligent with how you attack. The iWarlock, confusing images, and chaos storm all do quite decent power damage. Once you have the ele below 90%, you can apply conditions rapidly.

Remember that an ele will have maybe 20k health as an absolute maximum. More normal amounts are 13k-15k. This means to hit 90% only takes 1.3k-2k damage. That’s really not a lot. Also note that taking diamond skin means that they lose a significant amount of condition removal as well, so they’ll drop quickly once you start loading condies.

MSFone.3026:

Or do people think the 50% duration buff to MtD (4 sec to 6 sec) doesn’t change anything really? I remember before the conclusion of some testing in another thread was that maim just wasn’t viable.

This is accurate. It was the wrong change. The problem with MtD is that it’s not a bursty skill (trait), but it’s locked into an inherently bursty playstyle: shatters. Since that mismatch exists, it causes the whole build to just not work together properly. You’re playing bursty, trying to coordinate and land bursts…but then your “burst” can be completely annulled by a quick condition removal, or even someone standing still.

The change it needed was to drastically boost the stacks it applied, while reducing the duration a little bit to compensate. This allows you to actually burst with it, in the way that shatters have to be, instead of using a burst mechanic to apply sustained damage.

Henrik.7560:

Come to me. I’m the right person. I am training at least 3 other mesmers. If you want to be a pro who destroys all, PM me.

…wat

vincecontix.1264:

Except PU condition memser is more faceroll than just about everything you listed with about highest survivability of any spec. Something that is easy to play should not become meta even with out pu condition mesmer is still very strong. They can have the torment on auto but should not have pu and the same time. It should be made a trait so mesmer would have to choose.

I’m curious, why are you so worried about torment when many people have shown mathematically that staff clones do significantly higher damage with far greater reliability?

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

It is kind of important since the condition that comes last will be cleansed first.

Unfortunately, this is not accurate. Some condition removals tend towards this sort of behavior, but not all of them. Often it seems that removals will focus on high stack numbers, whether intensity or duration stacks.

As for boon stripping, I’ve done a bit of testing.

iDisenchanter, shattered concentration, and sword autoattacks all have no discernible priority for boon stripping.

In this case, Helseth is right, but for the wrong reasons. This is particularly annoying, because it means that everyone who gets annoyed by him being…yeah…immediately decides that he’s wrong.

The scepter change is bad because it was simply a poorly conceived change. It doesn’t fix the problems with the autoattack (unreliable, brutally slow, incredibly boring). It simply slaps on some torment to produce clones that do less damage than staff clones, but it’s still linked to this incredibly poorly designed attack.

The main problem is that with this change being released, it means that the “Changes to Scepter Autoattack” ticket has been removed from the queue of things that the devs are looking to changes. Basically, if we want to have an actually usable autoattack, we’re starting back from square one, and that’s the biggest problem.

Looking at this build, I suppose I’m just a bit confused as to how you expect to do damage. Your stats are reasonable for a defensive build, but you have no trait support for damage whatsoever.

You say you use it sorta like a shatter build, but without compounding power, illusionary persona, mental torment (or halting strike), you simply won’t have strong shatters.

You also won’t get much damage from your phantasms. The iMage is useless for damage of course, so that limits you to the iZerker. The iZerker is fine, but you have no phantasm damage mods, nor anything to boost the durability of the phantasm, meaning it’ll die with an autoattack or two.

Basically, this build is quite durable between PU and your 2800 armor, but you have close to 0 offense. Your personal damage is very low of course (since that’s just how Mesmer damage is), but your shatters and phantasms are both weak, meaning anyone with reasonable sustain will have no difficulty surviving against you.

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

For other classes yeah, but with someone using interrupts no. 3 is an easy bait. On your original idea, are you referring to same projectile speed? And the melee clones, what do they do on their attacks?

It’s actually great to use it as bait for interrupts in a lot of cases. You can pretty much guarantee someone trying to interrupt it, and so that allows you to either quickly catch it with a block, or put the interrupt on cooldown for a cast that actually matters.

Whadya mean? So cancel 3 while channeling and quickly press 2?

Yep.

StickerHappy.8052:

For other classes yeah, but with someone using interrupts no. 3 is an easy bait. On your original idea, are you referring to same projectile speed? And the melee clones, what do they do on their attacks?

It’s actually great to use it as bait for interrupts in a lot of cases. You can pretty much guarantee someone trying to interrupt it, and so that allows you to either quickly catch it with a block, or put the interrupt on cooldown for a cast that actually matters.

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

Dirame.8521:

Fay.2357:

Please note that scepter clones only use the first attack in the chain. This is how it always has been, and how it always will be. The clones do not generate more clones. This would be incredibly broken.

Nothing in my comment says anything about clones spawning more clones. That’s not what self-perpetuating means in that comment.

I’m fairly sure that is what it means in that comment. They said you can put up one clone, then go to sleep while ‘self perpetuating clones’ do all the work. The definition of self-perpetuating is literally ‘creating more of oneself’. Therefor, I felt the need to clarify that scepter clones do not self perpetuate, on top of the obvious fact that scepter clones won’t do as much damage as staff clones do.

Youre idea still intrigues me, but we still have to rework no. 3, whattya think?

Nothing is particularly wrong with number 3. It’s a tiny bit on the clunky side, but you can use the long cast time to bait out dodges and stuff. A rework would be nice I suppose, but very low priority compared to the literally unusable autoattack.

Dirame.8521:

Fay.2357:

Please note that scepter clones only use the first attack in the chain. This is how it always has been, and how it always will be. The clones do not generate more clones. This would be incredibly broken.

Nothing in my comment says anything about clones spawning more clones. That’s not what self-perpetuating means in that comment.

I’m fairly sure that is what it means in that comment. They said you can put up one clone, then go to sleep while ‘self perpetuating clones’ do all the work. The definition of self-perpetuating is literally ‘creating more of oneself’. Therefor, I felt the need to clarify that scepter clones do not self perpetuate, on top of the obvious fact that scepter clones won’t do as much damage as staff clones do.

Dirame.8521:

I vote NO because I know how to make it OP and I also know a bunch of people who know what I know.

Also this;

Torment on Scepter 1 was just ridiculous, considering that now Clones will apply it as well. PU; whilst having pretty much no role in PvP due to preponderance on Stealth and poor mobility making it unsuited to the Conquest gametype, is nonetheless one of the most anti-fun builds to fight against with one of the lowest skill floors; and remains one of the top duelists in WvW (if people don’t run away). This Torment change will drop the skill floor to below that of Axe-Mace GS PvE Warrior in mindless self indulgence. Heck, with this change, PU can now auto-chain until a clone is generated, stealth, and go take a nap whilst self-perpetuating clones do all the pressuring. Using any form of active play like Shatters would actually be counterproductive; which speaks to the stupidity of the setup. It’s a stupid change with a negative skill floor; all the while Anet’s design team trumpets wanting to encourage “active play.”

As seen in the comment section here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6P9ONocc2o

Please note that scepter clones only use the first attack in the chain. This is how it always has been, and how it always will be. The clones do not generate more clones. This would be incredibly broken.

Several issues here.

The most glaring one, of course, is your total lack of condition removal. Your access to invuln/reflect is inconsequential. It only lasts one second and so is pretty much completely useless against most condition classes. A standard condie anything will eat you; Mesmer, warrior, necro, engie, etc. You absolutely need condition removal. Shatter builds can sometimes get away with none, but they’re accepting the risk in return for massive bursting power, which you have none of.

Next, you’re using a celestial amulet. This is bad, and it’s bad for the standard reasons I’ve said so many times before. You have 0 capacity to stack might. No, IE on staff clones will not stack might. IE causes the clone WoC to bounce from you back to the enemy for an extra damage hit, it doesn’t provide an extra hit of boons. You’ll have no might.

So, having no might the celestial amulet leaves you with low condition damage and low power damage. You have pretty much ignorable offense, and even glassy builds will be able to kill you at their leisure. You’ve also got traveler runes instead of an actually useful rune set, and so that adds to the problem even more.

Other problems. Invuln on the signets is not half as useful as most people think it is. You have 3 signets. One is the heal signet.

By taking the heal signet, you’ve now substantially lowered your healing output. Additionally, you can’t really use that signet to avoid damage with invuln, because to do so would leave you without any form of healing for 30 seconds.

You also have the signet of domination. Now, the interesting thing about this one is that it stuns for 3s on activation. So if you land a 3 second stun, why are you in need of invulnerability? Additionally, the 1/4s cast time makes it difficult to use effectively for defense.

The signet of midnight is also a bit of a conundrum. If you’re using the invuln to avoid a hit, what do you need the stunbreak for?

Basically, the whole concept of invuln on these 3 signets makes no sense. You can’t use the heal for invuln due to losing your heal and the long cast time. Using the stun signet for invuln makes no sense because it stuns, and using the stunbreak (and blind) signet for invuln simply means you don’t need the other 2/3 of its functionality. This is why the invuln on signets trait is bad. It simply makes 0 sense.

So I think you need to somewhat clarify more exactly what you’re actually trying to accomplish with this build. You say that you often get forced off of points due to cc and pressure, but are you referring to team fights? Are you aiming to have this build able to stick to a point in a team fight then?

This build is too glassy to hold a point in a team fight. In a 1v1, you can hold a point using most any build if you play it properly. Overall, this just appears to be a pretty normal 1v1 interrupt build that just happens to take melandru runes, and those won’t really massively change how it plays.

Sethren.8472:

3) PvE condition build needed a major buff to make it viable. This is certainly a step in the right direction.

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one. It’s a step in the right direction in the same sense that hopping on a trampoline is getting me closer to a moon landing. There are so many systemic changes that need to be made before condition anything even becomes remotely viable, this change means simply nothing.

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

Lily.1935:

So I ended up doing the calculations and the Scepter AA is out classed most of the time by the Staff’s auto.

Assuming that you have 3 of either clone using the scepter or staff, the staff’s damage output, although less consistent then the scepter does more damage on average. Scepter being 996 while the foe is moving with the trait Malicious sorcery. The Staff averaged 1381. Now this is taking into consideration only the duration of the conditions applied for 1 single attack from each of the clones. The staff does have a 26%(rounded up) chance to be lower then the scepter AA.

My calculations do not account for all factors but I would hope it at least gives you an idea.

We can throw a couple more factors in too. Hard to slap numbers to them, but it can show which way the results skew.

Scepter clones use a slow-moving, non-homing bolt. This means that they’re very prone to missing if used on a moving target. Winds of Chaos from staff clones home, giving them a very high success rate for actually landing the attacks.

Torment only ticks at maximum strength on a moving target. Targets won’t be moving continually, and so that will lower the total damage by some amount.

Lastly, malicious sorcery will be taken incredibly rarely, simply due to trait constraints, so that lowers the numbers even more.

I know its a no from you pyro, but any suggestion to make it a better condition weapon? I hate # 3 honestly and the AA so any change would be a yes for me. Heck even vuln or weakness is good too.

Even just increasing the Speed is good too. For#3, i dont like the fact that its channeled, maybe change it to be something like the wrench to give instant stacks og confusion.

PS: I said condition weapon just for the sake of the patch, because Anet wants it to be one.

Well, here’s my suggestion, variations of which I’ve offered multiple times:

1. Scepter clones now behave as melee. This causes them to cluster onto their target, making scepter uniquely suited for clone-death builds, as it would be the only condition damage mainhand that has clones attempting to stay close.
2. Scepter autoattack is now completely reworked
   1. First attack is a slow projectile, basically the same as we have now. If this lands, it activates the next chain.
   2. Second attack is a hit-scan attack that summons a clone on the target
   3. Third attack is the interesting one. This is a hit-scan attack that checks within X radius of the target for illusions, then applies a 2s cripple for each illusion in that radius

Basically, these changes make the scepter clones useful without adding damaging condition spam to the game. Additionally, it adds a highly conditional, but potentially very strong cripple attack to the autoattack. The key here is that with skilled play, i.e. clustering clones on the target properly, you can effectively land that cripple boosted with 3 illusions, and that land combos nicely into landing it again. However, the target can watch the animations and either dodge away from the clones or otherwise avoid them to counter that hit of cripple, thereby having skilled counterplay available.

But nobody listens to me, so w/e.

Wow, i never thought of it this way, Just my 2 cents, since the clones would go melee, i think its better to boost their walking speed by 10% to ensure that they do stick (just for the scepter clones)

Also, what is a hit scan? ;p

hit-scan = the type of attack that necro scepter and axe uses.

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

Lily.1935:

So I ended up doing the calculations and the Scepter AA is out classed most of the time by the Staff’s auto.

Assuming that you have 3 of either clone using the scepter or staff, the staff’s damage output, although less consistent then the scepter does more damage on average. Scepter being 996 while the foe is moving with the trait Malicious sorcery. The Staff averaged 1381. Now this is taking into consideration only the duration of the conditions applied for 1 single attack from each of the clones. The staff does have a 26%(rounded up) chance to be lower then the scepter AA.

My calculations do not account for all factors but I would hope it at least gives you an idea.

We can throw a couple more factors in too. Hard to slap numbers to them, but it can show which way the results skew.

Scepter clones use a slow-moving, non-homing bolt. This means that they’re very prone to missing if used on a moving target. Winds of Chaos from staff clones home, giving them a very high success rate for actually landing the attacks.

Torment only ticks at maximum strength on a moving target. Targets won’t be moving continually, and so that will lower the total damage by some amount.

Lastly, malicious sorcery will be taken incredibly rarely, simply due to trait constraints, so that lowers the numbers even more.

I know its a no from you pyro, but any suggestion to make it a better condition weapon? I hate # 3 honestly and the AA so any change would be a yes for me. Heck even vuln or weakness is good too.

Even just increasing the Speed is good too. For#3, i dont like the fact that its channeled, maybe change it to be something like the wrench to give instant stacks og confusion.

PS: I said condition weapon just for the sake of the patch, because Anet wants it to be one.

Well, here’s my suggestion, variations of which I’ve offered multiple times:

1. Scepter clones now behave as melee. This causes them to cluster onto their target, making scepter uniquely suited for clone-death builds, as it would be the only condition damage mainhand that has clones attempting to stay close.
2. Scepter autoattack is now completely reworked
   1. First attack is a slow projectile, basically the same as we have now. If this lands, it activates the next chain.
   2. Second attack is a hit-scan attack that summons a clone on the target
   3. Third attack is the interesting one. This is a hit-scan attack that checks within X radius of the target for illusions, then applies a 2s cripple for each illusion in that radius

Basically, these changes make the scepter clones useful without adding damaging condition spam to the game. Additionally, it adds a highly conditional, but potentially very strong cripple attack to the autoattack. The key here is that with skilled play, i.e. clustering clones on the target properly, you can effectively land that cripple boosted with 3 illusions, and that land combos nicely into landing it again. However, the target can watch the animations and either dodge away from the clones or otherwise avoid them to counter that hit of cripple, thereby having skilled counterplay available.

But nobody listens to me, so w/e.

Lily.1935:

So I ended up doing the calculations and the Scepter AA is out classed most of the time by the Staff’s auto.

Assuming that you have 3 of either clone using the scepter or staff, the staff’s damage output, although less consistent then the scepter does more damage on average. Scepter being 996 while the foe is moving with the trait Malicious sorcery. The Staff averaged 1381. Now this is taking into consideration only the duration of the conditions applied for 1 single attack from each of the clones. The staff does have a 26%(rounded up) chance to be lower then the scepter AA.

My calculations do not account for all factors but I would hope it at least gives you an idea.

We can throw a couple more factors in too. Hard to slap numbers to them, but it can show which way the results skew.

Scepter clones use a slow-moving, non-homing bolt. This means that they’re very prone to missing if used on a moving target. Winds of Chaos from staff clones home, giving them a very high success rate for actually landing the attacks.

Torment only ticks at maximum strength on a moving target. Targets won’t be moving continually, and so that will lower the total damage by some amount.

Lastly, malicious sorcery will be taken incredibly rarely, simply due to trait constraints, so that lowers the numbers even more.

Southern.8973:

Michael Henninger.7451:

timmyf.1490:

This is really cool information! Thanks Talon.

Also, and not to be overly snarky here, but this is a good example of one of the ways players can feel like we’re not receiving the necessary communication from ArenaNet. I’ve been playing this game for 731 days (though a paltry 2200 hours or so) and I just today learned that official communications from a GM have a special chat color.

We’ve only recently started using visible and active GMs in the game. Prior to say – 2 months ago? – you wouldn’t have seen a GM.

Look for us more as we’re slowly ramping up our presence.

This IS absolutely awesome news. Really appreciate that.

GM’s are going to be innundated with “Can you give me a Legendary?”, “Duel me!”, and other snarky type chat, though.

Generally GM systems are set up so that you can reply to a whisper, but you can’t actually initiate one.

Anton.1769:

Riccardo.7254:

Anton.1769:

bers>>asassin ewerywhere except reflects. No reflects -> bers gear

is there any good mesmer build that does not run Feedback or iWardens? :P

just calculate what percent of all your damage deal feedback.
ppl use asassin for feedback mega damage from some bosses like Lupi

Well, the main thing is that the mesmer primary role in a team is a reflect provider, so taking assassins lets you fit your role more accurately.

TooBz.3065:

Yes. Any change to the scepter is better than none. This weapon was been terrible for a long time.

Unfortunately, this is false. Take a look at the last couple paragraphs of my previous response. When you get a change that’s simply insufficient, it doesn’t mean they’re partway to a good change, it means they’ve simply reset the clock entirely on any more changes.

Sandrox.9524:

Now if anet would have given us proper condi cleanse,I would’nt complain,but instead they buffing THEM!

Hmm, proper condie cleanse?

Proper condie cleanse like…..

A skill that removes 2 conditions every 4 seconds while also stripping 2 boons, and does this with a bouncing projectile that hits up to 5 targets?

A skill that removes 2 aoe conditions instantly, has 2 charges, has a cooldown of 20 seconds, and can be traited for lower cooldown, aoe healing on charge, and 3 charges?

Or what about a trait that just passively adds condition removal to your heal?

But wait, there’s more!

If you’re using a torch, you can take this handy trait to turn both torch skills into condition removals!

When using a focus, place the temporal curtain on top of the iWarden as it spins for additional cleansing bolts!

If you like hurting your enemy while removing conditions, Arcane thievery transfers conditions, and steals boons at the same time!

For all of your teamfight needs, Null Field is an aoe boon strip/condition removal that doubles as an ethereal field!

Mesmer has plenty of proper condition cleanses. You just choose not to use them.

Aluren.1896:

-snippity snip-

Here’s the main issues with this change.

I don’t think anyone has ever said ‘gosh, I think spammable conditions on autoattacks is creative and solid game design’. The problem is that there’s very little middle ground with this type of mechanic. It’ll either be mostly inconsequential (this change), or massively overpowered (underwater trident pre-nerf). This comes from the basic mechanics. If the conditions are strong enough to be impactful, then the only counter is non-stop condition removal spam. If they aren’t strong enough to be impactful, then it’s completely useless.

Basically, this change falls squarely into the ‘completely useless’ category. Will it make some builds stronger? Yeah, it will. PU condition builds will gain a modest amount of pressure, but staff clones already hit harder with long duration bleeds + burning, so it’s not like conditions on clone attacks is a new principle. Will this change make condition shatter (torment shatter) builds viable? Nope, not even close. So there’s basically no positive impact for this change, the only thing it does is slightly buff some already strong builds.

Additionally, it absolutely reeks of lazy design. What this change says to me is this:

“We realize that there is a problem with the scepter autoattack, because people keep telling us so. We have no idea how to make it interesting, unique, and useful, so instead we’ll just slap on some torment and call it a day.”

There are so many changes that could have been implemented here to make the scepter a useful and/or unique and interesting condition weapon for mesmer. Simply adding a taste of torment to the autoattack is neither useful, nor unique, nor interesting. Even worse, it means that Anet has now washed their hands of this attack.

“We’ve addressed your concerns with the scepter autoattack, so now we’ll move on to other things.”

The fact that this change was rolled out means it went through all the lengthy steps that any change goes through. It means that in order to have an actually positive change made to the scepter autoattack, we’re starting back at square 1, with 0 progress.

Summary

This change does not make any previously un-viable builds viable. This change slightly buffs already strong builds. This change does not make the scepter autoattack any less brutally slow and clunky. The changed scepter autoattack is still woefully deficient in many ways, but has been bumped off of the development queue due to this change. For all of these reasons, this change is unequivocally horrid.

unlucky.9285:

you say vashery like it is meant to mean something useful to me.. that name doesn’t show up on yt unless its a twitch thing

He spelled it wrong.

Vashury: Owner of the gnarliest shatter bursting known to GW2.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=vashury

LordByron.8369:

-snip-

I’ll let colesy pick up this one…

Cygnus.6903:

Actually, half our Grandmaster traits never see use due to being underpowered or plain useless.

Really, you can extend that statement quite a lot. It would also be true to say ‘A majority of grandmaster traits for every class in the game never see use due to being underpowered and/or completely useless’. It’s a systemic problem for sure.

LordByron.8369:

GS is best illusion spamming non condition weapon

So why does illusion spamming matter in dungeons?

LordByron.8369:

the second best aoe weapon.

Cleave on sword gives you all the aoe you need in dungeons, there’s no need for more than that.

LordByron.8369:

gives huge cripple uptime.

I’m…not entirely sure why you’re worrying with cripple in dungeons. You’ve got cripple/immob on sword anyway.

LordByron.8369:

Best push/pull combination with focus

You should only need 1 pull, and the focus provides that.

LordByron.8369:

Has Boon strip

So does sword. Every third autoattack. Clones do it too, so that’s an added bonus.

LordByron.8369:

-Svanir shaman
Spam 3 iduelist under the farthest wall.
Camp with GS since he won t kill any of those 3 for the Whole fight.

Or you could spam 3 iDuelists and then melee with sword and do far higher damage than camping with greatsword.

LordByron.8369:

-svanir ice elemental
Spam shatter to kill top part

Or you could melee it while casting phantasms and do far higher damage than you could camping greatsword and shattering.

LordByron.8369:

-dredge
Having aoes is useful to kill dredges. (less since patch).

Except it’s more useful to be able to pull the dredge into a corner with focus, and then simply cleave them down with sword and the rest of your team. You’re not soloing this, remember.

LordByron.8369:

-Cliffside:
crippling boss is good

Crippling the boss does nothing. It’s not like he’s moving fast running around the map. He’s walking slowly and every now and then does a large leap attack…which won’t be stopped by cripple.

LordByron.8369:

-uncategorized 3 minibosses:
Ettin won t kill iduelists if placed correctly.

Which is why you place iDuelists, and then go in and melee, since he won’t kill you if you play well instead of camping greatsword and doing no damage.

LordByron.8369:

-taumanova
the boss seems not good at dealing with phantasms also you don t want to melee this.

This is actually a boss I’d bring a greatsword on in pug parties…but only as a backup if all of the tiles around it get popped. You still melee it until that happens.

LordByron.8369:

-bloomhunger
someone has to kill spirits
If you lack a staff ele, mesmer will be the best choice.

Not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. Mesmer’s primary job at bloomhunger is to stack iWardens and make sure that it’s covered in reflects. You can let pretty much any other class take care of the spirits just fine. If you’re actually that antsy about killing them, you can take mantra of pain and use that.

LordByron.8369:

TLDR:
When mechanics can be avoided by stacking and dpsing like most dungeons, you don’t use GS (in most cases you don t even need 2 weaponsets)

When dungeon are harder you want GS for many reasons.
another example is TA aetherpat.

TL;DR: If you’re good enough to dodge attacks using your dodge button and blurred frenzy, then you don’t need a greatsword and you can melee encounters.

LordByron.8369:

First reason to not use GS is most “dungeon elitists” can only understand what they saw on youtube/forum.
If you have a GS even if you save the day many times and carry everyone, will think you are bad because you have a GS.
It happens for everything not documented by PvE guilds not only mesmer GS.

If you’re at the skill level where you need to camp greatsword to survive, you’re not going to be saving the day, that’s just not going to happen.

Justin.5231:

Hi, I am struggling with a great condi build on my mesmer. There are a LOT of different train lines that offer different types of conditions, so I’m not sure which lines and conditions are best to focus on.

Here is a link to simply see my traits easily and weapons. (I couldn’t figure out how to add armor).

Right now I’m running Full rabid with perplexity runes

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7flknpUttqxQNUrRCqxYuZQ1XkMiAKbIfD

The main thing I try to keep up is confusion and torment when I can. But if there is a better traiting for me that will do more DOT, please let me know I am currently running with a group that wants me to focus on mainly being able to load the enemies with conditions from a distance.

EDIT: Also wondering if it is worth putting 6 into illusions for Maim trait. Torment is pretty awesome (I think?) and being one of the two classes that can apply it, is it worth using?

Thanks!!

Ok, so I’ve got a couple of questions, and then a couple of general pointers.

First, where are you using this build? WvW roaming/zerging/tPvP? That matters enormously as to how you should be aiming your build.

Now, in general, confusing enchantments is NEVER worth getting unless you’re WvW zerging…and even then it’s questionable since the Great Confusion Nerf. Basically, confusion doesn’t do enough damage to warrant building for in any way, shape, or form, so it’s just not worth taking.

Additionally, you have no stunbreak in that build. That’s not ok unless you’re playing PvE, and even then it’s not advisable. You need some sort of stunbreak, and normally that will be either blink or decoy.

Next, you need to decide whether you want to be aimed towards clone-deaths or shatters. You’ve got rending shatter, but then you have both confusing combatants and debilitating dissipation. Shatters and clone-deaths don’t work well together, so you want to be choosing one or the other to focus on.

Now, in general condition shatter just isn’t very good. There’s a lot of issues with it, but they’re primarily centered around the fact that you end up with little to no cover conditions, allowing your opponents to counter your burst with just a single condition removal, on top of countering it through dodging/blocking the shatters (while clone-deaths are undodgeable and unblockable). For this reason, I’d strongly advise against going with Maim, even in its buffed form.

Lastly, if you want to list armor and such, you’ll need to change the build editor to WvW mode, which can be done with the buttons at the top right.

maha.7902:

Everything else I’ve always melee’d, but in melee groups so I’d have no idea what the berserker or ashym are like solo melee.

Attempting to melee the berserker if your party isn’t on-board is both an exercise in futility and likely to get you killed. The problem is that he jumps to the farthest target, so you’ll basically run to melee range and then just as you get there…he jumps to the other side of the arena. Rinse and repeat that for the rest of the fight, so you’re dodging fireballs and spending the whole time chasing the sucker back and forth. It’s pretty horrid.

messiah.1908:

do you think the new gm trait which make illusion distortion on creation would make them valuable in team fight as they wont instant death and i can fast shatter for aoe dmg?

Nope, it’s only phantasms, not illusions (as I understand).

Yeah, it’ll be workable.

The problem is that you’re gonna be seriously lacking defense when you run into thieves and such. You’ve got decent condition removal with the mantra, but you’ll die very quickly (yes, even with full rabid gear) when a glassy thief jumps on you. Additionally, shatters can be difficult to land against a mobile opponent, although the new ileap could make that slightly easier.

If you do actually land the shatters, it leads to a secondary problem, which is that shatters are applying only very low duration confusion…and torment. That’s it. So even if you land a full shatter combo, all of your damage can be removed by a single condition cleanse because you almost entirely lack access to cover conditions.

So basically, against opponents that really lack in condition cleanse and mobility, you’ll be able to chew them up. However, against a mobile opponent or one that has ample access to condition removals, your offense will be almost entirely impotent.

Catcrafter.3917:

@Kirito
Hi, thanks for response, The build is tanky but i put in some ruby trinkets and increased crit chance to about 30% and with 2k power it offers pretty good dps with swords, so I don’t think that my dmg output suffers that much?
I did try switching to more standard shatter build with pure precision gear. So far I didn’t notice drastic dps change. The only difference is that with my pure power/tank build i stay in melee always and offer moderate ove-time dps. While in squishy build I run in, burst do dmg and run away. Somehow it feels to me that in the end when I look my whole dmg during duration of the fight it turns out pretty much same. The only difference is personal preference.

Trouble here is you’re playing it wrong. The dungeon build should be a mix between phantasms and personal damage (through mantras). You don’t run in and burst, you go in and do sustained damage while avoiding dying through skillful dodging and use of blurred frenzy.

Catcrafter.3917:

The build is “bad” according to your personal opinion, so far it proved really good according to mine. I’ve been playing gw2 since release, was always attracted to unorthodox builds, I soloed Lupi with pure minionmancer Necro for example. So far in last 2 years I never brought teams down or had people that don’t want to play with me or ever being called selfish

You CAN do PvE in any build. The difference is that some builds are going to contribute nothing to parties, and others will be good. It’s not personal opinion that says your build is bad, it’s hard numbers, and numbers don’t lie.

Kirito.9207:

To me playing whatever you want is kinda selfish because you’ll be bringing down the whole group for your fun.

This is the key here. Running a bad build is being incredibly selfish. It’s saying ‘I don’t care about anyone else playing this game with me, I only want to play how I want.’ Are you allowed to have that opinion? Sure, but don’t expect people to want to play with you.