Guild Wars 2

Honestly, if you were able to hold off a PU condie mesmer and a P/D thief for over a minute without condition removals, they must have been extraordinarily bad.

At any rate, assuming equal skill levels, a good phantasm build will always trounce a shatter build. However, always assuming equal skill levels isn’t quite valid, so here are some tips:

Kill the first phantasms quickly with blurred frenzy so that they don’t hurt you, then go all out pressure on the mesmer. If the phant mesmer gets several phantasms set up without you killing them, you’ll lose rapidly. You need to put them on the defensive and control the fight so that you can kill phantasms as they’re spawned instead of running around trying to avoid them.

On choosing your fights
You’re correct to an extent that someone needs to attack you. That being said, it is possible to actually attack someone if they leave fields behind to proc torment as they run. In general though, I try to put myself in positions where I’m between them and something they want, so they have to go through me.

On finishing kills
Once you have someone engaged, killing them isn’t usually too difficult. If you’re playing properly, they should continually have cripple and multiple cover conditions on them, which significantly impairs any running attempts. More important, though, is knowing when and how to burst. On some classes like ele and guardian, their hp is so low that you can kill them incredibly rapidly from half health with just torment and some burning/confusion. Other classes, like engineers, have traits that proc at low hp…namely mines. Once the minefield is planted, you get a free torment proc every 10 seconds.

Knowing how to consistently apply torment is the key to killing people. If they try to run at low hp with torment, they die. You also can keep up with them for a limited time using blink to reapply the torment.

Ultimately, Mesmer is pretty slow, even with centaur runes. It doesn’t matter what build you’re playing, if a Nike warrior wants to peace out, you’re not going to stop them. Same thing if a thief does shadow step—> SR —> runs. There’s no real counter to that. You’ll just have to accept it.

Edit: Note that I don’t use focus in combat. It’s not necessary if you learn to burst properly.

I have several recommendation.

First, do not use signet of the ether. It is a bad skill even in a phantasm build for PvP, and abysmal in this build. You’re never going to activate it, so you’re only using it for healing. Ether feast heals more even if you have 3 clones out 100% of the time…which you won’t, so use ether feast instead.

Null field is not a good choice. All glamours are group utility skills. They have long cooldowns and strong aoe effects that make them good in group fights, but decidedly useless in small fights. Enemies will simply walk around the field, and you’re tied to a tiny area if you want to get that condition removal. Instead, use the pDisenchanter, which basically does what null field does but doesn’t tie it to an aoe, and it does it faster and stronger.

Veil is a waste of a utility slot. The 90 second cooldown makes it largely useless. It’s nice once every 90 seconds…but that’s not good, particularly because you’re sacrificing blink for it. Instead of veil, take blink to gain another stunbreaker and far more mobility.

With blink, you’ll need to trait long range manipulations (dueling I) instead of desperate decoy. Desperate decoy is a bad trait. Being a thief, I’m sure you know and hate the trait ‘last refuge’. Desperate decoy is the Mesmer version, but you don’t have to take it…so don’t.

Lastly, traveler runes are crap. They won’t allow you to actually catch someone that wants to run (i.e. Nike warrior/thief), so they’re just for moving around the map faster. Take a focus in your inventory and swap that in to drop temporal curtain every 20 seconds for swiftness out of combat. Now you ckittene actually useful runes like perplexity or undead.

Edit: Cann….Use…
I’m not trying to slip in a reference to your poop chute Anet, kitten …

Usually the iZerker will hit 3 or 4 times, but it can do less. Moving targets can cause this sometimes, if they’re moving into the whirl. It’s not super common, but it does happen.

Madisonlee.9641:

As said before, Thieves hard counter glass Mesmers (don’t they hard counter glass any class? lol) whether they be shatter or phantasm or whatever, even when playing Pyro’s phant dueling spec a good thief can easily win I find, because they can literally negate your damage by killing the phantasms the second they spawn even with full phantasm buffs, and phant is not viable in tpvp regardless.

Well, if you play it effectively, that build will kill thieves without too much difficulty, although the fight can be a bit risky. However, phantasm builds do have limited usefulness in tPvP. They’re good on Khylo for trebbing, but that’s all.

unlucky.9285:

funny.. a single build did do all this during the match I played and every time it turned bad for him he ran away retet and came back…

I’m thinking that perhaps you’re just very inexperienced in pvp and don’t fully understand how to fight people well.

Nevhie.6079:

Seems u are recomending me for a “Ganking Team”. “We only Gank people. We don’t give time to enemy to react” .

So uh….what are you doing exactly? Chivalrously giving your enemies time to react so they can fight back?

Kadj.6725:

ASP.8093:

(Or, playing thief, I could stomp other thieves pretty reliably by hitting Steal or Infiltrator’s Signet — both player-targeted ports so you don’t have to place the circle — at the very last moment of my stomp animation. There’s no skill like that for mesmers.)

Ignoring bugginess and counterability(not to mention getting shredded by bouncing projectiles)… is this entirely true, though? Couldn’t ILeap+Swap possibly used in a similar manner? (Not the best tactic, I grant; thieves have bouncing projectiles, mesmers will be in stealth when Swap is no longer available, and Eles can just get far enough away period, but any those three not playing well presents an oppourtunity.)

No, swap will interrupt channels.

First seed fights last seed, this is how all tournaments are structured. This allows the weaker teams to be weeded out immediately while keeping stronger teams separated so that their ultimate rank is more accurately portrayed.

If you had only weak teams fighting weak teams and strong teams fighting strong teams, you’d have strong teams being eliminated at the same time as weak teams. With strong teams vs weak teams, you have all the weak teams eliminated first, as it should be.

Dawdler.8521:

Zerging is fairly straightforward IMO.

If you want to support, go glamour or mantra. These are weak and very niche Mesmers that are boring or tedius to play.

If you want to flank and play like a Thief, go direct damage PU or shatter. These are generally very fun Mesmers to play and flexible in battle. The best part is that traveler runes synergize great with PU.

If you want to tag and provide a little wider range of damage, go AoE condition/torment specs. These Mesmers can be fun to play but unfortunetly suffer from rune and sigil limitations to truly live up to their full potential. Torment runes are even more expensive than travelers and you’re still gonna move like a sloth.

If you want to be absolutely useless, go phantasm. This Mesmer is a strong duelist… in sPvP. In WvW zerging those phantasms pop faster than kittening bubbles.

Maybe you missed what I said:

Fay.2357:

Something I think everyone is missing here:

OP mentioned zerging for dynamic events. This is not a WvW question

Something I think everyone is missing here:

OP mentioned zerging for dynamic events. This is not a WvW question

UnknownFreak.2805:

Fay.2357:

UnknownFreak.2805:

I am pretty sure diversion (daze) can interrupt downed skill, once I did two blinkstomp on ele+dazestomp on ranger. Mainly, downing ele, blinkstomping that dude, dazestomp the ranger that I down, and lastley, when blink is off CD, I do another blinkstomp

But I have to admit it’s pretty hard to get a successful interrupt with the daze skill o:

Well, you’re wrong. Go test it out instead of just providing anecdotes about when it seems to have worked. You’ll see that you can’t daze a downed person.

You cannot apply the “daze” effect, but the interrupt effect will still apply. so daze downed enemies does work, however they might be able to use the skill again, but if timed correctly it will be too late for them to use it again

Maybe you’ll see an interrupt floater, but you can’t interrupt downed skills.

Hmm…lots of people that are trying to put words into my mouth. Let me try and clarify my thoughts here in a concise manner.

Sustained dps has a role in roaming groups. However, due to the nature of damage and whatnot, this role is filled by a condition class…be it mesmer or otherwise.

Marksman is also a role…but not in small roaming groups. Your job is to stay mobile and fast. Enemy marksmen are killed through good awareness and mobility. You roam coherently and kill them quickly.

What you’re trying to do is fill a role that shouldn’t be filled in a small group, on a class that is bad at filling that role.

My Recommendation
As a group, learn to fight in a mobile fashion that coordinates the burst from multiple people to kill even more durable opponents instantly. If you need sustained dps, start bringing someone built for condition pressure. Stop trying to shoehorn mesmer into a role that it’s horrible at. Unlike most areas of the game, mesmer can actually be really strong in a small roaming group. You’re just playing it the absolutely worst way. Use the fantastic mobility, burst, and utility of mesmer to actually play a positive role in your group.

Edit: If you want ideas on how to do that, watch some of Joe’s shatter videos. He generally roams with a guardian for support and whatnot, and does that very well.

Ansau.7326:

If you think Nev does good damage, what is doing this mesmer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U3GmhUrKSY

As Fay said, he really does low damage. He cannot even solo burst squishy enemies, and that’s an easy job for a zerker shatter mesmer.

I personally prefer Vashury as my go-to gnarly burst vids:

UnknownFreak.2805:

I am pretty sure diversion (daze) can interrupt downed skill, once I did two blinkstomp on ele+dazestomp on ranger. Mainly, downing ele, blinkstomping that dude, dazestomp the ranger that I down, and lastley, when blink is off CD, I do another blinkstomp

But I have to admit it’s pretty hard to get a successful interrupt with the daze skill o:

Well, you’re wrong. Go test it out instead of just providing anecdotes about when it seems to have worked. You’ll see that you can’t daze a downed person.

Fuzzion.2504:

Reply 1

• Nev plays a very important role in our grp and is he is a highly respected within the community.

Note that I’m not insulting him, I’m simply pointing out how weak the play and build is.

Fuzzion.2504:

Reply2

• He does not do low damage. If anything his a beast in WvW.

I’d take your word for it if I hadn’t seen his video. However, I’ve seen his video. He does low damage, that’s not actually up for discussion.

Fuzzion.2504:

Reply 3

• In our 2v5 or 5v10 groups his role is just as important as his team mates. A good group has good cohesion. I say he does that well. Very well.

I’m curious as to what role this is that you speak of? Marksman? Support? Burst? We’ve been over how warriors/eles would do marksman better, and this build offers no support, aoe, or burst.

Fuzzion.2504:

Reply 4

• He helps tag because a good group must not just be cohesive but also assist to down the important targets as well.

This…isn’t really an argument? There’s nothing wrong with tagging, it’s only tagging that’s a problem.

Nevhie.6079:

@Fay
Well 1 thing for sure GS Mesmer can take care of themself better compared ur Recomended Marksman Role with 2x repos tool stealth and Blink. Most of ur Recomended Marksman offer better damage from GS MEs but more vulnerable vs Hard initiation or Focused fire. + and – from every class.

Well, that’s certainly true for staff ele and ranger, but you can toss a greatsword on that warrior and they’ll suddenly be more mobile than you, and more inherently resistant to damage with higher armor and heal sig.

Nevhie.6079:

Seems what u are trying to say is “Kill ur enemy before they react!” While my playstyle is “Prepare for every situation” and most of them we let them react. We lure them to react using our WA and Guard. So our Carries can pick them easier.

I’d advocate building burst (shatter) on the mesmer because that’s what it does well. You’re trying to shoehorn mesmer into a role at which it’s absolutely horrid.

Nevhie.6079:

Well for me the only nice AOE damage from Mesmer mechanic is either 4x Shatter Explode with IP or iZerker. I choose iZerker coz it’s safer and i Like GS. You can shatter every 10s with 30 Ip while i can iZerker every 12s with 40% CDR. Slightly weaker but Again. Personal taste. I Like GS.

iZerker doesn’t do damage even remotely close to what shatters can. It’s not even a valid comparison. Additionally, you’ll still have the use of GS and iZerker in a shatter build, you just get even more aoe.

Nevhie.6079:

-stuff about burst vs sustained-

In a team situation, burst is generally stronger than sustained damage. There are multiple reasons for this, so I’ll go through a couple.

Bursts from multiple people can be skillfully coordinated to kill someone before they can react to it. This will avoid a fight, or end one rapidly. Sustained dps from multiple people doesn’t have this capability.

Bursts can be skillfully aimed to avoid active and passive defenses. The protection that the guard shared to everyone is going to lower your sustained damage by a lot, but burst damage can be timed as the protection wears off, or just after (during with shatters) a boon strip.

Sustained dps is countered by healing. Since you don’t kill them quickly, they have time to make use of whatever healing mechanics they have. Burst dps doesn’t have this weakness. When used properly, it doesn’t let healing take place.

Now, that’s not to say that some type of sustained dps isn’t good in a fight. However, good sustained dps is….conditions. This is because they provide utility and damage that isn’t affected by the same defense as power damage, sorta like not wanting to build a full team of AD carries, because that’s all countered by thornmail.

Now, does it take more coordination to bring bursts together and make that work? Yeah, I suppose it does…but you should be striving for the best, and if you don’t want to do that, then chuck the mesmer and get something that does sustained dps better.

Nevhie.6079:

@ASP
T1 roaming need fast kills. If u can’t kill fast enough. Ur enemy will multiply. Most T1 roamers must balance between damage and Escape mechanism.

Sustained dps doesn’t produce fast kills. It leads to drawn out fights. You want coordinated burst to down a target instantly, and then clean up the rest.

Again, the way you’re playing simply isn’t optimal in any sense of the word. Mesmer does actually have strong roles it can play in a small roaming group…but you’re filling absolutely none of them.

Nevhie.6079:

Yes of course i;m staying in GS. I;m Marskman Role. I only go to melee when i feel no pressure/ Got ignored/ See opportunity for wombo combo/ After summoning iZerker with my Allies. Are u suggesting i;m making damage with Sword #1 Instead GS#1 Beam?

If you really wanted to do damage, you’d need to be specced for bursty shatter. That would actually do something. You’d be stripping and boons and offering heavy aoe damage spikes. See, I understand that you’re supposed to be in the ‘Marksman’ role, but mesmer does that incredibly poorly. You simply do bad damage. A staff ele would do far better, or even a rifle warrior or LB ranger.

Nevhie.6079:

-stuff about damage-

Right, so my point here is that your damage is incredibly low compared to other classes. You could be bringing an ele and do far more long range damage, or bring a warrior/guardian and do far more close range damage, or bring a thief for picking burst damage. I understand why your damage is low…and it doesn’t matter at all. Your role is to provide long range damage, and you’re simply not effective at it.

Nevhie.6079:

Since when i said Support Role?? I never said i;m Support Role? I;m Hitter Role/ ADC. Strip Boons? The only support value i put in that Build is only mass invis and Arcane Thivery. Are u degrading a Mes that every Mes in Team Fight must become Support Role? Seems u need to understand more about Burst vs DPS philosophy.

I mentioned support because your damage is so bad. The only reason you’d have to actually bring someone that’s doing that little damage is if they offered some sort of strong support, but you don’t.

Nevhie.6079:

But i;m sorry for 5man GS Mesmer still have value to offer

Ok, lets hear this one…

Nevhie.6079:

long range sniping

Ele is far better at that. They’ll deal more damage, and it’ll be aoe too! If you’re not worried about aoe, you could always bring a LB ranger, who will do more damage from farther away than you can, or a rifle warrior that will do both higher normal damage and brings the ultimate 1-shot snipe.

Nevhie.6079:

Continous DPS

So…damage? See my previous paragraph.

Nevhie.6079:

AOE damage

…wat. Mesmer has horrible aoe damage unless you’re doing shatters. Your build is not a shatter build, so your aoe damage is absolutely abysmal, close to non-existent. Pretty much everyone does better aoe damage.

Nevhie.6079:

mass invis.

Yes, you bring mass invis. That’s…1 5 second stealth ever 90 seconds. It’s good, don’t get me wrong…but it’s not worth hauling along a dead weight just for it.

Nevhie.6079:

Also some nerfed AOE Immob if use Sword.

We all know how this one actually goes.

So….

You do poor damage long range damage, poor close range damage, have little to no burst potential, have little to no aoe potential, and bring 1 unique support ability on a long cooldown. Remind me why I’d ever want to bring someone of that description in a group?

Jackums.3496:

Fay.2357:

Jackums.3496:

blackbolt.8160:

the way i see it, deceptive is better for the clone death of condi PU. this one uses direct damage

Don’t let me discourage you, play what you want, but to be forward there is no Mesmer spec without DE that’s going to be effective in PvP modes against competent players.

So that’s just blatantly false. Phantasm builds work just fine without DE. In fact, taking DE in a phantasm build is generally counterproductive due to destruction of phantasms.

Not only are phantasm builds simply mediocre right now in PvP modes, but no competent player of equal skill is going to lose to one without Deceptive Evasion. You’ll have absolutely no defense outside of a stealth skill or two. Even power PU phantasm specs without DE aren’t going to be efficient in killing a player with a good build.

Please spec (any build you want) without DE, then go into WvW and duel any other profession with a decent build and good player behind it, and record your win.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Overpowered-PvP-Phantasm-Build/page/7#post4162337

Have fun, I called it overpowered for a reason.

Downed enemies have a type of stability. They can not be interrupted with anything other than launch skills.

Curunen.8729:

but I’m pretty sure all the rest of the #2 can be, even thief/mes ports – unless I have been grossly misled and the total number of thieves and mesmers that have simply not bothered to use #2 while I’m stomping is much much higher than I thought it to be.

Mes port is a guaranteed stomp stopper. If used at the proper time, it leaves you in stealth for the landing of the stomp, stopping it. It’s not the teleport that does that.

Thief port is nearly impossible to stomp if they’re good. The teleport is instant, so they can time it just before you land, and you simply can’t react fast enough.

So, I just watched the video. Honestly, you seem to be doing an awful lot of not much at all.

Your damage is very low. You’re staying in greatsword about 99% of the time doing not much damage. Your phantasms don’t seem to hit particularly hard, and none of your other damage is that high either. You use iLeap maybe once every other fight successfully, and your blurred frenzy seems to do about 3k damage if you hit all 8 hits of it.

You offer close to nothing in meaningful support. Your support begins and ends with mass invisibility. You don’t use glamours, you don’t strip boons, you don’t heal, you don’t boonshare, you don’t really offer any of the support that mesmer can.

Honestly, the only thing you do is follow along and tag enemies, while I guess being another red name on the other guys’ screens. Viable? Hardly. I’d take a warrior/guardian/ele/necro/thief over you.

maha.7902:

There’s also no point swapping out mantra of resolve for null field when mantra is instant cast and has a shorter cooldown, I don’t even know the rationale behind you suggesting that.

Pretty sure they suggested swapping out null field for mantra of resolve.

As far as GS in open world goes, mobs have so little hp that you can generally kill groups of them before they reach you just with iZerker, mirror blade, and a shatter. This makes GS pretty smooth and effective for open world, because it means you don’t really have to ever engage, just sorta instakill from 1200 range and keep moving.

As I said once before, these are a lot of beautiful, well thought-out ideas. Unfortunately, they have as much chance of ever being integrated into this game ever, in any expansion or otherwise, as I do of joining the dev team.

One Note Chord.5031:

Also, I don’t trust them to fix anything any more. I honestly don’t want them to touch iwarden; they’ve already screwed it up enough.

At this point if iWarden literally did nothing 100% of the time on summon, it wouldn’t be a massive nerf. Rock bottom is pretty close for that skill, so we don’t have much to lose on it.

Zero No Louise.3258:

I tried that. I even threw in a feedback and time warp for good measure. Didn’t work. Didn’t get a single champ bag.

Then…you must be doing it wrong? I’m not sure what to tell you. You barely need to sneeze on world bosses to tag them.

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

I’ve been wanting to try PU for a while now. If I ask you pyro what makes PU appealing to take it over CI? I know its obvious its boons but CI is also great and makes the gameplay rewarding due to the timing of interrupts. So would you recommend PU for me then?

They’re very different traits. CI is an offensive interrupt trait, while PU is a self-buffing defense trait. CI is inherently unreliable due to the nature of interrupts themselves being unreliable. Good luck landing interrupts on that thief or engie, and have fun stripping through stability on that asuran warrior just to get to try and figure out what’s a jump, what’s a dodge, and what’s an earth shaker. Interrupts are an inherently unreliable mechanic, and so I stay away from anything that relies on them.

PU always works. It always provides strong defense and doesn’t rely on other mechanics to make it work.

what if I’m really good at interrupting, would PU still be a better choice? I mean I’ve never tried PU that’s why Im curious.

So if we assume that you’re not worried about all the inherent problems with interrupts, we just come to a case of different, not necessarily better.

Do you want to survive a 1v4? CI isn’t going to make that happen, but PU might. Do you want to load up a nasty lockdown for your thief to jump on someone? PU isn’t going to help, but CI just might. They’re different.

Cheesy is all in your head. Why let whining kids dictate what you feel comfortable playing?

As for the actual effectiveness of it, you have to know how to play it, as I said. It’s a different style and takes different strategies than a normal shatter build. Most people try to play it the same way and it doesn’t work, so they assume it doesn’t work at all.

PU isn’t really viable at the very top level, because a highly organized and well practiced team can rotate quickly to counter the strategies that you use, due to your lack of map-wide mobility. However, this isn’t easy to do, which is why it only stops working at the very top level (like if you’re fighting the top 5 teams in the game).

You play PU condie as a disruptive roamer, aiming to create a numbers advantage for your team. Your usual range is roaming between far and mid. You support mid with boon strip (pDisenchanter) and aoe support conditions (cripple/weakness/vuln). Your primary objective though, is to get a decap on far and then control it and any other nearby objectives.

You want to move to far rapidly with blink, avoiding a skirmish until it’s decapped. In a PU condition build played well, you should be able to duel anyone 1v1 without excessive use of stealth, holding the point easily. The objective here is to either 1. Maintain a fight on the point in a 1v1 while holding the point
Or
2. Force the other team to send more people.

If they send more people, now you start using PU. It doesn’t matter if you lose the point when you’re maintaining a 2/3v1, because your team now has a numbers advantage at mid and should secure it for a 2cap. The longer you can survive and waste multiple people’s time, the greater an advantage you’ll get. Eventually you pull off using stealth and blink, and reset to mid to begin it again.

While doing this, you keep any eye on any nearby secondary objectives, and aim to control those as well.

This can be countered by incredibly smooth rotations. The enemy team needs to rotate a bunker and a dps to their home to cap it while moving a roamer to decap your home. This necessarily means abandoning mid, which can be potentially incredibly damaging depending on the situation and map (foefire).

So, countering is possible, and the top few teams can and will do that, but for everyone else, it works.

I’m curious as to why you went 25 points into domination? Surely you could find a better use for 5 points than to take a trait that does pretty much nothing?

Aside from the obvious issues of including torment shatter in a build that I’ve gone over countless times already, the main problem here is the glamours.

Glamours are really group utility spells. When you try and shoehorn them into more of a dueling/ roaming build like this, it generally doesn’t work very well. The cooldowns are very long (especially since you don’t trait it), and the effects are fairly small (since a single person can just walk out of/around them).

You seem to mostly be taking them just to maximize your chaos armor uptime…but that leads to even more problems. Now you’re dropping them in a cycle that ignores the other stuff they do. If you drop null field for chaos armor, the next time an engie vomits on you, you’re going to be very sad. Feedback will have the same effect, and of course using them for blind also potential negates both chaos armor generation and normal utility.

Overall, glamours simply have cooldowns that are too long and effects that are too avoidable to use them in anything less than a ~10 person skirmish. I’d recommend trying to work in a bit of a different direction.

chuckles

If you’d actually read the thread, you’d have seen where I talked about how I highly recommend not doing PU power for several reasons. I find PU power builds rather poor.

Of course, while PU power builds aren’t great, that doesn’t make your statement that shatter builds are your best bet to handle thieves any less amusingly false. PU condition or well played non-PU phantasm builds are the only effective ways to handle thieves, although phantasm builds are significantly riskier (see my overpowered pvp phantasm build for ideas).

At any rate, you can feel free to pm me if I ever bother logging in, and I’ll kill your thieves in a PU condition build. If I feel bored one day, I might even make a comparison video to show you how poor Mesmer autoattacks are…but I’ll probably just keep leveling my Abyss Walker in dragon nest.

So you want a build that’s fun to play, and you’re not unduly worried about how effective it is?

I’d actually recommend trying out a torment shatter build. I’ve said this many times, but I’ll say it again: builds made with that trait are rather lacking in effectiveness because the trait itself is horridly lacking. However, I enjoy the play style and wish that it was more effective, because it’s truly quite fun to play.

I’ve done a couple different variations, though I generally stick with 20/20/0/0/30. I think my favorite one is scepter/pistol+sword/torch, with rending shatter for cover conditions, and swapping between shattered concentration and cleansing conflagration depending on the fight.

Note: do not use this in pve. Ever.

@Ayano:

I’d love to see your definition of ‘huge’ damage from those autoattacks. My definition of ‘standard’ damage would be damage that a thief or a warrior could output with autoattacks. No Mesmer weapon can even hope to compare to those two, so I define Mesmer autoattack damage as ‘horribly low’.

I sorta fail to understand your fixation with SR. It’s a strong skill that allows the thief to heal up with SA and set up a difficult to avoid burst. However, it’s not the end of a fight unless they choose to use it to run away. It’s very possible to kill a thief between uses of SR.

Phantasms don’t get fooled by jumping and kiting. Swordsmen leap. Zerkers do a fairly long range whirl. Duelists are ranged attacks. Sure, maybe the iMage and iWarlock attacks can be avoided by walking, and the iWarden is countered by the virtue of the devs, but the strong damage phantasms will hit a kiting thief easily. Can a thief just run away? Yeah, they can, but no build can stop a thief that simply wants to run.

Being on mobile, I didn’t watch the video, but I’m not sure how you can claim that phantasms don’t die instantly against multiple opponents if they’re even halfway decent.

Shatter can match up to d/d and d/p thieves fairly well, because the builds are very similar. They have high burst and low defense options. This means it’s very possible to outburst a thief playing those. Unfortunately, nobody plays those builds anymore. All you see is s/d, s/p, and p/d.

P/d is just a pain, and I think everyone knows why. Shatter builds have no chance of pinning it down, and the generally bad condition removal of a shatter build will cause it to melt. PU condie builds should have strong condition removal and be able to fight p/d effectively, though actually killing one relies on them making a mistake.

S/d and s/p thieves are the primary factor as to why shatter Mesmer isn’t viable in tPvP currently, and all of those reasons apply in wvw as well.

S/d and s/p thieves do high cleaving damage while evading. This means that they simultaneously remove your offensive capability (illusions) while at the same time avoiding counter-attacks. They also have extremely high mobility with almost unlimited access to shadow-steps, making kiting them more or less impossible. They have an instant 1500 range daze on a 20s cd with steal, and many trait it to apply a long duration poison as well, and this means they can easily interrupt important heals/phantasm casts.

Shatter builds have very strong active defense, but very limited amounts of it. Once you’ve used up distortion, you have pretty much no recourse. Blurred frenzy can dodge a few hits, but a good thief will simply walk around blurred frenzy and then burst you. The only way for a shatter Mesmer to beat an s/x thief is to outburst them, but this is nearly impossible due to the cleaving evades I mentioned.

PU condie builds are a very different situation. Condition gear (rabid/dire) gives a lot of toughness, meaning you have far higher innate defense against thieves. You also apply a lot of condition pressure through clone explosions. Clone explosions are unique in that they are undodgeable and unblockable. This means that the cleaving strikes that destroyed all of a shatter mesmer’s offense actually create the condition mesmer’s offense for them. Since the explosions can’t be dodged, the evade portion of the cleaves has no effect. These conditions provide both damage and additional defense. Weakness and cripple make it harder for the thief to do damage, and bleed puts pressure on them.

Another significant factor is the torment block. This is an extremely hard-hitting skill that is easy to proc again due to the thief cleave. While you have to time it to land between evades, this is quite easy to do. Compare this to shatters, which require setup time that the thief destroys as they cleave. Against some thieves with low condition removal, one single round of cleave for condition load and a torment block will almost or completely kill them.

Additionally, you have PU. The higher stealth duration allows you to get a thief off your back for long enough to recover, and the aegis and protection provide a large amount of additional defense that supplements everything else. PU condition builds are really able to counter any builds in the game in a 1v1 situation. Thieves are mentioned a lot simply because of the unique contrast between PU condition and shatter.

While I don’t really play gw2 anymore, I’d be happy to come and trash whatever thief you feel like finding to pit against me. I do post a lot on the forums and I’m always willing to back up my talk, that’s why people still listen.

The people in your guild sound like a bunch of dopes. It sounds like they’ve heard that Mesmer isn’t good at a high level in organized tpvp, but they don’t really know why or how to use that knowledge. Unfortunately, their lack of understanding doesn’t change the facts of the situation.

Hotjoin is filled with people looking to test new builds that they’re unfamiliar with, people who just want to hop onto the winning team for quick points, and people that have no idea how to play. For this reason, the performance of a build in hotjoin means absolutely nothing. I could run 0/0/0/0/0 and still kill people just because they’re not good.

Shatter Mesmer doesn’t work in tPvP because it is hard-countered by thieves. I know you say that you feel confident you can handle anything, but you’re simply mistaken. Any competent s/d or s/p thief can and will dismantle you rapidly. Other very difficult matchups are condition engineers, since you’re extremely limited in the condition removal you can take.

Shatter Mesmer requires that your team be half of your build. Your team has to strip thieves for you and your team has to clear conditions for you. While it’s technically possible to make this work, the vast majority of teams make the decision that it’s simply easier to not bother, and bring something else that has condition removal and doesn’t melt to thieves.

Now, another option is to run a PU condition build. This actually is viable up until you get to the very highest levels of tPvP, which it doesn’t sound like you’re at. However, most teams don’t know how to effectively utilize this type of build, and even less people know how to effectively play it in a tPvP environment. It has the option of viability though, because it can tear apart all thieves.

So to answer your direct questions. No, I’ve never felt not wanted in a PvP team because I’m a Mesmer, and that’s mainly because I don’t have the time or patience to join PvP teams. I’ll solo queue or do solo team queue if I do tPvP.

Have teammates felt I’m ineffective sometimes? Probably. Am I blamed for losses? Usually not, because I usually win. If we lose, I blame myself for the loss because it’s always possible to play better and force your team to win regardless of the circumstances (see my guide to solo queue for a more complete explanation of that).

The short answer to your final question is: thieves. Thieves are why Mesmer is not viable in PvP. There are other reasons, but that’s the primary factor.

Ayano.5986:

2. Does a PU build need condition clear?

Yes! a PU build needs condi clear badly, I would suggest not traiting any points into Chaos when facing a condition class in WvW. Instead, trait deep into inspiration to boost your health pool, regeneration, and gain condition clear on heal. I would also suggest picking up cleansing conflagration, phantasmal disenchanter, and even null field. Do not waste a utility slot on arcane thievery, when comparing it to null field, the
cool down is 5 seconds longer and it only cures 3 conditions. Null Field gives you a combo field, rips all boons from enemies, and cures all conditions.

PU is 30 points into chaos. Perhaps you meant domination? Regardless, there are multiple ways to deal with conditions. Inspiration traits are one way, but cleansing conflagration combined with strong utility cleanses is also sufficient.

Ayano.5986:

3. Is Torch offhand the best in a Phantasm WvW build?

This one is highly debatable, what I see is people having a issue with torch not having a high damage phantasm attached. You have to remember that running a phantasm build, especially vs stealth classes, your phantasm attacks are not that reliable. A lot of damage will come from your attacks like sword 1 and 2 and GS 1. Torch gives you that extra stealth that allows you to reposition yourself, blast finisher, condi clear, blind, and gain vital CD time will stealthed.

Torch is a strong weapon in any PU build because of the stealth. That said, it’s absolutely a sacrifice because the phantasm is just so incredibly bad. You’re in no way going to be doing a lot of damage with greatsword and sword; greatsword doesn’t do high damage and sword requires you to be autoattacking in melee range. If you’re running a phantasm build, your offense is absolutely phantasms. Phantasms dying quickly vs multiple opponents is an inherent weakness and one of the reasons I don’t run phantasm builds while roaming.

Ayano.5986:

4. How do you handle a thief?

Higher skilled thieves will still be able to put enough pressure on you and burst you down in PU. I have seen on here that shatter builds are thief food, but I would suggest they are the best possible way to defeat thieves. Now here me out, when speccing shatter it will be a burst battle to see who can win. You have to anticipate there attacks with Sword 2 and shatters. You have a higher chance because you will have the burst to take them down or die trying.

If you beat a thief with a shatter build, it means you drastically outplayed the thief. Similarly, while it’s possible for a thief to burst down a PU build, it means you got drastically outplayed by the thief. Assuming equal skill, thieves will tear apart shatter builds, and PU builds will tear apart thieves.

Ayano.5986:

If you are running a Pu power build your phantasm damage is very unreliable when thieves keeps stealthing and unstealthing. I have experimented recently with a 00653 build that has had decent success but everything depends upon you pushing them out of SR to win. If they run D/P you have to cleanse the blind before trying to push them out and get lucky they aren’t dodging at the time. What to do when your facing a skilled S/D thief? Run.

Phantasms are actually extremely effective against rapidly stealthing thieves. They don’t need to retarget after a thief gets revealed, they’ll simply attack instantly. I’ve killed a lot of thieves instantly by getting up 3 sword phantasms that jumped them as they backstabbed me from stealth.

Pushing thieves out of SR isn’t necessary to win in any way, though it does help. Blinds from d/p are most easily cleansed with either persistent aoe like chaos storm or just by an autoattack on the thief. D/p builds are definitely within reason for a good fight against a shatter build though. S/d and s/p thieves are not. They require PU or phantasm builds to handle effectively.

StickerHappy.8052:

I’ve been wanting to try PU for a while now. If I ask you pyro what makes PU appealing to take it over CI? I know its obvious its boons but CI is also great and makes the gameplay rewarding due to the timing of interrupts. So would you recommend PU for me then?

They’re very different traits. CI is an offensive interrupt trait, while PU is a self-buffing defense trait. CI is inherently unreliable due to the nature of interrupts themselves being unreliable. Good luck landing interrupts on that thief or engie, and have fun stripping through stability on that asuran warrior just to get to try and figure out what’s a jump, what’s a dodge, and what’s an earth shaker. Interrupts are an inherently unreliable mechanic, and so I stay away from anything that relies on them.

PU always works. It always provides strong defense and doesn’t rely on other mechanics to make it work.

blackbolt.8160:

@inhearth and @Fay
Would not a greatsword do enough damage? Blink and stealth skills can keep the opponent at range, and if they get close, there is blurred frenzy then torch stealth.

Mesmer has poor damage. This is part of the class design, as our damage is low but we’re able to do damage through other mechanics, such as phantasms or shatters.

None of our weapons do high damage, especially greatsword. Mirror blade is good, but that’s about it. Trying to nuke someone down just by camping greatsword really won’t work. Anyone immobile enough to be unable to gap close to you won’t die, and anyone glassy enough to die will have enough gap closers to get on top of you. You need a primary source of damage that isn’t weapon attacks.

Jackums.3496:

blackbolt.8160:

the way i see it, deceptive is better for the clone death of condi PU. this one uses direct damage

Don’t let me discourage you, play what you want, but to be forward there is no Mesmer spec without DE that’s going to be effective in PvP modes against competent players.

So that’s just blatantly false. Phantasm builds work just fine without DE. In fact, taking DE in a phantasm build is generally counterproductive due to destruction of phantasms.

MSFone.3026:

Do you find duration increase on torment meaningful as a buff to scepter block?

I’ll just weigh in on this point. The torment duration increase can potentially cause the torment block to be devastatingly long.

That being said, it’ll only remain on someone that long if they have literally no condition removal, so generally you’ll get far more mileage out of boosting condition damage instead of duration.

Eleivo.2761:

I know Mesmers aren’t doing well in s/tPvP currently, but how are we currently in WvW for roaming solo or with a small group? I’ve never really tried WvW before, but would like to find something to do with my Mesmer while waiting for us to become more viable in PvP.

Roaming solo or with a small group is pretty much the only thing mesmer remains good at in the game.

Eleivo.2761:

I prefer shatter, though I know PU is commonly run. Are both viable?

They both are viable, but you’ll get squished pretty easily with shatter if you run into a couple thieves or a roaming group. If you’re roaming as part of a small group, shatter works very well.

Eleivo.2761:

Can we clear camps easily? Are we still thief food? If my friend is running a thief, would a Mesmer pair well with it for roaming?

Pretty much all builds clear camps just fine. Shatter builds are thief food, while thieves are food for PU builds. Thieves and mesmers of any build pair very well.

Coxy.5269:

LaronX.8079:

Sadly Mesmer are still in a very good spot in PvP

This is slightly debatable. Slllliiiiiggghttllyy.

I have no idea what you’re talking about. There is 1 mesmer that pvps at a high level. 1 is larger than 0, so mesmer must be fine.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Swish.2463:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Okay but imagine the situation where one Mesmer is moving through a zerg, and getting random aoe. This produces a Xv1 situation without the actual targeting of Xv1. Added is the fact that we can share our boons. Guardians are good but they can’t give perma protection/retal/regen to five people around them.

idk if a single tiny aoe boon share every 36 seconds could be considered Perma but.. i mean if you know a way to get that much prot and retal and regen when the game seems to cap at 25 seconds.. please.. let me know.

Its quite simple really. None of those boons cap the number of stacks. You could hypothetical stack to around 2 mins in duration. 2 minutes-36 seconds=perma protection, swiftness, and/or regeneration.

You’re not correct. Both protection and regeneration cap at around 5-6 stacks.

@inhearth

Your perception of how condition PU builds optimally play is deeply flawed, but I’ll ignore that for a moment.

Shatter and PU do not mix well. Generally shatter requires one of a couple general setups: IP in illusions or interrupts in chaos. Taking PU means that you can do neither of these things. This results in your shatters being quite weak and unimpactful. Also, delayed shatters due to pathing issues can result in some awkward unstealthing moments.

A phantasm build synergizes somewhat better with a PU build as it doesn’t lose quite as much strength as a shatter build does. You can still pick up a good number of the more important phantasm traits and get your phantasms hitting reasonably hard. That being said, the torch phantasm is horrid and you will be losing both phantasm strength and some phantasm survivability.

Those reasons are why I never run PU power. Condition traits line up beautifully with the standard 20/20/30 of PU, and so you really sacrifice nothing of import in a PU condition build. Aggressive play is still very possible, and even optimal, and it overall has more defense and survivability than a comparable power build.

The mechanics of confusing images are just fine. It’s a 5 target piercing beam which is quite helpful. The long slow channel actually makes it difficult to dodge all of the hits on it, as well as baiting dodges very effectively. This is useful in condition builds for landing torment, lockdown/phantasm builds for landing stuns, and shatter builds for landing shatters and iLeap.

Where the skill falls short is really the confusion itself, because confusion just isn’t very good, and Mesmer doesn’t actually have enough good ways to apply it to let a confusion build function at all. Perhaps if it were replaced with a slurry of cripple+torment or something like that it would have a bit more kick to it.

Anton.1769:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQJARWlknpRtlpxYNcrNSqxY6UW5FSOQAl8juB-TVSEABQcEAqb/B4eAAAcIAQU9HtUCukyP20F4wFAgUAMJMC-w
and yes, don’t waste utility and trait slots for condie clear. If you do it – you play something wrong with PU mesmer

Yeah, you could not be more wrong.

Just taking PU doesn’t give you a free pass on condition removal. Running any build without condition removal will let any condition class melt you at will. Some builds accept this risk and do it anyway for the sake of burst or team utility, but this is not one of those cases.

All PU builds require extra condition removal. I find that an adequate amount is both cleansing conflagration and taking pDisenchanter. If you’re not getting smeared across the ground by condition classes in that build, then you’re not fighting condition classes.

To illustrate this point, you have 16k hp in that build. In my WvW build, 1 single block from my scepter will do 13k damage if allowed to tick for the full duration. This means you die.

maha.7902:

DONT BUG MOSSMAN

I haven’t seen this done successfully in close to a year, is it still a thing?

Dawdler.8521:

Fay.2357:

Dawdler.8521:

As ironic as it sounds, all offensive power builds basicly rely on confusion to win.

…?

Exactly.

What you said doesn’t sound ironic, it sounds either absolutely false or absolutely misleading.

Dawdler.8521:

As ironic as it sounds, all offensive power builds basicly rely on confusion to win.

…?

Xyonon.3987:

Anyone thought about an upcoming dungeon with those mortem creatures? There are some of them who are extremly powerful if not interrupted. I repeat it again. Interrupted :o

So you’d take a thief, because headshot is a far better interrupt than anything mesmer has if you’re talking single target….and/or just stack/dps them down like everything else in the game.

NinjaEd.3946:

Fay.2357:

NinjaEd.3946:

That’s what I’m saying, just keep the ICD per unique target. If 5 people want to start wailing on a target with chaos armor and they manage to live through it, they deserve a little boon treat. If it’s just 1 target with quick attacks having them give you 15+ seconds of multiple boons it seems a little crazy, especially since chaos armor has the ability to not be visible at times (bug, but still).

Don’t take bugs into consideration for balance recommendations.

If you’re fighting one person and they decide to unload with pistol whip or whirling wrath or some other multi-hit attack when you clearly have chaos armor, they deserve to be punished for that negligence in the form of high condition load and boons on you. If you’re able to activate chaos armor during an attack like that, you should be rewarded for skillful play.

Currently, you are neither rewarded for skillful play nor are enemies punished for unskillful play. This is not a good thing in a game that is supposedly skill-based, but it is more friendly to bad and new players.

Unload having 8 hits, whirling wrath having 14 (7 + 7 projectiles), take dagger aa on necro or thief, etc and allow them to work with the current boon/condition durations applied by chaos armor with 0 icd, yeah it would be broken. If the ICD is to be removed, the durations would need a look over because of how quickly you would get max stacks of those boons (7 sources/stacks I believe). You would easily get 30+ seconds of protection and 20+ seconds of regen/swiftness which if left alone is not something to laugh at. 7 hits is not a lot, with the fact that chaos armor effect appears slightly before the animation bubbles up, or left over AoE. You can’t just halt all attacks before 7 hits from something slip in.

Either relook at the durations and remove the ICD or simply allow a separate ICD for each unique enemy.

I fail to understand how a shield that procs on hit being an effective counter to multi-hit attacks is a bad thing. It won’t stop things like backstab and eviscerate, but it’ll defend effectively against pistol whip and whirling wrath sort of things. All attacks in this game are dodge-cancelable, so it’s not like they couldn’t skillfully stop that attack to avoid punishment…

Counterplay is good. Skillful play being rewarded is good. Poor play being punished is good. Removing the icd produces this situation.

Just as a point of clarification, are you trying to use this build in PvE, PvP, and WvW?

If the answer to that question is ‘yes’, I highly advise that you change that answer. It’s not viable to do that if you want to be even remotely effective.

nearlight.3064:

So I’ve started solo queuing on mesmer and while I like the burst shatter specs I hate being play things for thieves and medi guards so I’m tempted to go back to the PU condition spec which is the easiest mesmer build to play well.

Will I be a detriment to my team if I run this spec or a more power based PU spec?

Take a look at my guide to solo queue found here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-A-Mesmer-Guide-to-Solo-Queue/first#post4060868

Short answer though is that PU conditions is extremely viable at all levels of solo queue, provided that you play it in an appropriate fashion, which my guide can help with.