Guild Wars 2

Competitive is not a black or white issue. Honestly, I think that by “competitive” many people mean “exploitable.” As evidence, I cite the many stacked teams of necro/dh/ele.

Competition needs to be fun or people will find other things to do. If there were no “safety nets” people would get stomped too hard, see no hope and leave.

S1 was a better compromise between competition and fun than s2. This is not a virtual reality MMA tournament, or at least I thought it wasn’t.

The fact of the matter is that there are not enough players interested in being cannon fodder for a system like s2 to be successful. Two other factors will also cause S2 to fail;

High level players alting to get easy matches.

The season is too short. Evan Lesh talked about a bell curve, I don’t see it happening.

The problem you folks appear to be missing is this: If tiers could be lost earlier it would stick a lot of players in Amber/Emerald. This would have two very bad effects;

It would cause higher tier players to troll back through the lower ranks on alt accounts. There wouldn’t be enough upper division players to support matches. Besides, the general trend in the game is to exploit. Why play hard matches in Diamond when you can alt and laugh while stomping in Amber?

It would cause a lot of players to quit altogether.

First, dueling isn’t really the point. Second, Mesmer has very little access to condition clear and is fairly squishy.

As a Memser, when I face a Mesmer I go for offense. I know that once I get them down below a threshold, it’s only a matter of time.

@Snowywonders

1. I claim to be a medium skilled player.
2. I’m running a current meta build.
3. I’m in my 4rth year in the game.
4. No, I don’t play a warrior.

So, I disagree with your post 100%

The idea that I “belong” in t3 Sapphire is debatable.

What disturbs me is the reactionary mindset. People “belong” in lower tiers and aren’t good enough to advance? I’m seeing quite a few posters maintain this in the face of any argument or evidence.

Ultimately GW2 is voluntary and for fun. This was never meant to be no-holds-barred MMA team fighting… or at least I thought it wasn’t.

What has kept me in Tyria for years has been the story, the idea that I was doing something chivalrous, even if only in the virtual world.

I’d like to see the kind of grand gesture I learned racing sailboats. Is it possible I intruded on the other boat’s right – of – way at the mark? Then I do my penalty circle unbidden, to remove any question of trying to cheat or take advantage.

That kind of mentality breeds sport and sportsmanship. I wish it would be a lot more visible in pvp.

@Fay as much as I respect you as a Mesmer, you’re dead wrong on the grind. I got buried under 30+ loss streaks in the first days of the tournaments. I’ve spent nearly full time work hours trying to advance and am currently t3 of Sapphire. In T2, 2 weeks into the tournament, I faced an esl team, and in another match an esl team member.

The system has resulted in poor matches throughout the divsions and too few advancing. This means the high level players go back through the ranks on alts, punishing the rest of us again.

Thus the logic of speeding “good” players through the lower ranks fast is a failure.

Prior to this tournament, my alt account was bouncing around a 50% win ratio. now that is closer to 10% or less. I don’t have the heart to calculate it.

I’ve busted my kitten, tried to get better and this is my reward? repeated stomps? Yeah… that’s going to to make me admire the upper ranks, giving them prestige.. It’s also very encouraging to me to keep coming back, particularly since I have little to no hope of winning the wings.

The division locks are one of the few things holding the system together. With this matchmaking, many would be stopped in amber. Then they’d give and leave.

The current system is not “skill based” so arguments based on that are not going to work, a priori.

It’s very clear that players are not landing in the right ranks. The system rewards playing particular classes and social networking to get good teams. It does not reward individual player skill.

In addition, the system has made it so hard to advance that the top players can’t get matches. So, they alt back through the ranks punishing lower ranking players again. This erases the whole notion of speeding high level players through the ranks. In doing so, it invalidates a lot of the thinking behind the Season 2 system.

Removing division locks would intensify the problem.

Nor is there much if any “prestige” in being high ranked at this point.

The vast majority of players aren’t here for Esports. They are here to have a good time. Ultra competition belongs in tournaments. It does not belong in mainstream PvP with a largely casual audience.

The backpack is meant as a carrot to attract casual players to PvP. So, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to expose those newcomers to hardcore competition. They were attracted by a reward they were promised they could win.

@Yasi

The league needs to be grindable. If it is not, too many players will simply give up and leave. See the level of anger now? Imagine what it would be like if players were held in Amber for weeks while the “better” players moved through.

Then they’d be held for weeks more while the legendaries played through on alts, because it’s easier than waiting for matches. Then, they’d most likely give up and go away.

As I said in a previous post, there is a place for ultimate competition. That place is in tournaments. It is not in Main PvP. HOTM PvP is or should be for fun.

I’ve seen this happen. Also I’ve been offered gold to desert so the loss wouldn’t cost pips. That’s what the system has lead to this season. That and the culture of exploiting to the max that has been fostered in the game.

Well, that supports what I am saying. The current system definitely is not producing groups of similar skilled players.

If pips could be dropped, it would simply make the early divisions worse. That in turn would turn off players and hurt PvP.

@Evan Lesh

Legendary/Diamond divisions are NOT prestigious. The reason they are not is that they represent an elite. They do not represent skills.

As evidence of this, I present the large number of complaints about poor quality play and players in Diamond.

A true “skill based” ladder would require two things:

A random Solo Queue. Teams are clearly carrying players above there skill level. Random matchmaking would be a fair test of individual player skill over time.

Actually balanced classes. I read somewhere that ANET deliberately overpowers one class or another in order to keep the “meta” moving. That doesn’t work in pvp. It advantages that class which leads to profession stacking.

As it stands, the PvP ladder is not skill based and it never will be. It will remain a test of social networking to get good teams and playing whatever the current most powerful build off metabattle is.

This season should be seen as a wakeup call. People come to pvp to enjoy and to earn titles and trinkets. Deny those titles and trinkets and there’s no reason for people to come play. There’s certainly no enjoyment in being repeatedly stomped.

Increasing division drops will make the situation worse, not better. Forcing uneven matches will continue to drive people away.

There is a place for elite highly skilled players. That place is in tournaments. Main line PvP is not the place to attempt to force ultra competition.

I just went back through The Pale Tree’s Vision on my alt account. The minor changes and additional explanation from Trahearne are great!

Well done ANET, the storytelling is noticeably improved.

Removing the locks would make the situation that much worse for a majority of players. The matchmaking is already crushing… removing the locked in pips would have the effect of discouraging probably a majority of the players.

I once told the Sail Commodore of our local club; It’s all well and good that one sailor wins every time. Certainly he is skilled. However, what’s the use of being the top in a class of 1? That sailor went on to win every time that season. The class is no longer sailed at the club, for lack of interest.

This is the natural result of the system many of you “legendary” players asked for. It was easy to anticipate. If you insist on being ultra “competitive” this will be one of the downsides.

There’s really no way to have it both ways.

So, legendary players make alt accounts and stomp there way back through the ranks, intensifying the problem.

@lopez.7369

Perhaps, but you’re missing something important. Competition is all well and good but this is not a black and white issue.

People in this thread seem to think that competition is an absolute. Things are competitive or they aren’t. Pure competition can and will alienate a large section of the player base. When that happens, competition will collapse.

The solution is to have some competition and not total competition. People willing to work deserve to be rewarded. They deserve it as much or more than people who find it easy to do well and streak to the top.

Evan Lesh and others have claimed that a grind based system reduces “prestige.” In other words Legendary rank is no good unless it is restricted to a very few.

The truth of it is that I don’t look up to Legendary players. I have no hope of getting there, so they form an elite in my eyes. When I see a player with the top two levels of wings, I think “elitist, pfah.” If I could get there through work it would be different.

I will often stop and whisper a player displaying a GWAMM to congratulate them. I respect that title. It means perhaps years of work, but I can get there. ( and I’m struggling toward it )

The backpack is an honor, it would be just as much an honor reflecting a long hard grind as it is reflecting smurfing,teaming and playing the most OP current builds.

The grind system of season 1 was competitive enough, without being over the top.

Actually, I’d attribute it to a cash grab mentality. When I started in GW1/GW2 it was about the story. Rich content is what drew me in. I felt HoT cheapened that a lot.

Esports isn’t going to happen in GW2. The reason is that things aren’t balanced. More importantly.. some level of care and craftsmanship has been lost. For me, that’s rather sad.

I strongly suspect that the reason this is being asked is the following:

Population is too low to support casual and maximum competition. So, the idea is to throw everyone into the competition pot to minimize queue times.

The problem is that doing so alienates casuals and lowers the population still further. I’m not sure that any reward is worth 30+ loss streaks.

I’m still banging my head at it and losing 80+ % of my matches because I’m too stubborn to back off.. but I don’t think many feel that way.

@ Evan Lesh

First, Division != ( is not equal to for non scripters ) to skill level and here’s why:

Teams distort skill level.

Profession stacking distorts skill level.

Unbalanced classes distort skill level.

High level players alting in order to get matches distort skill level.

Inherently and deliberately unfair matchmaking distorts skill level.

The current system has very little to do with skill level. It has to do with social skills and networking to get good teams. It also has to do with playing one of 4 OP professions.

As evidence I point to the large number of complaints about poor quality play in ruby and diamond. If in fact those divisions reflected playing skillfully, the bad play wouldn’t be happening there.

If it were really your goal to test player skills, everyone should solo queue with anti syncing measures.

Having said that; The main reward that the vast majority are going for is the wings. Since that is pretty much out of reach for many people, population falls.

Inherently and deliberately unfair matches are not competitive. Nor are they likely to promote goodwill among the majority of players.

A privileged minority like them, but they are the only ones.

The reward I want is quality gameplay. I want to feel that I have a reasonable chance every match, regardless of the class I am playing.

This is why players are angry. The playing field doesn’t even resemble level. Nor will it. There isn’t enough time in the season for the even match stage to emerge.

-edit-

Two major issues;

Teams

High level players trolling back through the divisions because they can’t get matches.

I ask and expect a level playing field. It makes no sense to win, then criticize the loser, when you where set to win and given a strong advantage going in.

No, I don’t consider that the players who through talent or teaming flew threw the ranks to be any more deserving than I am.

I find all this talk of “earning” the wings amusing. How does it “earn” anything to be on a team and fed matches you are pre-set to win?

I’ve fought my way through 40+ loss streaks this season and been online almost daily. I’ve worked as hard as anyone and put up with being trampled over by the teams. If anyone has “earned” rewards this season I have.

I find no prestige in Legendary rank and I have very little regard for those players. They didn’t “earn” much of anything from my perspective. They were pre -set to succeed. This wasn’t a level playing field.

DH already has quite a bit of sustain. That’s not all the issue either. As Mesmer I don’t dare get close for the trap bombs. It takes me a minute or more to wear down a DH from a distance. By that time there team arrives and I run away or die.

More sustain would definitely be OP. DH is already pretty strong on holding home or mid. I also combines very well with Necro or Ele. This season has been all about stacking and DH has been a big element of those stacks.

The matches remain volatile because they were designed to be. Yes, in theory they would eventually balance out. I don’t think that a season is long enough for that to happen.

Meanwhile you also drive away the players who are being stomped.

The current matchmaking system is based on a sound theory. However, that theory will not work in this instance. There are not enough players, motivation or time for the balancing out to happen.

In Reply to Evan Lesh

A couple of the more obvious things that are bad about premades reaching the top of the ladder;

A pre-made is a substancial advantage over a PuG. This is in addition to the matchmaking probably setting the pre-made to win when forming the teams. A double advantage. I don’t see where pre – made teams really have much cause to take pride in winning a game they are pre-set to win.

Pre-mades do not test individual skills. There have been many complaints this season about poor quality gameplay in Diamond. This is because players are carried up by teams when they’d never get there on there own.

This carrying kittens the notion of players stopping at there natural level. It will prevent the matches from balancing out.

-edit-

More generally; I don’t think that the vast majority are really in PvP for ultra competition. Like myself, the motivation is mostly the rewards. Sure, I enjoy competing at a neighborhood softball game level. I have no interest in playing in the major leagues.

I think that the reality is that there aren’t enough players to support a pure competition ladder without heavy rewards to back it.

Teams are an element for Pro League. They are a detriment when the goal is to compete at a fun level.

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

The majority of matches favor one side and most of those who have risen to high rank have done so by being on a team rather than by individual skill. This doesn’t result in prestige, it results in a caste of haves and a caste of have-nots.

If it is your intention to test skills; The best method would be to require everyone to solo queue and implement anti sync coding.

In reality, showing diamond or legendary through dogged grinding is as worthy as getting those accolades through teaming and an easy win streak ride.

The lack of prestige in the Diamond/Legendary titles is caused by the culture of exploitation. Many pvp regulars realize that those titles were gotten through smurfing in S1 and through prof stacking and pre-mades in s2. Why should I admire that? That’s why those titles are not prestigious.

@ Evan Lesh

I’d say you are mistaken. The divisions are less prestigious. The long losing streaks and repeated stomps create bitterness.

In addition, teaming is the only practical means to get the upper divisions. I strongly suspect that was intended. So, in reality, players skills are not being tested so much as social skills and the ability to choose stackable classes and builds. Witness the number of complaints about the quality of play in Diamond/legendary.

Yes, rewards absolutely need to be grindable. The system as it stands may work in that it quickly separates players into a bell curve. Unfortunately it also alienates players and in doing so reduces the population. I contend that you’ll run out of players willing to be stomped over before the 50% win distribution has a chance to develop.

The only reason I still bother to go to PvP this season is to try to grind for the wings. It looks like even that might be denied to me, because of the time limits.

I admit that I’m surprised by the tone of your post. You seem to imply that the season and matchmaking are going well.

I’m not impressed. You used OP builds and a high mmr winstreak.

Season 2 is an example of what happens when theory takes precedence over practice. I believe that the thinking probably went like this;

If you create very uneven matches it will quickly boost the better players out of range. If that actually happened, matches would rapidly become 50/50. This would be because only similar skilled players would be left in any given bracket.

I could go on in detail about why that won’t work in practice. Instead, I’ll say this; Making a system that is deliberately unfair is not logical. Such a course almost cannot fail to create resentment and alienate players.

There is no skill in winning matches that the game has expressly set up for you to win. This season’s division placement will have to do with shrewd choice of metabattle build and pre-made team. It will have little or nothing to do with an individual player’s skill level.

In my opinion, the current matchmaking system cannot claim to be “skill based.” A system that tested the skills of individual players would almost by definition have to be entirely SOLO QUEUE.

This season is awful. Here’s the final of my most recent match. Yes, it was full premade vs full PuG.

I was top score on Blue.

Thinking about it, I’d choose the song from the Mirror Sequence in the rock opera Tommy for Mesmer

Or Sweet Little Lies, Fleetwood Mac

^^^^ This.

I’m guessing that the thinking was that at some point only players of similar mmr would be left in any given bracket.

If that were the case, then the unfair matches would go away naturally. The system would only have similar skilled people to draw from.

The thinking misses some pretty glaring flaws though. Legendary players running alts to get shorter queues in lower divisions is an obvious one. The fact there are dynamic teams is another. A relatively low skilled player may be carried by a team to a high division by a team. If they then switch to solo or to a team less able to carry them, the system is kittened.

The unfair match system would work “if” everyone were required to solo queue and anti sync’ing measures were in place. It works perfectly well for example in Drag Racing.

I like Skyhammer as it stands. It creates hard challenging matches.

The biggest issue I’ve seen is that because of the extreme AOE of dh/reaper/scrapper, they find it very easy to grab and hold the Skyhammer throughout a match.

Actually I wish the wings were on a reward track. It would relieve a lot of angst.

As to being matched with players of similar skill level; The only way to do that would be to have SOLO QUEUE ONLY. It’s abundantly clear that teams are carrying people well above where they would naturally fall when solo.

I’m just amazed that this is being discussed at all. People can’t dodge/block/LOS a skill that can be interrupted and has a full second cast time?

The way I read this is that people are complaining about a skill that’s been in the mix since launch. It’s been nerfed already. In moa you aren’t helpless.

Yes it’s a counter to super condi bomb necros that can otherwise kill me almost instantly.. or the dh that pulls me to instant trap death. So learn to play, folks.

Mesmer has taken more than enough hits from the nerf bat.

I can’t really find any sympathy in my heart. This is the direct result of the system that many legend players said they wanted.

The divisions are locked because the stomping and exploitation would otherwise keep many players in Amber. Those players very likely wouldn’t come back.

It’s all well and good to have a psuedo objectivist attitude ( ala’ Ayn Rand.) But it’s not going to work in actual practice.

@Stickerhappy.8052

/curtsey

(Without a trace of sarcasm) I am honored by your gracious offer, Sir. Full well do I know that you are among the most skilled Mesmers.

I was not sufficiently clear; I am currently Sapphire T2. That measure of success, I attribute to sheer persistence. Prior to this tournament, I was successful in nigh 50% of my matches. I haven’t the heart to calculate it now.. but it is mayhap, 20% after the flogging I’ve received in the tournament.

@geekilo.8512

I understand that by allowing division drops, you believe players will fall into there natural skill brackets. This would create better matches for all.

That logic, however, is flawed in my view. Because of the extreme matchmaking, players are grouping and using stacks of specific classes.

By doing so, they are carried above there natural skill bracket. This would be even more true if divisions were permitted to drop. I believe that it was at least partly anet’s intent to force players to group in this way.

Because players are carried above natural skill, by builds and by groups, the match quality is likely to be poor throughout all divisions. That is born out by what I’ve read in the forums.

In my opinion there are two realistic solutions; The first would be to require everyone to solo queue and implement anti syncing measures. The second would be to make the wings a reward track. By doing so, anet would offer an alternative path for players, like myself, who don’t wish to compete at pro level.

I enjoy competing, my heart beats faster as I jump out of the gate and run for mid. There needs to be a reasonable chance that I can win though.

I don’t agree. Not losing pips is the only reason I’m not still stuck in t1 Amber. The reality is that losing divisions would alienate many players. Fewer players means worse matches. In turn that drives player exodus from pvp. What is being proposed will result in a death spiral.

The current system does not reward skilled play. It heavily favors one side in nearly every match. Winning “gimmie” matches doesn’t mean much in my book.

Allow loss of pips and divisions throughout, and you will destroy the tournament in my opinion. A few would be pleased by the change, but they might well find they are the only ones left.

I have solo’d all but 2 matches ( I lost both team matches ) and am currently Sapphire T2. It has been an awful slog. Most days I log off depressed and wondering why I’m doing this.

Since I am the “they” you refer to, I’ll reply to that.

No, I am by no means a top player. However, in my fourth year in the game, I have gained some skills.

Be that as it may, I’m breaking my kitten, putting in full time work hours trying to advance. I deserve to be rewarded for it.

My other point still stands, the excessive punishment is driving players away. I’m an avowed masochist and I’m approaching my limits. If divisions could be lost, I sincerely believe that the tournament would collapse for lack of interest.

A place exists for the elite. It is the regular tournaments and the esl league. A place also needs to exist for those players, like myself, who want to compete but are not equipped to play at pro level.

The problem with pvp now is the excessive punishment. I’ve seen 30 loss streaks. If you increase the punishment by dropping divisions, it becomes worse.

I don’t think there would be enough players left to support the next season. This system doesn’t reward skill. It favors one group of players over another.

Truthfully, a grind based system is the better option. It will preserve the player base and along the way people will get better.

Coming from an ele, that’s interesting. The fact of the matter is that an ele will out heal all the condi I can throw at them and laugh. Moa is the one skill I have that’s effective against a tempest and even then, I will almost never be able to down them within the duration of moa.

The situation is similar against a scrapper or reaper. This really is a learn to play issue. It’s a full second cast time.

That’s an eternity in pvp. During that time you block, set up a dodge or hit me to interrupt. The fact that you died to a moa is not cause to call it OP nor to nerf it.

Moa is blockable, dodgeable and has a ridiculously long cast that can be interrupted. This is a learn to play issue.

The idea of starting players in higher tiers has some serious problems.

The higher tier starters will complain that they have to work harder than others for wins. This will immediately cause mmr tanking.

Many of the lower tier starters will feel slighted or even cheated.

That’s why I suggested separating the starters by time rather than by tier.

As to the idea of kitten mid; I will often say “let’s take sides.” the stacks of necro,dh and ele make the mid fight a lost cause in many matches. I don’t mean go hold far. I mean take far and hope the zerg breaks up.

@baylock.1703

Yes, that would be logical, but it isn’t the truth. The system teams similar mmr, then picks a very different mmr team and matches the two.

The claim was that this would quickly clear the more skilled players to the higher tiers. My issues are that;

It didn’t work and it is pretty much pre ordaining the outcome of matches.

How is that competitive or fair?

ANET expressly created the system to make uneven matches. This is the direct result. I don’t understand why they didn’t predict the outcome.. Or was this the desired outcome for some reason?

The most basic scripter ( like myself ) should have seen this coming a mile off.

Yes solo queue would actually show the skill of individual players. ANET would need to create code to stop people from queue’ing together to exploit…

Sadly this won’t happen. It doesn’t serve the goal of creating Esports. I really wish that would all go away because it’s spoiling the game badly.

Not a big enough spread. The overlap would still produce a lot of early stomps. Not a bad concept though.

Well said, thank you. Here’s hoping anet reads posts.

I think the matchmaking designed to cause one team to win is a clear failure. It was intended to allow the “good” players to move ahead quickly, I understand the concept. Still, the notion of creating deliberately unfair matches defies logic.

I’m not sure how this could fail to create bitterness and drive away players.

So, here’s my suggestion drawn from experience in yacht racing. At the club, boats are organized into fleets of roughly the same performance. The fastest boats go to the line first. Then the next fastest and on down the line.

I suggest that the highest mmr people start 3-5 days early and end 3-5 days early next season. Then the next “fleet” and so on. Like yacht racing, this would prevent the smaller boats from being crushed at the start and alleviate traffic problems.