Guild Wars 2

You just opposed the current round of buffs to Mesmer. You’re claiming Mesmer will be OP, ante facto. That’s in effect a call for a nerf.

I was among those who waited for more than a year for any kind of help for Mesmer.

For you to oppose the Mesmer buffs in advance is counter productive. The Six Gods know that ANET loves to nerf Mesmer. They don’t need any encouragement.

-edit- OK I’m overreacting. My favorite build will no longer exist because it annoyed a dev. Not because it was unbalanced.. because it annoyed a dev. Seriously though, please don’t put out predictions of Mesmer being OP. We have more than enough people hating us already for doing what they don’t understand.

@Jasher

I’ve seen your posts several times. You seem to make a habit of calling for nerfs to Mesmer and it’s really annoying.

It is not “cool” to demand underpowered builds. Nor does it show “skill.” Some of us would like to go into a match with a good chance of winning.

@ Superform

Do what everyone else does, friend them and don’t queue if they are in Heart of the Mists. Wait til they are on a PvP map.

I have to agree though, something went bad in the matchmaking. I lost rank points this a.m. with three badly matched games in a row. I’d be fighting 3 and my “team” wouldn’t cap anything. Also went against the same party team twice with pugs.

All four teammates go after the Treb in Kyhlo after wiping in mid. I see this more often than you’d believe.

Any time the team zergs mid for an extended period. You just know the enemy has home and far capped and is laughing while the points add up.

I’m annoyed that an entire build is being removed because one dev didn’t like and ( apparently ) lost to it.

Clone Death enables shatter in a team fight and I don’t want to see it go.

I agree that the basic problem is that the clone death items proc on clone replacement.

Using scepter, autoattacking hoping for deaths is mindless. Just as much as hammering the 1 or (for rangers ) 2 buttons. There are much more effective ways to play clone death though.

I’m actually pretty excited about HoT and eager to see the story continue in my third year playing.

Still, my experience in Dry Top and The Silverwastes has been pretty heavily zerg focused.
For me the game is about heroism and individual achievement. Zerging doesn’t fit that at all. It also pretty much sidelines my two favorite professions; Mesmer and Thief.

If I wanted to be a zerg zombie, I’d play WvW. Should it turn out that HoT is mainly about massive zergs, I will have to consider not buying it.

Devs, will there be anything in HoT for those of us who prefer to follow Snow Leopard?

By “passive” I mean that it requires no active play from the user to destroy clones.

It is incorrect to say that players can’t help killing clones. They do it because, with most Mesmers, there’s no penalty for it and it totally nerfs the Mesmer’s damage.

The Mesmer class is about deception and punishment. Clone death conditions fit that exactly. They FORCE the enemy to think when fighting a Mesmer, not just mindlessly cleave.

All Six Gods forbid that a warrior or guardian actually finds me a threat.. that would be awful.

Clone death spam is not what I play, nor is it what I’m suggesting. I also challenge that notion that that play style has no skill.

PvP has pervasive AOE fields. These largely prevent an effective shatter by killing the clones before they explode.

So, clone death should be available. Otherwise Mesmer is often locked out of team fights for any form of shatter. This is perhaps one of the reasons Mesmer have difficulty finding a niche in PvP.

I’m aware that it’s fashionable at the moment to parrot the idea that clone death play is “unhelathy.” I’m not suggesting it as a main play style, I’m saying that I run a shatter mesmer with clone death traited and I count on the clone death traits to guarantee some damage.

Since we’re talking about “passive” and “no skill” gameplay. Let’s consider the fact that AOE fields auto nerf shatter with no input on the part of the defending player. It’s ignorant to point the finger at clone death as “no skill” when in fact it’s simply a counter to all those “no skill” aoe’s. I’m looking at you, Warrior, Guardian, Elementalist, Ranger and Necromancer.

@Kolly,

OK true enough Thief doesn’t have a strong AOE counter for shatters. They do howver have frequent telelports in the form of [Infiltrator’s Arrow] and [HeartSeeker].

I’d also point out that thieves can dagger cleave clones very rapidly. And in limited circumstances have a [Steal] based spin that is effectively a clone killer aoe.

Grouch was complaining about a Mesmer dodging and doing damage on clone deaths. That wasn’t a PU issue. That is the only stated reason for destroying the build. A dev was annoyed, so delete the build. That could easily be countered by not having clone death effects triggered by dodge.

I admit, I don’t play PU mesmer. I’m traited to be a condi shatter with on-death damage.

Still, Mesmer stealth is less than that of thief and it doesn’t shield from AOE. Also a thief is far more mobile, with heartseeker and infiltrator’s arrow.

Standing clones do pretty pathetic damage as turrets. A PU Mesmer gives up most of her damage for stealth. She can’t attack without losing stealth. Players could shut down the vast majority of that build’s damage by simply not attacking and waiting for her stealth to timeout.

I think that the paranoia about PU belongs in the same category as the paranoia about thieves. Lack of skills and understanding is the problem.

I think that removing the trigger for dodge replacing a clone would be appropriate. That is actually the complaint “grouch” had.

@StickerHappy

You’re right, very tough clones would be nasty. So distortion might be the answer.

Better yet, leave the condi clone death or make it baseline. It has never been shown to be OP. The only given reason for removing it is that it annoyed a dev. That simply is not a good reason.

I mean that spamming AOE destroys the ability to shatter without requiring any skill or additional action on the part of the defending player.

One of the more egregious examples of this is the turret engi. Without clone death traited, shatter has a very low chance of even damaging the defender. Barrage does the same for ranger. Fields for elementalist. Ground based signs for guardians. Fire fields for warrior. Dagger storm for thief or simply spamming dagger cleave. Wells and marks and minions do the passive defense for necros.

All of these hard counter shatter. This nerfs Mesmer damage unreasonably since clones do practically no damage in non shatter mode.

+1 Runeblade, I agree.

Personally I dislike this idea. Still, the ability to heal from clone death would be pretty nice.

I think that one thing that can be distilled from several related threads of this: Clones die too easily. This fact hampers shatter mesmers.

Two potential paths are available to remedy the issue;

Make the clones tougher or temporarily invulnerable ( as by giving them distortion. This was suggested for phantasms by the devs in the last livestream ).

Let the situation stand as it is, enemies harm themselves by mindlessly destroying clones.

Grouch’s comment that the play style is “unhealthy” has generated a lot of hate. Still, the build has NEVER been shown to be OP.

It’s being removed simply because it annoyed a dev.

Your dislike of a particular build is not a reason to remove it from the game. If it were, rangers and engineers would have long ago vanished from the game in my view.

I claim that being able to trait Condi Clone Death makes me able to shatter with some chance of doing damage. AOE is so pervasive that players can PASSIVELY prevent me from shattering.

I’d love my clones to be invulnerable during shatter especially if they actually chased the target better.

The whining about “op” would shake the rafters though.

I’d go with that alternative, though the whining would be epic. Think about it, a decoy that I want you to destroy is exactly the personality of a Mesmer.

“Whatever you do, please don’t throw me in that there briar patch.”

misquoting Brer Rabbit

I play a clone death mesmer. In essense I play as a Condi Shatter Mesmer.

During actual games though, clones are too weak to survive aoe fields. Anyone who plays pvp will realize that AOE is pervasive. Clone death means that other classes can’t just use a passive AOE counter to destroy my damage.

So, Mesmer that I am, I resort to trickery. I obviously shatter into a Guardian. They pull one of their AOEs to destroy the incoming clones. Surprise!

A thief jumps me thinking that I won’t be able to shatter on them, because there Dagger Storm will wipe the clones and phantasms. Surprise!

An elementalist ranges me, knowing that the lava fount and fire fields will destroy any clones I attempt to shatter with. Surprise!

A minion master Necro closes me, thinking that the minions will trash my targeting and eliminate clones. Surprise!

The kind of play that “grouch” complained about, simply dodging to destroy clones could be fixed with one simple change. If there are already 3 clones/phantasms out, dodging doesn’t produce another one.

Well played, Clone Death isn’t a passive mode at all. It enables shatter play in an environment where clones are otherwise only slightly better than worthless.

I play clone death and it’s not passive at all.

example:

I shatter, knowing full well that the guard I’m targeting will pull an aoe to destroy the incoming clones.

example 2:

I’m up against an elementalist in fire attunement. I switch to scepter and pound them from afar. Fire field comes up. I switch to staff and run in. Chaos Storm, Phant, dodge and phase retreat out, gaining chaos armor and watching the ele kill my two clones and phant.

Example 3:

I get jumped by a thief. Chaos storm, phase retreat,phant, decoy. Run back to my clones. Thief pulls dagger storm to destroy the clones so I won’t shatter on them and bleeds themselves down in the process.

I could go on. The point is that the thing “grouch” complained about, simply dodging to kill clones, is the crudest form of clone death play.

In reality, clone death is a very good add to shatter if played well.

I love the idea of a baseline clone death penalty.. but that is far too much consideration to ask of anet

You could also block all the “good” players and thereby pump up your win record. This is not a good idea at all.

As it stands, I’ve learned that people friend those they don’t want to play against. Then they wait until that person is in a match before que ing up.

So, the manipulation is already well established.

Not a bad idea. I won’t queue unranked because of courtyard. A separate queue makes a lot of sense.

100% agreement. I’ve lost more than 60 places on the leaderboard to turret engi teams. I’ve also been sent to three straight losses against the same ( apparent ) premade.

@Faux

That’s pure sophism and bravado. This thread has made it clear that the players not wanting turret nerf are the players who are turret engis.

The win record of turret engis speaks for itself. If the devs don’t believe that, I challenge them to go up against that 5 turret engi team I met the other night. They easily won 500-less than 100 if memory serves.

Exploits and extreme niche stuff, like having two turret engis on a point trading off supply crate ruins the game.

By the Six, I hope not. Where’s the strategy in a mini version of WvW zerg fighting?

Viable reason to nerf turrets? How about their win record atm? It’s abundantly clear that engineers are trampling matches. It would be dishonest to say otherwise.

My objection is that the build I currently use, Condi shatter with clone death traited is being eliminated.

One of the devs commented on live stream that the build annoyed him. Now it’s going to be removed.

A dev losing to a build is not a reason to destroy that build. As to it being passive, it’s not for anyone who’s played it.. It’s more or less like setting traps.

What’s an “unhealthy” play style? This game is supposed to be for me to have fun. The build hasn’t been shown to be OP, it shouldn’t be banned out of play.

Turret engineer is trampling all over the leaderboards right now. Yet, engineers are about to get a gift basket of huge buffs. Ranger super range/damage hasn’t been addressed. Yet one mesmer off-build is being completely eliminated from play.. not just nerfed, eliminated.

That’s my primary objection. It’s just wrong on principle. I’ll find another build of course.. but that doesn’t make it right.

@StickerHappy you are only the second player in 2+ years to recognize the Sindarin name. Thanks, you made my evening. Yes, she is correct.

It’s not reasonable to ban my play style simply because it annoys a dev. As to the shatter mechanic being the theme of Mesmer…. It’s the fault of the devs that the clones are unreasonably weak and target poorly.

Shatter is not played as much as it could be in PvP for a simple reason: It’s too difficult and unreliable to work well.

That’s too non specific to answer, sorry. Please rephrase and elaborate.

It seemed very clear watching the last livestream that ANET is trying to impose specific playstyles and dispose of others. In a couple of cases, playstyles that are personally disliked by the devs are being forcibly removed.

I heard the phrases “we think” and “we feel” several times before I lost interest.

Playstyles should not be modded or removed because they annoy a dev. One does not generate build diversity by banning builds.

A leader suggests a path that the followers are already inclined to follow. Often she or he has engineered it so that they are in agreement already.

Strong arm tactics are seldom productive in the short or long run.

If the devs are determined to force specific playstyles.. then I request that they publish guides so that I know what is favored and don’t have to guess.

Come to think of it, that would be a persuasive and productive way to influence the game.

@ Dondagora. Switching to condi-clone death has been my first taste of success as a Mesmer. I came in around the time of the huge confusion debuff. and the year of more of being badly underpowered that followed.

Do you honestly think anet will allow an effective confusion build? History says a resounding “NO.”

Sure, shatter is pretty neat, against other Mesmers in the OMFG private arena. Having spent a good year trying to play it in regular pvp and WvW though.. I don’t think it’s viable for an average player as it stands now.

So yes, I’m upset to see condi clone death go. Passive? hardly! I bust my butt kiting and trying to place clones. Unskilled? I downed Chaos Archangel…

Some time ago, one of the devs mentioned losing to a condi – clone death mez and was upset about it. ( that’s what prompted me to try it and possibly why it’s “hated” ) .. I honestly think this is the result of that duel.

The devs mentioned giving distortion to phantasms. I’m suggesting it be extended to clones as well.

Mesmer is one of the squishiest classes. Asking us to survive the aoe bombs and run right in close to high CC /AOE classes like War, Guard, Ranger, Ele and Necro to hit our burst doesn’t make sense, even in a Mesmer world.

I intentionally left a match for the first time the other day.. and regretted it deeply. Still we were up against 2 turret engis with a group on my side that I knew to be so-so at best.

I felt like a terrible sport for bailing and I think it shouldn’t be done. Still, there’s no punishment for it and I don’t like being some engi team’s whipping girl either.

That’s not what I’m asking. I’m asking for distortion for a brief time on cast to allow the clones to survive an AOE field and make it to the target.

Also they should actually track the target until they explode. Now, they appear to pick a spot and cease tracking when they get within a certain range.

@ Dewolfe Shatter has a very high theoretical damage If: you preshatter to generate vulnerability and all those clones hit and you then secondary shatter and all those clones hit and crit. You have a better chance of winning money on the lottery.

The reality is that because of the excess aoe in most matches the majority of clones are destroyed before they reach the target. Of those that aren’t destroyed, most will run right by the target and detonate out of range.

ANET has only itself to blame for clone death play… since the vast majority of clones are killed before they are useful. Condi clone death builds are the logical and appropriate response.

I think ANET was unwise to reveal HoT so far out and that this livestream was a bid to maintain enthusiasm.

The Engineer looks to me to be getting a thermonuclear buff and stealing a unique Mesmer asset ( Moa ).

Mesmer is losing a playstyle ( condi clone death ) that was a substitute for the difficult to use shatter mechanic. With the amount of AOE in most games and the poor targeting of clones, most shatters are at least partial misses. The clones die prematurely or simply fail to detonate anywhere near the target.

I lost interest after that. Truthfully though, my impression is that ANET has some misperceptions. The devs stated that people believe ANET dislikes Engineer. In truth, Engineer is currently OP or nearly so and looking for a huge buff. I’ve seen 5 engi teams dominate a match with very little effort. Now they will have a mobile mortar? and an extra elite that will stop all powers and heal for an enemy team? ( aoe moa ) Insanity in my view.

Necromancers don’t have a single reflect skill to counter ranger.. and don’t even get me started on the overbuffed ranger.

This presentation needed more thought before it went live.

I don’t agree. Shatters do pathetic damage a lot of the time.

@wolfey. That’s what’s known as a “strawman” argument and such are considered invalid in any logic class. Not only that, it avoids my point.

I argued that AOE Moa is OP. I also argued that Moa is traditionally a Mesmer only skill. I was angry when I started seeing other classes generate Chaos Armor.

It feels like ANET is stripping Mesmer of it’s priveleges and it’s character. I see Mesmer becoming a very niche class with few players if the trend continues as it is.

Shatter has two basic problems:

The clones don’t aim well. A ranger pet or an engi missile are guided they go straight to the target. Clones, by contrast, pick a spot and detonate there as the target runs by in a different direction.

Most clones are destroyed and never actually reach the target.

The vast majority of shatters are at least partial misses, which is why non shatter methods have become so popular. Who cares about a high theoretical burst on a stationary target golem?

Sure… I can choose to run right next to a hammer warrior to make my clones hit.. and most likely be killed and laughed at for being stupid.

So here’s the solution I propose:

Give distortion to phantasms AND clones upon cast. Make them actually track the target and finally give them swiftness during a shatter since many if not most classes have a speed or tele escape. Alternatively give them a significantly larger burst radius.

Engineer has received huge buffs ( which boggles my mind considering that I’m seeing 5 engi teams dominating pvp )

If passive clone death traits are removed.. it leaves no real options for a Mesmer. Sure a vocal minority with a lot of experience will feel smugly that THEY can play their favorite builds just fine… but I see this as a horrendous nerf for the majority of Mesmer players.

In addition to the aiming issues, ANET has chosen to nerf clone production, making [Deceptive Evasion] a GM trait.

We ought to get a compensation that makes shatter viable, since that’s what anet is clearly pushing for.. along with the push to eliminate berserker thieves.

I have three accounts, two GW2 and 1 GW. Of those, I can only access 1. I have linked my accounts, reset the password repeatedly with no success.

I’ve just spent 40 odd minutes trying to get through the automated ticket submit system.

I SUBMITTED A TICKET ON THIS ISSUE WEEKS AGO AND ANET HAS NOT EVEN BOTHERED TO REPLY.

I would like all my accounts to be moved to this email and given working passwords.

That’s my point, shatter works very poorly in it’s present state. This is why condi clone death has come to the fore. Sure.. a few highly skilled gamers think shatter is fine and are a vocal minority. The truth is, shatter sux in a real game. The clones are too delicate and the aim is a “maybe” at best.

@Wolfie Keeping the integrity and spirit of a class is certainly a valid argument. The Devs themselves used it repeatedly in the livestream,

+1 I agree. I ran into a 5 stacked turret engi team last night. I’m thinking I may just start leaving matches when I see that kind of setup.

I’m not a huge fan of condi clone death either. I’ve been playing it as condi shatter. The truth of it is though… it’s one of the few builds that actually works well without having years of experience in Mesmer.

@ ANET .. for bonus points: “the pledge” is the patter before a magic trick, “the prestige” is the actual trick if I recall accurately.

I’m totally thinking this is a massive nerf in disguise. It’s also killing clone death.

I’m almost too angry to think straight at the moment. Anet is buffing engi and hugely nerfing Mesmer. Clone death builds are being killed entirely.

Deceptive evasion as a GM trait. This makes no sense at all.

I hate that ANET keeps taking away what makes classes special. Everyone and their sister has stealth now.. Which devalues thief.

Now they hand MOA to engis…taking away our unique elite.