Guild Wars 2

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

In case anyone who don’t know, mes nerf is actually just as harsh as any other build. Illusionary reversion requires 3 illusions for it to work now, so if you actually got the patient to destroy even one phantasm or dodge shield summon you greatly decrease its pressure.

Not only that, one of the “buffs” to Mesmer doesn’t work.

It’s not nerf fetish. There’s a long history of things being made good, then nerfed into the ground. Some classes have been trash tier, literally, for years after some strong combination was broken.

So no, it’s not fetish, it’s worry. Given the time between patches, any serious nerf can put a class out of the game for months.

I’ll be waiting to buy until I see the first couple of waves of nerfs. Then, I can decide.

I have successfully played PU Mesmer in Bronze. Running a non HoT build means accepting that you will be playing against the odds. You will get hammered flat. The difference is that stark.

On the other hand, one never knows what will change. For example, Mesmer received a buff this past patch that applies might to a phantasm. The problem is that that buffs don’t affect clones or phantasms. Therefore, the buff is designed not to work.

OriOri.8724:

Curunen.8729:

It’s the beginning of nerfs to prepare everyone to shift to Mirage and buy the next expansion.

I’m expecting Chrono to get some gutting sadly. :/

I’d agree with you if every class was nerfed this patch. But they weren’t. Overperforming things were nerfed (IR, thief evade spam, warrior sustain uptime etc…), but a lot of things were still buffed across several classes. I honestly think ANet is just trying to normalize the capabilities of every class, and just missed the mark a bit on mesmer.

I wish I could believe that. History tends to suggest otherwise.

This is why I’ll be waiting a few months to buy any expansion. My prediction is that the new Mesmer elite will be great until the first buying flurry ends. Then it will suffer a series of nerfs.

Mesmer is an awesome main, if you like Mesmer. If you’re looking for mechanical advantages you’re far better off with something else.

If you’re willing to live with being on the low end and a frequent nerf target, for the love of the class, welcome aboard.

I “might” buy the expansion. We’ll see how many nerfs, reworks and skill giveaways the new Mesmer elite is hit with first.

So, guess I’ll wait at least a month or two.

In the words of a certain game show host; “so much winning, it’s fantastic, so great.”

From the perspective of GW1, Phantasms are more akin to Ritualist spirits than to illusions. Illusions exist in the minds of those they affect.

My GW1 Mesmer can use a Ritualist secondary and set up a spirit wall that looks a lot like a phantasm build and then use her invisible illusions.

In GW1 the spirits are mostly, ( unless you have Kurzik rank, ) immobile. I strongly suspect that this was changed because it was too much like a turret engie. So the spirits were weakened and made mobile. Something similar has happened to Ranger spirits.

Seen this way, it makes sense that phantasms should persist until kkilled or on a time limit like GW1 spirits. The spirits shift target to follow there owner’s aim.

tldr: Illusions exist in the mind of those affected. Phantasms function like Me/Rt ,( Mesmer/Ritualist, ) spirits. It makes sense that they should persist and change target.

I won’t be buying the expac, ( if any, ) for a few months.

I bought HoT,(twice,) in advance. This time though, I’m going to wait a few months and see what kind of nerfs, reworks and giveaways to other classes happen.

All of the games you mention are PvP focused, I believe. GW2 is not. That’s a crucial difference because the audience is fundamentally different.

GW2’s audience is generally not that of a high end pvp game in my opinion. Therefore, making PvP focused on high end players is not logical in GW2.

GW2 was not packaged (in mechanical terms ) or sold as a hard core PvP arena game. It’s audience really is not hard core PvP players or pros.

Promoting organized team play and exclusivist policies of “high skill floors” just tries to make the game something it’s not.

Trying to be something you are not is a potential path to disaster.

A better option would be to aim to make PvP enjoyable.

OriOri.8724:

The matchmaker does this because the population is too kitten low, for various reasons.

Until Anet does something that can get a much larger population back to PvP, then matchmaking will always have problems like this.

You hit the nail square on the head. Good one.

I think that’s a misunderstanding. PvP is a “team” game in the sense one might pick up a couple of random partners to play cards or some ball game.

It is not a “team” game, in the sense of uniforms and scrimmages.

I believe ANET’s mistake has been in paying too much attention to organized team play. GW2 is a game that wasn’t packaged or sold as a hard core PvP arena.

In GW1, I have a hero group. Yes, that’s team play. I play Monk or Mesmer and have a definite role. My heroes have specific team roles. But that’s seven AI characters and me. A full human team is far rarer. It’s often less effective, too.

Kasmeer Meade is my favorite character. I’m rooting for her to ascend back to nobility and marry her love. It’s disappointing to keep having her have confidence problems.

Caithe runs a close second.

Is that serious or are you trying to say that axe is the new weapon? In either case, source please.

ANET tried putting similar ranked players on the same team. That was s2-s3 and it was miserable for many players.

I’m sure the win streakers enjoyed it.

The reality is that most people will quit a game they consistently lose. All or virtually all serious sports go to great lengths to provide a level playing field.

That hasn’t happened in PvP for the most part. Teams vs. Solos, deliberately skewed matches, exploits such as throwing and smurfing… So, we come to the situation we have now. The rewards aren’t high enough to be worth taking beatings for the pleasure of the “top” players. Hence, population goes down.

As to being able to vote a teammate dishonor. That is so blatantly open to abuse that I am reasonably confident ANET will see the problem and not implement it.

I liked the personal interactions of the Asura and the side comments. It’s those kind of details that give Tyria it’s richness.

The last fight wasn’t excessively hard, which was a relief.

I was overjoyed to see Kasmeer dressed as a noble. She’s my hero. I wish she’d be reinstated as a noble and find a way past her confidence issues. She has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

As to the story; I’m ambivalent. Sounds like a power struggle developing among the gods in the tradition of the Olympian pantheon. I’m sure I and many humans will be interested in them breaking there silence after nearly 3 centuries.

Still, having Balthazar interfere directly in the affairs of Tyria runs contrary to the final episode of Nightfall and The Gods’ statements then. It also runs counter to Kormir’s final statement. See the picture below from my recent adventures in Tyria.

It will be interesting to see how ANET plays this.

ThatNAESLGuard.6238:

Ithilwen.1529:

This problem was created over multiple seasons.

The “competitive” matchmaking of s2-s3 was a big contributor. I find it amusing to see some of the same players who liked that system so well now complaining about being matched above there skill level.

I assume that it’s fun to crush games and exploit “noobs.” The problem is that sooner or later you run out of people willing to put up with it.

Now the rewards are too low to make it worthwhile for many players. They know they will be going into class stacked, uneven matches. That simply isn’t fun.

Et Voila, you get the situation we have now.

Sadly, I suspect that much of the development resources at ANET have been focused on raids and the new animated armor set.

Every single ESL or near ESL player disliked stackign once they got into legendary. It was ok getting us into the right division but after that we wanted it disabled.

Now let me get this straight… You liked stacking and exploits until you were in a position it didn’t help you anymore. Then, you wanted it removed so that it couldn’t be used by others.

That’s what I hear you saying. Am I wrong?

This problem was created over multiple seasons.

The “competitive” matchmaking of s2-s3 was a big contributor. I find it amusing to see some of the same players who liked that system so well now complaining about being matched above there skill level.

I assume that it’s fun to crush games and exploit “noobs.” The problem is that sooner or later you run out of people willing to put up with it.

Now the rewards are too low to make it worthwhile for many players. They know they will be going into class stacked, uneven matches. That simply isn’t fun.

Et Voila, you get the situation we have now.

Sadly, I suspect that much of the development resources at ANET have been focused on raids and the new animated armor set.

In past seasons, many players, (including ESL,) strongly backed deliberately stacked, one sided, “competitive” matchmaking. I was repeatedly told that I was a bad player and a whiner for complaining about it.

Now, many of the same players are complaining about being matched outside there skill level in stacked “competitive” matches.

ANET will have to make a major effort to rebuild population. It needs to start with even matches. Class stacking and other forms of exploit and farming will have to be curtailed and the rewards will need a significant boost.

I do this now in GW1 when I set up as Me/Rt, ( which is basically what a “modern” Mesmer is. ) The nice thing about using a Ritualist secondary is that the spirits have secondary effects, including damage mitigation and interrupts. Oh and btw, they do significant damage though they are immobile. That’s probably why they are considered balanced… they are immobile.( hint hint )

Mesmer/Ritualist Weapons in GW1 are not down tuned to compensate for hexes/spirits.

The spirits can be destroyed, ( they are immune to most hexes.) If not destroyed they die after a set time limit. They target whomever the player targets.

So, yes.. one form of this idea has been working for years in GW1 and still is. The major problem I see is that it partially cripples shatters. An immobile spirit/phantasm would be useless more often that not for shatter purposes. They could be released upon shatter.

I don’t understand this persistent request for nerfs.

@Ananeos, Mesmer is all about mind games. Therefore “wonky” mechanics are a perfect fit. I can’t think of any “game breaking” Mesmer skills, regardless of what others would have you believe.

Actually vanilla D/D Ele is very strong, even after the pvp nerfs. Tempest is even more so.

I’m not a huge fan of Phantaram.. but check out this video;

I find myself spending more time in GW1 than in GW2 of late.

This evening/morning I finished Nightfall for the first time. I sat in awe and watched the entire credits roll by as a tribute.

One thing that really stood out is how much turnover there has been. I think that the current GW2 staff could benefit a lot by playing through GW1. There is much to learn there.

Solo queue was the right call. PvP would have driven more people away with teams vs. solo.

@Apharma

I don’t see it that way. If “do or suggest the right thing” means a suggestion to unilaterally downgrade Mesmer, then no I don’t wish to do it.

The suggestion being made is to have a major nerf in the “faith” of getting reworks on other skills. Further, the “hope” is that all the other classes would receive similar downgrades and reworks.

Such faith and hope might be appropriate in a religious milieu. In the context of GW2, history suggests that those outcomes won’t happen. If they don’t, Mesmer gets crippled.

Sure, I can sympathize with the desire to help shape Mesmer and to improve the game. I don’t think this is a good path though.

That may well be the case. You’re still missing two important points;

All classes are in a similar position. So, the downgrade being discussed would make Mesmer trash tier. Hoping for a major across-the-board rework of elite specs seems unrealistic at this point. Discussing nerfing Mesmer in the hope that all classes would get similar treatment is not consistent with what we’ve seen from ANET.

There is no guarantee.. not even an intimation or an affirmative flicker of a hand fan.. that ANET would compensate Mesmer for such a huge downgrade with anything.

All-in-all.. I perceive this as asking for a nerf. I don’t thinks that’s a appropriate or a service to the Mesmer class.

@Carighan

In point of fact, I’m spending a lot of my gaming time in GW1 of late. I’m playing a [Panic] Mesmer and having a great time. The story is absorbing and the gameplay is fun.

To your comments, I’ve spent nearly 5 years playing GW2 a kittening lot. I have significantly more than a year.. actually online and playing. Obsession?

I care about this game and about Mesmer in particular. Since I don’t see signs of major fixes for Mesmer on the horizon, I feel we should hold on to what we have and hope that the future is brighter.

Some of the suggestions in this thread call for a major nerf.. one that in and of itself would pretty much cripple Mesmer. I’m aware that replacements and fixes are proposed in exchange.

The problem is that ANET’s track record does not lead me to believe that the replacements and fixes would come. Rather, I believe Mesmer would get the nerf and not the other half.

History tells me that ANET would simply cripple CS and not give anything in return. I’ve already dealt with years of being bottom tier after the huge glamour nerf.

No, I don’t want to see that again.

Ori, you have suggested major nerfs to Mesmer both here and on the PvP forum. In particular, making CS not affect elites.

I wish you’d consider more carefully. In my opinion, Mesmer is on the low end of acceptable for pvp as it is. Asking for nerfs , especially major ones, at this point is really counter productive.

I’ve been spending a lot of time in GW1 of late. It’s something to work on while the season gets over.

Polymock is a new discovery for me. A pvp version in GW2 would be awesome and here’s why;

Balance issues are non existent. You are playing with immobile standard pieces.

Because you’re playing with set pieces it’s all about skills.

It’s a practical 1v1 mode, regardless of what classes the two players are on.

Best of all from ANET’s POV, players would buy/grind prestige game pieces. Here’s a game mode that ANET could easily and reliably balance.

TW requires a GM trait in Inspiration to work like that and trades away the Phantasmal Defender trait.Taking Inspiration also cuts down on your damage.

It feels like there is a faction in the game that thinks Mesmer should be weaker than other classes. I do not agree. Skilled play is one thing, playing with a handicap is another.

In Star Trek Online, one can use [Scramble Sensors] causing enemies to briefly target there allies thinking they are you.

This would be a highly Mesmer appropriate skill. Misdirecting attacks feels like it could even be the basis for an elite spec.

That would be great. I hope they make it more available. I missed it in season 2.

I have just ascended for the first time in GW1. Part of that awesome story was facing my doppelganger.

The doppelganger is an ai run version of yourself. There was a similar mission in City of Heroes. I think it was called “Mirror, Mirror.”

Facing yourself is an important and difficult part of advancing spiritually. On a practical level, it’s fun and teaches you about how your toon could be played.

I think a mission to face your doppelganger would be a fun and popular notion.

OK granted, GW2 doesn’t differentiate skill types. DH traps do more damage than I am proposing and they continue damaging long enough to overcome most defenses such as sword 2. I’m talking about a trap that would do less damage and be totally avoidable. I don’t see the balance issue.

No, I’m pointing out that thief has a passive traited rng interrupt that works quite well.
It’s one reason dd is tough to fight. It’s as though our staff 1 also interrupted.

Yes you can f1 on thief, steal boons, interrupt and deliver a massive poison attack while your opponent is immobilized. It is a rare Mesmer who can do that.

Unblockable interrupts? wow, wouldn’t that be nice. I proposed such a thing at the beginning of this thread. Scepter 2 might be a good candidate.

I also proposed on-block interrupts. This is logical and requires skill, as opposed to passive rng thief style.

I’m not asking for gravity well on staff 5. That’s a gross overstatement. I’m asking for an envelope of interrupt time.

To your comment about “an entire enemy team…,” I run a venomshare thief in dungeons. ( I do teaching runs. So I run venomshare or well chrono to support newish people. ) My party regularly stealths up and delivers a basi venom attack, immobilizing the enemy for some time + poison. This would be a real kitten in pvp if you could get the team to cooperate. (then again, it would be nerfed into the ground so maybe it’s better most teams don’t listen )

In GW1 that was ( and still is ) known as a “Nuker” build. You use [Psychic Instability] to knock down the enemy team, giving your w/d/a several free hits.

This was allegedly the purpose of wells and gravity well in particular. Again, I don’t see the balance issue here. Other classes are capable of doing the same. A dh can cc and wipe an entire team on a node in seconds. A druid can also immobilize multiple targets I believe. Thief has this capability though it’s rarely used.

An unblockabe interrupt, perhaps via on-block, would be the kitten’s meow although the screams from wars would be audible all the way in Bellevue.

We are converging on this point, a way to get around the stability immunity. I may have misunderstood the reason my interrupts weren’t working. Stability might be the issue as opposed to timing.

Weren’t the high rated players the ones telling me; “learn to play” when I was complaining of the same thing?

I’m not unsympathetic, but I am laughing at the hypocrisy.

Trevor, I have to admit… You have told me many times in past seasons that matchmaking wasn’t the issue and that I simply needed to learn to play.

I’m asking for a reliable interrupt. Thieves have a really nice one that auto attacks. With a reasonable interrupt, we’d see interrupt Mesmers playing.

I think that an on-block interrupt or adding interrupt to the full length of chaos storm would be two possible ways of getting there.

So, me being me, I took an interrupt build out for a spin. Unranked is wonky and not a really ideal testing ground. This was a very short trial balloon, but interesting results.

The resistance with glamour and boom stripping turned out to be a nasty surprise for some of my opponents. Use Focus 4 (part 2 ) just before focus 5 or shatter when not trying to hit an interrupt. When attacked by thieves use Focus 5 and stand right next to the phant. (The focus phantasm is too slow for most offense situations.) Time Warp with resistance and extra duration turned a couple of mid and bell fights.

I don’t actually know how to post my build on calculators. They say a picture’s worth 1000 words. The setup is to be played almost entirely with my right hand, using a Razer Naga Epic. Mouse 4 is weapon swap.

~edit~ oh and yeah that’s my crafted [The Legend]

Justine.6351:

Chaos storm
Traited focus
Tides of time
Mirror
Feedback
Gravity well

Mirror of Anguish

Rune of surging
Rune of the earth
Rune of the Golemancer

Are sources of potential delayed/reactive interupts.

Feedback and Mirror would be pure rng. I don’t want to trust that. Focus is a good call except that you give up an awful lot for it.

Both focus and shield 5 require that they hit exactly within a casting time. That means about 1/4 second to react ( and in the case of shield, to have the wall move. )

This is the reasoning behind my request for a long interrupt on staff 5 , on-block interrupt or a hex style trap interrupt. A quarter second simply is not enough margin to consistently interrupt.. That is the primary reason that interrupt Mesmers are a non thing in GW2. Not even ESL level players will run it, despite the deadly potential.

Yes thieves do interrupt, but that’s an automatic traited thing.

~edit~

Rune of Earth requires being struck while below 20% health for a short duration RNG chance at interrupt.. not a good bet.

Rune of Surging is more interesting but requires the use of an elite and being close enough to the enemy to strike or be struck in melee… also quite short duration. This is also not a good bet.

Golemancer runes do not appear to be available in PvP.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

So it’s too hard to interrupt in gw2 because it’s too fast paced (it’s not) but seeing a one second cast ability that hexes you in a team fight and then knowing for the next second you can’t use any ability, so you spam stow weapon. That’s your definition of fair game play? You don’t blow an unimportant skill in gw2 when you know that halting strike (and the new interrupt sigil that will be added to pvp etc) is going to proc. You have to wait that out.

snipped for brevity

Isn’t that in effect what thieves do with steal + basi venom? I don’t see the problem here.

I’m really presenting two parallel suggestions. One is the idea of a trap hex.

The other is to allow Staff 5 to consistently stun. Engineer has an aoe stun so it’s not considered OP. Also add an on-block stun to scepter and shield. This would make interrupt Mesmer practical.

@DuckDuckBoom To your comment of “just get good.” If it were as easy and practical as you portray, we would see interrupt Mesmers playing.

I realize that it’s fun to say “get good,” but in this case it’s not justified. Interrupt Mesmer is near unicorn status in PvP. The reason is that it’s too hard to play. The official wiki acknowledges this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Interrupt See the comment under “Trivia.” Full Stop.

-edit- Oh btw.. I’m playing GW1 intensively atm. There are hexes for just about any subset of skills and some general purpose ones as well. What you said there was not accurate.

If and when the expansion is released I’ll be waiting before buying. I bought HoT twice.

This time I’ll wait and see for some months ’til things settle, ( and the first nerf / rework cycle is done,) before I decide whether or not to buy.

With regard to mounts, gliders are pretty close to flying mounts and there are gemstore based ground mounts. I’m thinking of Flying Carpet, Broom and Sonic tunneler.

One thing that all of the above share in common is that you can’t fight when mounted ( except in one specific place.) They don’t move much faster than a toon jogging. If those conditions were preserved, I don’t see an issue with mounts and they’d probably be a big seller.

@OriOri

But that would be the skill factor. You see that you are hexed, so you blow an unimportant skill. We do the same with dh traps, blow a shatter to wiff the trap.

On a side note;

If in fact there is another expac coming, I won’t buy it for several months. I’ll decide whether to buy after I see how hard the Mesmer nerfs are.

I bought deluxe HoT twice. I won’t do that again.

I hear you. Still, the traits are there already for an interrupt build. I’d claim that means that interrupt builds were intended.

By making interrupts just a little bit more accessible, for example by adding them to [Chaos Storm](non random stun) and [Confusing Images], ANET would permit a whole new genre of Mesmer.

This is reasonable. Engi aoe stun is not random. Give an on-block stun to scepter and an aoe stun to staff 5 and you’d see interrupt Mesmers.

I’m in Ventari’s Haven taking a break as I type this. (just got done grinding my collector armor set) Enjoying my GW1 Mesmer very much.

Faux Play.6104:

Look at the wiki. People with dishonor stacks are more likely to be on the same team. It is a great feature IMO put all the salty people with bad internet on the same team. if you are the type of person that racks up dishonor, just take a couple days off and your dishonor stacked will go away. Are you suggesting that bad behavior should be rewarded vs. Punished?

No I’m complaining that it’s well known that punishment generally leads to more problems. Here and I thought I had basically horrible luck.

Am I a bad sport? Yes.. and so would you be if you experienced regular 10+ loss streaks. My current record is something over 68 straight losses.

And now I find out that it’s because I am being punished for salt behind my back? Does anyone wonder where the salt came from or why it continues?

What’s the point of punishing me without telling me why? Triggered memories here.

Do I get worse games for making unpopular posts on forum?

I could have fixed this A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO and avoided a lot of misery if someone had bothered to tell me… now I am angry. Going to stop typing now..

Faux Play.6104:

Ithilwen.1529:

Ramoth.9064:

It’s been said before, but too many people in this game think they are better than they really are. If you are crap, you get losing streaks, it’s really that simple.

You’re missing my point. The function of matchmaking is to make even matches. Long losing streaks turn people off. They are also evidence that the matchmaker is not doing an adequate job.

No it is the job of the matchmaker to put similar people on the same team. Not just ability but also if you get reported a lot and have a dishonor stacks you are more likely to be playing with teammates that do too. If the game tried to force 50% win for every match, the person that got the top rank would have gotten there by pure luck. Ultimately, the system will drive you to a 50% win ratio because you will settle where you belong. The only exceptions are people that are either at the top end of the rating spectrum (high win % because they are always playing people that aren’t as good), or at the bottom (low win % because they are always playing people better).

If I am down rated for being reported and/or because my forum posts are disliked as you suggest… It can only be counterproductive.

A person is unhappy.. punish them so that they become even less happy.. vicious cycle. I have long wondered if my account was targeted somehow.

There was never a system that attempted to create a 50% win ratio as far as I know. That seems to be a persistent myth. The system of S2-S3 deliberately created matches with one side intended to win. It also rewarded win streaks and punished loss streaks.

Unfortunately that meant imposing virtually pre-determined losses on half the players in each match on the theory that the matches would “level out” as the season progressed. The level out never happened.

I think the game should have a safety net. Routine losses chase people away. That’s particularly true if the losses are large. 2 of my 3 matches today were lost by over 400 points. I contend that is symptomatic of a match making problem and/or balance issues..

Here’s today so far. These kind of games definitely are not encouraging. There was no possibility of carrying them. I got 3 top stats in the last one and was consistently 1v2-3.

Sorry.. you really cannot just blame the player.