Guild Wars 2

Now you got LEGENDARY players complaining they got nobody to play with. This has happened EVERY tier, emerald, sapphire, ruby, diamond, the EXACT SAME COMPLAINTS.

ZoroDaOtter.3859:

Shadow.1345:

Number 1, 2 and 3 are causing a loop that is creating frustrations. We’ll take a pro player (and for the sakes of my point we will say anyone with a high enough skill level to be competitive in at least AG is a “pro player”), he gets all these blow out matches and maybe he thinks it’s great while he’s getting easy pips and then hits Legendary. Now what? Queue times are horrendous and even when he gets one there isn’t much of a tangible reward. So after a day or two of this he goes to an alt account or buys a new account to start the journey again so he can actually get matches. He plays these matches against lower skill levels and destroys them until he gets to Legendary again to start the process all over again. Multiply this by the number of pros doing the same thing.

Now take a casual player that isn’t that good or is maybe just getting into PvP. He gets rolled over and over again. He makes complaints and gets told by these same pros to just wait until things settle. So he waits and keeps playing or maybe takes a few days off but then comes back to face those same pros on new accounts. Then they complain again and get told they are where they belong but how do they get where they belong when they are facing Legendaries (on alt accounts) instead of Emeralds, Sapphires and Rubies.

Am I the only one that sees the deconstructive cycle here?

Placement games are pretty much the answer to this, but might not work well due to population. And if you do get placed into a lower tier you can probably still play your way out relatively fast considering how good people are mowing their way out of Amber->Sapphire.

Shadow.1345:

On the last 2 I will say that seeing only the same 4-6 classes being good is boring. There is a complete lack of variety which is boring to play and even more boring to watch. Why wait a half hour just to see 6 Reapers in the match? I don’t see a reason. Imbalanced balance requires more professions if you want it to work, or at the very least have all professions being viable but countering other professions. Not just the same 5 builds.

IMO this is a symptom of Anet’s balancing style, which hasn’t really changed since GW1.

Shadow.1345:

And then there comes Esports. Face it ANet you don’t have the viewership or playerbase in PvP. You are making the same mistake every new MOBA makes, you tried to go esports before you had the popularity to back it up. 4k viewers? That’s nothing. Multiply that by a hundred and you get about 10% of the viewers LoL gets for their World Championships. That money should have been spent on improving the game rather than trying to create something you don’t have the popularity for.

And why would you? “Hey wanna pay 50 bucks to play an imbalanced game and try to be a pro player?” Reply: “Nah, I think I’ll play LoL it’s free and even with the imbalance it still offers me more choices as well as a larger fan base.”

Anet has heavily hinted that the esports aspect is more of a giant ad than anything else, and they’re very satisfied with the number of new players it has generated. I don’t think they expect it to get anywhere near LoL, DotA, or Starcraft.

WHAT new players? All e-sports pushing ever did was drive them AWAY.

The REWARD TRACKS and BACKPACK are what brought new players. Let’s not kid ourselves.

Basket of Boxes.1976:

drgast.1469:

Basket of Boxes.1976:

The people enjoying the game are probably you know, in it playing and not crying on the forums. The people who are not happy will always be the loudest and that’s why it is mostly what you will see.

So you are enjoying this season? Or you are crying about people crying and not playing? Or both? Or you are not enjoying this season and are simply crying about other people crying? This is confusing.

This season is 100 times better than season 1 so yes I am enjoying it, I can play less matches and progress just as fast.

I pop onto the forums once or twice a day to see if there is anything good posted but its usually just a page about people crying for nerfs or crying about bad team mates. Occasionally there is something interesting or something worth reading though, plus the whining can be funny at times.

Honestly if people hate PvP so much they should just stop playing it. They know there will be no changes till the end of the season, and they aren’t doing themselves any favours. Lots of people are only participating for the back pack so they can easily go PvE in the meantime instead of bashing their heads into a wall.

Well…maybe they should then. Just don’t come back to these forums and lament that the pvp game is dead when they actually do so.

Not me, that’s for sure.

This season is WORSE than season 1. Season 1 at least had the matchmaking principle correct.

The balance is still bad, of course, but more manageable than last season.

I would honestly say to play unranked, MUCH more fun.

Let’s not congratulate OR hate on him. Leeto merely exploited an ATROCIOUS league system that was DESIGNED for people to grind to legendary.

I heard the game changed leadership recently, so I’ll give it one last chance. If there’s no pvp system change by season 3 along with REAL balance and it’s just more of the same, then I’m DONE. I’ll just play unranked, it’s MUCH more fun!

it’s DONE. The matchmaking is absolutely atrocious, along with game balance and a flawed league/pip system.

People are quitting in droves. One of the only reasons you even see people playing is to grind out the season for the backpack or grind rewards. If those two things did not exist, pvp is DEAD. These leagues are a JOKE.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

style.6173:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Vlad.1739:

At first I was not going to bother responding to your critique but I believe there is some hope to get my point across so I posted. I will address you on a point by point basis

-Nobody has factual evidence on a scale to prove anything except someone who can data mine anet’s logs. What we can prove are only things based on our experiences in game.

-On meta builds: search and rescue druid as I briefly explained is not a build that can carry a team to force wins. resurrecting a bad player means hes going to die again faster than search and rescue gets used or you get countered while using search and rescue by good player. I will not go further in detail I am not writing a thesis on why res bot druid is bad. What I will say res bot druid not good because you get destroyed when outnumbered by competent players or in team fight if focused by ppl with ports. Resurrect druid will not make wins happen when you are behind. Where as a good Mesmer for example can make a win happen with a good portal play. A good elementalist on a team with no elementalist will increase the teams chance of winning if he can support mid and not let it get capped regardless of teammates deaths occurring the point stays decapped until it can be contested again into another fight. A druid not wasting utilities on SnR and not in clerics can force wins by being one of the best 1v1 builds thus forcing wins on side points and rotating in and out scoring points increasing likelihood your team wins.

-On point 3: People do not have low MMR for no reason. I will concede if it is true new players starting in low MMR and not some average number as bad design. Having low MMR means you do not meet the games expectations of you. You can get out of so called MMR hell in 1 of 2 ways. Team Q or play well enough to beat expectations unless someone can prove the expectation system is deeply flawed which I have yet to be shown. If a player can not do either then they will get stuck is that fair I think so is it fun no it is not and perhaps Anet should do something about it.

-On positive win ratios: This ties into being good enough to carry to some extent or not being dead weight to your team. If you are better than 50% of the population playing you should have more than 50% win ratio. Thus over time you will get needed wins to become a legend. if you are this good but not winning because of MMR system. You need to start performing above expectations in matches, score more points to be where you should, which is hopefully in a place where you are on the winning 50% of the population.

-It is pointless to keep blaming your team for losing under the current system. The system expects you to rise up out of the hellhole that is low ranks and be deciding factor in your team winning or to perform above expectations to get better teams.
-the world is not fair but in GW2 there is are underlying systems that generate what is perceived as unfair. Long time players do not have low MMR or negative win ratio for no good reason. So if you have low MMR you deserved it for not performing well enough. If MMR should be reset at new leagues is a different debate and maybe it should to make the game more fun for certain people. Unlike the world GW2 success is a much greater degree in the hands of an individual. As in playing builds with potential to swing games and make plays, performing better than expected, and gaining in skill.

-To address your points of deserving I will point out as much as I hate to Helseth is going to carry someone he found who believes he is skilled enough to rank up but hard done by the system on a brand new account (IE low MMR) while I will be the first to admit there are a few flaws in his methodology what it will at-least prove if you are good enough you will rank up because you deserve it and will earn it because you are a deciding factor in games and/or queuing with a good player is enough to rank up. On another point Helseth plays Mesmer a known good player and as I have stated before a good Mesmer can steal games. I am very sure He will succeed in ranking up his adopted player.

Nice point but there is such a thing as elo hell. One person can’t carry 4 bads players, you just can’t unless his opponent team is full of bads as well. Which is very unlikely in this meta. And as everyone as pointed, druids are meta. So kitten might explain why your anecdotal experience differs from the OP. But flat out saying there is no such thing as MMR hell is Def wrong and untrue.

You need to understand that at some point people match out on their own potential and will just blame bad matchmaking.

True, except a lot of the people complaining, myself included obviously, are doing so BECAUSE they witness their potential being held back as opposed to having hit the wall of their own limits. It seems to be really hard for some to wrap their head around this.

Nailed it. I wish more people that deny these problems even exist understand this.

Celtus.8456:

1. Balance HoT specs to be in line with the core game specs. Meta PvP now is almost exclusively elite specs vs elite specs, this is not acceptable balance for the Guild Wars franchise. Get this kitten together.

2. Remove amulets/fix statting. You don’t seem to know wtf to do with stats in pvp, always removing/adding new ones and we always end up with a couple being abused and the rest never used. Time for a new system?

3. Allow PvP queuing outside of Heart of the Mists.

4. Matchmaking is ok, stop listening to the whiners. Matchmaking has been FINE for years, the only issue is broken balance and abuse/stacking of badly balanced professions (this is part of the BALANCE issue not MATCHMAKING).

5. Add some more maps/modes for kittens sake.

Matchmaking is NOT ok. Look at the results! lol

You also didn’t mention that it’s the old algorithm that’s been sound for years, not the new one they’re now using.

I have. I’m in sapphire- tier 3.

I also solo queued last season and got to ruby.

Daroon.1736:

Presumably there is only 1 matchmaking algorithm:

If so, and indeed if it is set to always pit high MMR teams V low MMR teams, my dead Aunt could have predicted that; regardless of what division you are in or how long the tournament lasts, these type of unbalanced matches will continue forever.

Correct. When players get to legendary, they will have the SAME complaints as before. Now we know why.

Sirendor.1394:

lil devils x.6071:

sparc.3649:

lil devils x.6071:

sparc.3649:

It is not and SHOULD not be a priority to bring those CRAPPY BORING OLD maps back!

Just sayin’ – why would they make progress out of reversion… To revert (bring back old maps) would be a step BACKWARD, BAD idea!

Snip

Bla bla

Yes, you and your two friends enjoy the DBL.

I lol’d. A real stinger.

ONLY if they can find each other. :P

Dirtyrascal.1023:

JTGuevara.9018:

We are now at three weeks and there are STILL reports of blowouts!

Season 1 was better than this.

Confirmed – teams are so imbalanced it’s just not fun.
Knowing with absolutely certainty the outcome of the game after the 1st minute is getting really old.

Losses are hopeless losses with team mates who genuinely don’t know what to do.
Wins are empty facerolling roflstomps with no sense of achievement.

It’s just an MMR coin toss.

Let’s see how many people are left on April. :P

Celeras.4980:

Obfuscate the problem? What is the problem, exactly? The system is designed to give you teammates at your own skill level. The benefits of this are:

- Good players don’t linger in the lower ranks and beat up on bad players by getting random teammates in the beginning of the season.
- Your ladder rank is a meaningful indication of skill. You will shoot up easily if you are better than the majority of players at your pip range.
- Match quality increases at higher ranks.

The “cons”:
- Bad players will have a difficult time digging themselves out of their hole because their losses do not send them down in Amber/Emerald. This causes most of these ranks to have a fairly large range (proportionately) of skill in them because your pip range will generally be determined by how many games you played. A sapphire player can either be a “true” sapphire, or an amber quality player with 100s of games.
- Bad players will, unfortunately, have unbalanced matchups at the beginning of the season while players better than them climb. It’s a PvP ladder. Working as intended.

If you want to fix these “cons”, how is random teammates the answer? Bad players will still have unbalanced matchups and still have difficulty climbing, they’ll just be crossing their fingers to get carried by a lucky teammate draw. Which they’ll be able to do for longer, because good players will be stuck in lower ranks for longer than they currently are (and consequently spend more time beating up on bad players).

Ya’ll can shout from the rooftops all you want, but the point remains: there is not a single “pro” to randomizing teammates within a pip range. As long as you cannot lose progress in Amber/Emerald/Sapphire, the problem will always exist because bad players climb sheerly on volume.

And lets be a real: a PvP ladder is not about the lower 50% of the community. Sorry.

Absolute NONSENSE.

What is the problem?! Try reading the hundreds and hundreds of posts on the season matchmaking and league system! THERE’S your problem. There’s the fact that players are QUITTING. Even the DEVELOPERS admitted that there was a problem, that it IS NOT working “as intended”. (Whatever that means)

You keep looking at division loss, FORGET division loss. All division loss will do with this particular matchmaking system is segregate the so-called “good” players and “bad” players even further making the problem worse. The “league” system and its tiers is just for cosmetics, the real machinery is the matchmaking system, which is a FAILURE.

Third, your little quip about the community. If there is no community, THERE IS NO LADDER.

Try harder, deniers.

We are now at three weeks and there are STILL reports of blowouts!

Season 1 was better than this.

Beliyal.7085:

Daroon.1736:

Oh and more importantly, why, when it has been stated that they are aware of the matchmaking ‘issue’, they feel it is a good idea to wait months before fixing it.

My guess is that if they changed anything mid-season, it would screw up the whole thing. Like, if they suddenly changed the algorithms or MMR or matchmaking in general, it might boost some players through divisions artificially and then create another issue in higher divisions.

Or maybe these things need testing and they can’t effectively do that while the season is in progress.

I don’t know honestly. I’d like for something to change, mostly because, same as you, I’m worried about the overall health of the game. The longer it continues, the more anger and bile I experience in chat, as well as more and more quitters and afkers. Like, people give up before the first minute of the match ends. The match starts with 100-40, someone gives up because they think nothing will change. Of course it won’t if we play 4v5. I don’t understand, I’ve had matches where things were turned around post-400 points.

Playing in group helps, but I can’t always form a group. “Git gud” advice is childish, obviously every player is doing their best within their skill range. No one was born with MLG PvP skills, these things take time to learn, but you can hardly learn when you’re being stomped and act as a punching bag for high-skill players on their way to Legendary. I’m glad those people enjoy their climb and are getting their rewards, but the cost of this is too great I’d say. Far more players are not that good and are being put off by zero progress and highly negative experiences. I personally don’t even care about losing, as long as those losses are something I can understand and learn from. Can’t learn from 500-50 result where you’re basically cannon fodder for 4 minutes. It’s also not fun or competitive when I’m on the winning side in these matches.

That’s the thing. The whole thing is screwed up anyway! They literally cannot do any worse than what we have now.

Celeras.4980:

I think people (mostly bad players) need to get over the fact that teammates are chosen by MMR. Its not like bad teammates would magically go away if it was chosen completely randomly. The people who want this kind of thing are just hoping to be carried, at the expense of causing good players to stay at lower ranks for longer. And, consequently, beat up on bad players for longer. Nobody wants that.

Quite frankly this is only even a talking point because bad players can’t fall in Amber/Emerald etc. They grind out their games by losing a ton, and get a rank higher than their skill level. Then complain about it… which is ironic because the checkpoints only exist to give them a way to make a little progress in the first place.

NO, people DO NOT need to “get over it”. ONCE AGAIN deniers are not paying attention to what people are trying to say. All you guys do is OBFUSCATE THE PROBLEM.

It’s not about individuals complaining about bad teammates, it’s about the system that’s DESIGNED to hand them over each time you lose a game.

jessiestiles.9437:

There’s a simple way to discredit Helseth’s argument. If it is as possible to carry as he says, why did he have his tantrum last season when the system tried to make the MMR of both team even? He didn’t have to carry a bad team against a good team. He had to carry mediocre teams against mediocre teams and couldn’t kittening do it. Then made the noobiest youtube tantrum ever.

Exactly. This is why I don’t buy denier’s nonsense. This system is NOT legit.

Well, TWO WEEKS later and the matches have not stabilized. This system is a joke. Anet PLEASE fix pvp.

Yes, I’ll sign. Go ahead and put my name on that list, OP.

I’ve been on emerald since day 2! I’m on tier 4 now. Everytime I lose a game, the matchmaking ties my hands together. Every two losses, it ties my ankles. Every three losses, it ties me to a boulder. And, people talking about,

“carry those 4 other players”

FOOLISHNESS!

Astralporing.1957:

JTGuevara.9018:

morrolan.9608:

Agemnon.4608:

antichecker.1675:

AegisFLCL.7623:

Kayberz.5346:

Another note
To the players saying “my current league position doesnt reflect where i should be” ok….no duh. We are only like a 3rd of the way through the season. If you hit a brick wall, STOP PLAYING. Why are you people trying to rush so fast?
If you really believe in this “bad mmr spiral” then why are you DELIBERATELY throwing yourselves into it when your on a losing streak? Every time i start getting bad matches over and over i STOP. No point queueing into the same bad matchups, and theres no point rushing directly to your final standing in the league only to have hour long queues when all your trying to do is your daily matches.
Ill say it again, all i see is entitlement and a want for instant gratification

+1

Probably another thing that should’ve been mentioned, stop queuing past the 4th loss. Bad matchups, you’re frustrated and not playing well, not focused, lots of stuff goes into it. I always take a break if I get a few bad matches in a row.

This bull*. So the response to the broken matchmaking is, stop playing and try again later? Let’s not fix things, just avoid problems or abuse them.

No abuse required, one could simply stop playing for a couple of days and wait for higher MMR players to go out of reach while lower MMR players move up. This will increase the chances of you being on the higher end of MMR within that pip range.

This was meant to happen after 1 week, still hasn’t happened after almost 2. This is a theory that doesn’t work out in practice in all probability because there are always higher level players moving through the ranks. Opposing teams have to be matched by mmr.

I wonder what the deniers will say the THIRD week.

To wait a week more.
I bet the same will be said on the last week as well.

LOL I wouldn’t be surprised!

morrolan.9608:

Agemnon.4608:

antichecker.1675:

AegisFLCL.7623:

Kayberz.5346:

Another note
To the players saying “my current league position doesnt reflect where i should be” ok….no duh. We are only like a 3rd of the way through the season. If you hit a brick wall, STOP PLAYING. Why are you people trying to rush so fast?
If you really believe in this “bad mmr spiral” then why are you DELIBERATELY throwing yourselves into it when your on a losing streak? Every time i start getting bad matches over and over i STOP. No point queueing into the same bad matchups, and theres no point rushing directly to your final standing in the league only to have hour long queues when all your trying to do is your daily matches.
Ill say it again, all i see is entitlement and a want for instant gratification

+1

Probably another thing that should’ve been mentioned, stop queuing past the 4th loss. Bad matchups, you’re frustrated and not playing well, not focused, lots of stuff goes into it. I always take a break if I get a few bad matches in a row.

This bull*. So the response to the broken matchmaking is, stop playing and try again later? Let’s not fix things, just avoid problems or abuse them.

No abuse required, one could simply stop playing for a couple of days and wait for higher MMR players to go out of reach while lower MMR players move up. This will increase the chances of you being on the higher end of MMR within that pip range.

This was meant to happen after 1 week, still hasn’t happened after almost 2. This is a theory that doesn’t work out in practice in all probability because there are always higher level players moving through the ranks. Opposing teams have to be matched by mmr.

I wonder what the deniers will say the THIRD week.

Yasi.9065:

After having played a friends account in diamond league with a more than average mmr…

YES IT IS BAD ENOUGH TO BOYCOTT THIS kitten.

And what did they confirm… you mean this?
[Quote]Erik: MMR is not adjusting down enough when losing from higher rated opponents

This has NOTHING to do with the current problems players are facing in ruby t1.[/quote]

TELL ’EM.

lol this system is just like call of doody, just hand out perks everytime you get a frag. All while with every loss the matchmaking decides to stack an anvil on your back.

Agemnon.4608:

JTGuevara.9018:

Agemnon.4608:

antichecker.1675:

AegisFLCL.7623:

Kayberz.5346:

Another note
To the players saying “my current league position doesnt reflect where i should be” ok….no duh. We are only like a 3rd of the way through the season. If you hit a brick wall, STOP PLAYING. Why are you people trying to rush so fast?
If you really believe in this “bad mmr spiral” then why are you DELIBERATELY throwing yourselves into it when your on a losing streak? Every time i start getting bad matches over and over i STOP. No point queueing into the same bad matchups, and theres no point rushing directly to your final standing in the league only to have hour long queues when all your trying to do is your daily matches.
Ill say it again, all i see is entitlement and a want for instant gratification

+1

Probably another thing that should’ve been mentioned, stop queuing past the 4th loss. Bad matchups, you’re frustrated and not playing well, not focused, lots of stuff goes into it. I always take a break if I get a few bad matches in a row.

This bull*. So the response to the broken matchmaking is, stop playing and try again later? Let’s not fix things, just avoid problems or abuse them.

No abuse required, one could simply stop playing for a couple of days and wait for higher MMR players to go out of reach while lower MMR players move up. This will increase the chances of you being on the higher end of MMR within that pip range.

HA! What a joke! The system is BROKEN.

No seriously I was stuck in T4 emerald for a week even with minimal play (three games at most usually) then I streaked to T1 sapphire today. Had I regularly played from the pip range’s low end my MMR would have plummeted even further and might not have made it. A team isn’t as good as its best player it’s an average between all five.

Maybe the system is fine at its most basic core but needs some adjustments like a placement preseason with an MMR reset?

LET me repeat myself:

THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN.

[quote=6025563;Agemnon.4608:]

ronpierce.2760:

JTGuevara.9018:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

JTGuevara.9018:

ronpierce.2760:

KreatE.7612:

much skill such balance
This new mmr is HILARIOUS and i’m loving every second of it. ALTHOUGH, I have had to hard carry plenty of games I would have otherwise lost. But still…. the advantage is so ridiculous on average.

S2 is glorious.

Realistically, when everyone is thrown into a single tier at the start, and MMR matches people to others with relatively close skill, AND they are good enough to make the higher tiers, there’s really nothing that should be all that surprising about it. The new MMR isn’t broken, it’s just different, and does close to no hand-holding, which is why you see outliers with huge win steaks and losses, because realistically, that’s feasible until people get to (or are stuck in) an appropriate division. Unfortunately, people don’t understand that on a system that tries to rank people against one another, there are often clear cut losers, and Amber/emerald might actually be where people belong. It sucks, but someone has to be that person. Luckily for them, at least they can grind their way to Sapphire and maybe even Ruby, but that’s leniency on the developer’s part.

Now, before I get hopped all over, I realize there may be a few unluckies who got swept up in a bad chain of events. I’m going to be honest though, and say I can safely assume that isn’t the majority of people upset with Season 2, which in many cases is just a hard wake up call for people who no longer get paired with people intentionally to carry them (Unranked). And then there are those who tanked their MMR in the past, which I can’t really feel sorry for…

Anyways, as it evens out through the divisions, it’s not as bad as people think. The bigger problem seems to be sore losers and what to do with them, along with wonky class Balance which favors a certain few, likely making it easier for them to get their wins.

blah blah blah STOP defending it. NOT EVEN PROFESSIONAL ESL PLAYERS get 40 wins in a row!! 40 wins?! 40 WINS?! Lol and you say it’s not broken, but “different”?!

HA! Oh it’s different alright, broken in different pieces! You DENIERS always amuse me.

You should get that shift/caps lock key checked, seems to be broken

Hit a nerve didn’t I?

If anyone hit a nerve, I think it was me. :P

So says the one defending him.

Agemnon.4608:

antichecker.1675:

AegisFLCL.7623:

Kayberz.5346:

Another note
To the players saying “my current league position doesnt reflect where i should be” ok….no duh. We are only like a 3rd of the way through the season. If you hit a brick wall, STOP PLAYING. Why are you people trying to rush so fast?
If you really believe in this “bad mmr spiral” then why are you DELIBERATELY throwing yourselves into it when your on a losing streak? Every time i start getting bad matches over and over i STOP. No point queueing into the same bad matchups, and theres no point rushing directly to your final standing in the league only to have hour long queues when all your trying to do is your daily matches.
Ill say it again, all i see is entitlement and a want for instant gratification

+1

Probably another thing that should’ve been mentioned, stop queuing past the 4th loss. Bad matchups, you’re frustrated and not playing well, not focused, lots of stuff goes into it. I always take a break if I get a few bad matches in a row.

This bull*. So the response to the broken matchmaking is, stop playing and try again later? Let’s not fix things, just avoid problems or abuse them.

No abuse required, one could simply stop playing for a couple of days and wait for higher MMR players to go out of reach while lower MMR players move up. This will increase the chances of you being on the higher end of MMR within that pip range.

HA! What a joke! The system is BROKEN.

I don’t blame people for leaving. I still like the game overall, but gw2 NEEDS competition to get it off its behind. Gw2 is literally taking it easy.

Veneratio.1980:

JTGuevara.9018:

Veneratio.1980:

I joined. After 4 days of the snowball of hell and being stuck in Sapphire t2. Met 4 guys in exactly the same position. Good players on the wrong side of the mmr coin.

First match. Down 110-20. Lost mid fight to start had home decapped too. WON
Second match. Down 220-150. Won mid but lost home and far. Scattered a bit over the map. Regrouped. WON
Third match. Lead from start to finish. Played as a team and for the first time in days pvp was fun for us all again.

After all being on losing streaks to start those 3 wins gave us all a tier up. Yay!

Now essentially, this was 5 people who didn’t know each other the same as any other pug but the big difference was attitude and communication. When we were losing the was no kittening and finger pointing. Only instruction and positivity. And god those comebacks were sweet.

There is hope yet.

HELL no there is no hope. The system is BADLY designed.

Lol I agree on the design part. Can’t believe they thought this was a good idea. But at least I can have some fun until/if the fix in season 3.

If you want some fun and REAL competitiveness play unranked.

Burtnik.5218:

JTGuevara.9018:

Typical. The people that benefited will DEFEND it, the people that did not will OPPOSE it.

Regardless, this is a flaw in design.

But i dont defend it. Its a fact. I was pretty much in winstreak till sapphire tier 3 where hell started and had really terrible teammates till ruby t2. Eventually i carried this kitten out and now im back on my track. If both teams are terrible you should carry it and climp up.. if you cant carry well..

I’m going to say this loud and clear. SKILL DOES NOT MATTER WITH THIS SYSTEM.

No matter how “good” or “bad” you are, the system gives you a false sense of your abilities.

TO THIS DAY, deniers have blown nothing but hot air.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

JTGuevara.9018:

ronpierce.2760:

KreatE.7612:

much skill such balance
This new mmr is HILARIOUS and i’m loving every second of it. ALTHOUGH, I have had to hard carry plenty of games I would have otherwise lost. But still…. the advantage is so ridiculous on average.

S2 is glorious.

Realistically, when everyone is thrown into a single tier at the start, and MMR matches people to others with relatively close skill, AND they are good enough to make the higher tiers, there’s really nothing that should be all that surprising about it. The new MMR isn’t broken, it’s just different, and does close to no hand-holding, which is why you see outliers with huge win steaks and losses, because realistically, that’s feasible until people get to (or are stuck in) an appropriate division. Unfortunately, people don’t understand that on a system that tries to rank people against one another, there are often clear cut losers, and Amber/emerald might actually be where people belong. It sucks, but someone has to be that person. Luckily for them, at least they can grind their way to Sapphire and maybe even Ruby, but that’s leniency on the developer’s part.

Now, before I get hopped all over, I realize there may be a few unluckies who got swept up in a bad chain of events. I’m going to be honest though, and say I can safely assume that isn’t the majority of people upset with Season 2, which in many cases is just a hard wake up call for people who no longer get paired with people intentionally to carry them (Unranked). And then there are those who tanked their MMR in the past, which I can’t really feel sorry for…

Anyways, as it evens out through the divisions, it’s not as bad as people think. The bigger problem seems to be sore losers and what to do with them, along with wonky class Balance which favors a certain few, likely making it easier for them to get their wins.

blah blah blah STOP defending it. NOT EVEN PROFESSIONAL ESL PLAYERS get 40 wins in a row!! 40 wins?! 40 WINS?! Lol and you say it’s not broken, but “different”?!

HA! Oh it’s different alright, broken in different pieces! You DENIERS always amuse me.

You should get that shift/caps lock key checked, seems to be broken

Hit a nerve didn’t I?

ronpierce.2760:

KreatE.7612:

much skill such balance
This new mmr is HILARIOUS and i’m loving every second of it. ALTHOUGH, I have had to hard carry plenty of games I would have otherwise lost. But still…. the advantage is so ridiculous on average.

S2 is glorious.

Realistically, when everyone is thrown into a single tier at the start, and MMR matches people to others with relatively close skill, AND they are good enough to make the higher tiers, there’s really nothing that should be all that surprising about it. The new MMR isn’t broken, it’s just different, and does close to no hand-holding, which is why you see outliers with huge win steaks and losses, because realistically, that’s feasible until people get to (or are stuck in) an appropriate division. Unfortunately, people don’t understand that on a system that tries to rank people against one another, there are often clear cut losers, and Amber/emerald might actually be where people belong. It sucks, but someone has to be that person. Luckily for them, at least they can grind their way to Sapphire and maybe even Ruby, but that’s leniency on the developer’s part.

Now, before I get hopped all over, I realize there may be a few unluckies who got swept up in a bad chain of events. I’m going to be honest though, and say I can safely assume that isn’t the majority of people upset with Season 2, which in many cases is just a hard wake up call for people who no longer get paired with people intentionally to carry them (Unranked). And then there are those who tanked their MMR in the past, which I can’t really feel sorry for…

Anyways, as it evens out through the divisions, it’s not as bad as people think. The bigger problem seems to be sore losers and what to do with them, along with wonky class Balance which favors a certain few, likely making it easier for them to get their wins.

blah blah blah STOP defending it. NOT EVEN PROFESSIONAL ESL PLAYERS get 40 wins in a row!! 40 wins?! 40 WINS?! Lol and you say it’s not broken, but “different”?!

HA! Oh it’s different alright, broken in different pieces! You DENIERS always amuse me.

Stochastic.1398:

Honest question, what’s the point? It’s pretty much useless in PvP. The most recent round of “buffs” is laughable.

The ONLY thing warrior got this season was Mercenary’s amulet, without it we’re USELESS. At least there are thieves/mesmers to share their misery with us.

Kayberz.5346:

EXACTLY. alot of the people complaining fall into one or multiple of these categories.
They dont play to win
Whether its the “pro 1v1er who doesnt understand rotating” , the “im pro at playing warrior/ theif and can compete just fine with them”, or the “we lost mid fight, i give up, team sucks” players, theres always SOMETHING they are doing to cause their poor win rate that they refuse to acknowledge.
The matchmaking isnt perfect, but its definitely not as “rigged” as these mob mentality whiners want to believe

HA! What nonsense! Who said it was “rigged”? We’re saying it’s BADLY DESIGNED.

Veneratio.1980:

I joined. After 4 days of the snowball of hell and being stuck in Sapphire t2. Met 4 guys in exactly the same position. Good players on the wrong side of the mmr coin.

First match. Down 110-20. Lost mid fight to start had home decapped too. WON
Second match. Down 220-150. Won mid but lost home and far. Scattered a bit over the map. Regrouped. WON
Third match. Lead from start to finish. Played as a team and for the first time in days pvp was fun for us all again.

After all being on losing streaks to start those 3 wins gave us all a tier up. Yay!

Now essentially, this was 5 people who didn’t know each other the same as any other pug but the big difference was attitude and communication. When we were losing the was no kittening and finger pointing. Only instruction and positivity. And god those comebacks were sweet.

There is hope yet.

HELL no there is no hope. The system is BADLY designed.

Typical. The people that benefited will DEFEND it, the people that did not will OPPOSE it.

Regardless, this is a flaw in design.

Rieselle.5079:

http://strawpoll.me/6996103

So, originally there was a matchmaking system that tried to equalise teams as much as possible.

If there were 10 players of a wide range of MMR, the system would shuffle everyone between the teams, giving each team some high MMR players and some low players.

Overall, the system kinda achieved its goal – regardless of complaints, the stats said that most people had around 50% win rate. This was just an outcome of the algorithm, it’s not it’s “goal” – it’s not deliberately trying to make you lose after some wins.

Some people complained about this, though. They didn’t like the 50% win rate, and they accused the system of deliberately giving you some bad team mates after a win streak, etc. Personally I find these claims a bit hard to believe, but I don’t have any personal evidence one way or the other so whatever.

So anyways, this season ANet changed the matchmaking to be MMR based for finding teammates, and ladder based for finding opponents.

Some people cling to the old idea that the game gets 10 players and then sorts into teams (accusing the system of sorting the best 5 into one team, and the worst into other, meaning 100% chance of unbalanced matchup), but reading the algorithm I don’t think that’s true.
It finds teams with MMR ratings close to each other, and then finds an opposing near your pip level, also formed with similar MMRs to themselves. So it’s mostly random whether your opponent team has a higher, lower or equal average MMR – the only factor is their pip level.

Anyways, the outcome of this is, high performance teams (I’m deliberately avoiding the word “skill” here – performance is all that matters), will have a higher winrate. But for every winning team, there has to be a losing team. Which means that half of the population will have a winrate above 50%, and the other half will have a winrate below 50%

Logically, it’s impossible to have it both ways – either everyone is 50%, or half the players are above 50% and the other half below 50%.

So, which system do you prefer?
A fair match system, where the outcome is a 50% win rate for everyone?
Or a meritocracy system, where the outcome is that high performance teams will win often, and low performance players will lose a lot?

(Note that I said “performance”, not “skill”. Even Roger Federer would lose, if he plays with a wooden racquet and high heels. And even Michael Jordan would lose, if he chooses his team mates by picking people out of the audience randomly. There’s more to being successful in a game/sport than just what you do inside the match.)

HA! What delusion! When? When? WHEN will you people get it?

THE SYSTEM IS NOT LEGIT.

Despite your raving about “merit”, the system is DESIGNED to boost people at the expense of others, it’s NOT competitive no matter how much you want to delude yourselves that it is.

Those of you that STILL defend this nonsense have either BENEFITED or are DELUDED. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Torafugu.1087:

Zlater.6789:

I’ve really been having really great fun with pvp this season. While I have been losing a lot and winning a bit less, most of my matches are really close and it’s been satisfying. Just don’t be disswayed by the people on these forums or the people in team chat. I usually swap to combat chat unless I’m in a premade because there are a lot of sore losers in the game, and they always seem to be on my team lol.

There is one thing I noticed, the people who complain and moan the loudest are the ones they are complaining about. So be encouraged, and keep fighting, you’ll get there.

A scam takes two person.
Guess which side this one is on …

Ditto.

I know how it is man, I’m still in emerald myself. This matchmaking is from the twilight zone.

Torafugu.1087:

Demandred.7930:

The system is currently in disequilibrium, this will resolve itself over time. After X games, our final division placement should be an accurate reflection of our MMR. That is, most people will get lots of even matches eventually.

It will not. Because people are quitting.
People that got stuck quit, which cause other people to get stuck because there is nobody left they can beat. they quit too. This also apply to queue times, more people quit the longer the queue time and more people quit.
You can already see this happening and the season is pretty much done.

^THIS. The season is done, stick a fork in it. Everyone go play unranked if you want LEGIT competition.

The expansion to me was good, only the pve. I like the semi-challenging environments. What was NOT ok is pvp and wvw. The leagues/balance were a disaster and the new borderlands are not good.

Astralporing.1957:

Darknicrofia.2604:

vulneraria.4865:

yes if you start to lose this system bring you to probably lose more.
every member of team have similar mmr but the system select a random team for the matchmaking.
so if you start to lose mmr you probably lose again and again…till all this team with 0 mmr are left at zero pips, then you will have a fair match, you win (yes 2 pips!) and then at 2 pips you gonna probably lose again
they need to remove random team matchmaking, they need to have similar mrr avarage as possible.

no, that would just go back to the season 1 model of bad players being able to advance to legendary because they’re farming worse players.

That stilll happens. Remember, you don’t need to be good. You need to be good enough (or lucky enough) to be sorted into the better team. And luck seems to be the more important factor here.

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

The gap in your understanding is that you are not always the lower MMR team. The MMR grouping is done by team, but that does not mean that the 2 teams have to have different MMR.

Yes, it is theoretically possible for you to get opponents at your exact mmr range, but let’s look at it more closely. First,the lower mmr in your range you have, the less likely you are to get an enemy at your level or lower – if you are below average, it’s less than 50%, and gets worse from that point down). Second, if you get lucky enough to be assigned opponents of your level, you have ~50% chance to win (and let’s not talk about how it’s entirely possible to lose due to some serious effort in that direction on the part of your teammates). You may of course get even more lucky, and end up fighting against weaker opponents (so, greater chance to win), but the lower you are on MMR, the less likely it is to happen (and the lower the possible advantage).

So, okay, you were lucky enough to win that. Now what? You pray to RNGesus your mmr got up enough that next time you will be in a winning team again, because if not (and you’ll likely still be at way lower than 50% chance to win that second match) you will lose what you just have gained. Again.

In practice, once you got down low enough into the MMR hell hole, the only practically reasonable way to get out of it is to teamQ.

No, waiting till the better players move past you is not an option. You’d still be at the bottom of sorting table.

(Notice, by the way, the one common word here? Yes, it’s not skill, it’s luck. Curiously enough, luck is also something that lets you not get into that situation in the first place.)

haha exactly

Players that GAMED the system teamed up at start, fed on newbies, got their pips so now they think they’re pros. NOW they’re misleading you saying, “wait a few days”, but hey I don’t blame them. They got theirs! I just wish they were honest about it!

choovanski.5462:

JTGuevara.9018:

choovanski.5462:

kdaddy.5431:

If i was to make a tier list it would go

A- necro- rev- scrapper

B-Druid-Ele

C-DH

D- Mesmer

E-Warrior

F- Thief

And unlike pre HOT there are no counter builds. If the players are of equal skill, IMO this is how the fights should go down.

uhhh really.. thief bellow warrior?

regardless, all classes need to be brought to DH level to keep the game sane.

Burn/wildfire warrior with sword/torch + mace/shield is good in teamfights. Plus it totally WRECKS thieves 1v1.

I’ve played the build. it’s deeply mediocre.

anyone can wreck bad thieves with condi. not hard at all.

Not with mercenary’s amulet. If you were assuming I meant viper’s, then YES warrior will get wrecked. Mercenary has toughness/vit which is a must for any warrior even with its base hp.

choovanski.5462:

kdaddy.5431:

If i was to make a tier list it would go

A- necro- rev- scrapper

B-Druid-Ele

C-DH

D- Mesmer

E-Warrior

F- Thief

And unlike pre HOT there are no counter builds. If the players are of equal skill, IMO this is how the fights should go down.

uhhh really.. thief bellow warrior?

regardless, all classes need to be brought to DH level to keep the game sane.

Burn/wildfire warrior with sword/torch + mace/shield is good in teamfights. Plus it totally WRECKS thieves 1v1.

HipposWild.7185:

Remember in season one when all those people were exploiting the system by tanking their mmr or picking up an amber player either on an alt account or just any amber who knew how to use map chat so they could get to legend without actual legend skill? What was ANET’s response? Yeah… Would it have been hard to respond to people asking for the tag along player to be assigned the same rank as the max team member? NO. Did it take till after the season? Sure why not. Did they even do a kittening thing to players who abused the system and made the whole first season meaningless? Ohh yeah of course not. They gave them shinnies.

It’s like when someone collapses your world economy.. and you give them a kitten load of money for it.

Too busy celebrating a successful first season to see if it was actually working I guess. Does anyone expect them to suddenly change this approach?

LOL like the bankers and businessmen during the recession!

Ellie.5913:

THuGaNoMiX.5036:

The only response by a programmer in here just further proves that these guys are not very good at what they do.

Yes they should re hire the people who made the original guild wars then this guild wars might be at least half as fun as that one was

It’s a much different group. This pvp group simply doesn’t know how to design a pvp multiplayer game. The concept is so foreign to them.

VuAnh.8105:

I truly believe season 2 is done for. There is no way to save it, so it is what it is.

Well done ANET!

YUP, stick a fork in season 2, it’s DONE. ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED.

THuGaNoMiX.5036:

The only response by a programmer in here just further proves that these guys are not very good at what they do.

In the end, this system was designed to advance players up the ranks faster, those that supposedly deserve it. It was a good intention with obviously DISASTROUS results!