I too use daggerstrom a lot. It works wonders in Zergs and especially when two theives use it at once. A chunk of the enemy are loaded with bleeds and cripples and on its own it can pump out lots of damage. trait SOM and you get lots of heals. Have a strength sigil or the might on crit food you can gen might stacks. The reflect works great and it the only source of stability.
With the changes the damage it pumps out has also climbed.
It works great in Lords rooms or camps to clear them out quick and the ability to move while using it allows some ability to avoid the champ/supervisor. (Since they are crippled you can move faster than them while spinning)
We do not need even less AOE
Yes and not to forget the whirl finisher ability which lets me heal my allies and poison my foes – I really like it the way it is even though it’s not useful against any enemy that comes along,
Skills that stun break will cancel control effects such as stun. These are often indicated by a “Breaks stun” skill fact on the tooltip. Certain traits will also break stun by granting stability upon being hit by a control effect. Stun breaks work on control effects which last for a duration. Fear is considered a control effect as well as a condition and can be broken.
Hasn’t ever worked for me – try it and look for yourself?
Also, if you’re talking about traits that break fear automatically, the thief has an auto stun breaker trait too (Hard To Catch). And if you prefer the active stun breaker (which I do, as the situation may not be dire enough to warrant breaking fear), you have a few options for the thief: Shadow Step, Haste, Infiltrator’s Signet and Roll For Initiative. And now we have a trait in trickery that makes tricks remove a condition, skills like Haste and Roll For Initiative will also remove a condi as well as stun break.
We have other options, it’s up to you if you want to ignore those options.
Same goes for that – doesn’t work against fear – try it.
Edit: Haven’t tried the trait that might work – but every other skill you mentioned won’t work against fear. (My thieves have got most of them equipped – and I fought Teq a lot)
To the others struggling with fear from Zhaitan. How about you take a stun breaker and learning when and where is best to use it perhaps?
Since when does a stun breaker help against fear?
My warrior has got passive condi removal – or had, haven’t looked into his traits lately. My ele has got passive condi removal (signet). And the only skill I can used when feared is blinding powder – so I can equip everything I like, still I can’t use it.
Daggerstorm: This is an alright skill right now, but really is only useful against ranged foes. It gives stability which is nice, but it’s already reflecting projectiles, and using it in close combat is dubious. I think the CD should be lowered to 75 seconds and the duration shortened to 4 seconds. As a trade off, you no longer just spin around throwing daggers wildly, but you reflect all projectiles and evade all close combat attacks.
I disagree – I’m using daggerstorm for now 1,5 years and I love it. The cooldown is already reduced to 75 sec when using the trickery line – the duration lets me save my buddies in dungeon/fractals/helps against all ranged enemies in wvw – I mow down (before the patch) chunks of the enemy zerg – I don’t want it changed.
The thieves I know which are mostly D/P didn’t take SA before the patch but are taking it now – because it’s “op” in their words – and it’s especially suited for D/P which was one of the easier weaponsets to play anyway.
That’s a hell of a lot work to clear some condis and like I said in another threat – I don’t really want to use any of the availlable tricks to clear the rest of the condis and, like I also said, if they wanted to buff the condi clear they could’ve included a system like boon stealing, but they didn’t.
Sorry, but I don’t believe you – a video would’ve been nice, but I guess that ship has sailed.
Alright, so you had 25 stacks of might when you did that hit but call former SA OP because of the might – and you needed help to land that kind of damage – ok.
I know for what other thieves hit me and that was about as high as my hits – if they were glassy we both hit for 9k, if they weren’t it was about 7-8k. The highest I hit was 14k (one hit without sigil procs) against a ranger who was probably wearing greens. Or had no traits. And that was before might was nerfed.
Well, people ask me for build advise as well – but I don’t feel like a pro because of it.
Thing is, you were probably running in a group and using a full glass signet build – they do more damage and I said so in my first post “I wasn’t specced into very high damage” – I’m a roamer not a spawn camper.
Lets get one thing clear: D/P is something different than D/D. Someone running D/P with 2 in DA and 6 in SA was likely “OP” and sitting in stealth – someone using D/D didn’t have that opportunity. So if you don’t have a guard right next to you who gives you aegis and whatnot, you will have troubles to survive without going 4-6 in SA (before the patch).
If you always have someone who buffs you, it’s easy to go full glass.
I don’t feel I made a mistake if someone catches me off guard – that’s a very usual situation in wvw. And I don’t think I need to punish myself because someone jumped at me by flushing all my defenses down the toilet because some zealot told me to.
If you’re on NA we maybe even fought, I’ve been there the first year I played this game and half a year in wvw. If you’re on EU we might meet some day.
So it’s burst condi or bust. That’s what I’m talking about. I’m not complaining about thieves alone. I’m more concerned about the sad state of affairs regarding the current meta being heavy burst plus the fact that they have stealth which gives them a significant advantage.
For sure let them keep stealth but let’s reign in the condi+damage on everybody so as to avoid everyone going zerk or bust.
Yes, I agree – the patch was a disaster but it was forseeable.
Maybe they nerf it again or maybe they just nerf certain classes but wvw is unplayable right now, no matter with which class. And who knows when it will change again or how long it will take until we get to the nearly “perfect” state the game had before this patch.
Exactly this! Before, you could still counter and MAYBE if you’re good enough you survive and win. Now, whoever bursts first, wins. So it’s basically an initiative fight and stealth offers LOADS of initiative since only the thief can dictate the fight.
You have an invulnerability skill, unlike thieves, use it – or extend your complaint to the state of wvw right now in general as it’s not only thieves who burst.
Thieves are choiceless as well, they need to concentrate on dealing as much damage in a window of a couple of seconds before they re-stealth so as to avoid death. Wait for their cooldowns then burst again dictating the pace of the fight.
Did you know you can hit thieves while they’re stealthed? Did you also know that they have got no reliable condi removal since the patch anymore?
yea I understand the tactic has always been the same etc, there is just no way to even counter it unless you spec fully tank and KNOW the thief is coming… which a smart thief will make sure you don’t see him coming… and if you are anything other then full vit tough heal spec… your just dead… period… POOF dead 1 second later…
so let me recap for you… there I am wandering around looking for the thief. “poof” thief appears next to me, does 18k dmg in less than 1.5 seconds and “poof” back into stealth. I spam everything in gods creation to clear condi, heal and keep from being downed by it, placing 60% of all my utilitys and virtues on a 30+ second cooldown, then 5 seconds later, “poof” thief appears again, bursts another 18k damage and laughs as I lay there a burning/poisoned heap…. this is broken and needs fixed. no one should be able to do 40k burst damage in a total of less than 3 seconds visible time, and another 5 seconds stealthed…
Everybody does an insane amount of damage right now because anet have broken their game. Other than that thieves have always fought like this.
Medi guard is dead – don’t ask me why, I didn’t really listen when my friend who mains medi guard tried to explain it to me. He also part time mains a thief, so I guess he knew what he (tried to) was talking about. I’ll ask him again and listen this time.
Stealth (for thieves) doesn’t last longer, sorry to disappoint you.
Tequatl’s Fear has a huge tell in its five second windup, complete with an NPC calling the incoming attack out. You do know you can just dodge it, right…?
I mean, after you dodge the initial super AoE effect, make sure you’re not standing in front of him where he’s breathing. The Fear will continue to pulse periodically right in front of him, but you’ll be fine to hit him from the side after dodging the start of the attack.
Yes, in a perfect world I have only eyes for the boss, am not out of dodges and I am not rezzing anyone so I can perfectly dodge everything that’s thrown at me.
You yourself said that SA was ridiculously overpowered and that everybody who uses it is a bad thief. And that not only once but everytime someone spoke about it.
SE is already nerfed.
The recent changes are to blame because your screenshot was from someone who was upleveled, had 25 stacks of vulnerability and wore no clothes. The usual backstab was 7,5 k before the patch, maybe 13k if the “victim” was upleveled/had vulnerability, was nearly downed or running an unfortunate build. So, try your backstab under the same conditions now again and then we can talk?
And I actually don’t care what you think makes a bad thief – all other lines had/have way more utility which mostly relied on steal, so all you needed to do and all you need to do right now is to “spam” steal – and I don’t know if that is more skillful.
Also full glass thieves have always been able nearly one shot even tankier builds if they can get the jump on them, so no real change there. I mean prior to the trait changes, I’ve had my full PVT guard get insta-downed by a full glass thief with max stacks and boons because he took me by surprise.
I am a full glass thief and I couldn’t insta down people. But I wasn’t specced to one shot anyway, so in theory it would’ve been possible, the reality was different- you had fights, now it’s just burst burst burst “saw first, hit first = win”.
I’m done with wvw for now.
And that’s why. This is my stab pre-patch.
With baseline toughness going up, it’s actually become more difficult to achieve these types of stabs. Most of mine are falling in the 15k zone, which is around average/low of what I did before the patch.
Frankly, this is a matter of learning skilled play and using better-optimized defenses. With the number of all-in thieves on the rise, I find myself letting them engage and blow cooldowns/initiative and just retaliating and killing them after they’ve burned everything. A lot of thieves appear to be not used to handling builds involving high levels of burst or being hit back without high toughness and SR recovering all of their health.
I find the condi changes much more difficult to deal with just because the pressure from burning is so obscene right now. Full dire guards playing extremely passively/defensively and getting huge constant burning stacks is imho over-difficult to deal with. Everyone should have seen OP engineer coming, and the bugs are not helping either.
I really don’t get what your mission is – destroying thieves, demanding that all defenses they have go down the drain because you redeem it “skilless play”?
It’s great if you were a one trick pony, but most of us weren’t but we can’t do anything else right now, no matter what we do.
And btw I didn’t ask anyone to stand around, eat my 25 stacks of vulnerability and then take a backstab. So I can make a screenshot to show the world how skilled I am.
for all these 3 years condi spec was considered some kind inferior and not suitable for op players. And now I see that condi dmg is too strong. Ofc it’s “too strong” for zerk wars that got used themsekves to reign in game with zerk power crits specs.
Most of us don’t care about PvE and condi has been “OP” for at least one year in pvp and wvw.
I noticed after the patch that I lost about 1k health. Another guildmate of mine mentioned he lost about this much as well between logins. Was there a change to gear or something?
Maybe it’s because of wvw reset (yes wvw is reponsible for your pve health).
You currently don’t level up at this time. However when the expansion starts, those people who bought it and have level 80s will start leveling the Mastery system they have chosen so leveling up will start being worthwhile again.
Initial question was where to get spiritshards from to which I tried to reply – but a discussion about what is and what isn’t level up came between it. There’s no real need to keep that sub discussion alive. And I’d like to have some spiritshards, please. But on the other hand; I knew this would happen.
I’m playing the forgotten build: D/D. And I play the forgotten game mode: wvw.
I really like the idea that I can now finally take the trickery line to have some utility which D/D is missing. I am not happy about the CnD nerf – but that is a bit more complicated as the overall damage right now is that high that I can’t really say the nerf makes a difference. But if the overall damage will be nerfed it probably will.
I don’t think I would be able to survive any of the situations that kill me right now in wvw even if the SA line hadn’t been butchered (condi builds and being outnumbered by one +). I needed the condi removal of whatever condis in stealth, I needed cloaked in shadows and I didn’t need infusion of shadows. The SA line as it currently is might be great for D/P but it isn’t for D/D.
But like I said before: It’s very hard to tell where buffs and nerfs are needed as long as the overall damage output is that insane. We tried to hold a fully sieged T3 bay with 10 against 25 and stood no chance – we couldn’t even get on the walls because everything was plastered with AoE fields, which insta killed us, our siege was destroyed by an AC they built outside – it was hopeless and that shouldn’t be.
So it’s really hard to test anything in wvw right now because the avarage time one stays alive is 15 seconds.
Now were suposed to get shards drop from monsters, but they never stated what monsters can i get it from a level 2 moa? or is it only elites and champions?
I am doing map completion right now and am occassionally in wvw (which was my main mode before this patch) – I think I have completed about 10 maps, I usually kill every mob that’s in my way, and I haven’t gotten a single spirit shard. I got 2 from killing tower lords though (it’s been around 20 I’ve killed). Just to throw in some numbers.
I think I would prefer it if the 5 lines had different colours. Wouldn’t help colourblind people, I know.
But I ran with 2 defensive traitlines (defense is a joke right now anyway) and didn’t notice until I wondered why I had the perks of both traitlines.
It’s all just tiny blood red icons that mean nothing to me.
That hasn’t changed, though it’s worth asking post-patch since they did change it for Mug + Hidden Thief, which used to also Reveal you, but now does not.
But mug is supposed to hit the same moment you steal, when it bugs it hits after you stealth. CnD is an animation. If they had been able to include CnD into not revealing the hidden killer user, they also would’ve been able to fix last refuge as the command for that would’ve been “No reveal for x seconds after using hidden killer”. It’s easier to synchronize hidden killer and mug.
Edit: And come to think of it that would’ve been abused as you could basically backstab endlessly without being revealed.
Play the game and you’ll find that there is no compensation.
The question was where one gets spiritshards from, the answer: from doing all stuff that formerly gave scrolls of knowledge.
Level up is called level up by the game , not by me. So, complain to them about the “technically unjustified name”.
No offense but how should that work? You stealth and hit = you’re revealed.
There has been a bug with mug and hidden killer, but I have never heard of a CnD hidden killer bug – and I don’t think it’s a bug.
Do it like me and don’t use hidden killer, especially not when running D/D.
Mug and Hidden killer currently bugs in (my) wvw as well – and it bugs more often the more wonky your internet connection is. I’m using dagger training instead (how to make a trait viable).
You stated that you could level up by doing anything in the game. That remains true, in the basic sense of what leveling up means.
You can’t level up anymore – it looks as if it is happening, but it isn’t – so you can’t level up after level 80 in this game anymore which was the case prior the latest big patch There is nothing to rephrase – that is the bland truth.
However, I got what you were driving at, in that at 80, once you fill your xp bar you don’t get a point (now a shard) anymore. And I agreed yes, that was changed, and supposedly they compensated for that.
No, they don’t all the did was turning scrolls of knowledge into spiritshards.
Regarding leveling up when already an 80: Technically you didn’t level up anymore prior either. You didn’t go from 80 to 81. Your xp bar just rolled over. Which, my understanding is that it still does, we just don’t get anything for it. Or did they change that and it doesn’t roll anymore?
You are a bit complicated – I guess 99,9% of players would’ve understood what I meant without causing drama.
Edit: And technically it’s still called “Level up” in the game, even after this patch which gives you nothing for a “Level up”.
You can still “level up” doing anything in the game, even after hitting 80.
However, that’s not what you were getting at (you might want to disassociate the two, or rephrase). Yes, you no longer gain a shard when you max out your XP bar after you reach max level. Supposedly, to compensate for that, we’re supposed to be able to loot shards from mobs. I don’t have drop data on that though, and I haven’t had much time to play the last several days. I’m sure some people will get that up on the wiki in due time.
What’s your problem?
You don’t level up anymore (when already level 80)
You only gain spiritshards by doing activities that formerly gave scrolls of knowledge.
So what is it you want me to rephrase or to rethink or whatever?
Actually considering this functionality hasn’t changed, then it wasn’t “play as you like” prior either. The only thing that’s changed is the actual item acquired (and where it’s stored).
No. I could level up by doing anything in game – now I can only obtain shards (former skillpoints) by doing stuff that formerly gave me scrolls of knowledge – so it has changed.
Maybe he spvp alot i remember them droping there fairly often.
Right, scrolls of knowledge were common there.
Still it would be nice if open PvE players had more access to them.
Edit: Oh and wvw players – especially roamers/scouts.Yeah one could level up by caring for camps and stuff, not possible anymore.
I got about 80 in just one day, since they automatically add to you wallet now I can’t be to sure exactly where I got them from. So they seem to be rather easy to get. Just occasionally check your wallet you may be getting them faster than you think.
No, not that easy as you have to kill champs/bosses, you can’t get them otherwise – so it’s not “play as you like” which is what people could do before this patch.
No, they don’t. I haven’t one shot anyone prior this patch and I am not one shotting anyone now.
Eviscerate, clone shatter, killshot – all hit as hard or even harder (depending the circumstances) as a backstab, so it’s not just thieves who deal a huge amount of damage.
I like the layout and that I can see all traits when trying to make a build – I don’t have to click to the left and see what the trait does. Not so sure if I’m that happy about not being able to see the other lines while trying to figure out a build – it isn’t too bad but not really optimal in my book.
And I also like that I have a wvw and pve build.
That being said – 3 options aren’t plenty, so I can see where the concerns are coming from, but what’s even worse is that a lot of these traits are that bad that no one would ever take them, so it’s basically one build per weaponset per class and that is even more limited variety.
The animation changed I think, it’s bolder, but otherwise it’s as awesome as ever. Always looks cute when seeing an opponent thief dancing through our zerg, but when you do it yourself you see what damage you do.
Did I mention it’s my favourite skill? (come on, anet nerf it.you do it with everything I’m calling my favourite!!)
I havn’t been on the game for a while but I can see how the traits would work in a general sense. What thief players are feeling is the result of arenanet smashing thief into putty and remoulding the profession. That’s what happens when broke professions get reworked.
The important thing to remember is that everyone will settle down and a new meta will appear eventually.
I’m unsure about that.
But then again I’m a pessimist.
I totally agree. I want to be able to remove Fear whenever Teq or Jormag uses their breath attacks with Blinding Powder. :/
Really, it seems like an unnecessary nerf.
I’m in with that, I now get feared through all AOE and just die – there’s nothing I can do about it.
Especially if you’re fighting Teq. You’ll be feared into the poison fields and have no way of surviving it. :/
Unless you use Roll For Initiative, Signet of Agility, Infiltrator’s Signet, Shadowstep, Haste and/or the Hard to Catch trait. Apart from those there is nothing you can do.
No, doesn’t work against teq fear. It’s still a condition that would still be on me – and I really couldn’t use any skill during that time (don’t ask me why my panic button (blinding powder) always works).
Using Withdraw with SA seems to work fine so HiS and Acro or s/x should be fine. I can’t help but feel Trickster is not doing enough it’s not supposed to be mixed with SA but rather Acro and s/x builds but it’s not there yet. We do have Agility Signet as well. They should improve tricks or trickster and fix SE cleansing bug. Caltrops and Haste(there is also a trait for it) are tricks as well but they just need to sync better.
My point was that using it (withdraw) with SR is nothing I would want to do, also not daggerstorm in every case and scorpionwire and roll for initiative as all would destroy me being in SR.
Huuhhh apart from the cleansing bug (hopefully it is) the new SE seems justified. Take a look at Acro and SA one is anti movement/weakening conditions while the other helps more with condition damage similar to HiS and Withdraw. For some it is a nerf but it depends on who you fight, just fix the cleansing bug and we will see how this goes. It’s very risky though also Trickster seems a bit lacking in PvP a buff would be appreciated.
Ok, then look at the tricks: withdraw, roll for inititive, daggerstorm, scorpionwire, did I miss something? Withdraw removes 3 preset conditions; all heals pells, except signet of malice do. But otherwise you have to stealth and then use a trick. Which can be quite difficult in combat. And you don’t really want to use any of these tricks while in shadow refuge, so the argument that now trickster and SA can be used is quite wonky as it might look good on paper but in “reality” it’s differently. Not saying thieves are the only ones who have got troubles to get the conditions off but SA has been quite perfect before the patch.
Yes and no, it’s still only one condition removed at a time and they’re all dangerous. They could’ve added a ranking system like boonstealing instead. And I really miss being able to get that fear off me – that was crucial when fighting teq – I can use blinding powder but no other skill, so withdraw, roll for initative and all other tricks don’t work. And since the damage in wvw right now is beyond insane, it’s really hard to test it or better; I don’t have any motivation to try to adjust my gear or anything as it will be nerfed regardless – and honestly, it should. I will try how it works with all the conditions later on in pvp but I honestly don’t think it was a buff.
When things changes, human nature is always trying to resist changes. Because people don’t like to get out of their comfort zone. And these is why people are raging about it.
Ok, you see the conditions at world bosses or whereever – would you like to have these condis used on you?
I don’t think so but it is happening in wvw as wvw has got the same rules like pve, justthat they forget about that game mode most of the time. And that is the issue – I don’t care if you guys melt world bosses in seconds.
That’s a problem for ANET to solve. There are the ones that forgotten about it. Or I should say ANET did not expect it to be this OP in a PvP/WvW environment. My guess is they were to fixated on the PvE side, they forgot about the PvP/WvW side. Let them figure this kitten out.
On the question on the condis used on me. Pre-patch, I also got like 5 to 6 condis hits on my guardian in a split second. I was down before I could do anything. That’s in a zerg vs 2 huge zerg thingy. So, I know about it. Now I can imagine it would take like less than a split second for you to be down before you can even press your first skills. I can imagine that.
Just me saying.
That was my answer to your “people don’t like changes, that’s why they complain” – I complain because the game just isn’t fun like this. I know that condis already were “OP” but anet obviously didn’t, so let’s buff condis, no matter what.
When things changes, human nature is always trying to resist changes. Because people don’t like to get out of their comfort zone. And these is why people are raging about it.
Ok, you see the conditions at world bosses or whereever – would you like to have these condis used on you?
I don’t think so but it is happening in wvw as wvw has got the same rules like pve, justthat they forget about that game mode most of the time. And that is the issue – I don’t care if you guys melt world bosses in seconds.
Yeah, cause there’s plenty of condi removals, right? And anet didn’t just nerf condi removal either – it’s so easy to counter conditions and already has been before this patch.
Come on, be realistic.
I’m sorry, I hate to be negative but I don’t like the new Lion’s arch at all. The old one was intricate and interesting. This looks like, well, boring. I was expecting so much much more. I mean, sincere disappointment.
Which one is your old one? The original or the destroyed?
I miss the original one but it was kind of very dark, so maybe I miss it because of other reasons than its architecture. The new LA is nice. Very big and I kind of like to have another armor repair quaggan a bit closer to the MF. Otherwise I’m good. Still will miss the old times ;)
