Guild Wars 2

I agree with the OP.

Well written Gromit.

FogLeg.9354:

I play in EU server and I never seen or heard anyone lagging around oasis event. I admit, there just is not many people doing it, as the BL maps are really empty. So it could be an issue for full map. But if the cause of lag would be event itself, you would start to lag even when you are alone in the area.

No I think the event is the lag/crash/freeze tipping point. Add any significant blob to the mix and you crash no matter WHERE you are on map. Only happens when the event is live. Fine otherwise.

Oh shush you. People are happy with this.

Bonk.

Eh I usually do it to myself as I’m manically typing out scout reports, lol.

Nate.3927:

I lag and crash for a lot of reason, but never because/around the oasis event. Is this possibly an issue with the EU servers?

It could be me in NA playing EU, but aside from an issue two years ago, I haven’t really had lag issues. The map itself is fine when the event happens, but if I go fight and there’s more than 30 people, I lag, freeze, then crash. And it seems t only happen when the event launches, so I just avoid fights. But never had that problem prior, so I can only assume the two are connected.

misterdevious.6482:

I solo’d the laser, and went and looked and the fortified keep gates were about 70% (I didn’t look before I did the laser). Previously they would go down to just over 50%

Then I went to our home BL and the fortified gates on a keep were all about 70% and each required 160 supply (11 supply runs of 15) to fix completely. Previously, laser damage required 220 supply (15 supply runs of 15).

Seems like it is working…

I haven’t had a chance to login since the patch. This makes me very happy! Thank you! Xox

It lags out our entire map when it starts up, unfortunately.

Very happy too. Feels like we are being heard.

Now if only they nerfed the laser …..

Tspatula.9086:

ArchonWing.9480:

…
The main purpose of that post in context as it were seem to me and bolded by me, would be the suggestion that people have been either, not on a server long enough, or not been on it recently enough to give an accurate description of the server itself. And furthermore, I don’t think bandwagoning is the sole reason either.

Well, I only noticed this today, I guess someone necroed the thread. As to the “other forums” I read them regularly for entertainment and/or rumors, but they really don’t represent any particular servers players or culture, so people should be warned in my opinion.

I’ve been on about seven different servers on both NA and EU. While NA tends to be over-the-top on that forum, what seemed to hold true was the loud-mouths on that forum were equally loud in map chat.

I suggested people visit it, to at least understand a server’s culture.

Sich.7103:

Jayne.9251:

People stacked to the top servers not because of the fights, per se, but because more numbers = easier stomp.

I don’t agree with that….
More people on server is more people at off peak time…

I think you’re forgetting what it was like fighting the old SFR.

No skill per se, (no offense SFR), just lots and lots of bodies to throw into the fight.

More people on the server doesn’t mean more people during off time. That’s a bit silly. People play when they have time to play — off-peak or prime.

snarfrificus.4230:

Jayne.9251:

Eh, I don’t mind the new map, I’m getting used to it. But I really do not like that center event — it does indeed lag out the entire map, causing crashes.

I’d be happy if they removed it.

Even if they remove it they are not able to fix the lag with it, i mean blob vs blob still brings massive lag.
So they need to fix the lag and that is a very difficult issue.

There is lag involved with blobs, but I can only go by what I experience on my end and know that every time that event pops up my computer crashes if I get near a big group while it’s running. And I never had that issue encountering big fights/blobs before.

Others have complained of similar experience.

I think every server in EU has had a bandwagoning phase .. where the regulars just sit tight, hold their breath, and wait for them to move on to the next flavour of the week

When they land en masse though, gosh, it’s just chaos for a while.

Eh, I don’t mind the new map, I’m getting used to it. But I really do not like that center event — it does indeed lag out the entire map, causing crashes.

I’d be happy if they removed it.

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

I think it is fairly selfish of non-T1 players to demand that players that don’t want to be on their server/tier must stay there.

People stacked to the top servers not because of the fights, per se, but because more numbers = easier stomp.

It meant that the matches stagnated with the same three servers fighting the same three servers every week. And even people in Tier 1 came to the forums to complain about that.

Because of the pillaging of lower-tier servers for active players, that meant it impacted ALL the tiers below Tier 1 to the point where their matches stagnated as well.

WvW was never meant to be a stale, rinse, repeat match up each week. It was meant to be guilds and players pushing up individual servers and fighting competitively for top spot. The intention was that those positions would CHANGE periodically.

Tier one guilds went down to lower-tiered servers and actively recruited more bodies to fill the gaping maw that is Tier 1. Repeatedly. Leaving the pillaged server empty and unable to compete with even the servers in its tier.

You don’t need full map queues to get good fights. Map queues only indicate that your server is unbalanced because those waiting in queue are not actively in your map helping you win. They’re waiting in queues.

To not see how that impacts other servers beyond Tier One is the selfish deed really.

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Really? The player base created this problem with constant band wagoning and gaming the system to stack. I’m not going to say that the system anet set up was perfect but most of the problems came from players.

What exactly is wrong with stacking? It means we get some decent fights, unlike now.

Right now I logon we have no commanders and no one to fight. This is in Tier 1.

I’d actually really love some guilds stacking in T1 right about now.

If JQ/BG/YB get too full and we end up with 45 minute queues then people will start transferring off.

Queues make the player populations becomes self organising, not arbitrary “Full” designations.

Do guilds stacking onto Tier 1 servers impact play at Tier 2 levels? Is that what you’re concerned about?

No guilds/players stacking into tier one affects EVERY server, except tier one.

It no longer is a game of skill, but simply numbers.

Games stagnate when players don’t improve and grow.

There’s a certain reticence with Tier one servers to see beyond their own tier.

And no, queues did not make players “self-regulate.”

coglin.1867:

Dawdler.8521:

Catalin.5341:

I don’t really understand why scouts think auto-upgrades and no supply needed for them are a bad thing.

Because auto-upgrades give them no reason to be at a keep/tower/camp other than to cap it.

Yes, its as simple as that. It doesnt really have to do with scouts. It has to do with players having the very basic reason for being in WvW.

When you remove that you get a game that’s playing itself.

In my opinion, anyone who thought upgrading keeps was even in the top 3 things a scout needed to do, is terrible at it.

Naw, if it was used strategically, it was an essential part of being a good scout.

Got home last night and saw the news.

Completely gutted.

Prayers for France.

Y’know, I try to find something to like in everyone’s post, but all of your suggestions are detrimental to wvw and run contrary to a lot of existing requests.

They seem like they’d fit pvp well though.

Lol, Elona came in this morning before I had a chance to set up and took garri

I say good for them!

Yeah perhaps it’s because everything’s new that we still have to catch up on the offensive side. I guess time will tell.

P.S. I think I know how BB did that … good for them for figuring it out.

Just bumping this as forum suggestion that actually kind of materialized in the form of our new map sentries.

Didn’t get the binoculars per se, but certainly something similar.

Wanted to drop off a short thank you because this issue seems to be resolved in the new map.

I guess time will tell if they find another way around it. But thank you for the work done to try to fix this.

Bury Your Deadgreen.2368:

Jayne.9251:

Bury Your Deadgreen.2368:

Shake it off bud… Or better yet if you have a spare char slot make a level 1 toon with starter gear and stick to them like glue… I have done this before for its like a whole nother game mode… They will switch off YOUR bl and then you can hop back on your preferred toon and enjoy… PS turn off your chat if you do that and go offline.

You’re probably the reason why the OP got his head bit off.

Have some respect, both ways.

“I don’t always troll.. But when I do its because someone pushed me to do it..”
I am a wvw only player and am in a wvw guild… With the influx of new players coming in these days. People need to check their elitist attitudes at the door and try to be inclusive and bring these new folks just trying out the game mode for the first time up to speed…. Telling someone to leave a map because your guild thinks its their map is cause for someone like me with to much spare time to help them leave…

Please see my first post in this thread. Someone tells me to leave a map? Haha, I tell them to kitten off.

I’m just saying your method just prolongs the acrimony, and may actually increase it. Letting innocents get caught in the backlash because of it.

It has nothing to do with elitism, that’s your word. It has everything to do with respect.

Sich.7103:

The good thing with alliance is that you can choose your ally….
You know… Those supply troll…. Those one who made anet completly kill our supply and upgrade system… With guild alliance system you can just kick them out…
The 3 faction way, where you can’t choose your ally is a real issue…. And CU or ESO have the same issue…
And this remove a big part of diplomacy… (3 factions way).

A good guild alliance system could be interesting.

This would probably work fine in EU. Not so much in NA.

Anything that gives players the ability to kick will be trolled, sadly.

Bury Your Deadgreen.2368:

Shake it off bud… Or better yet if you have a spare char slot make a level 1 toon with starter gear and stick to them like glue… I have done this before for its like a whole nother game mode… They will switch off YOUR bl and then you can hop back on your preferred toon and enjoy… PS turn off your chat if you do that and go offline.

You’re probably the reason why the OP got his head bit off.

Have some respect, both ways.

I still want a giant 100- floor tower that you have to fight up the stairs to conquer in mid map. Lord on top.

I’m discovering some really sweet siege placements that holds off blobs.

Navigation I’m still learning, but I see tons of open space for brawls, tons of strategic choke points, tons of new puzzles to figure out.

Couple that with time to actually respond to sword call outs, I think they addressed a good number of defenders wish lists.

For fights, go explore, tons of cool open spaces, especially upper bay sand dunes to scrap it out. Towers and keeps require a bit of strategy to flip. I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

Straegen.2938:

Jayne.9251:

And you are welcome to argue (on behalf of the “vast majority”) with the multiple people in this thread, besides me, who have pointed out problems with this plan.

Every issue brought up has been addressed save one… players that don’t want to align to a guild alliance. Oddly in the current server system those players are aligned… to a server instead of an alliance. I cannot understand why this particular point is a sticking point. Logically it makes no sense.

There are reams of posts addressing the many flaws with a server v server system here and on other forums. The server system is a massively flawed design that has outlived its usefulness. That said if you have a better idea, I am listening.

This will be my last post, because it’s clear we both have very different viewpoints on how systems should work, and that’s fine. It’s part of dialogue.

The issue I have with alliances is that it allows players to decide.

Players, historically in this game, have not exactly been responsible when it comes to gameplay.

Historically anything that can be gamed, will be gamed. Alliances would be a game-feast for such types. There would be groups purposefully keeping others out. There would be groups who band together to just stomp anything weaker.

You talk about server stacking? Alliances would basically create an a la carte menu for this.

And people would just stop playing if they couldn’t get into the “right” alliance. So even the stronger alliances would get bored and stop playing too.

The server method at least makes gamers jump through hoops to manipulate.

So yes, it’s fine if we don’t agree. I am just not a fan of the alliance system because of the potential to create a bad playscape for people.

They can tell you to switch maps, and you can tell them to kitten off.

That said, I understand both sides of the fence. Guild groups want to run their raids without add ons to test their weakest players and make adjustments. Usually they’re tagged up so its easy to avoid them. Some players will politely be asked to leave and just ignore those requests, so it tends to lead to terse interaction over time.

My best advice is to get a tag yourself and run havoc colour, so that others, like you on the map can coordinate and let the guilds do what they seek.

It’s a respect thing. It should certainly go both ways. But everyone is entitled to play any map they want.

gennyt.3428:

Jayne.9251:

gennyt.3428:

Or they could individually align their small/personal bank guild with all these other people they claim to enjoy playing with and still do the exact same things instead of jumping in and getting a random assignment and being upset about that? Large team conquest being fitted around people who want to play alone seems counterproductive.

Those lone players tend to be your server’s backbone. And they’re not playing alone, they’re working as part of a team, without the guild tag. Most who do defense know this. It isn’t the guilds defending — and the guilds that do are very rare.

…

Of all the servers I’ve played on, I’ve seen very few tagless players in WvWvW, friend or foe, much less actual scouts/defenders. Those guys were not popping +5 supply buffs out of thin air.

Every blob busting guild I know of, will come defend if there is a fight to be had (including the one I’m in) and then there are the PPT guilds who do build defensive siege and do their thing. Solo PPT players are part of a team, sure, but saying the lone wolf types who aren’t in any guild whatsoever are somehow the backbone of a server is a bit of a stretch, if not a bit disingenuous.

Not at all. Who are the ones calling out the attacks so that the guilds can respond.

They may have a guild tag, but usually they’re in a solo or two-person guild. This is the same in NA as it is in EU.

gennyt.3428:

Or they could individually align their small/personal bank guild with all these other people they claim to enjoy playing with and still do the exact same things instead of jumping in and getting a random assignment and being upset about that? Large team conquest being fitted around people who want to play alone seems counterproductive.

Those lone players tend to be your server’s backbone. And they’re not playing alone, they’re working as part of a team, without the guild tag. Most who do defense know this. It isn’t the guilds defending — and the guilds that do are very rare.

Straegen.2938:

You are obviously welcome to cling to the old structure that is sucking the life out of WvW. For the vast majority of players, a Guild Alliance system will be better

And you are welcome to argue (on behalf of the “vast majority”) with the multiple people in this thread, besides me, who have pointed out problems with this plan.

Killacam.2064:

Jayne.9251:

Haha, I don’t even know where those nodes are.

Ok if you guys feel it’s fine, then I shall remain my mighty team of one. You shall not pass!

The nodes are next to the gate you should be defending with that treb.

I’ll assume that was sarcasm!

Haha no. I guess I don’t pay attention to that stuff.

Ok Phantom, now I feel better. Thank you

Swagger.1459:

Shadow.3475:

Dont get why you want rewards, for me its enough off a reward to kill enemy players, manage to defend building against bigger number off attackers and so on, the problem as it is now it’s even worse than it was on old map for defending.

Rewards provide more incentive and draw people in like lemmings…

.. and then the inevitable map spam cries for ktrain …

Straegen.2938:

Jayne.9251:

So the people who are the backbone of the server, the ones that usually keep up the scouting and sieging (and in the past upgrades) would arbitrarily be placed into a map “where needed”?

Only if the player chooses to remain unaligned. Most likely, defensive minded players would be highly sought after by guild alliances to join them. I would expect some guild alliances paying defensive guilds/players to join them. Nothing about a guild alliance system prevents players from doing what they like to do.

Not sure what is funny about that but whatever floats your boat.

Jayne.9251:

You’re basically saying their job is to fill in the holes. That’s not a good thing.

Players that choose to remain unaligned will be slotted into whichever matchups need them. These players would effectively be mercenaries and most likely players just looking for a good fight but again that is a choice. Players that want to defend an alliance would join one.

Here’s why I don’t join guilds: universal cooperation.

I like running independently of all guilds, so, in effect, I can help ALL guilds. Without any so-called “political” alignment, I am able to talk with every guild on server, not get caught up in the drama, and maximize my usefulness to all involved.

The alliance system, even though you may enjoy it, will cause nothing but drama. We’ve seen in the past that anything put into the hands of players will be gamed or twisted for someone’s personal agenda or enjoyment. Imagine wanting to play in a certain alliance, and being told “sorry, full” after you’ve had some stupid fight. So you either sit out a week, or you make nice. Meh. That leads to all kinds of ridiculous online megalomania. We’ve seen some prime examples of that without the alliance system. It’s just harder to game with a server system vs alliance system.

There will be a million threads similar to “he won’t let me play with them” on the forum and I hate seeing anyone left out. It’s a game. We all paid for it. We all deserve to play how we want.

The server system is pragmatic. And objective. The alliance system would be completely subjective.

I realize the alliance system would be more like a fantasy football league thing, but I do feel it has the very real ability to leave large (independent) sections of loyal WvWers out in the cold.

Sich.7103:

No, it’s not possible to push back 30+ guy with only 1 defenser… You can slow them down yes, but not push them back… Unless they want to run back…
.

Sich, lol, I swear.

Two times yesterday, massive Elona blob at gate with five rams. Me on treb at garri. They got the gate to 40% before I killed all the rams, and cowed them so they had no supply. After that they gave up and went to a tower instead.

With just me and one other person inside

I would NEVER ask them to reduce HP on gates and walls, I think that’s a fantastic change. I’m just saying it might be necessary to look at treb damage as a result of the HP change.

Haha, I don’t even know where those nodes are.

Ok if you guys feel it’s fine, then I shall remain my mighty team of one. You shall not pass!

So Mr. Kuru, you’re saying I should delight, with glee, my ability to solo hold off a 30- blob?

Jana it my guilt complex. If it’s easy for me to do alone, it feels unfair.

But my much-beloved trebs need a bit of an adjustment.

For anyone who actually plays the new map as defense, you’ll quickly learn that white swords does not equal lost tower or keep. In fact it means you still have several minutes to respond because the wall and gate hp has been significanly increased.

For defenders, especially smaller crews, this is fantastic, and I truly hope they keep it this way.

However, and this is the part I feel slightly guilty about, if you spend any time defending, you also know, if you’re a good scout, that if you get there early enough, a single regular treb can keep out a 30-man zerg with five rams at the gate. So, in effect, a handful of defenders can thwart a big blob.

I LOVE this. No longer is it “white swords!” and the tower is gone a second later. But I feel guilty and don’t think it’s fair that one person, in effect, can hold off 30.

Treb damage needs to be toned down a bit. It should certainly be a viable defense if gotten to early, but it shouldn’t be able to fully stop a massive blob like it does now.

And I love my trebs. But I’m also interested in fair play.

morrolan.9608:

Jayne.9251:

Nope. Hate it.

It would mean that new people coming into the map are left out. It would force people to join guilds if you want to compete.

No it doesn’t. There are proposals around that deal with this issue.

Care to outline them then?

Feeling kind of grateful for my server and Elona this week then, after reading these posts. We had four guilds out on home BL tonight and two big Elona guilds too. Even AR made an appearance with 30 later in the night.

Map is still a learning curve for me, but starting to figure out shortcuts.

Straegen.2938:

Jayne.9251:

It would mean that new people coming into the map are left out. It would force people to join guilds if you want to compete. Some of us enjoy our solo gigs and are still helpful to a map.

In this system, players that are guild-less would be slotted into a matchup that could most use their support. Unaligned guilds and players would be the mortar in the foundation of balanced play.

lol. worse.

So the people who are the backbone of the server, the ones that usually keep up the scouting and sieging (and in the past upgrades) would arbitrarily be placed into a map “where needed”?

I’m guessing you don’t do a lot of defense. There’s a network of solo or small guild players that basically shore up defense for a server … at least that’s how it’s been for most servers I’ve been on in NA and EU.

You’re basically saying their job is to fill in the holes.

That’s not a good thing.

That means that the defense team that’s used to playing together and working together as a team would be split up wherever they “fit”.

Yes ofc they could make a guild, but most people who play solo don’t want to be in a guild in the first place.

Your idea would completely eliminate your defense team.

Nope. Hate it.

It would mean that new people coming into the map are left out. It would force people to join guilds if you want to compete. Some of us enjoy our solo gigs and are still helpful to a map.

Alliances would also lead to fights between guilds as one group shuns another. It just means more drama.

If WvW went EoTM (as an alliance form), it would mean overflow maps and difficulty getting your guild/regular defense team onto the same map every day — at the very least it would be a pain in the butt.

So nope. No thank you.

I’m a fan of having a server identity, creating a functioning team that you can rely on, and not having to be guilded to do it. If you enjoy guilds as a playstyle, you already have the extra benefit of a hall that is out of reach of the smaller guilds.

This is exceptionally well written and well thought out. I do indeed hope Anet reads it all. I agree with everything in the OP.

Are you not starting to see folks trickling back on SFR?

We were empty for a bit, but are now starting to see guild groups return and enemy blobs. Heck, even AR made an appearance yesterday

I think it’s starting to ease back, at least I hope so.

Dawdler.8521:

It would be nice to at least see some kind of action plan, no matter how small. Throw us a bone. Give us hope. Look through the road ahead for 2015 and do a search for “WvW”. Guess what you find? One single instance. And its not even about WvW!

I would actually love to see a schedule, and I’m pretty sure they have one, but the minute they post anything, it becomes locked in concrete — first the OMG THIS WILL NEVER WORK (before I even tried it) posts, then if they miss a deadline .. well, you know.

I DO get that people who love this game mode can get an idea if something will work or not, but there’s almost an instant (and stubborn) NO to anything new. I mean look at the freakout over the stealth fountain in SM, and now we get live and we learn it will take forever for any guild to upgrade to get that (and isn’t worth it really).

In a perfect adult world, they could release a schedule of proposed changes, have some dialogue about it (where they listen too and not just stubbornly plow ahead — that’s something I’d love to see changed a bit, a bit more flexibility rather than after-the-fact reaction), so that, in effect, the changes aren’t so traumatizing to this particular community who loathes change. But wants change. But doesn’t want change.

styx.7294:

No, none of this.

Stacking servers, people fed up with being ignored and lousy service, that’s all responses to incentives. The game rewards people for zerging, it rewards for transferring to higher tiers (at least it now locks them out of full servers). That’s the thing ArenaNet built. We’re all just playing the game as it is.

Oh c’mon now. Have a bit of accountability.

That’s like blaming McDonald’s for gaining weight.

I’ve heard Engineers are amazing for roaming now, but have yet to test it out.

And wonder how the new revenants are for roaming too.

PariahX.6970:

By the way Janye, did you know your inbox is full?

Yes, I have some cherished memories that I can’t bear to delete from there lol. So I’m full.

My in game email should be ok tho

We are starting to see a trickle in of bodies on Tier 4 EU matches.

Yesterday we had two Elona blobs (about 30ish each) on home BL leading up to and including prime time, and we had three guild groups there responding. We aren’t seeing much of Augury yet though.

It’s slowly coming back to life for us at least. Hope you start to see the same as well.

Dawdler.8521:

Zephyra.4709:

Maybe the devs are hiding from the WvW forums due to the intense backlash, verbally abusive, extreme saltiness and nasty, unhelpful, non-constructive feedback players seem to be giving them.

Which would be mostly due to the game-breaking destruction of the gameplay mode we all love and unhelpful, non-constructive silence of developer neglect.

People will always complain about how something isnt perfect according to them, but at least developers should strive to always improve their game overall. WvW is not better now than it was a month ago. Quite the opposite. The new map is broken, the autoupgrades is a failure and the cost for guild upgrades in WvW is absolutely ridiculous.

The problem is, there’s some very vocal regulars (myself included, you too), who ask for changes — in fact, there are some guilds who band together to spam a topic nonstop in order to garner attention to a change/fix/suggestion. Social engineering for change.

Anet implemented some of these suggestions in the past, and then there was an equally loud backlash over the change. There’s a lot of gaming going on sadly.

Some have tried to readdress how they post and tone down the vitriol, I’ve seen it happen, but for each of those folks trying, there’s 10 who are just yelling nonstop.

So my best guess is that they make a change, and then sit back a couple months to see how the change is used/affected — since responding quickly and making changes in year 1 here saw massive reaction. In fact, you know WvWers, any change elicits the same kind of crazed reaction. And for us here, usually one change is forgotten about the minute something else takes its place as the target of rant. ADHD

And given this mode of play has been manipulated by personal agendas in the past — (see guilds spamming one topic nonstop, gaming the server rankings, gaming the population caps, etc …) — they have to err on the more conservative side for responses/reactions now.

Heck, they had to implement changes to stop stacking servers because the players wouldn’t do it themselves (some still don’t want to, lol) — so in effect, Anet has to act like parents.

I suppose they can update this forum in parental mode — and just tell everyone they’re grounded

Teevell.1684:

Jayne.9251:

Grim West.3194:

Can’t have a war if there is nobody to fight.

There’s enough of a core wvw playerbase that it doesn’t need to be incentivized.

Nobody who loves this game mode cares much about the loot or they’d have quit years ago.

Big shiny rewards draw players focused on the loot train, with very little desire to learn map mechanics, team cooperation or community support. So they blob and never improve, because why would they if the loot keeps rolling in.

That, in itself, leads to the deterioration of the game mode.

It’s not just the lack of rewards, but the lack of rewards as compared to other modes. Those who love PvE never have to leave that game mode to get pretty much everything in the game. Those who love sPvP never really have to leave HOTM either, they have access to pretty much everything save crafting tables. And those are just a quick portal to Lions Arch away. The other game modes allow for people to play those game modes exclusively with ease and receive comparable rewards.

WvW on the other hand…not so much. Those who play WvW don’t want free loot to rain down on their heads, they just want something comparable to the other modes. They want to feel like they have everything, or nearly everything, they need without having to leave WvW to go PvE farm things.

The problem isn’t the rewards per se, but rather the impact (cause and effect) it would have on Wvw itself.

I have no issue with folks new to wvw who are curious and want to learn. Heck my server used to have scouting/siege frdays and zerg Tuesday’s, where kind folks donated time to help teach. Those are the folks I’d love to see in wvw. The ones that don’t need the shiny to try it out. Those guys become part of the team.

The rest? Not so much.

I know a lot of you want free easy walking Lootbags, but how much fun is it for them too?

Here you go:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/They-haven-t-forgotten-wvw-it-seems/first#post5709457