Guild Wars 2

So, with Spellbreaker looking more and more like a really strong pvp elite or if it is good for pve its still power based (currently) and I really enjoy condi for some silly reason what are peoples thought about Renegade being a viable raid build?
As many have said finally Mallayx gets some support with Renegade looking very condi friendly and all.
But…..does it bring anything else? That’s the kicker really. Right now with cPS I do decent condi dps but more importantly I bring the might and such. So even if War did go all power those boons are still needed and does any of the new elites bring anything to the table? My Rev was my first raid toon and it would be really sweet if it does become a thing…or even a bit of a thing.
Any theorycrafters feel free to speculate away, as that’s all we can do til the expac drops. Next weekend will give us a nice taste but just curious as to what people’s thoughts are thus far in regards to the new elite. On paper it looks great, or I could be way off. Still fun to give a guess though!

Being in Australia on an MMO sadly sucks bigtime. I also run at that ping and therefore I wont ever hit qT’s benchmarks and raids at times can be a lag nightmare. But overall its doable, and its still fun, so we stick it out. Comes down to personal choice I reckon…are you willing to put up with it?

Near.7439:

What role do you guys think the Weaver will play? I keep hearing the word “Bruiser” but I don’t know if that means it has just enough defense to stay in the front line and take that high risk/high reward dps role or if it’s just another PvP oriented spec.

Gut feeling and going off what ANET has done in past its most likely to be a big hitting dps build again. Not sure about its pvp slot but it looks to be a beast for pve…again. :P

Rev was one of my first raid toons til the nerf bat hit at the knee….
I for one am hoping Renegade just might play out now as a viable condi raid build since Spellbreaker is all power. Just nice to have both covered and my Rev was fun as hell at one time! Here’s hoping!!

ShadowBane.5036:

Just some addition to what the guy said above:

I cannot stress this enough if you’re looking to enjoy your time raiding and minimize raid fiestas, look for a training/raid guild in your time zone that’ll help you get into static teams.

That right there is the key to your success and enjoyment of raids in this game. As mentioned pugs are good learning but a thick skin is recommended. or……..
Chill out, play the beta both weekends and in a months its all gonna be shaken up and we will be starting all over again! Good times!

CptAurellian.9537:

Joxer.6024:

But then the trend I did see and really felt this week raiding is us being responsible for our own boons.

I don’t see that happening at all. There will be some more flexibility for the means of boon generation, but I’m 100% sure that we will still have certain classes who are responsible for might/quickness for the whole group.

You reckon they will still try and keep it group wide and such? If that’s the case then would be nice to see all boons/buffs be able to go to 10 people. But you touched on a point I missed and was trying to make, the means of which we generate the boons, that “feels” like it being whittled down to be your own responsibility. Take condi duration for example…..I know have to try and get 100% on my own whereas before Chronos helped heaps.
But what I think I am really bummed about is the new Warrior elite not looking like it will be any good for raids in terms of bringing decent condi dps. Again, way to soon to say for sure and all but man it really is looking that way. Now I am all in if we are still in it as the might bots and such, and with maybe daggers adding to that, that would be sweet!

Ok, I think I have a feeling as to where ANET is heading with PoF and raid builds. From the checking of the “new” elites Spellbreaker looks pretty much pure power as I didn’t see a single condi trait in the build, but dagger does have some nice might gen so maybe? Firebrand and Renegade look to be the new kids on the block in terms of condi heavy armor class, and they bring some might gen and alac as well.
I didn’t really get into the others as I tend to play heavy armor classes mostly (or have been, who knows?) but from the talk around Mesmer and Ele will be dps and Engi as well?
But then the trend I did see and really felt this week raiding is us being responsible for our own boons. No longer will Mesmers have to be solely the “boon bot”, they may actually be able to do some decent dps?
Again, all of this is purely my opinion based on what I read about all the new elites. I really was hoping that Spellbreaker would be great for raids but its starting to not look that way. But that’s ok if something like Guard or Rev can step up to the plate in terms of condi and such. Guard looks to be the frontrunner with more burns and bleeds but you never can tell. Then again is condi going to be a thing with the new raids? Who knows? And it will be fun to see how these new builds play out in our current raids.
Granted, I could be completely off base here and we really wont know until PoF drops and we all get stuck in and play it. Still, its fun to guess and speculate and theroycraft and all, just as long as no one takes me serious, its ALL subject to change and final release…and then change again…lol.
Each class bringing more to the table than just dps or boons might be heaps of fun and a new challenge for us all!

Forget everything you know about raiding in WOW. I too come from that very same place, although not top world I don’t think but we were up there and a serious bunch most times, so yea.
This game first doesn’t use tanks like WOW, there is no blocking and aggro mechanic in the sense that know. Aggro here is obtained by having the highest toughness and at the moment some light armor classes do the tanking very well due partly to the evades they have and such. This game is a DODGING game for sure, you do it a lot. Also, boss fights “most times” find the whole team stacked on the boss for most the fight.
Some do have kiting and such (VG, etc.) and you team makeup is very different from WOW as well.
You still have healers although most classes are expected to watch their own rearends during a fight. Dps is spilt with support and just good ol “pew-pewing”.
Your tank wont do any tank swaps or use skills to aggro and you cant pull aggro as a dps or heals like WOW, only if your toughness is higher than that of the said “tank” will you aggro.
The fights themselves are very mechanics heavy, where missing one simple one can and will wipe a raid team. But, that said people are doing full clears of 13 bosses in like 3 hours…whereas in WOW I can recall spending 2-3 days a week trying to get 3-4 bosses down. You don’t have heaps of trash mobs like WOW….there is some but not on every fight. many of the boss fights are akin to the ol Patchwork fight from Naxx.
Now, in saying all of that, the raids are fun! Its a huge learning curve (well, was for me, 8 yrs tanking was hard to lose) but once you get it down its really a nice challenge and also nice to have something different from the grind that was WOW raiding. I suggest you look at lots of youtubes, and there are plenty, in regards to the fights and such. Also here on the forums are tips for what class is viable and such. qT has a website with most the go to raiding builds for every class along with which one is best for which boss.
Get a Guild for sure, as the LFG/LFR system here is nothing like Blizzard’s and people tend to be a bit harsh.
You will hear talk of the “meta”, and that’s just GW2 version of gearscore really. Its a compilation of what builds work for what class in what content at the moment, and that moment can change big time like it just has with a new patch that dropped.
But POF promises to be something newer and it looks great! Dive in, don’t be afraid to ask questions and be prepared to run several classes if you want to really delve into raiding. You can stick with one for sure, and I encourage you to play firstmost what you enjoy, then go from there.
Again, this baby aint WOW but that’s not a bad thing…just a fresh and welcomed (most times, lol) change!
Welcome, and enjoy!!!

Back in vanilla WOW there were a few raid bosses that required Mages/Warlocks to tank and boy did they use to freak out….lol!!
But yea, ANET is trying to stay away from the old school Trinity but I don’t think you can ever really do that, just change up what class plays what role, and they are doing ok with it.

You just figured it out silly!!! Using def sounds like a solid choice.

Toeofdoom.6152:

If you are running the previous qt build try this as a stopgap:
Sinister ring to viper = about 4%
Furious tuning Crystal over toxic = about 4%
Switch to the new arms minor trait that converts precision to expertise = about 9%

No permanent changes and should get you back to about 90/95% for now

Yup, did just that and it works…for now.

Le Paladin ESQ.5278:

Vitali.5039:

Justice Is Blind: This trait now grants you light aura when you activate Virtue of Justice, in addition to its previous effects.

Retribution: This trait now grants Ferocity while you have retaliation, in addition to its previous effect.

Symbolic Avenger: This trait now converts 13% of your Toughness into Power, in addition to its previous effect.

Radiant Retaliation: This trait has been reworked and renamed Righteous Instincts. Righteous Instincts increases your chance to critically strike and grants 1 stack of might for 6 seconds every second while you have retaliation.

Perfect Inscriptions: This no longer grants light aura but instead shares the passive effects of the activated signets with your allies.

Great times for PvE radiance DH with Bane Signet, Signet of Wrath and Procession of Blades!

This is what I’m running now, I got put into the “condi” party and popping wrath on CD Is a huge bonus to their dps while still pulling 32k+. Life’s good

What build you using? Sounds like its pretty decent!

Any builds? being told Hammer Guard now the go to so am keen so what they are on about?

Sartharina.3542:

Considering what made Berzerker functional in a PvE environment just got removed from the game… I think Spellbreaker will definitely have a shot at having a role in PvE. If it doesn’t, Warrior won’t.

Oh please no….have spent so much time “getting gud” at my Warrior would cry a river if it became obsolete. Then again, maybe I could go back to my Engi? lol, yea, right.

hang on to them if you don’t want DD.

Sartharina.3542:

So why do they continue to options to core players and make them more reliant on the elites? Or, in the case of Warrior, make the class reliant on the elite, then nerf that into oblivion.

yea, lucky I play Condi PS and the hit to the elite isn’t as bad, but man they all but killed power sadly. It does seem like a power play to force the new builds but then I guess that’s the point of making them?

Well said mate. Hopefully most take it on the chin and have fun, it is a game after all.

Vennyhedgie.5369:

Joxer.6024:

There is this hopefully so it might actually be viable, we shall see!

“Vennyhedgie.5369
I can still see Spellbreaker being used in PvE. Magebane Tether alone is already insanely overpowered might generation. Dagger has might on auto, trait that increases crit dmg by 14% on boonless foes (which is 99% of all current pve), dagger 3 and 4 provide some interesting timing gameplay, and sun and moon trait offer sustain similar to thief’s invigorating strikes.
If Magebane Teather works the way it reads and I’m not interpreting it wrong, you basically don’t even need extra boon duration for might generation anymore”

Wow Joxer, I was literaly just about to copy paste this from the other thread, thanks a lot for stealing it >:C

But yeah, that

When its good its good…best form of flattery…..

There is this hopefully so it might actually be viable, we shall see!

“Vennyhedgie.5369
I can still see Spellbreaker being used in PvE. Magebane Tether alone is already insanely overpowered might generation. Dagger has might on auto, trait that increases crit dmg by 14% on boonless foes (which is 99% of all current pve), dagger 3 and 4 provide some interesting timing gameplay, and sun and moon trait offer sustain similar to thief’s invigorating strikes.
If Magebane Teather works the way it reads and I’m not interpreting it wrong, you basically don’t even need extra boon duration for might generation anymore”

Just the title asks, what’s people thoughts thus far with the new elite and raid viability? Sadly it looks like Spellbreaker is going to be a strong pvp build so I am looking at what other classes might be of value to raids/pve.
Yea, its really too soon to tell but speculating is always fun and fills the gap til we know. Just curious as to what you think.

PunkMaster.4235:

Joxer.6024:

So from the looks of things is my viper set going to obsolete? Coming from a strictly pve point of view and of course using the new elite, seems to be a power build, or am I seeing it wrong?

I dont think so since the current build will still be great for PvE content (with whatever changes come with the core update). What I will be doing is keep my Vipers, then grab some zerker exotics for testing the new elite in PvE and WvW.

yea, good plan! reckon I will too as I am really keen to give dagger a go, looks fun!! Really hope its viable with raids and pve but we shall see!

Vinceman.4572:

Joxer.6024:

I asked this in the Warrior thread but am also curious from a raiding point of view so will post here as well:

“So from the looks of things is my viper set(i.e. Condi PS) going to obsolete? Coming from a strictly pve point of view and of course using the new elite, seems to be a power build, or am I seeing it wrong?”

Maybe you wait until the final release of the expac and even then you don’t know about the nerf or buff hammer some weeks later.
I’d rather recommend you to farm gold and be ready to craft a new gear when it comes to the actual benchmarks.

yea, good thinking! better to be ready for whatever may come down the pipe. cheers!

I asked this in the Warrior thread but am also curious from a raiding point of view so will post here as well:

“So from the looks of things is my viper set(i.e. Condi PS) going to obsolete? Coming from a strictly pve point of view and of course using the new elite, seems to be a power build, or am I seeing it wrong?”

So from the looks of things is my viper set going to obsolete? Coming from a strictly pve point of view and of course using the new elite, seems to be a power build, or am I seeing it wrong?

Valik Shin.9027:

Joxer.6024:

You all reckon this new elite more pvp/wvw based or can you see it viable for raids?

Unless new raid bosses are set up very differently than the current one is see this is pretty much a PvP spec

Bummer for me but from what I have read its a much needed thing if it mostly pvp/wvw, so that’s fine. Fair is fair. Someone might be able to make a raid build from it, who knows!

Let us get settled in, learn the new builds and what works for what game mode, etc. , then they can bring on the raids and junk!!!

maddoctor.2738:

I think another question about elite specs and raids is how the meta of the Heart of Thorns raids will change after the expansion, and how the Heart of Thorns elite specs will be required for the Path of Fire raids.

Since Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire are standalone, it means we’ll get to the point that players will be excluded from raid runs when they don’t have the “appropriate” expansion. This means that the new elite specs should contain specs similar to the old ones in some professions, otherwise it makes old expansions mandatory for Raids.

Imagine raiding without a Chronomancer or a Druid.

That’s a very good point! If a Mesmer wants to raid but doesn’t have HOT, and thus no Chrono, are they screwed? Hmmm…..this shall be interesting indeed!

Well sadly? it looks like the new Spellbreaker is going to be a strong go’er for pvp/wvw but not so much in raids. Power based from the tooltips, which is ok but rip my viper set but still no issue swapping if there is a viable raid build with the new Elite. Also, just made Rodgort so rip that as well if I use the new one…lol, figures.
But if cPS is dead Mirage on the other looks hopeful. Again, it can all change with release so will just have to chill for a couple months and see what plays out. Rev may be another but me thinks its gonna be heals, giving Druids a break I guess.
All in all just nice that some options may be available for other builds/classes and we can say screw the “meta” and run what is fun and works!
Spellbreaker “looks” awesome and I really hope its not mostly pvp but if so those that play pvp have waited for something else so fair call.

" costumer " = customer…..just sayin.

No code, no email, no nothing except cc has been charged for both the wife’s and my upgrades. Anyone else still no goodies?

Same issue…ticket in, nothing yet.

That would be nice, I just stay condi for now but be nice to have a good power spec. Also, I wonder this….
You all reckon this new elite more pvp/wvw based or can you see it viable for raids?

You all reckon this new elite more pvp/wvw based or can you see it viable for raids?

NikeEU.7690:

The important thing to remember is qt uses golem numbers for benchmarks. If you look at their weekly kill videos on their channels you can see the actual boss dps in each encounter. Obviously numbers will be far higher than pug groups due to better strats and buffing but you can get a reasonable idea.

Also a few weeks ago LOD posted their spreadsheet for dps on each boss so you can see their data too.

Thanks for that Nike! I will take at look at them!

vaxjani.9073:

It really depends on the buff uptimes, chrono invuls, other people’s dps etc.

Some rough numbers (for pugs) although that i would consider okay (boss dps on every boss according to ArcDPS and not cleave):
VG: 10k+
Gorseval: 12k+
Sabetha: 14k+
Sloth: 11k+
Matthias: 10k+
KC: 11k+
Xera: 10k+ (w/o porting, tho i dont rly watch xera logs, so might be different)
Cairn: 15k+ (if not getting agony)
Mursaat: 20k+
Samarog: 8k+
Deimos: 9k+ (with everyone staying mid, tank at side), 11k+ if you can stay melee

Again this is for pugs and even with them you can do more dps than these numbers.

And yes you should bother checking your dps (and might uptime), you are there to drop banners, give might (mostly passively) and dps as much as you can, you dont really have any other things to do.

THANKS heaps for that! just the info I was looking for as I am well within those “benchmarks” for sure! And yea, I check my might uptime and such as like you say, I am there to provide the buffs to help and then dps my butt off best I can. But now I don’t feel as much a waste of pixels and have targets to try and get higher than! Cheers!

Dang….88 look ins and not a single thought. Ah well, thought it might have been a lame question to ask but never hurts to try I reckon. Thanks anyways all!

Yes, Mesmer/Chrono dps does suck kittens but the class itself is fun! Not sure what the hassle with clones and such as I find your weapon skills pop those automatically, do they not? Also, in open world/map compl I don’t bother shattering, just let hold them aggro as you down from a safe distance and move on, they wont hate you for it!
Of course your Ele kills faster, that’s what they are made for really, and they do it well. But for something fun and different Mesmer is just that. I have soloed many a HP in the jungle on Mesmer just fine even though it took a year to do it.
So yea, I suggest just run the best dps spec that Fay or someone elese has posted in here and go nuts!
Just don’t look at the class as being an Ele and you be right!

I currently “main” a condi PS Warrior in our raid team and was wondering what people felt was a decent number for cPS dps? I have been to QT’s site of course and follow the build and I do pretty well having hit 22k on some fights (Gors, MO, etc.) and most times hover around the 15-17k marks although I have dipped into the scary 10k and under realm a few times (Samarog fight, just hate his ass as he is always moving around facing different directions so makes it hard to nail any rotations) But, is that enough? Somehow I can’t help but think I suck in terms of dps but then I have to remind myself that I am there mostly for what I bring, the banners and such.
Should my focus be on staying alive (well duh, that’s a given, but yea) and am I ok to “accept” my fate as not being the big hitter? Others (cPS) can and have done quite a bit more than me but I chalk that up to lag and playstyle mostly as I still tend to be a clicker, although I am getting better. 10 years of WOW as a tank so yea, this game is a whole different ballgame when it comes to playstyle.
So basically I am just asking what others feel is a good spot for a condi PS to be in a raid, not taking the benchmarks into play as we all know an actual Boss fight is a hugely different beast. Am I ok with the numbers I am getting or should I even bother checking my dps as its not all about that with my role? Or, am I sucking big time and should I step up my game and “get gud”….. lol?
Thanks all…any help/suggestions/etc. will be most appreciated and applied if possible!

What about targeting macros? Targeting in this game is really bad and having a key press with say /target Shadow Soul would be very very handy in raids. Am forever still hitting KC or Gors or whatever when it needs to be the add at that time. WOW had “multi” macros, where you could put say 3-4 skills on one key and yea, I can see that maybe being a bad thing but something to target with would be nice.

“I heard the same and that it was eventually morphed into a more traditional dps spec but who knows at this point. I just want a dps elite. :-|”

That would be cool!

Good point. yea, I see what you mean in terms of the dps ramp-up needed being an actual thing but it sure would blow if other classes became the “new” chrono, so to speak. Be nice to see if that did happen that maybe ANET spread the love, i.e support classes can bring ANY support. Being a cPS in our raids currently I am constantly being told that I cant die else the dps of the whole team fails. That’s a lot of pressure!!! So having another class be able to pick up the slack if that did happen would be cool (Chrono) but then again why add yet another thing for Chrono to worry about?
And yea, axe sounds fun, and I can do without top dps if what I am playing is fun!

Anyone see any hope for Chrono/Mesmer dps with the new expansion? I have seen the “leaks” in regards to axe, which sounds fun but not really so much if the class itself doesn’t get some kind of love in the way of PVE dps increase.
Anyone have any rumors/clues/thoughts as to if this might actually happen or will Mesmer/Chrono be forever the support class?

NikeEU.7690:

Berserk mode lasts 15 seconds. Regardless of anything. Whatever you think you’re observing is all in your mind.

Yes, exactly, and you cant change the cd’s of that skill, I know that. What I am referring to/asking about is the amount of adrenaline one can create within that 15 sec window, that’s all. In certain fights. encounters it seems to me I can sometimes get more, thus the reference to crit and all.

Astralporing.1957:

Incidentally, most (possibly all, but can’t remember at the moment) of my VG kills included at least one guardian. And the last balance patch didn’t change it in the slightest.

Find a better group (yes, i do realize that it sounds much easier than it actually is – finding a decent group is likely the hardest part of the raid difficulty after all).

Same, DH is very handy and dps is on par with others. And the 2nd paragraph about groups is spot on! That truly is the hardest part. Find a good (hell just friendly, good comes naturally)group and your raid will be heaps fun!

Only thing that would be nice is the actual progression, as in W1 is entry and in order to do W2 you need to have cleared 1, and so on.
Also, its almost to the point now where why do raids at all? You don’t get “better” gear unless you are on the legendary journey. I do kinda miss where with each raid (wing) you needed drops from those Bosses in order to improve your toon to step up your game and be ready to progress on to the next wing. I get that I am basically talking WOW raids here so that really isn’t an option but I tend to agree that making each new raid/wing actually harder would be good and perhaps having something of better use drop…weapons maybe, I dunno? It just kinda sucks that I have drops from the bosses sitting in my bank as I don’t need them, no upgrade so to speak. But as someone mentioned maybe (hopefully) the new elites or whatever will bring something different and not break what is current.

Huskyboy.1053:

Separately, the amount of time you spend in berserk isn’t dependent on adrenaline, it’s the same length no matter what.

Actually, for me, its not. So is that perhaps due to lag (go-go Australian net) or something else like me failing at rotations because I definitely have more in open world.
I get that the actual time for “berserk mode” is set but the number of Scorched Earths you can get off is based on how much adrenaline I can generate. Also my question comes from me being told that adrenaline can build faster with crits…wrong info maybe?

Ok, this may be a really stupid question but still learning Warrior here and all the in’s and out’s, so feel free to correct or flame.
With a condi war, my adrenaline is based off crits, correct? I have noticed that in open world random killings my berserk lasts longer due to more adrenaline, due to hitting multiple mobs and crit’ing more, or I was told.
Now, in a raid of course not always heaps of adds, mostly Boss burn time. But I due struggle keeping up my berserk for more than 5 SE’s. So, question is wouldn’t it be “better” to have more crit (be it food, gear, etc.) so that I can have more adrenaline and thus longer berserk mode and therefore better dps?
Maybe this is something a lot of do now and I just haven’t caught on but at the moment am following QT’s build advice with gear and runes and sigils and such. I think its 2 pieces of Sinister…can’t remember just now.
Anyways, just a thought as am always looking to try and make my dps a tad better even though I am looked at as a support and basically just need to not die…lol. Cheers!

TexZero.7910:

How are you going to sort players in this game with no specific “roles” ?
How are you going to determine experience ?

I have in my head a few ways to solve the second, and that is to add a private (player only side) kill tracker per boss. However, this comes with a major problem. You’d only find groups in LFG with similar kill totals to your own. Meaning, nothing changes for the new people as they’d never find groups. Additionally, having a kill total doesn’t mean you’re experienced on the class/role you’re in LFG for.

So now we arrive at the real problem, how do new players learn the raid ?
The same way everyone else did. Group with new players and fail together. Failing is part of the learning process.

Yup, that’s how LFR killed raids in WOW (for the most part). The "system’ put you together based on gear score, and guess what…people could cheese their gear scores with lower raids, the LFR version of a heroic raid, buying it, etc. Now, put these people together for an actually raid,but hardly any experience in said fight and you get fail, every time. Just made it so that if you didn’t have a guild you simply stayed away from doing the actual raids, and only did the watered down lesser ones, which got old fast.

Vinceman.4572:

Yeah, I call the “DPS meter create an even more toxic environment” a myth by those who fear to get kicked due to abysmal dps. Let’s be real, I pugged a lot since the usage of meters has been allowed and I’ve yet to see a group that kicks players with at least decent dps numbers. I suck at tempest (I’m often #4 in terms of dps from 4 slots) and still pugged successfully while nobody mentioned anything. A solid rotation with missing things here and there is not hard and won’t be any issue to the usual pug. And most of the groups also know that missing dps can be a mistake of warriors, chronos and druids as well + failing of mechanics by others.
The only kicks I have seen and those were justified when I encountered warriors doing 2k dps. That’s literally pressing autoattack and nothing else. Or tempests below 10k dps with horrible gear sets and no clue how to handle their class.

In my daily T4 today I met a power phalanx strength warrior that died (not downstate, complete death) more than 5 times. He was getting carried so hard I haven’t seen for months and when I gave him the advice that it is not the best thing to go ps warrior melee in fractals without excellent knowledge he just answered with and I quote: “This game is about play how you want.” No sign of regret or thankfulness that he got a free T4 fractal reward, not a single notice of being deadweight for the group which he was so heavily. That makes me sad and this is the attitude that makes players setting up requirements to ensure that those people do not get a free ride or prevent the own group from being successful.

Just ouch. Now I can say first hand I have sucked as cPS but never have I hit under 12k dps, ever. to me 12k is embarrassing enough but if I keep up the might and such it doesn’t sting as bad. And as mentioned I have 17 fps and 300 ping, so yea, I can see your point for sure on those calls. That Warrior in the fract was sadly just one of the few (I hope) that think they don’t need to try. Sorry folks, you do need to show some effort when playing with others. If you want the whole “I play what I want” experience, enjoy running solo.

@ OnizukaBR.8537 and Vinceman..

Don’t get me wrong, I do agree with what you say in that dps meters can be a good thing. I myself ask our raid leader each week for the “numbers” so I can have a look at my boons uptime and all that. I’m condi PS so outright dps isn’t that important to me as is keeping up the might stacks and such. But when I see 18k + in a fight it does make me happy as I am improving.
Sadly I have seen PUG leaders have a go at someone who wasn’t bad, but was just lower than “the benchmark” and he got flamed and then kicked. That’s where they don’t shine but I reckon its not fair to blame the tool as its the person who did the action.
So yea, used correctly and in a positive way the meters area great “tool”, and should stay as such, a tool, something to help a raid.