Guild Wars 2

somewhatobsessed.6309:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

But it pretty harmful having rewards which take 2 years to grind out awarded freely to those who happen to play the game mode for years

I addressed this in a comment yesterday. It’s no different than retroactively issuing AP rewards to players who had already reached the appropriate milestones. We’re not getting anything for free. Everyone who ranks above you in WvW has already invested time and effort into the game mode. We’ve known for at least a year now that they were working on a new reward system, and it was pretty obvious that ranks would likely play some role in that system. You had your chance to get ahead and you blew it.

If you’re actually struggling to rank up and make progress on Blackgate, of all servers, you might consider that WvW simply isn’t the game mode for you.

Ok well then by that logic. I have been playing pve for 5 years w/7k hours. I dunno how that should be tracked or rewarded but it should be. I am just starting out in fractals I do not have the legendary fractal back piece.

But since i played in pve for 7k hours I should get that 4-5x as fast as someone who did not play pve, even though we are both starting out in fractals and on the same page. And we run fractals the same amount in the same party together. But yah I should get it at least 40-50 days before the wvwer does. Yah thats now how it works though….

Also the legendary backpiece should be locked behind 2k hours of pve game time. So even if the wvwer obtains enough items to get it, they simply cannot buy the final component to complete it unless they pve for 2k hours.

oh wait…. thats now how any of that works! is ittt???

Firebaall.5127:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Im completely 100% fine w/ 1st place getting 3 pips, 2nd getting 2 and 3rd getting 1, im talking about pips awarded due to rank. and how there is no mechanic in game which gives bonuses for doing “nothing” due to having high play time, both concurrently or previously. (exept new wvw pip system/rewards)

happy?

And so simply belonging to a top scoring world is ok in your eyes? That’s exactly in the same boat as “do nothing” in terms of rank reward. You’re a spamming hypocrite.

Ok if u think population is a huge issue and u want to change the subject of my thread from focusing on pips rewarded via rank, to which server is 1st, 2nd or 3rd and whether they should get pips and how many.

My opinion – no i dont think they should get more rewards for winning since population inbalance is rampant. If it was balanced then sure. It’s a nice idea and they are trying to make it so that people who cap a ton or win zerg vs zerg tends to win the weekly matchup. But when you throw in 2v1 collusion between servers and the fact that larger servers field zergs 24/7 then yah its not fair. so then make everyone get 2 pips for each tick as a baseline just for playing and problem solved.

Firebaall.5127:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Im completely 100% fine w/ 1st place getting 3 pips, 2nd getting 2 and 3rd getting 1, im talking about pips awarded due to rank. and how there is no mechanic in game which gives bonuses for doing “nothing” due to having high play time, both concurrently or previously. (exept new wvw pip system/rewards)

happy?

And so simply belonging to a top scoring world is ok in your eyes? That’s exactly in the same boat as “do nothing” in terms of rank reward. You’re a spamming hypocrite.

populaion balance is a different issue. Not my fault that other worlds have it better. Yes I think higher skilled players need to be rewarded. If your going to make it so that everyone gets rewarded due to time spent in game mode specific content, then they need to add that for spvp and pve, Or remove it from wvw.

I dont know how skill based rewards should be determined, or how they should balance server population or fix things like 2v1’s. But it pretty harmful having rewards which take 2 years to grind out awarded freely to those who happen to play the game mode for years, and its gross that they require a 20-40 hr grind a week in wvw to hit ticket cap for those not of high wvw rank, especially when no other content in the game except for the new wvw rank/reward system functions like this.

Chaba.5410:

I think you really should take your case up in the sPvP forum. Look at this problem of not everyone getting same pips! And those bonus pips for Platinum and Legendary division players ooooo boy!!!

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_League#Rewards

“To complete a tier, one needs to earn 20 to 30 pips depending on the track. Pips are earned by winning and losing matches and earning top stats. Winning a match will award 10 pips, losing a match will award 3 pips, and earning any amount of top stats will earn 1 pip. Being in the Platinum division will also award you with 2 extra pips after each game and being in the Legendary division will award you 4.”

so is there armor gated behind rank 80? that rank 1 people cannot buy? If i have rank 80 do i get more pips for being rank 80? because thats representative of play time?

I would be fine with a system which awards winners of weekly wvw matchups or people who win zerg vs zerg with extra pips, in comparission because at least that is somewhat based on skill. So yes extra pips for being diamond or legend rank in spvp, seems justified.

not to mention in pve there is no such system as rank. Only masteries which to be honest are a complete joke to earn in comparission and they bar you from doing very little if you do not have them.

Chaba.5410:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Everyone should get the same pips for playing in wvw.

….

I’m aware of the ticket cap, you didnt address any of my logic, and basically just said if I dont like it, don’t do it.

My point is that its discouraging and disadvantageous to newer players in terms of time, whereas other game mode specific content is not.

You didn’t have any logic because you didn’t ask why first place gets three pips but third place gets only one while proclaiming that everyone should get same pips. No one should take you seriously with such a disingenuous OP.

Im completely 100% fine w/ 1st place getting 3 pips, 2nd getting 2 and 3rd getting 1, im talking about pips awarded due to rank. and how there is no mechanic in game which gives bonuses for doing “nothing” due to having high play time, both concurrently or previously. (exept new wvw pip system/rewards)

happy?

Chaba.5410:

It’s pretty great to have some guy named “The Complainer” spam all the threads just for the sake of arguing. Really helps out with convincing everyone of the validity of his arguments. /sarcasm

only my arguments are valid, if an in game name dissuades you then how shallow is that?

Strider Pj.2193:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Strider Pj.2193:

The complainer(and yes that is his name on BG) won’t admit that players of the same rank, and playing in the same BL, with the same server, get the same number of PiPs. Just because effort was put in earlier, does not mean that the effort isn’t the same.

Keep the PIP system the same.

Oh really, so If i play spvp, and I’m rank 80 because I put in so many hours, and your rank 1 cuz you don’t play spvp. I should technically get my legendary backpiece 4-5x quicker then you right (and I mean quicker as in i get 3-4x the amount of rewards then you do for doing the same thing you are)? Oh waitttttt thats not how that works right…… even though i put all that effort in prior right?

I think you are confused. This is the WvW forum? Maybe you should try to post that in the PvP forum.

Do you need the link?

No not confused, read my OP and the title of the thread. No other mechanic in game caters to entitled wvwers as the wvw rank system does, In terms of locked rewards or faster rewards due to high ranks.

Strider Pj.2193:

The complainer(and yes that is his name on BG) won’t admit that players of the same rank, and playing in the same BL, with the same server, get the same number of PiPs. Just because effort was put in earlier, does not mean that the effort isn’t the same.

Keep the PIP system the same.

Oh really, so If i play spvp, and I’m rank 80 because I put in so many hours, and your rank 1 cuz you don’t play spvp. I should technically get my legendary backpiece 4-5x quicker then you right (and I mean quicker as in i get 3-4x the amount of rewards then you do for doing the same thing you are)? Oh waitttttt thats not how that works right…… even though i put all that effort in prior right?

Seems like a true dedicated wvwer to me

SkyFallsInThunder.8257:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Everyone should get the same pips for playing in wvw.

Wrong. People who are not participating or are doing so poorly should get less rewards. Veterans will always do better than newer players, for the same reason an experienced soldier with deployment, specialisations and training, will do better in war then a recruit fresh out of boot camp.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

You don’t get legendary armor or legendary fractal back piece faster because you have been playing pve for 5 years.

Wrong. You get them a hell of a lot faster than new players because of various reasons, but mostly because you have the resources to craft them fast and the expertise to do the content faster and better than people who do not have your experience.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

You don’t get the legendary spvp back piece faster because you are rank 80 and played spvp for 5 years.

Wrong. Having played a lot of pvp and therefore being better at PvP means more wins, which means getting it literally faster.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Sure hope they add exclusive stuff for “veteran” spvpers and pvers. But I bet they won’t.

Ahahahahahahaha, are you for real?! This game has been 95% PvE oriented since launch, almost everything in it is pve exclusive.

It is your entitlement that is the problem here, son.

Sorry wvw has hard-coded mechanics which allows veterans to obtain items which are gated behind tons of hours played. No such thing in any other game mode.

It also allows wvw players to hit the weekly ticket cap faster simply due to high rank. No such system exists in any other game mode. Saying you deserve it and that it’s justified is the definition of entitlement. Complaining about it like I am, does not equal entitlement.

A new player could use their credit card and obtain just as many “resources” as a veteran player in 5 minutes. I’m talking about an actual mechanic thats coded in which prevents acquisition of rewards and allows rewards to be achieved faster. No such mechanic exists anywhere else in game.

ALso just because pve has a lot of rewards, has nothing to do with my argument, so whats your point.

You also shoot yourself in the foot with your own argument. If i play “well” in pve or spvp I might get stuff “faster” or more of it because I win a lot. In wvw You could suck royally and yet if you are rank 2k you literally will get more stuff (rewards which virtually cannot be obtained, independent and regardless of personal skill level which is your argument) and get said rewards literally faster then any other player, regardless of what any other player “does” or how “well” they play.

Serenity.6135:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Serenity.6135:

Each player is limited per week in how many tickets they can get, therefore ranks are irrelevant as a rank 1 player can still get the same amount of tickets per week as someone with rank 9k. There are different ways to increase the amount of pips you can get, ranks are only a part of it and it is to reward players who have stuck with the game mode that for years was never as rewarding as pvp or pve.

The rewards are meant to be a longterm goal which is why there is a weekly limit. It is not meant to be farmed in a few days or weeks so people will get bored and leave.

If you dont like it, dont do it, simple as that. There are other ways of acquiring gear. None of the rewards are closed off to you if you actually want to work for them. Any player with a high rank had to earn them, it did not just magically happen and yet you seem to act like you are entitled to everything right away. How about you stop making thread after thread complaining about how this or that is not fair simply because it’s harder for you.

I’m aware of the ticket cap, you didnt address any of my logic, and basically just said if I dont like it, don’t do it.

My point is that its discouraging and puts newer players at a time disadvantage whereas other content does not.

There is no “logic”, its just complaining. Stop acting as if you are some champion for new players, we have seen your other threads. It is just constant complaining with an attitude of self entitlement. We get it, you want it easier and you think its unfair that they rewarded players who actually cared about WvW and not you.

hah acting like you deserve something over other players for (insert any reason here) is entitlement.

Serenity.6135:

Each player is limited per week in how many tickets they can get, therefore ranks are irrelevant as a rank 1 player can still get the same amount of tickets per week as someone with rank 9k. There are different ways to increase the amount of pips you can get, ranks are only a part of it and it is to reward players who have stuck with the game mode that for years was never as rewarding as pvp or pve.

The rewards are meant to be a longterm goal which is why there is a weekly limit. It is not meant to be farmed in a few days or weeks so people will get bored and leave.

If you dont like it, dont do it, simple as that. There are other ways of acquiring gear. None of the rewards are closed off to you if you actually want to work for them. Any player with a high rank had to earn them, it did not just magically happen and yet you seem to act like you are entitled to everything right away. How about you stop making thread after thread complaining about how this or that is not fair simply because it’s harder for you.

I’m aware of the ticket cap, you didnt address any of my logic, and basically just said if I dont like it, don’t do it.

My point is that its discouraging and disadvantageous to newer players in terms of time, whereas other game mode specific content is not.

Everyone should get the same pips for playing in wvw.

You don’t get legendary armor or legendary fractal back piece faster because you have been playing pve for 5 years.

You don’t get the legendary spvp back piece faster because you are rank 80 and played spvp for 5 years.

So why do veteran wvw players, get anything faster? Why do they get exclusive armor that only they can obtain because of high ranks? Nothing else is gated behind high ranks. Entitlement.

Sure hope they add exclusive stuff for “veteran” spvpers and pvers. But I bet they won’t.

Currently, if you take armor with zerker stats (power + precision + ferocity) you are doing max power damage. If you take condition damage and expertise, you are doing damage on par with zerker stats (maybe more considering current food options). This allows condi users to take other beneficial stats like vitality or toughness, which makes them overall better, instead of needing precision or ferocity like power builds.

solution:
Lower the overall tick damage of conditions (bleeds, burning, poison). Allow condition ticks to critically hit. Allow those critical hits to be affected by precision (% chance of it to occur) and ferocity (how much the crit is amplified).

make a new armor set which does (condition primary, precision, ferocity)

Balance it so that a person wearing full zerker armor (power, Precision, ferocity) outputs the same amount of dps as the new armor set (condition damage, precision, ferocity).

Have condition duration (expertise) only affect impairing effects or debuffs (ie freeze duration, crippled duration, stun duration), but not damage over time (poison, bleed, burning). Increase base duration of all damage over time conditions to a set amount so it is comparable to the dps of a full zerker build.

Then balance food for condition and power users so they are roughly the same.

Everyone should get the same pips for playing in wvw.

You don’t get legendary armor or legendary fractal back piece faster because you have been playing pve for 5 years.

You don’t get the legendary spvp back piece faster because you are rank 80 and played spvp for 5 years.

I find it amusing reading how defensive and entitled wvwers are. They say they “deserve” these awards. I’m sorry you don’t deserve anything over anyone else who bought this game. I also love how when people complain about the rewards they become exclusionary and say “this reward isn’t meant for you” and at the same time they say “I wish more people would play wvw.”

On one hand they say they play the game mode to enjoy it and that people who want rewards are “doing it wrong” then they immediately complain that they should be rewarded more. Isn’t the joy and privileged of playing wvw “reward” enough?

You cant argue both positions, being exclusionary to others and using rewards to justify others exclusion all while asking for more rewards, and then complain that you want to include others and that others should be content with just playing the game mode and receiving no rewards and that rewards aren’t the goal.

Wvwers seem very entitled all I keep reading is that they deserve this. Tell me then if we go into raids together to get legendary armor, do I get it 4xs faster then you? If not then why not? I have thousands of hours more in that game mode then you do.

Swagger.1459:

WvW… 4 months of grinding for 1 legendary back item.

PvE… 4 months of grinding raids for 1 set of legendary armor.

Balance…

Only if you are brand new to wvw prepare for 700 hrs to 30 hrs to hit weekly ticket cap depending on your server and once the loyalty pip has kicked in. (There’s only 168 hrs in a week). Unless u grind for months to rank up just to have it go up by 1 pip. Dunno why players would applaud such a grind.

atticus.5284:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

I’m getting 4 pips every 5 min, at this rate I have to play wvw for 30 hrs to hit the ticket cap per week. It’s a little ridiculous for new or even average players of wvw. (Even worse if your server comes in 3rd).

This is what has led to afk pip farming and frankly I don’t blame them. Apparently wvw is the new grindfest of the game.

Here’s the thing – the pip system is meant to reward loyal and enduring WvW players. The goal is to get permanent players. It’s not meant for those who want to “jump in…get reward” then jump out. If you want it, you will need to become a dedicated WvW’er and put WvW into your play rotation for the foreseeable future.

You can have it, it’s a grind and I’m not interested, this has dissuaded me more then it has motivated me.

I’m getting 4 pips every 5 min, at this rate I have to play wvw for 30 hrs to hit the ticket cap per week. It’s a little ridiculous for new or even average players of wvw. (Even worse if your server comes in 3rd).

This is what has led to afk pip farming and frankly I don’t blame them. Apparently wvw is the new grindfest of the game.

somewhatobsessed.6309:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

I’d be fine with them lowering it to anything around r 1000. Either make the first piece cost r 500 and have the t3 chest be 1000, or have them all be r 1000 or have it scale from r 1000 – 1500.

If they are going to leave it at r 2000 I wish Anet would say so. I also think If it stays at r 2000 that it should be legendary.

If a requirement of 1000-1500 is acceptable to you, what’s another 500 ranks? To most of us who play primarily in WvW, 500 ranks is not an issue. I’ve earned around that much in the past year alone, and that’s with month-long breaks where I only logged into the game for dailies.

In your first post, I noticed that your current rank was below 400, yet ranks have been in the game since early 2013 (you can still read the blog post introducing the system here). That’s fewer than 100 ranks per year since the system was released! You also said you’ve played between 360-500 hours of WvW since the game launched, which comes to approximately 2 hours of WvW per week (only ~30 minutes of WvW per day), and that’s being generous. I don’t mean to demean you in any way, but to reinforce my earlier point: if the T3 reward seems out of reach to you given your normal playstyle, it’s because you are not the target audience for this particular reward. It’s that simple.

I agree that the T3 should have been legendary, but I can understand why they chose not to go that route at this time. I do hope they will introduce legendary WvW armor in the future.

Arcaedus.7290:

The problem with this argument though is there are many of us who are dedicated WvWers. We’ve been in the game mode for over a year and actively participate in it for hours every night and are still no where near rank 2000.

[…]

Lowering the rank requirement to 1500 or 1000 would reward this group without really harming the groups from the first list and without making the rewards easily accessible to casual or new players.

I fall into the second category of WvWers that you describe, spending most of my playtime babysitting sentries/camps/towers, recapping, and supporting the main zerg in defense/offense when necessary. I just hit rank 1000 this week, so I’m nowhere near qualifying for the T3 myself, but I’m okay with that because I see it as a long-term goal. If ANet reduced it to 1000 come this Tuesday, I would honestly be deeply disappointed because I would have nothing to look forward to in terms of rewards for my favorite game mode. I want to reach the bar they’ve set for it, not cry until they lower the bar to my level. I understand for some players, like the OP, it seems impossibly daunting, but I feel the same way when I look at the requirements for raids (a game mode for which I have zero interest at the moment) and legendary armor. As Nikkinella said earlier, it’s a matter of perspective.

And again, there are 3 tiers of Triumphant armor that players can obtain. The T2 is functionally the same as T3 and has no rank requirements or limits outside of crafting.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

If they leave it as is, all it proves is that the game is headed in the direction of some of the most grindiest mmo’s out there

Have you ever played a F2P Korean MMO? I did, for 4 years. Compared to that, earning 2000 ranks in WvW is nothing.

I’m rank 493 now and I have played wvw much more at launch before wxp was a thing. I probably have close to 500 hrs played in it, now maybe more. This grind is too much and I don’t want this game to become grindy. As far as my experience with grinds in other games it’s extensive needles to say. I played final fantasy 11 at launch for 3 years and obtained a relic weapon so I know the meaning of grind. That’s one of the reasons I play gw2 today is so that I don’t have to do that anymore within reason. So the grind is more of the issue for me rather then the intended target of the audience.

In addition, the intended target audience is clearly new players, since that is why you make new rewards is to always entice new players. If they wanted to reward dedicated wvwers, they would simply give them a 1 time reward that is obtainable only by r 2K right now and be done with it. This is designed as a grind to attract new players and it is enticement for people to play wvw in lieu of new wvw content.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

If they leave it as is, all it proves is that the game is headed in the direction of some of the most grindiest mmo’s out there, which concerns me and should concern all of you as well.

Jayne.9251:

Again, you have a choice. If Anet caves, and thankfully it’s looking like they won’t, you’ll have this content completed and off to another game, stripping revenue from Anet.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Lower-the-Rank-Requirement-for-Armor/6622871/edit
Conversely, if it takes you a long while to get the shiny, you may just learn what a unique and great game mode this is.

Remember, you have a choice.

And to be fair, you aren’t this first harbinger of doom here who’s predicted the decline of GW2 because somethings not easy. People have been saying the game is doomed for five years now. Yet we are still chugging along.

I’ve been playing wvw since launch and have mastered it. There is nothing for me to “learn” about wvw. I especially don’t need 2k hours to figure out the mysteries of a game mode I have already long mastered. Your right I do have a choice, I can not pursue it, and I probably wont because this is the opposite of what a-net promised us in terms of mmo content, but to that end I’m going to voice my displeasure in hopes that they do change it.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

This game wasn’t marketed as a grindy mmo, infact it was one of its selling points and its one of the reasons I play it to this day. I don’t understand why so many would cheer for this or even attempt to justify its legitimacy.

Jayne.9251:

Where does it say that exactly?

Well it’s actually in the MMO manifesto for gw2 so… If your not aware of this you must not have played the game as long as I have. I know quite a bit about the history of gw2 & gw1(played since 2004 gw1 beta till today). Perhaps you should re-evaluate some of your opinions about me and take them a bit more seriously.

https://youtu.be/FU1JUwPqzQY?t=1m21s

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Look how they promote the new wvw rewards, they chose to show a screenshot of the new armor (as opposed to the legendary back-piece which is more reasonable to obtain) and they act as though “common in and check out those new rewards.” Unbeknownst to us though the grind for it is beyond unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/GuildWars2/status/872127006741278720

Jayne.9251:

Again you have a choice. You do not NEED these items.

Give it up already. You’re the only one still here screeching over this.

I think you’ve had some very thoughtful and respectful replies to your pages of posts, but you seem to have tunnel vision.

Time to adult.

Edited to add: Geeze that armour is atrocious lol. All this fuss over bounce dryer sheets tied to your back?

Yes we have had a ton of thoughtful replies on both sides, and from what I can see, the ones who are for lowering it are much more articulate and they make extremely valid points with a lot of thought and logic behind it. This is because we are trying to change the status quo and let anet know they are making a mistake as opposed to blindly towing the company line or being selfish about what we already have.

Being an adult has nothing to do with being quiet about wanting the rank req to be lowered. Being quite about subject which I feel hurt the brand is akin to me getting food poisoning from eating bad food and trying to tell the company that made it that they might have a contamination issue in their product. Only for others to say shut up your being a baby time to man up to that food poisoning (this is nonsense).

If they don’t lower it, I won’t be pursuing it, when otherwise I would be if it was more reasonable. This isn’t a protest either, Its too grindy and im telling a-net that there are lot of other people who feel the same way and that this isnt the mmo we were sold on and it’s unreasonable.

additionally, You don’t need these items either as most wvwers talk about how they play for the enjoyment of the game, then why would you care what the rewards are in the first place or how anet distributes them? Why do wvwers for years complain about better rewards if they are playing it for enjoyment? Why does it matter? I’ll tell you why, because they are trying to attract new players and spvpers and pvers into wvw, and this is who I am advocating on behalf of.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Don’t even try to sugar coat what the rank req in wvw means. This is not a challenge, nor does it require any skill. It’s pure mindless grind for 80% of it.

Jayne.9251:

And has been said countless times in this thread: You don’t need the item to play the game. If you had ONE viable reason as to why you HAVE to have it, that would be fine, but you have yet to do anything but type walls of text. I’m sorry, it’s true. Half this thread is you.

You don’t technically need 99% of any gear in this game, acquiring gear in gw2 is end game content. If you don’t get gear whats the point? There is no vertical gear progression like in other mmo’s this is the end game, collectors and completionists are drawn to gw2 as an mmo for this reason.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Its silly because the first year barely even recorded wvw rank so how many hours were spent there where no “commitment” to wvw was recorded.

Jayne.9251:

Actually ranks weren’t introduced until just after year two, or was it year three? Without rewards or any loot. But we still played it.

And you feel it should be made easier for you? Are you willing to cough up two years worth of pve income?

I was right there playing the first year, and that time is lost for both of us, so I don’t know why you think i wasn’t playing wvw before wxp came out?

No I don’t think any aspect of getting t3 armor is “hard” since you use the word “easier.” Its a matter of time, the grind is too much especially compared to all other rewards in the entire game. It’s also not just for me, many others want the rank req lowered as well.

In addition to this I would gladly cough over 2-3 years of “pve” income to obtain this, as that would take much less time for me to earn then wvw r 2000. Especially since the majority of my money is earned through playing the TP a revenue source which is also freely available to wvwers. So in conclusion, I would hardly care about spending any income I earned from “pve” play.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Or the fact that the fastest way to rank up today is still to ktrain which is mindless and isn’t even WvW

Jayne.9251:

Well FABULOUS! You can earn this award in less time than me. So what’s the problem?

They have patched this, and you can no longer farm to rank 2000-5000 in one month. But they let those who did keep that rank. Nobody cared at the time because no rewards were ever gated behind wvw rank. And yes the moral is, in hindsight, we all should of farmed it in this limited time frame.

Jayne.9251:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Jayne.9251:

lol WvWers are very familiar with “we are monitoring things and will make adjustments as needed.”

I’m very proud of Anet for sticking to this one. They’d have caved by now to the yelling and screaming, and it looks like they’ll keep this one non-mandatory shiny as something to work towards.

It’s painful standing ground the first time. But over time it winds up providing better gameplay.

It takes them usually a month to change/address things, they can still lower it.

No. Any pve outcry in the past has been “fixed” within a week of the forum rants, after a new feature is implemented. And usually because it’s justified. In this case it’s not.

There’s merit in not making this change. You either give up or you stick around which means more revenue for Anet in the latter case.

They lower it, you guys gobble up content as has previously been seen, then complain about not having any challenges. Or head off to other games until Anet comes up with new content — losing them revenue.

Don’t even try to sugar coat what the rank req in wvw means. This is not a challenge, nor does it require any skill. It’s pure mindless grind for 80% of it.

I have no idea why any wvwer would take pride in it. The only thing it shows is perhaps hours played in wvw and as someone who is a min/maxer I would say your doing it wrong, since it was so much easier to get it when eotm came out. This cheapens the ranks as it is and it was much more efficient to rank up when eotm was launched and so the lesson here is that we should of taken advantage of that when we had the chance, as it was about 100x more efficient to rank up then, than it is now. Its even more silly because the first year barely even recorded wvw rank so how many hours were spent there where no “commitment” to wvw was recorded. Or the fact that the fastest way to rank up today is still to ktrain which is mindless and isn’t even wvw.

If they leave it as is, all it proves is that the game is headed in the direction of some of the most grindiest mmo’s out there, which concerns me and should concern all of you as well. This game wasn’t marketed as a grindy mmo, infact it was one of its selling points and its one of the reasons I play it to this day. I don’t understand why so many would cheer for this or even attempt to justify its legitimacy.

Look how they promote the new wvw rewards, they chose to show a screenshot of the new armor (as opposed to the legendary back-piece which is more reasonable to obtain) and they act as though “common in and check out those new rewards.” Unbeknownst to us though the grind for it is beyond unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/GuildWars2/status/872127006741278720

Jayne.9251:

lol WvWers are very familiar with “we are monitoring things and will make adjustments as needed.”

I’m very proud of Anet for sticking to this one. They’d have caved by now to the yelling and screaming, and it looks like they’ll keep this one non-mandatory shiny as something to work towards.

It’s painful standing ground the first time. But over time it winds up providing better gameplay.

It takes them usually a month to change/address things, they can still lower it.

I think Anet should add a consumer that either turns badges of honor into bags of loot or it should allow us to convert badges of honor into wxp. Something along the lines of 100-250 badges of honor = 1 wvw rank.

Would be nice if Anet could weight in on this as it seems to be unanimously approved.

somewhatobsessed.6309:

People here seem to be forgetting that the 2000 rank requirement is only for the Sublime T3 chest, not the entire T3 set. The first piece is available at rank 1500, which seems perfectly reasonable to me. If the requirement for the Sublime chest is reduced to rank 1000, then each of the previous parts must be reduced in turn, meaning the T3 gloves become available at 500.

Is this seriously what you’re suggesting? Because, in my humble opinion, rank 500 is far too low for this set of rewards. It’s nothing to an average dedicated WvWer (which, I suspect, most of those protesting this requirement are not).

To reiterate my previous comment, McKenna herself said that the T3 was designed as a prestige reward for vets with “crazy high ranks.” Five hundred is decidedly not "crazy high.* I’ve earned almost 100 ranks in the last two weeks with minimal effort, playing as I normally do (some zerging, but mostly roaming/back-capping and sitting in towers/camps). I don’t particularly care how acquiring this reward compares to other game modes, only how it functions in this game mode, and in this game mode, rank 2000 is no big deal if you actually play WvW.

Again, learn to deal with the fact that if you’re not a high-ranked, dedicated WvWer, this reward was not designed with you (much less a new player) in mind. If you want it, work for it.

I’d be fine with them lowering it to anything around r 1000. Either make the first piece cost r 500 and have the t3 chest be 1000, or have them all be r 1000 or have it scale from r 1000 – 1500.

If they are going to leave it at r 2000 I wish Anet would say so. I also think If it stays at r 2000 that it should be legendary. I also personally will not pursue it if it stays at r 2000 but that’s just me.

somewhatobsessed.6309:

People here seem to be forgetting that the 2000 rank requirement is only for the Sublime T3 chest, not the entire T3 set. The first piece is available at rank 1500, which seems perfectly reasonable to me. If the requirement for the Sublime chest is reduced to rank 1000, then each of the previous parts must be reduced in turn, meaning the T3 gloves become available at 500.

Is this seriously what you’re suggesting? Because, in my humble opinion, rank 500 is far too low for this set of rewards. It’s nothing to an average dedicated WvWer (which, I suspect, most of those protesting this requirement are not).

To reiterate my previous comment, McKenna herself said that the T3 was designed as a prestige reward for vets with “crazy high ranks.” Five hundred is decidedly not "crazy high.* I’ve earned almost 100 ranks in the last two weeks with minimal effort, playing as I normally do (some zerging, but mostly roaming/back-capping and sitting in towers/camps). I don’t particularly care how acquiring this reward compares to other game modes, only how it functions in this game mode, and in this game mode, rank 2000 is no big deal if you actually play WvW.

Again, learn to deal with the fact that if you’re not a high-ranked, dedicated WvWer, this reward was not designed with you (much less a new player) in mind. If you want it, work for it.

I’d be fine with them lowering it to anything around r 1000. Either make the first piece cost r 500 and have the t3 chest be 1000, or have them all be r 1000 or have it scale from r 1000 – 1500.

If they are going to leave it at r 2000 I wish Anet would say so. I also think If it stays at r 2000 that it should be legendary.

Nikkinella.8254:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Nikkinella.8254:

If you’re only getting 1 per hour, you’re doing something wrong. And that problem lies with you. If i’m able to get more just from ganking people and sometimes intentionally not capping stuff just to lure more people in to fight me, I have no idea what you’re doing wrong to get so little. I still think that if they actually cave to the pvers demands and make it easier, than they should make it easier for wvw players to get access to legendary armor.

For a pvers perspective, it doesnt seem unreasonable to do all that crap. But for a wvw player it is completely ridiculous. I suppose its a matter of perspective. This seems like an unreasonable grind for a pve player, but is entirely too easy for a dedicated wvw player. If they make one easier, they should make both easier. Its only fair IMO. Especially considering the fact that swappable stats would be most useful in wvw where you have to change builds constantly and most of us already carry 3+armor sets per class for different things. I don’t see why you would even need swappable stats in pve when you just use the same meta build for raids and never change it. and open world pve you can just use whatever you want and it works.

This isn’t about easy or hard though, its about time spent. Personally I think all of gw2 is easy. The time spent to get wvw rank 2k is far more egregious time wise then any other reward in game, except for pinnacle weapons from 30k achievement points. Achievement points which are also game wide as opposed to game mode specific.

If you transitioned from wvw to pve, you would realize that ALL rewards associated with it can be obtained far quicker then rank 2000 in wvw. (same goes for spvp as well).

Again, its a matter of perspective. For someone like me that despises pve in this game, the time it would take for any pve rewards is ridiculous. It would probably take me a few years to get legendary armor forcing myself to do all that pve grind. For someone that enjoys wvw, this is nothing though. It may seem alot to a pver that doesnt like being in wvw though. Even if it was 4k+ rank, i could probably get it in a few months grinding from where i am now. If you really grind for it, you could get 3 or more ranks per hour. I still dont feel at all that its the least bit unreasonable from a wvw players perspective. Like im sure there are pvers that feel the legendary armor requirements are reasonable. I don’t, I think all that pve grind is completely ridiculous and should be lowered or atleast made more accessible to wvw players through reward tracks. Again, if they lower wvw requirements to make it easier for pve players, they should lower the requirements for pve rewards to make it easier for wvw players. fair is fair.

If they aren’t going to change that, then they shouldn’t touch the wvw rewards. If i have to put in such a long boring grind for pve stuff, pvers should have to put in an equally long annoying grind for wvw stuff. I would of course prefer they made it so that all players could do what they enjoy and get the rewards they want and not have to suffer through stuff they dont like to get something they want.

That would make sense though and Anet sure as hell wont do that. I mean, I would totally be in favor of pvers being able to get this by playing in pve only, IF they also made it possible for wvw players to get legendary armor only by playing wvw. Remember when anet used to be a company about “play the way you want. You shouldn’t have to wait around to have fun. You should be able to play content you enjoy and be rewarded for it. The game shouldnt feel like a job”? Yeah well its not like that anymore. PvE is basically the boring job for me i have to suffer through until i get to go play the mode I enjoy.

Atleast with reward tracks I dont have to spend as much time in pve to be able to afford stuff for wvw now. Its unfair for both types of players at this point. I’m sure the pvers dont want to be in wvw anymore than i want to be in pve. But at this point its just a matter of “I have to suffer for what I want, so you should too”. Anet has changed alot from the company they used to be and the community has changed too as a result.

It’s not a matter of perspective really. Lets assume you take a player who is just starting out in the game, and that player is the best player of all time. They min/maxes everything and play perfectly. If they go into pve, and they clear every raid boss, every week (which can be done in only 4 hrs and then you are finished for the entire week) then you would have a full set of legendary armor in 3-6 months tops.

Let’s put the same player into wvw and apply the same favors, they are min/maxing it out, even doing k-trains exclusively perhaps, and getting them up and running consistently all the time and never wiping to zergs and nothing really impedes wxp gain. They cant however use boosters, because new players don’t have boosters and there is no such equivalent in pve raids where u can use a booster and get legendary armor faster. Your still looking at about 1 1/2 – 2 years (leaning more towards 1 year if all you did was karma train at 4 hrs a day, every day and got a k-train group that was efficient every day).

So when looking at this from a point of view of min/maxing while looking at how efficiently it could be done and discarding personal limitations or feelings about specific game modes, you can see that getting wvw r 2000 takes much longer then any other reward on any other game mode.

Nikkinella.8254:

If you’re only getting 1 per hour, you’re doing something wrong. And that problem lies with you. If i’m able to get more just from ganking people and sometimes intentionally not capping stuff just to lure more people in to fight me, I have no idea what you’re doing wrong to get so little. I still think that if they actually cave to the pvers demands and make it easier, than they should make it easier for wvw players to get access to legendary armor.

For a pvers perspective, it doesnt seem unreasonable to do all that crap. But for a wvw player it is completely ridiculous. I suppose its a matter of perspective. This seems like an unreasonable grind for a pve player, but is entirely too easy for a dedicated wvw player. If they make one easier, they should make both easier. Its only fair IMO. Especially considering the fact that swappable stats would be most useful in wvw where you have to change builds constantly and most of us already carry 3+armor sets per class for different things. I don’t see why you would even need swappable stats in pve when you just use the same meta build for raids and never change it. and open world pve you can just use whatever you want and it works.

This isn’t about easy or hard though, its about time spent. Personally I think all of gw2 is easy. The time spent to get wvw rank 2k is far more egregious time wise then any other reward in game, except for pinnacle weapons from 30k achievement points. Achievement points which are also game wide as opposed to game mode specific.

If you transitioned from wvw to pve, you would realize that ALL rewards associated with it can be obtained far quicker then rank 2000 in wvw. (same goes for spvp as well).

Nikkinella.8254:

Just go do raids he says. Yeh, find a group that’s willing to take someone thats barely ever set foot in pve before then have to do incredibly boring pve content with said group on whatever their schedule is, Not to mention the fact i’ll have to grind in pve a ton more before that to get armor for a build that pvers use. Compared to being able to just go into wvw by yourself, run around and flip a few camps. With boosters on you can get 10+ ranks per night. You’re lying saying it would take 2 years. I dont know where you pvers came up with this number, it will most certainly not take 2 years if i can run around solo getting 10 ranks in a few hours with a booster on. If you ran in a group, i’m sure you could get alot more than that. The wvw rewards are infinitely more accessible to pvers than pve rewards are to wvw players. When this thing started, I was only around rank 2200. Im rank 2750 now just from solo roaming flipping camps now that im actually trying. So this 2 years to rank up is pure absolute BS and a complete lie fabricated by people that dont want to put in the work and want it handed to them.

The avg rank gain per hour with no boosters is around 1 rank per hour (most players don’t have boosters), your looking at standing around, scouting, losing zerg vs zerg, building siege to cap something only be driven off by defenders, all of these are time consuming and result in no wxp gain and yet all are extremely common events in wvw. Sometimes I play for 1 1/2 hours and don’t gain a single rank.

If you play 4 hrs a day everyday for a year you’ll be about 1 1/2 the way to rank 2000. Compound that with days u don’t play (remember u have to play everyday) or days u don’t play 4 hrs. Your looking at about 1 1/2 to 2 years for rank 2000.

Now compare that to any other reward in game in relation to time spent and you can begin to see why most think it’s unreasonable.

A simple solution to this would be to lower the rank req of t3 armor to r 1000 and then add in t4 armor at r 2000. T4 armor should require t3 armor, more materials, be legendary, and look the same as t3.

Either that or give all wvwers an exclusive 1 time item/s for having r 2000 right now and be done with it. Then lower t3 to r 1000 to make the grind more reasonable. That way wvwers get something unique and others don’t have to pursue an unreasonable grind to the point at which they become disuaded.

Nikkinella.8254:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Nikkinella.8254:

The only people that seem to have a problem with this are the pvers, becuse they want it now so they can leave and go back to pve. Well, newsflash pvers: This isnt a reward for YOU! This is a reward for the dedicated WvW players. You have plenty of crap already in PvE that you can mindlessly grind with no effort to your hearts content. You wont die without this stuff. If you want it that badly, put in the same work that all the dedicated wvw players have. This is OUR reward that we deserve after so many years of neglect from Anet. I personally hope they increase the requirement for it. Or possibly add a requirement where you need a certain amount of kills while outmanned so you actually have to roam in small groups and learn how to win fights against larger groups.

This sounds very entitled, you are excluding new players from obtaining this, because the grind is unreasonable and unrealistic. There is no reward in this game that is “not for someone” the point of the rewards is to encourage players to pursue a game mode not be put off by the daunting grind which dissuades most players. Saying its your reward over others is selfish. Saying that others need to learn how to play is insulting and has nothing to do with the sheer amount of grind involved in getting r 2000. The only reason u don’t care is because you happen to have r 2000 already and you already admit that you don’t care about whether or not this is an egregious grind for others starting out because you already have it.

Shrugging off r 1000 and acting like its nothing is ridiculous, it takes a whole year to reach this rank. If that’s not commitment to wvw then what is? What imaginary number do you suggest? Why not just make it r10000 and have it take years? At what point is it ridiculous?

For anyone that plays wvw exclusively it is not at all too much, its in fact very low. I’m in favor of upping it to 4k even though im only at 2k. so my rank has nothing to do with it, i still think its easy to get. If i actually zerged, i probably would be at 4k by now, but i just roam and flip camps. You pvers want an easier way to get wvw rewards? Fine lets make an easy way for wvw players that dont want to do pve to get legendary armor. The huge requirement is unfair for players that are new to pve, we shouldn’t have to grind for that long in pve to get legendary armor. Those of us that have only played wvw for the past 5 years have no way of ever getting legendary armor as it is now, lower the requirement for that. Put in a reward track in wvw so we can get legendary insights just from playing wvw. Do that, THEN and only then can you talk about lowering requirements for a WVW exclusive reward to make it easier for pvers. Have to make it fair both ways, you pvers want easier wvw rewards, we deserve easier pve rewards.

Your saying that you can’t get legendary armor, just go do raids. You’ll be greeted with a gentle grind of only 4-6 hrs a week and 3-6 months and you’ll have a full set. In comparison wvw r 2000 takes 2 years – 4 hrs a day every day.

It’s not my fault that wvw doesn’t add legendary armor, that is a separate issue, one which I agree with you on. If they are going to leave t3 armor at rank 2000 it’s insulting that it’s not legendary.

Nikkinella.8254:

The only people that seem to have a problem with this are the pvers, becuse they want it now so they can leave and go back to pve. Well, newsflash pvers: This isnt a reward for YOU! This is a reward for the dedicated WvW players. You have plenty of crap already in PvE that you can mindlessly grind with no effort to your hearts content. You wont die without this stuff. If you want it that badly, put in the same work that all the dedicated wvw players have. This is OUR reward that we deserve after so many years of neglect from Anet. I personally hope they increase the requirement for it. Or possibly add a requirement where you need a certain amount of kills while outmanned so you actually have to roam in small groups and learn how to win fights against larger groups.

This sounds very entitled, you are excluding new players from obtaining this, because the grind is unreasonable and unrealistic. There is no reward in this game that is “not for someone” the point of the rewards is to encourage players to pursue a game mode not be put off by the daunting grind which dissuades most players. Saying its your reward over others is selfish. Saying that others need to learn how to play is insulting and has nothing to do with the sheer amount of grind involved in getting r 2000. The only reason u don’t care is because you happen to have r 2000 already and you already admit that you don’t care about whether or not this is an egregious grind for others starting out because you already have it.

Shrugging off r 1000 and acting like its nothing is ridiculous, it takes a whole year to reach this rank. If that’s not commitment to wvw then what is? What imaginary number do you suggest? Why not just make it r10000 and have it take years? At what point is it ridiculous?

Should add an item that allows us to convert badges of honor to wxp.

Sly.9518:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Terrahero.9358:

Arcaedus.7290:

I gurantee you that had June 6th rolled around, and the rank requirement been originally set at 1k or 1.5k, the few of you praising the 2k rank requirement wouldn’t have lifted a single finger to argue that it should be higher.

Oh we’re doing mind reading now huh, let me give it a try.

I guarentee you that had June 6th rolled around and the rank requirement was 1k, you lot would still complain that it was to high and demand it lowered.

Your assuming that everyone on here wants the armor for free. When I first logged in and saw the armor I got excited and was looking forward to wvwing to get it. When I saw it was 2K I felt deflated because that’s a ridiculous amount of time to spend in a game mode, up to 3X the amount of any other comparable reward in game. I instantly though that 1K for tons of reasons above was still a lot but was reasonable and attainable in a realistic time frame (1 year for r 1000 as opposed to 2 years for r 2000).

You forget hat while WvW had no rewards, everyother gamemode did hell Players wanting legendary armor had almost 2 years to prepare for getting legendary armor as soon as it was released… you had more than 2 years time to get rank 2000 before T3 armor was released to get it when it was released.

Your realize that by full clearing raids each week you could craft 3 full sets of legendary armor faster then you could go from rank 0-2000 with no boosters.

Terrahero.9358:

Arcaedus.7290:

I gurantee you that had June 6th rolled around, and the rank requirement been originally set at 1k or 1.5k, the few of you praising the 2k rank requirement wouldn’t have lifted a single finger to argue that it should be higher.

Oh we’re doing mind reading now huh, let me give it a try.

I guarentee you that had June 6th rolled around and the rank requirement was 1k, you lot would still complain that it was to high and demand it lowered.

Your assuming that everyone on here wants the armor for free. When I first logged in and saw the armor I got excited and was looking forward to wvwing to get it. When I saw it was 2K I felt deflated because that’s a ridiculous amount of time to spend in a game mode, up to 3X the amount of any other comparable reward in game. I instantly though that 1K for tons of reasons above was still a lot but was reasonable and attainable in a realistic time frame (1 year for r 1000 as opposed to 2 years for r 2000).

well I really hope they change this, I would imagine there will be quite a few players upset tonight at reset who just miss that reward tier by a couple of pips.

SkyShroud.2865:

Arcaedus.7290:

I gurantee you that had June 6th rolled around, and the rank requirement been originally set at 1k or 1.5k, the few of you praising the 2k rank requirement wouldn’t have lifted a single finger to argue that it should be higher.

How sure are you that people won’t argue for 500 rank then?

because rank 1k is reasonable. while rank 2k is really unreasonable for many reasons listed above.

XenesisII.1540:

I already suggested this but no one seems to care..
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Suggestions-for-Skirmish-stuff/first#post6616996

Yah everyone I’ve talked to seems to like this idea, but I guess they would rather complain that pvers and myself are entitled for some reason on my other post, rather then talk about something constructive.

You guys are acting like she’s complaining about being deaf and your missing the point. She’s talking about how disgusting she was treated because she was deaf, and also pointing out how nonsensical it is that commanders kick people who aren’t in ts, when there isn’t any reason to do so. She also articulated many good reasons why it actually hurts the squad when they do this in a zerg vs zerg.

I think it would be a good idea to award the claim tickets at the end of each reward chest interval rather then at the end of a reward tier.

So for example you’re on diamond chest and the reward for the end of the tier is 40 wvw claim tickets. Instead break the 40 claim tickets up into each reward chest (6 in total for that tier). So each reward chest would award 6 or 7 claim tickets over the coarse of 6 diamond chests.

This way nobody gets shafted at the end of the week (they get some claim tickets that they earned) when it resets.

The way it is now someone might be 30-40 pips away from the end tier chest and then the system resets for the week, and they get 0 claim tickets for that tier, seems a little harsh.

Eater of Peeps.9062:

I’d like community’s help stopping this exclusionary practice as it harms people, squads, servers and a great game I love for 14 yrs! Show a little respect to Anet pls and help them have the game we all want!

I agree, I think wvw commanders who exclude people for any reason (class/ts) when the squad is not full are hurting their own game mode and possibly even killing it, especially when they are the only ones tagged up in a map (unless its a guild group and they’re doing some sort of gvg. Then I feel bad for them because there is no gvg in game so I gotta give them that.)

Other then that its their squad their rules, just don’t be surprised when spvpers/pvers/new people get turned off quickly to wvw w/this type of behavior.

Arcaedus.7290:

I gurantee you that had June 6th rolled around, and the rank requirement been originally set at 1k or 1.5k, the few of you praising the 2k rank requirement wouldn’t have lifted a single finger to argue that it should be higher.

This is completely true. I don’t understand why wvwers defend r 2000 so blindly with no real reasoning that can’t be completely contradicted.

Kastylx.3725:

Tbh the rank requirement is just a lazy work. Why cant they cost more ticket, and make fun achievements? Like kill 50 players with treb for 2 tickets, kill 20 ppl in 10 seconds for another, 15 keeps for another 1-2, Kill lord without anyone in the squad getting downed etc – these are just random ideas i came up with in seconds.

Every 5th or 10th rank chest gives another 1-2. Making ranks matter, but not a requirement

Also, better daily achievements. capture 10 towers for 1 ticket etc. It would reward active playing without relying on the stupid afk-able participation system (which should be reworked either way) and active wvw players would still earn it sooner, because they play more wvw.

Then, after 6-12 months, just change the armors a bit, give their effect a recolor and reintroduce it as t4-t5 etc (smth like it was in wow with the pvp gears), every new sets requires the pervious tier to craft, also give them titles, in case some ppl doesnt like the look but want to show off their dedication. I dont think it would require more than a few developers, just like raids (prolly even fewer)

I know its not gonna happen, but its a lazy work as it is right now. They probably wont touch it for 2 years, thats why the high rank requirement.

Sorry for my english.

I agree, if they don’t lower the rank req (which I hope they do) it’s an indication that they aren’t going to touch wvw for a long time, and the game is transitioning into a long term grindy mmo, due to lack of development of new content.

ImLegion.4018:

Seeing all these weird complaints in the forums I can only reckon there are alot of pve players who cannot handle the WvW community.

Well im complaining, and my complaints are reasoned and logical. I also spvp and pve and wvw. What exactly can I not handle about the wvw community? Do they know something secret? even though I play the same game that they do – and then some?

alain.1659:

For this important wish of yours, I would like to express my sincerest answer. There are others that just typed : “No”, which, as an answer, is incomplete. The real answer should be:

Hell no.

real deep, very insightful, I love all the reasons you stated why not. Very good analysis.

I’d have to say why not? it dosen’t hurt anyone or anything. I dont see anyone complaining that you get wxp from eotm, so why not pips too?

Prysin.8542:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Sarrs.4831:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

No other game mode has a system which tracks for 4 years that goes to rank 10k.

achievement points

that’s game wide, wvw has them too

If you started from 0 Achievement points. Only did WvW, you’d spend 3 years to get to 10k achievement points. Assuming you did all the WvW dailies and got ALL the WvW achievements.

you can get 10k achivement points in PvE in just 5-6 months if you have all the Living story stuff unlocked.

So cut it out with your strawman arguments.

achievement points are not game mode specific, my argument was game mode specific

Sarrs.4831:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

No other game mode has a system which tracks for 4 years that goes to rank 10k.

achievement points

that’s game wide, wvw has them too