I could have spent that time working and getting money.
Would that have been preferable? If you had known six months ago that Fractal level would eventually be wiped to 30 and too bad for anyone that went beyond 30, would that have stopped you from going beyond 30? Would you have said “Screw it, I’m going to go to work instead. I’ll come back after the wipe.”? Or would you have done Fractals anyway, and maybe gone beyond 30 anyway because why not? It was harder and that difficulty made it more interesting to you. Would foreknowledge have changed your actions, or only your disposition about the results?
Sure, not directly but telling us how there is clearly one outcome and how we still kept arguing kind of delivers the message.
How many of those suggestions/fixes would be in the game if people hadn’t opened their mouth?
Possibly some, probably none. That doesn’t change the timeline. Months for it to happen, in some cases a year or more. This was never going to happen in the span you were looking at. It will never happen because in a month no one will even remember it was a thing, at least and still be complaining about it. So it goes away and ANet doesn’t need to be concerned with it.
Bugs, real bugs, keep being a thing and keep coming up. That’s why every month, sometimes even week or day, someone on the Ranger forums brings up and issue with pets, or the 1H sword. This will go away before it had time to matter.
What exactly do you take “share in future profits or appreciation in value” to mean? That’s monetary value. That’s what that means.
If the only thing valuable to you is money, then I feel sorry for you.
A thing is what it is. Coming down on me just because “profits” and “appreciation in value” clearly indicates that we’re talking about monetary value doesn’t change that fact. If you prefer we can value you it in pigs, but it still has to be based on some sort of monetary barter system.
Kal, could you please go to suggestion/bugs forum and tell everyone to shut up? I mean most likely they won’t be heard either.
Why, I’ve never told anyone to shut up. If anything I’m the one whose been told to shut up.
Also, it’s not reasonable to do so. You’re right, most of them will probably not get fixed, but some things that people have asked for have eventually come to be after many many months. Not a week, though.
That’s the problem. Compensation given was never going to happen. Never. Period. You chose not to see the truth of that, but it is a reality. The only actually legitimate outcome in all this was 1) No compensation given. You can and have disagreed about this, but it is a fact and always has been.
You said ‘not possible’. It is possible, no matter how improbable. look up quantum physics and you will understand a little more.
Yeah, that doesn’t make a thing possible. Quantum requires alternate realities to allow everything to be possible. We’re not in multiple realities. We’re in this reality, and in this reality it wasn’t going to happen, and didn’t.
I just wanted to say, as an actual physicist, you are wrong.
Quantum physics does not require alternate realities. It has to do with the probability that a particle is in a particular state.
Anyway because this is now off topic lemme just get it back on topic.
Kal, how do you feel about the equity idea when it comes to human light t3?
A particle being in a particular state isn’t the same thing as everything being possible, even things that aren’t possible. Anyone being compensated for this was not possible. It wasn’t going to happen. Therefore, in order for Quantum to be relevant to the argument you have to be taking into account for unlimited possibility where I could flip a coin and have it come up broccoli. That’s not going to happen, but is technically possible. It’s still a pointless argument.
As for human light t3, I’m not familiar with the argument. I find most human cultural armor to be pretty ugly, and/or dumb.
I didn’t bring it into the argument, so, meh. Do you think you know for a fact what anet thinks. That’s the only way you could possibly know that there wasn’t ever going to be compensation.
My question is, people spent 120 g for their armor, now it’s in the gem store, for 800 gems. Is this an equity issue.
Yes, in this particular argument, I think I knew for a fact that what happened would happen. It doesn’t matter if it was right or wrong, it was the only legitimate decision they could possibly make on the subject. JMar claiming it’s not true, despite the outcome, does not discount that fact.
How much gold is the T3 cultural armor that people currently own worth? What amount of gold can it be converted into if sold? That is its equity. The answer is 0 gold, maybe some silver. It has no Equity. Is it fair? Hard to say. It’s not identical, therefore the original version is still unique to humans.
I’m of the opinion that cultural armor was never a good idea. Why can anyone use cultural weapons, but the armor was restricted? Especially considering how few armors there are for anyone, also compared to weapons.
It’s been a year. People who got the pieces early had them all this time so they got their gold’s worth. People who just recently got them have room to be upset since they can’t refund the gold. I think it was poorly implemented and probably should have been for more than 800 Gems.
You’re right, your Fractal levels did have a value, but they didn’t have Equity. That’s all I’m saying. Value and Equity aren’t interchangeable words. Because Equity corresponds to a legitimate monetary value where value is concerned and neither my Ranger, nor your Fractal level had that. That’s all I was saying there.
“5.
Informal. ownership, especially when considered as the right to share in future profits or appreciation in value.”Apparently you missed where it didn’t say anything about monetary value
What exactly do you take “share in future profits or appreciation in value” to mean? That’s monetary value. That’s what that means.
That’s the problem. Compensation given was never going to happen. Never. Period. You chose not to see the truth of that, but it is a reality. The only actually legitimate outcome in all this was 1) No compensation given. You can and have disagreed about this, but it is a fact and always has been.
You said ‘not possible’. It is possible, no matter how improbable. look up quantum physics and you will understand a little more.
Yeah, that doesn’t make a thing possible. Quantum requires alternate realities to allow everything to be possible. We’re not in multiple realities. We’re in this reality, and in this reality it wasn’t going to happen, and didn’t.
I just wanted to say, as an actual physicist, you are wrong.
Quantum physics does not require alternate realities. It has to do with the probability that a particle is in a particular state.
Anyway because this is now off topic lemme just get it back on topic.
Kal, how do you feel about the equity idea when it comes to human light t3?
A particle being in a particular state isn’t the same thing as everything being possible, even things that aren’t possible. Anyone being compensated for this was not possible. It wasn’t going to happen. Therefore, in order for Quantum to be relevant to the argument you have to be taking into account for unlimited possibility where I could flip a coin and have it come up broccoli. That’s not going to happen, but is technically possible. It’s still a pointless argument.
As for human light t3, I’m not familiar with the argument. I find most human cultural armor to be pretty ugly, and/or dumb.
That is your opinion. People have different opinions.
If you would have read the article you would understand why we hold value to it. Time and energy put into something creates value to the person putting the time and energy into it.
Somebody who doesn’t like video games may tell you your characters level has no value. Yo ucould argue it does because it’s time and energy you put into gaining levels, skills, etc, but the person who disagrees and doesn’t see value in that will tell you you’re wrong.
You may hold high value in your cleric ranger. I hold no value in it. If anet deleted your toon, I would be unaffected, but would not say you’re not entitled to some sort of compensation, because I would be unaffected.
You’re right, your Fractal levels did have a value, but they didn’t have Equity. That’s all I’m saying. Value and Equity aren’t interchangeable words. Because Equity corresponds to a legitimate monetary value where value is concerned and neither my Ranger, nor your Fractal level had that. That’s all I was saying there.
That’s the problem. Compensation given was never going to happen. Never. Period. You chose not to see the truth of that, but it is a reality. The only actually legitimate outcome in all this was 1) No compensation given. You can and have disagreed about this, but it is a fact and always has been.
You said ‘not possible’. It is possible, no matter how improbable. look up quantum physics and you will understand a little more.
Yeah, that doesn’t make a thing possible. Quantum requires alternate realities to allow everything to be possible. We’re not in multiple realities. We’re in this reality, and in this reality it wasn’t going to happen, and didn’t.
Which version of this corresponds to the apparent loss of Equity mentioned through this thread?
This will be my last response to you on this subject Kal, as I assume you did not read the article on equity, and even if I linked it, you wouldn’t.
“5.
Informal. ownership, especially when considered as the right to share in future profits or appreciation in value.”http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/equity
There is also this definition.
So to answer your question, 1 & 5
Neither of those actually make sense when considered against what a Fractal is. 1 in a roundabout sort of way can apply to ANet about this whole debacle, but not to Fractals as a thing, nor the efforts you put into Fractals.
5, as 2 and 3 is still about value of the thing, of which Fractals have none. You can’t weigh a Fractal against a monetary value, therefore having nothing change or being regressed all the way back to 1 would still have no effect on that value.
Equity was never the right word to use. It makes me even less astonished that they didn’t bother giving it attention.
The size of the thread, and the vehemence with which a handful of people on either side continue to argue about something doesn’t have any impact on the actual worth of the argument in question. There was only ever one possible outcome to all this, and it was the one that occurred. Some chose not to recognize that.
1 outcome? I see two possible
1) No compensation given
2) compensation givenI could give several others, but only two is needed to prove you wrong again.
That’s the problem. Compensation given was never going to happen. Never. Period. You chose not to see the truth of that, but it is a reality. The only actually legitimate outcome in all this was 1) No compensation given. You can and have disagreed about this, but it is a fact and always has been.
This is the definition of Equity
eq·ui·ty
/?ekwit?/
nounnoun: equity
1. the quality of being fair and impartial.
“equity of treatment”
synonyms: fairness, justness, impartiality, egalitarianism;
objectivity, balance, open-mindedness•Law
a branch of law that developed alongside common law in order to remedy some of its defects in fairness and justice, formerly administered in special courts.•(in the US, UK, and several other countries) a trade union to which most professional actors belong.
singular proper noun: Equity; noun: Equity
2. the value of the shares issued by a company.
“he owns 62% of the group’s equity”
synonyms: value, worth;
ownership, rights, proprietorship
“he owns 25% of the equity in the property”•stocks and shares that carry no fixed interest.
plural noun: equities3.the value of a mortgaged property after deduction of charges against it.
Which version of this corresponds to the apparent loss of Equity mentioned through this thread?
I too am disappointed that a thread that garnered 15 pages didn’t get any responses from Devs at all. We even had a very valid and constructive section in the middle (without flames and / or anger)…so they can’t even use the excuse that this was a flame thread and therefore should be ignored. They had ample opportunity to at least weigh in on the discussion while it was a discussion.
I was really excited for the new direction (with CDI) that ANET was taking, but to not take notice of something that was obviously a hot-button topic for a lot of people (while responding in threads that only had 5 posts) to me tells me that they don’t want to take on hot topics…they would rather remain silent than actually discuss important matters….but will gladly discuss unimportant / or / fluff content.
I’m disappointed….and probably will slow down my posting on the forums because of it. I have a day job also…and if they don’t have the time for something important to us, then I guess I don’t have the time either.
The size of the thread, and the vehemence with which a handful of people on either side continue to argue about something doesn’t have any impact on the actual worth of the argument in question. There was only ever one possible outcome to all this, and it was the one that occurred. Some chose not to recognize that.
I have a couple of level 80s and have done some of the other fractals at level 1.
Just to be clear, I have no problem with content being challenging. I just think that because this is story mode in a new release, it should be more forgiving.
Those who think it’s easy can simply run at a higher level, but those who can’t figure it out have no option to avoid it other than to not run fractals at all.
My Fractal level is 5. That’s nothing at all. I typically run level 2, though, because I PUG and that’s what I get. I don’t want to do stuff with Agony since I have no resistance yet.
While I did manage to get trashed in the lightning room, because I was being frantic rather than precise, I still soloed the place up to that point. So I’m really lost in what, exactly, about this was so hard for you and your three groups.
How is it that you ran this three times and never managed to learn anything during any run so as to progress forward.
Epic battle between Gods vs tiny people interacting with switches?
After Halloween I could totally see how they could have done it too. Have the gods all fighting each other as monstrously huge figures, like the Thorns were, around the edge of whatever it is we’re doing. Because of course we wouldn’t actually be involved in that fight. We’re just scuttling around trying to get through it, dealing with the minions of both sides of the fight. Every so often shake the whole map, possibly even applying knockdown that could be dodged, because giant people fighting would be that violent. Then, just at the end we see Abaddon fall. Quick, clear and short, Fractal worthy.
Thus the title of the thread, which I still have yet to get an answer to.
I’ve played the other level 1 fractals, and this is not comparable in difficulty IMO.
Most of them were, at the start.
People complained about how hard the fractals were back a day after their release as well.You have to keep in mind that everyone is new to this fractal, while it is likely that people had already done the other fractals when you teamed up with them and thus knew what to do (or could at least read up on what to do).
I understand. Sorry if I’m coming across as a bit frustrated.
My experience so far with LS stories has been that they introduce the content and are of a reasonable enough difficulty that I, as a newer player without a lot of meta knowledge, can handle with some effort. Compared to that standard, this is over the top.
Also, the game generally gives you more of a clue of what you need to do than is present in that instance.
If it were just me that would be one thing, but when three different groups of 5 can’t figure it out, that tells me there’s a problem.
All of the “haha it was so easy” people should also keep in mind that it’s not good for the game when people who usually don’t do an activity get a big turnoff when they try it for the first time. I’m seeing folks who have never tried fractals try this story instance, and it’s not likely any will ever set foot in there again because of the poor experience they are having.
That’s the bottom line.
Wait… how new are you? Fractals are end game content. They are technically playable at lower levels, but they’re really not designed for it. If you’re not level 80, with a reasonable understanding of how to play, and how to play in dungeons, you’re probably not going to have a good time of it, like you’re not.
It’s a bad idea to put Scarlet in Thaumanova because having every thing in the game revolve around her is extremely lame. She is a lame villain and always has been. So suddenly making every little thing revolve around her machination lowers the value of everything. Next thing we know she’ll be the reason the Dragons are waking, and the reason the human gods left.
It is far more interesting to have widely divergent enemies who are opposing us while also having to contend with each other than it is to have a single unifying enemy that somehow brings groups that have nothing and should have nothing in common into a joint function.
It is exactly the same as the real Fractal, and thus it will have around the same difficulty as the other Fractals.
Thus the title of the thread, which I still have yet to get an answer to.
I’ve played the other level 1 fractals, and this is not comparable in difficulty IMO.
Everyone who has ever done a Fractal has also done the level ones, and we all say it is… so what does that tell you?
If you’re not getting it, that’s on you. It’s pretty simple.
What’s pretty simple is that this forum is filled with condescending, unhelpful people.
As I already said, I was in multiple groups and none of us was able to figure out how to proceed without dying multiple times.
The entire point of the thread is that STORY MODE should not be a high-difficulty instance that new players and those less skilled cannot complete.
Unbelievable.
No, that’s not the point of Story Mode. The point of Story Mode is that there is a STORY involved. In this case the Story is about Ellen Kiel entering the fractal complex and making them bring up Thaumanova and then some interesting bits after the fact where she learns something about the Mists. It is also a way to ensure that everyone, regardless of experience, gets to see the new Fractal right up front, rather than having to run them over and over in the hopes of maybe seeing it.
It also isn’t any more high difficulty than any other dungeon/fractal. Just because you, and the people you play with can’t figure it out doesn’t make it all that hard. It’s on you, not the fractal.
No fractal is similar to another fractal. Having experience in one fractal gives you no insight into how to combat another one. Therefore nobody is coming into this fractal with anything resembling a clue.
If you’re not getting it, that’s on you. It’s pretty simple. You wander around and smash down portals until you happen to take on the group of skritt near the console that has an icon floating over it. The icon is obviously an objective. There isn’t anything that says so, but just wandering around killing things, one way or another you’ll get there.
Once you beat them it moves to the next part where three doors open. You don’t have to have noticed them, you just have to look at your minimap to see three new objectives. Look around and you’ll see open doors to the new objectives.
These are brand new events, so anyone who hasn’t done this before is no expected to just get it. But a little effort and attention will work you through the mechanics of the fight. After completing two objectives you are directed to the middle of the fractal again and moved to the last part. Again the mechanics are new, but not overly complicated if you just pay attention.
There is only one true thing presented in the OP. The bug that basically screws over the group on a wipe is not ok. That was poorly done and completely ridiculous that no one noticed that during “testing.”
The people saying Scarlet would be in the Abaddon fractal are just pulling outlandish justification for the complete disappointment that is the reactor.
Just admit it. You made the wrong choice.
Scarlet is Abaddon, that’s the retcon we haven’t seen yet.
Yeah, in my experience it’s been between 1 and 2 EST. It just turned 1. So hold your horses. Yeesh.
So people who voted for Kiel based on the Fractals offered got exactly what they expected and voted for.
What’s the problem with that?
actually Kiel voters were claiming they expected it to do with Dragons, not Inquest.
BTW, I’m predicting the last boss of the Thaumanova Fractal will be Scarlet or Scarlet will be involved.
I hope I’m wrong but I just smell the stink of it, considering the other 2 fractals also have to do with Scarlet.
Actually, this is all a trick. ANet played us. They said very specifically that they wouldn’t make both fractals, but what they failed to explain is that Chaos is temporal in nature too. The actual cause of the Thaumonova Reactor explosion was Abaddon. And the cause of Abaddon’s downfall was the Inquest. So no matter which Fractal we chose we would just end up seeing on side of the same story.
The soft cap on AR is level 50. Therefore you weren’t intended, by game mechanics, to go beyond 50, yet. Rather than losing 50 levels you should only be getting set back 20 levels, less than half all the levels you should have achieved. That shouldn’t be that big a deal.
Soft cap could have been hard cap if we weren’t supposed to go past that.
You can have unlimited levels. Don’t have a cap. Make it so hard and impossible that nobody can get past it. As soon as somebody completes it, open up 10 more levels. Not that hard really.
We expected more levels after an update (some waiitng at 50, some waiting at 80). Not to be reset to 30 because the devs made a mistake and chose to take it out on the playerbase.
Your expectations fell short. In my opinion that’s your fault for having expectations. I’m probably jaded because I main a Ranger, but I still know better than to have expectations where ANet is concerned.
The reality, though, is that ANet is not beholden to you. Nor is it their responsibility to uphold your expectations, nor mine. They chose a different path, and it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks of that path, nor right nor wrong. All that matters is that ANet chose that path and is following it. Everyone else can either get in line, or not, but no one is getting any more than that.
This is the same thing.
It is not. The clocktower had an end and was implemented as temporary content.
Fractals of the Mists was introduced as an unlimited permanent dungeon.
Horrible, horrible analogy.
All entirely irrelevant facts to the situation. Try actually reading.
Wow, this is incredibly rude. You really should try to be polite.
The facts I mentioned were/are relevant. People knew clocktower wasn’t going to stay around. So you did it or you didn’t.
FOTM was advertised as being endless. We tried to get as far as possible, and now our level is being reset because of that.
Please stop being so rude and insulting.
They’re not relevant because in this scenario the Clocktower has already been shut down. As of right now Halloween is over, there is no clocktower.
FotM has never been endless. There is a hard cap on the levels, therefore that argument is also irrelevant. It doesn’t matter what it was advertised as, only what it is. FotM isn’t being discontinued, it is evolving, you will still be able to run FotM and gain levels in it, you will just have to start at a maximum of level 30. So again the endlessness of FotM is an irrelevant argument.
None of these arguments are relevant to the scenario where people get a title, that will never return for any reason, for running the clocktower JP over 200 times, now after Halloween events have already ended.
I have no control over how you take my comments, nor any interest in doing so. If you’re going to try to argue against me, use arguments that are relevant, or I will call you out on them.
This is the same thing.
It is not. The clocktower had an end and was implemented as temporary content.
Fractals of the Mists was introduced as an unlimited permanent dungeon.
Horrible, horrible analogy.
All entirely irrelevant facts to the situation. Try actually reading.
No, the biggest issue is that we weren’t told. If we had known about this many of us wouldn’t have grinded to scale 80. And at least those who did would have known what they were up to.
It’s really sad so many think this is fair. Developers mess up and instead of standing together people attack those who got hurt. Really awful community.
No one got hurt, You are not being hurt by this. You may be getting set back and you knew very well you weren’t supposed to even get to 80. If you didn’t that’s still your bad, not ANets.
I will not stand with people whose only argument is, I want a thing because I’ll have to do new content at a lower level than I was for the older “content” that won’t exist anymore. It’s not a valid argument. You don’t deserve anything. You didn’t actually earn anything. You reached a very high level in content you weren’t intended to reach it in, with no incentive but because you wanted to. You’re not being stopped from trying to do it all over again in the new content. Nothing you actually physically earned is being removed from you, only an arbitrary number that is associated with a difficulty level that will no longer be relevant to the game.
If that makes you sad, then be sad. But it still doesn’t mean you deserve anything.
give me an official Statement or whatever prepatch january that we weren’t ment to go there or at least I wasn’t ment to go there otherwise your Statement is invalid. I can give you the new teaser Video = unlimited Levels and the original News also unlimited Level.. So please give me a Statement pre january patch that states I wasn’t ment to go there ty!
The fact that it is physically impossible to go past 80 because 81 is locked out discounts unlimited levels right there. Unlimited levels was a concept, not a reality. ANet capped it themselves at 80, that was something they put in after the fact, so that would be your official statement. Pretty much everything you’re saying here loses meaning after that, but I’ll continue anyway.
The soft cap on AR is level 50. Therefore you weren’t intended, by game mechanics, to go beyond 50, yet. Rather than losing 50 levels you should only be getting set back 20 levels, less than half all the levels you should have achieved. That shouldn’t be that big a deal.
This is the same thing.
It is not. The clocktower had an end and was implemented as temporary content.
Fractals of the Mists was introduced as an unlimited permanent dungeon.
Horrible, horrible analogy.
All entirely irrelevant facts to the situation. Try actually reading.
No, the biggest issue is that we weren’t told. If we had known about this many of us wouldn’t have grinded to scale 80. And at least those who did would have known what they were up to.
It’s really sad so many think this is fair. Developers mess up and instead of standing together people attack those who got hurt. Really awful community.
No one got hurt, You are not being hurt by this. You may be getting set back and you knew very well you weren’t supposed to even get to 80. If you didn’t that’s still your bad, not ANets.
I will not stand with people whose only argument is, I want a thing because I’ll have to do new content at a lower level than I was for the older “content” that won’t exist anymore. It’s not a valid argument. You don’t deserve anything. You didn’t actually earn anything. You reached a very high level in content you weren’t intended to reach it in, with no incentive but because you wanted to. You’re not being stopped from trying to do it all over again in the new content. Nothing you actually physically earned is being removed from you, only an arbitrary number that is associated with a difficulty level that will no longer be relevant to the game.
If that makes you sad, then be sad. But it still doesn’t mean you deserve anything.
Why would Barrage apply chill? I understand the benefit over cripple in that it also lowers attack rate, but what would be the reasoning behind a hundred arrows falling from the sky causing someone to be cold?
A big one for beastmaster line is that all families removed from associated traits. All traits effect all pets.
(edited by Kal Spiro.9745)
The daily reset at 1 am is fine, and I was thinking about WvW jumping puzzle. Didn’t know these 2 have separate rules of resetting, which aren’t good in my opinion.
Where are you that the server reset is 1am? The reset is server standard time. For me in EST it’s at 7PM. Actual server time it’s at 4PM.
Changing it to 3AM is an arbitrary change that only effects where you are specifically in a meaningful way, everyone else gets little benefit.
I would assume it has something to do with Fractal skins.
You can disagree how much you want, but the analogy is completely wrong – and i explained why just above.
And they put time and effort of their own initiative, well knowing it didn’t award titles, achievements or any other reward. I don’t see why they should get one now, when they are making such things unavailable.Would it be fair to give a Mad King’s mask now to whoever finished 200 times the Mad King’s Clock Tower in the last halloween?
Obviously no. People didn’t expect a reward – they were never supposed to get one.
So why should this be different?Reward of playing 50-80 is mostly about getting to the higher scale. Now when they remove those higher levels we lose most of our rewards.
You are probably also have a number which you are care about (whether it is achievement points, gear, gold, wxp, etc).
I certainly do. I am proud of my achievement score, and I like my gear and gold. I don’t WvW so no to wxp. The thing is, none of those things are relevant to the argument because none of those things correspond to Fractal Level in any meaningful way.
The argument about the Clocktower, that was a meaningful argument because that is close to a one to one correspondence. If each time you went up the tower it somehow got harder it would be even better. People climbed the clocktower over and over because it was fun and they enjoyed it, not for some arbitrary bonus gift. They got next to nothing for the effort, but it was fun and a thing to do. I enjoyed pushing myself to get up there five times in a single “match.” But I didn’t expect anything of it.
If they suddenly gave everyone who climbed it hundreds of times a title that would never return, now after the fact, I would be tweeked. I did not run it that many times. But I easily could have. If I’d been aware the title would be a thing I would have done it because I enjoy the JP and I like titles. I would feel I deserved that title because I could have earned it, and I would have earned it if I’d known.
This is the same thing. The better solution is the one they’re absolutely going to follow, to just move forward like they always do and not give out arbitrary honors for something that doesn’t exist anymore.
judging by the panic and confusion on the forums, I’d say it’s a safe bet that this change is even more ill concieved than the initial implementation of ascended gear. I remember having to explain over and over again to guildies that they needed an additional upgrade for their gear to actually get agony resistance. I have no idea how I’m gonna explain THIS to them…
I would like to think it’s pretty self evident. You’re going to get an AR only upgrade item. If you have the slot it goes into you can put it there. The value is infinitely upgradable, but it is mind meltingly awful to actually do it past a certain point, and requires Artifice to do at all.
What else is needed.
Accessibility. What good is the content if no one can get to it except for a vast minority of people? At level 30 most people have a reasonable shot to see the instabilities with a moderate bit of effort. Putting it at 50 shuts out the vast majority of players and would discourage many from even trying.
So does that make it right to take it away from us? Just so majority will be ok with it? It’s like saying that they’ll take away legendaries from minority, so majority can catch up to their accomplishments. Or resetting everyone’s achievement score and taking their right to rewards they unlocked, so everyone can “start at equal footing”. We worked hard to get to that level 50 while others were farming gold and getting rewarded for doing dungeons and such. Doesn’t matter how you look at it, it doesn’t make it right.
It does, and I’ll tell you why.
They’re taking away two things. The fractals post-30 under the old system and your access to higher levels of content that no longer exist. That’s all it penultimately boils down to… changing content and accessibility to the new content. Levels are being reset to 30 because no one has done this content beyond level 30, therefore no one has earned any levels beyond 30 in this new content.
That’s why it makes sense and why it’s right. Old content gone. Access to old content gone. Access to new content begins where the new content begins.
Still doesn’t make it right for me in any way. They could have said that the content will be temporary then, so i wouldn’t waste my time. At all. You obviously haven’t been invested in fractals as much as some of us. And because we have been invested into them so much, we’re being punished by taking away one thing in this game we loved the most and not getting anything worth of any value for the time and work we put into it. Developers’ involvement is non-existant in the issue, and because of people like you it makes it all ok. “Hey this guy is cool with it, so everyone is cool with it”. I’m done with this thread and fractals respectively…
What content? An algorithm isn’t content. The only different between EVERY level of Fractals is the difficulty. It keeps getting harder because a program tells it to be harder. It’s not content, it’s not like they actually went and planned out each level and how it would work, they just designed them to be harder.
NOW that isn’t true anymore. They are actually going into the levels past 30 and adding things, things are content. The new instabilities which are supposed to be continually different each level are added content to something that didn’t have added content.
So no content was temporary.
not exactly true, agony changed boss fight mechanics, and some enemies got new abilities. In other parts changing the numbers of enemies changed the best strategies.
However i do believe at some level, the devs said it became 100% the same only scaling in mob stats, my guess is its broken up like the lfg tool, and nothing new happens after 30, other than dmg/def/hp scaling
That’s why I edited out something I put in that I realized was entirely untrue. But it’s still relevant. If nothing new happens after 30, and only things after 30 are removed, then no content is lost.
Accessibility. What good is the content if no one can get to it except for a vast minority of people? At level 30 most people have a reasonable shot to see the instabilities with a moderate bit of effort. Putting it at 50 shuts out the vast majority of players and would discourage many from even trying.
So does that make it right to take it away from us? Just so majority will be ok with it? It’s like saying that they’ll take away legendaries from minority, so majority can catch up to their accomplishments. Or resetting everyone’s achievement score and taking their right to rewards they unlocked, so everyone can “start at equal footing”. We worked hard to get to that level 50 while others were farming gold and getting rewarded for doing dungeons and such. Doesn’t matter how you look at it, it doesn’t make it right.
It does, and I’ll tell you why.
They’re taking away two things. The fractals post-30 under the old system and your access to higher levels of content that no longer exist. That’s all it penultimately boils down to… changing content and accessibility to the new content. Levels are being reset to 30 because no one has done this content beyond level 30, therefore no one has earned any levels beyond 30 in this new content.
That’s why it makes sense and why it’s right. Old content gone. Access to old content gone. Access to new content begins where the new content begins.
Still doesn’t make it right for me in any way. They could have said that the content will be temporary then, so i wouldn’t waste my time. At all. You obviously haven’t been invested in fractals as much as some of us. And because we have been invested into them so much, we’re being punished by taking away one thing in this game we loved the most and not getting anything worth of any value for the time and work we put into it. Developers’ involvement is non-existant in the issue, and because of people like you it makes it all ok. “Hey this guy is cool with it, so everyone is cool with it”. I’m done with this thread and fractals respectively…
What content? An algorithm isn’t content. The only different between EVERY level of Fractals is the difficulty. It keeps getting harder because a program tells it to be harder. It’s not content, it’s not like they actually went and planned out each level and how it would work, they just designed them to be harder.
NOW that isn’t true anymore. They are actually going into the levels past 30 and adding things, things are content. The new instabilities which are supposed to be continually different each level are added content to something that didn’t have added content.
So no content was temporary.
Equity lost is equity lost…regardless of whether that number meant anything to anyone else…the number represents hours and months worth of work to someone…it meant something to them.
Ok, so I’m lost. When you say it’s equity lost do you mean it’s unjust, or are you actually talking about a monetary value of some sort?
I can’t support either, though thinking it’s unjust is at least reasonable from someone who thinks their losing something. But context says you mean the other definition, which just makes no sense.
Fractals contain no equity. You can’t trade them in for a monetary value, you can’t sell them, they don’t become worth more if you hold on to them for a long period of time. This argument just doesn’t make sense.
Just wanted to let y’all know that I’m done responding. I’ve said my piece. I stand by titles and humorous town clothes are the solution to this mess.
I see this thread closing soon. Just wanted to wish you all luck in your endeavors, and that the animosity and toxicity of this thread is let go after a while. Our community has literally been fractured, and I just hope we can fix it.
Peace and love to y’all,
Jaya
It’s no more fractured than every other debate on the forums, and will be completely forgotten within a week of the Fractured release.
Two questions for you.
1. How does a title and a t-shirt give them an advantage over anyone else?
2. What the heck is a “squish”?
It sends the message that their pain is somehow greater than the pain of the many people who have gotten screwed by previous nerfs. It offers them special snowflake status and that’s the wrong move to make here.
There’s a difference between nerfing areas that were being abused (for want of a better word) and recognizing the achievements people made in content that is being removed.
SAB World 2. It’s the same situation. People achieved getting through. Then they changed the content making it easier for others to get through, but those who got through while it was very hard got nothing to show for their accomplishment.
Same situation. No recognition.
No, not the same. SAB world 2 was bugged. The difficulty was higher than they intended. While a select few made it through before the fix, it was never intended to be that tough.
Fractals to 50 was meant to be tough from the outset. A few excelled, as expected, while many didn’t make it that far, also as expected. This is a situation where 31 – 50 is being replaced, so why not recognize the few that excelled under intentionally tough circumstances? I won’t get a title, but I won’t lose anything either because I hadn’t earned it so it doesn’t bother me in the least.
Yeah, it was super tough and people weren’t intended to get through it. 51 – 80, people weren’t intended to get through it, but they did.
More importantly, what happens if the new content is significantly more difficult to complete than it ever was before because of the new mechanic.
Should people be recognized for completing inferior content?
Two questions for you.
1. How does a title and a t-shirt give them an advantage over anyone else?
2. What the heck is a “squish”?
It sends the message that their pain is somehow greater than the pain of the many people who have gotten screwed by previous nerfs. It offers them special snowflake status and that’s the wrong move to make here.
There’s a difference between nerfing areas that were being abused (for want of a better word) and recognizing the achievements people made in content that is being removed.
SAB World 2. It’s the same situation. People achieved getting through. Then they changed the content making it easier for others to get through, but those who got through while it was very hard got nothing to show for their accomplishment.
Same situation. No recognition.
It’s even possible that the changes will make it even harder than it was before to get through. So should they be getting recognition for completing inferior content?
(edited by Kal Spiro.9745)
I think the word “compensated” is the wrong word. “Recognized” fits much better. Let them have a well earned title, an article of clothing, a hat maybe… who knows. I can’t see any reason whatsoever to deny at least some form of permanent recognition.
And what of the people who had their bags nerfed and lost hundreds of gold because of it? What of the people who redeemed skins before they were made tradeable and got stuck with non tradeable versions? What of the people who did SAB tribulation mode before they made it way easier? These players got nothing. Why should fractal players enjoy a unique advantage over all of them when they don’t even lose anything tangible?
This isn’t the first time something is changed and it won’t be the last. That’s just the nature of an MMO. You don’t see World of WarCraft players complaining about the squish happening with the new expansion. In fact, most of them are celebrating it. Instead of obsessing over losing an irrelevant number why not be happy that fractals are finally going to get fixed?
Two questions for you.
1. How does a title and a t-shirt give them an advantage over anyone else?
2. What the heck is a “squish”?
1) The fractal people would have a unique advantage over the bag people and the SAB people in being compensated where they weren’t. Getting compensated even with a title is an advantage over someone in a similar situation but entirely different circumstance that didn’t.
2) I’m unfamiliar with WoW
I think the word “compensated” is the wrong word. “Recognized” fits much better. Let them have a well earned title, an article of clothing, a hat maybe… who knows. I can’t see any reason whatsoever to deny at least some form of permanent recognition.
And what of the people who had their bags nerfed and lost hundreds of gold because of it? What of the people who redeemed skins before they were made tradeable and got stuck with non tradeable versions? What of the people who did SAB tribulation mode before they made it way easier? These players got nothing. Why should fractal players enjoy a unique advantage over all of them when they don’t even lose anything tangible? Instead of obsessing over losing an irrelevant number why not be happy that fractals are finally going to get fixed?
QFE
I think the word “compensated” is the wrong word. “Recognized” fits much better. Let them have a well earned title, an article of clothing, a hat maybe… who knows. I can’t see any reason whatsoever to deny at least some form of permanent recognition.
I honestly don’t have a problem with that. If ANet wanted to recognize it, then fine. The problem is that it seems pretty clear, based on everything that is going down, how they’re dealing with it, and the simple fact that they’re not bringing it up that they have no intention of doing that.
The problem I have is with the people that are acting like they deserve this and that ANet is obligated to do it for them. That I have a problem with, because it’s simply not true.
I don’t think we can fairly say that they have no intention of doing it now, regardless if that crossed their minds initially. I mean, look… both sides have (at least it appears so) come together with an agreement about what would be considered a nice, reasonable solution for the discontent. Come on, that’s a huge step. The first thread or four we made the U.S. House of Representatives look like Hello Kitty Island for Pete’s sake. It’s possible that right now a couple of folks in Seattle are designing the very first items in the =V= line of personal clothing!
Just as Fungal says, yes, I think we can say they have no intention.
@manu if this was your Argument how the competition works than the Argument to take us away our scale 81 is invalid because it doens’t matter for the competition
you understand my Point?
As i said, this is only my idea – we should see how the leaderboard will work.
Still, if there is no level 81 – it stops at 50 now – surely they can’t leave you at a level that isn’t there anymore.
And probably they decided to reset to 30 cause the competitive aspect starts there, so whoever is below 30 will have to work to get to 30, and who was at least 30 can begin the competitive part.
And they probably didn’t see the fractals we had previously as a competition – officially it wasn’t one after all, whileas they’re recognizing the new fractal model as a competition and putting leaderboards.
But, again, these are just suppositions. Until they reveal how those leaderboards will work, we won’t even be able to understand the reason behind them.
They’re dropping everyone to 30 because it’s the first level that these people completed that still exists in the current mechanics. All levels past 30 have new mechanics and are therefore not the same levels they have completed before. They can’t leave them higher than 30 because those levels will no longer exist as they currently are.
This thread is not about the validity of personal reward level. It is about the reset. Keep it on topic, fungal.
I’d ask you to do the same considering you’re on here clamoring for titles and town clothes.
You got plenty of rewards out of doing high level fractals already. Why exactly do you think you deserve more?
We are discussing what we think we can reasonable ask for in compensation for our lost levels. Also, I wouldn’t get any of the rewards. So, I’m trying to show compassion for my fellow fractal player.
Why exactly are you so against showing compassion and understand toward those people who are losing something they will miss?
Nothing. There is nothing that you can ask for that is reasonable because it is not reasonable to ask for compensation for something like Fractal Level. It has nothing to do with compassion or understanding.
You are being reduced from your current difficulty level to the first level before all the other difficulty levels change to entirely new mechanics. So effectively you are in a level that will no longer exist, so you’re being moved to the first one that you’ve successfully completed that will still exist.
You don’t deserve to be compensated for that.
I think the word “compensated” is the wrong word. “Recognized” fits much better. Let them have a well earned title, an article of clothing, a hat maybe… who knows. I can’t see any reason whatsoever to deny at least some form of permanent recognition.
I honestly don’t have a problem with that. If ANet wanted to recognize it, then fine. The problem is that it seems pretty clear, based on everything that is going down, how they’re dealing with it, and the simple fact that they’re not bringing it up that they have no intention of doing that.
The problem I have is with the people that are acting like they deserve this and that ANet is obligated to do it for them. That I have a problem with, because it’s simply not true.
The simple fact of the matter is that no one “deserves” anything for having gotten to a high level Fractal. No one deserves to be rewarded, special, because they reached 50 or 80, because they did those things for their own purposes. It was a bragging right. It wasn’t officially supported by ANet, as indicated by the fact that those rewards didn’t already exist.
If you want to be recognized for your achievement open the fractal entry window and take a screenshot of your level, and cherish that for all time, because it’s the only thing you’ll ever have to remember those things, and it’s the only thing you deserve too.
so what if they said they never intended to let ppl have more than 30 Gold would you say hey take a screenshoot of your Money they never intended you to go there..
man this dungeon is designed till 80 with all Level scaling from Mobs and rewards from daily chests … so don’t tell we we’re never intended to go there it’s just not true…
WHY would anet design somthing if they don’t intend Players to go there?
It was a nonsensical argument in the other thread, and it’s still one in this thread. Gold and a Level in what amounts to a minigame are not relatable.
They DIDN’T design it for anything more than a thing to do. Fractals was an experiment, and the last almost year of them have been little more than Beta for the system since it turned out to be so successful.
You don’t get to keep your stuff from beta, and you often if not usually don’t get anything special for being in beta. Beta is over and they are actually making something of the game now. So everyone gets bumped back.
You’re not losing anything though. That’s why your gold analogy doesn’t make sense. Gold can be used to get things you want, Fractal Levels are good for nothing. And moving forward you won’t even be playing the same content that you were bumped back from.
@manu
how can it be considered a competition if some start at 30 and some start at 0?
so the competition part doesn’t seem to be honest.. otherwise they would have reseted all to 0…this would have been better for me since I would have understood it at least and I would have had more Support from all 0-30 guys that don’t care now:)
Um, because the people starting at 0 are new? Really? It’s a competition with the people who were already competing because they do still feel bad for taking away your levels.
Would you prefer they take away all your levels and make you start from level 1 all over again? Really?
You’re just arguing to argue at this point.
The simple fact of the matter is that no one “deserves” anything for having gotten to a high level Fractal. No one deserves to be rewarded, special, because they reached 50 or 80, because they did those things for their own purposes. It was a bragging right. It wasn’t officially supported by ANet, as indicated by the fact that those rewards didn’t already exist.
If you want to be recognized for your achievement open the fractal entry window and take a screenshot of your level, and cherish that for all time, because it’s the only thing you’ll ever have to remember those things, and it’s the only thing you deserve too.
I’d say there is a pretty clear reason why ANet has not weighed in on this one. They have no interest, nor intention of doing anything about this.
People threw themselves against a wall for months for next to no benefit to themselves. They did it for a challenge. Ok, so if they did it for their own reasons, why should the be rewarded now by someone else. They did a difficult thing, that wasn’t specifically supported by ANet, for bragging rights. Why should ANet now give them recognition when that recognition never existed before?
ANet never really put a lot of thought into Fractals. It was an experiment that they’ve only now started to really think about and improve. You should consider all the time up to Fractured as Fractals Beta, and be glad that the wipe is only taking you back to 30, rather that to 1.
Now ANet IS supporting your struggle, and you should expect potentially better compensation for your efforts going forward. But no one cares about your efforts before, because they were your efforts for your reasons, and only you can reward yourself for that.
Resetting levels is not supportive.
You don’t have proof that it was not intended.
We HAVE proof that it was designed as an unlimited dungeon. Why would we night try to make it as far as possible?
If they didn’t intended to go past 50, why was there no hard cap at 50?
I’m sorry, but your asking questions and making assertions that have nothing to do with my post.
I used the word intention once in my post, and the intention I was talking about was compensation for people. They don’t intend to compensate you, because they don’t care about the efforts you put in.
You’re right, it was an “unlimited” dungeon. And you were free to do so. But they didn’t really support it, as indicated by the fact that they didn’t really reward it. Yes rewards were improved up to 50, but that was an algorithm, not an actual attempt by ANet to make it better, nor encourage anyone to do it. And there was no encouragement after 50, that was just people doing what they wanted.
I didn’t say they didn’t intend you do go past 50, I said they didn’t support it. They didn’t give you incentive, you gave that to yourself. They didn’t give you incentive to go even as far kitten, you gave that to yourself. They have no responsibility to compensate you for something you did on your own for your own reasons.
To all the Defender from Anet taking away my legit Progress what you think of this.
Update news: Skritt burglars arriving! They have a complete new currency the platinum from now on every item will be sold for platinum not for Gold!!therefor your Gold will be reseted to 30 Gold wich is the cost you Need to buy your new platinumtradingpostlicence. Reason is we want all Players to start on even ground!
•Asking to keep/convert your old Gold would be, in effect, gaining Money you didn’t earn.
•All you have lost is a meaningless number, which is visible only to you (and not even your group) Your gear is intact as is every reward you ever gained from your Gold with the exception of the total number aquired.
•Implementing a special snowflake reward as such is a terrible idea, and a slippery slope. Giving special “legacy” awards to farmers/Flippers and Tradingpostbotrunners opens up a whole can of worms regarding changed content "reimbursementI in this case I could understand your Argument:)
How can you compare an actual monetary unit, used to pay for travel, repairs, equipment and materials, to a level in a minigame that can’t be used for anything of value?
I’d say there is a pretty clear reason why ANet has not weighed in on this one. They have no interest, nor intention of doing anything about this.
People threw themselves against a wall for months for next to no benefit to themselves. They did it for a challenge. Ok, so if they did it for their own reasons, why should the be rewarded now by someone else. They did a difficult thing, that wasn’t specifically supported by ANet, for bragging rights. Why should ANet now give them recognition when that recognition never existed before?
ANet never really put a lot of thought into Fractals. It was an experiment that they’ve only now started to really think about and improve. You should consider all the time up to Fractured as Fractals Beta, and be glad that the wipe is only taking you back to 30, rather that to 1.
Now ANet IS supporting your struggle, and you should expect potentially better compensation for your efforts going forward. But no one cares about your efforts before, because they were your efforts for your reasons, and only you can reward yourself for that.
Alright, so they’re changing Agony. Based on the description I’m going to assume it will function much like MF works now. You use Agony Drops and after a certain number of them you gain 1% AR. Each AR % the number of drops needed for the next AR % increases. If the access to drops is administered well it will probably be a very fair and reasonable way to get the needed AR for whatever level you’re running.
The question, though, is what happens to all the gear and upgrades that are already being used with AR? What happens to the people who went to all the trouble of upgrading their gear to get the AR they have now?
I’m not one of them, I think I might have access to level 6, maybe, and I have no AR gear nor upgrades. I’m just curious what the situation it supposed to be for those people, because they definitely put in a lot of work to get what they have.
I would much rather they be tradeable. I’ve got a whole bunch of them I’d love to sell on the trading post, and I know a ton of other veterans who do too. I have eleven characters, guess which ones can use them. They are a waste of space for those who have them, and a nearly unattainable goal for those who want/can actually use them.
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