Guild Wars 2

Sporadicus.1028:

Dog face.9253:

So you think a grandmaster trait is just equal to a minor (and it just need 5 point!) is fine ? We really need some fix about our Adrenal Implant.

If you combine them together, the Engie traits for endurance regen far outweigh the endurance regen traits for the Ranger, both subtle (5-point and 15-point traits) and active (+50% endurance regen rate).

As for the post about a ranger signet having a +50% endurance on weapon swap: We have an elixir that breaks stuns AND gives 100% endurance back.

You describe the core of the problem: engineers need to combine traits to finally get a better effect than one minor ranger trait.
While one grandmaster trait alone should be better already.

So you describe the exact reason why this isn’t fair now.

This stronger effect is exactly how it should be with ONLY the grandmaster trait.
That alone should outperform a minor trait for rangers.

Of course it should end up better than the minor ranger trait.
But it should do that with just the grandmaster trait alone, because the rangers already get so much from their minor 5 point trait!

So ALL current engineer endurence effects should be balled up in that one grandmaster trait, while the other traits get different effects alltogether…

Personally I love the kits the most.
And yes I love the versatility we have in theory.

These 2 facts alone make me use 3 or 4 kits in most my builds.
That’s where the versatility lies: in the constant swapping of kits. Going from one skill to another.
Like stacking confusion from Bomb Kit to Tool Kits Prybar back to pistol #3.

Or aligning blocks, or cripples and pulls, etc etc.

In theory we can be so incredibly versatile, and that’s the fun of the profession for me.

In practice however, half my kit skills don’t work properly or are too weak even if they do work.

To make it worse: the traits needed for a versatile kit build are scattered so much over the tree that it’s impossible to get everything needed to make it work.

And lastly the kits hold me back to get other skills that are often needed in certain situations, like a stun breaker or boons elixirs can give.

Suggestions for solutions:
- fix kit bugs obviously
- add a stun breaker to one kit at least
- merge more traits effecting kits, make their effect stronger. Juggernaut for Tool Kit, Med Kit and EG as well for example.
- increase Elixir Gun damage, or make it aoe of some sort
- change the mechanic of Flamethrower #2 into something that either explodes on impact, or can be detonated.
- increase casting speed of Tool Kit #1 and 2
- Let Kit refinement give an aoe heal on swapping to Med Kit. What is the logic behind a bomb on a heal kit anyway??? Or give it a freeze, or a knockback, or an immobilize something to get attackers of you at least.
-…

Engineers are already versatile, but they are also very weak when they use a versatile build.
The sad truth is that engineers are only good in non-versatile builds…

Eviator.9746:

So if I understand correctly your idea is that all boons in general add to survivability in one way or another, and in aggregate that has significant impact. I suppose I could buy that, but it’s not the full story. In order to keep those boons up you need to have all of your utilities be elixirs and you need to spam all your elixirs when they’re off cooldown. That makes it a VERY specialized build, not something I would consider versitile. And it still doesn’t really help teammates, which you also said.

You touch upon the heart of the matter.

The devs claim engineers need to pay a price in damage, for their versatility.
While in reality, there are no versatile engineer builds that do good.

There are only good specified engineer builds.

If you make a versatile engineer build, you can never get the traits to make it work.
You always lose on many aspects of your ‘versatility’, ending up weak at every task.

Every engineer build that people had succes with, is in reality a very specified build, focused on a certain task, function, or type of damage.
It is never a ‘versatile’ build.

Not more than other professions are versatile simply by design of the game not having a trinity…

I only create versatile builds myself, and I have yet to find one that can stand up to any of the succesfull specified builds engineers have!

1. Go to the Mists and specc Grenadier trait.

2. Equip Mortar, and of course grenades.

3. Hit different armor target dummies till they are destroyed. Use grenades first, than mortar.

4. Untrait Grenadier and do the same.

You will see that a target dummy takes AGES to kill with Mortar.
Everyone saying that Mortar is good for keep defense etc isn’t seeing the numbers right. They see lots of numbers and figure the damage is good, but it simply is not.

Mortar can’t kill anything fast at all.

Even compared to UNTRAITED grenades it loses.

To make it worse:
Mortar is stationary
Mortar is sloooow
Mortar is fragile and easily destroyed.
Mortar has SHORTER range than traited grenades.
Mortar can’t be used min range, where grenades can! Not even the klnockback or the heal, what would make perfect sense…

Plusses:
Mortar has a heal, but it will never keep anyone alive in a siege I’m afraid.
Mortar has a knockback.

Seriously: go test it on dummies in whatever gear you chose.
Mortar just has pityfull damage.

It would be great if at least Mortar got buffed to something more sturdy and usefull.
Currently we have NO other ranged option than grenades with the Grenadier trait.
Everything else is totally underwhelming in terms of range and damge compared to even the nerfed grenades.

It’s so very shamefull that an elite skill is completely overshadowed by a basic kit like grenades.
And grenades aren’t even too strong… it’s just that Mortar is so dam weak.

Even untraited I think grenades would have more utility than the stationary, terribly slow and easily destructible Mortar.

Rune of the centaur suffers from this bugged 15 sec cooldown as well.

On topic:

engineers can put up regen easy enough.
They can also make good use of might runes etc, as described.

But as far as the important boons go, I don’t see how we are good at buffing at all.
We can give boons by throwing elixirs mostly, and those are all random as hell.
For me that makes the whole ‘boon’ idea for allies incredibly unreliable.
I will give you ‘something’ but that could be stealth when we want stability, swiftness when we need protection… etc.

Of everything recently said by the dev’s about engineers, there is sooooo much I don’t see:
- what is ‘good at medium range’ in pvp suppuosed to mean?
- what is a strong engineer build that is so versatile that it needs nerfing? There are only strong engineer builds focused on one specific task…
- buffing by boons? Euh, random and all that…

bit confused at these comments from the dev’s.
It would actually take a lot of changes before the engineer is even remotely what they say it is…

Retaliation does not reflect any damage at all.
The target, with retaliation up, still takes the same ammount of damage as he would have without retaliation.

Retaliation does some damage per hit, it’s a fixed ammount. Regardless if the hit on you was 3k or 300 …
The fixed ammount is pretty low.

So what makes retaliation good if it’s a low ammount and even worse: if it doesn’t mitigate any damage at all?
It’s a proc per hit, so anyone who does a lot of hits on you will get a lot of those low retaliation procs hitting them back.
It can ammount to a lot in a very short time… if they hit fast enough.

1. un-equip the kit

2. go to traits page or another

3. return to equip page and it should be sorted.

I agree it should be fixed, but that’s how I work around it for now.

2 people mentioned building for cc, and the fact that stability nulifies that build.
If this build is given as an example for what an engineer can be good at, I ask you this:

to get this build working, you sacrifice stun breaker, cond removal and quite a lot of damage.

In other words: IT IS NOT VERSATILE!

This is the case for almost every good engineer build:
IT IS NEVER VERSATILE!

Every good build we have is focused on one thing or another.

So no: I don’t want to see footage of a good engineer build, or of a dev playing a standard good engineer build.
I want to see footage of a good VERSATILE build.
And I want to see it at medium range in pvp on top of that…

That would impress me.

FT works most on power.

If you use EG for damage, you’re actually using it for the weakness and perhaps some poison.
Even in a full condition build it appears that the EG has far too low damage by itself.

So these 2 would thrive on power just the same.

Your pistols seem condition, but a large part of them still says power too.

My opinion, not based on exact math: use a mix, or go for power if that’s easier to come by.

While you’re at it: show me what that ‘medium range’ in a pvp fight is.
Very interested to see how the dev’s play that in pvp.

Most of all: show me a versatile build that indeed deserves a tax on it’s damage.
Show me a versatile build that can compete with the best builds of both engineers AND other professions. Just by being so versatile it’s awesome!

You know whzat the difference is between a player who plays too bad to defend himself and a thief who plays bad?

The thief can kill others, while the bad other player will always die himself!

That’s the reason why people complain.
Thieves can be countered yes, but they have it way too easy to kill others in WvW.

You call players bad if they can’t defend against a thief.
But you forget that it’s the thief that has the advantage, being bad or good, he still has the advantage…

Culling is part of that advantage.
If they can’t fix culling, than they have to adjust stealth till it’s fixed.
Harsh, but that’s the only fair thing to do.

Thief can re-stealth is fair?
ok, sure it’s fair.
But if he can re-stealth, than why does he need that burst?
Re-stealth to re-damage… that’s the point of re-stealthing.
Either one stealth and burst, or restealth and more steady damage bit by bit.

In spvp you can stow the med kit.
In pve or WvW you can’t… not by the same button.

Maybe those saying there is no problem only spvp nd never noticed.

Felicela.2810:

Is it wrong I just rolled my second one? I love this class despite its flaws, and decided I hated the way my current one looked(Sylvari) so rerolled a new one.

despite all my critisism, I can totally understand that.

I love the profession, I really do.
And I would want nothing more than seeing engineers have acces to versatile builds that can perform well just because they are versatile…

Add at least one stun breaker to kits.
Merge traits effecting kits more.
Increase ranges on several kit abilities.
Increase damage on a few kits.
…

That’s where our versatility lies.
That’s where the improvements are needed.

Not putting it all down by the way.

We ARE versatile, and for me that’s fun!

But when we specc to be versatile, we end up being weak in just everything we do.
Too weak…

I hardly see versatile engineer builds.
I mostly see specified engineer builds focusing on mostly one task.
Why? Because the versatile builds suck in design and need to get traits all over the place to be worth it… plain and simple.

luckywaldo.6089:

It’s versatile because you can mix and match the different abilities more easily. I can place down a big ol bomb, healing turret, then fire bomb, and then swap to pistol shield, and get 3x blast finishers from bomb explosion, turret explosion, and magnetic inversion for 9 stacks of might on the group, plus the bit of regeneration from while the turret was up.

I can use confusion bomb, then pistol #3 for more confusion and blind so I can take a confused hit for free, then back to smoke bomb for 4 more seconds of free confused hits.

I can put down a super elixir field and then use elixir bombs to heal everyone in melee range while doing still doing damage.

A lot of skills are buggy and/or underwhelming, but the ability for a variety of creative skill combinations is there. At no point do I feel like I am using skills simply because they are off cooldown, like I do with most other classes. That is versatility.

The hybrid tax though is bullkitten.

So you:

- trait elixir infused bombs for 30 points in Inventions
- use a healing turret
- use an elixir gun
- use a pistol and shield

that’s a nice healing support build, with indeed some confusion and blind stacking.
Still mostly support in that regard, your confusion isn’t going to kill them.

Your damage is rather low I assume, compared to other professions at least.
Certainly compared to dps focused engineer builds.

Fun build, have used simular myself.
I can’t kill many players with it by the way, mostly support my team IF they stay stationary and weaken npc’s.

Now for the question: you support, but where is your versatility?

And can’t a guardian out-support you rather easy?

Asura also have more issues with LoS for their own skills.

When I drink elixir S on my Asura engineer, my movement actually staggers and stutters because of issues with the running path.
I can barely move because the game can’t handle a shrunk asura model running.

Seriously, it’s buggy as hell.

Just one example, there are more.

I see one big advantage for Asura: they are so tiny it’s hard to recognise what they are doing.

And if you click your target, because of the utterly unclever tab targeting system, than of course they are harder to pick than bigger characters.

For all the rest it’s a trade-of: you have issues hitting them, they have the same issues hitting you from so low…

waeren.9743:

So if we follow tf2 logic then thieves will be able to oneshot people with a backstab? Sounds like a good trade to me!

why on earth do people always think it has to be ALL this or ALL that?

Just use the part that make sense and not the other part that doesn’t fit here at all.
Try thinking instead of arguing for the sake of arguing.

You know well enough that was NOT what I was saying.
Neither was the one explaining the mechanic that could be usefull.

The mechanic could prove a very balanced solution for the issues with stealth in this game.
Of course it would have to be balanced for THIS game and not follow the balancing of another game.

So who cares if those TF2 thieves one-shot others or not.
That’s a balancing issue for that game.
It’s perfectly viable to use a mechanic of another game without implementing all other features as well.
This whole thread is a reaction AGAINST such things as one-shotting… so what are you on about?

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Implement it the way Team Fortress 2 did with their Spy class. Cloaking is not removed on taking damage. However, if suffering a condition in that game, the Spy – though still cloaked – is “revealed” by the condition. If they are set on fire, you see their silhouette fringed in flame; if they are bleeding, they remain cloaked but leave a trail of blood.

Furthermore, cloaking in Team Fortress 2 uses a timing device. One version of the cloaking device counts down at a certain rate while cloaked and will only recharge when uncloaked. The other cloaking device counts down to the uncloaked state much more quickly than the first. However, unlike the first cloaking device, it will recharge while the Spy remains motionless. Lastly, the Spy can not attack while cloaked. The Spy must first remove their cloak, then they can attack.

Implement similar mechanics in GW2. Thieves – when stealthed – will use up 1 point of initiative per unit of time (whatever that may be; 1 per second, 1 per 2 seconds, etc.). Stealth then becomes a trade-off of cost:benefit. If the Thief wants to remain stealthed for a longer period of time, they will use up more of their initiative, thus decreasing the effectiveness of their attacks from lack of same. If they want to burst with a high initiative pool, they won’t be able to stealth for as long.

With Thieves no longer permitted to attack from stealth, the reveal debuff could be eliminated altogether along with stealth durations of skills. As long as the Thief wisely manages their initiative resource, they will be free to enter and exit stealth for as often and as long as that resource remains available. This will reward skilled Thieves while leaving the unskilled button mashers without stealth or without the ability to burst an opponent.

This is a pretty good mechanic I think.
We all know that if their damage would be less, we wouldn’t have that many issues with the stealth as such…

The proposed mechanic seems a decent base for a trade of between stealth, movement and damage abilities.

I can accept the nerf IF they would boost the usefulness of our other kits and builds by a lot.

Because the sad part for me isn’t the nerf to grenades.
It’s the fact that after the nerf, grenades are STILL the best damage we have

Irikami.6270:

Well, the engi is not the best DPS of the game, but is really good in “stay alive”, with a cond pistol build i can easily kill any class, even in x2 against 80 geared. The nerfs was really sad but is not the end of the world, if you know how to use the engi you’ll see how peoples die fast and u not. I think the biggest problem of the engii is between the chair and the monitor. Just saying.

actually no.
To take your own example: if another profession builds to stay alive, he will most likely have an easier time doing that.
While still being more dangerous.

That’s what it is about: we can do it all, but we can’t do anything best.
Not even being ‘versatile’.

For every single thing an engineer can do well, he has to sacrifice almost every other aspect of ‘being versatile’.
And than he still is beaten in that specific task by other professions building for the same.

We need more traits that work on more kits at the same time for example.
Traits are scattered all over, it’s very hard to come up with a versatile build that is not weak in everything.

For example: why isn’t there a single kit with a stun breaker?
This means we are losing one skill slot right there, which immediately means the build ends up a lot less versatile.

We have several ways of condition removal, but only a few of those are strong enough to rely on.

So an engineer build in pvp (and one could argue in pve as well) would need both a stun breaker and a condition removal that is reliable for example.
This means you have NO versatility left.

Another example: grenades are incredibly weak without going 30 points in explosives.
So any build wanting ranged aoe needs to sacrifice 30 points just to have that one task.
This means your build will never end up being ‘versatile’.

The best engineer builds are the most specified ones:
rifle power-crit
Tank cat
grenadier
p/p condition
boon-might support
healing support

None of these builds are good at much more than their main purpose.
And for the record: all of these builds can be done better by other professions.

Engineers have no versatile builds that come close to these in effectiveness.
THAT is the main problem.

It’s not the we aren’t versatile.
it’s that when we build for being so versatile, we’re still not as strong as other professions…

It’s ok that we are not strong as other professions if we build for a specific task (boons, damage, tank, etc…)

But it’s not ok that the weakest of the weaker engineer builds… are exactly the ‘versatile’ ones.

Lite.3819:

Engineer

The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.

Engineers are known as the king of crowd control and excels in versatile and boon if built for it.

Engineers can not build for being versatile, as you put it.
They CAN build to be boon buffers, or build to be aoe’ers, or build to be bursters, or build to be heal support, or build to be cc… but at any of these fields they’ll perform worse than other professions who own that field.

If an engineer builds for ‘versatility’ he ends up being good at nothing, since no build actually supports this versatility.
Our traits are all over the place, our skill slots are limited, our kits are too single purpose.

So an engineer either:
- builds for a specific task and is second best at it.
- builds for being versatile and isn’t good at anything which takes away the whole strenght of being versatile.

Solution: make our traits support REAL versatility, make our kits better, and most of all: make sure that the most versatile engineer builds become the most usefull. Where now the most specified builds hold that crown.

According to what the dev’s claim, I would like this to be true:

if an engineer builds for versatility, he has to be so versatile he can compete with the more specified builds of other professions.

Untill this statement is true (it currently is not) any mention of paying a price for being versatile, is a slap in the face and a poor excuse.

Engineers should be at their best in a versatile build, while the truth is that they are at their very weakest in a versatile build…
The only engineer builds that come close to what others can do, are those builds that specify as far as they possibly can.

We are not versatile and strong.
We are either versatile and weak, or specified and still not as strong as others.
That’s how we are designed.

Either way, we lose!

The way mine works, I feel you are better of with the bomb kit and Big Ole Bomb.
I admit throwing the mine is very very usefull and fun, but as you say: people can avoid it too easily.

To be honest: if BoB would become a thrown bomb, or mine, we could make that the tool belt skill of bomb kit and be done with it…
Bomb kit could use at least one skill that is different in mechanic: something else than drop a bomb at your feet for once…

1. Engineer can be anything: burst, support, sustained, bunker…
The thing is: we can NOT be the best at any of these!

The best engineer bunker is outdone by other bunkers, the best engineer burst is outdone by other burst. We are not the best support, and we aren’t even the ‘Kings of versatility’ as the devs put it for ele’s…
So even if we use a totally non-versatile build, we still can’t achieve the results of other professions.

The dev’s decided we have to pay a dps price because we can be many things… but they forgot that we can’t be everything at once.

2. Being ‘versatile’ means we can be several roles IN THE SAME BUILD!
Well, if you do that you will find that your dps is rather low just because you can’t trait for all your versatile aspects at once.

Our so called versatile builds simply are not strong enough. Certainly not to warrant any ‘penalty’.

We are nerfed by design if we build versatile.
There is no need whatsoever to nerf our dps even more, there simply is NO versatile engineer build that can potentially have too much damage.

3. So we lose either way: build for one specific task and you can’t compete against the other specified builds.
Build for versatility and you are too weak in any field to be competetive.

Engineers are not broken, and I still have fun with mine.
But they sure have issues and need some significant improvements.

Explode on impact and increase the range to at least 900.

That way it is usefull in short range AND long range.

Most important part: explode on impact.

Any other solution feels like needlessly complicating things.

Ever cleared mobs before a veteran?
By the time the veteran is at 50% at least one mob will have respawned on top of you.
Usually sooner, and usually more than one…

Kill 3 normal mobs, kite the fourth = guarantee to run into the first mob you killed again.

Many other examples to be found.

At this point, I defenitely would swap the elite for a normal kit.

But I would prefer if the OTHER elites would get some love instead.
Mortar could be great and real ‘engineerlike’ but it needs several improvements first.
Elixir X shouldn’t be a boring copy that’s random like this either.

DesertRose.2031:

Skills that pull foes seem to malfunction if there’s a height difference between the caster and the target.

I’ve pulled people of walls and onto rocks yesterday, and I have seen other pulls stop halfway on flat ground because there was grass or something.

It’s not as simple as you make it sound, I’m afraid.

Numbers are only part of the story.

It’s a psychological thing: engineer kits were troubled with anything from lower damage to bugs to weird misleading tooltips.

The 2 kits that were considered pretty good were bombs, and mostly grenades.
Happened to be these were also the 2 most boring kits since ability #1 to #5 all use the exact same mechanic.

Love -hate relation there, but grenades were the highest damage, longest range. Simply put: they were the most used engineer kit.
Grenadier the most praised and used elite trait by far.

Now what did the patch do instead of listing bug fixes for the other kits?
It lists a 30% nerf to grenade #1.

This sounds bad, nothing more to it.
Numbers are only part of the story. And frankly it’s hardly relevant that the 30% nerf is far less in reality…
Of all the kits the best one gets a harsh sounding ‘30% nerf’.

People feel disapointed and betrayed even.

kit refinement always has the same cooldown as the spell it copies, so it can’t proc each time if you swap often.

On the Tool Kit:

previously the cooldown reduction of the trait did not work on the gear shield and magnet.
That is whay the patch changed: the cooldown reduction the trait offers.

The cripple works on Throw Wrench and on the FIRST hit of #1 (there are 3 of wich the third hits bloody hard).
Smack-whack and Twack or something.

This is enough for those 3 hits from #1 by the way: the cripple is constantly applied.

If you pull and want to use box of nails or # 1 after, for cripple… they’ll dodge before you can hit.
That’s what people do when you pull them: they immediately dodge and run away.

So put down box of nails first, or use kit refinement and swap to the kit immediately before pulling.
Or use throw wrench before or after, but reember they WILL dodge straight after pull if they can. Luckily throw wrench hits on the way back too

I tried out ‘throw elixir B’ for testing yesterday.
Most were swiftness buffs, some mights, and not even 1 in 10 was retaliation which is what we hope for the most when using this.

‘Throw elixir S’ gives 2 completely different options: when you want stealth than stability does nothing for you.
When you want stability than stealth is a waste.
For example on point defense, or supply camp fighting in WvW wich is the same: you want stability there, while stealth is actually counterproductive because you don’t count anymore.

Elixir X is the same issue: when you want juggernaut than the whirlwind doesn’t help you.

Almost every elixir has these random issues.
I agree the fun of it wears of very fast.

I can understand some random effects, some element of surprise, but it should be in the same order.

Was it so hard to make the randomness less random but still ‘exciting’?
For example: protection or retaliation both serve the same situation of being attacked.
Swiftness can help you escape, and invisability can do that better.
At least keep offensive effects together, and defensive with defensive, and escape with escape.

LegoTechnic.5910:

Mobile AoE knockback… I’d use it! Or I’d try it out, at least. Supply Crate is mainly for the daze anyway (and the net turret), so I wouldn’t mind popping mortar just to blast a group apart or off a cliff.

hardly mobile: once you set it up, it stays put.
And you better hope no ranged sees you, or it is destroyed in a few hits.
Not that you have a melee range by the way, you can not hit anything too close.
Furthest reach is 1400 since the trait still doesn’t work.

I honestly believe a mine would be a LOT more effective to do what you suggest: throw some of a cliff.

Mortars need to be positioned somewhere entirely safe, but also within reach.
There hardly ever is such a place in any fight.

Inside a keep door perhaps, for defense… but than a flamethrower or grenades are doing the job just as well.

Mortar can be stationary, but should operate without you being in it.
Just give the engineer a ‘pet skill bar’ to operate the mortar that stands there alone.

This way it can be what it is, while the engineer still is mobile and fighting

That would be my own solution for it.

And yes: make it a bit less easy to destroy please…

Raenir.9147:

Is it just me, or does the sigil of accuracy (+5% critical chance) still does not work with kits?

it doesn’t list at all, not even when equipping pistol or rifle.
So I don’ know if it works at all, all I know it’s never listed on your character page.

Dispari.3980:

Kimbald.2697:

I’m sorry but now you are the one missing the bigger picture.
There are 7 other test tables with glasses here as well, most of those glasses are more filled than ours.

So no: it does not make sense to remove some of that one fuller glass of ours… it makes perfect sense to fill up all our other glasses first, till we are on the same level as the other tables.

You forget we’re getting weapon stats in the future. What you’re saying would just lead to nerfs later instead of now.

you don’t nerf for the future, and not a single message of A’net themselves suggests they did.
That’s your interpretation of it, their own message clearly states sigils as the main reason.

And there’s a lot they intend to do and fix for engineers.
They don’t nerf or buff according to possible changes.

First implement weapon stats, and than we’ll see how Op engineers will suddenly become.
They can nerf if it proves too strong in comparison with other professions.

Introducing weapon stats is long overdue and I would welcome it.
The other engineer kits desperately need it, and more.
But that has nothing to do with the current balancing they did.
Not according to Anet devs themselves, only according to you I’m afraid.

I doubt a protest march of 6 or 7 remaining players on each server would make that much of an impression…

Could the dev’s please test this scenario out:

one tester uses the normal Grenade Kit (yes, the nerfed one is fine), the other uses the ELITE skill Mortar.

Use different settings in terms of walls, environment, npc’s… but mostly test against each other.

Several points of testing:

- who does more damage?

- who outranges the other?

- who can fight in melee range?

- who can avoid most damage by base mechanics such as moving and dodging?

- who provides the most utility in different situations?

- who is the most easily disarmed by either death or losing it’s weapon?

Thank you, happily awaiting your most interesting results.

WvW already has the ‘upscaling’ system working for lower levels.

Outmanned should use the same system but go beyond 80!

Brinson.7289:

Grenades are useless and too risky for keep defense when they are knocking at your door.
It was pretty dangerous pre-patch because they can pull you off but now the risk doesn’t outweigh the rewards with the lowered damage.
Bombs hit pretty hard and maybe the good ol’ flamethrower through the wall might do the trick with sigil procs.
Toolkit is always fun for ensuring at least one fat kid doesn’t get away. I usually take the trait to lower the cooldown because gear shield has a VERY short CD. [around 15s]

grenades through the door break down rams as fast or faster than flamethrower does.
Either way, they aren’t worse at it.

The advantage of the grenades is that you can stand so far back nothing can touch you at all.
With flamethrower you still get hit yourself occasionaly.

For the record: I really like my engineer and not even remotely thinking of giving it up.
But I can’t understand why they don’t fix our other kits first, before ‘fixing’ our grenades and elixir gun heal…

The grenade nerf can be overcome eventually, so it’s not that.
it’s the lack of attention for the flamethrower mechanics, elixir gun damage, tool kit attack speed, pistol short range, only supply crate as elite… that kind of stuff should take priority over the rest.

Under water combat? I use bombs or grenades, first thing I do is swap out the annoying speargun… buffed or not.
How that could have taken priority over the rest is beyond me, and they do that for all professions: fixing underwater combat most avoid anyhow…

Shivenis.3761:

I still ask me how can someone throw a grenade further than a rifle shot xD

I can throw THREE grenades simultanously further than a Mortar can shoot!
And I’m a tiny Asura, go figure

Against larger groups in both WvW as pve, in keep defense aside the flamethrower, versus defenders on walls in sieges, to chase runners, against slower moving mobs and bosses in dungeons… what option does an engineer have, that comes close to grenades?

Rifle #1 and throwing the slow flying net at 1200 range?

Pistols piercing and weak aoe at 1050 if traited?

Elixir gun sloooooow cripple ball or the tickling weakness dart at 1200?

Throw wrench to criple if traited at 900?

Mortar that can’t move and dies when you look at it?

Seriously, what do engineers have?

So yes: the should BUFF the other options and kits first!
Almost every other option is lacking in either design, range, damage or plain out buggs.

Dispari.3980:

Kimbald.2697:

Dispari.3980:

Balancing in an MMO is like eyeballing pouring water in several differently shaped glasses and trying to make it even. If it turns out one has too much it’s a lot easier to take some out than to put more water in every glass. Especially since eventually it’ll overflow and get water all over the carpet, and I just cleaned that carpet.

None of the engineer glasses were filled over 2/3… the only one nearly full was the one with the grenade kit.

The carpet was safe, they needed to add water to our glasses after all.
Some glasses were leaking as well by the way, maybe they should fix those before testing too.

One thing at a time, man. If grenade is the only one that’s above the others, it makes sense to bring it down. Then deal with other things systematically.

I’m sorry but now you are the one missing the bigger picture.
There are 7 other test tables with glasses here as well, most of those glasses are more filled than ours.

So no: it does not make sense to remove some of that one fuller glass of ours… it makes perfect sense to fill up all our other glasses first, till we are on the same level as the other tables.

You don’t nerf the one build a profession has that is competetive with the larger part of other profession builds.
You buff all those builds that aren’t competetive.
Because, indeed, as you correctly point at: there is a bigger picture!
(to step back from the analogy since those things tend to lead a life of their own)

I would settle for FT#2 to explode on impact, but it’s not happening it seems.

Flamethrower has issues, it’s not as good as it could be.
It has great potential but it simply doesn’t do the trick ourtside of some pve mobs grouped together.

In pvp the mechanic of FT#1 hurts as well, not to mention the missing on zero distance is annoying as hell.
The burn misses so often because it’s applied on last hit.

The fire field is nice to shoot through, even though FT#1 isn’t a finisher so you need to swap anyhow…
But all in all both #4 and #5 have range issues: they need to have a wider radius. Simple as that.

So if the flamethrower needs reworking anyhow, which I believe it does, we might as well consider longer range for it

I can live with grenades being the only option with 1500 range IF they fix mortar and they make the 1200 options a lot better.

Traited pistols being 1050 is an insult.
And even at 1200 the elixir gun hits not hard at all, traited or not.
Rifle hits hard, too bad only #1 actually damages and the by the time the net reaches 1200 your target has is either gone or in your face…

And what aoe do we have at 1200? Piercing? Great, if they line up… pistol aoe doesn’t even reach that far.

Do these:
rework mortar, and improve the 1200 options and I won’t speak of grenades being the only 1500 range anymore.

Dispari.3980:

Balancing in an MMO is like eyeballing pouring water in several differently shaped glasses and trying to make it even. If it turns out one has too much it’s a lot easier to take some out than to put more water in every glass. Especially since eventually it’ll overflow and get water all over the carpet, and I just cleaned that carpet.

None of the engineer glasses were filled over 2/3… the only one nearly full was the one with the grenade kit.

The carpet was safe, they needed to add water to our glasses after all.
Some glasses were leaking as well by the way, maybe they should fix those before testing too.

Grenades are our biggest damage, even nerfed, they are our best aoe and they have our longest reach…
The other options need buffs to compete with this.

For starters mortar needs a rework, because that is our other option, and being an elite it should actually be better at at least something… but it isn’t. Grenades beat it in any way except maybe the knockback.

And you’re right about having not even something better for 1200 range. Rifle is good, but indeed only the basic damage actually uses that range.

You know what should have 1200 or even 1500 range?
Flamethrower #2!!!
Put it on a lower cooldown and make it long range on explosion.
Do the same range for FT #4 and you have yourself a superbe kit.
Usefull for all ranges, usefull for sieges, loads of fun versus zergs…
But not spammable so not OP.
And not all long range, so not king like grenades are.

Just an example of what I mean with ‘other options’.