Guild Wars 2

knives.6345:

Here again, I thought the definition of “fun” is different from one person to another.

I find it fun/enjoyable to farm with tons of people.
Unfortunately, my definition of “fun” is wrong based on OP’s definition of fun. kitten .

It’s a bit confusing but this is how I always look at it.

Fun Gameplay = Satisfying.

Loot/Farm = Satisfying.

You need one or the other for players to do something, but ideally you want to have BOTH.

I also find it fun to zerg farm, aoe a bunch of mobs and get lots of nice loot, it’s relaxing and SATISFYING (which can be “fun”) but the actual activity does get boring pretty quickly but it’s still by far the most rewarding thing and I want my carrots so…. zerg farm I must.

Zerg farming doesn’t need to go away, it just needs it’s priority in rewards put in the right place, easy, casual, relaxed zerg farming shouldn’t be the most rewarding thing in the game, but should still be relevant.

Harder stuff needs to be more rewarding than this though.

“Farming” isn’t a bad thing and shouldn’t be looked down upon like so many in these forums do lol.

Amadan.9451:

the problem are the players though… there are players happy with the reward system and actually doing the event, not stalling it for a deluxe box…

i think it’s not fair we ask arenanet to interfere, it’s us in the first place that have to solve this issue.
i’m really starting to hate people these days, they only care about themselves and their loot. they have no sense of community… they only care about money… and i could understand this in the real world… but with digital gold?

Arenanet SHOULD interfere, they can fix things like “being able to stall an event for more rewards” and make it so if everything in the game is materially rewarding then people would just do whatever it is they find fun while still making progress on whatever carrot they chose to chase.

Being selfish and and caring about “loot” is natural, it’s only conflicting and shows it’s ugly face when the game is designed like it is now where only a few boring tasks are the only ways to satisfy it.

Right now the game rewards this selfish behavior, it should reward teamwork and risk and fun things in the game equally and then that “greed” works in a healthy way.

zeromius.1604:

projectcedric.6951:

zeromius.1604:

At least with events their timers can be controlled. Yes, they intend on doing only the easiest events but then when they’re done they have nothing else. They’re forced to make a choice: they can either wait a really long time for these easy events to start up again or they can move onto other events. If you understand the farmer mentality you will know that they would prefer the latter. After all, time spent doing nothing could be better spent doing something even if it’s harder.

Oh I can understand farmer mentality very well. And yup, you’re right, they will opt to choose something better to do: not play the game.

Actually, this “ideal” has happened before – it’s the time between they dramatically nerfed CS farming and the new champ loots.

Personally, I cannot account to whether it made the game better or not because it was the time I left the game for a while to spend my time on doing other things I considered more rewarding.

I don’t know what your definition of rewarding is but for many the experience of the content is the reward rather than the end result of doing it. If you’ve done the content enough times then no doubt it becomes boring. This would hold true for many people but we know it doesn’t for everyone.

I actually don’t think that farmers actually hate farming and do it because they feel they have no choice. This is something that more moderate farmers like propagate. Habitual and frequent farmers are addicted to farming like an junkie would be to narcotics. Taken this into consideration we know that something doesn’t have to be fun to be addictive. There are lots of people addicted to slot machines for instance even when there are other more interesting ways to gamble like with Poker.

So if ArenaNet were to control the supply of their narcotics (the farming spots) it would probably make the addicts upset and quit. They would go play games were where it’s easier to get high. It’s the reason why games like Maple Story are so popular while offering so very little. It’s the addiction of farming and in many cases, grinding for better stats.

If you want something truly rewarding, play a really good single player game where there’s no loot. ArenaNet tries to create challenging and compelling content but the farmers don’t want that unless it comes with material rewards. They want to improve the rewards for jumping puzzles and mini dungeons. People who love this type of content will love the new loot rewards. People who hate this type of content because they don’t like jumping will hate it and complain about how it’s not fair for them. The great thing though is farmers will finally have something different to feed their addiction.

I don’t know why people this idea that farming is a bad thing and farmers are bad people with a flawed way of gaming.

Material rewards are satisfying, so is fun and engaging gameplay, ideally in an MMO you want both of these things so the game is super satisfying. Zerg farming sure as hell isn’t that fun after a while, but it sure as hell is rewarding which is satisfying (and thus can sort of be fun, opening a massive amount of loot bags yum).

Then you have other things, such as pvp which sometimes has NO rewards at all but people still do it because it’s fun (although the current pvp is arguably not fun atm but that’s irrelevant right now). Minigames are also something fun but with no rewards so people still do it.

Then you have things like regular Dynamic Events, they’re not interesting or fun, nor really that rewarding at all, thus they’re just ignored, or done because they spawn a crap ton of mobs which ARE rewarding.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to farm or getting loot, it’s satisfying, and chasing carrots is good because it always gives you something to do or work for while you play the game either to relax or find some other fun thing to do or socialize.

And no, lazy farmers would not complain about hard content/dungeons being the most rewarding unless their easymode way of farming was taken away completely and that hard content was the ONLY rewarding thing to do, which would also be stupid.

I don’t want zerg farming or easy farming removed even I enjoy it once in a while, but there just needs to be a balanced priority in risk vs rewards. I want to do something challenging and fun AND be properly rewarded for it, that’s the ideal combo (fun AND rewards). And if it’s rewarding that gets even more people to do it which makes it easier for people like me to get groups to do it, win/win/win.

And sorry for multipost spam, edit isn’t working now.

projectcedric.6951:

Erasculio.2914:

projectcedric.6951:

So ok, that will pacify the dispute between the champ-farmers and the event-doers, but doesn’t really do anything significant aside. Farmers will still farm – they will farm events now.

And it will deal with the issue mentioned above by Knote, about how Dynamic Events give little to no rewards. If fixing champions was worth all this trouble, and considering how DEs are far more important in the GW2 design than champions, fixing DEs ought to be important as well.

Farmers will always farm. Until they leave the game, which appears to be something ArenaNet doesn’t want them to do. The best we can do is not allow them to exploit, and not make the most effective way to farm something that goes against doing Dynamic Events. Just solving the dispute between farmers and other players is a boon by itself.

I agree with the DE reward but its not exclusive with better champ loots. Why can’t we have both?

Even if we do, still won’t solve any farming issue. Farming is a different issue/concept to deal with from poor reward system. Farming will occur in both poor reward systems and good reward systems.

(Farmers cannot leave the game, mannnnn. According to the book “Gamification by Design”, Achievers/Killers/Explorers -the categories under which farmers belong- makes up about an essential 25% of any MMO gamer population. Basically, they are the drivers of competitive play who provide social pressure to the rest, which are Socializers.)

Farming isn’t really an “issue”. The only reason it’s even labeled and sticks out as an activity is because reward isn’t evenly balanced/distributed throughout the game.

If doing any sort of activity in the game was equally as rewarding as zerg farming (give and take depending on the difficulty of said activity) there wouldn’t even BE a concept of “farming” really, it’d just be playing the game whether that means “farming” champions or doing a difficult dungeon with friends, or exploring and doing puzzles.

Sylv.5324:

There are two kinds of champ farms— the ones that just noodle around and wait to be found, and the ones that spawn from events.

Leave the non-event ones, loot, boxes and all, as they are. Do something about the event ones if event completion is an issue.

I don’t think that’s really an issue unless there are events that can be purposefully stalled to farm champ mobs.

Aberrant.6749:

CMF.5461:

What if they kept the high amount of champion spawns, but only awarded champion chests post event completion?

These rewards would only be given upon successful completion of the event, so the champions themselves don’t drop loot but the number of champions you kill during the event increase loot at the end.

This encourages the large group play still, for those who like it, and encourages players to complete events as well, instead of delaying events for possible failure because all they want are the champ chests.

The new champion counter chests can be awarded in stacked bags in a pop up chest like current achievement chests and the like.

This would be awesome. Especially if the rewards were added in for everyone who helped on the map (regardless of tagging). It would encourage both types of players to work together more. It would also be a good challenge to try to maximize the rewards for everyone within that time period.

Yeah, rewards need to be moved to victory so people actually WANT to win and cooperate, and all of a sudden isn’t just a DPS race to tag the mobs which is completely selfish gameplay (helping rez players actually lowers your loot).

And it actually makes failing an actual LOSS.

I don’t actually want zerg farm to be nerfed really. At most 10%.

I just want every else in the game buffed to be as rewarding and in some cases much better (harder content).

Simple as that.

Erasculio.2914:

projectcedric.6951:

So ok, that will pacify the dispute between the champ-farmers and the event-doers, but doesn’t really do anything significant aside. Farmers will still farm – they will farm events now.

And it will deal with the issue mentioned above by Knote, about how Dynamic Events give little to no rewards. If fixing champions was worth all this trouble, and considering how DEs are far more important in the GW2 design than champions, fixing DEs ought to be important as well.

Farmers will always farm. Until they leave the game, which appears to be something ArenaNet doesn’t want them to do. The best we can do is not allow them to exploit, and not make the most effective way to farm something that goes against doing Dynamic Events. Just solving the dispute between farmers and other players is a boon by itself.

Farming isn’t a bad thing, having carrots to chase isn’t a bad thing.

Whether it be a gear treadmill or a grind for legendaries/shinies and store items, it gives you something to do in the game while you find and do the things you find enjoyable.

But I agree with on exploiting, the whole “exploit early thing” is really annoying.

You’re mistaking the fact that this started happening with champ loot.

It didn’t.

It’s been like this since release mob drops >>>>>>> event rewards x100 over.

Ever since release it’s been zergs inflating the mob count in events and farming them by spamming aoe to tag for loot, that’s how it’s always been.

And it needs to stop. Remove most of the loot from mobs and push that onto events/bosses/dungeons/victory for anything, that’s how it should be.

Especially so it STOP rewarding selfish play, and rewards teamwork instead so you want to WIN, even if you fail events you still win because you tagged a crap ton of mobs and got loot.

Champ loot was a much needed thing, it actually rewards the “risk” in taking on a champ mob, which is perfect.

Now Anet needs to reward the risk for other parts of the game, right now zerg mob tagging is probably the easiest and risk-free thing in the game but is BY FAR the most profitable, this is wrong.

The hardest stuff in the game should be the most rewarding and the easiest stuff should be the least rewarding (but still rewarding, don’t make them pointless Anet) besides dailies. Casual zerg farming is pretty relaxing and fun to do sometimes, but it shouldn’t be the only thing to do to get money/mats/loot.

I want to/should be encouraged to do the hardest stuff if I want loot.

Daywolf.2630:

Ltomato.8649:

Community Erosion:

I’ll second that. There is a big difference between temple assaults in CS and zerg farming. Temple assaults players go out of their way to revive other players (apart from mid way through grenth risen priest where you really do need to WP). Zerg farming I see a lot of dead people, simply most players there want to hit the champ as much as they can and have no time for a downed player (or even a player trying to get back up).

I also saw this a lot yesterday during the new LW events, even though you only need to do a little damage to the champ to get the drop I noticed. But at temples, dragons or what have you, you often see three people reviving a downed player. But LW wasn’t as bad as like that embers farming group, I nearly felt ashamed for being on my server, downed players everywhere and no one lifting a finger. But I was there to do the full chain, wanted no part of that group or what they were doing (exploiting), just wrong.

Exactly, the game SINCE release and up even to this day rewards selfishness, I still don’t understand what they’re thinking.

The rewards need to be from victory, not “OH I TAGGED ENOUGH MOBS HUE”.

Kill 60% of the loot from mobs and put it in beating an event or dungeon or boss or w/e.

Imagine if the game actually punished you for sitting there in zerker gear spamming 1 ignoring other players and instead rewarded you for playing as a team.

Now imagine if everything in the game was fairly rewarding, feel like running around doing events with a couple friends in Queensdale at lvl 80? Decent rewards. Feel like exploring or doing puzzles? Good rewards. Feel like taking on difficult and well designed bosses with a group of people? Good rewards, and all of it from winning and not from mob drops. Feel like being lazy and zerging and easy chain of events? Decent rewards, nothing special but hey it’s laid back farming.

Then take the stuff that’s really difficult or takes more coordination like temple events, or really tough dungeons/bosses, and give them the MOST rewards (by rewards I mean just the basic stuff, gold/loot/mats/etc as well as any unique fluff items.

That would be awesome.

The easiest and laziest stuff in game should NOT be the most rewarding, it should be the least rewarding outside of dailies.

Jski.6180:

Knote.2904:

If they just made it so everything in this game is equally as rewarding this wouldn’t be an issue, because then you can do whatever you find fun and keep up with the inflation.

But no, if you don’t grind this thing every hour you’ll fall behind.

First of all fall behind what? Does grinding give you more + to your gear and weapons? If not then there behind any thing your just making it up.

Also it “wouldn’t be an issue” if you could get over your ego to have every item as fast as you can and you know play a game not work a game.

Player A takes a break from the game with 200 gold he worked his kitten off to get.

Player B keeps playing and farming.

Gold inflates, Player A comes back and his 200g is now worth half of what it was before.

When something this profitable like the zerg farming in clockwork is happening constantly, people farming it nonstop will devalue the stuff people not farming it as much have.

If the value of gold didn’t change much at all, that Player A would still have 200g that was still worth the same, sure Player B might have 500g now since he kept going, but if gold didn’t inflate then Player A’s 200 would still be worth the same 200g it was when he played.

If they just made it so everything in this game is equally as rewarding this wouldn’t be an issue, because then you can do whatever you find fun and keep up with the inflation.

But no, if you don’t grind this thing every hour you’ll fall behind.

Somoe.3621:

Knote.2904:

Manuhell.2759:

Man, people sure will defend everything.
So now a floor that makes it difficult to even see the aoe rings has become “an intentional part of making the fight even more challenging”.
So i’ll assume that even the camera problems are part of the challenge. Especially if you’re a norn, that’s like hard mode.

Or maybe they’re just things they haven’t considered and that should just be fixed.

This.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Knote.2904:

That’s great, especially hard is great. That doesn’t change the fact that ambiguous one shot mechanics are terrible by design.

To each his own. I love challenges, therefore the one shot is a great design.

One shots are fine, unclear ones aren’t.

Somoe.3621:

Telegraphs are already clear. This sound like a personal problem, not a design problem.

Except they aren’t clear, thanks for posting though.

If telegraphs aren’t clear, please explain to me how people are able to consistently predict them.

Go ahead, I’m listening.

I already said that even I beat her in my OP. I never said they were invisible I said they were clear. Apparently what I’m saying isn’t clear because you people aren’t getting it.

It’s poor design, Anet is the one that failed here, not the players.

Manuhell.2759:

Man, people sure will defend everything.
So now a floor that makes it difficult to even see the aoe rings has become “an intentional part of making the fight even more challenging”.
So i’ll assume that even the camera problems are part of the challenge. Especially if you’re a norn, that’s like hard mode.

Or maybe they’re just things they haven’t considered and that should just be fixed.

This.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Knote.2904:

That’s great, especially hard is great. That doesn’t change the fact that ambiguous one shot mechanics are terrible by design.

To each his own. I love challenges, therefore the one shot is a great design.

One shots are fine, unclear ones aren’t.

Somoe.3621:

Telegraphs are already clear. This sound like a personal problem, not a design problem.

Except they aren’t clear, thanks for posting though.

Probably because greatswords are big enough to be seen, so effort put into them isn’t wasted.

Which is why I wish we could make one hand weapons bigger….

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Knote.2904:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Knote.2904:

Kuzzi.2198:

Can people please stop making Liadri QQ threads?

Have you ever stopped to notice how many people ABSOLUTELY LOVE the Liadri fight. It is my favorite thing in the game so far.

If you like Deadeye, do Deadeye. I like Liadri the way it is, so please leave it be.

You’re not understanding what I’m saying.

I actually do like the design of the fight, I’m not bashing that. I’m bashing the UNCLEAR one shot mechanics.

I don’t want the fight changed at all, except for the aoe to be more clear, if the arena floor was one solid color for example it’d be WAY easier to see the telegraph.

The challenge of the fight shouldn’t be whether you can see aoe’s or not, it should be with the complexity of the fight.

What’s not clear about it? You have an audio and visual tell before the sky falls on you. If I remember correctly, it hits you on the 3rd second, so count 1-one thousand, 2-one thousand, then dodge.

“if the arena floor was one solid color for example it’d be WAY easier to see the telegraph” - This is why I believe it was planned this way. It adds to the challenge. You can still see the red outlines of the circles. If you think you’re not in a safe zone, dodge out of the way.

I don’t remember hearing ANY audio tells from it, if so then the sound was just buggy.

And having UNCLEAR one shot mechanics is the worst way to design a fight, that is just ridiculous. If that is truly intentional then I have no hope for future fights. There are many ways to make it more difficult than making it hard to see, and I thought that’s what the point of the visual “blur” was for (ironically that “blur” made it easier to see the aoe’s).

For example, if the aoe’s were very clear, then they could make it harder by increasing the rate they happen, increasing their size, or make them rotate around the room in a pattern, spawn even more “clones”, get creative with it, that’s where the fun of it is. Making it “unclear” on purpose is really stupid.

A good comparison is the ice fractal final boss that has the same array of aoe’s all over the ground, atleast there it’s a clear telegraph.

Imagine if a pinball game would just randomly fog the screen so you can’t see where the ball is going and you just had to “guess”, sure that’d make it way more difficult but the player has no control over what’s going to happen and it’s just completely frustrating and random, as opposed to a multitude of other clear/complex mechanics that could make it more difficult.

You forget that Anet made this fight to be especially hard. So hard that only a handful of the population and even Anet game testers could complete. It’s not a “bad” design. It’s a “challenging” design. A better term for this would be “Elite Content”, slightly ahead of “Hard Mode”.

That’s great, especially hard is great. That doesn’t change the fact that ambiguous one shot mechanics are terrible by design.

Kuzzi.2198:

Knote.2904:

The challenge of the fight shouldn’t be whether you can see aoe’s or not, it should be with the complexity of the fight.

I believe the circles being slightly tougher to spot is an intentional part of making the fight even more challenging.

Why would Anet want to make the “most challenging fight yet” have the same old easy to spot circles that everyone and their mom knows how to walk out of by now?

I hope future “difficult” bosses have no circles at all and force us to watch the animations… but oh boy how much QQ would that bring.

Unless they give us a setting to prevent the massive cloud of particle spam and make the boss big enough to even SEE the animations, then yes that will be a terrible idea and will cause nothing but frustration and QQ.

Ever fight an Asura boss with one shot mechanics telegraphed by a tiny cast animation while being spammed with particles?

Yeah…

Guess I’ll just dodge randomly and hope I don’t get one shot again, oh well it’s ok I’ll just get back up anyway lol.

The player has no control in that situation, and there’s no way to “outplay” the boss using player skill.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Knote.2904:

Kuzzi.2198:

Can people please stop making Liadri QQ threads?

Have you ever stopped to notice how many people ABSOLUTELY LOVE the Liadri fight. It is my favorite thing in the game so far.

If you like Deadeye, do Deadeye. I like Liadri the way it is, so please leave it be.

You’re not understanding what I’m saying.

I actually do like the design of the fight, I’m not bashing that. I’m bashing the UNCLEAR one shot mechanics.

I don’t want the fight changed at all, except for the aoe to be more clear, if the arena floor was one solid color for example it’d be WAY easier to see the telegraph.

The challenge of the fight shouldn’t be whether you can see aoe’s or not, it should be with the complexity of the fight.

What’s not clear about it? You have an audio and visual tell before the sky falls on you. If I remember correctly, it hits you on the 3rd second, so count 1-one thousand, 2-one thousand, then dodge.

“if the arena floor was one solid color for example it’d be WAY easier to see the telegraph” - This is why I believe it was planned this way. It adds to the challenge. You can still see the red outlines of the circles. If you think you’re not in a safe zone, dodge out of the way.

I don’t remember hearing ANY audio tells from it, if so then the sound was just buggy.

And having UNCLEAR one shot mechanics is the worst way to design a fight, that is just ridiculous. If that is truly intentional then I have no hope for future fights. There are many ways to make it more difficult than making it hard to see, and I thought that’s what the point of the visual “blur” was for (ironically that “blur” made it easier to see the aoe’s).

For example, if the aoe’s were very clear, then they could make it harder by increasing the rate they happen, increasing their size, or make them rotate around the room in a pattern, spawn even more “clones”, get creative with it, that’s where the fun of it is. Making it “unclear” on purpose is really stupid.

A good comparison is the ice fractal final boss that has the same array of aoe’s all over the ground, atleast there it’s a clear telegraph.

Imagine if a pinball game would just randomly fog the screen so you can’t see where the ball is going and you just had to “guess”, sure that’d make it way more difficult but the player has no control over what’s going to happen and it’s just completely frustrating and random, as opposed to a multitude of other clear/complex mechanics that could make it more difficult.

Kuzzi.2198:

Can people please stop making Liadri QQ threads?

Have you ever stopped to notice how many people ABSOLUTELY LOVE the Liadri fight. It is my favorite thing in the game so far.

If you like Deadeye, do Deadeye. I like Liadri the way it is, so please leave it be.

You’re not understanding what I’m saying.

I actually do like the design of the fight, I’m not bashing that. I’m bashing the UNCLEAR one shot mechanics.

I don’t want the fight changed at all, except for the aoe to be more clear, if the arena floor was one solid color for example it’d be WAY easier to see the telegraph.

The challenge of the fight shouldn’t be whether you can see aoe’s or not, it should be with the complexity of the fight.

Unclear one shot mechanic telegraphing, that’s the one thing that drives me absolutely crazy in this game, mostly in PVE but telegraphs are a huge problem in pvp as well.

Just to make this clear, I already beat the fight, and yes the main one shot mechanic (Shadow Fall) is telegraphed, BUT it’s not a very clear telegraph, the multitude of little red lines overlapping each other on the metal terrain of the arena is VERY ambiguous, and the ENTIRE learning curve of the whole fight was squinting and paying as much attention as I could trying to make out the kitten aoe telegraphs to avoid being one shot.

That is just frustrating gameplay. This spills over to other one shot mechanics in the game that has been talked about to death I’m sure already, bosses with subtle animations completely covered up by particle spam that one shots people over and over again (which in the end doesn’t matter because of LOLDOWNEDSTATE), so you spend literally half the fight fighting in downed state (which is really boring).

Anyway, please try to avoid these ambiguous telegraphs if you can Anet, as a good example Deadeye Dunwell even has his Killshot put a laser pointer telegraph, that’s good progress right there.

edit : Let me make this clear. I LOVED the idea of these boss fights, and I think it was awesome, so please don’t stop trying to make boss fights Arena Net, I actually liked the design of the Liadri fight. What I’m saying is that the TELEGRAPHS especially for ONE SHOTS need to be made crystal clear, otherwise they should NOT be one shots.

mtpelion.4562:

Knote.2904:

It’s entirely pointless because you’re paying for a convenience on an action who’s purpose is to make you money……..

The can achieve the exact same convenience as this item by just vendoring your white items.

Salvaging items almost never makes you money. The purpose is to extract materials from items that are otherwise of no use. This item removes the need for you to stock up on low level kits so it is not pointless, it just has a very limited point.

…. You either sell (or destroy) the white item for a piddly amount of copper, or you salvage it for materials worth more, thus salvaging makes you extra money.

Then you spend a ton of money for a convenience item to make that process a little bit less annoying which defeats the purpose of that function in the first place.

Maybe as a super super long investment it’s worth it, but if it payed itself off in a more reasonable amount of time it’d probably be good then.

It’d be like you went out as a hobby and collected garbage and recyclable cans/bottles for a little extra money on the side, then you buy something for 10,000 dollars that will do it automatically for you… lol

It’s entirely pointless because you’re paying for a convenience on an action who’s purpose is to make you money……..

The can achieve the exact same convenience as this item by just vendoring your white items.

I wish they would copy gw1’s ability variety and customization.

Then the game would be fun again.

Zach.3264:

So hotjoin is basically just the “fun” PvP servers where you only get glory per match. And solo queue is tournaments where you only get rewarded with a win?

You could call it that.

Imagine if Riot pulled this kind of crap lol.

Hold on guys! We’re gonna put off any updates for 2 months even with these crazy unbalances because of tournaments! Instead of just having a tournament patch that is one patch behind our primary server.

Inverted.7439:

Wow, i’m shocked. I disagree with so much of what helseth has said in this weeks rant… And i’m the one that posted his first rank on the forums. He’s just stabbing Anet repeatedly and uselessly. It doesn’t take a genius mind to figure out why Anet isn’t completely changing the meta right before PAX. You could say something like “just tweak down necro’s/spirit rangers” But if they did something like that, that could be the tipping point to make other classes viable. COMPLETELY changing the meta and the PAX teams would have what? 2 weeks to practice with a meta that is brand new? No that would just simply be stupid.

You must not understand a thing he said then, everything he said was correct. And he’s not “just stabbing Anet repeatedly” and if he was they deserve it. Just tweaking down necro/ranger won’t do jack… the game has so many fundamental problems that will prevent it from ever being a really good pvp game unless Anet pulls their head out of their… the sand and actually fixes it, because so far it’s like they don’t even see the problems that most of us have seen since release.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Firstly, we have no qualm or rivalry with Helseth.

That aside, I have some questions, and would like to address some other points made.

1. What exactly do you mean by allocating resources to eSports?
2. What exactly is your definition of fun? Fun is subjective, no?

While we definitely appreciate it when players are vocal and provide feedback, excessive hyperbole does not help us to understand the fundamental issue.

Some more points:
1. The current meta is not controlled by the PvP team. Yes, we monitor it closely as balance greatly affects PvP. However, no resources are being taken away from PvP development in order to do balance. So I’d like to just squash that misconception now.

2. Skill effect clutter – another thing not controlled by the PvP team. Another thing that we monitor and provide feedback to the teams that do control it.

3. Sending out in-game mail is not as easy as it sounds. Keep in mind that every message that is sent has to be edited and localized.

• This is, however, something we recognize as an area to be improved. We are investigating ways to provide in-game messaging for events.

4. Lastly, I want to thank you for promoting the guildwars2pvptv channel. I always see a few people on the team with the stream always going on their 2nd/3rd monitors. Once PAX has past, we’ll be looking to better promote streamers from all areas of the game. So keep it up!!

Well to put it simply, the game should be fun, varied and somewhat balanced first, and should be focused on getting a casual playerbase interested in it, then give the tools to allow players to be competitive (soloqueue, team matches/tourny queue, rating etc) and it will just… happen automatically.

The casual playerbase is the life and backbone of esports. Right now with such a high focus on forcing a (part of the) game with a small following into esports is like taking a crippled child and pushing them relentlessly into become the #1 Pianist in the world w/o feeding him or letting him sleep.

There is a lot of things wrong with the game and so it’s kind of pointless to just sit there and “armchair developer” it up anyway, but basically priorities should be on fixing what’s wrong with the game and just making it enjoyable for the majority first. And from what I’ve read even the top players aren’t enjoying it atm lol.

TBH I was surprised to see Anet even managed to get a payed tournament, kudos on that however you made that happen, I just don’t see it working out in the long run though. Really cool of you to jump in this thread and communicate with everyone (not sarcasm =p).

Rambodacious.7495:

snip

+1

Never touch those crappy things.

Was a terrible idea to balance the classes with such insane HP differences.

noobftw.9654:

Im start to get the feeling that the dev is giving up pvp altogether now. There is too many problems inherited from fundamentals of the game that are unfun and quite unfixable unless redo it from scratch. I don’t even want to mention the condition meta now, but when can we fix the AI overflow and poor targeting system on top of that?

It’s not hard to fix, just stop pushing the game into an esport and just focus 100% on making it fun.

The esports and competition comes naturally.

It’s like starving and depriving a child of sleep while forcing them to become the #1 anything in the world. It just doesn’t happen.

This needs to be seen more because he gets it.

Just playing and watching the rise of LoL since it’s release it’s easy to see how an esport game comes to fruition.

Erasculio.2914:

So, ArenaNet has told us that it appears players aren’t that interested in dynamic events, and ArenaNet has not been that interested in giving us events in the last updates either. What else do we know?

People used to farm the dynamic events in Orr a lot. ArenaNet has mentioned how a lot of people used to farm Fractals.The Southsun second update was basically a farming update, considering the huge Magic Find there, and there were a lot of people farming there. We know a lot of people used to farm CoF1. Now, the Crown Pavillion is pretty much the opposite of the open world – a closed space with static enemies that respawn quickly, with a few bosses here and there. Yet there are zergs farming there the entire day, powered by more Magic Find buffs.

That’s what we know.

Now, I’ll guess. I think ArenaNet has the numbers to realize that the great majority of players don’t care about fun or interesting Dynamic Events. I think ArenaNet has realized that the great majority of players wants to farm. And I think ArenaNet has realized that there is no point in all the work required for building interesting and fun Dynamic Events, when it’s much easier to just build more farming grounds, which are more popular than the events anyway.

In fact, I think this is one of the reason why ArenaNet has given up on expansions. People would expect that an expansion would bring us more areas like the ones we had at release – with Vistas, PoIs, and with lots and lots of events. But ArenaNet knows building those would basically a waste of time, so why bother with expansions?

I think ArenaNet’s main mistake was in making Guild Wars 2 a MMORPG. The players they got are MMORPG players – who want to farm, not to have fun. All that talk about having interesting and unique dynamic events that would change the world? ArenaNet has likely given up by now. That’s not what their players want, so why bother?

People DO care about interesting/fun events, thing is, THERE HARDLY IS ANY. And on top of that they aren’t that rewarding in comparison.

All the rewards come from mob drops.

You need one or the other, and ideally both, rewards and fun.

Anet has been doing great at supplying rewards for the most part, now they just need to make the unrewarding things rewarding and make events fun.

But seriously, move rewards away from mob drops and put them in event victory.

If 90% of the reward came from succeeding an event there would be way more teamwork and even supportive builds/players would be viable then instead of everyone in zerker gear spamming aoe’s struggling to get their loot in mindless zerg play.

Players not paying attention to them is Anet’s own kitten fault.

Events are recycled content, it’s literally the same exact thing every time and there is nothing interesting about playing it, as much as I’d want it to be.

It’s literally just, mob wave spawns, kill mob wave, repeat x5. Done. That’s 95% of the events in the entire game.

On top of that, it’s not even close to rewarding unless you’re doing lvl 80 stuff that spawns a ton of mobs and you’re with a zerg so you have tons of loot pinata’s to tag.

That was their biggest mistake, if something isn’t fun AND it’s not rewarding why would anyone ever touch it? You need ATLEAST one of those for something to work in a game.

They could’ve spruced up their events to make them more interesting, give them multiple objectives that with enough people even require teamwork, like Heart events basically have.

Take your bandit water poisoning event, instead of the occasional poisoner bandit walking up to poison a water supply, have those but make them take a long time to poison and also take a long time to be killed so it requires interupts and knockbacks to prolong him til he dies.

Then have the bandit camp below have bandits that are supplying the poison and you need some people to go there to stop them or you’ll be overrun with bandit poisoners. Then at 50% completion have a bandit boss spawn that people have to deal with while also dealing with the 2 other objectives.

Just an example, I also once posted an example of a dredge event that had support mobs, siege, bosses and regular groups of mobs assaulting a town that required the teamwork of a group of people to do along time ago before I quit the game.

And if that’s not going to happen your next bet would be to up the rewards so BEATING events are more rewarding. Ideally you’d want both though, for them to be fun/interesting AND rewarding. For events especially, the majority of rewards need to be tied to the victory, and not mob drops, IMO. It’s the other way around right now.

I can only imagine, having a group of level 80’s that feel like doing events in Queensdale for fun and being fairly well rewarded for it, and you don’t have to hardcore farm a zerg event in Orr or Living World events for money. Would be a nice.

Perfect example BTW, this Clockwork event, do you think it’s really that fun? Maybe the first 2 invasions you do, after that it’s just spamming aoe’s on mobs that spawn out of thin air and dropping OODLES of loot. The rewards make it satisfying despite the fact that it’s not that interesting or fun. If it wasn’t rewarding people wouldn’t do it at all after the first few times or after doing what they need for the kitten story unlocks.

Just kill it, unless they’re going signet and 10 inspiration for 70% phant HP they die super easily, especially if it’s a glass cannon mesmer.

If they’re using the hp Signet well then… stop complaining about Hotjoin lmao.

Well plant based women probably have more ladyfruit squirting crazy juice into their brains than your average human woman.

Makes sense when you think about it.

Their should be challenging stuff that is the most rewarding, there can still be easy casual farm that can be like 80% as good. But risk needs to be rewarded.

Boring stuff being rewarding is ok, because you’re being rewarded (which is satisfying), but now imagine if the game had really challenging and fun stuff that was also the most rewarding, it would be a godsend.

+1

This game desperately needs the class variety. It would be perfect too if they made it so we had to hunt for our new skills in the old zones.

I’ll take an unbalanced game with variety than a slightly less unbalanced game with barely any variety. =/

Each zone should be getting hit at the same time by these events IMO.

And each zone should have their difficulty based on the level of the zone and rewards increased based on that difficulty, then have achievements that require stuff to be done in each zone and make it so each time you do a living story update, EVERY zone has stuff to be done that can give a unique fluff item, whether it be a pet, an armor skin, a weapon skin, a toy or w/e.

And I would love it if old zones were like 90% as rewarding as lvl 80 zones.

Should also have atleast one champ in each mob group no matter the size so even smaller parties can get their share. It’s sooo much more profitable being in the zerg ATM.

T K.5173:

Not at all. There are so many fantastic memories from GW1 spanning all three campaigns. Story elements were dark, mysterious, and epic. Living world content is juvenile at best, obviously engineered for a younger audience or those who unconcerned about a deep fantasy narrative. Scarlet as a villain is one dimensional, like a character from Saturday morning cartoons. This is more about new areas to farm because item/material accumulation seems to be the only form of progression now.

It is almost like they have forgotten just how cool the original game lore was.

OMG THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING.

When I first saw her I was like…. is this a superhero game? I feel like I’m playing Champions Online lol.

This would introduce the need to protect objectives too which should really help split the zerg.

Especially if winning was where most of the rewards were instead of the mobs.

Bovinity.8610:

You do realize that it’s perfectly viable to zerg up to get a ton of champs AND complete the event? In fact it’s arguably more interesting that way, rather than sending small groups all over to wipe groups of mobs that don’t even scale up to veteran, then completing the event super-fast.

Not to mention that it’s really nothing like Embers, because failing the event doesn’t somehow get you more stuff. There’s a lot of incentive to actually finish it.

It should be more rewarding to split up and progress more though.

If every event in the future is just going to be zerg spamming 1 on loot pinatas the events are going to get stale very fast and kills any chance of having interesting events that take teamwork and strategy.

IMO each group of mobs should be guaranteed a champion so even small parties can get their share, and depending on their killing speed might even be able to keep up with zergs.

All the performance issues aside (although culling has helped my FPS get to a playable level) I’m just really tired and burnt out on being in events with 100 people spamming aoe’s on loot pinatas that spawn out of thin air.

No matter how well designed your events are, with a zerg of this size it will always deteriorate into 1 button (or 5) spam fests for loot with no thought or strategy. And this sort of kills any chance of having well designed events or fights that are actually interesting.

All I ask is you try to have future events split people up a bit more, some how, even if it’s having “instances” of whatever the event is have a smaller population cap. Or if you continue to have open world zones used for events attack multiple zones so people aren’t dog piling into the same exact zone.

I remember certain events being a lot more fun with a more moderately sized “zerg” of like 20 people taking on a tough boss, and while yes organized people in this event could split off from the zerg to take on events (if you can even get your friends/guildies in the same instance), they actually get less loot than zergs smashing their loot pinatas lol.

Take a page from Rift if you’re going to do these open world events and have multiple objectives that require people to defend that are made clear when they’re being attacked and will fail if they all fall. Also each event “mob group” should be guaranteed a champion so even small organized parties can get their share.

Imagine if they worked on fostering a casual pvp playerbase THEN slowly turned the game into an esports instead of the other way around.

A bit of a weird suggestion, but since smaller one-hand weapons tend to be too small to see, especially daggers, it’d be cool to have an optional way to enlarge them, would be especially nice so good skins don’t have to go to waste. I personally haven’t seen any dagger skins that really blew me away.

It’s not about needing incentive to explore a world you’ve already explored.

It’s about re using this massive awesome world so it’s not going to waste.

It’d be awesome to continually have other things to do in the old zones besides 100%’ing it and w/e little living story events.

Like fluff rewards, lots and lots of them.

Daecollo.9578:

Wolfheart.1938:

Balance changes right after a big tourney? Your expectations were pretty wrong.

2% > 98%

2%?

I’d actually be really surprised if it was as high as 2%.

I just want the risk/reward to be balanced. Make challenging stuff the most rewarding.

It’s a very empty and meaningless sort of teamwork, all it serves is make you want that actual teamplay.