Guild Wars 2

In GW1, it was where all things tied to Abaddon went, not necessarily the worse place. Even good people who – knowingly or not – were affected by Abaddon went there.

Soulstar.7812:

Belenwyn.8674:

As Colin mentioned the next big event is the launch in China. Season 2 of LW will start after this – maybe begin of June.

Exactly.

They haven’t even started working on content.
I keep saying this and no one believes me.

They are working for that China Communist Dollar…

They can care less for you…
you already gave them your money… they already got your dollar

Idiots are continuing to give them money for ugly helms…

It’s gonna be a long wait.

They’re not making any new content for China, so it’s unlikely that they’re going to be putting all resources into China to the point of not even having started Season 2 when they begin working on LW content 4 months before release. Which means that if they haven’t started working on it yet, we don’t get Season 2 until August.

Do you really think Anet is stupid enough to give no new content for half of a year when they’ve been pumping out content (mostly temporary at that) for 15 months flat?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

But… you have an account already. Are you asking us to convince you to buy more?

I was just about to say that…

To have an account on this forum, you must have an account for the game. Which means the OP already bought the game.

That, or stole someone’s account.

Are those actual undead, though? They do not count to the Sigil of Undead Slaying. And they come from the Mists, which is capable of creating creatures that look like beings turned inside out (GW1 demons).

Though as I mentioned before – aside from necromancer-made minions. And those may count as that (plus mummies, not zombies), if they are undead.

It’s the worst place we know of, but it’s not like all evil-doers go there. Chaos Plains within the Underworld is where some criminals are sent, for example. And there’s the un-described “realm of travail” that’s mentioned alongside the realm of torment in cursing someone by Cobiah Marriner.

My point remains that the closest place to an infernal afterlife is the Fissure of Woe. And it also stands to mention that demons are born in places other than the Realm of Torment – Spawning Pools in the Underworld is one such place (a birthplace of (some) dryders). Imps and Fleshreavers are said to come (at least partially) from the Underworld too.

A lot of the risen died before even knowing that Elder Dragons even existed, let alone Zhaitan’s name. Not just in SoS but in-game. All Orrian risen are such cases.

So it’s unlikely that the dragon minions are just going “this is what my enemy calls my master, so I’ll call him that too” (what if we start calling the dragons “Sir Poopyface”? will the minions go “All hail Sir Poopyface!” too? :P).

As to “people don’t generally name themselves” – that’s exactly what every sylvari does.

Whether the Elder Dragons named themselves though is fully unknown, just as their age is.

Wanderer.3248:

If you want to stretch the meaning of demon to anything supernatural, then anything supernatural is a demon. Ta-da!

(In the original Greek, the word Daimon, was any lesser spirit (less than a god).

I think it’s a lot less confusing if we stick to the regular English usage of demon to refer to a malign creature of infernal origin. Sylvari don’t count, since they’re not malign. And I doubt dragons are of infernal origin.

The issue is that there is no “infernal origin” – there is no hell in Tyria. Closest you get to your typical Fire and Brimstone (thus infernal) afterlife is the Fissure of Woe… which is a good place to go.

Demons come from the Mists in general, which can be anything in terms of landscape.

If the stated canon definition of demon is “born from the Mists” then that’s what a demon is, regardless of what Christianity or ancient Greece calls them.

I was more talking of the logic of it happening, rather than saying 1090 is GW1 lore.

Even 1080 would count as GW2 lore, honestly speaking, as Beyond was made to lead into GW2’s created-but-unreleased lore.

You’d have to go up to the BMP at the furthest in development.

Hard to say, but I find it hard to believe that Rata Sum’s ruins are mursaat made when confirmed asuran made structures that predate their founding of Rata Sum appear just like those “unknown” structures.

Wouldn’t be the only case of inconsistency in lore.

Linsey only says (with confirmation) that they were built by a magical civilization.

Asura have a magical civilization. So it’s not like Linsey says they cannot be asuran.

The anagram is likely just Anet putting a nod to the player’s love of mursaat – which I feel was mentioned once somewhere though I haven’t a clue where. Or it could be pure happenstance given that Rata Sum is latin for “I (have) verified/ratified.”

And Linsey suggesting Orrian, Seer, or mursaat honestly tells me “it’s not these three” – because why would she give it away? Anet loves teasing, and that line is certainly a teasing line.

Frosch.7809:

So much easier to turn the Charr into “good guys” by turning Adelbern into a madman, which he wasn’t during the quest The last day dawns: http://i61.tinypic.com/9r2lpi.jpg

Adelbern was mad even before that quest, however. Or at least, obviously meant to be.

From the Prophecies Manual: He’s older now, and though he’s a well-liked king, his insistence that the army can hold back the beasts from the north has started the people whispering to each other in the streets. Not everyone agrees with the king on this matter.

From a side-quest in Prophecies (first we see him in post-Searing):

King Adelbern: “Stand aside, Rurik.”
Prince Rurik: “Before you do this, Father, think about your motives.”
King Adelbern: “That Krytan is a cancer on the underbelly of Ascalon. I need no further motive than that to cut him away before he does more harm.”
Prince Rurik: “Ambassador Zain is here to offer us aid. He extends his hand in friendship.”
King Adelbern: “No Krytan will ever be a friend of Ascalon.”
Prince Rurik: “Do not be foolish, old man! If you have not noticed, Ascalon is in no position to turn away help, even from those who were once our enemies.”
King Adelbern: “I grow tired of this, Rurik. Step aside this instant! We are here to arrest Ambassador Zain and try him as a traitor of this nation.”
Prince Rurik: “I will not allow you to jeopardize the fate of Ascalon because of your petty jealousy! If you intend to arrest the ambassador, then you will first have to go through me.”
Prince Rurik: “Go home father. Let me deal with this.”
King Adelbern: “This is a mistake, Rurik. Mark my words. This Krytan will be the death of us all.”
King Adelbern: “Guards. With me.”

From the fourth Prophecies mission (second we see him in post-Searing):

Prince Rurik: “Trumpets! The king must be near. The fall of Rin will have darkened his heart. Hail King Adelbern!”
King Adelbern: “Rise, my son. you have done well. The discovery of Stormcaller is surely a sign of victory.”
Prince Rurik: “It is a powerful weapon, but I fear not powerful enough. The Charr have amassed an army of many thousands.”
King Adelbern: “You overestimate these beasts, Rurik. Do not be afraid.”
Prince Rurik: “I am not afraid, father. I have seen them in battle. Rin has been destroyed! It would be wise to escape while we can. We should make for Kryta and rebuild our strength. Not wait here for death.”
King Adelbern: “I will never allow Ascalons to live in the shadow of the Krytans! It is Rin that will be rebuilt. And you will learn your place.”
Prince Rurik: “You have grown proud, Adelbern of Ascalon…proud and foolish!”
King Adelbern: “You would dare call your king a fool? I will hear no more. I banish you from Ascalon! You are no longer my prince, and you are no longer my son!”
Prince Rurik: “People of Rin! Your king will lead you to death. If you wish to see better days, if you wish to live, then leave the beasts behind and follow me over the Shiverpeaks. We make for Kryta and a new life, free of the Charr.”

And I disagree that he seems perfectly sane in The Last Day Dawns:

“A long time have I fought for Ascalon. First as a soldier blessed by Balthazar, now as its king. Though I have survived one more battle, and I will see another day, it will not make me any more wise… only one day older. I have lost all that a man can lose. All that I have left is this antiquated set of armor and the remains of this tattered kingdom. I thank you for your help today. Rurik would have been very proud of all you have accomplished.”

These are the words of a tired old man who’s being pushed to his edge. He’s on the brink here, and I’ve seen it as such since I began playing in 2006.

Frosch.7809:

Still, there is a difference imo, between being mentally unstable and being insane. One could argue that it was a logical development, but it could as well have gone differently, but didn’t for the sake of GW2 lore.

18 years is more enough time to go from mentally unstable to being insane when your situation is turning worse and worse.

Shiren.9532:

Logan hasn’t changed at all and it’s a flaw in the writing imo.

The only character who never changes from beginning to end of what we see of them, is Scarlet Briar.

If you compare Logan at the beginning of Edge of Destiny, to the Logan at the end of the novel – they’re two completely different people. Logan at the beginning of the personal story and Logan at the defeat of Zhaitan – again, two different people. There is change and development. For all of Destiny’s Edge.

The issue is that to keep with “avoiding spoilers” ArenaNet backtracked on all of DE that we’ve seen (aka all but Zojja) to how they are at the beginning of the personal story. Which breaks the entire point of the dungeon story paths and lvl 1-30 personal story involvement with them.

So he does change. He just backpedaled thanks to the Living World (just another bad thing about it).

Jormag, Primordus, and Zhaitan’s names come from dwarven legends – and they’re called such by their minions (well, Jormag and Zhaitan are) so its likely that the dwarves got the names from minions going “FOR <Dragon’s name>!”. Kralkatorrik’s name comes from Glint. Mordremoth we only know from out of game stuff – no NPC has mentioned it.

lordkrall.7241:

There is a rather big difference between player knowledge and character knowledge.
Technically our characters doesn’t even know about DSD (it is implied that it exists in the game, but only very obscure and most likely not possible for in-universe characters to figure out it is an ED), but the players does.

The players do seem to know of the DSD. At the end of the personal story, in the My Story tab, it says there are four left.

Mordremoth was not awake at that time, so the PC most likely wouldn’t be referring to a creature with 0 influence beyond Inquest research.

Only the Priory and Inquest know of Mordremoth (Order of WHispers by extension of spies in the Priory), but they likely didn’t know its state of being. Well, Inquest might’ve.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Kalavier.1097:

I’d have to find the book, but I recall one mentioning a “rumored dragon” in the sea.

They might not know about ‘bubbles’ directly, but they know at least one more dragon is out there (post mordi waking up).

You’re probably remembering the Movement of the World- to the best of my knowledge, it’s the only source that mentions Bubbles. The problem is, while it was originally presented as an in-universe document, it was from early pre-release and several parts of it have changed. We now have to either accept that and see it as an out-of-universe, slightly unreliable guideline, or else say that the greatest historian of the Priory is confused on the sequence of world-shaking catastrophes that had profound implications for his order.

There’s some quaggans in Timberline Falls that mention fleeing an Elder Dragon, actually. The Movement isn’t the only source. Specifically, the skill point quaggan in Melaggan’s Grotto – sadly, she doesn’t mention it on re-talking.

_ It’s not a complicated story. Quaggans have lived peacefully beneath the waters for many generations. When the dragons spewed their filth across Tyria, the quaggans had to flee. _
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Villager_%28Mellagan%27s_Grotto%29

Horst Hortensie.5420:

There is a fine line between the risen. Those who lived in Orr before it sunk and those who were transformed afterwards. Those who lived in Orr are gardening or whatever they’ve done (as Orr sunk probably). They react if you come close. There are several NPC in Orr mentioning this behaviour. This is a behaviour similar to Ascalon and knowing that Khilbron sunk Orr with an equal powerful forbidden spell and a special weapon makes it possible that the population of Orr behaved the same even underwater (just undead instead of ghosts). Doing their duty until eternity. As Zhaitan rose Orr and changed all into risen he couldn’t overwrite this behaviour, even if they serve him now.

The issue is that we know that they weren’t farming and the like as the charr slaughtered their way through the entire peninsula. And we see Branded functioning in a similar method – we can see some branded ogres going around with their branded pets in Blazeridge Steppes.

So if there’s a similarity, it isn’t between Foefire and Cataclysm, but Foefire and dragon corruption. Which there is similarity, and it delves deeper.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Have no reliable traces found of Grenth and haven’t even searched for them, but the priestess says that Zhaitan ate all, while I’m just searching for more traces if he devoured (and took over) the magic of Lyssa. I think if something bad happened to Grenth it may be connected to eye of the north (which I haven’t played or searched for story, it’s again just some matching pattern that would cause me to search there for Grenth’s fate).

There was nothing in Eye of the North to hint to any of the gods having issues.

And again, don’t take a risen’s words for fact. If you do, then you have to believe he can corrupt sylvari.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Real world != game world —> ingame NPC cannot know what devs tell us in real world

But I take it from you. Primordus corrupts into lava and this NPC knows, while I’ve never really heard of it.

Right, it was a dev that told us that Primordus can, but that we haven’t seen him do such yet – despite the fact that in the skritt storyline, the mentor suspects the Destroyer Queen may be a corrupted living being (“or a new kind of minion”). Source

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Again. There are hostile NPCs listed as undead and not as risen in the personal story.

But they are risen. They are called risen, even if their names are not.

Risen are called undead.
Undead are called risen.

With the exception of mentions of Joko and any rare mention of GW1 events, the term “undead” in GW2 is used interchangably with the term “risen”.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Additional is there an event where you clean a risen chicken which stays undead after the cleaning.

The ritual only purifies the mind, it doesn’t affect the body’s corruption.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

The spy (of Zhaitan) in Maeva’s lab was also an undead spy and this one matches better to an undead orrian elder dragon than a risen.

It was a Risen Drake under the effects of Spectral Armor’s animations. It is the exact same in every way shape and form as the Risen Creature and Orrian Scout. They are the exact same thing.

Orrian = Undead = Risen

The terms are interchangeably used by the NPCs.

Annoying? Yes. Confusing? Apparently. Fact? Yes.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Do you have a better answer why they should be there instead of all are undead in a technical way. Zhaitan usually raises undead, but now he raises risen.

Risen are undead. Those undead are risen. There is no difference.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Then I should start to say it: There is a problem with the Pale Tree.

Then I should start to say it: Balthazar’s mother was Zhaitan.

You have no evidence of support, that’s what I meant by “nothing says” – you saying it doesn’t mean diddlysquat without proof. Else you’re just spouting nonsense like a conspiracy theorist who thinks that the CEO world is full of alien blood-drinking reptiles disguising themselves as humans (this is an actual conspiracy theoriest’s claims).

Horst Hortensie.5420:

The nightmare court wants to free the known Pale Tree from Ventari’s tablet, why should they intend to corrupt another one?

Well don’t take my word for it. Go and look up the story step dialogues!

Knight of Embers: Now I, too, understand.
Knight of Embers: When the grand duchess hears this, she will send the whole court after you, Harbinger!
Knight of Embers: She will never stop! Not even when the Grove itself is bathed in blood!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Different_Dream

Knight of Embers:I am the Knight of Embers. I was born dreaming of you, and it has been my life’s ambition to draw you into nightmare.
Malyck:Why? Why do you want me so badly that you would waste lives just to capture me?
Knight of Embers:Because you are the key to our freedom from Ventari’s false laws. Your coming marks the turn of the tide between Dream and nightmare.
Knight of Embers:With your appearance, the truth grows ever closer. Come, the grand duchess awaits in the Venlin Vale.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Source_of_the_Issue

What the Nightmare Court wants is to send all sylvari into Nightmare. They were formed with the intention of freeing the Pale Tree of the Ventari Tablet and becoming “true sylvari” but they’ve fallen from the path by falling into Nightmare.

It’s like when you get freedom fighters who start to sacrifice civilian lives just for the sake of ending the tyranical government.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Religion and other developments are results of try and error. The Sylvari don’t have a chance for this, because their way is determined. You should know that you can abuse people who want to help without further thoughts.

Their way isn’t “determined” any more than a child’s is by their teacher.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

I the future can change within a blink of an eye, what happens to all these long term wyld hunts? What if Orr would have been cleaned while Trahearne was studying, would his wyld hunt have been obsolete? 23 years of studying for … I got another task for you?

And we kill a dragon, which is against Ventari’s tenets.
IV. All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed.

The future changes based on individuals’ actions. If a Wyld Hunt is complete, it is complete – even if the sylvari wasn’t the one who completed it.

And it’s not against the tenet. The tenet isn’t “do not kill” it is “all things have a right to grow” – this doesn’t mean “never kill” but “give everything a chance.” Zhaitan had millenias of chances and destroyed countless cultures and civilizations, and would have done the same again moreover.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

We don’t even know what the eternal alchemy is (the Asura neither). Opening a massive amount of things that are not those that she saw or she thought she saw.

The Eternal Alchemy is how all things connect and function together. It’s a non-physical philosophy. It’s not unknown.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

There is control and where is control there is somebody taking the wheel and driving the sylvari into their wyld hunts, but as said there is a problem with the Pale Tree, not only with the dream.

A farmer controls his land. Does that mean he is behind it? No, he’s just a caretaker – which is what the Pale Tree calls herself.

And as said, you hold 0 proof for “there is a problem with the Pale Tree”. Or at least, you’ve not shown such proof.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

If you put life into a body which is not able to live, then you get a perverted abomination and that’s it what I think risen are. That they are decaying instantly if done to a living could have several reasons and is a speculation where I have no clear path (to many options).

Putting “life into a body” requires a soul. Not all risen have souls – only the more powerful/intelligent ones like the Keeper of Grenth’s Temple and King Reza do.

Besides, Zhaitan isn’t the only Elder Dragon capable of corrupting corpses. Jormag’s known to do it too – wouldn’t surprise me if Kralkatorrik and Primordus can and do too. Remember that what they corrupt is physical matter (and sometimes spiritual, as we see with Risen Wraiths). And corpses are still physical matter.

Not all risen have “life” in them. Few do, one can easily argue, if any.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Here lacks my english. Do you want to tell me that Southsun is stuck in time? Even in Orr, Scarlet planted her probes, showing that Orr is today like Lion’s Arch or Kessex.

Like I said, except when affected by the Living World updates – which may be as little as just probes being placed there – it appears to be stuck in time. Those probes didn’t exist during the PS’s time, but the fight in Orr isn’t as terrible as it was then either (or so we’re led to believe).

A single probe being added doesn’t suddenly make the entire zone up to date. I mean, there’s supposed to be a reduction of risen – yet we see them all over Caledon, in Kessex, and Gendarran still. And those zones have been affected. It’s only the affected parts, not the whole, that we know has progressed.

Otherwise we wouldn’t be killing Daithor time and time again, endlessly.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Now you’ve switched from the risen human champions to common population. The professions which most population risen have are a mix of a lot classes and cannot just tied to one profession. It’s more like they have their old professions (whatever they were).

I didn’t switch. I was talking in a whole from the get go.

Want to just talk about champions? The dragon champions – Tequatl, Blightghast, etc. never use anything mesmer like. And those are the strongest champions there are. Temple priests all use their own gods’ related profession/abilities. Mouth of Zhaitan doesn’t use mesmeric abilities but does use gusts of wind and fire.

Having their old professions is exactly what they ALL have! Only the Eye of Zhaitan and Mouth of Zhaitan are likely exempt, and that’s just two types of creature! Far from all or most.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

It was a human champion and no artifact in the whole story except the initial task. It’s an assassination and therefore he cannot just be a raiding risen. Whoever Alzuldin was, he was the target of our mission.

They stole the artifact as you got there. It’s stated so in the dialogue. The mission was to recover the artifact, and we realize the risen got there shortly before we did. Alzuldin was left behind to kill us after the Mouth consumed whatever the artifact was and it and the Eye left.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

They mix their own poisonous potions. In one personal story we hunt them, because they stole a potent poison to worship the Eye of the Sun and get into a rage form after completing the formula (not godly, but more power than common Hylek). If you fight the Hylek then you’ll notice poisonous tongue, poisonous blowpipe and they drink something before they spit poison (in some cases they spit fire afterwards). Not magic?

Yes, they mix their potions. But this is unrelated to their resistences or production of natural poisons. Give this a read before you continue, please – in fact, I’ll highlight the main part:

All hylek have a set of poison glands that produce a deadly toxin. Hylek are naturally immune to their own secretions, as well as a wide variety of other natural poisons. Because of this, the hylek do a great deal of experimentation with poisons, antidotes, and a wide variety of compounds.

It isn’t magic. It’s natural production utilizing various plants. It’s no different than producing drugs for us – at least how it was in the past before we had manufacturing companies and scientifically created ingredients. The Eye of the Sun thing had magic involved, MAYBE, but it wasn’t some self-tormenting magic and is a unique scenario.

Frosch.7809:

ReSpect.7125:

Since they disapeared almost at the same time the asura started to leave the depths, it can be the mursaat that builded the city which ruins they built Rata sum on?

The name Rata Sum itself is an anagram of “Mursaat”, so it is a possibility that the ruins were Mursaat in origin, but there is no proof for that.

There is a quest called “O Brave New World” in Vlox’s Falls where you accompany Asura researchers into Arbor Bay in search for a place for a new settlement, there you can see the style of ruins most likely similar to those Rata Sum was build upon.

The name Rata Sum is asuran made.

But it’s unlikely that those ruins were mursaat made. Firstly, the ruins match ruins used in the Depths – including the Central Transfer Chamber. The ruins in the quest O Brave New World are in fact the exact same models as seen in the Central Transfer Chamber.

Secondly, the mursaat are only “recently returned” as the Unseen Ones in the world – the ruins are not young enough to have been built and abandoned only recently, but they’re too old to be from 10,000 or even 2,000 years ago (Seiran makes a comment about dwarven civilization being “older than 2,000 years” which would seem weird if they’re over 10,000 years old as implied by the Priory’s proclaimed previous rise of the ED given that the dwarves were present – whichever is when the last ED rise was, is when mursaat left the world – and they only returned a few years before Prophecies).

Thirdly, mixing with the first point, we have Rata Pten – a surface asuran outpost from before the Cataclysm. This shows that the asura had some structures on the surface from the past, forgotten to their own people (which is not uncommon given how paranoid they are – a lot of personal information is lost when an individual dies because they don’t want others using their inventions and the like, a habit that’s been dying off in the past 250 years and one of the original reasons for the Inquest’s creation in fact).

Fourthly, Rata Sum does not match in any way, shape, or form the mursaat structures seen on the Ring of Fire Islands.

LumAnth.5124:

I seem to remember a bit of lore saying they have a city in the skies above a river (Riverside Providence?)

It could be possible that the Mursaat we faced were just soldiers, and the “civilians” are safe up high in their city.

I don’t know, I’m just a big Mursaat fan and become more optimistic when it comes to them.

You’re mixing two different things.

In whichever forest (there’s two near Kryta) that Saul was exiled into, he stumbled upon a mursaat city of towers reaching to the sky.

The bit about a river comes from Old Joness who mentions an oddness about the Ullen River. Players took this to mean there’s a mursaat town in that unexplored place between Tangle Root and Riverside Provence – fun fact: that’s south-central Brisban now.

It’s the latter, sadly. The personal story presently uses the live model of the maps. So even those in Kessex were affected by the Tower of Nightmare map changes. LA PS steps were also affected by the holidays and the new karka signs being put up.

I do recall Bobby Stein saying a long time ago that they intend to improve this by having the PS using set-in-time maps – this may not have been possible due to sheer size of the different maps and all servers getting their own, but with the megaserver it might be more feasible. If it is feasible at all – given that it hasn’t happened yet may mean it isn’t.

“hatched” or “transformed” though. We see Branded Crystals spawning Branded but they weren’t eggs laid by a branded minion (given that branded humans come out and all that).

“The Shatterer” is the lieutenant that guards the Dragonbrand. There’s only one Shatterer at a time, but not necessarily only one dragon lieutenant of Kralkatorrik’s at a time. This is a situation unique to the Shatterer and the Shatterer alone (as far as we know). Each of Zhaitan’s lieutenants got different names/titles, and as mentioned there’s multiple Claws of Jormag which implies shared titles amongst many at a single time.

@Mickey: Given Warden Ilyra’s line about Glint regaining free will, it seems highly likely she was some sort of sapient being before being corrupted.

Chaos Crystal Caverns seems unrelated to Kralkatorrik and the Dragonbrand – the kind of crystals in there are completely different than branded crystals. Though incidentally enough, the branded crystals do have a shared model object in the northwestern skritt caves of Dredgehaunt Cliffs.

@Kalavier: Considering those “eggs” were completely transparent, I wouldn’t go so fast to call them proper eggs. Because, you know, they were transparent – and we saw nothing inside…

@Mickey2: If she was a branded drake, I’d go Sand Drake – seems closer, lacking wings and all, and is closer to Glint’s overall known locations (Orr and Crystal Desert). Or an extinct species altogether – like dragons. ;P

Ghosts of Ascalon, page 282, when Ember tells of the charr’s side of the events on the day of the Foefire.

" ‘The king said, “I have long known that Magdaer had other powers-remnants of the gods themselves. We Ascalonians may be doomed, but Ascalon will live on forever!”’"

It may be that he sent them south to protect them from the Foefire, should it come to that?

Just another possibility. Most likely his madness.

I wish ArenaNet would recontinue the Beyond story stuff. They’d be worth going back to GW1 for. I only don’t play GW1 because I did just about everything there. :/

Frosch.7809:

Not something the Adelbern of the original GW would have done, but not unlikely for the person Adelbern was turned into in preparation for GW2. It allowed something of human Ascalon to survive, ironically.

The “Adelbern of the original GW” is a lot more similar to the “person Adelbern was turned into in preparation for GW2” – there’s very little difference, really. Just a further fall into madness over his lost son.

Adelbern being racist against Krytans and his overly deterministic nature was there since Prophecies.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

The only Undead I’ve seen in GW1 are Decayed, Skeletal, Minions and Mummified AKA Awakened.

The Undead in GW Prophecies are decayed just like the Undead of GW2 so claiming Zhaitan favors Decay over Undeath doesn’t match what we know of straight up Undeath. Most straight up Undeath are decayed and rotting.

I have no idea how Palawa Joko created his Awakened unfortunatly. They seem unique to Elona currently.

The difference is this:

All undead in GW1 are either at least nearly a decade old (if not centuries old), or were in the Cataclysm (making them very skeletal). They’ve all had time to decay before becoming undead.

But in GW2, you have cases where risen are made from fresh, unrotten bodies and their skin instantly turn gray and their muscles rot. In the novels Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows, there’s explicit mention of the bodies of the slain becoming rotten and decayed as they’re corrupted before they even hit the ground. That isn’t natural rot and decay, unlike the GW1 undead.

A necromancer, as seen in Ghosts of Ascalon with Killeen, can use a fresh, unrotten corpse to make an undead puppet – and the puppet will not rot.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

So the word Undeath by your definition means reanimated?

So liches who never died aren’t undead?

There’s no known lich who didn’t die. In fact, in standard fantasy, a lich by definition is undead who’s soul is tied to an object rather than having a soul tied to their body or lacking a soul entirely. In GW2, the phalantry escapes lore (single Ascended item never used in killing Khilbron aside), and all three mentioned liches are rotten (Risen Liches are, except for Mazdak, ghostly which is interesting to note).

supposed leader. Optimus Caliph is only the supposed leader, though most likely given his fixed location when all other mursaat bosses move about, and his appearance before Saul in the BMP.

Why would the wall be shattered? The thing ends before Garrenhoff. The Shuttered Gate is a standalone gate that the tengu built recently and won’t let people through because… no reason given other than “on the other side is the Dominion of Winds” they said – what they didn’t say was that there’s an entire strait, the Wizard’s Tower, and Garrenhoff (if not more) between the gate and the Dominion of Winds.

Yup, the Maguuma Jungle’s on the other side of that Shuttered Gate too!

Keyce.8137:

I’m assuming that the Breachmaker had (or would have, had it lived) sent a large amount of magical energy directly to one or more Elder Dragons. You’re absolutely right that they wouldn’t go to sleep to just a good meal, but what if Scarlet’s intent hadn’t been to awaken an Elder Dragon, but to force-feed them until they had no food left to eat?

As said, they eat magic. Magic exists even in every living being. So that would be impossible without either hiding or killing all life.

Pecto.8914:

In the cinematic, after Scarlet’s death, you see the path of the leyline she hit with the drill. Following that leyline, we reach the dragon underground and see him awaken. I noticed that the map showing the various probes in Tyria after you killed her seems to follow the path shown in the video. It goes from Lion’s Arch through the gendarran fields, then there is a series of dot (probes) going south through the metrica province (possibly near the Thermanauvo reactor which we see in the cinematic) and the last dot/probe you could see following that “path” of probes was directly on the grove. Just saying. I’ve always said that the Pale Tree and Mordremoth are link and he could still be sleeping underneath it. Of course, he didnt rise from the ground yet, but it could still take some time before he can.

The leg line goes far beyond the Pale Tree. We see it passing through the Thaumanova Reactor and through an arid land then again into vegetated lands. It doesn’t even come close to the Grove – not by a long shot. And it doesn’t shoot backwards after going past Thaumanova – which would be required for it to end at the Grove.

Also, the probes on the maps are all over the place and going into the Far Shiverpeaks even.

By the cinematic, Mordremith us either in the Magus Falls or (less likely, IMO), off of the map to the west.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

What to believe and what not is hard to say, but the picture from Scarlet, the thorns around the Pale Tree is maybe the problem of it that we don’t see. The Pale Tree doesn’t do what it wants to do. It cowers before something else, playing along, sending us to kill an elder dragon.

You have no real evidence of that, seeing how the thorns ended up being Scarlet Briar herself. Remember, the developers had said that Scarlet “did not see what she thought she saw.”

Horst Hortensie.5420:

I don’t know if the Pale Tree knows about the artesian waters, but the entity behind the dream should know pretty well about it or searched for exact this spot. Orr has a double corruption, because the risen orrians behave like the ghosts of ascalon, leading me to the conclusion that Khilbrons corruption is still active and mixed up with the risen corruption.

What if there is no entity behind the Dream? Ever consider that? Because all indications that’s the case, honestly speaking.

Khilbron had no corruptive influence. He sunk the land, and raised the army as undead. This is not corruption in any way shape or form. There is no double corruption of the land – just Zhaitan’s. The risen do not behave like the ghosts of Ascalon anymore than they behave like any other dragon minion (one should say it is the Foefire ghosts that act like dragon minions, rather than the other way around).

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Jonez puts a seal down, which is usually known for sealing magic into something.

The information about the bad situation was around or more than a year ago in one of the chats between Anet and the public (I didn’t care about gods at this time). I stumbled across it, because somebody posted it in another portal. I didn’t find it at the moment, so I drop this statement, but the unclear situation of underworld and the portals to underworld with Aatxe coming out is just another matching picture that there is something very wrong with his home. I try to find more about his actual situation, but at the moment I care more for Lyssa.

Jonez’s seal is to prevent corrupted magic from the temple going to the other smaller statues. This is an event that happens at every single temple. Jonez is not unique at all. The entire contested temple/statue mechanic is this single set up.

And just because there’s something wrong with the Underworld, doesn’t mean there’s something wrong for Grenth (see GW1).

Horst Hortensie.5420:

I stay at my point that it is a certain form of life. Resurrection/revive might be the wrong words here, but they are still different from common undead.

It really isn’t life, given that all dragon minions become the element of their dragon’s attunement. Icebrood’s blood and skin slowly turn to ice. Branded’s insides turn to crystals. Destroyers’ (when corrupted living beings) are melted into molten fire (aka lava). Risen are instantly decayed. A decayed body cannot be alive. Ergo, it is not a “form of life.”

Resurrection is by far the wrong words, as it is entirely different from risen which are more akin to undeath than resurrection.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

We get told he can, but he doesn’t. At this point I have to line out that it’s not an ingame information, proving the ingame NPC wrong or not comprehensible, even if outside of the game the information is different.

Er… what?

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Go into the personal story and check for yourself, please. Trahearne calls them very often orrians which is also true, but not for all risen. In our real world most people don’t know that a banana is technically a berry, so I don’t have a problem with omitting common mistakes. They see rotten corpses moving. What would you call them without digging deeper?

They’re risen. Risen look like undead. Thus they’re called undead. But other than the necromancer minion skills, there is not a single undead seen in the game. Those in the personal story, and any outside, are risen. Same model, count towards Zhaitan’s Bane slayer achievement, called Orrians or risen by NPCs, act with risen when all dragon minions attack anything not corrupted by their dragon (exception, some icebrood with Sons of Svanir). There is no “undead mixed with risen” – aside from Kellach and possibly Necromancer Rissa, whom are still corrupted though so even they aren’t really an exception, there are no non-risen mixed with risen. Ever.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Well, it didn’t clean Orr at all or is there any indication for it?

It’s stated it would take time to cleanse the whole peninsula. Also, keep in mind that except where the Living World affects, all maps are stuck in time, and sans Southsun Cove, pre-Zhaitan.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Zhaitan has human champions which are mostly the old population of Orr and these are mostly mesmer. We send a ranger, a warrior and stuff to his army and they come back corrupted. Small difference.

Go to Orr. There are a lot of Orrian necromancers, guardian-like casters, etc. They are the risen with coral all over them – Putrifiers, Corruptors, etc.. The Risen Knights are also Orrian, and are elementalists.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

There is more related to Lyssa than any other god in the story.

That’s like saying that because Mazdak was a prince of Orr, that the lvl 20-30 sylvari storyline relates to Dwayna.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

He is not happy about the kill of probably one of the last servants of Abaddon.

The risen we kill was not (necessarily) a servant of Abaddon. It was a raiding risen.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Wow, okay where do I get this information about the silence? Is there additional the information when the gods decided not to interfere? What if I found an interaction which was probably advise from a god short before or around 1075 AE (have to check exact date) and affects the world of today? How is this not interfering?

Erm… what?

Basic of the situation is that after Kormir replaced Abaddon, the Six Gods’ last duty to the world of Tyria (Abaddon’s imprisonment and related effects) was gone, so they stopped contact shortly after – over time, even the avatars stopped showing (we have a case in 1078 and 1079 AE with the avatars of Dwayna and Grenth specifically so they didn’t quiet up immediately). The gods stilled talked prior to and up to 1075 AE, but they were not physically on the world (except for rare cases, if stories about Dwayna and Lyssa are to be believed).

Horst Hortensie.5420:

They torment themselfes with poison and get power for it. What is the source of that magic? Why is this unreal god referred like real ones (with cultural differences)?

The hylek do not torment themselves with poison. They’re naturally poisonous – like tropical frogs which have poisonous secretions. They don’t get “power for it” beyond a natural immunity because their body naturally (read: non-magical, non-inflicted) produces the poisons.

Zintl is acted like an actual god because it’s their belief – like how Romans believed in Mars and Jupiter, Greeks in Zues and Posiedon, Egyptians in Ra and Anubis, etc. etc. etc. Why wouldn’t the hylek refer to their god as real? Grawl do it too. If they accepted their god was false… why bother revering it?

Horst Hortensie.5420:

If there is a problem with the Pale Tree (and Scarlet had one), then it also affects the result and ongoing of the personal story.

Nothing says there’s a problem with the Pale Tree…

Horst Hortensie.5420:

The Pale Tree is unatural, because the Sylvari have sprouted around 25 years before Malyck showed up.

That doesn’t make them unnatural. Evolution can occur in leaps and bounds – and it isn’t like there weren’t human-like plants before the sylvari.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

He is referenced as harbinger from the nightmare court and Ronan saw a lot seeds (number unknow, but more than two it seems).

Ronan seeing a lot of seeds actually hints that they’re natural. Malyk was called the harbinger simply due to philosophical views – his existence proves that the Pale Tree is not alone, and the Court can ignore corrupting the Pale Tree in favor of corrupting the other(s).

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Leading me to the conclusion that the whole growing of the Pale Tree was speeded up.

Or it was planted before the others. But fast growth != unnatural. Otherwise, a lot of normal human beings would be considered unnatural by your definition here, because they mature/grow faster than others their age.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Even more helds Ventari’s tablet the Sylvari away from their true nature and free decisions. It’s a cult around Ventari and there is more that I won’t list at the moment.

That doesn’t affect the natural-ness of the sylvari, just the belief and philosophy. It would be like humans are unnatural because they believe in Christianity rather than the original polytheism.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Furthermore talks the Pale Tree on one side very certain (especially about wyld hunts) and suddenly it changes it’s mind and then tells that it may change.

This sentence makes no sense to me.

Frosch.7809:

I see no reason to assume that Undead Rurik wasn’t wielding Sohothin during the final mission of Prophecies. Its last known location was therefore most likely the Ring of Fire islands, and it must have been taken away from there.

Logan saying that the sword was plundered from Ascalon is reason enough to me. Fullproof? No. But support for the possibility.

Frosch.7809:

There are two possibilities for this, one of the heroes of Tyria took it or it was “teleported” away like the Scepter of Orr. My characters who played through Prophecies wouldn’t have left it there, but technically only the heroes of Tyria, Mhenlo and his friends had the opportunity to do so, since the player characters from GW1 are not recognized to have existed in GW2 lore (except in the HoM, but that is a different story). I wouldn’t have left the corpse of Rurik there either, but there was a Lich to kill and afterwards one had to run for one’s life, with the volcano erupting.

The volcano erupting may have been enough to prevent someone from thinking “oh, I should pick up the sword!”

Frosch.7809:

I do not assume that it was Rytlock in person who plundered it, but that he took it from another Charr who fell in combat, and Rytlock claimed the sword. I can’t imagine Rytlock plundering a human grave, no matter what i think about him otherwise.

He plunders human ruins with the PC if you’re a charr with a loyal legionnaire sire.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/In_the_Ruins

Doug Whisper.2465:

An interesting thread. I haven’t read through all the post, however, it seems to me that no one talk about point on the similarity between Steam Creatures and Clockwork Knights. Furthermore, the visual effect of teleporation used by Scarlet to transport her allies seems to be very similar to the spawn and disappear animation of Steam Creatures and their portals. If my memory is correct Steam Creatures are something back from the future. Could the entity who influence Scarlet is someone back from the future too? That could explain how Scarlet get the knowledge to create Clockwork Knights. What if the entity hate the outcomes on who defeats all elder dragons and would like to change the history to his favor?

It’s said by Priory memebers near the ‘corpse’ of the Marionette that Scarlet most likely just captured some Steam creatures and reverse engineered them. It’s also said during Edge of the Mist instance that the Watchknights were built from designs based off of the Steam creatures – and her previous work with Steam creatures (the reverse engineering) is how she was able to take over the Watchknights so easily.

Scarlet isn’t tied to the origins of the Steam creatures.

Keyce.8137:

Just a thought, but if she intended to charge the Elder Dragons with redirected leyline energy, would it not be possible that she intended to simply stuff them full of food (magic) so that they sleep again?

Or, perhaps she intended to lure multiple Elder Dragons to the Breachmaker, and then try to destroy them or let them destroy one another?

They go to sleep when they run out of food, not when they’ve gotten a good meal.

The Breachmaker held no magic, no means of holding magic. So why would they go to the Breachmaker when it’s sending them what they want (magic)?

Fuzion.4193:

I haven’t spotted the owner of the Lion’s Shadow Inn yet, but I did notice the bar counter was missing. R.I.P. bar counter.

She’s been in Lornar’s Pass’s refugee camp the whole time. Says she just came from Rata Sum with new supplies, then Scarlet.

Moshari.8570:

DorDor.8617:

Berelious.3290:

Doc Halvern is gone… along with his Krait Oil… too bad

Krait Oil-Guy is dead!? This is a tragedy!

Although I do kinda hope that he got killed by the Toxic Alliance, just for a little bit of poetic irony.

+1 to this! Although he was over in the Aetherblade area…so there’s that….

On occasion, he walked over to one of the inner docks, which was Toxic Krait territory during the attack.

They’re all distant threat for 4 of 5 major races, if not all five. Then Zhaitan attacks the Orders who’ve been the main ones trying to counter them, and as a member of one Order, you unite the three to fight Zhaitan.

Jormag is not a distant threat to norn. Zhaitan is not a distant threat to sylvari (though he is a recent threat to them), and Kralkatorrik is not a distant threat to charr. But they are to everyone else. And even then, charr have bigger closer issues (Flame Legion, peace treaty talks, and Foefire ghosts). And norn also deal with dredge. And sylvari have Nightmare Court. The others also have more immediate threats, especially humans, so it would be like someone from Japan caring about the wars in the Middle East, if a charr cared about Primordus etc.

I never said they’re not doing anything. I said that only Jormag and Zhaitan are an active threat to the major races. Kralkatorrik could be considered such but his threat only lies inthe Dragonbrand, not in any active action unlike Zhaitan’s invasions on Port Stalwart, Port Noble, and Lion’s Arch or Jormag’s continuous push south.

Beyond their awakening, Pirmordus and Kralkatorrik held no effect on the major races, Mordremoth wasn’t awake for the personal story, which is set in 1325 AE (be awoke in 1327), and the DSD holds no noticeable (direct) effects on continental Tyria.

This is what I said, in far fewer words.

For strength, don’t forget that Logan was able to lift a big charr in heavy metal armor with one hand.

Only Zhaitan woke up 100 years prior to GW2. Primordus woke 200 years prior, and Jormag 150 years prior, with the deep sea dragon waking 50 years prior, Kralkatorrik being awake for 5 years – Mordremoth hasn’t even awakened by the time of the personal story but a year later. And even then, each Dragon has only affected a single major race at most, and only when waking except Jormag and Zhaitan, which is why they get the most story focus.

I really suggest talking to all the NPCs throughtout each story step, and before completing each heart, rather than waiting to get to lvl 80 before focusing on lore. Most of the game’s backstory is told in the personal story or pre-completion heart and scout NPCs, which are one-time only viewability. And when I last saw, those were least documented on GW2W. If you don’t talk to them and pay attention, you may miss more than half of the game’s presented lore in first-hand reading, and half of that half completely from it not being on the wiki.

Zhaitan’s corruption did, indeed, corrupt the priests/priestesses. It corrupted the land itself as well. Corruption would be purified – as we do in both The Source of Orr and Arah forgotten path.

Holding the temples only cuts off the connection between the temples and the smaller statues of the gods. It holds no influence on the corruption of the land.

No, he was a mercenary (though he called himself a scout) who happened to have been hired by Ebonhawke to guard some caravans and this included ambushing charr. As one of Logan’s unit says: “We’ve never faced charr. We’re not Vanguard or Seraph.” (page 23)

As discussed rather heavily in this thread Kralkatorrik had left the area of Glint’s Lair after Snaff was killed, and had not been seen since. It was months after that, that the Zephyrites recovered the body.

In other words, we don’t know where Kralkatorrik is except “not at the southern end of the Dragonbrand.” Unless, of course, he returned after the Zephyrites visited.

Edit: Sorry, slight mispeaking. According to Decimus of the Durmand Priory, Kralkatorrik is still in the northern Crystal Desert; the Movement of the World talks about “the desert dragon’s presence in the northern desert” when referring to the Order of Whispers being able to maintain communications with Elona despite Joko’s influence and the prior quote.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Interesting source, because we generally know nothing about the DSD and I can’t remember primordus corrupted creatures. This slavery thing is told everywhere, but if you spent attention to the risen dialogue it could also be another form of worshipping (there are enough reason expectable).

Minions themselves are turned into fanatical creatures upon corruption – regardless of the dragon. This is what’s meant by enslaving, and it is shown clearly in Edge of Destiny (with Branded) and Sea of Sorrows (with Risen). We have not seen Primordus corrupt living beings, but we’re told such is possible in an interview.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Wrong. We may not see some in the open world, but there are some in the personal story. The most lovely is Zhaitan’s spy, which is clearly referenced as undead. Or here and here is one listed among the risen. Or here. There are some creatures clearly references as undead —> undead != risen. Furthermore it is pointless to put up the same models like the risen and then reference them as undead, while we see no undead around.

Again, you’re mistaking names and Tyrian namecalling for actuality. Tyrians all call the risen undead – the game is slewthed with such. To the average, and even some of the more learned Tyrians, “risen = undead” – because Zhaitan so rarely corrupts living beings, so all risen would be corpses risen from the grave (metaphorically speaking, and hence the name “risen”). But Risen, while fundamentally undead, are made differently than your standard undead (ala Palawa Joko). Again, we do not see an actual “standard undead” (such as those seen throughout GW1) in GW2 – yet. They are all risen.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Tried to open the first door alone? After the third wave immediately spawning elite, I gave up, don’t know if there is an end.

That’s not at a Zhaitan fight. :P There is an end, if you step on the pressure plates (need two folks) for the appropriate amount of time.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

The Pale Tree (the one we know) is another unatural creation and was generally the leader of our trail towards Zhaitan, represented through Trahearne. I have the opinion that it knows what the artesian waters are, but showed us purposely a wrong place (or it wanted another corruption cleaned like Khilbrons). It knows way more than we expect.
Pale Tree to Scarlet (I call her Scarlet at all, because it’s a name choosen from her): Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.
All upon the impression that Zhaitan ate Lyssa and the hostility of her child.

Nothing says the Pale Tree is unnatural, actually. Nothing aside from unfounded player speculations, that is.

There’s really no indication that the Pale Tree knew of the Artesian Waters. As she says in A Light in the Darkness: “But be warned—the future can change in the blink of an eye. " Furthermore, when she brings us to the royal tomb, she never once states or hints that it is the source of corruption. In fact, the vision more or less tells us it isn’t! Trahearne deducted that it could be because: “My research suggests that the Royal Tombs were deeply sacred. They may still hold the connection I need to restore the land with Orr‘s fading life-force. " In other words, he basically goes “this place was sacred, it should do” without any real evidence that it would do.

The Pale Tree held no hand in Trahearne trying the ritual there.

Still not seeing the relation with Scarlet.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Wasn’t there a mission in GW1 were he lost his reapers? Do we really know that the 7th reaper serves Grenth actually?
_ Can you tell which one we’re dealing with here?_
“I’m not sure, but if I had to guess, I’d say he’s likely the Reaper of the Ice Wastes, Grenth’s most faithful Reaper. He’d never give up on the Cathedral—no matter what.”
Sound like his prior mission is to keep the cathedral.

In GW1, the Reapers were imprisoned. He didn’t “lose” them and there is no indication to believe they don’t still serve him.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

His temple is the Cathedral of Silence. After cleaning Jonez says something like: finally it’s silenced again. ANet hinted somewhere about the bad situation of Grenth. Maybe he is not himself.

Jonez is talking about the magic being sent to the statues of the gods. The temple’s name is likely a pun off of phrases like “dead men tell no tales” – the temple itself is basically a huge crypt, after all. And I don’t recall any hint that Grenth is in a bad situation, so I’ll have to ask for a source on that. I do know that players have speculated such due to the GW1 Dhuum-related Halloween quests, and the Shadow Behemoth/Aatxes coming in large numbers from the Underworld. But nothing beyond player theories really hint at Grenth being in a “bad situation”.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

He creates risen (at least we think so) which are more or less revived dead/undead. That he corrupts living might be more our problem, but that is going a little bit to far here. Let’s say it this way: I found a corruptor which affects all playable races and even more, causing me to wonder if all is real that we see, but on the other hand there are very much subtle designs, telling me everything I see is right.

We have no indication to reason that he doesn’t create risen, especially since they’re outright called his minions by Anet. Creating undead is very much different from resurrection and reviving. Resurrection/reviving results in LIVING beings. Not dead. Not undead. This is all very much apparent in GW1.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

The resurrection is more referenced as bringing life into a hull that can contain it, we also see risen ghosts in Orr.

In the context of GW, resurrection is akin to Jesus – going from dead to living. This is more than “bringing life to a hull” because such a phrase can be used to refer to either resurrected (living beings that had died) or undead (mobile, sentient corpses).

The difference, one can argue, is whether the heart beats or not.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

On the one hand people are arguing that the “cleaning of Orr” stole a lot of his power and on the other hand he should have embodied that power. At all he is not that powerful as he should be.

Cleansing Orr did little to Zhaitan himself, actually. It was killing the Eyes (both the one in the personal story, and the 3 in the open world), the Mouth of Zhaitan, destroying his influx of corpses, etc. that weakened him. Cleansing Orr just weakened his hold on the land itself, limiting his ability to corrupt more.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Several are lying not only enemies, but some lines simply don’t make sense. The difference I want to point out is that most classes we send into the fight are corrupted, but we never send a mesmer and at some point we find out who is behind and that’s a mesmer like Syska . Or the (human) champions are mostly mesmer.

I’m sorry, I don’t get your point here.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

You have no choice for Abaddon and you kill a champion there that makes the dragon cry (plus some other features applying there I call it an assassination). Kitah Manse is a place also related to Lyssa and one mouth of Zhaitan has his home there. Another place is the cave directly below the temple of Lyssa.

Kitah Manse isn’t related to Lyssa at all. It was the home of a powerful Orrian mesmer, but is not related to Lyssa. The “cave directly below the temple of Lyssa” only holds relation to Lyssa by location, the story holds no tie to Lyssa in that. It was just a hidden place for the Pact to set up a camp – like the mid-way camp in the caves in central Straits of Devastation.

By choice, I meant what I said “depending on your choices, you can end up going to all of these temples.” Of course, depending on your choices, you may end up only going to one: Abaddon’s. I did not mean that going to each temple is determined by a choice and you can avoid all of them. I was meaning that Lyssa’s temple doesn’t get special treatment.

Also, roar, not cry.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Merging this with the prior one it is pretty interesting that we call the ossuary the prior source for Zhaitans risen and that we are going through the funeral rite to locate it.

It is a primary source because that’s where they take the corpses carried to Orr by the ships – I would argue it is not due to ties to Lyssa, but rather because that also happens to be where Dhuum was defeated by Grenth and some magic of such lingers. Death begets death.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Similarities between Dhuum, Abaddon and Lyssa, but that’s another story/theory to put up.

The ponderous tome doesn’t talk about similarities between the three, but talks about the curious natures of the three.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Visited Cuttler long time ago and perceived him as Balthazar priest. I was wrong, but how the muting of the gods is presented gives me the impression that it couldn’t be long time ago.

Exactly the Hylek. They complain that the sun doesn’t feel warm anymore. The eye of the sun. Abaddon was giant eye as he was fought and Kormir is a sunspear, whilst they have a lot secret knowledge and are water creatures. What if Zintl was once Abaddon and is now Kormir?

The silence of the gods happened in 1075 AE, though they left the world physically in Year 0, and Zhaitan rose in 1219 AE.

The hylek’s god is not real, however. They worship the sun itself, revering it as if it were a god. Abaddon was not a giant eye – he was a head and two hands.

Tim.6450:

- nobility marrying nobility , aren’t there problems with inbreeding? So it isn’t logical to assume that they have to introduce new genes at regular to reduce the risks?

The nobility would be quite large, so I doubt there’s really an issue with inbreeding even if folks end up being second cousins thrice removed – that’s far enough away genetically to bring such issues to being a risk. Though “nobility marrying nobility” is just the accepted common practice – it was said recently in an interview (I think a livestream?) that while it does happen, it’s typically looked down for nobility to marry a commoner.

Tim.6450:

- How much is actualy known of Logan’s heritage? And how much is true?

That he’s the descendant of Gwen Thackeray is all that’s presented, incidentally enough, though he considers himself Krytan (and, I believe, did even before meeting Jennah and joining the Seraph).

Tim.6450:

-Also why must Queen Jennah marry Nobility? Because to be quite honest Logan has a high standing (remember he helped slaying Zhaitan who made human corpses into mindless slaves). So the populous would be quite accepting of such marriage. So is there any laws/magic regarding this, that are unchangeable?

The personal story step I mentioned is before Zhaitan’s demise. At that point, Logan’s just one of the highest ranked members of the Seraph (Captain) and a renowned hero who slew 3 dragon champions in Destiny’s Edge. Though I say “just” that’s quite the feat as it usually takes (lorewise) an army to take down a dragon champion – if they can. But as I mentioned, this is brought out as an issue that the Ministry would take advantage of, not so much as something that wouldn’t be accepted by the populous.

Sadly, seems that the line I recall isn’t up on wiki. I recall this from either The Trap or Kellach’s Attack, as I never did The Queen’s Justice; but the one I didn’t do does have a similar line by Jennah when asking her if she cares for Logan: “He is like an angel sent from Dwayna to be at my side. If things were different, or if Kryta were at peace. then perhaps…” Another, less similar line, is “No, Advocate. I have enough servants—I want a partner. Logan must be free to make his own decisions. I made such a mistake once before. I won’t make it again.”

So maybe I’m misremembering the bit about the Ministry and Logan not being nobility… though I could have sworn I saw that… and it may be that Jennah loves Logan but dislikes how he acts more like a servant than a lover.

Tim.6450:

-Also is there a possibility to ascend to nobility (a lower form of nobility perhaps but nobility nontheless.)?

Nobility had to come from somewhere, right? So most likely, it would be like our own nobility of old – promoted to such rankings by the royalty as a reward for service to the crown.

Tim.6450:

Also if I remember correctly the statement came from Countess Anise (correct me if wrong). But from what I understand from playing the game is that Anise does not have Logan in high regards (I’m thinking about the scarlet drama in Divinty’s Reach, poor Logan). So would it possible that Anise was lying and there is a way. (Would be some cool living story stuff. First gain Anise’s approval or find the method yourself and then help Logan to execute it.)

Possible. But I think removing or reducing the corruption in the Ministry would be a requirement first. Like eliminating Caudecus.

Chrispy.5641:

Time passes in this game/story, and that time changes a person.

If Logan was a person with a certain sense of humor several years ago, he might not be anymore.

I wasn’t ignoring that, actually, given that all of my quoted pieces of evidence were from the personal story and dungeons.

From start to end, he’s someone who adapts (starts out in EoD as a charr hater, grows to brolove Rytlock; becomes overly protective of the Queen due to Snaff’s death, grows to accept she can defend herself, and grows further/shrinks to hate not being in the know of the Queen’s safety), and someone who tells jokes in situations (a trait that has remained persistent since day 1 of our knowledge of him, and remains to this day though he’s grown colder after Snaff’s death). This was my entire point – I didn’t ignore half of the story there, but was showing that this happens, both in old Logan and current Logan.

Chrispy.5641:

And If you take a moment to read through some recent (which is relative, its still almost a year old) dialogue between Logan and Anise in Scarlet’s Playhouse, Logan still seems way too hung up on protecting his queen to do anything else or trust anyone else with protecting the queen, like he was the year before, and like he was several years before that. It seems like he is infact, not that open to changing himself for good or bad.

It seems more like a case of Gwen – one step forward, one step backwards. He makes progress, but then he withdraws back to his old self once the reason to make progress (killing Zhaitan in this case) is gone.

Though I wouldn’t say Logan doesn’t trust others with protecting the queen. Logan got kittened off because he was completely left out of the loop for protection. He didn’t even know the queen had extra precautions and protections – and this was done so Logan would give a “proper response”. That’s why he got annoyed at Jennah.

Kalavier, it’s never stated whether Naga and krait are related or not. It is the Forgotten and Naga which are said to be unrelated.

Sons of Svanir are not Icebrood. Sons of Svanir are not corrupted (except their long-standing members, particularly their shamans whom are “blessed by Dragon”).

CHIPS.6018:

Adaptability 0 – He is too straight forward to adapt to the changing situation. He doesn’t crack jokes. He isn’t spontaneous and rarely surprise anyone.

………….

Logan

Oh dear. Oh, mercy. The White Mantle is upon me. Woe! Lamentation! Is this the end for poor Logan?

Logan

Isn’t Kudu a girl’s name?

Doesn’t crack jokes, huh? That’s ignoring the joke cracking that happens throughout Edge of Destiny.

And… “He is too straight forward to adapt to the changing situation.”

Logan Thackeray: I’m glad Jennah’s safe, but I realize now that her safety is temporary. Everything is temporary, unless the dragons can be stopped.
Logan Thackeray: The dragons can’t be defeated by one person, or even one nation. There has to be another way.
Logan Thackeray: Do you think we can overcome our mistakes, my friend? Make up for things we’ve done?
<Character Name>: I know we can, Logan. Mistakes make us human. It’s rising up again that makes us heroes.
Logan Thackeray: You’re right. I’ve been too focused on keeping the queen safe. I love being at her side, but maybe that’s not where I can best defend her – or Kryta.

Logan Thackeray: “Then I should remain as well. To help keep an eye on him.”
Queen Jennah: “No, no need for that. I appreciate your rescue, but you have your own journey. One that leads beyond Divinity’s Reach.”
Logan Thackeray: “There are dangers that threaten you here.”
Queen Jennah: “There are dangers that face all of us, Logan. All of our world. There are things only you can do.”
Logan Thackeray: “You’re right. So much has been left unfinished. Much to make amends for. I should go.”

Yup, doesn’t adapt at all.

CHIPS.6018:

-snip rest-

I think you’re ignoring half of Logan, honestly. But you have a tendency to ignore half of the story to further your argument, I’ve noticed, and trying to argue otherwise is like batting one’s head upside a wall.

Uh… Because Kralkatorrik is the one who killed Glint. She was alive when Kralkatorrik awoke – and he beelined to her lair, where he killed her. This is completely shown in Edge of Destiny.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Thats my starting point. The NPC that I am searching for mentions that all records from the past declare him as dragon of decay and not of resurrection.

And he doesn’t resurrect. So where’s the point here?

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Even there is a difference between those who serve him for unknown reasons and those who were corrupted. Those who serve him “voluntary” are mostly mesmer.

None serve him “voluntarily” – it’s outright stated that only Jormag accepts voluntary servants; all other dragons corrupt to enslave.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Among the personal story are mostly undead abominations (not risen). Why are they there? Why do we have to see the whole rite instead of looking in the huge building beside the temple which is directly connected?

You seem to mistake names for actuality. We do not ever see an actual undead. Risen are always called undead by NPCs, and some NPCs share the name of “undead” for said reasons. We do not see a single non-Risen undead in the game.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

They should know that it doesn’t crush my morale. It stirs up hatred. Do you want me to believe blindly everything our allies tell? Most individuals surely tell everything like they perceive, but among them are some that know more and use us for their plans. The Pale Tree is one of the worst. He lies purposely to keep us unaware of the things that really happen in Tyria. I don’t want to say that it’s objectives are bad, but it’s hard to trust one that lies deliberately.

Pay attention to the NPCs’ lines after the event. Their morale is questioned.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

The priest I am talking about is a human Balthazar priest and doesn’t initially live there.

The priest you speak of doesn’t exist in Hoelbrak.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

An endless spawn of elite on the way to the airship is not well manageable for most people. The fight at the airship hurts, but is manageable. The point is more the last attack, the only moment where we face him directly. He spawns weak minions which are close to one-hitter (and not all are risen). The major theory that the dragon embody magic might be wrong if we can weaken a 200 year eating dragon by “simply” cutting the closest magic source. And after reading DE, I would say collect the right items and put a good tactic and you can kill an elder dragon alone.

The elite spawn isn’t endless, unless they made it harder since release. And all are risen. Again, we do not see a single non-risen undead in the game.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

And the charr are elder than humans? How does this fit with common lore? Even the Jotun mention some gods which doesn’t fit the span around exodus. Are there older gods mentioned anywhere by name?

The only other mentioned gods that may be real would be Zintl – which is basically the sun, worshiped as a god by hylek – and Koda – the kodan’s god.

Also, Thruln the Lost’s the only mention of the gods in jotun history, no other jotun or jotun record mentions such.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Now the problem arise: What’s up with the other gods? Balthazar backpack has two dragon heads and a priest in Hoelbrack complains about a lost connection to him. Another race which probably worships Kormir tells about the loss of connection too. Grenth silenced? Dwayna missing? And Melandru …?

As mentinoed before, two hounds. And the priest in Hoelbrak – Samuel Cuttler – is a priest of all gods, and does not talk about losing connection to him. I don’t know what “another race which probably worships Kormir” refers to at all, and there’s no mention of losing connection to her beyond the standard “the Six Gods have gone silent” stuff that is shared equally for all gods. Grenth is not silenced, no more so than any other god.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Further: Zhaitan ate 200 years magic and started with a god and then this? Why does the magic not just get released in an explosive way like it would have been with Abaddon? Who was the Orrian dragon that we slaughtered, was it really Zhaitan? Why was he so weak?

Because the magic of a god is vastly different than the magic of a dragon. Dragons consume and store magic – they’re basically living Bloodstones – and when they die, if Glint’s corpse is any indication for an Elder Dragon’s corpse, the magic slowly disapates. Gods, however, contain indestructible divinity which needs a host (the god) – and makes the host blinding in appearance. This is why Abaddon’s magic threatened to explode when Zhaitan’s did not.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

And our allies? The Pale Tree? Why didn’t he tell us? What is this that the society cannot withstand? What did Trahearne really in the artesian waters and why didn’t the Pale Tree show us the right place to go in his vision? Why no clarity? What was Scarlet’s plan?

I fail to see the relevance – or the coherence – in these questions.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

I like to hear opinions or other speculations where one or another gods is at the moment. Maybe Zhaitan devoured all, but that’s unlikely.

Priestess Rhie says the gods are “not in the Mists” – so the answer for where they are is likely in another world. Grenth is definitely alive, as one of the Seven Reapers mention that Zhaitan stole from Grenth.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Grenth is silenced is a reference which comes from in game. He may not be his own master or whatever.

Source?

Horst Hortensie.5420:

The power to resurrect death is probably taken from Lyssa and he consumed her is my point. The other gods might be in a comparable bad situation, but not necessarily caused by Zhaitan and I don’t see indications that he uses other godly powers.

Zhaitan doesn’t resurrect. He creates undead – kind of sort of. Really, they’re only called undead because they were corpses. But the risen are no different than any other dragon minion, except that Zhaitan prefers (note: we have proof that he can corrupt living beings) to corrupt corpses.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Undead and Risen. The difference between these two is very simple. We have some rare appearances of undead through the game and most times they are along with risen. The ones are kind of walking dead, dead bodies which just don’t stop moving and the others are resurrected dead. Effectively the risen corruption is a form of life that we fight and that fights us.

Resurrection results in neither risen nor undead. Risen = dragon minions of Zhaitan. Undead = corpses turned into a necromancer’s minion. There are many kinds of undead, but not all risen are undead and not all undead are risen. Those whom are resurrected are living, full out. You cannot perform resurrection on a rotten corpse (or rather, it was never done).

Furthermore, we do not see a single non-risen undead in the game – the closest we see are ghosts and risen.

SpeedFiend.4521:

• The Ossuary is the source of risen abominations, not the actual risen themselves. It is basically the Orr take on a graveyard, hence why Zhaitan does his parts shopping there.

One of many graveyards. Each temple had their own catacombs – though we only see the ones for Grenth’s, Balthazar’s, and Lyssa’s temples. And then we see the Royal Tombs too. Zhaitan raided all of them. And the Lyssan Ossuary was not simply “the source of risen abominations” – they just happened to have been making abominations there; there could have been other places they were made, and we see in that story step that standard thralls were made too.

oookay, in order:

Horst Hortensie.5420:

A random NPC which still try to locate again told about Zhaitan that he usually is the dragon of decay.

I’ve never seen this, only him being called the Elder Death Dragon or Elder Undeath Dragon – I myself have called him a dragon of decay because all he corrupts decays instantly, but never have I seen him called such. Are you sure you’re not mistaking a forum post for an NPC dialogue? If he is called such, it’s one of the more obscure event-dictated dialogues.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

This lead me into an investigation were he got his power. I checked his follower, his minions and his “champions” with less satifying results.

Why do the Elder Dragons need to have a “source” for their power? They consume any kind of magic, and use that for power.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

First mesmer. A lot of the enemies we encounter and are serving Zhaitan are mesmer. Might be common or not, but basically all other classes are missing.

Risen are well known for using deception and lies in their dialogue and certain events – such as one event in Mount Maelstrom where a risen will pretend to be Jennah, Zojja, Caithe, or other damsels in distress. It is not surprising Zhaitan has a heavy use of mesmers, but all other classes are there – from rangers to warriors to even guardian-like professions and elementalists and necromancers. But Zhaitan’s heavy use of illusionary mesmers is little different than Jormag’s heavy use of mesmeric telepathy-like abilities. It’s just a methodology, not a source of power.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Second Lyssa. Aside from the temple of the forgotten god, many personal missions go into areas of Lyssa or are somehow referring or connected to Lyssa.

Depending on your personal story choice, you can go to the temple of Lyssa, the temple of Melandru, the temple of Dwayna, the temple of Grenth, and the temple of Abaddon without skipping any of them. Only Balthazar’s temple is not featured in the personal story. And there is only one sight related to Lyssa in the personal story – during Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead where you go to the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance. There are far from “many” missions that go into Lyssa-related places in regards to Zhaitan.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Still let me without an answer who rises until I played the ossuary of unquiet dead again. A very long personal story to locate were Zhaitan forges his risen. Interesting is the funeral rite.
Trahearne: This next step was largely ceremonial, but was observed by rich and poor alike.
Trahearne: They offerred a valuable gift in an attempt to persuade the priests to resurrect the dead.
Trahearne: Naturally, the priests refused, but the act of offering and accepting rejection remained a part of the rite.

The question to resurrect is usually rejected, but it doesn’t mean Lyssa doesn’t have the power to do so. Additional the people wouldn’t ask her and offer gifts.

This is more of a ritual like attending church on Sundays for Christians, rather than some magical ritual. As said as well, it wasn’t Lyssa but Grenth and Dwayna whom held power over resurrection in the past. Though that doesn’t outright mean that other gods couldn’t, let alone their priests, but that it wasn’t their jurisdiction.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

At this point I thought for a long time: huehuehue the ponderous tome is right and we fight secretly Lyssa, but I was wrong.

How is the Ponderous Tome “right”?

Horst Hortensie.5420:

With the new introduced trait farming I encountered the temple of Lyssa and suddenly heared what probably was there the whole time, but I didn’t notice:
Risen Priestess of Lyssa: Zhaitan will devour you, just as he devoured our gods.
Risen Priestess of Lyssa: My goddess was mere prey for the dragon. Despair!

Lyssa is dead! I cannot say for sure if the priestess refers to all six. We know that Orr is the nation of gods, but most areas and most stories told in Orr are about Ilya or Lyss

I would take any and all Risen dialogue with a grain of salt. They’re known deceivers who use lies and deception to try to demoralize the enemy. Like framing the leaders for incompetence (letting allies down fear storyline), or trying to convince you to join their ranks (Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan’s line, and many of the risen in the Sea of Sorrows novel).

Thalador made a good post a long while back about how all the temple priests/High Priests in Arah basically act the opposite of how their gods’ teachings are. I’d love to link it but it was a long time ago so I don’t know where it is any longer.

A: His only point was that they’re called norn. They’re not Nords despite the same “style of culture” because they’re only the same “style of culture” due to the shared norse inspiration. I somehow doubt that nords are shapeshifters who pride legends over all else and are individualists.
B: Actually, they refer to the player character, who suggests Trahearne be the leader because he’s the one who is unrelated but liked by the orders. In fact, it’s a plot point that the orders would never have met together if not for the player character.
C: He doesn’t call it his story, actually. He does say it is his Wyld Hunt to cleanse Orr and that’s what the final few story steps are before we go after Zhaitan, but this is no different than Caithe saying it is her Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan, or Tegwen saying that her Wyld Hunt is to kill the norn champion that you kill in Shards of Orr storyline.
D: I recently did it and there are some nameless mooks from Vigil and Whispers present – not sure about Priory though – but Kalavier’s point remains. Only Trahearne knows the ritual because he spent 23 years studying Orr and how to reverse corruption. Also, this is not an issue of Trahearne’s Wyld Hunt but Trahearne’s appearance to non-sylvari. If you played a sylvari first, I guarantee you’d have a MUCH different view on him – it seems to be a case of whether people have played sylvari lvl 20-30 PS before meeting him on Claw Island for whether they like him or not.
E: They are sitting on a high wall – or on the other side of it. They cannot tell who are allies and who are not. Especially when the enemies consist of all five playable races. The drill wasn’t showing they were struggling at all – people call it a drill but it’s actually an access tunnel entrance (the drill part being used to drill the tunnel) used by dredge to get around.

Trahearne existed because he played a role that the player characters couldn’t fill. Player characters, due to the nature of being an MMO, cannot be “the well-known leader of the famous group”. Just like how Kormir and Prince Rurik and Master Togo and even Mhenlo all played roles that the players could not be in an MMO-styled storyline. He was never the main character, he is never in the spotlight except the final 3 story steps. He always defers to you. He would be nowhere without you. The player character always chooses the course of action, the player character always ends the threat. Trahearne wasn’t even there to fight Zhaitan – and it’s stated so! YOU are called the Dragonslayer in Victory or Death. YOU are thanked by Destiny’s Edge. YOU are called the Champion of Orr by King Reza. Not Trahearne.

Honestly, do those who hate Trahearne even bother listening to or reading the dialogue?

And I disagree that the heroes played “minor roles” – I mean, Marjory created the antitoxin to the Tower of Nightmares, Rox and Braham were there the whole time in Flame and Frost, in the front alongside the players. They’re very much not minor roles or just there to narrate. The last few steps had exposition dumps so it may seem like that recently. The only hero one can say played a minor role is Kiel – except for the whole “is now a councilor” bit.

Edit: To your added bit about him letting you decide the course of action, that isn’t a case of “its up to me to find it for him” but “he’s telling you where things are, you get to chose which route to take, they’ll both work but doing both is unnecessary.” Unless you’re referring to the Artesian Waters – which he doesn’t know either (but goes with you to find out so it isn’t a case of “you find it for him”) because it’s lost knowledge. Not even experts know everything on their fields, y’know.