Guild Wars 2

It’s one of the orange (middle tier on timer) boss slots – on par to Shatterer, Claw of Jormag, Taidha Covington, Megadestroyer, and Modniir Ulgoth.

NPCs last year did say that DragonBash will return. So I’d be upset if not.

I think Tequatl’s body being “hacked into” after Rox took its tail counts as a “confirmed death”.

Keep in mind that the megalaser used for Tequatl with the update was purchased and upgraded by the Vigil – its stronger than the previous one, though still not enough to kill Tequatl outright (no doubt due to not having the stuff that was made to counter Zhaitan).

Also, Rox does know that Tequatl kept coming back stronger and smarter when he was defeated previously – and during such times (read: all events before Tequatl Rising update) are outright said that he survived and simply fled to return.

Of course, looking deeper, I found this line from during Tequatl Rising:

“I’d toast my victory with some Iron Whiskey, but I lost my flask in this swamp. I wonder…if I stuck around, could I get a better trophy from the next Tequatl?”

I’m pretty sure she did mention Tequatl returning even when beaten in her ambient dialogue, but sadly wiki lacks such lines. And while the wiki doesn’t have it, I’m pretty sure Warmaster Narru also mentions that Tequatl is “dead” rather than “beaten” when you kill him now.

Erm, Kryta aren’t “children of Elona” – the country was originally established by Orrians, and was later colonized by Elona over 300 years later.

Orr and Elona were originally established around the same time, though Tyrians were of divided tribes for 105 years, when Ascalon was founded they united under King Doric (those of Orr may have united sooner, but Doric wasn’t crowned until 100 AE, the same year Ascalon was named, though not the year settlements began there, it should be noted). Elonians, however, began a kingdom 5 years after settling in Elona. Nonetheless, the humans who became Orrian, Ascalonians, and the original Krytans made landfall the same year those who became Elonians did.

BTW, it is not a confusing mess. It’s just jumbled and not laid out properly because we don’t have all the dates. But when we’re told that Kryta was colonized, that is not when it was founded. Even as far back as Prophecies, we’ve been told that King Doric ruled over the three Tyrian kingdoms (Orr, Kryta, and Ascalon). So it isn’t like Mazdak brings in completely new lore.

The only confusing part is Orr becoming independent, because Orr is heavily hinted to be the first of the kingdoms, rather than Ascalon (as it was a “prince of Orr” whom established Kryta before the Exodus of the Gods). It likely derives not from name of the kingdom, but rather that Doric decided to rule primarily from Ascalon instead of Orr.

As to humans being brought to Orr from the other world – while this may be true, it should be noted that when humanity arrived in 205 AE, it was via boat. Per both jotun and human records. This indicates that while humanity may or may not have been brought the world at Orr (remember that Orr were religious fanatics to a point, so it would not be surprising for them to “alter” history for their favor, no different than Christianity doing the same to Celtic and Norse mythology in the past).

Ascalon is, without a doubt, of Orrian origin. Proof lies in King Doric.

I will note, lastly, that there is no indication that the devs “keep changing their mind” – as I said, we’ve been told since day 1 that Kryta existed before the Exodus, when King Doric lived, and it should be noted that “established as a colony” is not exactly the same as “first time established as human living space.” Even pre-existing cities, lands, and countries can be established as a colony. Even if its via purchasing between kingdoms (ala Louisiana Purchase kind of stunts).

The open world is stuck in time. Except when affected by the Living World. All non-LW events happened in 1325 AE, though some (those mentioned by LW events/changed dialogues) still occur later on. We can still experience it due to the nature of a persistent world, and the like. Tequatl was redesigned as an open world raid boss content, and thus left open for such reasons, but storywise he’s dead.

In similar lights – we fought the Twisted Marionette only once, and it was a succeeded event, in terms of the lore (this was outright stated during a LiveStream by Angel McCoy). Similarly, the Escape from Lion’s Arch content only happened once (and before the content of the refugee camps) – the whole waiting for the miasma to dissipate is the actual lead in to Battle for Lion’s Arch, which again the meta event there only happened once and was succeeded (as it leads into the Scarlet’s End instance – if the meta happened multiple times… Scarlet was resurrected and such would have been acknowledged).

Tequatl was – unlike the Claws of Jormag or the Shatterers – one specific dragon champion. Whether it is now is unknown, but its unlikely as each of Zhaitan’s champions seem to have unique names, rather than titles like the Claws of Jormag and the Shatterers.

CHIPS.6018:

1) The biggest reason I do not buy the body memory theory is because of “Death, Good!” Since nearly every Risen says something, it is safe to expect that Aliyana’s body will also say “Death, Good!”

Memories do not give an opinion like that. “Memory” can only say something from back when they were alive (that’s the rule). “Death, Good!” is not from when they were alive, since this is an current opinion.

I mean yes you can argue that person, when he was alive, genuinely believes that “Death is Good!” Sure this can happen. Some people are weird. But we are not talking about just one or two guys. All the Risen can express opinions like this.

Either Zhaitan was talking to us directly though that body or it was another soul inside. All speculations, of course.

Maybe he got those spirits from the Underworld. Maybe he got them from the living world (plenty of ghost around). We don’t know.

You seem to be forgetting a very important part of what makes a dragon minion. Dragon minions – all of them of the three dragon minion types we see personalities of (Risen, Icebrood, Branded) – are fanatically devout to their dragon. Regardless of their state beforehand. This goes even for the more mindless ones because they share a hive mind. They do not hold individual consciousness. And more importantly they do not have opinions. Think of it like this:

• Physically, dragon minions are turned into some form of altered element (ice, lava, crystal, etc.).
• Mentally, dragon minions are brainwashed.

They hold no free will – this is the entire point of the Forgotten ritual used to free Glint – and as such they cannot form opinions. Even the mindless ones are like this, where all they know to do is three things:

1) Lurk and Swarm.
2) Follow orders.
3) Be ever-faithful to their dragon.

So “Death, good!” is not the individual’s opinion. Because the individual has no opinion. They’re stating someone else’s opinions. It is their words, their wordings, but not their opinions – not their will.

So Risen Thralls do not have opinions. It is not a case of memory or not. It is an enforced belief by Zhaitan onto these mindless husks that only know how to kill unless pushed around by champions and lieutenants.

And as stated, we know he got some spirits from the Underworld. The Keeper of the Temple is one such case.

CHIPS.6018:

2) That didn’t really answer my question though. My question is why would anyone even bother to use minions, when they can have undead using Hundred Blades and Meteor Shower? Why even bother creating these sub-par spells?

If there is memory inside dead bodies, what is stopping the “good-guy” necromancers from using actual undead (instead of minions)? Is it illegal somehow? Are the “good-guy” necromancers so weak and useless that they cannot even get one undead to help them? What was the reason?

Necromancers do not envoke hive minds in their minions, unlike Elder Dragons. Keep in mind that a risen is not your typical undead. Risen are dragon minions first and foremost – they are only undead in the physical sense, not the mental or spiritual sense.

Necromancers have no indication of being capable of raising a body who’s soulless husk retains memories of past actions or knowledge. Only Elder Dragons (not just Zhaitan, but at least Jormag too as Jormag has seen to have minions made from norn with bashed in skulls, and later-stage minions are just ice and bones).

CHIPS.6018:

Here is my opinion of an undead:

Undead are capable of fighting “totally independent” from its summoner.

Sorry to say, but your opinion is wrong here. Necromancer minions are always constantly considered undead. Both mechanically in GW1, and lorewise. The very first quest for necromancers in Prophecies outright states this. After learning how to raise the most basic minion in GW1, the Bone Horror, Verata will say this:

“Fantastic, raising a bone minion, isn’t it? There’s nothing quite like controlling the undead. You’ll need to see another trainer before you can learn a trick like that, but I will give you a couple of skills so that you can begin your training to become a true Necromancer.”

There are more cases, but this was just the first ever shown to players in the history of Guild Wars.

Death of an Elder Dragon does not result in death of its minions. So sayeth at the end of the personal story.

Though, except for one case, ArenaNet has been intentionally vague with Zhaitan’s state after Arah story mode. They tend to use “defeat” rather than killed/died/etc. Only in two interviews did they ever hint to Zhaitan’s death – one was before release, when it was still intended for Zhaitan’s Rest PoI in Arah exp to house Zhaitan’s corpse, and the other was more recent (back in July ‘13 area) where they mentioned that a possible story they’ll go into once expanding Orr’s plot is the Pact going to investigate Zhaitan’s carcass (the term “carcass” being used over corpse/dead body/etc.).

Anyways, it’s mentioned in the LW that Tequatl’s dead – before he was just retreating, but Rox claims he was killed at least, and took part of his tail as a souvenir. Rox’s words, during Wintersday (this time was only to charr player characters):

->When he calls, you’d better answer.
He knows I’m here and that I helped kill the dragon lieutenant they call Tequatl, so he’ll summon me. I just hope it’s soon. That Tequatl tail is stinkier than Braham after a battle.

And during The Origins of Madness:

Rytlock Brimstone: Soldier! Report! Where’s my Tequatl tail?
Rox: Back where I’m bunking, sir! I’ll go get it immediately.
Rytlock Brimstone: Wait. You took down Tequatl.
Rox: As reported, sir. I sent you a missive requesting an audience.

-> You fought Tequatl by yourself?
Oh, cinders, no. There was a small army there. I just nabbed a piece of its tail. Others hacked into the rest.

So plot-wise, Tequatl was KIA’d in 1326 AE – about a year after Zhaitan’s defeat.

And yeah, it would be “only a matter of time before we finally kill him” – as we did. We don’t know why Tequatl got stronger – but it’s possible that Anet will tie in the increase size of Orrian risen, and the powerboost of Temple bosses, into the lore like they did Tequatl later on. It may be that when an Elder Dragon dies, the connection does not sever and the minions receive power still – but with no more being siphoned to the dragon anymore, it’s a finite resource (under this theory) and would eventually all leave the dragon’s corpse and into the minions/surrounding area (making the minions stronger and stronger – and as minions are killed off, the magic would, theoretically, funnel into a smaller number, making those that remain even stronger).

Shiren.9532:

Is it possible that the conclusion that the Shadow of the Dragon is a representation of Zhaitan simply be a flawed conclusion from NPC PoV?

Completely so, but unlikely that the Pale Tree would make such a blunder, or the PC wouldn’t mention s/he felt his/her Wyld Hunt wasn’t complete to Caithe at the end of the PS.

Shiren.9532:

I kind of viewed the player character’s Wyld Hunt to face all the Elder Dragons, not just any one (whether it be Zhaitan or Mordremoth). The dragon is symbolic of the player sylvari’s future defending Tyria against all the dragons.

It is possible that the Wyld Hunt is to kill all. It is possible that the PC will gain a new Wyld Hunt. The Pale Tree mentions, if you talk to her during the instances she says it is your Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan, that she believes it is your duty to save Tyria many times.

Specifically though:
Avatar of the Tree: You are destined to fight for Tyria’s future. Zhaitan will be the largest of many obstacles?

So yes, fully possible the Shadow of the Dragon is “all Elder Dragons” rather than “Zhaitan”.

Tamias.7059:

If we have dragon champion world bosses for Mordremoth (which we almost certainly will), then they’ll have the same appearance as the Shadow of the Dragon, because why bother creating another giant plant dragon model when you’ve already got one?

They’ll bother with a new model if Mordremoth’s dragons look nothing like the Shadow of the Dragon. It is fully possible that Mordremoth’s minions will look entirely different than standard vegetation. The closest we have to “Mordremoth minions” is in CoE, which could easily be reusing models for the sake of keeping its designs hidden.

What if, rather than being all full of plantlife, Mordremoth’s minions are more like the Stonewood trees of the Maguuma, or the Stalkers of GW1 – that is, more like dead plants than living ones? Or perhaps they’ll be more flamboyant, like the Eye of the North above-ground plant creatures – bright colors and flowers, a deception of niceness to contrast its poisonous nature.

We simply do not know what Mordremoth’s minions look like – despite your constant belief that we do.

And it isn’t like they don’t make new models for the Living World content, right? :p

Tamias.7059:

Yeah, I can really see how discussion of a “Scarlet may be Mordremoth’s champion” theory is pretty off-topic here, in the “Mordremoth’s champion?” thread :P

The thread is solely about the model used for Shadow of the Dragon being a dragon champion, as the OP did not know of the Shadow of the Dragon’s existence and the model was put next to Zhaitan and the seen dragon-shaped dragon champions. It wasn’t so much a thread on “Mordremoth’s champion” but more of “what is this? Is this a champion of Mordremoth?” but I digress.

Tamias.7059:

anyway, the Shadow of the Dragon’s head shape probably just comes from the fact that it’s a reskin of Tequatl. Doesn’t have to be more complicated than that. All the dragon-shaped dragon champions have the same rigging, and if you’re designing a boss that’s only going to be in a single area, you’re not going to bother with a new mesh.

It’s not a complete reskin of Tequatl, actually, as the legs, wings, back, and tail are all rather different. Only the head is similar, TBH, which is far more than can be said for the other dragon champions, whose only similarity is the same animation rigging.

And it doesn’t have to be more complicated than that because of the model, true, but because of the various mentions of calling it a representation of Zhaitan.

Tamias.7059:

Caithe’s exact words are “Be brave, sapling. There is a darkness here, a poison intruding on the Dream. You must show courage, and be a beacon in the darkness.” (“intruding” implies the Shadow of the Dragon is something not originally of the Dream, so not a vision). Where does Serimon say Zhaitan? On the wiki page for Fighting the Nightmare, he only says “a dragon”. In any event, he’s not going to be privy to any information that Caithe and the Pale Tree are not.

I didn’t say Caithe said it in the tutorial, but rather in the game (I thought it was the first PS instance in the Grove though wiki’s lacking in all of those regards – or it was in the same instance the Pale Tree said it). Anyways, Serimon says it in the cinematic at the end of the tutorial:

<Character name>: “She and I fought side by side against a poison in the Dream. I saw the shadow of a terrible dragon, and I felt the Dream call upon me to defeat it.”
Mender Serimon: “By the Tree! A Wyld Hunt, so soon? And such a momentous task. To be a Valiant of the Wyld Hunt is a difficult charge. Bear this calling with pride.”
<Character name>: “I will. But how do I begin? One does not simply awaken and rush off to face a dragon.”

A minor misremembering here. Serimon doesn’t say it is Zhaitan, but does say it is your Wyld Hunt, which is the important part, and to kill a dragon. It is because of Serimon that the PC says to the Pale Tree later on:

<Player name>: If I may ask, Mother—in my dream, I also saw a fierce, horrible dragon. I’ve been told it is my Wyld Hunt to face this monster. Is that true?

to which the Pale Tree says:

Avatar of the Tree: I fear that it is. A Wyld Hunt is a sacred thing, a burden placed by the Dream upon the strongest and the bravest of my children.
Avatar of the Tree: In your Dream, you fought an Elder Dragon face-to-face. Only two of my children have had such a dream. You, and Caithe.
Avatar of the Tree: All sylvari fight the dragon’s servants, the undead, but I believe you will face Zhaitan itself. I also believe you will prevail.

The Pale Tree is certain it is a Wyld Hunt. But only believes that it means Zhaitan. Though Caithe later says at the end of the personal story that her and the PC’s shared Wyld Hunt is over (in the Fort Trinity instance during Victory or Death, when talking to her), and there is no mention of lacking relief to Caithe, thus indicating that it is indeed over:

Caithe: Congratulations, Commander. Our shared Wyld Hunt started together, so it’s fitting that we end it together. We’ve more to do, but for now, rejoice: this victory will become part of the Dream.
->Let’s hope it inspires the next generation of sylvari.

When you take this – and the rest of your post – all it means is that the Nightmare made the Wyld Hunt’s representation tangible within the Dream, made it “real” and harmful.

Ignoring the derailing off-topic “Scarlet may be Mordremoth’s champion” theory that gets shoehorned into every topic on either, the Shadow of the Dragon is said to be a representation of Zhaitan (thus not accurate, design-wise this would be done to keep Zhaitan’s appearance hidden until later – this is likely why it highly resembles the head shape of Tequatl) by not just the Pale Tree but Caithe (iirc) and the Mender you speak to just after the tutorial, and a show of one of your two Wyld Hunts (the other chosen by your bio options).

The mention of seeing shadows of the Elder Dragon is also made on the official website for Guild Wars 2, which says a few sylvari who’s Wyld Hunts deal directly with the Elder Dragons and their strongest champions will see this shadow of the Dragon in question. So chances are it is Zhaitan, since we eventually go to kill him (and others go to fight other Dragon minions). Though it should be noted that what the Pale Tree actually says in regards to the PCs Wyld Hunt, is not just to kill Zhaitan, but to save Tyria multiple times, including against Zhaitan.

Snow beasts were basically as much bigger to jotun as bears are to humans. So it would be as close as “relatives” and not the same.

Agroman.7190:

Also, although the wiki states it, I have never seen the actual source for Grenth being associated with destruction.

It’s ambient dialogue in DR, where a “necromancer” mentions Grenth being too morbid. To use the exact wording:

Citizen: Of all the gods, I think I like Grenth the least.
Citizen (2): Strange thing for a necromancer to say.
Citizen: He’s just so morbid. Death, destruction, darkness- it’s all too depressing.
Citizen (2): You may want to rethink your choice of profession.

The reason why this theory is airtight is simply due to the lack of knowledge. It cannot be debunked outright due to too many unknowns.

It is just as likely for Isgarren to be a tengu, as it is to be a new name for Verata (all arguments – age and profession – against Verata is more or less invalid ever since Angel McCoy’s espirits interview) or a White Mantle fellow, or even a muraat or seer.

We don’t know when the tower was moved.
We don’t know how long Isgarren was there.
We don’t know many things, and depending on even just the two specified, can alter the possibilities greatly.

While it may be “airtight” it seems unlikely to me simply because it feels driven by the desire of:

• Playing a tengu.
• Knowing more of the oldest, active GW mystery.

Use the in-game gemstore’s deluxe edition upgrade.

The only issue I outright see is the “threats outside Garrenhoff” part. They’re not talking about destroyers but “body snatching” “war in every direction” and how the “people out there are practically barbarians.” (quoting their ambient dialogue).

To your last two points: that line only comes from a very cryptic line from one particular tengu whom says when asked to say something “we’ve forgotten” : “All right. This is not the first time the dragons have risen, though it may—or may not—be the last. That remains to be seen.” But that may be something as simple as them having conversed with dwarves and know their myths which include the Elder Dragons. The wiki is never a primary source for things in those articles. Not since even 2007 with GWW (there is something ironic I could mention… but I won’t for annoyances’ sake).

Anyways, Elder Dragons is not “dragon magic” since dragon magic is specifically the corruptive magic of an Elder Dragon (by all indications shown at least). Elementals are made in two forms, one being when magic is potent in an area and enchants the land itself, the second being when an elementalist creates one. Isgarren is the latter.

Yes, it’s the orphan storyline. BTW, the inscription on the model is generic for multiple tombstones. Think its stuff like “Where’s my rez shrine” and other nods to Grenth and GW1 resurrection.

The Nightmare Court being influenced/corrupted by Mordremoth is the “tamer” side of the “sylvari are Mordremoth’s dragon minions!” theory, which I would be more inclined to argue (the NC one) over the other simply due to all the pieces of evidence for and against both theories. But it is fully possible that both are unrelated.

We have not seen a single sylvari soul, even when we hear about sylvari who’ve died. The sylvari themselves don’t even know what happens when they die, unlike all other races who know with certainty that their souls move onto the Mists if they don’t have lingering issues. Some sylvari believe they too go to the Mists, others think they return to the Dream and will be reborn. But no one knows for certain. And even with insane sylvari dying, not one exists in the Mad Realm (which is basically the asylum of the afterlife for all races).

Even with only 23 years prior to GW2’s release timeframe, lacking the knowledge of where souls go when so many died, both firstborn (Riannoc) and secondborn included, is a massive oddity, which heavily implies – though, I will note, not confirm – that sylvari lack souls.

Basically it is a case of “lack of evidence is serving as the evidence of lacking.”

There’s also a Horas the Traveler in SW Snowden Drifts, who sits in a tent next to an unnamed dolyak, that says he’s traveling about and will be heading into Gendarran later.

It should be kept in mind that A LOT of events have natural earth-shaking effects to them. It is, as such, hard to tell if you’re experiencing something new, or if it’s just an event you usually aren’t around for. And this goes for everyone.

Nerelith.7360:

Secondly, so what if it makes Play more complex and Interesting? Isn’t that what we crave from games? Complexity?

Not really “complexity” so much as “depthful game possibilities” IMO. You don’t want complex gameplay – it makes it hard to get into. Hardcore players who know what they’re doing, or have the time to learn, will want complexity, but not your average gamer. Your average gamer wants “possibilities” more than “complexity” and they are different. This video explains it better than I can.

Nerelith, the balance stuff is on the developer side. One of the major things that motivated Anet to move on from GW1 and create GW2 was the massive number of skills and the even more massive number of skill combinations. And secondary professions was a major issue for balancing problems in GW1. I recall hearing back in 2009 that ArenaNet had considered secondaries for GW2 as well, but decided not to go that route for the primary reason of avoiding the GW1 issue of skill balancing being so hard to do. This is also why there are so few skills, and weapon-restricted skills on all professions.

From the players’ side, the only issue was that certain set ups were more powerful than many (if not all) others. They never demanded “dumbing down” but “better balance” – and ArenaNet decided the best way to avoid having balance issues would be to not have so many variables needed to be balanced. GW2 is presently nowhere close to the problems of GW1, and wouldn’t be even with secondary professions, but a few years down the line after several skills and traits get added? Definitely will.

Edit: Since they had considered and disregarded secondary professions, I doubt they’d consider sub-professions (which sounds like they would function rather similarly) for similar, if not the same, reasons. Which is in the end: variables in balancing the professions.

Tuomir.1830:

So, since it’s not the Dominion of Winds that’s behind the gate… then what is? Surely, the tengu wouldn’t build a gate just to kitten off merchants. There’s a fairly large inaccessible area behind it, that can’t be land connected to the Dominion.

So, I can think of three plausible explanations.

1. A tengu port. Means for the tengu to move to Lion’s Arch, and from there all over Tyria.
2. A tengu fort. A fort built to protect the Dominion from north.
3. A second tengu city. Destroyers have surfaced in Dominion of the Winds, so the tengu have started evacuating the populace to another, safer, location.

Originally, the tengu were one of the considered playable races. This may have connected to their lvl 1-15 zone. So I don’t think that it’s any of those, but more of “remnants of the entrance to a scrapped zone which could have anything now”.

In terms of lore, that area was once D’Alessio Seaboard, which had the Temple of Tolerance and a small town further west (which may be Garrenhoff), as well as Hakewood to the east.

So unless Hakewood and the Temple of Tolerance were completely destroyed and never rebuilt, that’s at least where the merchants would be going. The tengu are likely trying to expand their territory (could be due to destroyers), and they’re blocking off that new territory off. But since there’s a gate in Garrenhoff going east (where that supposed starter zone would get its second entrance no doubt – with the third being the dominion of winds itself), the entire area isn’t likely to be solely tengu-controlled. Otherwise, they left their backdoor way open.

Gulesave.5073:

As for that squiggly line on the book map, keep in mind that the map excludes all the rectangular zone boundaries and weird distance tricks that shape the world in the game client. They are two distinct representations of the same world, (three if you include GW1’s map), made from different perspectives and for different purposes.

If you look at the wall from Kessex, you can see that the wall turns dead south before hitting Garrenhoff.

Gulesave.5073:

Distances and landscapes in Tyria are shown to us through varied artistic representation, often using trickery or otherwise skewing perceptions, and should not be taken literally. There isn’t yet a map of Tyria that could be considered canonically accurate.

It’s equally likely that, in some cases, it is the maps that are the accurate ones, and the scales of the game we see are the inaccurate ones. We outright know from Ghosts of Ascalon that some bordering mountains are not there in lore, but used solely for mechanics. We also know the scaling of distances in the open world is far from as large as they would be in lore (as it takes 3 days of fast travel to reach Ascalon City from Ebonhawke, and this is a more or less straight line through the Secluded Glen straight into Plains of Ashford and the Ascalon Basin – the trip of Dougal Keane and co. in Ghosts of Ascalon; while gamewise, it’d take less of an hour in our forced “detour” route).

It’s old. It’s part of the personal story and is the Vigil Keep’s asura gate to Fort Trinity. I think its position has move with the LA living world update, though, as previously it was accessed from the lower level (as there was no upper level there before), again, I think.

You cannot access it until you complete the personal story step called “Battle for Fort Trinity” which is shared by all players.

I did not forget the chicken of Arah p3, actually. If I did, then I wouldn’t have mentioned the Forgotten ritual. Hence why I said “it would be a requirement for the Forgotten’s ritual to be used.”

That’s not the full thing. The cinematic bugs at times (pretty frequently) – there are two things shown happening, and most of the time only one of them is actually seen.

The first has that black cloud condensing, and usually it ends with just that. But the second is a bright light showing up behind the cloud, which is usually missing (or vice versa; the black cloud is missing but the bright light shows up).

It’s supposed to be the birth of a star, where the black cloud condenses into the star – I think it’s supposed to be analogous to gasses condensing and lighting on fire to form a star.

1) Overhauled underwater combat and content.

Honestly, underwater content is one of the largest original selling points of GW2, taking it away from the typical aerial combat. But it is seriously undermined. I personally quite enjoy underwater combat. But the issue is how little attention it got. A few simple things can, IMO, vastly improve it:

• Adding aquabreathers to armor crafting classes, so that they even exotic and ascended can be obtained. This includes multiple models of such.
• Full rune set alterations on underwater gear.
• Unique traits set for underwater, even more plausible to be done with the free trait refund. This is needed because most useful traits are only good above water.
• Underwater-only traits and skills. These are too few in options for what us available underwater, so increasing the variability will help.
• Lastly, improve AI movement so that they do more than just go in your face.

With such changes, I think the underwater combat would be greatly improved.

2) Replayability of Personal Story and Living Story content

My second biggest complaint personally about the Personal Story is their one-time-ness. And for the living world content, the temporary-ness. Simply having a means to replay this content permanently would be a great, but far from only, improvement.

I would also love to see boss fight overhauls throughout the Personal Story because you go from epic tutorial to un-epicness until Blightghast but even that falls short due to the slowness of the story step feeling. And after Blightghast, it is again un-epikittenil you reach the invasion paths, but only if you go with Whispers or Priory, except possibly the Mouth if Zhaitan fight. The Sovereign Eye fight was IMO the only proper fight in the whole personal story, though Commander Seretine was enjoyable.

There’s many more that don’t go with the typical complaints I see, and some that do, that I would like to see improved. But those two are the big ones. A short list of other things:

• Charr tail/horn and asura ear/foot clipping fixed.
• Less reliance on RNG. Makes the game too Grundy feeling.
• More jumping puzzles and mini-dungeons added in manners like Vexa’s Lab. More events too.
• And being able to push NPCs off of edges and make them take falling damage.

To your three points CHIPS:

1) More likely event is that Aliyana’s body doesn’t have a soul. Because with your theory you have the question: Where did Zhaitan get these excess souls where he can just ignore the occasional soul like Aliyana and Romke and his crew?

2) Because necromancers cannot learn their minions’ memories? Or if you mean why wouldn’t the undead use the abilities of their bodies’ capabilities while alive, who says they don’t? It’s not like necromancer’s undead – the more evolved kind, not the shambling piles of flesh and bone that are player necromancers’ undead – aren’t without a variety of capabilities.

3) Because he wouldn’t talk. It is a case of psychological attacks. Rather than “I must slay the soulless husk that once was my friend and prince!” it becomes “I must kill the undead self-aware but not self-controlling body of whom was once my friend and prince!” There’s a big difference on the impact of it, and though it didn’t work to players because “mechanics!”, Rurik was supposed to be a liked figure and a friend (same with Togo, Kormir, DE, the Biconics, mentors, and Trahearne).

That was the point of bringing back Rurik – not Rurik’s capabilities, but his ties to the PC. And a mindless, soulless, husk of a mobile body wouldn’t hold the same impact.

xerxes.3496:

i just think that konig guy didnt want to admit it and was just trying to be more right. that is pretty mean

Thanks for the insult. BTW, I can say the same for jheryn too.

Honestly? I don’t give a kittening kitten if I’m right or wrong. You can prove me wrong go the right kitten ahead. I did not see jheryn saying he didn’t think mursaat were non-native, I saw him say “it’s possible… bit there’s nothing to support it.”

And right now? It feels like you’re trying to gang up on me and make me into the badguy for some kitten able reason I don’t know.

So I was wrong in what jheryn was saying? Alright, I was kittening wrong! But so would you be in how you interpreted what I wrote with the humans being the only confirmed non-natives.

This is all lovely and dandy and all that, but it’s really making me feel hated by the community even if it’s only two or three folks. So y’know what? Don’t want me around? You can just say it. Hate how I am? You can just kittening say it. To my face. Don’t have to make me look like an kitten first, or point how I’m “clearly” the only one in the wrong.

If I misunderstood what jhendy said, then he’s just in the wrong as I am as he misunderstood what I said.

CHIPS, the difference between Shiro’Ken and what I was talking about is the fact that Shiro’Ken are not undead. They are not corpses, they are objects, which is fundamentally different than full out corpses because one is flesh and bone and the other is not. While one may not think it different from a scientific standpoint (both are matter, after all), it is often taken differently from a fantasy viewpoint, and you can even argue it’s the type of material that changes thing.

Shiro’Ken’s bodies may be made of flesh, bone, steel, and stone, but the souls just inhabit the soul part – specifically Soul Stones. Much akin to Soul Batteries and the Door of Komalie.

CHIPS.6018:

Has it been stated that Zhaitan have total control over the whole Mist and Underworld? The fact that we can still enter the Mist in GW2 states otherwise.

I believe Zhaitan captures spirits and ghosts from Kryta itself. Spirits and ghosts do exist in the “living” world. But this is of course speculation.

I never said Zhaitan has taken total control over the Mists/Underworld. But we know for a fact he has pulled souls from the Underworld from the “Cathedral of Silence”: story mission, where the Seventh Reaper states:

The Seventh Reaper: The keeper of this shrine has fallen to Zhaitan. Grenth wishes him returned, but I am too weak to perform the task. Destroy the keeper, and I will amswer your questions.
Trahearne: Thank you, dark Reaper. We will do as you have asked.
Avatar of Grenth: Destroy the corruption. Return the soul of the keeper. Go.

To be returned to Grenth, he must have been taken from Grenth.

And then the Keeper says:

Risen Keeper of the Shrine: I won’t return to the Mists. I’m faithful to you, Zhaitan. Save me!

If the keeper alone said this, I would be doubtful, but backed by the Reaper, even though his wording is a bit ambiguous, shows the case in full.

CHIPS.6018:

Let’s say we see a Risen warrior using the skill “Hundred Blades”. That skill actually would take knowledge/training to use. So who has that knowledge? A spirit/soul inside that Risen? Or was it Zhaitan taking personal control of that Risen and using “Hundred Blades”?

The body’s memory, most likely. Things like reflexes. Or what the brain has known. How the whole “Zhaitan knows all his minions know” thing works is unknown in regards to how much pre-corruption is known – or maybe it was never that warrior’s knowledge, but another’s.

You’re missing my point completely. The wall we see in Caledon and Kessex is one huge wall that encircles the Dominion of Winds. In the novels we see a map which includes this wall and shows it to be fully enclosing – a full circut, without breaks. It does not reach Lion’ Arch. And if it did, then Garrenhoff, a port town, would be cut off from the Sea of Sorrows by said wall – but you do not see the wall there, because it does not extend that far. The Dominion of Winds is within that enclosed wall.

So what’s behind the Shuttered Gate cannot be the Dominion of Winds, because if it were then the wall should extend that far, but that in turn would cut off Garrenhoff from being a port town. So it would be logically impossible for A (the wall extending to Lion’s Arch’s border) and B (Garrenhoff being a port town) to be the case at the same time. It would create a paradox.

Furthermore, prior to the invasions, there were NPCs in White Crane Terrace that was complaining about the tengu not letting them pass along their trade route – this implies that the Shuttered Gate is relatively new, unlike the 100 year old Dominion of Winds, given that if it was as old as the Dominion of Winds (thus the Dominion actually being behind there), the merchants wouldn’t consider that a trade route.

If they were born then to be slowly corrupted, then they weren’t made by Mordremoth. Ergo, not dragon minions.

Being made by dragon = dragon minion; not being made by dragons, and not corrupted by dragons = not dragon minions

Even if the influence is 10/10 or 1/10 or 0.000000000000001/10, it would fall to being a dragon minion, it would be influenced by it even if fighting against it as seen by the guy who gives Icy Runestones.

What your trying to argue wouldn’t work nonetheless.

Also, Zhaitan can corrupt plants. We see this in Sparkfly Fen. His power isn’t to create zombies, but like all dragons to corrupt. His corruption takes the form of decaying matter (thus undead), and even plants and even soil can decay, and he does this. One such case of plants corrupted by Zhaitan. About sylvari immunity – it’s explicitly stated to act the same to both Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik (and yes, those are indeed branded plants and not crystals growing in the shape of plants). Both of whom can corrupt standard plants, but not sylvari – whom simply die when touched by the dragons’ corruption.

Sylvari don’t have souls. Thread debunked.

Interesting thing to note: the image attached in the OP is no longer on Naimi’s site.

A similar thing happened with Edge of Destiny – J. Robert King made mention on Matt Forbeck’s website where Matt mentioned how he enjoyed writing for the GW universe that King also enjoyed such; on his website a new novel titled “Dragonrise” showed up, and was later taken down. Dragonrise was used as a chapter title in Edge of Destiny.

There are other cases where things Anet don’t want known were put up before desired and were subsequently taken down. So I think that concept art is legit for the beginning of season 2.

I would note as for release time – we likely won’t get it until June or July, given the Chinese release this month.

Now, whether this ties to Mordremoth – or just simply to the Nightmare Court – is hard to tell outright. Belinda mentions black market folks, obviously this refers to the bandits and possibly Fort Vandal (here’s hoping we get that as a new dungeon!), so the NC could be related via the Sinister Triad. Alternatively, Jeff Grubb has said that “purple is the color of evil” in the GWverse (this was back in ‘09 or ’10 when people were theorizing a connection between Abaddon and Kralkatorrik due to the shared color purple in themes – in-game, we see purple heavily used in Cursed Shore and Arah areas periodically (such as Desmina’s Hollows)), so it being tied to Mordremoth, whom would be evil, would be unsurprising without it also tying to the Nightmare Court despite shared color and theme. Though if Scarlet’s tied to Mordremoth (we still do not have definitive support for such, despite Tamias’ claims that come about via Occam’s Razor), I suspect his color of corruption will be blue-black (the Aetherized Nightmare Weapons and the Toxic Spores are of such colors).

@Kite: Not everything that’s accidentally leaked and found gets changed. And when it does, most of the time its just superfluous – like the title of a novel.

The only alteration there would have been would be if Evon was elected, so I’ve heard. And that change would have been “Lion’s Arch would have been more prepared” – but that doesn’t mean LA would have been saved, just not as damaged with fewer civilian casualties.

Supposedly, there will be more – and better – methods of changing the plot in Season 2. But keep in mind that the effects of the change (most likely) won’t be seen until 4 months after our actions.

Vendor? No thank you.

I’d rather have account bound on acquire item drops that drop from specific foes tied to the precursors that must then be combined in another location (similar to spawning the Mysterious Fire Creature in Mount Maelstrom) which gives one-time access to an instance (similar to the Nightmare Chamber instances) which you can enter and go through a short quest to get a guaranteed drop of a Precursor. The drops, and locations, would thus be tied to the lore behind the precursors and legendaries, giving that long-desired question an answer.

For example, to get the Tooth of Frostfang, you’d need to get a RNG drop from the Veteran Dragon Shaman in Dredgehaunt Cliffs, one of the three Shamans of Ice/Frost/Hail, one of the three Drakkar Spur champions, and “the Icebrood Atrocity.”http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_the_Icebrood_Atrocity Then combine them at a new interactive object where Claw of Jormag lands, which gives you an item like the Hall of Monuments Portal Stone that takes you to a unique instance in Drakkar Spurs, ending with a fight against a unique icebrood and completing the instance rewards Tooth of Frostfang.

That would be FAR more preferable – though perhaps not challenging enough – than some mere “buy from a vendor” BS.

No worries, that’s why I was explaining it.

Necromancers’ magic is their own – though that wouldn’t stop necromancers (and any other spellcaster for that matter) from utilizing anothers’ magic. If your thought was “all necromancers use Grenth’s magic” then there’s the issue of non-human necromancers.

It was roughly 200 years prior to GW1 that he was imprisoned. Though honestly, his control seems more like the control a king has, rather than the control a necromancer has over his minions.

The issue with your theory, pdavis, is two-fold.

Firstly, even the gods have darker elements. Grenth, for example, is the god of death, darkness, destruction, etc. Balthazar is the god of war and fire. If you go with the core aspects of the gods, you’re left with Death, War, Life, Nature, Knowledge, and Beauty. On the flip side, however, the Elder Dragons are all aspects of nature – there is nothing innately evil about what their aspects are; they are Fire, Ice, Water, Vegetation/Plant, Death/Undeath, Crystal. So this isn’t a case of black and white, but more of “actions” or “aspects of life” and elements. Half of the gods have a darker side to them, if not more; same goes for the Elder Dragons’ elements – they all have a dark and light side to them, the Elder Dragons are just forces of destruction themselves.

The second, is that the Elder Dragons predate the Six Gods by dozens of thousands of years, the Six originating somewhere completely different than the Elder Dragons, whom are said to have “always been on Tyria”. Their origins are unrelated by all evidences.

jheryn.8390:

Nope, you are wrong.

I guess that we’ll have to agree to disagree, since even re-reading it, I am not confused at all in what I was saying. Were there other ways to word it? Sure. But does the way I worded it hold only te meaning you interpreted? I disagree. Either way, this is pointless. I clarified myself, yet you focus on my wording rather than the meaning.

Since you seem intent on focusing on the wording of my posts, rather than what I am trying (from your perspective) to say, this conversation continuing is pointless.

jheryn.8390:

Well, there you have it. I posed a question. That is all. I never, not once, said that I believed Mursaat were NOT from Tyria. I just posed a “what if”. I am sorry you don’t understand that. Still unless you have concrete proof/evidence of anything, you believe on faith, not fact. That is true of history, religion, or crimes.

To play your game: you did not pose a question. You posed a statement. A statement saying “they may not come from Tyria” and supported the statement with the argument of “there is no evidence to argue otherwise.”

What wasn’t my bad was that there is no indication or lore that poses the Mursaat were indigenous to Tyria. Since this is a work of fiction, there is only ‘more-or-less baseless’ speculation about anything that happens in the GW world beyond what has been written or in game.

No where did you question something. So you cannot blame me for reading the above as you arguing for mursaat being of non-Tyrian origin. And even when you try to take a step back, you still held that same feel of arguing for non-Tyrian origin mursaat:

Firstly, I am not saying that they are not Tyrian, just that there is nothing to support that fact. Several creatures/races were brought to Tyria and do not have Tyrian origins. Since they had the ability to traverse the mists, they obviously have access to other realms/places.

So unless someone has concrete proof the Mursaat are indigenous to Tyria, especially in a fantasy setting where other realms are stated to exist, it doesn’t really matter if people believe they are Tyrian in origin or not.

And then, when I said you were arguing for such, you claim I’m twisting your words. Which is another point where you’re arguing against me, not my argument. Which has devolved into this pointless meandering of methodology of arguments and sentence structures.

jheryn.8390:

Yes you did, and yes you did. Where did you quote me verbatim? You didn’t quote me saying anything of the sort. I challenge you quote me where I said it was most likely Mursaat were not from Tyria. You twisted my words and/or lied by saying that I claimed that it is very likely that they are not from Tryia. You cannot find any evidence to support that. None. Quote me where I implied that.

Well look at this! Here are some quotes from my earlier posts. Isn’t it funny that in the last of these I even say that they are most probably from Tyria? You want verbatim quotes? Here you go.

You should re-read my post then, because while I did not use quote boxes like you (I dislike having rows of them back to back), I quoted you still – verbatim. And the fun fact is that you quote the same lines I did! Isn’t it just hilarious how on both sides of the argument, we’re seeing the others’ sentences as something than what the writer intended?

This will be my final post on this unless you actually discuss the topic, and not the means of conveying the topic. This isn’t Speech or English class here, we aren’t discussing and debating how one should properly communicate with others. If you’re going to devolve this argument into talking about my sentences and not rest until I say “yes, I’m sorry, I wrote it in a way that even I could not correctly understand what I was saying” then it is pointless indeed.

“Soul” and “mind” are typically synonymous in almost all fictions and even all actual philosophies. Not a stance I personally hold but still – without a soul, in almost everything there is (I use “almost” because I, personally, have not seen/read/played all fictions so there may be some out there I do not know of, but of those I do know of they always retain this shared concept) to be soulless is to be mindless, and vice versa, as the mind is part of or synonymous with the soul.

There’s really no concrete means of saying this is true in Guild Wars, because it just isn’t ever brought up. But the things without a soul certainly do not hold any free will and do not speak unless sharing mental thoughts with another (dragon minions, and even then, only certain low icebrood and branded are the only ones who speak besides risen), and those with a soul always have intelligence – though sometimes bound by another (djinn, Shiro’ken, Afflicted, risen, etc.).

CHIPS.6018:

Seeing Aliyana’s spirit and body separately only proves that Aliyana’s spirit wasn’t inside her own body. But another foreign spirit (I cannot stress this enough) might be inside Crusader Aliyana’s body. Same thing with Romke.

I don’t think this is even possible, given the fact that we’ve never seen or heard of this happening before. Corpses have always had their own souls or no souls put into them when undead were made.

CHIPS.6018:

And there is no such a thing as semi-intelligent. It is either totally mindless or do have a mind. Speech, any speech, means intelligence. We can see that all Risen are capable of speech. “Death, Good!” is indeed a very simple thing to say. But the Risen must be intelligent to say this. There is no way a “totally mindless” being can say “Death, Good!”

The memories of mere corpses are given to Zhaitan – memory of speech, the imbued fanaticism of dragon minions, this alone is enough to state simple two-word sentence. Self-intelligence is not needed, because they work with a hive mind connected to their dragon.

Furthermore, all of those whom have souls have their own souls – even when the souls were taken from the Underworld. Why would Zhaitan put new souls in, if he can control souls from the Mists and the body’s natural souls are nearby, in Tyria? Makes no sense.

CHIPS.6018:

Furthermore “Death is Good!” is an opinion, further proving the intelligence behind this speech.

The opinion Zhaitan instills upon them. It isn’t their intelligence, it’s Zhaitan’s intelligence.

CHIPS.6018:

Every single word we ever heard from any Risen came directly from Zhaitan. I personally do not believe this, but I am not ruling out this possibility.

That’s possible but I wouldn’t say “every single” as there are risen with explicit different personalities whom beseech Zhaitan, but these are only in those whom show actual intelligence – intelligence beyond simple 1 liners and swarming actions. Some veterans, champions, and legendaries (in mechanical rank), the dragon lieutenants and champions (in lore rank).

CHIPS.6018:

The narrator’s speech also isn’t decisive. He said “soulless army” as if the whole army is soulless. But even you agree that at least some of thee Risen does have soul/spirit inside of them. By soulless, the narrator probably meant “killing without mercy”.

It’s called generalization. Meaning that “not every single one, but the vast majority”. Also, the narrator’s a she. :P

CHIPS.6018:

Shiro’kens and Awakened are stated to have souls/spirits inside. That’s why they are so strong. I believe that Risens/undeads goes along similar designs.

Nothing says all Awakened have souls, actually. Only those whom speak and lead seem to. The officers and craftsmen. The grunts hold no indication of souls, though I may be wrong.

But they’re not strong because they have souls. They’re intelligent because they have souls. Otherwise they’d be lurkers and swarmers, only using more advanced tactics when directed by intelligent of their kind (like in GW1 Orrian undead cases – they flock to the names bosses, and otherwise would just lurk until living come nearby; same with Risen).

lakdav.3694:

Even new risen have some memories of their lives. Conscript the Dead Ship PS mission has a risen captain that finds Elli, the asura with the hologram familiar. After you defeat it, Elli confirms that she knew the asura.

Mechanically, that captain is a veteran. Lorewise, he’d be akin to the weakest ones with intellect per the other veterans with speech (I don’t think we ever see a normal ranked foe with intelligent speech). Which seems to be what most of SoS’s speaking risen seem to be.

Usoku took power in 1127 AE. Xun Rao is an adult in 1079 AE. He would be 48 years older – making him a ripe old man even if he was a young adult during Winds of Change. This seems highly unlikely, especially given how Canthan emperor succession appears to work – which is to the closest male kin of age (often a son). To quote An Empire Divided in this:

This means that although the throne has not always passed directly from father to son, it has always gone to one of royal blood—at most, a first cousin (as seen in several well-documented cases).

To claim this person has been in the works for even 200 years longer seems… even more unlikely. Though it wouldn’t be via resurrection, but magical longevity if such were to occur.

jheryn.8390:

I believe this is what you said:

The only race not indigenous to Tyria are humans. At least that’s confirmed.

I did not misread. If what you said above about humans being the only confirmed race not native was your intention, you formed your supporting sentences poorly. The first statement clearly says that that the only race not indigenous to Tyria are humans. Period. The second sentence says that your first statement was confirmed to be true.

I’m sorry, I apparently forgot a single comma, which caused you to misunderstand what I was saying. If the second sentence was “At least, that’s confirmed” then there probably wouldn’t have been confusion – actually, I didn’t really forget because how I wrote it still means what I meant.

My second sentence does not state my first was confirmed, it states "at least <pronoun replacing “humans are non-native”> was confirmed."

In which case, you misunderstood, and I could have worded it in less confusing manner.

jheryn.8390:

So to say that we have to blindly accept any history as truth because it is written or assumed, is faith not fact.

No, I say “we accept what is most likely until otherwise hinted at”. Without debunking evidence, theories can exist – no one denied, to my knowledge and I certainly didn’t, the possibility of mursaat being of Tyrian origins.

jheryn.8390:

Please do not twist my words to suit your arguments. I never said or indicated there was no reason to believe they are not native. Prove that if you are going to say it. I simply threw it out there as a possibility for thought. You accuse me of saying things that are not supported, but you are doing worse with the claims about my words. Prove where I ever claim that it is is “very likely” that they are not from Tyria. I don’t care if you disagree with me, just don’t lie to suit your needs. I was offering speculative possibilities, you are just trying to prove yourself right with fallacies.

How can I twist your words when I quote you verbatim? No where do you state that mursaat are “most likely Tyrians” – or any variation of such. I quoted multiple times you saying that “nothing supports they’re Tyrian”. One can and most often will read the denial of one side to be the support of another. This is what I said. I twisted no words, I did not lie.

jheryn.8390:

LOL. Straw man arguments are intentional misrepresentations of an opponent’s position, often used in debates with unsophisticated and ignorant audiences to make it appear that the opponent’s arguments are more easily defeated than they are. In other words, you don’t have a strong argument so you tried to make it sound like you do and that those are reading this are dumb enough to just believe you.

There’s two ways of using a strawman argument – one is what you stated, the other is to bring up arguments that other people would possibly use in using the same argument of the present opponent. I do the latter. Perhaps that isn’t straw man arguments though, and something else that I’m just not familiar with technical debate terms to know?

It is magic, however – just racial magic (akin to a dervish’s avatar forms I would argue). If you read the GoA description or saw the GW1 cinematic The Nornbear – or even the norn intro cinematic – you can tell so. To quote GoA:

White fur began to sprout from her exposed flesh and for a moment it was as if her armored form were overlaid with another, ghostly image of a great beast. Then the image solidified, and Gyda was transformed into a hulking two-legged feline […]

Norn transformations are literally an overlain form granted by the Spirits of the Wild, rather than something like traditional werewolves.

If you cannot call it magic… what would you call it?

pdavis.8031:

That does make sense. However, I would suggest that while it (the wiki) states that the Asura had 6 great cities, and scattered citadels BEFORE fleeing, it does state that they did find magical ruins and built upon those. It would stand to reason that Rata Pten is one of those citadels built while still underground, as it’s only the above ground portion of the citadel and it was abandoned some time BEFORE the exile from the depths. But that leaves little Mursaat influence on the Asura.

The six citadels were lost in 1078 AE or later, when the asura were fleeing the destroyers. They were not lost prior to surfacing. They were abandoned during the beginning of their exile, not prior to it.

jheryn.8390:

Seven points of knowledge does constitute knowing little to nothing about them before 1070 IMO. Scientist in the real world know much more about many species and they claim they still know little to nothing about them. So you are wrong if you think that seven points of knowledge constitutes a wealth of knowledge.

Compared to every single race in all of Tyria, 7 summarizing sentences (not the full case, just summaries on individual points – which would be akin to “birds can fly, birds migrate,” etc.) is far from “little to nothing” – especially when most cases, the history of non-human races is exactly nothing. We know more about mursaat history than we know asuran or norn history, and about as much as charr history!

I wouldn’t say we have a lot, I wouldn’t say it is a “wealth of knowledge” – I’m just saying it is more than “little to nothing”.

jheryn.8390:

Where is it confirmed that ONLY humans are not native to Tyria?

You misread. I said only humans are confirmed non-native. If you read both sentences, I followed saying only humans are not native with “that’s confirmed, at least.”

jheryn.8390:

And who is to say that other “gods” or the races themselves did not migrate to Tyria?

The lack of such other gods kind of hints to such. If you argue that route, then by racial histories, you can only slap Forgotten, kodan, and quaggan on there – but kodan religion claims they were born on Tyria, not brought to Tyria, just like dwarven myth.

jheryn.8390:

Since Tyria’s history is so much older than we have account for, it is stupid to just assume anything.

Then why were you assuming the mursaat were not native?

jheryn.8390:

I guess you cannot grasp that I said that they very likely to be from Tryia in my post above, and instead want to pick things to contradict. The bottom line is, until we have some more ancient history given to us, no on can say anything for sure.

I did not see you claim such. Even in re-reading your posts just now. What you claimed is, to quote: “What wasn’t my bad was that there is no indication or lore that poses the Mursaat were indigenous to Tyria.” “I would just submit that there is also nothing to support that they are of Tyrian origin.” “I am not saying that they are not Tyrian, just that there is nothing to support that fact.”

You do not deny the possibility, but you countlessly say that there’s no reason to believe they’re native, and constantly press for them not being native. This is, to me at least and I wouldn’t doubt others reading your posts, you theorizing that they are not native. You most certainly never gave hint to them being “very likely native” when you’re constantly arguing that there’s zero support for what you now claim is “very likely”.

jheryn.8390:

Also, comparing Dwayna giving birth to Zaihtan to the possibility that a very powerful, magical, realm traversing race not being native to a world is obtuse.

It was a strawman argument to show “if you argue that something is possible because of a lack of counter-evidence, well there’s no evidence to say otherwise for this so it is equally possible.”

jheryn.8390:

Although I consider you to be a paragon of GW lore knowledge, I think that it is hard for you to deal with things that are unknown.

Hardly, I constantly state that many things taken as fact is, in fact, unknown to us. Like whom the entity is – everyone kept going “it’s Mordremoth” just because Mordremoth woke up. I said that wasn’t the case, we don’t yet know whom the entity is. Just one of many cases. Another being Saul being taken to the Maguuma – something long taken as fact, but I hold the stance that it isn’t confirmed. Or the belief that mursaat live(d) on the Isle of Janthir.

Those risen in that final battle in SoS don’t really act like the grunt risen though. More of the lower ranked sentient minions. There is more than just two kinds of sentience in Dragon minions after all – ad evident by all the veteran-ranked risen that show sentience, sentience I might add, on par to those talking ones in SoS sans Whiting whom was far more sentient acting and self-serving (like the Mouths, Eyes, and Morgue Lethe).

CHIPS, Romke’s Final Voyage and Crusader Aliyana proves your belief wrong. While some risen have souls, it is obvious that not all do – and those that are confirmed to have souls are the intelligent ones, and by intelligent I mean "can say more than simple phrases like ‘death, good’ and can do more tactical actions than zerging all the things – aka more intelligent than your average risen you encounter, which includes Romke and his crew’s corpses).

Also, I recall the GW1 undead of Orr being outright called soulless. As are risen (‘His soulless army surged from the waters, hungry for destruction.’) on a few occasions.

That’s interesting Aaron, but I don’t think such exists on other models. I’ve gotten close to them and saw no irregularities – only the shirtless have I not seen such.

Either way though, that doesn’t look like the Edge of Destiny description to me. I took that more to be akin to this or the left two here.