Guild Wars 2

Malyck says to the west along the river. If you ignore the map boundary mechanics that force both ends of the river to flow towards the center, the map would go towards The Falls or Tangle Root (or the area inbetween).

Ventari’s Refuge wasn’t anywhere close to a river.

This, incidentally, is around the supposed location of Mordremoth’s awakening (Magus Falls – pass Thaumanova, across a short arid wasteland, and then into a highly vegetated place).

Tamias.7059:

I’m not sure Elder Dragons fit this. Everything we know about the Dragons says that they are a natural force within Tyria, just as much a part of the world as the grawl, or the dwarves. They have a role within Tyria’s ecosystem, and some kodan believe they are a force for balance. I mean, everything comes from the Mists if you follow it back far enough, but Dragons in particular seem to each embody a different aspect of nature, rather than standing opposed to it.

People say they have a natural role, but almost all ties to nature and natural roles come from NPC speculation, the Tyrian’s point of view, and them simply not understanding the true nature (for lack of a better word) of the Elder Dragons.

In fact, by upholding the stance that they are a natural force here, you are arguing against your own “survivors of an ancient race” theory from earlier.

As we learn from Edge of Destiny, Jormag and Kralkatorrik are both very much malignant – we see into their very thoughts. So they aren’t the impassive forces the Zephyrites and others take them to be, as those third person perspectives are overruled by the first person thoughts.

Tamias.7059:

Zhaitan’s appearance was far more draconic, for most of development, and was likely changed to make it appear more distinctive than a generic fantasy dragon (Primordus, who we have also seen in the flesh, looks a lot more like a traditional dragon). Ree kinds of picks up on this in this interview and suggests that one of the reasons for Zhaitan’s appearance is due to the long campaign of weakening by the Pact before we encounter it.

Ree also says that the art in the cinematics is how the players perceives Zhaitan would look like, before actually seeing it. How something was during development isn’t so important as the final result – which is what we see in-game. We sadly do not know what Zhaitan looked like before being weakened, sans from the Sea of Sorrows very generic description of “Dark, tattered wings, as if something long dead was rising from the grave.” (page 65) which doesn’t give much (though does give the mental image Zhaitan may have been undead himself like many presume just from him controlling undead). We don’t really see much of Primordus – just a head and neck, leaving the rest of the body to look like whatever ArenaNet wants it to look like.

But even so, imps are fairly draconic looking, wouldn’t you say?

Tamias.7059:

Although this does remind me of something else. drax’s theory that the Dream is a part of the Mists would mean that the sylvari are, in a sense, demons, although not necessarily malign ones. We know that with a suitable template, demons can exist without necessarily being evil. In fact, much of the description of Razah is also reminiscent of the sylvari – think of all the talk of human templates, and needing a purpose.

Drax wasn’t the first to come up with the theory – not publicly, at least. I mentioned it over a year ago on these forums. So it isn’t just “Drax’s theory.” (No, it doesn’t matter, but ever since the “WoodenPotatoes theories that <insert common theory presented on the forums>” spread – attribution to theories has bothered me).

Though I wouldn’t say sylvari are demons even if that theory rings true – because their bodies are not born from the Mists, but the Pale Tree. They’re much more akin to the kodan Voices, and less so to the norn Havrouns, whom have mental ties to the Mists.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

Dreadspawn Maw creates Torment Creatures, Abbadon creates Margonites, the Terrorweb Queen creates Terrorwebs, Kanaxai creates Oni and Grenth creates Grentches.

Why do you theorize that Elder Dragons are Demons again? Is it because Zhaitan is Eldritch Abomination to your mind? Most undragon-like thing I see about it is the multiple heads/wings/tails and even that dosen’t seem all that absurd for a Dragon Lich.

Dreadspawn Maw and Terrorweb Queen are procreating. Abaddon (not Abbadon) isn’t creating but changing. We have no proof that Grenth created the Grentches (rather we have evidence to say that’s not the case ), and Kanaxai doesn’t create either, he changes.

I already explained why I theorize ED are demons. Read above. It has nothing to do with their corruptive abilities, but the fact they survive off of magic. Imps, a type of demon, feed off of elemental magic and grow bigger and stronger as they feed off of more elemental magic – very similar to Elder Dragons, except the imps are more restricted in what they can and cannot consume (if they eat magic that isn’t of their element, they die). Similarly, other demons (dryders, torment demons, Margonites) consume souls, which are heavily implied to be tied somehow to magic – and Jormag also consumed a soul before (Owl Spirit).

I would take zone events happening continuously with a grain of salt, really. While most are done in a way to act like they’re repeatable, not all are, and Arah is pretty much the last thing chronologically prior to the LW stuff.

But they do grow from the branches, and they drop down when the sylvari awaken.

I don’t know where you got that they grow from roots. The Pale Tree’s sylvari pods are from branches.

Quite a lot of risen have non-necrotic skills though, Mickey, so I wouldn’t attribute much to Tequatl having water-based skills. Especially when they consist primarily of shockwaves or using necrotic grasps to pull one underwater.

Though I think Zhaitan’s magic will be said to be spreading throughout all risen. Early last year they had increased the size of Orrian risen, and made the temple events tougher. They could easily tie that into the Tequatl Rising plot (and if they’re smart, will). They also made them more shambling in their posture, which goes against the novel’s descriptions of them being all upright and the like.

Erm, Mickey, Dustfinger.

Changed beings are not demons. Demons are 1) creatures living within the Mists directly, and 2) made directly from the Mists – many are malevolent by nature, and most look like incomplete or messed up copies of other things. A few rare (in the whole scope of things) are like Razah, a complete copy and not as malevolent.

Margonites are only demons in the notion that they were changed into demons; the act of being changed isn’t what made them demons, but what they were changed into. Though one can argue that they’re not “real” demons and this would be true – half of the whole “Margonites are demons” come from mechanics.

Urgoz is not a demon – Urgoz is a forest spirit, a spirit of the land (much akin to the Spirits of the Wild) who had gone insane from the petrification of the Echovald Forest (his home, land, and in a way, his self) – kind of similar to Minotaur Spirit’s rampaging when the Sons of Svanir hunted minotaurs down constantly (see norn personal story “Honor the Spirits” or w/e it’s called). And he isn’t corrupting so much as driving folks insane. Something that can be done with even mundane means (torture, isolation, sleep deprivation, etc.).

We are not considering Elder Dragons to be demons, rather it is my theory that they are a type of demon.

Juggernauts are not demons. They are constructs. The mobile plants are not demons, they’re magically affected plants.

Kalavier.1097:

Where did Caithe and Trahearne see Zhaitan? Curious because I’ve not really heard about it. Completely believable though, as Trahearne is stated to have went through Orr a good bit before the game starts even.

In the sylvari lvl 10 story step, just before meeting Trahearne for the first time as a sylvari. If you talk to Caithe in the final instance after the Pale Tree says he returns, one of her dialogue lines, in response to asking her what she knows of Zhaitan, is: The undead dragon at the heart of the cursed land of Orr. Only two living creatures have ever seen it: myself and my brother Trahearne.

bullyrook.2165:

You’re forgetting too: you don’t need to see an Elder Dragon to know his location. “Risen are coming from Orr! Whatever could be the cause?” In the case for Kral, his corruption is pretty danged easy to recognize. “Lets see: sand… sand… sand.. Oh, look!, purple crystals! sand… sand… sand…”

And even if they wouldn’t tell the average joe, some kind of info would be leaked to the Commander if the Pact at some point.

But Branded aren’t coming from the desert. They’re going to it. Which is really the only indication we have other than last sighting that Kralkatorrik is in the Crystal Desert still.

A commander. There’s more than one commander. But it wasn’t relelvant. Why mention more than what’s relevant until it becomes so? The Pact has been focusing solely on Orr. Orr was the testing ground for the three orders to see if their cooperation would have an effect. The Order of Whispers wouldn’t spare info on the other dragons, until the test is complete. And since the Pact has been proven worthwhile, we’ve not seen the Pact’s actions – just been told they’re still cleaning up Risen and recovering from their losses.

If the Order of Whispers can tell people where Kralkatorrik is beyond “in the Crystal Desert” – or where Jormag is beyond “in the Far Shiverpeaks”, or where Primordus is beyond “in the Depths of Tyria” – then they wouldn’t do so until it becomes useful information. Zhaitan was only known to be in Arah itself because of Caithe and Trahearne – elsewise it is simply “Zhaitan is in Orr”. But this is no more specific than what we have for Jormag who has been around far longer.

Specific information doesn’t exist. General does. And you’ve been demanding why specific information is unknown in this thread thus far, just because he fled the big ol’ splooch of Brand. Yet you don’t question “why don’t we know the exact location of Jormag in the Far Shiverpeaks” or “why don’t we know the exact location of Primordus in the Depths” – in fact, we’re less certain of Primordus’ location than Kralkatorriks. Yet the Depths is easily accessible. Just grab a drill and go until you hit some tunnels. So why only complain about Kralkatorrik? All of the dragons, even Zhaitan as far as the Orders come in, only have the general details revealed.

Let me put it this way…

Would you risk putting a white British spy in North Korea? No. You wouldn’t, because the risk is too great and it’s rather illogical. Same thing for sending out scouts into Elder Dragon territory – except with the added issue of “anyone who’s caught becomes the enemy.”

That is one of the more popular theories, more or less.

But dragon minions don’t just drop dead with their control gone – this was a point made throughout. When dragon champions are slain, minions become sporadic and/or retreat; and as we see with Zhaitan and are told at the end of the personal story and see in Arah explorable, the risen’s only difference is that they cannot spread corruption (as easily) – they still revere Zhaitan as they did before his defeat.

bullyrook.2165:

Why would they tell? Simple, to raise awareness of the dragons. That is something that is stressed through the whole game, that the races don’t understand the threat the dragons pose.

How would they tell? Simple, through their shady underworld contacts. LA was perfect for that sort of thing.

We haven’t heard a whisper of the trouble he is causing elsewhere in the world. For all we know, he may already be gnawing on Joko as we speak.

The Order of Whispers aren’t doomsayers. They’re manipulators and spies. They’re trying to solve the lesser problems to give the races room to go after the dragons. There is no awareness issue that telling where Kralkatorrik currently is would solve. The Dragonbrand makes the threat of Kralkatorrik as clear as anything else ever could – charr see it as a threat, but asura don’t because they’re so far away. And the asura still wouldn’t see Kralkatorrik as an immediate threat even if they’re told “Kralkatorrik is in the Crystal Desert at xyz location!” – in fact, they’d be LESS inclined to view it as a threat because he’s so far away and there’s actual tabs on him. So if he’s going to make a move… they’ll know when he does so.

But again, you miss the more important part of my post:

Very few people have seen an Elder Dragon and lived to tell a tale.

Zhaitan’s known to be in Arah because he never moved. But even then, only two people had ever seen him and lived – Caithe and Trahearne. Jormag’s known because he’s leading an army south, but again few have seen him and lived.

So anyone who sees Kralkatorrik… will be in so much risk that the chances of survival are slim to none. And bam, another branded to Kralk’s army.

Who’d risk such a thing when Kralkatorrik isn’t an immediate threat? Answer: no one.

So even if they know where Kralkatorrik is and what he’s doing, they won’t tell just because 1) no one important who needs to listen will listen, 2) idiots will race off to their deaths and expand his army, and 3) he’s not as immediate as the other dragons, given how recently he woke up and he isn’t doing more damage currently.

Why spread knowledge that can make Kralkatorrik a threat, when the Order of Whispers have – until Zhaitan’s defeat – thought the Elder Dragons immortal and the only hope was to put them back to hibernation (something we’re told pre-release and was poorly shown in-game).

I’m doubtful, because if you think of it…

If we remove the risen, what story will Orr have? What enemies to merit events and map completion?

And even then, what of the newer players, who have not yet beaten the personal story? Since the story of GW2 is told in three formats (dungeon, personal story, and open world), you cannot just remove what is effectively a third of the story and expect the same flow. But at the same time, ArenaNet has said no to phasing.

So don’t expect the existing Orr zones to get cleansed. Maybe new zones will open up (there’s room for 3 zones even when taking into consideration the size/space of the Arah dungeon).

Unanswered, but Logan claims Rytlock looted it from Ascalon.

Knowing that there are many Ascalonian-made Fiery Dragon Swords made in the design of Sohothin and Magdaer, it wouldn’t be surprising if the sword we saw Rurik wield after Nolani Academy mission was not Sohothin but one of the dups for xyz reason. Given that the names and uniqueness to the swords of Rurik and Adelbern weren’t shown until the pre-GW2 lore articles, it wouldn’t be surprising.

The lore is there, but the difference between GW2 and other MMOs is that it isn’t shoved in your face. It’s there, and its used to create the world, but it’s never said things like “jotun are very prideful” – rather, it shows that they’re prideful by how they act and speak. You have to read between the lines here.

GW1 was a bit more blatant, but the main plot was still fairly so, however it suffered when you take in the voice acting (ArenaNet has never been good at getting superb voice overs).

The richness of the lore is there. Though the Living World has been well below sub-par thus far to many’s view (mine included). Still, you get far more lore than you’d get from any other MMO.

Avariz.8241:

Initially, before, I thought the same as you. However after reading your essays, I was prompted to think further, and now I speculate that the Gods of Jotun might not be the gods of men. Surely, your Thurin would have called the gods of men, The Six.

However, we know that he’s talking about the Six Gods because of the ties to humanity. Unless he is saying that another set of completely unknown gods began to favor humanity – which just seems unlikely.

Hence why I hold the stance of Thruln the Lost passing the blame from his prideful race to someone else entirely.

Avariz.8241:

But then again one possibility is the Six subsequently at a later date joined the pantheon of the initial God/s of Jotun when the god/s was/were replaced by the new arrivals as the Jotun themselves were by other races that included men.

Unlikely. Upon arrival – according to the Orrian History Scrolls – Dwayna, Melandru, and Balthazar each did a rather godly deed. Though nothing prevents that source from being wrong too.

The mention of the gods always seemed odd to me. But not for any reason brought up in this thread. Rather for this reason:

“The closest thing that the jotun have to “religion” is their firm, avowed belief that their blood is magical—that it is powerful, and akin to the divine. Each clan of jotun reveres their ancestors and can trace their lineage back to some powerful giant-king of lore. Many of the tales of these giant-kings have taken on the feel and tenor of religious myths, and each clan calls to their legendary blood to empower them, see them through trials, and ensure them victory. While it cannot be said the jotun “worship” their ancestors, they certainly attempt to emulate them through conquest, single-minded self-absorption, and personal pride.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Savage_Pride_of_the_Jotun#Religion

The jotun do not worship. They hold no gods. So it seems weird that Thruln would all of sudden say “yes, we had gods” when all else says otherwise.

Tamias.7059:

At first glance, this is the most surprising of Thruln’s revelations, but is actually probably the easiest to explain. We know that the dragons had gone back to sleep, and the gods felt that it was safe to return the magic stored in the Bloodstone to Tyria, so they “unsealed” the Bloodstone and magic flowed back into the world. This is what Thruln means when he says that the gods once favoured the jotun, in the same way that the humans believe that they were the favoured ones, when first given magic.

Thruln interprets the withdrawal of magic and subsequent redistribution as the gods becoming unhappy with the jotun (more on that later), but as we all know, it was actually a response to the pleas of King Doric, who sought to end the wars that had broken out over the course of hundreds of years. The gods drew magic back into the Bloodstone and shattered it into pieces, limiting the power of magic.

I do not think this is so. From The Savage Pride of the Jotun:

Some historians believe that the age of jotun magic may even pre-date the coming of the human gods and the creation of the Bloodstones.

Far from definitive proof, but argument enough against it. This also fits with the very first thing you quote of Thruln – especially if we take the “age of jotun magic” to be equivalent to the Age of Giants (which Thruln’s dialogue suggests).

Tamias.7059:

From what Thruln says further down, the Age of Giants could well predate the gods unsealing the Bloodstone (which then would have acted to only further the greatness of the jotun and norn, rather than beginning it), so it’s possible that the jotun were helping the humans survive while also not having magic, but the fact that he says that the gods noticed the humans and betrayed the jotun after this, without any mention of the races being given magic, suggests that they did in fact have magic.

In your first post, you quoted Thruln saying that the Age of Giants was before the Elder Dragons fell asleep.

This means that it predates even the seers creation of the Bloodstone, let alone the Six Gods’ unsealing of it.

And his line about the gods not noticing humanity is contradicted by records in Cantha and Tyria, where the Six Gods knew of them well before-hand. Even the fact that they brought humanity to the world contradicts this.

To me, Thruln’s lines about the gods all stem from one thing:

The jotun’s pride. They are outright said and shown to be an immensely prideful race. They come off as too prideful to say they or their ancestors are the cause of their problems. They certainly are too prideful to worship another race’s gods, and as I quoted from the blog post on jotun, don’t worship any gods at all; the blog also states that they revere their ancestors – so unless they’re calling their ancestors gods, it comes off as Thruln is projecting the blame (perhaps not his own doing but his tale is doing it nonetheless). The only jotun in the entirety of the game that I have ever seen acknowledging the jotun’s faults is the ghost of Elder Thruln in the norn Defeat Our Ancient Foes storyline.

I don’t think there’s some deeper meaning to Thruln the Lost blaming the gods – it seems like it is all just him trying to pass the buck of the jotun’s fall away from the jotun themselves.

In regards to the Elder Dragons consuming more magic and becoming more powerful, this is only true in the long term unless the rate of their consumption grows as well. And if it doesn’t, then it may mean that the time in which the Elder Dragons are awake grows, and perhaps even that one or two Elder Dragons alone could remain awake indefinitely. On a narrative, the very difference between the dragons, their means of corruption, and their “element” changes their difficulty in facing. With only corrupting corpses directly, Zhaitan would be the easiest to deal with in regards to its corruption because the others can corrupt living beings (thus it turns from “the fallen become our enemies” to “those we send become our enemies”).

As to your origin theory – this was more or less presented to me in the same mindset by Thalador some time ago. No means to debunk it, but I don’t think the Elder Dragons were of this possible ancient dragon race. Zhaitan looks far to un-draconic when we fight him, looking more like an eldritch abomination made to look somewhat draconian. Plus, can natural beings live without actual eating? Seems a bit weird to me (though possible…).

Very much like how Spear of Torment demons look like mockeries of centaurs, or Herald of Nightmares demons look like Ntouka Birds. And just how imps consume magic and grow in size and power as they do and demons consume souls – I think that the Elder Dragons are effectively demons that are made in mimicry of the ancient dragon race, and have since found means of changing and enslaving other beings from all that magic they consumed – perhaps in a similar means to how Abaddon changed the Margonites (you got to admit, there is a similarity there in terms of physical changes).

Yeah, what’s said isn’t that Eir’s young but rather: " She is capable of great things, as are you. She must not be tempted to stray from her path. Wolf walks beside her. But you mustn’t worry. He walks beside you as well, my son. Never forget that."

During the BWE, with the heirloom storyline I recall seeing that Eir was a child when Hoelbrak was being built – though I haven’t seen it since so I may either misremember or it was removed since. But that line would place her to be likely around (or over) 100 years old – which wouldn’t be out of place, given that norn are well fit even at old age. Would also fit with the constant mentions of Eir being called old (by everyone except Knut Whitebear). Though with what remains in-game: we know she’s old enough to have a 10/11 year old son when she formed Destiny’s Edge. Which would place her absolutely no younger than mid-20s but most likely no younger than mid-30s. But given norn mentality, it seems unlikely she’d had wanted a son (let alone had one with a famous warrior given the whole “relationships between equals” mentality of the norn) even at such an age. I expect just out of norn culture let alone also aging speed, that they tend to have children at a much later age than other races (well, except the longer-living races like ogres).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

lakdav.3694:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jennah is said to be the last Krytan royal heir, so I doubt that Anise is her sister. There’d be no reason to hide this information unless Anise is an illegitimate heir.

Wasnt there a maybe other? The OoW guy says so in the Human PS at some point.

He insinuates that there is (“She’s the last of the royal line!” “Perhaps not the last…”), but knowing the Order of Whispers that could easily mean some commoner descended from some long forgotten younger brother a hundred years back, or just an oblique statement to make the Order seem to know more than it does. It doesn’t seem enough to support a theory that Anise is Jennah’s sister.

You know, Ive’ heard about these lines, but not once have I ever seen them. And they’re not on the wiki, though the articles now look complete. Except talking to the NPCs during The Trap – if that’s where its from, then that would explain why I’ve never seen it.

But if Aaron is quoting verbatim (I’d love to see a screenshot of the lines since its not on wiki…), that sounds to me more like “there could be someone we just don’t know about, like there was with Salma.”

I think he means that the “pod” used to be Malyck’s has roots growing. But I’d attribute that to being a reuse of the Nightmare Court pods from Twilight Arbor.

Well, assuming that the hive mind attribute that is shared between risen, icebrood, and destroyers also go for the other three dragons, then yes there’d be some telepathic mention.

There is another talking branded – but in the novel Edge of Destiny. A chieftain branded who’s only thought process is “follow Kralkatorrik!” and “attack Ebonhawke!” (after Kralkatorrik strikes lightning at Ebonhawke in passing). You also get into the thoughts of a once-cowardice charr who gets branded as Kralkatorrik wakes up, which only shows thoughts of desiring nothing but to serve Kralkatorrik.

Though there’s also a difference between hanging out in Gendarra post-LA destruction. And he still has the original outfit in Vigil Keep. And name. Kind of tells me outright “different dude” – not like there can be only one person with the surname Keane anyways.

Plus, from what he said before LA was destroyed (“I mentor the younger Vigil members about the dangers they may face in the field. Of course, I do keep an eye out to see if anything interesting pops up. still an adventurer at heart, I guess.”), sounds like his job is training recruits rather than being on the field.

Charr age at roughly the same age as humans. But since they’re far more military-based, most charr don’t live to old age. And those that do tend to go out on what they call a “final patrol” so that they die fighting.

I’d put Rytlock at early 30s/late 20s myself, but not earlier and not past 40. But it’s hard to tell really. He does seem like a charr who’s still relatively young in Edge of Destiny – I’d put him in his early 20s in the novel (which would put him late 20s in-game).

They have different appearances. You can see Dougal Keane in Vigil Keep (previously he was at Fort Marriner) – he even has dialogue of Almorra allowing him to not wear the standard Vigil uniform (while Crusader Keane does). It’s likely a relative.

And Tobias, if you did the storyline then Crusader Deborah does recognize you – she did when I went through it on my ranger. You had to talk to her as there was no changed spoken dialogue lines (such as in the cinematics), but there was recognition.

You’re rather missing my point bullyrook.

• Even if they can go past the Desert Gate, admitting so would be admitting a crime. So they won’t admit it. Ergo, any knowledge they have of such – if they’ve done such – wouldn’t be announced publicly.
• Well he can turn into a sandstorm. But for people to know what he’s up to requires three things: 1) that they can find him, 2) that they can survive after seeing him (note: Zhaitan was awake for 100 years and remained in Arah throughout, but only two people had seen Zhaitan and survived – Caithe and Trahearne), and 3) that they spread this information. Furthermore, as shown here journeying just to the corpse of Glint takes weeks (though from where is unknown, but this is for Zephyrites we’re talking about), so exploring the full Crystal Desert? That’s going to take a LOT of time and resources – the Crystal Desert is shown as being very harsh, even to the prepared, and it is much larger than we see in the GW2 world map (extending both south and east). So even with 7 years, mapping the whole desert to find a moving target isn’t guaranteed (but still, you’d need people who’d risk their life and the possibility of corruption to go into the desert to search for Kralkatorrik in the first place).
• I never said Kralkatorrik isn’t surrounded by corruption – just that he isn’t at the bottom of the Dragonbrand; two very different things. In fact, there’s little need to corrupt the land of the Crystal Desert, unless he’s going to make minions out of it or spread his corruption somehow akin to Zhaitan with the Artesian Waters, as it should be noted that the desert is full of his crystallized blood (per Edge of Destiny – which mentions that there’s even such found scarcely in the Dragonbrand). However, as I said above, the Crystal Desert expands further than we see… so what keeps Kralkatorrik to have created his swath of corruption off the map? Furthermore, the accuracy of the world map that’s unexplored is questionable in specific details – after all, Southsun Cove existed before we got access to it, and it wasn’t on the world map by that point – furthermore, the Dragonbrand begins at the big lake in the middle of the Blood Legion Homelands, but we can only see it starting further south than that – so the world map isn’t guaranteed to show where Kralkatorrik is, if for no other reason but to represent what players/common Tyrians know.
  Also, the Order of Whispers don’t keep tabs on any dragon directly. They keep tabs on the dragons’ influence. But even if they did, as Kalavier said – why spread this information yet? So adventurers seeking to make a name of themselves will ride off to their deaths as they do with Jormag and Zhaitan?

Jennah is said to be the last Krytan royal heir, so I doubt that Anise is her sister. There’d be no reason to hide this information unless Anise is an illegitimate heir.

Blockade of ships off the coast of Claw Island? If such a thing existed, ships to Southsun Cove wouldn’t have been possible.

You’re likely referring to the ships on the world map – sadly, this is a map image that’s stuck in time, and shows the ships that are there for the Battle of Claw Island (the ships are no longer there during Retribution, I believe, and certainly not there after).

If any blockade of Risen ships still exist, it’d likely be between Orr and the Ring of Fire – at the Strait of Malchor.

But how long would it take to remove Orr’s corruption and the remaining risen? Really, as long until Anet says so. But even then, should such happen… why would Tyrians go to Cantha, whom kicked everyone out? There’d be no reason to go to Cantha until Anet gives a plot reason – which they won’t soon at least.

Kalavier.1097:

Do you have the source of that available? Simply because I’d like to see it for myself so I can factually say so to others..

I cited an interview in this thread already in which Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee talks about Zhaitan’s “carcass” (to use Jeff’s exact wording) and his spirit (though the way she talks about that, I’m doubtful she means a soul but rather the lingering after-death effects of Zhaitan). There was also a twitchTV livestream interview with Jeff and Ree in which they said we’d be able to see Zhaitan’s corpse – though this was before release, and as we can see in-game, the corpse was removed from being viewable.

All other mentions simply state his defeat.

Kalavier.1097:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They took it out because they changed the model. The original was more like the concept art we’ve seen in the trailers – much bigger, and much more of a standard european dragon.

Erukk.1408:

Man, can you imagine the amount of effort it would take to haul Zhaitan’s body to a safe and secure location for analysis? They would either have to cut it up to manageable pieces or haul the whole thing in-between a dozen or so airships.

For both of you…

-snip quote about current model sizes-

And for you.

My point remains unchanged.

They took Zhaitan’s corpse out after beta because Zhaitan’s model was changed. In the image I linked the grayscale image is the original – the one that was taken out. It is a much larger model, and far more standard European dragon looking, whereas the modern model – while large – is smaller (the original model was about as bigger to current Zhaitan as current Zhaitan is bigger than dragon champions).

Not sure what your post had to do to Erukk either. His point remains unchanged as well – it’s too huge to haul on its own without major endeavors.

Unknown.

Edit: Sans Caithe, same goes for all DE members – and most major non-sylvari modern NPCs to boot (I think Taimi and Braham are the only major NPCs beyond Firstborn sylvari we know the age of – oh, aside from Dougal Keane and Killeen).

bullyrook.2165:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Because no one goes into the Crystal Desert.

The Order of Whispers does. They are from that region.

They’re from Elona, which while is across the Crystal Desert, as Mist said we don’t know how they go to and fro Elona and Tyria – we just know that they can.

Most likely, they use an asura gate. Perhaps even this one from Eye of the North. Though the canonocity of that gate beneath Istan is questionable (since all three utilize the same latter 2/3rds and other campaign-to-campaign quests (the NF to Proph/Cantha) were confirmed non-cannon by Linsey Murdock).

bullyrook.2165:

Keep in mind that the game does not scale to proper lore size. A fast paced journey from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City – in a more direct route than possible for players (that is, going through the Secluded Glen and directly into Plains of Ashford area from there, avoiding the Blazeridge Steppes altogether) – takes about 3 days of constant/near-constant travel. For players, it takes less than an hour.

Obviously, but that hasn’t impeaded the Orders’ in terms of information gathering before.

My point in this is that “just because it looks like a small distance for us players, doesn’t mean it is in lore.”

No, distance hasn’t stopped the Order of Whispers before, but no one – not even the Order of Whispers – would be able to travel as fast as players, thus for everyone, even the OoW, it is harder than you may expect to travel and gather location-based information.

bullyrook.2165:

So it isn’t like the entire continent of Tyria is the size of Germany or some such. You wouldn’t see a 1,000 foot tall structure in England from Switzerland. Same reason you wouldn’t see a 1,000 foot tall Elder Dragon somewhere within the Crystal Desert from outside of it – and you even have a small mountainrange to the north of the Crystal Desert, and access to the desert has been prohibited by foot for a few years by Queen Jennah (three guesses as to why).

I’d say the undead king on the other side might be as good a reason as any dragon.

True, but which is more recent? Which does Jennah know directly about? Why close the gate now, rather than before, if it’s closed due to Joko?

It’s more of “food for thought” than “obviously, this is the only possibility.”

bullyrook.2165:

Also, who said Kralkatorrik is “ever expanding”? Kralkatorrik’s size doesn’t change as far as we know.

I meant in terms of his territory. If he did settle anywhere, I would think that given the Dragonbrand was made in mere moments, whatever his current residence is now, it must be fairly impressive.

Zhaitan remained in Orr – which is smaller than the Crystal Desert – for 100 years before expanding seriously. The risen on the Tarnished Coast are said to be recent, as are, I believe, those in northern Sparkfly Fen (thus Bloodtide Coast too). Prior to recently, it’s mainly been pockets of risen wandering out of their territory, or the invasions on Port Noble, Port Stalwart, and Lion’s Arch (the last one failing) – though obviously since Taidha has claimed Port Noble’s ruins, they didn’t remain occupying the areas.

Similarly, Jormag’s move south is said to be recent (as well as a recent increase in the Sons of Svanir’s size), despite being awake for 150 years.

All of the Elder Dragons hold the methodology of “wake up, clear immediate area in one swoop, wait a century or so, then invade with armies to expand territory”. Kralkatorrik did the first two and then some in order to take out what he probably thought to be the greatest threat to him – Glint (considering she knows his weakenesses, that’s likely why just as much as Glint betrayed him – similar to why Zhaitan assaulted the excavation during Forging the Pact, assaulted the Orders’ HQs after taking Claw Island, and had attempted an assassination and framing of Trahearne and the PC depending on which fear choice you made; those were clearly attempts to remove the greatest threats).

Because no one goes into the Crystal Desert.

And it isn’t like they’re so huge that you can see them from over mountain ranges (unless, of course, they’re up close).

Keep in mind that the game does not scale to proper lore size. A fast paced journey from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City – in a more direct route than possible for players (that is, going through the Secluded Glen and directly into Plains of Ashford area from there, avoiding the Blazeridge Steppes altogether) – takes about 3 days of constant/near-constant travel. For players, it takes less than an hour.

So it isn’t like the entire continent of Tyria is the size of Germany or some such. You wouldn’t see a 1,000 foot tall structure in England from Switzerland. Same reason you wouldn’t see a 1,000 foot tall Elder Dragon somewhere within the Crystal Desert from outside of it – and you even have a small mountainrange to the north of the Crystal Desert, and access to the desert has been prohibited by foot for a few years by Queen Jennah (three guesses as to why).

Also, who said Kralkatorrik is “ever expanding”? Kralkatorrik’s size doesn’t change as far as we know.

They took it out because they changed the model. The original was more like the concept art we’ve seen in the trailers – much bigger, and much more of a standard european dragon.

CureForLiving.5360:

Much like panspermia it does a very bad job of explaining where anything came from, it just shifts the location.

Well it isn’t quite as interesting as “they evolved from monkeys.”

CureForLiving.5360:

And Sybitha was a wizard right?

Yes, a powerful wizard of sorts that at one point lived in the Crystal Desert.

CureForLiving.5360:

It just hit me (while I was mindlessly doing my daily), from a scientific perspective it is perfectly logical to ask if Charr and Centaurs are related if they have similar bone structures (looking at physical traits is one of the ways we define biological taxonomies). From an evolutionary standpoint separate development of common traits is possible, but usually can be traced back to a common ancestor.

There are quite a lot of similarities between centaur and charr, but its still similarities that are on par to between a human and pig, which aren’t closely related genetically.

Though interestingly enough, centaurs and charr are amongst the two that hold the heaviest likelihood of being original Tyrian (continent) inhabitants – alongside grawl. Though this only holds if you count continental Tyria going east of where we presently know. All other sentient races are either of unmentioned origins, or are refugees from elsewhere (best other candidates are ancient races – jotun, ogre, dwarf, mursaat, and seer).

Well aside from pre-Kormir’s rise human belief, that’s really the case. Though it seems that the Six Gods fit into the “unable to die of old age” concept of “immortal”. And they are gods – which the charr do not deny; the charr state that gods are beings to fight (and kill if possible, even the charr aren’t certain there) rather than worship (they still consider them gods, just not their gods).

It’s been speculated that Malyck could be a Firstborn of his tree, given the lack of knowledge of other sylvari until him, and his lack of a Dream of Dreams experience (though the latter gets debunked by Dagonet recording such experience of the sylvari – including the Firstborn).

bullyrook.2165:

So, you think Kralktorrik glassed an area roughly three times the width of the Dragonbrand for the purpose of killing 6 mortals and a lesser dragon, and then proceeded to fly south without turning the land beneath him to a new Dragonbrand? As for your data on Glint’s lair. Honestly, nothing in the GW1 map corresponds with the GW2 map perfectly. You are guessing. I personally think Glint’s Lair is a bit north of the splotch, possibly just at its edge.

Well, he did glass the area over multiple times throughout the whole battle (two or three times, I believe), and considering that it flew across the height of continental Tyria after that “lesser dragon” – yes, I would say that Kralkatorrik glassed an area roughly three times the width of the Dragonbrand for the purpose of killing it; especially when one of the “6 mortals” (Snaff) had entered its mind and was driving it mad and was infuriating Kralkatorrik.

And actually, some things do correspond perfectly. Not everything, but this is caused by the span of years and the change in scaling (or ArenaNet’s placement being a wee bit off; but this only complies for the places in the explorable area – the unexplorables line up perfectly 100% of the time, I believe). But everything is in the approximate same locations, and we know for a fact that Kralkatorrik went straight to Glint’s lair due to the novel explicitly showing this (it is where they fought, it was thus the end target of Kralkatorrik’s flight), and we also know for a fact from the novel that the Dragonbrand’s creation is not involuntary as it is a function that he effectively turned on and off, and furthermore we know for a fact that Kralkatorrik fled the battlefield without creating more of the Dragonbrand.

If you’re going to argue this, go read the book first. Of course, once you do that, you’ll realize that you’re wrong.

bullyrook.2165:

Very strong evidence, thank you for enlightening me, but that still doesn’t explain where the hey a 1000 foot dragon bent on corrupting the world would up and vanish to – without corrupting a danged thing on the way which seems to be his favorite hobby (aside from knitting and bowling, of course). With the utter lack of evidence as to where a god-like being of that caliber could possibly be aside from the aforementioned location, I am forced to assume that he is at the aforementioned location and the GW1 overlay is wrong in this case.

We’ve heard nothing about Kralkatorrik and as I said above, we know that he fled the battlefield without creating more of the Dragonbrand.

All evidence points to one thing about Kralkatorrik’s location: that he is not at that big splotch. Because wherever he went, he didn’t continue the Dragonbrand – meaning that he is past the Dragonbrand.

The only way that he’d be in the Dragonbrand would be that he returned, which we have no evidence of at all.

Envy.1679:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing says that Primordus’ “residual energy” is what powers modern gates. .

Except the guild wars 2 official wiki.

“The first asura gate network was constructed with the Central Transfer Chamber as its main hub and only source of power. The magical energy used to power the gates was radiated from what was then believed to be a dragon statue. Later, it came to light that the dragon statue was the actual dragon Primordius. When he awoke and left, destroying the Central Transfer Chamber in the process, the asura network continued to receive power, presumably from Primordius’ residual magical energy.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Asura_gate

unless im reading it wrong.

“presumably” – this is fan speculation. The fallacy of the wikis is that anyone and anything can go and edit the articles.

Always take the articles with a mindset of “there’s a chance it is wrong” – just like the WoodenPotatoes videos. Never take the wiki as a primary source, unless it is the documentation of dialogues.

Nothing says that Primordus’ “residual energy” is what powers modern gates. In fact, unlike original gates, modern gates utilize crystal arrays – though the full purpose of them is never explained, they’re at least used to tune the gate’s location and to turn it on/off. Crystals are often filled with magic in various cases.

CureForLiving was saying that the “born full-grown” could be a unique attribute to the Pale Tree, not all sylvari ever. Though plausible, given the sylvan hounds are born smaller than they end up being after a few months, that’s not the case unless Malyck went from young to adult in a very short timespan (I suppose the Toxic Hybrid did, as he grows within a minute or so).

CureForLiving.5360:

Tuomir.1830:

Well, largely because the gods have stopped meddling in the matters of Tyria.

Or because they’re not as powerful as the term god would indicate. For gods they’re rather mortal. Abaddon died and I’d imagine that Balthazar’s father was also a god (who was beheaded). Dhuum and Abaddon were both imprisoned for a very very long time (why does god need a spaceshi— I mean, why does god have such a hard time getting out of jail).

Balthazar’s father could easily have been mortal, since divinity is not passed down by genetics (though some power does seem passed down since Grenth had titles such as “Prince of Ice and Sorrow” before overcoming Dhuum).

But you’re falling into the gap that is caused by monotheism being so commonplace nowadays. In traditional poltheism, gods are not these omnipotent, omniscient beings that cannot be covercome. They’re unaging, world-making, race-making, afterlife-governing beings.

Why does Abaddon and Dhuum have such a hard time getting out of jail? Because they’re in a jail tailored specifically to them. No different than the prisons the Titans were put in with Greek Mythos – Titans in Greek Mythos were gods too.

I don’t think Zhaitan’s corpse was consumed. Reasons being:

1. The karka have been there for quite some time. How well entrenched they are in Southsun shows this. However, the Risen’s presence in the Sea of Sorrows has prevented exploration thus leaving the island fairly unknown. Plus with how deep the karka were, it’d be weird if they’re only just now being forced out.
2. In an interview with GuildMag, it was hinted that Zhaitan’s corpse is still there.

We don’t have any confirmed DSD concept art, CMstorm. All we have that are close enough to count for the DSD are 2007 never-used concept art.

Malyck didn’t wake up with memory loss. The memory loss was a (false) assumption on the player character’s part due to Malyck not know what the Grove, Pale Tree, or Dream of Dreams were. Malyck shows with perfect memory all that happened once he left his pod if you go with Caithe’s option in that storyline.

He wasn’t a baby, btw, as he was only 2 weeks old by the time players met him. Barely older (if at all older) than the PC her/himself.

Arguably, we know how humans came about – in regards to Tyria (brought to Tyria from another world); and we don’t know that wind riders “came from magic” – we just know that Sybitha unleashed them, specifically those in the Crystal Desert (those elsewhere may be of different origin).

But to ask if all mobile plants are related in some way is no different than asking if centaurs and charr are related in some way because they have similar bone structures (which in turn is like asking if humans and pigs are related because both have similar bone density or whatever the similarity is that makes pigs a good test for effectiveness on humans).

Horst Hortensie.5420:

If the ley lines follow the path of least resistance, then the question is where do they flow to? If they flow towards the lowest concentration, then why ley lines at all or where is this place without magic? If they have a natural habit to concentrate, then again why ley lines and not a single giant magic blob (aside from no magic at other places after a certain time)? Instead, we have a floating system with intersections like a giant network.

Ley lines don’t puddle up because it’s a continuous movement. Like wind currents, which ley lines are compared to. The ley lines circle the globe, continuously moving. If you were to mark one point in the moving magic and watch it get carried off by the ley lines while standing still, it will sooner or later return to you (we don’t know how fast magics in ley lines move, nor whether that hypothetical “single point” would change be capable of changing directions at intersections).

Magic moves, and it is this notion that causes the creation of ley lines. If it didn’t move, then it would just “puddle up” around the Elder Dragons. The natural movement of magic is what creates the ley lines.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

It’s hard to define natural if we don’t know what the initial state of Tyria is, but the magical ley lines have too much magic inside while beside and outside of them nearly no magic is flowing, except they are blown up.

How can you know that ley lines have “too much magic inside them” while outside has “nearly no magic”? Where do you draw this conclusion?

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Putting all arguments together with some entities that shape Tyria takes me to the conclusion that the ley lines are either not natural or dragons usually consume them and somebody is very interested to stop them from doing so.

I’m not seeing where you get this, and nothing indicates that “some entities shape Tyria” – the only case of shaping the world we have good enough evidence for is Elder Dragons’ geological changes, and the Six Gods terraforming. But ley lines would have existed before both (theoretically and by all current indication). I’m still not seeing how you’re reaching your conclusions. To me, your argument is sounding like:

“Because A and B, but not C, it must be H” whereas a logical theory should be “Because A and B, but not C, therefore D.” I feel there’s missing steps in your train of thought that you aren’t sharing.

zwierz.9012:

-snip “magic ocean and ley lines being currents” theory-

In Edge of the Mists, Taimi and Braham compare ley lines to wind currents. And I think in a live stream, Angel McCoy compared to ocean currents.

Syndrilious.9632:

Thanks to the Thaumanova Fractal we already know that there is a closer intersection. Scarlet says something to the effect of “at least we know not to build on top of a major intersection next time” during one of her little talks.

[…]

Thaumanova, was in fact built to harness Dragonic Energy, aka Ley Lines: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thaumanova_Reactor_Fractal read Scarlets dialogue.

I believe Scarlet did a lot more footwork than we give her credit for. That statement equates Dragonic Energy and Chaos Energy, meaning that if we accept Dragon Energy as the source of the majority of the magic in Ley Lines, Thaumanova was explicitly built for the purpose of using it, only under an assumed name.

Erm… Wrong.

Thaumanova Reactor was built to study chaos magic. The Inquest mistook some dragon energy for chaos magic, however. Ley lines are not dragon energy. Source

“Just the basics: the facility was intended to study chaos magic, but the Inquest and their so-called “specialist,” Scarlet, pushed things in dangerous new directions."
→How so?
“They claimed there was a link between the Thaumanova’s chaos energy and Elder Dragon energy. They ramped things up past the point of safe operation, and the reactor melted down.”
→Anything else?
“Scarlet claimed to have identifies the channels that this magical energy follows as it courses in and around and through the globe. If she’s right, it could be a significant breakthrough.”

It pays to read all the dialogue.

All Scarlet said is that the Inquest labelled what was really dragon energy as “chaos magic”. Kiel’s findings explain that Thaumanova was built to study chaos magic, but the Inquest found similarities between chaos magic and dragon energy, and experimented on both. And through this experimentation, Scarlet identified the ley line network.

It’s a common misunderstanding, but a misunderstanding all the same.

Ley lines are simply the channels that magic moves, it is not full of dragon energy – which by definition, is the magic that corrupts and creates dragon minions.

CMstorm.8679:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luecm1Ixee1qmpg7qo1_500.jpg

Unless i’m wrong (which I don’t think I am) this is just another depiction of Kralkatorrik.

That’s just a generic Elder Dragon concept by Daniel Dociu. It would be Zhaitan if any ED, btw, as Zhaitan is the only one around naval ships like that (those are old Krytan design). Kralkatorrik isn’t anywhere close to water (or rather, enough water).

CMstorm.8679:

Well, I don’t think I’ve said it yet, but I don’t think the deep sea dragon really poses any threat to Tyria so far. He only scared off the Karka, who now are just kinda doing their now thing on that island in the Sea of Sorrows.

and also, size doesn’t always equal strength But with all the information there is about the Elder Dragons, we can use that to determine how strong or capable they are of causing destruction

The deep sea dragon may not be a current threat, but that doesn’t make it weak. He’s just distance.

Also, karka and krait were pushed out. Largos seem to be having troubles with it as well, and the southern quaggan were pushed out by the krait fleeing from the DSD. And besides, “only” scared off the karka? The karka are basically the dominate predators of the deep sea by what the quaggan and largos say – they consider karka a stronger enemy than krait (LA quaggan fled at first sight of karka, even into krait-infested waters just to flee the karka; while the largos we met, Fahd or some such, was saying the karka shell was (one of?) his best trophy).

The DSD has been around the krait obelisks – multiple but unknown amounts of them – which each are like individual Bloodstones: stuffed full of magic. By pushing out the krait (the DSD’s first move), he basically gave himself an underwater Orr to consume at his pleasure (perhaps even more magic than Orr, honestly).

Sergoros.4398:

They didnt. It wasnt even a fight, though, Glint was fighting Kralk 1v1. Snaff was trying to make some use of his mind control machine. Rytlock was holding a long stick, that was supposedly strong enough to pierce kralkatorik heart or smth. His weak spot. He didnt do ANYTHING whole fight. Just was standing and w8-ing.

Caithe was holding back hordes of branded. I dont remember what eir or zoija did…guess they was holding branded back too. So yeah. Finally Snaff mind control started to work and he managed to get grip of kralk and force him to the ground, where Rytlock could finish him. Glint was finished already btw. Aaaaand…when Rytlock almost pierced kralk….dragon was freed from snaff device (because some branded managed to pass and K.O.-ed snaff. So dragon was all like ~GTFO!~ on rytlock and then just flew away somewhere. He killed his traitor champ and had no interest in some ants on the ground.

Rytlock wasn’t doing “nothing but waiting” – all of DE sans Snaff and Logan were defending three entrypoints to where Snaff was kept. Eir+Garm on one side, Zojja in her golem suit on another, and Caithe+Rytlock in the third. When Kralkatorrik fell from Snaff’s mind wrestling, Rytlock left to kill it – but Caithe alone wasn’t enough to hold the Branded off. This is the entire point behind Glint’s earlier line of “if you all stand together, you can win” – if Logan didn’t go to save Jennah, then he would have aided Caithe in defending Snaff after Rytlock left to slay the dragon, keeping Snaff alive (longer) and giving Rytlock the time to bash the dragon.

Kralkatorrik did have interest on the “ants on the ground” – but only due to Snaff getting into his mind.

bullyrook.2165:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

bullyrook.2165:

Yeah, nothing definitive on his location… Oh, except for the massive splotch of Branded in the Crystal Desert map. I think he is holed up there, licking his wounds, and considering the weight of the situation.

That “massive splotch” is where he fled from at the end of Edge of Destiny. He didn’t continue making the Dragonbrand. It ends at Glint’s Lair.

And Kralkatorrik is not there.

Unless he returned after Destiny’s Edge left (and, I should note, the Zephyrites came and gone, given that they went to Glint’s corpse which would be right next to that “massive splotch of Brand” and thus Kralkatorrik would have been in eyesight yet no mention of the massive beast, rather a “hurry so the wrong hands don’t get it.”)

And you know this how? If you got this very exact info from a book, I should remind you that the books aren’t exactly spot on in terms of detail.

It’s pretty obvious from the map that the Dragonbrand ends at Glint’s Lair by overlaying it with the GW1 map. In Edge of Destiny, Glint’s Lair is where they confront Kralkatorrik – this is pointblank stated. Kralkatorrik flees and Destiny’s Edge has some time of moment’s rest after the battle at the place of the battle, as shown by Zojja crying over Snaff’s corpse within the battered and broken golem suit.

If you read the novel, it becomes pretty clear. The books may not be perfect in their detail, but they are a lot more than you give credit for.

Zaxares.5419:

Kralk must still be somewhere in the Crystal Desert though. The Movement of the World mentioned that Palawa Joko’s undead armies are busy fighting off the Branded, so it stands to reason that Kralk must be somewhere nearby, since all the Branded we encounter were heading south in response to his call.

Wrong. The Movement of the World mentions risen (specifically called the Orrian dragon’s minions) fighting on the northern Elonian border.

There is not a single mention of Kralkatorrik’s minions being in conflict in the desert or with Joko’s undead.

Also, the Branded are moving south by southeast. But as we see in Edge of Destiny, at least upon the Brand’s creation they head south because that’s the last they saw Kralkatorrik heading. Think of it like the Walking Dead zombies when a herd shows up at the end of Season 2 – they see a helicopter and start following it, but they loose sight of the helicopter, however they continue moving in the direction they last saw/heard the helicopter going.

bullyrook.2165:

Yeah, nothing definitive on his location… Oh, except for the massive splotch of Branded in the Crystal Desert map. I think he is holed up there, licking his wounds, and considering the weight of the situation.

That “massive splotch” is where he fled from at the end of Edge of Destiny. He didn’t continue making the Dragonbrand. It ends at Glint’s Lair.

And Kralkatorrik is not there.

Unless he returned after Destiny’s Edge left (and, I should note, the Zephyrites came and gone, given that they went to Glint’s corpse which would be right next to that “massive splotch of Brand” and thus Kralkatorrik would have been in eyesight yet no mention of the massive beast, rather a “hurry so the wrong hands don’t get it.”)

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Why does everybody think these ley-lines are natural? If we put the dragons together with ley-lines then it’s expectable that dragons have the initial task to consume magical concentrations and release them slowly back into nature. We have a high concentration and the dragons woke, but after they have been fed with magic. Conclusion: The ley-lines concentrate magic to keep it away from the dragons and the intersections are part of a magic flow network created by somebody (maybe more than one).

Depends on how you define ‘natural’. The ley lines are in effect the paths of magical movement in the world.

I’m not quite sure how you got to your conclusion, however.

CMstorm.8679:

With all the Elder Dragons gathering magic during their sleep, are they aware of each others’ presences in the world? Can they sense where the magic is flowing and how much of it goes?

Are they even aware while they sleep? Keep in mind that it is their champions that gather magic (at least in Jormag’s case), and while everything the minions know, the Elder Dragons know, the champions still have enough freedom in their actions to chose how to go about doing things.

CMstorm.8679:

When a dragon wakes after consuming magic, it pretty much releases all that magic back into the world then returns to its sleep right?
There’s bound to be a time when the remaining Elder Dragons will awaken after consuming all the magic there is in the world and arise at the same time. Then Tyria will pretty much be reduced to almost nothing (if I’m understanding that correctly)

The Elder Dragons release magic into the world while sleeping. While awake, the only magic they release is that which corrupts: draconic energy – otherwise they’re consuming it.

CMstorm.8679:

Are they also aware of when the flow of magic is interrupted?

Given the season 1 finale, this is likely but unconfirmed.

Tuomir.1830:

We know that when there is no more magic for the dragons to devour present, they fall into slumber. We also can assume that them waking up is a result from high levels of magic in the world. What hasn’t been examined is how they notice the difference in the amount of magic.

The easy answer would be that they just sense it, because magic. However, we’ve recently seen Mordremoth waking up as a direct result of a surge of magic through the ley line straight into it’s mouth. Also, the magic the dragons exude while sleeping seems to radiate out of their bodies, instead of flowing along the lines. So, from these points, I draw that the dragons are not the source of the ley lines, and that they slumber in places where the magic naturally flows through in order to wake up when the meal is ready.

The more likely answer is “they don’t, their champions do.” Primordus had the Great Destroyer; Jormag had Drakkar; Kralkatorrik had Glint. Three of the four more active Elder Dragons in Tyria had champions, which were awake for quite some time before they woke up. Though trapped in ice, Drakkar was awake at least 100 years prior to Jormag’s awakening if not longer; the Eye of the North manual hints that destroyers were a threat for a very long time, just as pocketed monsters (like how we see them on the surface now), hinting at the Great Destroyer being awake but biding time (then again, the Tome of Rubicon hints that it was put into hibernation unwillingly too); if not for Glint’s freedom, she may have been awake the entire time too.

Regarding “Also, the magic the dragons exude while sleeping seems to radiate out of their bodies, instead of flowing along the lines.” – but the magic would sooner or later find the lines, because they lines are not physical – they are simply the paths of least resistance.

And I wouldn’t put much stock into the magic flowing into Mordremoth’s mouth. Keep in mind that the ley line was disrupted, meaning what happens there is not common. It’s a unique, artificially created event, and we have no empirical data to say what is normally the case.

Tuomir.1830:

But the ley lines aren’t fault lines, they are lines of energy. If it’s a reactor, it’s supposed to transform energy to a more usable form, and as far as I know, we don’t know what was the source for the energy. So, if the reactor was built to utilize the magic of the ley lines, then of course it makes perfect sense for the version 2 to be built on them, as well.

Let me try rephrasing then.

If Energy A is not compatible with Energy B, and it is known that if they mix they explode, you would not combine them except as a weapon. This is the fundamental nature of the atomic bomb – it was too hazardous to use as an energy source, so it was turned into a bomb.

Thaumanova was exactly this – mixing two incompatible energy types, resulting in hazardous explosions.

Unless you’re willing to risk your own life – and Kudu’s personality hints that this is not so – then you won’t do something that risks your own life.

Thaumanova was not built to utilize ley lines. And Infinite Coil Reactor is not either – the former was built to utilize chaos magic; the latter was used to utilize dragon energy.

Tuomir.1830:

But in that case, the magic always would flow from the dragons to the lay lines, and if the dragons feed on the lay lines, that wouldn’t make much sense, would it? My theory is that the ley lines are inherent to the world of Tyria, natural pathways of massed magic, not affected directly by the dragons. Of course, massive geographical changes would alter them, so in that way they are affected, but my point is that the lines do not originate from the dragons. They are just very convenient for them.

Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying. Elder Dragons not only consume, but exude magic. When they’re awake, they’re consuming until there is no magic in the world. So the magic that fills the ley lines must come from somewhere – it comes from the Elder Dragons. This is rather mandatory (even if it doesn’t come solely from the Elder Dragons, magic does come from them) – whether it is immediate or not is the question.

I would also like to counter-argument your “ley lines are geographical” theory. Magic is known for being capable of going through solid mass, and can function much like radiation (see CoE story mode and Thaumanova). If it can go through solid mass, then it is only natural that it is not determined – at least not fully – by the geographical features of the world.

Tuomir.1830:

Exactly, we only know that it’s ancient, and we don’t know just how ancient it is. Therefore, I don’t exactly see the logic in your assumption that it must have been built during a low-magic era. It could have been during any of the earlier dragon risings for all we know. And even if it was built during a low-magic era, if the ley lines were the same, as stands in my theory, wouldn’t it be logical to build an important magical tower in a place where as much magic passes as possible?

Because it isn’t part of modern history. As has been established, Elder Dragons consume magikittenil there’s none left in the world. It is known that there are periods of low or no magic in the world. These periods exist from shortly before the Elder Dragons fall asleep, to quite some time after (they consume faster than they exude, it would seem, as it takes roughly 10,000 years between risings according to the Durmand Priory).

If it is not part of modern history, then it is highly likely to be either from the previous “low-magic era” or predating that before a no-magic era (when the Elder Dragons went to sleep). Given the above statement that magic by all accounts is implied to be capable of going through solid mass (or certain types), and the risings changing the geographical features of the world, then it is only logical to believe a good chance of the ley lines in modern Tyria being different from the ley lines prior and during the previous ED rise.

Does this make sense?

Last records we have is Edge of Destiny on his exact location. The Movement does hint that he’s still in the Crystal Desert, though, via calling him the desert dragon (as Mordremoth was the jungle dragon, and Zhaitan the Orrian dragon), but nothing really definitive.

For the Whispers’ capability of moving to Elona, I’m guessing they use an asura gate.

CMstorm.8679:

About Kralkatorrik, how long has it been since it fled to the Crystal Desert?

Roughly 7 years. He woke in 1320 AE and fled to the desert the day he woke up. It is now 1327 AE, though still early in the year.