Guild Wars 2

Inquest knew about Mordremoth. Scarlet was part of the Inquest. Scarlet also partook in some dragon energy experiments (Thaumanova). Ergo, Scarlet knew of Mordremoth via the Inquest.

Why is this not a simpler deduction than “Mordremoth was always in Scarlet’s mind!” exactly?

The Movement of the World isn’t so great a resource anymore since, like History of Tyria (which was basically the same thing but for the very first GW game, Prophecies), it has been altered a bit since its making and release – mainly in terms of dates or specific terms, but a couple other things too.

Some easy to spot reworks since 2007 are the dates for Ventari’s death and sylvari birth being far closer in the Movement (saying sylvari were around for over a century, iirc); Jormag and Zhaitan (neither never named) having their order of rising switched (originally the order was Primordus → Zhaitan → Jormag but has since become Primordus → Jormag → Zhaitan); and the Krytan Ministry having been called “senators” originally; and of course, the DSD’s sphere of influence is far smaller than implied in the Movement.

In general it’s still reliable. And the explanation for its invalidity in some places is that it’s an in-universe document that got peer edited by other Priory scholars and not just the original writer, so there are actually multiple versions of the MOvement in-universe (some of which don’t even mention the DSD).

ArenaNet was saying that in relation to saying that sylvari need to eat and drink to gain energy – that they cannot thrive solely off of photosynthesis.

Whether they breath oxygen or CO2 is up in the air (no pun intended).

Additional food for thought:

“Early pre-imperial era? What? That can’t…oh, I’m sorry. Did you need something?”
What are you working on?
“Same as everyone else: the dragons, of course. It’s of critical importance that we find their weaknesses or some clue to what’s happening.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Historian_Angelina

Interesting that she would make mention of the Canthan calendar dating system when researching Elder Dragons, isn’kitten

If I look at the simple facts, it’s that we know abokittenely nothing about the entity, and that most likely it was the hidden psychopathic subconscious of Ceara’s own mind.

The “simple facts” do not lead to Mordremoth. They lead to schizophrenia. IMO at least.

I recall there being at least 2, possibly up to 4 if not more, Pact Commanders in-game.

There’s one in the Pact fort in Frostgorge (near the entrance to FIreheart – it’s a charr). There’s one in Citadel of Flame explorable (another charr). There’s a “Commander” figure in southern Timberline Falls in a Vigil/Priory camp, though Commander isn’t a rank in either order. And IIRC, there’s a Commander that’s present in Cursed Shore’s Gates of Arah meta.

Ironically, the first three are all Charr and wearing Vigil armor.

That’s just one warden’s belief – mentioned near the cultural armor vendors in the Grove. It’s even outright stated to be her own belief.

Tamias.7059:

You touched on something here that I neglected to mention in my first post, namely that both the dwarves and the sylvari are resistant to dragon corruption. Sure, Primordus seems to prefer to construct minions rather than corrupt living creatures, but even still you’d expect to see a few Destroyer dwarves wandering out onto the surface every now and then, given that as far as we know, the dwarves are what’s stopping Primordus’ minions from swarming the surface. And yet we don’t.

I wouldn’t take the lack of destroyer dwarves with too much worth just yet. I mean, how many destroyers do we see? And of them, how many varieties? Not very many.

Tamias.7059:

The only other thing I can think of off the top my head actually is the Foefire ghosts (they don’t seem too bothered by the Dragonbrand)

Each Elder Dragon seems to corrupt – when doing so directly – differently. And Kralkatorrik’s cup o’ tea seems to be “physical.” He doesn’t corrupt water either, but rather corrupted through the water.

Tamias.7059:

Proving the connection between the Great Dwarf and the Dream of Dreams is a little more tough, I’ll grant you, but I’m confident that the Great Dwarf and the Great Destroyer (the group mind, not the actual monster itself) are very closely linked. From the very first mention of the Great Destroyer (and bear in mind that this was years before anyone had come up with the Eye of the North and Guild Wars 2 stories, so ANet probably had a very different idea of what the Great Dwarf was), you really get the sense that the Great Destroyer was kind of equal and opposite to the Great Dwarf. Even from the names alone, you feel like they’re being presented as rivals, who have similarities.

However, take into consideration that this is dwarven myth from the Tome of Rubicon, and we have very specific mention that the Tome of Rubicon is NOT a valid source of information.

That we know of. This was a very long time ago. I’m afraid none of them are coming forward with helpful information. We have the dwarven Tome of Rubicon, but it has been changed over the years.

draxynnic.3719:

Kralkatorrik is probably easy to check off – Glint, her offspring, and quite likely the crystal constructs she used as guards as well. That leaves Jormag and the DSD.

Well, there’s the Dragon’s Eye that is somehow connected to the Elder Dragons, belonging to the dwarves. Personally, made me think of the Heart of Ice used to make ice elementals.

Miroe.2054:

May be connected with the disappearance of the gods.

We already know why the Six Gods ceased communication. It has nothing to do with the Elder Dragons.

Q: Are the Six [gods] really gone or not? Their power is still very much present. Players can call upon the gods’ power with prayers, NPC priests can summon Reapers of Grenth etc., and their statues are still stuffed with energy. So if they left, why are their power still here?

Jeff Grubb: The human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria. However, they have pulled back into the mists, leaving the humans to stand (or fall) on their own merits. There has been a tendency for the human gods to, um, meddle with their worshippers a bit much, and in the wake of the final battle of Abaddon, they have been trying to cut back. Also, the destruction of the big A and his replacement with Kormir in the Pantheon resolved one of their ties with physical contact with Tyria. So there are ties, but you just can’t ring them up to take on the Elder Dragons.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dolyak-Express-Jan-10-2014/page/3#post3545340

The rest of your post, Miroe, is… interesting. But holds zero basis or support, really.

draxynnic.3719:

Konig makes a valid point, however – the Dream certainly does seem to be a metaphysical construct that’s seperate to the sylvari, although the Pale Tree and sylvari have strong links to the Dream. Mordremoth does seem to be able to touch the Dream, but I suspect this is because the Dream is a form of magic that Mordremoth likes the taste of (the dragons do seem to have their preferences), not that the Dream is a conversion of the magic that forms the dragon minion hive mind.

I actually look to the White Stag for the explanation behind the “Mordremoth is the source of the Nightmare” theory – the White Stag is mentioned to be a being of magic, as is the Pale Tree. So I think the requirements for accessing the Dream is 1) location and 2) amount of magic within oneself. This would allow an Elder Dragon located within the Maguuma Jungle to access the Dream. This could also be used to explain why some but not all of the Risen in A Light in the Darkness are hostile – the ones that are hostile are more magical (those Orrian weapon sentries for example).

This would also explain the notion of Caithe and Faolain encountering the Nightmare in Orr – Nightmare of a different origin (Zhaitan).

CureForLiving.5360:

A shared consciousness is interesting, but it might be more of a coincidence, remember even Skritt have a (kinda) hive-mind, and I don’t see them playing an important role in the war against the EDs. Also the shared conciousness amongst ED minions doesn’t seem universal. In the case of Zhaitan, although they worked towards a common goal and were influenced by Zhaitan’s will, we do see several individuals acting fairly independently in achieving those goals.

The skritt is less hive mind and more hypercommunication (like the Geth of Mass Effect). They don’t share thoughts – they just communicate very fast.

As to Zhaitan’s minions – that’s actually the prime example other than the Great Destroyer for hive minds amongst dragon minions! The thing is that the more magic was sent back to the minion by Zhaitan in corrupting, the stronger and more intelligent it is – being more intelligent, they are capable of making decisions and acting independently while also leading the more mindless minions.

Jormag, Primordus, and Zhaitan are all specifically explained in having this function amongst their minions. The less magic a minion gets, the weaker it is and the more mindless it is (and in risen cases, the corpses are soulless like Romke’s crew). On the flip side, however, the more magic a minion gets the stronger it becomes and the more intelligent it is (and in risen cases, the soul becomes trapped within the minion like with the Keeper of Grenth’s Temple and King Reza). There seems to be varying degrees to this but generally minions are classified into three groups – standard, lieutenants, and champions (being the highest and even capable of acting of their own accord to varying degrees).

We’ve yet to see a sylvari ghost, however. We don’t even know if sylvari have souls to become ghosts.

@mexay: The bloodstone’s magic was all the non-corrupted magic in the world during the last rise; ley lines are just channels for magic to move through. So they are connected – but it should be noted that “ley lines” are NOT magic. It’s the movement of magic. Same way you’d say waves and currents in the ocean’s surface isn’t water but the movement of water, or that wind current isn’t actually wind but the movement of wind.

As to Foefire’s Heart – I had considered that but two things:
1) It’s ghostly, and most ghosts are a light blue. I point this more to souls being magical energy (my theory, based on demons consuming souls as food, and Oola’s hologram’s line in Metrica about how “we all embody magic”).
2) It’s not a pillar of light, per se, but a flaming sword.
3) We see the bottom of it in the Ascalonian Catacombs dungeon, and it doesn’t breach down beneath said catacombs.

There’d also be nothing to contain it if it were like Thaumanova.

@Angry Dutch: Doesn’t look New Krytan to me.

The idea was more that plants take in CO2 and give out breathable air – the reverse of animals. So theoretically (we don’t know if sylvari function this way!), a human and a sylvari could breath into each other without issue.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Knock off our rebreather and we be struggling to find a source of air.

Find your nearest sylvari and kiss for a long time. Problem solved. :P

If you did then it was a long time ago – it’s not in my mailbox. And people’s opinions can change when introduced with new lore. And I can be wrong at times (gasp!).

@Tamias: Interesting note to make. I don’t think we’d find anything in the Vizier’s Tower, though.

@ mexay: We don’t even know if Abaddon knew of the ley lines, so no. The origins of the scroll is unknown just that it “predates when the gods made the Bloodstone” (which has been proven false – that the gods made the Bloodstone that is, but this means “before magic was resealed in Year 0” with a strong likelihood of “after Abaddon gifted magic in 1 BE” – but it could be older, tbh, given how much other stuff is wrong in the same origin of the line – the History of Tyria document from Prophecies).

What Abaddon did to Khilbron was that he converted Khilbron via Terrick aka Razakiel. Though there’s hints that Khilbron knew what he was doing, Terrick claims he tricked Khilbron into sinking Orr and the Orrian History Scrolls claim Khilbron was honest in his attempt to save Orr. It’s hard to choose who to believe.

We don’t really have a way to point there being a large ley line or criss-cross of them near all dragons. There was one at Lion’s Arch, and no dragon there so it certainly isn’t a requirement. But since Elder Dragons exude magic when they hibernate and ley lines are the paths of least resistence of magic’s movement across the globe, it wouldn’t be surprising if magic in ley lines tend to originate from Elder Dragons.

Interesting notion about human settlements on ley lines. I doubt LA being over one is purely coincidence since the drill was more or less right atop of Old Lion’s Arch’s main square (where the fountain was, the drill went right next to it iirc). But we don’t really have a good method of checking where ley lines are – especially in GW1.

And we already know that the Six Gods were drawn to the magic of the Artesian Waters and not Zhaitan. This is explained to non-charr if you talk to Trahearne at the end of the Cathedral of Silence story step.

draxynnic.3719:

That said, Kellach being willing to cure himself by killing the queen that he took that risk in order to protect is a strange switcharoo even for insanity. Now, some people might genuinely think that taking such a risk on someone’s behalf without the intended benefactor desiring it entitles them to be rescued from the consequences of their actions even at the cost of the intended benefactor, but even insanity could have led to Kellach deciding that he was going to make sure his action benefited the queen at whatever cost – such as, say, leading the Risen into Beetletun to remove Jennah’s main political opponent. I have a suspicion that even though he wasn’t flipped all the way over, the dragon’ influence still had a strong hold on his mind, pushing him to do things he wouldn’t ordinarily contemplate because it was in the dragon’s interest, even though he thought he was doing it for his own reasons.

That’s more or less been my recent thoughts on Kellach.

He was trying to “cure” himself, but he was willing to go about sacrificing the reason he risked himself in the first place. It really seems like he had a lot of free will – easily on par to the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan or Mazdak or Necromancer Rissa in this regard. We see the Sovereign Eye putting the Artesian Waters at risk by letting Trahearne and the PC pass powerful risen, and Kellach “searching for a non-existent cure” can easily be put on par. We know that the Elder Dragons don’t really care much about their minions, so if he had some self-choice-making then it’s easily possible he was corrupted but allowed the false desire of trying to free himself from that, as it left him on a rampage throughout Kryta.

I don’t really think there’s a proper comparison.

The Movement of the World calls Zhaitan (then dubbed the Orrian Dragon) to be the strongest of them. But given that they become stronger by consuming magic, it’s hard to say really.

• Zhaitan had a buffet made for him by the Six Gods who brought so many magical artifacts to Orr, and there was the whole nation ready to be made for him. I think Zhaitan acted prematurely because he had so much given to him so easily, I think it underestimated everything – it was also the closest dragon thus there was a more immenent threat from it than to the other Elder Dragons.
• Primordus has six asuran cities the size of Rata Sum to consume, not to mention any labs they left. He’s also bound to be closer to the ley lines. And he’s been consuming magic for twice as long as Zhaitan.
• Jormag has been collecting kodan magical artifacts, perhaps norn and quaggan ones too, but otherwise is unknown for having magical sources. Unlike Primordus though, it is actively pushing south and had consumed a Spirit of the Wild (that’s got to be a big meal).
• Kralkatorrik just woke up and went right to the Crystal Desert. Almost died. It’s recalling its forces south (intentionally or not is unknown), but though the Crystal Desert is magical it’s full of Forgotten magic – which cannot be corrupted by the Elder Dragon for unknown reasons.
• Mordremoth just woke up too, and unlike what you said Sundar, we have no indicationt hat Mordremoth (or its champion) is the entity, so we can’t say it scared Scarlet. However, thanks to Scarlet it’s being given a LOT of magic via the ley line, and the Maguuma Jungle holds not only a Bloodstone, but other ancient magics.

My opinion of who’s going to be the toughest dragon to kill? The deep sea dragon. Why?

1. It forced out the karka, largos, and krait. They are among the top dog races hands down. And it did so to the krait when it just woke up. No other dragon managed such – even Jormag took over 4 years before affecting the norn after waking up, and Kralkatorrik may have caused the Dragonbrand, but he didn’t really do the charr much damage.
2. It has near instant access to the krait obelisks. They’re compared to the Bloodstones which contain a lot of magic.
3. It has had nothing to confront it – unlike the other dragons, after it displaced the krait, largos, karka, and by extension the quaggans 50 years ago, the DSD has seemingly been without conflict.

I would rate Jormag as second-strongest since it shattered the largest mountains (Shiverpeaks) when waking up, and topped iceburg sanctuaries and then pushed the norn south after a 4 year long blizzard and devoured a Spirit of the Wild.

Though Mordremoth may be high up too. Not really sure about him.

So with the recent knowledge of ley lines’ existence out there, there’s been a few people thinking that Orr is over another criss-cross of ley lines. At first I though “no, not necessarily” but I think I’ve found something to further that idea.

I realized this when going through Thaumanova again, and remembering the season 1 finale cinematic which shows the blue pillar of light in Thaumanova light up I thought I’d investigate it (see if anything changed – didn’t notice such). I went to the control panel that you go to with the matrix key for the champion steam ogre, and the thought popped in my head. The panel says this:

Master Control Console LIN39: Safety fields operational. Mass destruction contained.

So the forcefield there, which is lowered to fight the steam ogre, prevents mass destruction. This kind of explains why if you remain up there after the ogre’s death there’s an explosion and subsequent death.

But I was instantly reminded of something else: the Cataclysm. While the original lore of it explained it as an explosion and a pillar of light – this description coming from people seeing it (or second-hand info) from a distance, it led people to think it was an explosion like a bomb or the like. In GW2, we learn otherwise in Arah story mode

There was indeed light – light blue light at that – but no explosion, rather it all sunk directly (this explains why so much is intact, yet so much isn’t – it didn’t sink together). But what’s the most interesting to me is that the shade of blue is the same. And both Thaumanova and the Cataclysm hold a pillar of light – and Thaumanova could result in mass destruction, the Cataclysm did.

So this leads me to believe that the Cataclysm was tapping into the ley lines, similar to the Inquest experiments (which wasn’t a direct tapping but rather mass magic being messed with close to the ley lines).

This also gives some possible insight into the nature of the Cataclysm.

Others’ thoughts?

sigh wrote up a response, forums log me off for some reason, lost the write up. :/

Anyways, let’s see if I can repeat it all…

In GW1, Aatxes were considered Nightmares (and in GW2, Aatxes, Shades, and the Shadow Behemoth are counted the same kind of race), which while the lore on them was scarce and well hidden, in Xandra’s quest Hunted, Xandra calls nightmares named after negative emotions (similar to ritualist bound spirits) spirits themselves, and the Vaettir (nightmares in the Far Shiverpeaks) often were at graveyards and abandoned homesteads. Aatxes were native to the Underworld, the Realm of the Dead, on top of this.

In GW2, this seems to carry over. Aatxes, Shades, and the Shadowbehemoth come from the Underworld in the wilderness, and in Iron Marches, Bria’s Shadow Fiends inhabit the bodies of local charr after their souls were displaced, furthering this theme.

So Shades – and by extension, Chaos Beasts, especially in the skritt’s case – appear to be generic hostile spirits. Necromancers summoning them is an extension of them delving into the spiritual (see their spectral skills), almost making them a mixture of necromancers and ritualists (though still heavily leaning on the necromancer side – which in fact resembles their original lore for Tyrian and Elonian necromancers far more than the GW1 necromancer mechanics did).

I’ve become convinced that CHIPS is using Russia during WWII as his basis for how wars should be fought – a war of attrition using footsoldiers to twiddle down the enemy.

Which is not how wars should be fought.

ArenaNet has never been mean with their April’s Fool’s jokes. There are people who do kitten things for April’s Fool’s, but ANet are not amongst them. I have seen developers, such as John Stumme who said that they hate the mean jokes and go the extra mile to be funny for all, not just the joker.

I am not worried.

Don’t be silly. All the Elder Dragons will converge to a single place, including the Legs of Zhaitan (which are his lower half that weren’t seen in-game yet, includes his front chest, second huge arm, and jaw), and then you get them all shouting:

Primordus: Fire!
Jormag: Ice!
Bubbles: Water!
Kralkorrik: Crystal!
Mordrrmoth: Plant!
Zhaitan: Undeath!

Together: Together we form together to make….

Captain Dragon!

!http://www.kekaiart.com/uploads/5/4/7/6/5476798/8048923_orig.jpg!

I bought the Bloody Prince outfit for my female necro, but I HATE the facepaint. It kills the outfit for me. With the all or nothing, I’ll have to have the facepaint on her. I don’t want that.

I want a refund if I cannot have a no headgear option because that is not what I paid for. For all future costumes, sure, but for the already bought ones? It feels like a full out rip-off to me.

And I’m not being rude or rough to work with or whathaveyou. It seriously isn’t what I paid for, and as such it is actually a fraud. This is a case of advertising one thing, selling it, then changing the product while it was used by the consumers – the consumers now paid for something they weren’t buying. And even if it’s just 10 bucks, I’d like that 700 gems back – go ahead and take the item off my account, I don’t want it anymore if I cannot get rid of that facepaint.

And now I’m VERY glad I never bought more than the one.

azizul.8469:

and give us Palawa Joko and his Undead Army to fight……

make him The Villain in the new LS arc……….

“Enough with the undead” I hear this coming up when we go to Joko if it’s so soon after Zhaitan.

Though your stance is opposite of what many people called for as of months ago. “Enough with Scarlet, bring us Elder Dragons again! GW2 is about dragons!”

Can’t satisfy everyone.

Astral Projections.7320:

Rinn.4381:

http://zoom.it/Zf9p

Dry Top, 251 years ago..

Why did you have to show that. Now I’m so nostalgic for all the places I used to be able to visit and can’t anymore. :-(

But interesting. The new Dry Top area is much larger than the old one.

Not really. We only went into the center of Dry Top before. The explorable area was surrounded by a circular cliff range (unlike GW2, GW1 shared its zone boundaries with both raised land, and lowered land as well as impassible rivers as opposed to just raised lands). Thus the circles we see in GW2’s world map is just the raised cliffs we saw around where we could walk in GW1.

Plus, however, the scaling has changed between the games.

I don’t think we’ll get a city there. Certainly not Malyck’s tree – why? 1) Malyck said it’s at the base of a river, there’s no river even close to Dry Top. 2) It’s too close, it couldn’t count as unknown. 3) Back to the river – the river talked about goes south of Dry Top, which leads to The Falls (of GW1). and 4) the giant tree seen in GW1 was a Stonewood tree, which is different to the Pale Tree’s species.

It’s likely nothing more than it was in GW1, and I don’t see anything to really argue it has changed.

Fluffball.8307:

So presumably Malyk’s Tree was influenced by… let’s say the druids. Other sylvari we meet might look like aloe husks.

Or maybe krait.

Tamias.7059:

I’d like to fully respond to your post in time, if possible, but I’d like to make a correction on this point, the source I linked to was the wrong one; the one I’d meant to paste was this.

Fair enough. However, this talks about the Brotherhood of the Dragon, not stone dwarves. Given the Brotherhood formed a pact with Glint long (how long, unknown) before the Rite of the Great Dwarf was envoked, it doesn’t seem to me that the two are related like you’re claiming.

Even then, your point fails in the sylvari, because again: Mordremoth isn’t a champion, but an Elder Dragon.

Honestly, I think your theory would hold a lot more water if you kept the “sylvari=dragon minion” mentality out of it completely. I can honestly see the sylvari being some backup weapon if the Rite of the Great Dwarf wasn’t good enough, but not so if they’re dragon minions – former or otherwise.

ElysianEternity.6215:

I mean we are told the EDs view each other as enemies

False. What we were told is “they are not allied.” This doesn’t mean they’re enemies, it just means they don’t work together.

Though Captain Whiting in Sea of Sorrows does say “this is the time of the Elder Dragons” (paraphrased) so it wouldn’t be odd to consider them as friendly-but-not-allied. The closest to “they’re enemies” we get is if the minions cross each others’ paths, they fight. But given that the Elder Dragons don’t care much on what they do (see here – Jormag doesn’t care that Sons of Svanir kill his female norn icebrood), this doesn’t account to much in regards to hostility between Elder Dragons.

Though I do want to see a battle between two dragon champions.

Fluffball.8307:

Since the entire planet is apparently covered in an “ocean of magic”, either there are a LOT more than 6 elder dragons, or they’re not very good at finding food.

(Or bizarre thought, the rest of Tyria is populated with beings far more competent and powerful than the likes of mursaat and seers, and the continent of Tyria is basically free food. )

Well, keep in mind that in the last dragon rise, all non-consumed magic was put into the Bloodstone. So their present placement may not be their choice so much as them looking for the final scraps of food. The DSD’s distance can be explained via the krait obelisks – as it’s said they are akin to the Bloodstones.

Tamias.7059:

If you hadn’t guessed already by now, it’s about here that the sylvari come in. Does any of the stuff above sound familiar? If you’ve been keeping up with all the threads proclaiming the sylvari to be dragon minions and the Pale Tree to be a dragon champion, it should. I would argue that, based on the example of the dwarves, it is possible to possess the similarities to dragon minions that sylvari have, and not be dragon minions – rather, almost the opposite. I would argue that the magic that spawned the Pale Tree is the same magic we see in the Rite of the Great Dwarf – something very similar to dragon magic, but used against the dragons. Just as the Great Dwarf and the Great Destroyer are two sides of the same coin, so too are the sylvari and Mordremoth.

But unlike the Great Dwarf, Mordremoth is an Elder Dragon. And as we’re lead to believe at least, one that corrupts and is not very nice either.

Your theory would stand on firmer ground if you cut Mordremoth and keep to the seeds in the cave as the would-be “dragon champion.”

However, I would like to postulate something for you. There is not one, but two artificial “acts like dragon minions” ideas going for you. The first you noted – the dwarves – the second… is the Foefire.

One of the main attributes to the Foefire ghosts is that they’re stuck living the last day of their life (sound familiar?) and that they see all living beings as equal enemies – the enemies of the caster, in this case the charr. They also hold shared mentalities (as Rytlock puts it, they hold Adelbern’s hatred). Furthermore, as we see in certain charr Personal Story steps and Ascalonian Catacombs, even certain events like Defend the Iron Legion camp from the ghost army, the stronger ghosts who lead the armies hold parts of their original personaltities and can even be convinced not to kill actual living charr. This, to me, is very similar to dragon minions – far more than the dwarves and especially more than the sylvari – in that the “weaker minions” are more or less mindless, while the stronger ones have more of their original personalities and can even act in their own methods, even at the risk of their master (Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan putting the Artesian waters at risk by calling off the six very powerful guards; Captain Whiting going out of his way to capture Cobiah instead of outright trying to kill him; Labwan the Deceiver’s odd actions can also count as this).

Magdaer and Sohothin which hold this magic predate the Exodus too, so one must wonder…

In the end though, I’m not really see the parallels you’re pointing out to such extremes. The sylvari Dream is not unique to them (White Stag) which alone puts a big dent in your theory; it is a (meta)physical place (Ogham Wilds waterfall, A Light in the Darkness) and is not a hive mind kind of set up which the dwarves now have, and which is what the dragon minions hold (so sayeth Killeen in Ghosts of Ascalon); and lastly, they hold more goals than just fighting Elder Dragons (you’ll find some with Wyld Hunts to fight the Sinister Triad, for example, in Brisban Wildslands – among other non-dragon things), unlike the dwarves.

Tamias.7059:

Dustfinger.9510:

great thread and I hope to delve into it further after work. I just wanted to chime in now though and state that A-net has confirmed that the sylvari are the Pale trees interpretation of humanity. So while we don’t know if it was a conscious decision on her part, we do know that she did model them specifically after humanity.

Do you mind if I have a source? There was a theory (I think it might have even been mine, actually) a long time ago that the sylvari are humanoid because the seed that would become the Pale Tree was planted on the graves of Ronan’s family (i.e. humans), and it even got a mention in a blog post, but the existence of a sylvari from another tree (Malyck) would seemingly put that to rest.

Oh! Oh! I can! I can! Pick me!

The main key to the design was developing an obvious anatomy that clearly described the race as plant rather than an offshoot of human. However, because the race tightly relates to the essence of human due to the Pale Tree’s influences from Ronan, the overall form has a human silhouette. But if you look more closely, you’ll see the forms are really quite alien. They are a collection of abstract notions the Pale Tree had about what made up the human, as she really only saw the surface. They are a tree’s interpretation of humans.

http://www.talktyria.net/2011/08/11/sylvari-lore-interview-with-ree-soesbee-kristen-perry/

Tamias.7059:

• If you subscribe to the sylvari = dragon minions theory, then they are both capable of forming mental bonds with dragon champions (the dwarves with Glint, and the sylvari with Mordremoth) (source)

That source says nothing about Glint. And all it says is that the dwarves have a shared consciousness that makes them the Great Dwarf (which you already noted, though you incorrectly call the Great Dwarf a separate entity from the dwarves themselves like the Dream is for the sylvari). So I don’t see how you come to this conclusion at all. Sounds like you’re making things up to fit your theory.

Tamias.7059:

• Again, if you subscribe to the above theory, the fate of both is inextricably linked to the Elder Dragons. The dwarves lost their independence and began acting with single purpose in much the same way many believe the sylvari will.

I don’t see how “sylvari = dragon minions” is a requirement to sylvari potentially eventually acting with a single purpose (however, I would say all things hint to the opposite – that as more Elder Dragons die, the sylvari will have larger-spread freedoms and purposes).

Tamias.7059:

Now I’m not saying anything as extreme as the dwarves are dragon minions – just that the magic that allowed the dwarves to defeat the minions of the dragon is very similar in nature to the magic used by the dragon itself (where have we seen that before?)

Tamias.7059:

Where, and how, would the dwarves have acquired this magic?

I’ve had a theory on this, personally. There’s not much to back it up – mainly due to the lack of information of the last cycle – but it goes as such:

I think Jeff’s words in the interview with GuildMag you linked is very important to note:

Jeff Grubb: The Great Dwarf can best be thought of as collective consciousness of the dwarves themselves (indeed, in making the prophesy of the Great Dwarf defeating the Great Destroyer coming true). Has anyone MET the Great Dwarf, and found him to be a real being? Well, that has not happened.

This implies that the Great Dwarf very well could be an actual figure rather than just the concept of a shared consciousness between the dwarves. Tie this into Anvil Rock, and the history of the jotun – yes, the jotun. And this line is a good show of why:

Long ago, the jotun possessed the ability to use magic and were skilled enough with it to create enchanted monuments in the Shiverpeak Mountains.

The jotun were known for their magic, and enchanting stone. My theory is simply this:

I believe that the “Great Dwarf” was a jotun giant-king who crafted the originally-stone race to combat the Elder Dragons. At some point, through magic, they gained flesh and blood and the Hammer of the Great Dwarf was enchanted with the magic to return them to their original purpose.

Tamias.7059:

(Incidentally, a lot of this stuff begs a comparison between the elder races and the current ones. If we’re playing that game, I’d say dwarf = sylvari (obviously), mursaat = asura (the game tries to lead us on this one, see Arah dialogue, jotun = norn, Forgotten = human (ties to the Six Gods, spread across the world), and then by elimination Seers = charr. But this is all fairly irrelevant to the main thrust of the thread).

Off-topic but I would disagree with all but the jotun/mursaat comparisons. I would link Forgotten to the Sylvari due to the immunity to Elder Dragon magics, while charr to the dwarves for both are more industrial groups. This would leave the humans with seers. This would also be evident in continuing the match-up of the five scholars with the five ancient races (though not in Arah, there’s a charr scholar studying the dwarves seen in Victory or Death instance).

I would like to point something out that’s clearly missed.

http://nl.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/327657138

This was shortly before release, and Glint, Rotscale, and Kuunavang were all compared to each other. In historical note – in 2009 at either Gamescom or PAX, Glint and Rotscale were compared back then; and as pointed out already, Glint and Kuunavang were in 2007 via The Movement of the World.

I would like to point out that the Movement of the World doesn’t say Glint and Kuunavang are unrelated to the Elder Dragons, but that they’re vastly different and that the Elder Dragons are greatly older and born of different origins – which is very true.

We have strong enough evidence to believe that there’s a seventh Elder Dragon out there, tied to Kuunavang. I would also point out that not all six present Elder Dragons are necessarily tied to continental Tyria – yet we know very clearly that the jotun and dwarves speak of six (and for the jotun, six that consumed the world) – it would be interesting to find out that Mordremoth and the DSD (who’s names are not known presently to be in such records and are unknown to have had previous continental Tyria influence unlike the others) are not of those “sextant of swallowers” much like Kuunavang’s Elder Dragon may not be. Just possibilities to be thrown out there.

As to the TL;DR question: I do not think it will be touched upon for quite some time, sadly. ArenaNet seems overly reluctant to open new areas quickly, let alone Cantha specifically, and I don’t think we’ll go into Cantha’s history until we go there (sans modern (post-GW1) history that is).

My own theory for why the Empire of the Dragon is called such relates to the Celestial Dragon. We never actually are told that formerly-Empress Tahmu was Canthan, despite the mention of hostile naga (which itself is strange given that naga were peaceful until the Jade Wind) and historically we only know of one city in the Empire of the Dragon. Combine this with the knowledge that humanity sailed to Cantha, we have strong reason to believe that while they may have been divided tribes they could have come from somewhere advanced enough culturally to be an empire. And Kaineng Tah could have come from a tribe that already revered Tahmu the Celestial Dragon.

Just one of the potential possibilities I’ve theorized. Another being that the “Elder Star Dragon” that is Kuunavang’s master may be benevolent and hold ties to both the Celestials and to the earlier emperors of Cantha.

Though Occam’s Razor would say it’s called Empire of the Dragon for the reason the Factions manual points out, with no relation directly to the Elder Dragons, regardless of if the dragons in Cantha are tied to Elder Dragons.

ElysianEternity.6215:

One one hand, yes dragon corruption spreads that’s what it naturally does. On the other hand it could also mean that something/someone already was corrupted by Mord. That could have been Scarlet because past Jory’s cut-out death apparently everything went the same as in our version which again would explain Scarlet’s weird looks in the cutscene.

It could also refer to Crucible of Eternity, the Nightmare, Wychmire Swamp, the poisonous creature in Thaumanova, or even something that was originally intended to be added with the Aftermath update.

Lots of possibilities still.

ElysianEternity.6215:

On one hand we had parts of her plans (mini probe, plans for the drill, alliance sheet and so on). But! We also had drawings in her lair. Remember the crudely drawn stuff in black and red that all seemed to link to her nightmares and her vision?
So why shouldn’t a huge drawing of a dragon relate to the other things she drew?
And what would be the point of doodling a dragon to the ceiling if it was a step towards her goal rather than something done in an episode of lunacy or whatever?

The drawings on the pieces of paper look far more frantic than the cave painting, which is styled in a way similar to other cave paintings (particularly those attributed to the grawl and ogres). Kind of a vast difference, I would think. A lot more effort went into the dragon than the frantic “scratch drawings” (as I call that style) of the palm tree entrapped by red thorns.

ElysianEternity.6215:

There’s also another interesting thing in the comment section of the reddit thread which both points to Mord not being her endgame and yet back to multiple dragons.
This bit by that_shaman in the comment section.

-snip-

Was the entity a dragon (champion)? Why would it support the other dragons ruling then? Or was it something else? Why would it want the dragons to rule if it took over Scarlet’s mind? How does ‘dragons’ ruling fit with bowing to a single new master which we got now? Could it still all link together? Could it really be Laz’ wanting the dragons to rule solely to get his revenge on all of Tyria? Keeping in mind that this was an alternate ending and we don’t know yet how much of it still is canon, this still leaves some good room for speculation.

I would take everything and anything from the dat with as much grains of salt as I would take concept art, Utopia, or even Arachnia. Until we get hints in-game to imply its existence, take it as non-existing.

Angelwood.7652:

That said and done, I like your theory konig, about there being someone else who wants to use the ED and therefor manipulated Scarlet into waking them, but what you might have briefly not thought about, cause I’m sure you know, is that ingame, we don’t know about mordremoth. not his name, and i don’t think his existance either. And we ourselves shouldn’t have either but we do because of the initial “teeth of mordremoth” at the COE. So in my opinion that’s why the players and taime mention ED’s plural, because they don’t know which one she’s targeting and don’t know either there are more than they currently know off.

The Priory and Inquest (and by extension, the Order of Whispers (spies in the Priory are amongst the researchers who mention six Elder Dragons) and Pact (both Priory and Whispers would share this much, I’m sure), possibly Vigil (by extension of the Pact knowing)) knows of six Elder Dragons being in existence from jotun stalea and dwarven texts – both having mentioned six.

Now, whether the name is known is unknown, but its existence is known – including to the PC, I would imagine, who canonically is the second-in-command at the Pact and has laid waste to the Crucible of Eternity.

Internet went out on me last night so I didn’t get to finish going through the thread….

Stooperdale.3560:

We mainly know about the entity giving nightmares to Scarlet through her journal. The journal calls these “whispers from the forest” and that’s the only clue we really have about this entity. I can’t think of much else that is going to whisper to Scarlet from the forest, that is a separate from Dream and Nightmare, than the Forest Dragon.

However, Scarlet could have been within Caledon Forest or Metrica Province when writing that, especially with the Mender mention, so… doesn’t really count for much. And certainly doesn’t serve as a strong hint to the “jungle dragon” (not forest dragon, jungle dragon).

Stooperdale.3560:

For all the talk about Scarlet awakening dragons plural she does talk about Tyria bowing to a singular new master. I think Scarlet’s dialogue is more relevant that Tiami’s speculation.

True, but think:

She’s saying this as she’s dying. Meaning she knows her plan is incomplete. So it may be that she’s either 1) referring to the entity, and that the entity’s plan is not complete, or 2) referring to the fact that she herself will no longer be there to stop Mordremoth and the Elder Dragon will rise without anyone being any the wiser, and will thus be able to corrupt the world with more ease than the others.

Stooperdale.3560:

If the Mursaat are out there with the technology to hide then why don’t they just hide again? This seems exactly the wrong time to stop hiding from elder dragons. If the Inquest have taken the Mursaat magitech from Arah then I still don’t see what they have go gain from stirring the Dragons up. All they need to do is create their secret havens and continue all their other plans for world Domination.

The thought process is that they’re trying to speed up the waking process since the cycle had already began, so that they go to sleep sooner and they have to wait less time.

Why would the mursaat wait so long to return (returning shortly before GW1)? Who knows. Even outside of this theory, that’s an oddity.

Shiren.9532:

Does Scarlet seem like the kind of person to care about how the world views her to get what she wants?

Canach at least thinks she is. And I was taking his lines as my basis.

Then there’s the confirmed fact by Scott McGough that Scarlet is narcissistic and egotistical. These kinds of people want to be praised by others, they want attention.

So yes, Scarlet would be the kind of person to care about how others view her.

Fafnir.5124:

Her ultimate goal was to die so she succeeded. Pale tree only one who knew what was happening in that head of hers thanked us afterwards. Though she could be lying.

I don’t think Scarlet wanted to die. If she did, there’d be oh so many easier ways to go about it.

Like walking in the open down Divinity’s Reach.

jinx.2813:

This is just a shot in the dark but could the Entity we’re talking about be the ‘Mysterious Entity’ we saw at Thaumanova,another intersection of the ley lines?

You refer to the Thaumanova Anomaly, which seems to be – I believe – chaos magic mixing in with the Mists (or at least, a dev said the fractal would show this but we never really see anything that truly screams such except maybe the portals which is rather lame).

Shiren.9532:

Why Scarlet? Why not use the machine on someone else if he is Inquest?

I cannot find it now, but I recall reading/hearing that he did use others first, other students of his, who did not survive.

notebene.3190:

Curtis Johnson.8456:

Gibson.4036:

And then we need to burn a transmutation charge whenever we want to move from town clothes to a combat look. Not great for roleplayers.

There is no transmutation charge to change outfits or toggle it on and off.
Transmutation charges are for applying new skins to specific armor pieces, same as now.

Yes outfits are all or nothing.
Yes wearable in combat. There will be no non-combat equipment anymore, unless you count tonics.

‘Outfits’ are all or nothing. What about items that were sold as individual items?

Why is this ok?

http://i.imgur.com/oc1qxC8.jpg

But this is not ok?

http://i.imgur.com/vXM6dUe.jpg

(And what was wrong with the human female running animation?)

There is a complete inconsistency here, it doesn’t make any sense at all.

The article states that single items are usable as armor pieces instead of town clothing.

Single items, such as the Fuzzy Hats and Scarlet’s Spaulders, will be unlocked for your entire account and usable with any armor weight. Some basic clothing items that are no longer available for purchase will be converted into endless tonics.

In that specific line my mind wasn’t thinking of anything particular. But if I were to relate it to GW there are multiple possibilities:

• Caudecus causing a human civil war utilizing the bandits and separatists.
• Evon causing a economical (read: not outright combative) internal conflict with LA.
• Bangar Ruinbringer siding with the Renegades and causing a schism amongst the three legions.
• Flixx finally taking a drive to make asura the top dog in his lifetime.

The main point in it is to make the enemy a figure one can understand whereas the Elder Dragons are not. That if you were in slightly different shoes – or they had an oh so different stance/agenda – then you wouldn’t want to fight the figure but join him. Or heck, even allowing a chance to join the figure, it creates a great chance for player interaction.

ElysianEternity.6215:

Unless the dragon painting that accompanied the journal about the entity was a giant red herring, I’d keep my hopes concerning good old Laz’ being the entity low…unless…
…Lazarus got corrupted by Mordremoth! (Plot-twist!)

There was more in the lair than just the journal and dragon motif, however. There was the marionette and drill schematics, things related to the Tower of Nightmares and the Fervid Censor spores, and of course the map of probes.

Why must the dragon motif be related solely to the journal and not anything else in the lair or just Scarlet in general (e.g., steps in her goal)?

Horst Hortensie.5420:

There are two thumpers right beside Divnity’s Reach on the map from the Breachmaker, which weren’t in game (either because the takeout of low level zones or they are at a position which we cannot reach).

All theories lack if they do not take Jennah in account. The very first target of our villain. Not just the watchwork knights. She wanted to kidnap the queen (remember Logan moaning that he wasn’t informed).

Scarlet’s actions during Queen’s Jubilee content was done on a whim, not part of her grand master plan. It just happened to also give her a source of shock troops (Twisted Watchworks).

SkeletalHorses.2108:

Jormag isn’t the only dragon who did the ‘mental stuff’.

If you go back to the events of the personal story, during the fight with the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan at the Artesian Waters […]

I’m also a bit confused by your statement that no two dragons corrupt in the same fashion. If you mean it by the elements and the resulting creatures, then yes, indeed they don’t. If by “fashion” you mean the methods they employ to corrupt things and beings, it’s a bit arguable. Jormag corrupted through his minions. Zhaitan raised hundreds of undead to do his bidding. Kralkatorrik can seemingly corrupt with his very breath. We’ve yet to see Mordremoth’s, DSD’s, and Primordius’ since they hardly have any presence in the current observable world. But if you analyze the ones that we do see, on a basic level, it’s pretty much the same. The very essence of the dragons (Draconic Energy?)—their presence, alone, can corrupt everything they touch. Coming in direct contact with the Sanguinary Blade drove Steag Frostbeard insane, just like that relic Kellach recovered from the Ruins of Orr corrupted him and drove him crazy.

Unless I completely misunderstood what you meant by that statement, then it would be nice if you could clarify it some more.

Firstly, mind games != mental corruption. The latter is what I meant. Jormag and his champions are all about doing direct mind alterations (see in Edge of Destiny, the Dragonspawn tries to mesmerize Zojja and Snaff). While a lot of Risen are mesmers, they’re more using the illusions than doing telepathy – which fits into the whole “risen are liars and use mind games to demoralize”. Guess I wasn’t clear on that.

As for no two dragons corrupt in the same fashion, I mean how they themselves corrupt – it’s known that, indirectly, all Elder Dragons can corrupt equally. Cases like Kellach and the Sanguinary Blade are such “indirect corruption” cases.

Primordus corrupts earth and lava by forming destroyers slowly over time in vats of lava. Jormag convinces individuals to join his side rather than using corruption to enslave like the others (whether he uses promises of power or other things like fascination ala EoD). Zhaitan corrupts only corpses. Kralkatorrik corrupts the physical things (water was more or less ignored by the Dragonbrand’s corruption) with his breath, and even his minions seem to corrupt via physical touch.

But indirectly? We know Primordus can corrupt living beings (an interview); we know that Jormag can corrupt via physical contact (Sanguinary Blade); we know Zhaitan can corrupt land (Orr), plants (Sparkfly), and living beings (Kellach/Sparkfly); and we know that Kralkatorrik can corrupt mentally (Edge of Destiny). But they don’t do this themselves, this isn’t how they seem to… prefer, for lack of a better word, corrupting.

Yes, dragon energy’s mere presence corrupts – that is, after all, what dragon energy is. But how dragon energy is used directly by the Elder Dragons and their minions varies.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

Knowing what we know about Scarlet’s plans, she wanted to be free from her destiny, whatever that was, but didnt agree with either side, the pale tree or the nightmare court. Why or how would a dragon do that in the first place, even if the pale tree was the dragon’s champion and the dragon reclaimed it? The last thing a dragon would do is free its minions.

So the voice in Scarlet’s head must’ve been telling her to wake the dragon, because waking the dragon seems to be the complete opposite of her original goal.

You seem to be assuming sylvari are dragon minions… Your conclusion only works with such a presumption being accurate. And there’s still 0 hard evidence to support that hypothesis, regardless of how much you and others want it to be so.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

Then theres the words of the pale tree in the short story. “By attempting to understand the forces that make us, you will unleash them.” Maybe the pale tree was talking about the sylvari when it said us, and then Scarlet ended up unleashing a dragon. The pale tree cut off Scarlet from the dream to avoid Scarlet directly corrupting the dream. I don’t see anything else the words could mean at this point.

It could have meant the Mists which is the origin of all things. It could mean the laws of reality and/or magic, which is what allows Tyrians to exist (especially sylvari with the latter). It can mean a dozen plus things. This is the main issue I was trying to point out in the OP – people are making presumptions over what they want, rather than what’s possible.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

The real curious thing here is that asura gates, which are based on dragon energy, can cut a sylvari off from the dream, just for a second or two, but we know trying to corrupt a sylvari just kills them. So synthesized dragon energy can disrupt the dream, and actual dragon energy kills the sylvari, while that doesnt prove or disprove the sylvari being dragon minions, it’s a curiosity and will probably end up being a plot point at some point.

Asura gates were powered by Primordus while it was dormant. Dragon energy is the corruptive magic of Elder Dragons, otherwise all magic would be counted as dragon energy because all magic has over the cycles been consumed and released by the Elder Dragons – when the Elder Dragons are dormant, the magic they release are not corruptive thus not dragon energy.

And even then, modern asura gates are not powered by an Elder Dragon anymore.

Aethelbert.1497:

Scarlet could have promised them protection when Dragon comes, power to crush their enemies and et cetera.

We were told what Scarlet promised them: dredge technology.

Uruz Six.6594:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think it’s one of two possibilities. First possibility is Lazarus, the second is the Inquest.

Well, if the bandits are outed as White Mantle stooges, we take the Nightmare as Lazarus’s influence via the Dream, we take what you posted below, and then we take the Sinister Triad alliance, then the answer might just be ‘Why not both?’

Indeed, why not both. That was actually a hidden idea I was getting to. But as I said before, my personal theory is not the ultimate point of the thread – it was merely a side-thought.

Xenophanes.8360:

For the next part of the theory, I think the main thing to take into account is that the characters that are conversing, the B-iconics specifically, are not omniscient narrators. Therefore, their thoughts on the events are personal as well, not factual. These thoughts can be as speculative as our own and fulfill the function of these characters being the vessel for the players, since our own player character lacks a voice in most of these things.

I’m actually pretty sure that the B-iconics aren’t even completely aware of Mordremoth, let alone his name. This is evidenced in their conversation in the Dead End Bar with them listing off possibilities with only the dragons in their immediate knowledge being mentioned.

You are correct. They are not omnipotent. However, we’re hearing the words of the Second-in-Command of the Pact and slayer of Zhaitan, as well as an asura genius (even for her own age) who had been studying Scarlet for who-knows-how-long and is an expert (more or less) on her. Would you really discount two experts in the field claiming they don’t know what they’re talking about so easily? I wouldn’t.

Sure, they may not know Mordremoth’s name, and the other biconics certainly are clueless about the sixth Elder Dragon until Taimi and the PC clued them in, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be right about Scarlet’s goals. or the effect Scarlet’s actions had.

Finally got time again, time to respond to posts one and all.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd’s machine, you’ve been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours.

I think this was simply a case of Scarlet’s split personality. As you may have noticed, her voice changed from our initial encounter with her (later taters!) to the Marionette test, where she is suddenly way more serious. I think she was arguing with herself. And in that respect, it would make sense.

One thing that I found very odd, was how the npc’s basically all confirm how Scarlet wanted to awaken an elder dragon… but they don’t explain why. Why would you want to do that? It doesn’t sound logical, even for someone as crazy as Scarlet, to want to awaken an Elder Dragon. That is why I’m having difficulty with accepting that was her goal all along.

I don’t see Scarlet going from playful to more serious being a case of split personality. I see that more as a lightened character development – while she’s unquestionably undefeated, she is far more playful, joking, and self-secure. She holds no worries or fears. Then she’s given her first defeat… she’s just as playful in Twilight Assault, but because she isn’t there. Now fast forward, Tower of Nightmares fell, at Marionette and in the end she’s far more serious because she’s being pushed back a lot more than she thought it was ever possible. She no longer has the luxury of being lax and playful. And she’s about to go with her biggest plan: assaulting one of the strongest city.

To your second paragraph: I think they don’t try to explain it because they openly admit they don’t know. When I read Taimi and the PC’s lines in the Aftermath instance, that’s what I get. “This is what she wanted, but we don’t know why she did.” And others just go “she’s crazy, she doesn’t need a reason.” Because they don’t understand crazy.

ElysianEternity.6215:

As for whether Scarlet intended one dragon or more – seems like it was supposed to lead to Mordremoth (see: the datamined reddit stuff floating around) but then Anet took a turn with the story midway and changed it and now it could lead to Mordremoth and and whatever other dragon they want to, tho the thumpers in the north could be a hint to Jormag.

To me, the datamined stuff never led to Mordremoth being the end-goal of Scarlet. No more than what we presently got, at least. It was just the last she did was wake up Mordremoth.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

A dragon knows everything its minions know. The dream is a shared consciousness between all sylvari. While it’s not necessarily a hive mind to control all sylvari, information is shared in someway that’s not quite clear yet.

The dream behaves kind of like what we already know of dragons.

No no no. Dragon’s knowledge of their minions is hive mind. This is shown in Edge of Destiny and explained in a now-gone Guild Wars 2 Guru post by Stephane Lo Presti who was posting for Jeff Grubb – images of post can be found in the links here. As stated by Killeen in Ghosts of Ascalon, the Dream of Dreams is NOT a hive mind. At all. The two are completely different.

And while yes, dragons know what their minions know, and indeed I overlooked this in my post (I concede that point), there is still the fact that you have ancient creatures capable of understanding modern technology. There’s a difference between knowing “the dredge have sonic technology” and knowing how to use said sonic technology to locate ley lines. So it is still a questionable aspect to me. Plus, this requires Scarlet to have been corrupted by Mordremoth – but until the end, she doesn’t sound corrupted in the least (heck, even then her “sounding corrupted” is questionable!).

Plus, and far more importantly, why would Mordremoth if it truly were the entity work with such a round-about method? Jormag awoke by Drakkar taking magic from the Sons of Svanir; Primordus was supposed to awake by the Great Destroyer as it simultaneously wiped out as much life as it could. So why would Mordremoth go about waking up by building these alliances and technological alterations to attack a city to drill into the ley lines?

geogyf.5087:

1) The Kodan saved the world.
If they hadnt gone south, we would never know about Jormag & the elder dragons.
Special dialogue in their iceberg ships confirms that. In a sense they formed the Pact

I don’t get how you get this. Firstly, Primordus woke before Jormag by 50-ish years. Secondly, the norn knew of Jormag before they knew the kodan and furthermore, they interacted with Jormag directly. Thirdly, the world would know of Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik regardless of the knowledge of Jormag – they’d know less of the Elder Dragons, but it’s still…

geogyf.5087:

2) The Vizier of Orr saved the world.
If he didnt cast the epic spell, Orr would be ruled by the Charr.
And now Zhaitan would have The Undead Charr Nation of Orr.

So those countless charr risen that already exist count for nothing? :P

And honestly, I think magical-everything is scarier than risen driving tanks…

geogyf.5087:

4) Humans
[…]
Cons
Queen Jenna must be doing real propaganda
Divinity Reach morale is in a perpetual state of happiness (feasts, confetti everywhere)

Kinda confused on this. The constant carnival is Caudecus’ doing – not Jennah’s. So what is the propaganda by Jennah? She’s not hiding the facts, Caudecus is. He’s the one keeping humanity from going full out on the dragons, centaurs, and keeping the civilians in a constant state of ignorance-through-happiness.

geogyf.5087:

5) Sylvari
Pros
They have a God of nature (Pale Tree) to guide them.
The Dream is a source of knowledge (they become emerged fully self aware)
Cons
The Dream has also negative aspects. It has formed the Nightmare Court.
Not possible to work their problems. The Sylvari are kind, and the Court has taken advantage of that.

The Pale Tree is not a god. The Nightmare Court did not form from the negative aspects of the Dream but rather formed said negative aspects (or rather, was formed then found them). Not all non-Courtiers are kind, actually…

Holy lack of punctuation batman.

You’ve got fact and speculation mixed together.

Yes, the sylvari are connected to the Dream of Dreams. Yes, they cannot control it.

No, we do not know that there are walls specifically within the sylvari mind. The “walls” mentioned are mentioned for all minds – asuran and sylvari are specific examples (however, the asura who went into the machine that Scarlet went into died). And these do not link to the “dark areas” of the Dream – supposedly they link to the Eternal Alchemy, but we really don’t know where they lead.

Yes, the machine “tore the walls down”. Though this is by far metaphorical, just to be clear.

Nothing says anything got access to Scarlet’s mind, let alone “a powerful old creature older than the dragons” – we have, in fact, absolutely NO idea who the “entity” is. All claims of who the entity is, is purely speculation. Most speculate it is Mordremoth, one of the Elder Dragons (the one who woke up), or a champion of Mordremoth.

And no, nothing says that waking Mordremoth was her end-goal, let alone not simply a means to an end for Scarlet.

Keyce.8137:

I can neither confirm nor deny that Scarlet was a Soundless Sylvari. I can, however, tell you that I have come across zero evidence supporting that hypothesis.

Soundless do not contribute to the Dream in any way, shape, or form, except second-hand if the memories of a Dreamer or Courtier involve them.

And I don’t think Anet would retcon their own recent lore by allowing Sylvari to be corrupted or influenced by Elder Dragons or their associated minions. We already know Zhaitan can’t turn them into Risen Sylvari; they just straight die rather than change into zombies.

It was confirmed by Scott McGough in this interview that Scarlet was cut off from the Dream of Dreams thus making her “like” a Soundless. She isn’t one – because the cut off is not of her choice.

Stooperdale.3560:

There is an argument that the Nightmare Court have broken free from the dogma of the Ventari tablet just by being in the Nightmare Court. Following the Jungle Dragon would just be replacing the dogma of a ancient script with the tyranny of an Elder Dragon.

Erm… not quite… Well, for starters there’s not much to “break free” from, since it’s just a philosophy – dragon corruption, however, is more akin to enslavement than a mere philosophy (exception: Jormag corrupts, primarily, those who willingly turn to him). And one can argue that the Nightmare Court are in fact more entrenched by the Ventari Tablet because they go out of their way to do the complete opposite of the tablet.

Weindrasi.3805:

Initially, I would have said that Scarlet had cut herself off from the dream, and the memories wouldn’t return, but I’m not so sure.
Even after Scarlet cut her ties to the Mother, the Mother was still aware of Scarlet’s emotions and her suffering. If you talk to the Mother Tree now, she has a dialogue that thanks you for killing Scarlet, because you basically freed Scarlet from being in pain as she tried to resist dragon corruption.
It sounds to me like the Pale Tree was still in Scarlet’s mind, aware of what was happening, even if they could no longer communicate due to Mordy and Scarlet’s own unwillingness. And if that’s the case, it’s possible Scarlet’s memories could have still flowed into the Dream. We really don’t know enough about how the Dream or the Mother work to determine it for sure.

Firstly, the Pale Tree is never in a sylvari’s mind. The Dream of Dreams is not a hive mind – this is a constant and common misconception that was clarified in the novel Ghosts of Ascalon.

However, I don’t think Scarlet was tied to the Dream still – aside from Scott’s statement in the above linked interview, the Pale Tree could easily just have been stating in a way of assumption and empathetic understanding – like how you say “I know how you feel” to someone when you’re trying to comfort them, you don’t really know how they feel, but you say it anyways.

Jamers.1629:

Bigtony.5089:

Jamers.1629:

Primordus and Jormag were similar sizes in GW1. Kralkatorrik was the only one that was HUGE, really.

We didnt see Jormag in gw1

My bad, just checked the wiki and it says it was “Drakkar”. I was sure that between GW1 and GW2 it was confirmed that it was Jormag after all, but I guess not.

The issue was that players thought that it was confirmed to be Jormag – per wording in the novel Edge of Destiny. This thought derived from peculiar wording and the lack of knowledge that dragon champions can create dragon champions. This was later clarified, however.

Maethor.2810:

I remember hearing a while after EotN’s release that the dragon in Drakkar lake was Jormag. I also remember hearing closer toward GW2’s release that they decided to change that, changing it to a champion of Jormag instead.

Now I can’t guarantee that’s true, as it’s very possible it was just fan theory at the time that it was stated to be Jormag. It’s been long enough that I can’t specifically recall where it was I read about it.

The change was during Eye of the North development. They originally had it to be Jormag in the concept art, changed it to what we see in EotN, then thought “this is too small to be an Elder Dragon,” thought to pass it off as a juvenile Elder Dragon but passed that away as “it gives them a sense of vulnerability we don’t want” (paraphrasing Jeff Grubb’s wording), thus it became a mere dragon champion.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

6 dragons rose the last time. It quite interesting that even the survivors don’t tell about them. Odgen, Whisper, Jotun and Norn are known as survivors, but none really tells about the things that happened long time ago.

Uh… Ogden wasn’t alive then. Nor were the Order of Whispers. And nothing beyond a questionable source (Thruln the Lost) tells us the norn were around then either. The survivors were the seers, Forgotten, dwarves, and jotun. Mursaat survived too but they left the world until shortly before GW:Prophecies. The seers were almost all wiped out, so their culture likely bit the dust during the last rise. The jotun fell to civil war thus lost their ability to read their knowledge. The Forgotten kept to themselves, and knowledge the dwarves had fell into mythology.

Shiren.9532:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

In the instance, it’s talked about Scarlet redirecting the ley lines to multiple dragons. Not just one.

So it may be that she was out to empower multiple dragons – perhaps for the same reason she let Thaumanova blow up. She wanted to watch what happened, and learn from it.

Nothing on the console or monitor in the Breachmaker indicated something went wrong. It’s said that the drill was designed to continue it’s actions even if Scarlet dies. I never got the impression that the drill’s purpose was thwarted or disrupted in any way. Whatever the drill did was exactly what it was supposed to do. It seemed to only send a surge towards one dragon, not multiple ones. Unless she had plans to fly off to another location and start drilling again (I know there is a theory based on the other maps in the control room) it seems her goal in Lion’s Arch was Maguuma Falls dragon and that dragon alone.

You misunderstood me. I wasn’t saying the drill messed up – though nothing really says it did its job right, come to think of it. I was saying that she intended to send energy to multiple dragons eventually.

Gummy.4278:

now that this arc is over and we know who is the new and upcoming villain is.

Does that mean that now we go back to being second to Trahearne? Who wants to play that way? I for one was a little disappointed at him being the hero in the main story and you playing second fiddle. The one thing Anet did right in Scarlet’s LS arc was let you be the one to be the hero, the stake planted firmly in her greens was a big payoff for the ending of the LS.

What do you think?

I don’t think Mordremoth will be the upcoming villain. It’s possible, but certainly not clear cut.

I mean, Belinda’s dialogue hints at a focus on the Bandits/White Mantle, and I’ve been hearing that the LW will return to GW1 lore – White Mantle is right up that ally.

Trahearne isn’t a main hero. Neither was Kormir for those relating the two. I disagree with Kal Spiro.9745 saying that you’re not the main hero. The thing is, you are the main hero, but you’re a main hero that cannot fill certain roles – and those roles are filled by NPCs. You’re the main hero, but you cannot be the last Tyian to study in Shing Jea Monastery; so they made Mhenlo fill that role. You’re the main hero, but the player cannot be stuck behind the logistics because the player needs to be guided to face Zhaitan (and not, say, take the Pact and go after Jormag or Kralkatorrik), and the player cannot be a member of an Order yet an independent figure respected by all three Orders to lead them against an Elder Dragon, so Trahearne fills that role.

Trahearne isn’t the main hero, nor is he meant to be. He isn’t the GWverse version of Commander Shepard, but rather the GWverse version of Captain Anderson/Commander Hacket who sends Shepard on his path and sets Shepard up for the various missions and tasks. He just has the extra task of being the one who gets weakend by cleansing Orr – because a sylvari is seemingly needed for this.

kokiman.2364:

Lynx Raven Raide.2764:

Kal Spiro.9745:

It’s not about you, and even though you killed Scarlet the LS still wasn’t about you, it was about DE2.0.

Actually, if you go to LA, your name will be on the list of heroes that helped defend and liberate LA

Naw, it’s just a generic list that puts the name of the reader on it. At least 4 of my characters never participated in any of those LA events and were still mentioned there.

Like most LW-based dialogues that change about, it is determined by account accomplishments (aka achievements) and not actual character participation. In this case, if you did the Grave of Steel and Lunacy achievement, then your character shows up.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s Kasmeer’s name listed instead if you didn’t.

Mystic Starfish.2586:

engineers were created by charr, especially with the invention of gunpowder which wasn’t present in gw1. So sylvari engineer is a rather new combination. Guardians and Thieves also weren’t present in gw1, but thieves are basically updated assassins and guardians are an amalgamation of monks, paragons, and rits, which were all gw1 professions.

nitpickery but the charr didn’t create blackpowder. Dwarves did.There is even a dude named Blackpowder. The charr took the invention from the dwarven ruins. They did, however, invent guns – not cannons though.

Erukk.1408:

If the ending of the season is fixed, it will be probably be capped off with a big event like this season was. Though, I’m not sure what exactly could be as a big event (lore-wise) like an awakening of an Elder Dragon.

…Elder Dragon attacking a major city maybe? Who knows.

Death of an Elder Dragon. Success of an Elder Dragon (utter defeat of the Pact leading to massive retaliation for the assault?). Caudecus ousting Queen Jennah and turning Divinity’s Reach into a human-only zone. Return of Lazarus. Canthan ships sailing into the Sea of Sorrows. The DSD or its minions arrive on the shores. Abaddon’s Mouth erupts, opening the Door of Komalie and access into the gods’ realms. Kralkatorrik returns creating a second Dragonbrand.

These are all big things that done right can be as or more epic as Mordremoth’s awakening. Which… Wasn’t too epic honestly.

CureForLiving.5360:

Erukk.1408:

If the ending of the season is fixed, it will be probably be capped off with a big event like this season was. Though, I’m not sure what exactly could be as a big event (lore-wise) like an awakening of an Elder Dragon.

…Elder Dragon attacking a major city maybe? Who knows.

I guess that’s the issue when you’re continuously trying to top your last big thing.
To quote Zero Punctuation: “what do you do after you threaten to destroy every living thing in the galaxy? Threaten to destroy every living thing and also there cat?”

You don’t have to go bigger. That’s something people tend to misconcieve. What you have to do is match it or go into a new field.

Using your quote example: instead of destroying the galaxy which was done, you go with something less physical and more psychological or into some other field. It’s one thing to kill a world consuming entity of no morals, and another to prevent a politician from creating a massive civil war. And both can be epic.

The act doesn’t have to be epic. How it is done has to be.

CureForLiving.5360:

Horst Hortensie.5420:

The norn personal story tells that Jotuns once were a powerful and civilized race which destroyed itself in a civil war.

Yeah but in the flashback they’re still loincloth wearing and covered in body paint. Probably ANet didn’t feel like making unique armoured Jotun models just for a single personal story instance.

Likely is laziness since NPCs says motifs depict them as better looking, and there is the Stargazer and a few ancient ghost jotun in Dredgehaunt Cliffs for two skill challenges. Enough to merit a single model I think. But nope.

BrunoBRS.5178:

regarding my comment, i see it wasn’t taken the way i expected. no, it’s not meant to be an insult or anything, it’s just that he reminds me of those prosecutors. you’re like “i got this now”, and then he slaps you in the face and say that it’s all conjecture. it was meant for comical, light hearted fun-poking, not criticism.

though in all seriousness, i’m an advocate that the story is more straightforward than you lead us to believe, konig. convoluted stories with too much misinformation and false leads and twists are not good stories, and definitely not stories you want to tell in the cadence ANet has chosen.

I don’t have time to go through all the posts but there is a theme in a few like Burno’s and that is that I’m trying go say things aren’t as simple as people think.

But that’s not mg main point. The theory at the end was just a last minute addendum to put my own theory forward. The main point was to say this:

People are making assumptions on confirmation where there is none.

Elaboration: Mordremoth had not been confirmed to be the entity. It is not necessarily so that waking Mordremoth was the sole end goal of Scarlet. And the assumptions folks have made that the entity is Mordremoth and that waking him was her sole endgame goal doesn’t mix with older statements like the one from the Flame Legion Prisoner. That I believe people are overlooking facts just because they want the Mordremoth-sylvari connection.

The rest, which seems to have taken the main focus, was just side notes.

That was the main point I was trying to make. Things may still be simple… But you still need to look at all evidence to land at the right conclusion.

And thinking more on the topic, here is another curiosity that hints, when combined with the probe maps on the Breachmaker, to Scarlet’s endgame not being Mordremoth:

She knew she’d be attacking Lion’s Arch since Dragon Bash at least – her hologram recording mentioned putting Mai Grin to weaken LA from within… So why pit probes even in Orr and Ascalon?

To add onto my theory: she was looking for ley lines other than LA, more intersections to disrupt, and those near LA was to pinpoint exactly where to drill.

DarcShriek.5829:

I think the triad works against the theory that the inquest are in charge of the bandits. If the inquest were in charge of the bandits, the a triad wouldn’t be necessary. Only the NC and the inquest would need to be represented.

I never said the Inquest are in charge of the bandits.

DarcShriek.5829:

There is no evidence of the Mursaat existing on Tyria for 250 years.

Simply because the last one hid. There is, however, a hint in the later personal story that they’ll return:

Scholar Yissa: “It is indeed. The Mursaat, or Unseen Ones, keep reappearing after they’ve been reported gone. Some think them gods, but I mean to establish who they truly were…or are.”

And later as if to cement this hint:

Scholar Yissa: “The mursaat, also called the Unseen Ones, were a race of powerful spellcasters. They have not been seen for centuries, and I think they are now extinct.”

DarcShriek.5829:

One thing that strikes me as odd about the inquest though is that they allowed Scarlet anywhere near their thaumanova reactor.

Indeed that is odd! Which to me implies a continued use of Scarlet, as if they had some form of influence on her.

DarcShriek.5829:

Let me see If I’ve got the right Konig. You’re telling us that there’s no way the elder dragons would know about modern technology, and then in the very next post you tell us that the inquest are searching for lost Mursaat knowledge.

Your story is fun, but it doesn’t hold up. Try again when you have a story that makes sense.

Mursaat had ancient MAGIC not technology. And it’s not the same as modern magic – let alone magitech or technology – either. The magic the inquest were searching for was the ability to phase out of existence, which we experience at the end of the dungeon path – what allowed the mursaat to escape the Elder Dragons.

Anyways, I have to go so I’ll cover the rest later.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i’ll just say this: reading your theories (or counter-theories) to disprove something always makes you sound like the most obnoxious of prosecutors on an ace attorney game. just when everyone is happy and thinking “welp, it’s pretty settled. it’s not of ANet to make things overly convoluted anyway, so it’s pretty obvious what happened”, you show up and go:

“EVIDENCE IS EVERYTHING!”

I’m not sure to take this indifferently or as an insult. So I’ll be indifferent.

My point to this though is that people have a large tendency to overlook things – even if they’re put right in our face multiple times (see Scarlet’s fascination with Caithe, and Taimi’s multiple mentions of multiple dragons).

I try to make sure people don’t overlook things and don’t assume things, because then we have folks making presumptions on lore as fact and then what happens if they turn out wrong? They’ll scream bloody murder on the lore. Like all that’s happened with Scarlet – though that’s on Anet for not keeping the lore updated on krait, as we were all led to believe that the blog post was modern but it was “before being pushed out” apparently, with no real indication of such.

DarcShriek.5829:

You ask how something that’s been sleeping for 10,000 years know about modern technology. Well, first, whenever I enter the straits of desolation, I can’t help but notice that the concept art has a certain modernness to it.

A good deal of concept art are modifications of pictures – like the Hoelbrak loading screen or the Frostgorge Sound loading screen.

Besides that, it’s concept art which has absolutely zero basis on canon lore.

DarcShriek.5829:

Second, we know that the elder races had knowledge that has since been lost to us. The Jotun, make that clear. Also, while elder dragons have been sleeping, we know for a fact that their champions haven’t been. Glint has been awake, it’s not unreasonable that others have also.

The ancient races did not have technology. They had magic. Even the jotun’s stuff seems to have been more magic than technology, and they’re the known closest to magitech there was – Giganticus Lupicus may be an exception, but even then, their technology would be nothing like modern technology.

Also, Glint rebelled – seemingly before Kralkatorrik went to sleep the last time since Kralk hunted her down immediately – so she’s far from a standard case for “leaving an dragon champion awake”.

DarcShriek.5829:

Also, anything that has the ability to take the mind of a victim, would easily be able to gain the victims knowledge. So knowledge of modern technology doesn’t seem unreasonable.

Yet no two Elder Dragon corrupt in the same fashion. And Jormag does the mental stuff.

DarcShriek.5829:

Now on to your statement that the Mursaat are in charge of the bandits. What do you cite as evidence. The current evidence points to Caudecus as being in charge of the bandits. Is there any evidence that the mursaat still exist? Not that I’m aware of. The white mantle insignia can easily be explained by the mursaatless white mantle becoming bandits 250 years ago to survive and the insignia being use out of tradition.

Lazarus was never killed, and he was presented for the purpose of a future story. As for mursaat being in charge of bandits – it’s a logical deduction. In the human orphaned storyline we learn that the White Mantle are behind (most) bandits. Yes, Caudecus is too – which is the heaviest evidence to point Caudecus as White Mantle. And again, we have a MIA mursaat, bandits in the last known place of the White Mantle (Fort Vandal is just next to Aurora Glade), and a known connection between White Mantle and bandits.

No, it is not confirmed, but that’s why it is a theory. And it certainly isn’t one without evidence like you claim.

DarcShriek.5829:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

DarcShriek.5829:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Why would the completely failed Marionette grab the Pact’s attention if the Tower of Nightmares, which was far more destructive, did not?

Not sure I follow you on the Marionette. How did it fail? What was it supposed to accomplish that it didn’t?

I just meant that it was destroyed.

I seem to remember a lot of people dying due to what you call a failed weapon.

Then you don’t seem to remember the livestream with Angel McCoy in which she stated that though the event was repeated in the open world (interpretation: to avoid the lagfest mess of the Ancient Karka during The Lost Shores), lore-wise, it happened once and it was defeated that one time.