Guild Wars 2

It’s modeled off of the Warrior asuran armor from Eye of the North. Most of the armor in Eye of the North – particularly asuran, vanguard, and dwarven – were reskinned combinations of previous armors; the asuran armor for warriors was practically a full reskin of the elite Kurzick armor.

So one can say it’s a continuation of the EN armor, not the Factions armor. There were other similarities – some of the norn cultural weapons resemble their GW1 counterparts, for example.

CHIPS.6018:

But it is hard to tell though. A person in pirate suite in the game doesn’t mean that person is actually a pirate.

My human character can put on a pirate suit today and he is a pirate. If he put on a bandit suit he is a bandit. If he put on a Separatist suit he is a Separatist. etc etc.

The way I see it all these pirates were (knowingly or unknowingly) hired by Caudecus to kidnap Demmi, to sell her story to the Order of Whispers. So was Landon and his men.

I am indeed speculating. But that’s what Machiavellian should do. These leaders would speculate about who can betray them, what can do wrong and plan for the worst.

An outfit doesn’t make a faction. Ideals, motives, and actions do.

The Jackdaws weren’t hired by Caudecus to kidnap Demmi. If they were, they wouldn’t have been ransoming her to Landon – and if they were doing a double-cross then their letter would have made mention of such. Furthermore, the Jackdaws would know Caudecus wouldn’t care because Landon was given the order of taking back alive or dead.

In a more broad note on the topic – you seem to be taking the Machiavelli viewpoint as “the best for politicians” when that’s what folks tend to call a tyrant.

Fluffball.8307:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Caudecus is a very cautious kitten – as far as I know, Logan and Anise had zero evidence on him, let alone three. And even if they did have three, his influence would likely bring the trial in his favor, thus the evidence would get tossed out should he be proven not guilty.

Do we need any evidence at all? Trial by Combat.

Or does only the accused have the right to suggest that? Caudy probably wouldn’t be stupid enough to suggest challenging the PC now that we have a reputation for killing anything and everything, and a few other things just because we felt like it.

You need to have 3 pieces of evidence to even bring someone to trial. In the trial, a trial by combat can be called by the defendant (unknown if prosecutor can call trial by combat), and the residing judge (in most cases the Legate Minister but obviously not in this case) would have to accept such call – or so the noble storyline shows us.

She was the dues ex explains-the-ley-lines figure needed to explain Scarlet’s goals.

She’s not partaking in Battle for Lion’s Arch because, well, she’s a kid. To those who said that she partook in Marionette – that was because no one was preventing her (she ran away from the authorities technically). She’s since latched onto Braham as a big brother figure and Braham told her to stay in the camp, so she stayed – as Braham explained in Escape from LA if you bothered to talk to him while in LA.

Besides, on that already weakened and small body, she wouldn’t last long against the miasma – which wasn’t prevalent with the marionette or Edge of the Mists stuff.

DaShi.1368:

Again, this is not the way you presented it. The rest of that post, you went on a long rant clearly dismissing “all along” possibility while promoting an unsupported “hopped on” theory. Your point may have allowed for multiple interpretations, but you clearly (and wrongly) excluded the “all along” one.

Yes, it actually is how I presented it – just not the part of the post you were quoting then and there. I quote myself, same post, underlining for emphasis:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Never said it was wrong. Rather, I would argue you’re taking a mile when a foot is given – so to speak. Though that’s probably a bad metaphor, so let me be more clear cut:

You’re taking something small to be bigger than it actually is.

Vorpp says this:

“Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought. I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection? We’d need to do far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream before I could draw any more-detailed conclusions.”

So in short, what he says is this:

• The Entity was with Scarlet when she entered the machine.
• Scarlet lost some sort of psychological protection (thus she became insane – this was stated by Scott McGough back in August and likely has little to do with their protection against dragon corruption – this is purely talking about her mental state)
• He theorizes that the Dream is related, but won’t say anything definitive.

From this, people are saying “Mordremoth was always with her, proof that sylvari were born dragon minions!” but that’s not what Vorpp is saying. All Vorpp is saying is at that specific time, Mordremoth’s influence was already tied to Scarlet in some ways, and that he theorizes that the Dream is involved.

Now, onto you saying “Do you really mean that in that particular story istance, of ALL the correct answers, the one Vorpp gives is the only one that is wrong?”

Ever heard of a red herring? ArenaNet has used them before, it wouldn’t be a shocker if they did this again. Nor would it be a shocker if they decided to say “it was Vorpp’s semi-educated guess, and not concrete proof” no different than them saying the History of Tyria was human legends and not the actual history of the world.

I explicitly stated, multiple times, that people are taking what confirms little to confirm a lot in a specific direction, that all we actually learn is a very little bit – I presented the red herring argument in response to being accused of saying Vorpp’s wrong, which was an incorrect accusation (as I pointed out in my very first sentence in response) but extrapolated in saying that, yes, he could very well be wrong nonetheless.

Now, either you didn’t read my post in full, you’re trying to skew my words, or you’re misinterpreting what I said (which in turn, makes me think you’re not reading my posts in full).

DaShi.1368:

Calling something a red-herring is not offering an alternative. It’s insulting to him that you would treat his interpretation so, and insulting to me that you think I would fall for the “it’s just my interpretation” excuse. You are not presenting any alternative interpretation other than saying “you’re wrong!” with no supporting evidence.

See above; I stated the minimum explanation of Vorpp’s wording, I got accused of claiming Vorpp’s wrong, I explained I wasn’t stating such and stated the bare minimum we have confirmed, and then took his accusation on me and turning it to actually be possible. I was not insulting him, more so since I never actually stated Vorpp was a red herring, but said it’s a possibility. Again, you seem to be – intentionally or not – skewing my words.

Though I admit, I should have been a bit clearer. My actual alternative explanation came after explaining that I was not claiming Vorpp was wrong and then stating that it very well is possible that he is (which in of itself is an alternative explanation) – in which I stated:

To question one: simple, if it was added somepoint between “the beginning” and it being “released.”

I never once stated “you’re wrong” – in any form of wording – to arlowix nor Aethelbert (whom I was responding to in the post of question) when it came to the interpretation of Vorpp’s words.

And it is, in fact, insulting to me that you continuously claim such by quoting merely portions of my post and not the full, as you are taking statements out of context. Of course, if anyone were to bother to look back – as you should have, and I presume, did – then they would be capable of seeing the full post in all its original “glory” and thus be able to see that I did not call Vorpp a red herring as a fact, but said that it is possible.

DaShi.1368:

Yes, but you have used that point (incorrectly) as a hammer to crush other people’s theories. If you truly believed that it is so far from full-proof, it would not be used in such a way. If there is other, better evidence use that, because the CoE argument is a dead-end atm.

I’m seriously believing you’re not reading my full posts.

“Alone, it is far from full-proof,”

DaShi.1368:

You frequently cite CoE to demonstrate that minions can have multiple corruptions. Yet for that point you said that corruptions are complete and there can be no mid-way. You want to have your cake and eat it too.

You seem to presume that you cannot be fully Risen and fully Branded at the same time. Why could you not be? “Risen” simply means “dragon minion of/corrupted by Zhaitan” – Branded simply means “dragon minion of/corrupted by Kralkatorrik” – so can you not be corrupted by both? Can you not be a dragon minion of both? CoE shows that, yes, you can. Therefore, those creatures – such as Subject Alpha – were fully corrupted by multiple dragons’ energies.

DaShi.1368:

But, like CoE, you use that statement to crush any theories of corruption that go beyond those points. While you are trying to sound reasonable here, you were not when you used these as counterpoints.

In conjunction with the other pieces of evidence. Never alone.

DaShi.1368:

First, thank you for the additional information. Second, my point was that there are methods of corruption used by the dragons that differ the other dragons. This lends some credence to the Sylvari being possible minions.

Actually, it doesn’t support the theory, because the question of conflict doesn’t derive from “how they are corrupted” but “their (in)ability to be corrupted” as well as their mental states.

CHIPS.6018:

Think about it. Demmi suddenly decided to offer her services to the Order of Whispers. And she was found captured by pirates (when many bandits/pirates works for her father in the first place). And then her father only send a few guards to chase her down.

Pirates don’t work for Caudecus. Only bandits. And bandits != pirates.

Though they may act the same, and one can call pirates bandits of the seas and vice versa, while traditionally true in the GW2 case it is not. This is the issue with Anet using general terms for the bandits rather than calling them a united faction with a name – but that’s kind of the point behind the bandits’ lore; to everyone other than those who look into it, they appear as just a large number of individual groups of bandits and gangs.

DaShi.1368:

That’s a very narrow interpretation. It could very well have been with her all along. There is no evidence that something “hopped on” to Scarlet just before she entered the machine. In fact, Vorpp believes that it is something that was walled off in Scarlet’s mind and is related to the Dream. This seems like something that was with Scarlet (and other Sylvari) for some time. Until evidence arises saying when Mordremoth or whatever it was entered Scarlet’s mind, it is reasonable to assume that it was with her anytime from then to her birth.

You’re missing the point.

Yes, it could very well been with her all along. But people are taking it as a fact that it was.

No, there is no evidence that it “hopped on”, but similarly there’s no evidence that it was with her all along.

My point was that there’s multiple interpretations to it, not that my example is the case. All that’s a fact is that “it was with her when she entered the machine” – there is no evidence in any direction for when it became ‘with her.’

DaShi.1368:

This is the very cherry-picking you are accusing arlowix of. It’s unfair to dismiss arguments in this way.

I wasn’t dismissing. I was offering alternatives.

Again, this boils down to how everyone’s treating their interpretation of the past couple updates as the only interpretation – as if they are fact. I am here, have been here, presenting alternative interpretations. Yes, interpretations that goes against theirs and for mine, but even if I were for their theory I would play the devil’s advocate and bring these very same interpretations up regardless, just to show they exist – that their interpretation is not the only one.

DaShi.1368:

Jormag or Kralkatorrik have a very distinct way of corrupting land. Other than creating minions from rocks and lava, Primordus doesn’t corrupt land in anyway similar to Jormag or Kralkatorrik. Zhaitan corrupts environments with something similar to miasma, but the land itself is unchanged. Zhaitan also doesn’t corrupt living things. They need to die first. In addition, you are asking him to prove a negative, which is impossible.

Again, I never argued they corrupted in the same way. In fact, if you looked at the whole of my posts, you’d note that I stated otherwise.

This said, Zhaitan does corrupt living beings – albeit indirectly (not just Kellach, but in Sparkfly Fen too – there’s at least one heart in which it is mentioned the wildlife (basilisks, flies, etc.) will eat risen corpses and become infected with the corruption themselves, and they pass it onto the plants in the area). Which goes to my point – all Elder Dragons can corrupt flesh and land. They just, for reasons unknown to us, do not do so equally or in the same fashion.

DaShi.1368:

But theories themselves are not facts.

Which has been my entire point whenever I come across this theory, because that’s how people present it more often than not.

DaShi.1368:

CoE is a unique situation. The subjects there were experimented on. If we saw something corrupted by two or more dragons naturally, then you’d have a stronger argument that Sylvari can’t be minions because they can’t be corrupted. CoE tells us that it is possible, but not the circumstances under which it could happen. Under the right circumstances, Sylvari might be corrupted by other dragons.

Bold was my argument in that point. Alone, it is far from full-proof, but one point of evidence is never enough to utterly settle a wide-spread discussion.

DaShi.1368:

However, I disagree on the “partial corruption” – no dragon minion thus far can be “partially” corrupted. You either are, or you aren’t. There is no mid-way in this topic.

There would have to be for the CoE argument to hold. A doubly corrupted individual can’t be a complete servant of both Jormag and Primodus. And someone else mentioned Kellach.

I fail to see how CoE becomes a requirement for there to be no mid-way.

DaShi.1368:

Beyond those 3, there are differences. Jormag and Kralkatorrik corrupt environments. We’ve seen no sign of this from the other dragons. Primordus turns rocks into minions and, interestingly, his minions can product eggs. Also, none of his minions can communicate with non-minions. It’s quite possible that Mordremoth and Bubbles could have some unique characteristics to their minions that differ significantly from the other dragons.

Please re-read my points. I explicitly stated that those are the similarities shared amongst all, and I explicitly stated – in multiple posts – that there are also differences. But per Jeff Grubb’s own words, there are similarities across all Elder Dragons, and those three points are shown as the only similarities – and all equally so – amongst the Elder Dragons we have reliable evidence of in those points.

I would like to correct you on something. While called “eggs”, they are only so in purpose – that is, being incubation pods for destroyers. Destroyers do not get pregnant, as we see in that same storyline that we get not just destroyer crablings, but full grown destroyer crabs and destroyer trolls as well. These “destroyer eggs” function no differently than the ice crystals in the Claw of Jormag event chain, or the Strange Crystal – both of which ‘spawn’ dragon minions from within.

What made the destroyer eggs so unique is that they seem to form the destroyers (as well as being brand new tactics for Primordus) within the “eggs” which made it seem like they were more traditional eggs, thus the theorizing by the mentor that it could be either a pregnant creature that was corrupted – something new to Primordus but not other Elder Dragons – or made by a new type of dragon champion – which is also something new for Primordus. Either way meant Primordus changed tactics, and that’s why it was so astonishing for the mentors.

I don’t think it was ever clarified why Droknar’s sunk. Though Mount Maelstrom did defrost the area. I can’t really picturing it being enough to sink Droknar’s… though perhaps a landslide? Nah, that wouldn’t work – Droknar’s layout remains unchanged (mostly at least).

You can easily make out where the Xunlai agents were in GW1 in the ruins of Droknar. And I think the crafter area too. Port Sledge is now that sylvari camp south of where the Inquest Golem Mk II world boss shows up. The Infinite Coil Reactor is actually just north by northeast of where Droknar’s was.

Lesser Giant’s Basin would be Lake Gendar and Guardian Lake, I believe.

CHIPS.6018:

-And hence, Queen Jennah wasn’t a Machiavellian when she was younger. Of course age isn’t really an excuse, as there were plenty of Machiavellian teenagers in history. But that’s beside the point.

They make it sound like she wasn’t even a teenage, that she had no power. It isn’t a case of a teenager going “my father died, I call the shots now!” but more seemingly a, idk, 12 year old perhaps? Maybe younger? losing her father and all the grown ups outright refusing to let a child on the throne (and rightfully so, since a child couldn’t rule a nation). She was crowned 10 years ago, but that isn’t when her father died.

CHIPS.6018:

If Queen Jennah still isn’t a Machiavellian by now, or at least knows how to defend herself against one, she will be destroyed by Caudecus. Because Caudecus is clearly Machiavellian, and he will eventually win this Game of Thrones. Perhaps Logan and us do good heroes will be able to clean up her mess and save her at the end. But that would be lame, boring and predictable.

There’s a pretty huge difference between being a Machiavellian and being smart. Even then, being Machiavellian does not necessitate being smart. Politics is a battle of brain and subterfuge, not evil deeds.

CHIPS.6018:

-Ruling by fear doesn’t directly mean evil. The leader (Queen Jennah) may have very noble goals. But unless she can suppress, fear and control her enemies, she will eventually face her own demise.

Doesn’t need to be evil. Suppression is what leads to revolts, done for the better or the worse. This is why dystopias are viewed as “bad” even if they really aren’t.

CHIPS.6018:

-Of course at the end it will be some un-linkable guy that do the dirty work, so it cannot be traced back to Queen Jennah. However Queen Jennah will not directly ask the un-linkable guy. Instead she will ask Anise to do it.

E.g.
Queen Jennah: Anise, I believe that Caudecus need to be removed, permanently.
Anise: Yes my queen.

That’s it. The Queen has given his order. Anise will see it though. Caudecus will be found to have hung himself or died of a mysterious disease or died during a robbery. The Queen doesn’t need to plan every single details out. Her underlings will get it done.

It is still more complicated than this, y’know…

DarcShriek.5829:

It’s not enough for just Caudecus to die. He must also be discredited, shown to be a traitor. Also, his wife and children must also die.

His wife is dead. His daughter is working for the Order of Whispers, supposedly having given them dirt on his actions.

Dirt we never learned what it was.

I only mentioned it because you said, and I quote, “writing personal stories.”

I would have linked gw2rp like Aaron did, but he beat me to it, and I felt that directing you there could be helpful if you’re wanting to “[write] personal stories.”

There is roleplaying, by the way, it’s just that ArenaNet does not official separate roleplaying from the rest of the game. There is no official roleplaying server or forum, so players made one. Don’t know why they decided such, but Tarnished Coast and Piken Square (whether you’re NA or EU) are the unofficial roleplaying server. And if you followed the link Aaron gave, you’d see it’s pretty extensive.

DarcShriek.5829:

If the dragons have been the winners, then where have they been for the last 10000 years.
If the sylvari didn’t exist, then neither would the seeds. Seeds that someone considered important enough to guard.

The Elder Dragons consume too much magic to remain constantly awake, so even if they do seemingly fully wipe the planet out like Glint says in Edge of Destiny, page 339, they wouldn’t remain active. That’s the thing about them – they live in cycles. A lot of people compare them to the Reapers of Mass Effect, but I prefer the description of the Thorian: “hibernating for thousands of long years, awake for a few frantic centuries”. Win or lose, this is what happens to the Elder Dragons.

The last time, you can consider it a bit of a stalemate – all but five sapient races were wiped out, but the Elder Dragons were forced into hibernation prematurely.

DarcShriek.5829:

Please leave your personal politics out of this conversation. They have no place here.

Tell that to the ones bringing it up.

DarcShriek.5829:

Actually, proximity has some bearing on the case of Svanir. It wasn’t Jormag that corrupted Svanir, it was Drakkar. Drakkar was only able to corrupt Svanir when he was at the lake. Therefore, in the case of Svanir, proximity does matter.

I don’t see where it matters in Scarlet’s case though. But we don’t really know if the corrupter was Mordremoth or someone in his command.

The bold – both of them – was my point, actually.

DarcShriek.5829:

It’s funny how Kellach tried to kill Queen Jenna to cure his corruption,…hey wait a minute I thought corrupted people didn’t have free will. Kellach was trying to find a cure for his corruption. That means that at least for a short time, corrupted individuals do have free will.

He’s an odd and unique case to begin with, as he was corrupted indirectly via an object from Orr. However, given that risen were following him around, he is easily considered a champion – and they do seem to have a degree of self-decision in their actions.

I suppose one can say that Kellach was extremely strong willed. But this does bring in an interesting thin to consider since he was actively looking for a cure to what plagued him.

Honestly, DaShi, if people stopped stating their theories as if a fact, and made new threads consistently on it, I doubt I’d be upset over it.

Though my anger isn’t so much at the posters nor the theory (perhaps the consistency of the repetition of it being brought up), but what it’d do to the story.

As to it not being debunked to others’ satisfaction… well, I find that people will choose to disbelieve facts even presented in their face – and for the record, I’m not talking specifically about this case, but in general. Try talking to a hardcore republican about how good a democratic senator is, even provide facts for what the senator has done. Chances are, the republican wouldn’t give an opossum’s kitten and think that all democrates are ruining the nation.

To me, the same situation is why people like Darc are so seemingly vehemently denying that the theory is anything but a fact.

If I am “sucking all the fun” out of lore discussions because I’m trying to remind people of what’s fact and what isn’t fact, then sorry. Guess no one will be happy unless I were to pack bags and leave? Very well then. Perhaps, just perhaps, I shall given how this is far from the first time kitten like this came up, even when I am playing nice (then again, if I weren’t, there wouldn’t really be room for much discussion and at such a point I very may would be bullying and destroying the fun of it all).

CHIPS.6018:

Well a true Machiavellian would never even let Caudecus to climb so high to cause a threat in the first place. But what’s done is done. Now she have to deal with the aftermath. A Machiavellian have many ways to get rid of Caudecus.

Jennah didn’t let Caudecus rise to power either.

After Jennah’s father’s death, the Ministry was put in charge for a time because Jennah was too young to rule. During this time, the Ministers were given a lot more power than they normally had, and this likely includes Caudecus. Since then, even with Jennah being crowned, they didn’t want to give up the power they got so they’re fighting to deminitize Jennah as an incompetant ruler – this is stated if you talk to Logan during the final Dead Sister step. He also explains the origins of the Ministry Guard – private guards hired because the Seraph were spread too thin, and they’ve since dug a niche for themselves, becoming a united group.

CHIPS.6018:

These is a saying: “Kill one man to set an example and warning to hundreds.” And this my friend is fear.

And this, after a time and with a brave enough fool, leads to an uprising. In the end, this is the cycle of leaderships throughout history and civilization – form of government is made; form of government becomes corrupt; form of government is brought down in rebellion/reformation; rebellion/reformation makes new government; new government becomes corrupt; etc.

CHIPS.6018:

None of these dirty work need to be done by Queen Jennah herself. That’s what henchmen like Arise are for; they do the dirty work so the Queen can keep her hands clean.

You don’t get how politics work, do you? Or at least, the undersided part of it. If her top ranking underling – or in fact, anyone in the Shining Blade – were to do dirty deeds, then since the Shining Blade answers only to the throne and only do the throne’s duties, well… What the Shining Blade did is effectively “What Jennah did”. Even outside of the Shining Blade, if it was someone who’s tied to her, it could easily be pointed by others – backed or not – that Jennah ordered the action. This is why even gang leaders have to keep tight leashes on their underlings – because their actions trace back to the leaders, regardless of whether the leader did it, or ordered it.

By stating a hypothesis that’s consistently presented as fact (perhaps because of how commonplace it is) has no solid support?

I may use syntax and vocab which makes it sound like I am extremely hostile, I have been – without intent – called an outright egotistical kitten. But I am not bullying people; I hate the theory, true, because it has been effectively debunked and all of its original reasons for being plausible having been disproven as support (not to mention how I view it would utterly kill the sylvari race by making a race that is already so much a special snowflake into an even bigger one – oddly, something that a lot of people complain about, yet at the same time want this theory – and would also end up redacting a huge amount of ArenaNet’s statements of their design philosophies – and in turn, kill the game for me; call it selfish if you want, to not want a theory to be true for such a reason, but if it is selfish then fine I am selfikittenhere’s nothing wrong with selfishness now and then, especially when it comes to your hopes for a story that had captivated you for 7 years when a good story seldom captivates you for a couple months otherwise). But I would hardly call this “bullying people”. After all, do I call people idiots? Do I insult them? NO! I may act hostile, or better description would be angry (sorry, I have anger management issues – tis a kitten when combined with my chronic depression), but I am not insulting let alone bullying!

Being someone who was bullied as a kid – one amongst thousands sadly – I actually go out of my way to ensure I am not intrusive on people as much as I can. Perhaps the forums is one of the few places I may not do so.

But whatever, I shouldn’t need to defend myself to others.

I’m sure that even if I didn’t touch this subject with a 100 foot pole, people would still hate and insult me just as you and kta seem to do, and just had done. After all, I know people who have reported me and flew off their handle for me correcting – with sources – their misknowledge on the lore.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Addition to Ascalon: The city was leveled from charr cauldrons in the hope to defeat the ghosts that way (don’t know when it happened, but it’s in the lore).

Erm… The Searing – when the cauldrons were used – was 10 years before the Foefire, and though it did do some building leveling, supposedly Ascalon City was rebuilt (to a variable degree) since then..

Dustfinger.9510:

Depending on how fast Orr rose and what shapes broke the surface, it may have caused a mega tsunami effect. Which is basically a cone shaped water attack built from disturbing a much smaller mass of water at the point of “casting”.

Even with a slow ascension, debris could have fallen off into the water causing a mega-tsunami. This would explain both a flooding and directional damage.

…..actually, a regular tsunami would also explain it without the land slide needed from a mega-tsunami. The shift at the ocean can also cause large scale flooding in a directional path.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megatsunami

Sea of Sorrows details an incredibly large tsunami at the point of origin.

This isn’t a case of physics, but rather “redesigning.”

Like how jungle trolls looked like this in GW1 but suddenly they are this in GW2.

This said, you got some facts wrong:

• Southsun Cove did not exist in any way shape or form in GW1. Sanctum Cay was where the Dominion of Winds is now. Southsun Cove is a newly-formed volcanic island. Though Pearl Inlet could be D’Alessio Arena island I think.
• Wizard’s Tower was moved. This is a canon lore statement – Isgarren went and moved it to where it is now from where it was. Being a floating castle in the sky… it can move! However, it is not sitting where Temple of Tolerance was – that temple would be in the unexplorable area to the east of Garrenhoff. Garrenhoff – and thus where the Wizard’s Tower is now – would be the small village we found Dinas in during the D’Alessio Seaboard mission (just west of Temple of Tolerance).
• Temple of Tolerance was on a hill, yes… but on a hill, in a swamp. It was basically a divit area of Kryta – all around the Temple of Ages was lowered lands, and the Temple of the Ages wasn’t really much higher than the swamp surrounding it. The statues just sunk into the lower lands (or perhaps a sinkhole occurred – which, gasp, is physics).
• Ascalon City is actually spot on with GW1, and the book described it pretty accurately – keep in mind that the whole city more or less got leveled by the necromantic golem. And we don’t see the full city in-game – only the southern half of it (the other half should be in Iron Marches but it gets stuck in the “area between the maps”). Also keep in mind that, lorewise, the landscapes are much bigger than we saw in either game – but the books describe the landscapes as it accurately is.

In regards to his statements on the gods, magic being taken, fall of jotun society, and humanity’s upbringing?

No. His words contradict both older and newer lore. There may be some truth to his words, but his words are the only source for that side and contradicted by dozens others.

The only possible truth he holds is the history of the norn, the chaotic nature of magic during the previous rise, and the Age of Giants. But even that’s flimsy at best given he’s contradicted on half the other things – even by his ancestor Elder Thruln who gives a different tale to the jotun’s fall (a tale that matches the Priory’s mentions in Dredgehaunt as well as the old lore blog post on jotun).

This is exactly what I meant by “the case until argued otherwise” – but with it being 1 against dozens (even NPC’s first-hand accounting), the “argued otherwise” part fails in this case. If I would argue Thruln to be right, my argument would be “whatever’s newest is the case” – which there are folks who argue that, sadly.

A better example of what I meant by that would be sylvari corruption – we were originally told sylvari are immune to dragon corruption with specific mentions of it being impossible for sylvari to become risen and branded; Scarlet provides a counter-argument to the general-ness of the statement, and opens doors for “there’s something that can be removed which prevents corruption.”

DarcShriek.5829:

As the sylvari appear to have wiped from historical memory, it is reasonable to consider that Sylvari may have fought on the losing side. They may have been dragon minions in the past.

This is contradictory.

The dragons have always been the winner. So if they fought on the losing side, they would have fought dragon minions and be wiped out by them – hence the lack of records, as dragon minions don’t write.

Also, did you ever consider the possibility that they’re not mentioned in historical records because they didn’t exist in history?

If you just want to write fan-fiction, there’s the fan-generated content forum.

Heraldusluminare.2946:

Although, Trahearne describes The Dream as being “made of memory, aether, and powerful magic”, so I think it’s more of a metaphysical (as you mentioned) location/dimension than the Mists.

One can argue that’s a proper description for the Mists, as it too is a metaphysical location that copies memories (rather, past events), though instead of aether it’d be protomatter.

MRA.4758:

Yes, but that’s what progress is usually about. And it’s actually quite similar to developments that happened on Earth (see Age of Enlightenment). This transition is a part of the lore development that I like pretty much.

But there’s a huge difference to be made here:

Humanity in Tyria actually interacted with their gods. And recorded it even at those times, having long had a writing system in place by those times.

MRA.4758:

However, what really bugs me (from my outside observer perspective) is that so many times people are arguing about lore using arguments like “no, you are wrong, we already know X because Y said so” or “this cannot be since it was written in text Z…” This is potentially fallible argumentation, and people should just stop doing this. When you study history or lore, you have to question every of your sources. They might be mistaken, they might be lying. They are influenced by the mindset of their epoch and their culture. And they are always just reporting it how they remember it, not how it has happened. The best you can get from these sources are more or less reliable hints or indicators in one or another direction, but you can never be sure, and cannot take them as facts. (Maybe the only thing that I understand as to be taken for granted is what the player character experiences first-hand. But even then, in this fictional environment, it might be an illusion, influence of drugs, a Quaggan conspiracy, or whatever.)

I think you greatly misunderstand the arguments.

The argument that you’re seeing is not “this NPC says it, therefore it must be true” but rather “only this NPC talks about it, so until we have something to argue otherwise, it should be taken as truth.”

The thing is, you’re right in that every source could be wrong – though ArenaNet has a point of never altering what we saw first hand since our characters would be knowledgeable enough (being these grand god or Elder Dragon slaying heroes) to see that something or another is an illusion. But the issue is… if we question one source that is not even hinted to be contradicted by something else, then we can argue nothing is solid. By which point, we would have no lore, and we might as well be explaining how it’s possible for the giant shining sun in the sky to actually be the illegitimate butt-child of the homosexual relationship between Grenth and Koda.

So we HAVE to take what’s unhinted to be contradicted as “fact until otherwise disproven” otherwise we would have no basis for lore, theorycrafting, or anything.

The Elder Dragons are flees on a dog’s back, the dog’s name is Tyria!
The Six Gods are all scientists that came from the planet Earth!
Zojja is the lovechild of Eir and Rytlock!

Etc.

Exaggerated statements, but by your argument of questioning all sources, because they “might be wrong” then we’d get things like that.

We know it’s not exclusive to sylvari of the Pale Tree.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/White_Stag
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Waterfall

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

… sadly, ArenaNet has been making it an active task of theirs to reduce the gods and their capabilities.

Arenanet didn’t. A lot of NPC in Tyria are telling that they are loosing or lost their connection to their deities. Those who didn’t loose it have a weaker connection. Coincidence?

I wasn’t talking about NPC’s connections to the gods.

In GW1, the lore was that the gods created humanity, and worlds, magic itself, created the bloodstones, and were pretty much general kittenes.

In GW2, we find out that their biggest achievements were lies. They didn’t create humanity, they just brought them to the world; they created nothing; they strengthened magic… via Zhaitan; the seers made the Bloodstone; etc. etc.

Perhaps I over-exaggerate, but the gods HAVE been downplayed in their actions in GW1 by said actions being re-attributed to others. And this is blatantly stated by ArenaNet even, that the gods are being downsized. They basically said “we don’t know how to turn human-centric lore to being multiracial, so we’ll just make them false information.”

The Dream is a location – like the Mists. The Eternal Alchemy is a concept – like Darwinism. Therefore, they cannot be the same thing, as one is physical (or rather, metaphysical), and the other is abstract. This is furthered pointed out by Scott McGough back in August stating that Scarlet believed she saw the Eternal Alchemy… but she might not have. http://wartower.tumblr.com/post/60458277036/this-lorespecial-is-about-scarlet-briar-the-evil This is also why Vorpp calls kitten on Scarlet’s claim to have seen the Eternal Alchemy – because it isn’t something that can be seen, as it is a concept, an idea, or more accurately, a system that envelopes all of reality – to “see the Eternal Alchemy” is to “know all things that was, is, and ever will be, and how they interact with each other, and what their each individual value in existence is”. Basically, to see the Eternal Alchemy is to witness and understand the Mists in its entirety (my interpretation). This would expand far beyond just the Dream of Dreams.

The Elder Dragons and the Gods’ nature are not related. The Elder Dragons had multiple cycles occur before the Six Gods first stepped foot on the world of Tyria. As Jeff Grubb said a long while back the gods are older than humanity but not by much – and we know that humanity… isn’t that old in the long run (they’re younger than the previous dragon rise). http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/02/guild-wars-2-interview/

On your “spoiler boxes” (it should start with [ spoiler ] without the spaces), given what Vorpp said Ceara never went “outside of Tyria” so the Pale Tree’s consciousness wouldn’t be “outside of Tyria” either (unless you consider the Dream outside of Tyria, which sylvari and the Pale Tree seem to, but given that the White Stag shares this attribute with the Pale Tree, it doesn’t make her on par to deities).

On “why would Melandru allow that to happen” – sadly, ArenaNet has been making it an active task of theirs to reduce the gods and their capabilities.

Stooperdale.3560:

In my opinion, all the alliances are badly explained and have no reason to continue. If you give the dredge fancy guns then yes they will like that but not enough to send all their people to their death in Scarlet’s armies.

Only factions of each group remained in her alliances. The dredge were never unified in allying with Scarlet – nor were the Flame Legion or Nightmare Court. It seems only the krait were, at first, fully united behind Scarlet but even that’s not fully clear – and after the Tower of Nightmares fell, they certainly weren’t united.

Scarlet made as much of a link to Mordremoth for the sylvari as Svanir made a link between norn and Jormag, or rather, as much as a link as Korag did between jotun and Jormag.

Aethelbert.1497:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Everything the Elder Dragons’ “personalities” show results in hostility. Intelligence and curiosity… don’t.

Inquest is strongly disagree with your statement.
What I mean is intelligence and curiosity can be much dangerous without morals. You argue just to argue, I got it.

I hadn’t considered Inquest, so good point there. Still, compared to “lies” and “power to overcome the weak” and obtaining all things (Kralkatorrik) or genocide (Primordus, seemingly) – intelligence and curiosity feel… tame.

Aethelbert.1497:

You are obsessed with red herrings and conspiracy. I think you need to relax and take a deep breath. And stop make me laughing, most importantly.

How am I obsessed with red herrings and conspiracy? Hah! The ones obsessed with conspiracy are those saying sylvari are dragon minions! That’s one hell of a tinfoil hat theory if I’ve ever heard one.

Besides, I mention a possible red herring once and I’m obsessed with them? Good one. No, not really.

I always hold the stance of “what is said is truth until otherwise contested” – and Vorpp is uncontested, but he’s very general too. All he shows, while uncontested, is that the entity (identity unknown still) was present when Scarlet went into the machine, and that her change in persona/the entity getting to her is tied to the Dream of Dreams.

Cael.3960:

I make no judgement on whether or not a force of nature can possess sentience or even higher intelligence, it seems equally possible to me that they may be brilliant or mindless.

Elder Dragons know everything their minions know. They know their minions’ thoughts, their actions, their memories from before corruption even.

They’ve corrupted countless living beings from countless civilizations over several millenniums.

I think that’d make them pretty kitten smart, to be honest.

Cael.3960:

The “alarm clock” analogy was more about suggesting a purpose for Scarlett than to state as fact that the Elder Dragons required champions to awake them. I’m wondering how much longer Mordremoth would have slept before the events of the Battle for Lion’s Arch caused his awakening.

The Elder Dragons typically awoke 50 years from each other. Though of this, Jormag had woken early thanks to Drakkar and the Sons of Svanir, and Primordus attempted to wake early via the Great Destroyer (he was pushed back, but no one knows when he would have woke when untouched).

Aethelbert.1497:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Do you have solid proof that there isn’t? Four out of four Elder Dragons who’s corruption we see is capable of corrupting both land and flesh.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, as they say. Should I consider all your speech a verbiage?

I think it’s painfully obvious that what I say will hold no effect on you, but I’ll try one last time to make my case:

Shortly before release, Jeff and Ree had a livestream interview during which Jeff stated that the Elder Dragons are, paraphrasing, “different but similar”. This isn’t the first time he mentioned such. But what this means is that there are similarities seen across all Elder Dragons, while each Elder Dragon holds differences from the rest. Jeff also said that these similarities and differences extend to their minions.

Now, of the four Elder Dragons we see a decent amount of, these are the only things that are shared amongst them.

Deduce what you will from that.

Cael.3960:

It’s a little strange to think of Mordremoth using her as an alarm clock though. If we assume each of the Elder Dragons required a Champion to assist in their awakening (the Great Destroyer, Glint, Tequatl, Drakkar, for example), it’s strange that the Jungle Dragon didn’t have one active before Ceara entered Omadd’s machine and became Scarlett.

Tequatl wasn’t what woke Zhaitan and there’s actually nothing to imply it was around when Zhaitan woke, in fact – or as far as I know (perhaps you know something I don’t?). As far as we know, Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan were both without an “alarm clock” – however, it should be noted that the Maw (featured only in Sea of Sorrows novel) may have been a risen even before Zhaitan’s rise; and the Giganticus Lupicus fought in Arah explorable was from the previous rise too.

However, who’s to say the jungle dragon doesn’t have a champion? It’s hinted that the Blighted in Wychmire Swamp may be tied to Mordremoth, thus making the Great Jungle Wurm a champion of his.

Aethelbert.1497:

It’s arguable, but what if Mordremoth’s ‘theme’ is intelligence and curiosity? Just an assumption. Which comes from Sylvari’s natural curiosity and the fact that they may be tied to Mordy in some way.

Everything the Elder Dragons’ “personalities” show results in hostility. Intelligence and curiosity… don’t.

Aethelbert.1497:

Plus, the Malyck story arc happens before (not sure, though) Caera hops in Omadd’s cube, and we don’t know at which point Mordy became active during his sleep (as Prim did with Great Destroyer), so it’s unclear what’s happening to other ‘Pale Trees’ now. And who said that Malyck was honest?

All of the personal story happens in 1325 AE. Ceara was in the machine before 1321 AE. Evidence:

Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd’s machine, you’ve been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours.
Scarlet Briar: Let me be clear. I’m not doing this for you; I’m doing it for me. Nobody tells me what to do. Not ever.
Scarlet Briar: It’s not true. None of it. I don’t have to listen to you. Get out of my head!
Marjory Delaqua: I wonder if the voices in her head are real? What if what she saw in Omadd’s machine grabbed hold of her?
Marjory Delaqua: Scarlet rejected the Pale Tree because she wanted independence. What if Omadd’s machine cost her that?
Marjory Delaqua: Ironic that she rejected the Pale Tree to exert her independence, only to lose it to something else.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Dead_End:_A_Study_in_Scarlet

In said instance, her journal’s also dated 1321 to 1323.

Aethelbert.1497:

Yet, Vorpp mentions the Dream of Dreams, and I think he does it for a reason. If it wasn’t important, he wouldn’t mention it at all. As the Living World progresses, it’s characters tend to be right about what they speak, especially if it’s an asura who’s talking.

Which would be the perfect time for Anet to toss in a red herring under the guise of a figure’s guessing on something fully unknown to them.

Cael.3960:

The Elder Dragons have been described as “forces of nature” who “gorge themselves upon the magic of the world, then return to slumber”. Does that sound like the kind of villain who lusts for world domination? Each one of them seeks nothing more than to drain Tyria of it’s magic.

Sea of Sorrows, pages 425-426, said by Captain Whiting, champion of Zhaitan:

“The rule of the living has ended. This is the time of the Elder Dragons. Thus begins the time of Zhaitan and Orr. he day of their ultimate victory is close.”

Frostgorge Sound, said by the Frost Portal skill challenge:

“Strength alone governs this world. Embrace Jormag, and you will gain power beyond belief.”

Do these sound like the sayings of beasts who seek nothing but consuming magic? They’re very much out to rule, either their own means of doing so.

Cael.3960:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon Under Nature and physiology and again in the first description of the subject.

Uh…

1. The wiki is written by the playerbase, and thus subject to error.
2. The wiki stated described as. As in, compared to. As in they are not forces of nature but are compared to such often.

I will clarify this for you. The Elder Dragons are not forces of nature. They are compared to such – both in-game and by developers – but not said to be one and the same. Furthermore, they’re compared to forces of nature for two reasons: Firstly, they are immensely powerful and are capable of causing – or in some cases, becoming – forces of nature (though this should be viewed as a super-high-level Tornado skill by elementalists and the like). Secondly, they are amoral. They just don’t give a kitten who they hurt or how, just like forces of nature don’t care.

The Elder Dragons are not compared because they’re mindless or the like, which is the common misconception.

Cael.3960:

The Champions and unique minions (Eyes, mouths, etc) are a different matter. These are entities the Dragons have invested significant time and attention toward, and it stands to reason that their own degree of personal autonomy is held rigidly in check. They are too valuable to be left to their own devices, both as tools and as potential targets.

Due to the ingrained fanaticism present in all speaking sentient dragon minions, one can argue that they are left to their own devices, especially given the constant statements that the Elder Dragons just don’t care. To quote Jeff Grubb about the state of Sons of Svanir killing any female norn who’s corrupted by icebrood:

Jormag doesn’t care. Jormag really does not care. It’s as if ants that are going off, the red ants and the black ants, that’s nice.
http://guildmag.com/magazine/issue9/interview.htm

Cael.3960:

I argue that because of this value the Elder Dragons are always present within them, observing their actions in real time, ready to dominate their minds if the situation necessitates this. In that light they, while able to voice unique dialogue, can be equally mindless when directly controlled.

Dragon minions are always tied mentally to their respective Elder Dragon – and all of them equally. http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png There would thus be no case of them being “equally mindless when directly controlled” because – unlike Harbinger with the Collectors in Mass Effect 2, there is no assuming direct control.

Cael.3960:

It stands to reason that the Elder Dragons, who each possess a different elemental nature, would not necessarily pursue their goals in the same fashion. However, from what we have seen of them so far there is an unsubtle undercurrent of brute force. […] During the “Forging the Pact” story quest the Risen were already present in Timberline Falls, not far from where the Rubicon was found.

I disagree that there’s no personality or different methods seen. Rather than repeat myself of old research, here is some old, now outdated more than likely, research on the matter using the Elder Dragons’ minions and their methods of corruption as a basis. And there’s more than just “brute force” involved, especially with Jormag and Zhaitan.

I suppose I should revisit that theory, now that we have more on Mordremoth (especially since then, more has been discovered!).

Also, it’s not the Tome of Rubicon that was found during Forging the Pact.

DjC.7039:

just throwing this in, but could Mordremtoh(’s champion) be or be related to that creature that is attacking the dream at the start of a sylvaran characters story?

from what i remember, that had a very dragon champion/plant like look about it.

It’s stated multiple times that it is a manifestation of your (the PC) Wyld Hunt made hostile by the Nightmare Court’s influence.

Caithe: “This poison spreads hatred and anger. We must fight it.”
→ Who caused this?
“An evil group called the Nightmare Court. They wish to harm the sleepers. Trust me, sapling. All will be made clear to you very soon.”

(When the dragon appears)
Caithe: “There! The poison has taken form. Quickly, destroy it while we can!”

(When waking)
<Character name>: “She and I fought side by side against a poison in the Dream. I saw the shadow of a terrible dragon, and I felt the Dream call upon me to defeat it.”
Mender Serimon: “By the Tree! A Wyld Hunt, so soon? And such a momentous task. To be a Valiant of the Wyld Hunt is a difficult charge. Bear this calling with pride.”
<Character name>: “I will. But how do I begin? One does not simply awaken and rush off to face a dragon.”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fighting_the_Nightmare

(At end of lvl 10 story step)
<Character name>: If I may ask, Mother-in my dream, I also saw a fierce, horrible dragon. I’ve been told it is my Wyld Hunt to face this monster. Is that true?
Avatar of the Tree: I fear that it is. A Wyld Hunt is a sacred thing, a burden placed by the Dream upon the strongest and bravest of my children.
Avatar of the Tree: In your Dream, you fought an Elder Dragon face-to-face. Only two of my children have had such a dream. You, and Caithe.
Avatar of the Tree: All sylvari fight the dragon’s servants, the undead, but I believe you will face Zhaitan itself. I also believe you will prevail.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Heart_of_Nightmare
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Night,_White_Stag
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beneath_a_Cold_Moon
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Knight%27s_Duel (Dialogue isn’t up on wiki, but it’s said there too)

The Shadow of the Dragon is also talked about on the sylvari page from the original Guildwars2.com article on them:
Only a rare few, the great heroes of their race, see the shadows of dragons and know it as a danger that threatens the world.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110815225850/http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/

And is still there, though in altered form, in the present version of it:
A rare few sylvari have seen the shadows of the Elder Dragons in the Dream, warnings of the danger that menaces the awakened world.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/

Aethelbert.1497:

You still tend to forget that there is six Elder Dragons, but you mention three. The fact that one minions – Primordus’ ones – does not speak at all ruins all what you trying to say.

I mention three because we have not yet seen Mordremoth’s or the DSD’s minions.

And no, the lack of speaking does not ruin what I’m trying to say. Lack of speech does not mean lack of fanaticism. This goes double so since what I’m trying to say is that all dragon minions show fanaticism to their Elder Dragon – and, I forgot to mention, a lack of free will. And we know that the Great Destroyer and other dragon champions of Primordus (we’ve only met two – Great Destroyer and Destroyer of Life, the latter being in the novel Edge of Destiny) show intelligence, as well as function just as all other dragon champions do – serving their dragon without any fluctuation in this act.

Aethelbert.1497:

Do you have a solid proof that ALL Elder Dragons corrupt flesh, and that is not your far-fetched conclusions?

Do you have solid proof that there isn’t? Four out of four Elder Dragons who’s corruption we see is capable of corrupting both land and flesh.

Aethelbert.1497:

Svanir did not spread corruption. Means you are wrong.
Fanatic? Mind control/posession and fanatcism are two different things. They are more of a body parts, not a followers.
Perhaps, but wait, Sylvari already hold an elemental theme to them. What are you trying to tell me?

We didn’t see Svanir spread corruption, but we clearly see all other icebrood – including Drakkar, the dragon champion who corrupted Svanir – spread corruption. So I don’t see how this means I’m wrong since I wasn’t talking about individual dragon minions (though we know they all do, especially dragon champions – of which Svanir is outright called – as the very definition for being a dragon champion is being intelligent, leading minions, and spreading corruption) but the Elder Dragons.

Dragon minions show fanaticism in their speech. It may be induced by mind control (it isn’t possession as the minions retain individuality even though their memories and knowledge are known by their Elder Dragon), but the fanaticism is still there.

Sylvari hold an elemental them no more than elementals. And yet elementals are changed when they are corrupted. Though to be honest, i would not call “being a plant” to be an elemental theme. No more than being made of flesh and bone. To be made of an element is to be made out of earth, air, water, fire, and variations thereof; plant is not an element, it is just a different kind of flesh. After all, plants were turned into crystal by Kralkatorrik.

Aethelbert.1497:

By your logic:
If Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik turn living beings into minions, there is no reason to believe that three or even four Elder Dragons would differ from the other and create minions from, say, stone or lava!
See?
We don’t have all the picture, so we can’t judge what is probable and what is not yet.

Yes, I would say that all Elder Dragons are capable of making minions out of stone and lava – if they choose to do so. This was, in fact, my very argument – they can all corrupt things equally, but for reasons unknown to us chose not to.

After all, we see that very thing happening with Kralkatorrik, who corrupts lightning and stone into minions, and Jormag has corrupted mist as part of the Dragonspawn as well as bone and ice. Zhaitan has corrupted the land and waters itself as shown in the Personal Story, and in Arah we see lightning where Zhaitan was (as well as lightning in Drakkar Spurs) – even though he didn’t make them into dragon minions, they were still corrupted.

arlowix.5039:

What I struggle with, Konig, and the very reason I make very few forum posts is that it’s hard to counteract your (occasionally flawed) logic and assumptions (that you present as the ultimate truth), because your wording is very, very well put and elusive.
Why cite months or even year-old posts made by the Devs? You know better than me (again) that those do not matter as you want them to.
Take a language. A language is made of things used in the present. What words were used in the past hold no significance to the actual spoken language.
In the same way, things in the GW universe changed alot. Retcons were made, and old dev posts were contradicted.

Firstly, I do not state my assumptions as ultimate truth, but rather as “the situation as we presently know it” – unless I’m stating a theory in which I always make sure to state “IMO” (or “I believe” “I theorize” etc.). If I ever do word it to be that my “assumptions” are “ultimate truth” then it was simply that I forgot to type a word for xyz reason. I presume, in this case, you’re stating my stance of “sylvari are not dragon minions” but the only ultimate truth I state here is that there is no support for this – which is true enough. All of the “support” I have seen for this hypothesis is either over-assumptions on rather general statements, or stuff that’s outright disproven by other things.

Secondly, all lore is relevant, regardless of age, until it is disproven in-game. And even then, it has to be an objective truth (such as us seeing the yellow growth on Scarlet’s face in the cinematic, or a Word of God statement from the developers such as in interviews) and not a subjective truth (such as Vorpp’s theory, or Thruln the Lost’s tale) to outright override the old lore, otherwise it’s simply two views on the same subject matter – and it can be that one’s right while the other’s wrong, or both are wrong while a third unknown side is right.

This sylvari article, for one, has yet to be outright contradicted. As I said, multiple times now, we only know that sylvari in, at the very least, unique circumstances (going through Omadd’s machine) might possibly become corruptable by Mordremoth.

DarcShriek.5829:

Looks to me like Mordy changed the sylvari to plants!

Seriously though, all known minions of the jungle dragon have been plant based. With Scarlet already being a plant, what could she change in to?

I don’t think we’ve yet to see a confirmed minion of Mordremoth, technically speaking.

Aethelbert.1497:

Second, right, that voice could have been Mordy himself. But you forget one fact that is highly suspicious. If sylvari are clearly aren’t related to the Elder Dragon in any way, why bother making so many controversial and misterious hints all over the place, zone green and et cetera?

In Zone Green and Crucible of Eternity, all I see are hints to the Nightmare, not sylvari in general. You do not once see a non-Nightmare sylvan hound, or a non-Nightmare plant mortar, or anything else used by non-Nightmare sylvari there.

Aethelbert.1497:

The problem with your assumptions is that you have a point and looking for a proof. The fact that Caera saw something in Omadd’s cube suggests, as Rata Sum ambassador said at some point, that she released something that was inside her all along, and that something was under ‘quarantine’, guarded by the, some would say, the Dream of Dreams.

An in-game theory which only suggests that the entity was present when she stepped into the machine. It is not “all along” like people are mistaken, but that she brought it in with her – this only means that the entity is simply with her at that time already.

Now, if the entity is Mordremoth or, more likely IMO given his hibernating state, a champion of Mordremoth, it is highly likely, IMO, to be the source of the Nightmare. Ceara brought in the Dream of Dreams – and by extension, the Nightmare – with her into the machine. Therefore, by bringing in the Nightmare, she brought in the entity – should the theory that the Nightmare is influence by Mordremoth(’s champion) hold true; and it is this theory that CoE supports directly, rather than “all sylvari are dragon minions” given the distinct lack of anything not Nightmare.

arlowix.5039:

Exactly. Every single line put in the LS was meant to give insight to the real reasons behind everything. Do you really mean that in that particular story istance, of ALL the correct answers, the one Vorpp gives is the only one that is wrong? It’s clearly put by Anet to give us some insight…and foreshadowing.

Never said it was wrong. Rather, I would argue you’re taking a mile when a foot is given – so to speak. Though that’s probably a bad metaphor, so let me be more clear cut:

You’re taking something small to be bigger than it actually is.

Vorpp says this:

“Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought. I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection? We’d need to do far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream before I could draw any more-detailed conclusions.”

So in short, what he says is this:

• The Entity was with Scarlet when she entered the machine.
• Scarlet lost some sort of psychological protection (thus she became insane – this was stated by Scott McGough back in August and likely has little to do with their protection against dragon corruption – this is purely talking about her mental state)
• He theorizes that the Dream is related, but won’t say anything definitive.

From this, people are saying “Mordremoth was always with her, proof that sylvari were born dragon minions!” but that’s not what Vorpp is saying. All Vorpp is saying is at that specific time, Mordremoth’s influence was already tied to Scarlet in some ways, and that he theorizes that the Dream is involved.

Now, onto you saying “Do you really mean that in that particular story istance, of ALL the correct answers, the one Vorpp gives is the only one that is wrong?”

Ever heard of a red herring? ArenaNet has used them before, it wouldn’t be a shocker if they did this again. Nor would it be a shocker if they decided to say “it was Vorpp’s semi-educated guess, and not concrete proof” no different than them saying the History of Tyria was human legends and not the actual history of the world.

arlowix.5039:

How can one release something inside himself if that something wasn’t present since the beginning? And if that something coincides with Mordremoth or a darker nature of the Sylvari, doesn’t that make the Sylvari true nature Mordremoth/Nightmare/whatever it is?

To question one: simple, if it was added somepoint between “the beginning” and it being “released.”

To question two: no, it just means that somehow Mordremoth got to Ceara. Nothing actually talks about the sylvari’s “darker nature” or “true nature” around Scarlet – nothing at all. And even then, the only ones who claim any “true nature of the sylvari” is the Nightmare Court whom are open hypocrites as I showed in this thread earlier.

arlowix.5039:

EDIT: About your last mention of Sylvari’s immunity. How can we even consider how they react against Mordremoth if by the time that post was made we barely knew at all what the jungle dragon’s name was? We have absolutely no idea of how he corrupts, or if he does at all. I’m sorry, but that article isn’t as important for me as it is for you.

The article, however, is not from an in-game perspective. It is from an out-of-game perspective. This means it isn’t a matter of what we the players know so much as how much the developers are willing to reveal so soon.

The only reason I mentioned the possibility of Malyck being not excluded from what the article says is because it’s a prose format of writing, to make it sound more fluid to say “those born of the Pale Tree” over “sylvari”.

Mind you, it is fully possible that sylvari wouldn’t be immune to Mordremoth’s corruption – or even Primordus’, Jormag’s, and the DSD’s (if any of those were going to be the case, it’d be Mordremoth and DSD) – however given that it’s talking about dragons in general, I would argue that until we have evidence pointing otherwise without unique exceptions like Scarlet (she’s a unique exception due to the Omadd machine experience), we cannot argue that the article is lying. Just like everything else in lore.

We know now that:

• It is highly possible that Scarlet was corrupted.
• This means that it would be possible for sylvari to be corrupted.
• But we know they cannot be corrupted by Zhaitan or Kralkatorrik (likely Primordus and Jormag too).
• So either something is preventing their corruption – something Scarlet lost – or Mordremoth is just capable of bypassing this zero tolerance.

Aethelbert.1497:

First, the concept of corruption. Please, prove that corruption is always mind and body metamorhposis, and keep in mind we haven’t seen all the Elder Dragons.

Every minion we have seen which is of intelligent level and capable of speech – be it of Jormag, Kralkatorrik, or Zhaitan (cannot list Primordus as destroyers never speak) – they have always praised their respective dragon fanatically – even if they didn’t even know the dragon existed in life. Edge of Destiny, pages 346-348 are good examples of this, but so is all the named dragon minions seen in Sea of Sorrows – and for that matter, most of the Orrian risen in-game – they never knew of Zhaitan while alive, but praise him instead of their gods as risen (and it should be noted that all Orrians were really devoted to the then Five Gods).

And I don’t think I need to explain how dragon corruption twists land and flesh, given that was the very first thing we learned about them other than they woke, they’re ancient, they’re deadly.

All dragon minions show fanaticism towards their dragon, and all dragon minions’ bodies physically change into crystal, ice, fire, rot (the corpses of those killed near risen in the novels are described as instantly turning gray and rotten, often rising again before they even hit the ground). Each dragon holds different personalities in their minions (Zhaitan is all about the lies, Jormag is all about the power, etc.), and they each corrupt with different “parameters” though they are capable of corrupting all things (Zhaitan primarily corrupts corpses, but via Kellach we know he can corrupt living, and via a Sparkfly Fen heart we know he can corrupt plants; Jormag prefers corrupting only those who had turned to serve him, but we’ve seen Sons of Svanir forcefully corrupting others into icebrood too). They each hold differences, but they hold the same three shared characteristics:

• They all consume magic and spread corruption.
• All of their minions are fanatic towards them.
• All of their minions hold an elemental theme to them.

There is no reason to believe that 1 or even 2 of the 6 Elder Dragons would differ from the other 4 in these three points, especially since for Mordremoth the first is already confirmed, and third is highly probable.

korelg.7862:

maybe the silvary are not direct minnions of mordremoth, maybe each tree is a champion and the silvary was born due to their influence on plants, plants are living beings… maybe silvary are just corrupted plants and thats why they can’t be corrupted again… who knows

That is direct minions of Mordremoth.

And as Crucible of Eternity shows, it is possible for a dragon minion to be corrupted by another dragon.

arlowix.5039:

I would like to point out a few things. First of all, we have no idea at all of the way Mordremoth corrupts (or, as you say, if he even does) but saying that Scarlet wasn’t corrupted by him is a denial stance towards what we seen ingame.

Firstly, I never actually says “Scarlet wasn’t corrupted by Mordremoth”. I have been saying that it isn’t absolutely clear she isn’t.

Secondly, can you provide undeniable proof that Scarlet’s corrupted by Mordremoth? No, you cannot. Why? As you said: we have no idea at all of the way Mordremoth corrupts. Or for that matter, what his corruption looks like.

arlowix.5039:

You know better than me (I know you do) that the reason that those yellow strains on her face aren’t present in her ingame model is just pure lazyness.

At first glance, no doubt it’s pure laziness, however, they made her new armor. So the question becomes:

Why make new armor, but not – instead or in addition to – a new face, when we only get one of said armor pieces (thus far)? In fact, the armor piece we get isn’t even the same as the armor she wears, so they went and made two helmets – one for the PC, one for Scarlet. If this is a matter of pure laziness… why make that second helmet at all?

I think that’s something to consider.

arlowix.5039:

Scarlet was unprotected from the Dream, and thus allowed partial possession of her mind. Partial because we know how MUCH Scarlet strived for independence and what a great personality she had after all (social psycho apart).
I wouldn’t consider Scarlet fully corrupted. I’d define her half corrupted, half manipulated.
Mordremoth was asleep, and that may justify why he hasn’t/wasn’t able to fully corrupt and control Scarlet making her a real, obedient champion. She was still her minion, but her great willpower allowed her to retain a part of free will against a still-dormant Elder Dragon.

See, this is more or less what I would argue.

Scarlet was very likely to be corrupted, but it isn’t because the too-common-but-no-support “theory” of them being original minions of Mordremoth, but rather because she lost what was protecting her and the other sylvari from corruption (be it the Dream or something else Omadd’s machine messed up).

However, I disagree on the “partial corruption” – no dragon minion thus far can be “partially” corrupted. You either are, or you aren’t. There is no mid-way in this topic. And Mordremoth being asleep wouldn’t affect the amount of corruption – given that we have the Great Destroyer, Svanir, Drakkar, Glint, and other dragon minions existing with full blown corruption while their respective Elder Dragon was asleep. Even if you only count Svanir and disregard the others (sans some Eye of the North destroyers made by the Great Destroyer while Primordus slept) for being made during the previous rise, it is still full blown corruption.

@DarcShriek: Or Malyck’s having a harder time than he thought. Maybe there are local threats, or his people are going like Caudecus: “they’re not a threat to us, why should we bother?” and Malyck’s unable to convince them. Or maybe he was a Firstborn and thus there is no “other sylvari people” yet beyond a small group like the Pale Tree’s Firstborn.

On sylvari being corrupted: A sylvari’s physical appearance being drastically changed into something not normal – thus more than likely requiring a new in-game model – as well as, and this is the more important part, a psychological change to show fanaticism towards a dragon.

With Scarlet, all we have is some minor skin alterations of unknown origin and, truth be told, unknown effect – Elder Dragon corruption changes something to a specific element (Jormag to ice, Primordus to fire, Kralkatorrik to crystal, Zhaitan to decay and rot), either slowly over time or immediately, but in either case it is obvious (Jormag and Primordus are slowly over time, but even then – when Primordus corrupts flesh, it becomes encased in stone first before melting into lava/fire; when Jormag corrupts flesh, the skin turns to ice before the insides do – in either case, it’s obvious even with the youngest stages of corruption). Not only this, but that yellow growth only appears in the cinematic, not in-game.

And when we go to the psyche, the only hint of dragon corruption we have from Scarlet is “Tyria will bow to a new master” – which is very generic, and for all we know might not even be talking about Mordremoth (yeah, the likelihood of that being the case is extremely thing but hey, you never know).

@mtpelion: While only immunity to undeath/Zhaitan’s corruption is mentioned in-game, it was stated in a general case on the official website before the race and profession articles were dumbed down in its content.

“hile the other races may be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, turned into undead minions or crystalline creatures of the Brand, the sylvari are never turned. Those born of the Pale Tree simply die before the corruption takes hold. Many sylvari believe that this is because they were born to battle the dragons, blessed with a certain protection against their most horrible powers. Some non-sylvari scholars state instead that the sylvari’s strange biology foils the corruption of the dragon”

Though both Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik’s corruption is mentioned specifically, it’s mentioned that those of the Pale Tree will simply die rather than become corrupted. And while its wording of “those born of the Pale Tree” may hint to Malyck not being immune, it should be noted that this was written before Malyck was revealed so that’s far from definitive proof.

I don’t think Lion’s Arch would let them happen.

Besides, given the new lines from holographic Mai Trin about digging in at the Edge of the Mists, I think there are already plans for Mai Trin to return in the future with some Aetherblades.

Calling it now: Mai Trin = Scarlet 2.0 (but hopefully better written!) in that she’ll be leading the unified TA/MA/AB

Manipulatino by outside forces doesn’t necessitate being capable of living.

We can take things out of the Fractals though, but only inanimate (non-living) things. So it’s unlikely that Abaddon would be capable of leaving.

However, it should be noted that Evon if is indeed religious he’s more likely interested in the titans – whom were worshiped by the charr. However, I feel that he’d be less a devotee himself and more in simply learning something about the old faith. Perhaps even trying to bring a god for the Flame Legion to follow so that they’ll end up following him.

Ironically, NinjaChris, it’s the opposite in this game for what enemies do to make it “hated by players” list.

Kill named NPCs? No problem! You’re a good guy.

Kill a generic “Citizen” NPC? Oh, it’s on now!

They used Mini Mai Trin because:

1) It’s newer. The Mini Hologram Scarlet was introduced with Twilight Assault, Mini Mai Trin was introduced with Escape from Lion’s Arch. They always do this – even if there’s a pre-existing miniature that’d make sense in the Mystic Forge for recipes, they introduce new ones. It’s always “the mini box + one RNG mini you can get in this update makes a fifth mini for the update!” – it’s been this way since Wintersday 2012.
2) The other three are Scarlet’s underlings as well as Mai Trin – and as above, all four miniatures are new (thus there’s no usage of, say, the Mini Firestorm or Mini Hybrid).

As to the Scarlet we killed being Mai Trin, this fails for two reasons:
1) Scarlet is a sylvari, Mai Trin is a human. There’s no way to make a human plant-like with modern magic. Scarlet doesn’t wear as mask in the final instance, the helmet and other armor is only there for the Hologram fight.
2) Mai Trin began issuing NEW orders since Battle (or Escape) began in the Edge of the Mists. Mind you, it’s just a hologram of Mai Trin, but still…

And about the miasma – it is the toxins from the Nightmare Tower, but modified to remove the hallucinations but made deadlier. So it’s an advanced form of the Nightmare Tower toxins.

Vexander.9850:

It seems possible to me that all of the Molten Alliance, Aether Blades, and Toxic Alliance forces that continued to follow Scarlet went to Lion’s Arch, that the attack on the city was the, ‘All or Nothing,’ moment for those three factions, and that they’ll be wiped out and any possible survivors will simply return to their respective factions. Molten Alliance Dredge would return to the Moletariate, while their Charr would return to the Flame Legion. Toxic Alliance Nightmare Court Sylvari would return to the Nightmare Court, while Krait return to… Krait. That sort of thing.

In short, I wouldn’t be surprised if these Alliances were destroyed or disbanded.

The Flame Legion and krait cannot return to their original groups – Vexander said why for krait, but the Flame Legion are more or less in the same boat. The Nightmare Court of the Toxic Alliance were always a splinter faction so I think they’ll just remain such – just far smaller.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I don’t think Caudecus is really keeping his hands out of things. And he’s alive.

Prove he’s White Mantle and he’s next, instead of those smug, potato-headed asura.

Never said he’s next. Just that he’s had his hands on things but isn’t dead yet. He’s the defacto leader for the anti-Jennah regiment, he hires bandits as personal bodyguards, whom are known to work for him elsewhere, and are known to be White Mantle controlled.

I don’t think Caudecus is really keeping his hands out of things. And he’s alive.

Alice.8694:

Killing Scarlet truly feels like a fan-appeasement cop out. Players demanded you ditch scarlet and get on with the dragons and then that happens in that order, practically in the same cutscene.

To be fair, however, Scott McGough said this would be the plan since August – that after Scarlet we’ll have a dragon to face; that she was just a filler between dragons and that there will be future filler arcs between each dragon. So that players don’t go “kill this dragon, kill that dragon, now kill the dragon over there!”

Interview in question

Alice.8694:

But whether it was planned from the start or not that scarlet would bow out here really doesn’t change the fact that the story just wasted months of build up on one character to kill her off before she gained the chance to become a three dimensional character. Forever will she now remain a two dimensional character with a lot of negative player sentiment.

Gotta agree here. Really wish they did a lot more with her. But they didn’t, and now they can’t except in post-mortem which isn’t the same.

Alice.8694:

I realize that there are times when killing a villain is the only option. I just think that at this moment, this was a wasted opportunity… Sadly one of many.

I think killing Scarlet was good – having her imprisoned… the mere thought of it gives me poor taste, simply because “she’s someone who could do so much, who could convince just about anyone to work for her, but all of a sudden she’s helpless” feels off – though the final instance where killing Scarlet is spoonfed to you (just try afking that fight and you’ll see!). It’s just that the “final four chapters” happened a bit too fast, with still too much idiot ball handling on the good guys’ part and too little given to us (or rather, too much too short – everything we learned was from Edge of the Mists; Origins of Madness gave some good subliminal exposition and the final cinematic was cool but tbh, Escape and Battle held no storytelling to it).

Rather than her lair being empty, we could have come across those holograms from A Study in Scarlet then, perhaps even some interaction between us and Scarlet-via-hologram (like Vorpp). We saw four X’s in her lair but saw nothing come of three of them – maybe we could have deduced the wrong target, thinking she’d go after say, the Grove instead. Learn the wrong goal and then find out that no one was holding the idiot ball but we just made a mistake.

But aw well. What’s lost, is lost.

It’s good to see that Jora can once again become the bear. Now, mayhaps, she may regain her status. There is but one obstacle, one mountain she must yet climb. Her clan homestead is overrun with Charr. No respected Norn would allow the land to be violated by such beasts.

Jora: “I am Jora. My brother erred most grievously. I seek to redeem my family’s name.”
Egil Fireteller: “To rebuild your family’s name, you must regain your family’s homestead.”
Egil Fireteller: “Yet only tragedy may come from a home built with blood-stained hands.”
Egil Fireteller: “Wash clean your sins. Blood washes blood.”

My guess is yes, Svanir’s actions disgraced the whole family. Though killing her brother to lift the curse was also a kitten ing act in its own right.

I would argue that if Scarlet specifically was chosen and it wasn’t by happenstance, then it would be because:

Mordremoth is trying to corrupt sylvari (via a champion), but they’re all protected by the Dream; Scarlet was disconnected from the Dream, thus became vulnerable.

Or alternatively, maybe Mordremoth can only corrupt plants and thus he cannot corrupt human, norn, asura, etc. that are in the Maguuma Jungle.

Or maybe Scarlet was corrupted by the Great Jungle Wurm (presuming that it is indeed a champion of Mordremoth), other sylvari couldn’t because they’re still protected from corruption, and no other race is around there (other than player characters which are by being player characters are therefore immune) to become corrupted (sans the grubs).

Or maybe Scarlet was corrupted as ArenaNet’s attempt halfway through the plot to redeem the utter confusing failure that is the character dubbed Scarlet Briar. After all, it wasn’t added until January, this “entity” stuff, and thus they could have thought it up easily in September and October to add it all in.

But honestly, other than being the main villain of the plot, is there a reason why Scarlet specifically was corrupted? And this is presuming that she was, indeed, corrupted. And if there is a reason, I would argue that Omadd’s machine is the core of the reason, and given Vorpp’s in-game-theory as a hint, the Dream is too.

Yeah but eating Risen mean makes you one.

The opposite of traditional zombies!

Huh, and in my mind came this:

“Serve Zhaitan today! Eat the tail of the dragon you just killed!”