Guild Wars 2

Occam’s Razor is seldom the situation, however, when it comes to invented stories. Furthermore, you got it wrong – “the simplest explanation is often the correct one” – but besides that, what is the simplest explanation? When can you merit getting to it?

When you look at the full picture rather than just “Scarlet woke up Mordremoth; Scarlet is a plant; Mordremoth is a plant dragon” you don’t get what you say is the simplest explanation of “sylvari are his minions”. To me, once you look at the full picture – which is necessary for Occam’s Razor (otherwise you’d get that Shiro simply wanted to return to life, and Suun’s warnings of what would have happened if Shiro wasn’t stopped was simply that he’d cause a lot of trouble – get the full picture, and you’d see that Suun’s warnings were more about Abaddon) – there is no simplest explanation because we don’t yet have all the pieces.

You cannot put together a jigsaw puzzle when you lack a third of the pieces.

lakdav.3694:

I always assumed that Shiro was possessed to some degree when he unleashed the Jade Wind as he died. He doesnt have any magical ability of that scale up to that point, and the demon who manipulated him was nowhere near, at least physicly.

I might remember wrong, but isnt the entirety of Shiro’s plague mostly centered around possessions of a sort?

The Jade Wind was caused by magic supposedly gifted by Dwayna to the emperor during the Harvest Ceremony. Said magic was supposed to be spread to the people, but Shiro took his enchanted soul-stealing swords (the lore explanation of vampiric weapons I suppose) and took this magic for himself upon killing Emperor Angsiyan (sp?). When he died, the magic was all released at once and thanks to Shiro’s state of mind/forbidden rituals he performed beforehand (reason isn’t exactly clear, it may just be how the magic ends up when released all at once), petrified things.

The Afflicted and Shiro’ken aren’t cases of possession but Shiro’s ability as an envoy to control other spirits.

lakdav.3694:

Is forbidden magic so easy to come by that potentially psychotic warriors can go around gathering them and learning a great deal from them as a hobby (next to the job of serving as bodyguard to the most important person inCantha)?

I don’t think so. They’re explicitly stated to be illegal, and he was the Emperor’s bodyguard so he likely got easy/easier access to the illegal stuff.

Plus, the full line is:

But somewhere along the way, dark forces corrupted Shiro Tagachi, forces that he sought out against the laws of his empire and his gods. He learned the ways of forbidden sorcery and engaged in studies and rituals well beyond the disciplines of the Assassin. He found that these taboo powers were second nature to him, and the darkest forms of magic were the easiest of all.

From An Empire Divided.

Tuomir.1830:

About Thaumanova Reactor, do consider that even though in real world Chernobyl disaster happened, nuclear energy is still used, just with better safeguards.

But no one would put a nuclear reactor over a fault line. This is my point. Have all the safeguards you want, it doesn’t matter for kitten if you put it over a location where it is the location that would compromise the facility.

Tuomir.1830:

Also, an idea that just popped into my head, it could very well be that the ley lines aren’t directly related to the dragons – that is, the lines don’t go according to their locations, but instead, they chose to slumber in places they knew the magic would flow through.

Well, if magic leaks from them, then it’s highly likely that it would go from them through channels of least resistance. So the magic would, theoretically, seep directly to the ley line via a path of least resistance.

Ley lines are basically just the channels for magic to move – as said, the paths of least resistance. Magic exists outside ley lines, but if it is left to its own device, they’ll go to them.

So the theory would be that the ley lines would begin at the dragons, and immediately find a path of least resistance from there – like if you were to spill a glass of water over a cracked surface. From the point where the water hits the surface (where the dragon is), the magic will immediately head towards those cracks as they’re lower ground (less resistance) and spread out from there.

Tuomir.1830:

Edit continue, there’s no reason to believe the Eye of the North was built at a time of low magic levels, or that the ley lines would have changed. I believe it has high potential of being built on a ley line focal point. It’s an artifact of unknown origin, with nothing similar around it. Whoever built it, built it there for a reason.

The Eye of the North’s origin is completely unknown. Unknown even to well-learned dwarf historians. This means that it is very old. Either shortly after the dragons fell asleep, when they were last awake, or even older. At this point, magic would be lower – the closer to the dragons’ rise, the less magic in the world. While theoretical, it makes perfect sense seeing how magic was so low it was barely noticeable on the surface prior to the gods unleashing magic from the Bloodstone. If it’s older than 1 BE, then it was around in a time with little magic in the world. And given that it is hinted to be tied to confronting the Elder Dragons – given its usefulness in Eye of the North (though this is really just player interpretation of its plot devicness), that hints to it being tied to an elder race.

Dustfinger, there isn’t a single playable race NPC who shares Malyck’s face. The PCs ability to share it comes from ArenaNet not wanting any NPC to hold faces, armor, or hair that cannot be used by the PC – even the new stuff made are in time added to the makeover kits. Though there’s plenty of town clothing/armor still not available, in total they’re uncommon in the long run.

Actually, few if any of the risen were Khilbron’s undead. While it’s said in the Prophecies manual that the Orrian islands are inhabited by the wandering dead, this is set between pre-Searing and the rest of the game, and doesn’t attribute to the undead’s invasion of Orr. Given that we see undead with similar skills and names to those in Prophecies during Eye of the North near Kryta but scattered, it’s unlikely they returned to Orr. Most Orrian risen we see in GW2 are the peasants, nobles, other non-militants, and the ancient dead (Zhaitan went tomb raiding), while most Orrian undead we see in GW1 appear to be the “modern military.”

It’s less of “nope, we’re done” and more of “well, kid, you’re in college now. Don’t kitten it up.”

If Abaddon was an SAT, the Elder Dragons are the 40 page college research papers. 8D

Keep in mind that dragon minions also absorb magic. So it isn’t just “kill the Elder Dragons” but “kill the Elder Dragons and each and every one of their minions, lieutenants, and champions”.

The issue with your thought is that the living beings apparently embody magic (according to Oola; my guess? the soul is comparable to magic, given that demons consume souls for nourishment in a similar manner to imps and dragon minions consuming magic). So the Elder Dragons would consume not just magic… but living beings too – they just don’t consume the flesh.

Places of magical power I don’t think holds ley line intersections (a single ley line may still be possible):

• Ring of Fires. The magical importance of this comes from the Door of Komalie, the portal to the Realm of Torment.
• Eye of the North. It’s ancient, perhaps built when there was little to no magic in ley lines; or before its drainage and thus possibly when different ley lines existed (before last rise, maybe the rises relocates ley lines? Pure speculation.)
• Glint’s Lair. While she would be consuming magic, the Forgotten likely would be able to give her magic while she tucked herself away in her sanctuary, making placing one on a ley line irrelevant (there’s also a the dragon blood she collected that she could have consumed magic from, since Kralk’s blood isn’t corruptive like the Sanguinary Blade).
• Most, if not all, of the communing skill challenges. They’re all man-made, recent, tied to the structure/artifact itself rather than the land or a power within the land, or tied more to water or places of death, only possible exception is the Krait Place of Power skill challenge in Bloodtide Coast, there may be a ley line from LA going through there (in fact, I bet its likely). Same goes for Bloodstone locations.

Non-Tyria places of magic I think ley lines may intersect at (most to least likely):

1. The Hallowed Point. Said to be very powerful magic, only place capable of destroying artifacts of powerful magic – in Straits of Devastation, there’s an event along southern invasion route where an NPC states that magic is very hard to destroy, meaning that Hallowed Point is even more unique. Befitting an intersection of ley lines, IMO – could include one coming from Orr or King’s Watch.
2. Harvest Temple. There’s nothing special about it, yet it was a floating island before Shiro, and Kuunavang remains there for unknown lengths of time – if she turns out to be akin to the ED and consumes magic… perfect explanation.
3. Fahranur. For the same reason as King’s Watch – plus said, iirc, to hold strong magic within, though could be sourced to Apocrypha or Scarab Plague, still alternative possibility.
4. Tahnnakai Temple. Another greatly ancient location of magic and importance for humanity, wouldn’t be surprising.

Still, if experimenting with chaos magic and dragon energy on an intersection of ley lines caused the Thaumanova Reactor to explode, and they figured out why the reactor went into meltdown, then why – unless they were utter morons or intending to duplicate the effect (for such they wouldn’t have created such a huge facility with so many different experimentations) – would they build another reactor that holds experimentations with dragon energy and chaos magic on top of an intersection of ley lines?

It doesn’t make logical sense.

Furthermore, I think that there are far too many ley lines in your map. We can actually gather a possibility of the number of ley lines coming through Lion’s Arch via the drill console in the Scarlet’s End instance (which is said to be an image transmitted from the probe) where we have a total of eight lines from the epicenter – initially being three going one way and three going another on the 2d monitor, the top on each side splits in two. Given that last bit and how they swerve on the 2d monitor, it wouldn’t surprise me if they move about (also given how the cinematic shows the blue light going in a waving pattern), even if not by much. We have to consider that the ley lines span the entire globe and that they’re the paths of least resistance for magic. There’s no reason for them to be straight or so numerous in continental Tyria, unless there’s just too much magic to flow through at once (which could be explained via so many Elder Dragons exuding/consuming magic near Tyria).

If I were to list magical places possible to contain ley lines (imo) form most to least likely including those we’ve got confirmed (and when likelihood is equal, from most intersections to least), I’d say:

1. Old Lion’s Arch (apparently 4 intersecting lines)
2. Thaumanova (2 or 3 intersecting lines)
3. The Artesian Waters (reason: center of highly-magical-Orr’s magic, possibly where Zhaitan hibernated as it is said to be under Arah like he was; likely ~6 intersecting lines, possibly including one going to LA)
4. Giant Lake in Blood Legion Homelands (reason: where Kralk slept, ley lines would form from him exuding magic most likely; likely ~6-8 ley lines)
5. The Falls in Magus Falls (reason: roughly where Mordremoth (same as bove), and is called magical in GW1; likely ~6-8 ley lines; could partially explain Maguuma’s magicalness)
6. Off map in Far Shiverpeaks (reason: where Jormag slept; likely ~6-8 ley lines intersecting, one possibly leads south towards Eye of the North)
7. King’s Watch (reason: Old LA and Orr both had ley line intersections, wouldn’t surprise me if like Old LA, one of the first Krytan cities from pre-Exodus, a place of importance in ancient Ascalon also held a criss-cross of ley lines, King’s Watch is the only known ancient monument aside from Stormcaller’s original location (which may be where a path from King’s Watch leads if I’m right); likely ~3-4 intersecting lines)

-cont-

When it comes to ley line locations, I doubt there’s one at Infinite Coil Reactor. The Inquest wouldn’t be foolish enough to make a second reactor over a ley line (let alone an intersection) when doing such at Thaumanova blew the place sky high. And looking at the Infinite Coil Reactor, it was built with intentions of lasting a long longer than “less than a year” like it did.

The map also lacks the “major intersections” at LA. There would be more at LA than at Thaumanova.

Though I doubt that ley lines are straight lines.

Thinking on possible ley line locations, I’d be surprised if one isn’t at the Central Transfer Chamber, since one seems to lead to Mordremoth it’d be surprising if at least one per doesn’t lead to a dragon. Which means there’d be one heading off the map north of the Far Shiverpeaks.

How Snaff took control of Kralkatorrik wouldn’t be in the archives for multiple reasons, the biggest two being:
1) Zojja would only know about the laurel. There was a lot of mind wrestling going on that only Snaff new about. How he managed to take Kralkatorrik down died with him.
2) Zojja is highly protective of Snaff’s inventions. Something like the laurel she wouldn’t enter into the archives – and only she would have been able to, since it was made on the spot so Snaff couldn’t have before leaving. Everything but the basics of Snaff’s research is classified to just Zojja as is anyways.

So neither Scarlet nor Kasmeer will be able to even know about this “Elder Dragon mind control findings.” This is apparent in that not even Kudu whom had the Inquest’s and in turn Arcane Councils’ backing knew of the laurel used on Kralkatorrik.

Malyck is also a bit different than all other sylvari – though it’s available in character creation, his face with his “antenna” is unique amongst sylvari NPCs, and since Anet went out of the way to make all NPCs appearances available to players (and even new faces/hairstyles eventually get added to the style kits), it’s hard to say how canon it owuld be to argue “any sylvari could have those.”

Besides, there are plenty of human-like beings out there. And not to mention that there are humans west of Rata Sum (well, possibly… White Mantle).

I think I just showed a perfect case how someone can put emotion into one sentence, let alone “two phrases”.

I fail to see how you get that I think I’m the smartest. But seeing how that’s clearly a made-up conclusion, given that I don’t think I’m the smartest, I don’t think it really matters.

Maybe there’s a difference, but I can say the same towards your statements. Nonetheless, the deaths are indeed meaningless – and if you’ve been around on the forums since release you’d know there’s a sizeable group of people who do like the game who feel that the NPCs die too much in the PS.

And why you said it didn’t happen is why I’m saying it shouldn’t happen still. Or other NPCs who hold some sort of spotlight. The mentors were done great for spotlight NPCs – the number of people who have shown that they cared about it is proof enough – and if you happened to get the right storylines then Tegwen as well (requires an Act with Wisdom sylvari going with the Vigil’s invasion in Orr, better yet if you go Priory and meet Tegwen and Carys, and also go with the baiting the Eye). But those like Tonn and Apatia were killed too soon (and too predictably) to hold any impact.

But when I read the OP, I am not seeing “kill Marjory once people begin to care about her” – I am saying “I hate how the ending played out and wished it was the earlier way, but hopefully this will come to pass in season 2!!!”

The Six Gods hold indestructible power. Though Melandru may die, her power will never be destroyed. Besides, the Pale Tree is immobile and is merely tied to the Dream. Melandru is capable of transforming other beings into plants, and has direct access to the Mists (which does more than telling “all possible futures” – which is false for the Pale Tree, she can only see the current future via the Dream – as the Mists actually connects all times and places).

To beat a god, either someone of close power is needed (demigod), or the god to be weakened a lot.

Melandru would kind of win easily. Even with the nerfing the gods’ lore has received in GW2. I mean, the mass AoE crippling/bleeding vines around Orrian Melandru statues is just remnants of her divine magic lingering in Orr after a thousand years. When a god can wipe out an entire peninsula (or regrow it) in an instant… yeah, Melandru wins.

Aethelbert.1497:

Perhaps. If the dialogue or the supposed cutscene was much longer, it could have been less cheesier.

It had nothing to do with length, but the dialogue lines and the plot sequence itself.

Aethelbert.1497:

Why must someone die? I do not insist on that. But still, when characters die, the other cast feels not so invincible. The main problem here is that you, as player, understand that nothing could ever happen to your character and living world characters. They are sort of immortal, overcoming everything that stands in their way, be it twenty, fifty, hundred enemies of all sorts, and with that in mind, player may could care less and less. But with the feeling that characters are not that immortal, very human and viewer/player/reader starts to empathize more. But that is only my opinion, you may disagree.

The player character will always be immortal in thus kind of gameplay, and will have nothing long-lasting placed upon them. It is a limitation of sorts to the gameplay. The living world characters already got that sense of immortality knocked out of them by nearly dying – as Kasmeer said if you talked to her in LA after doing the instance, until the moment of seeing Marjory lying still she had thought themselves untouchable due to all their successes.

Aethelbert.1497:

Well, if these stories are so many, why it bothers you so much here, in GW2?

What bothers me isn’t that it is in GW2. Go re-read my post and I spell why it bothers me. It bothers me because people feel it must be done, and that it is done poorly, making you, the player, not care.

If a character dies, the audience should care about the death – be it of a character they hated or loved, they need to feel from it. But when you have every other character dying off throughout the previous story, you stop caring. Make us care about NPCs before killing them off. It has been far too little with far too bland (not really bland, just cannot think of the right word) characters to care about them.

The Leviathans in GW2 are fish-like. The Leviathans in the Deeps from Factions were centipede or when like. They are very different. I think those we see in Factions will end up turning out to be Undersea Wurms which we see here and there in GW2, and " The Leviathan" may have been a title for a particular such when (I don’t think the frozen ones were called Leviathans, come to think of it).

The datamined ending takes place in the Breachmaker and in Dead End right afterward. You may think that it would have made a more compelling ending, however, that_shaman says what he found was in fact, far cheesier. Since we only have his word to go for it, I wouldn’t doubt it.

Why must someone die? Honestly, I’m sick and tired of all the characters-I-could-care-about dying before I get that chance, and so many have that now I honestly couldn’t give a kitten about GW2 NPCs. Having played the personal story in full thrice, covering each major story decision sans the Ogre racial sympathy, I have seen an overabundance of allied NPC slaughter and I couldn’t give a kitten about any newer ones because “oh, they’re just going to die once I start trying to like them and before I actually can.”

Furthermore, I have read, watched, and played MANY dramatic and compelling stories that didn’t have a single allied death. A friend’s death is not a requirement for character motivation or sorrow.

I am quite aware of the wiki’s article. I wrote a good portion of it, after all. Nonetheless, we still hold no evidence as for what will happen if the Elder Dragons stop consuming magic – does magic continue to increase? Will it stabilize? Perhaps the Elder Dragons don’t just consume and release magic but produce it too, resulting in magic lowering over the centuries into nothing? And if it does continue to increase, then what happens? Does it become volatile? Does it do anything at all?

We really have so little evidence to say anything with a strong amount of certainty. We can look at elementals for what happens when magic concentrates too much in a landscape (elementals are born in areas of higher concentrations of magic); we can look to Orr for an idea of how civilizations will become. But even these are minor sample sets, often with a lot of external influences (especially Orr – in the form of the Six Gods).

Rukh.9287:

No it’s pretty simple actually. The dragons come around every 10,000 years or so to eat magic, otherwise magic gets too powerful and living beings rip Tyria apart. This balance has lasted for who knows how many cycles.

We have no clue what happens if there would be no Elder Dragons to consume magic. The idea that magic would get too powerful and “living beings [would] rip Tyria apart” is pure unsupported player speculation. We don’t even know if new magic is introduced into the world – keep in mind that hibernating Elder Dragons release the magic they consume! So for all we know there is a set amount of magic, and it just goes from being within Elder Dragons to being throughout the world of Tyria – and if the Elder Dragons are killed, it’ll eventually just get to the “being throughout the world of Tyria” stage with the only change being a lot of magic is available.

It really isn’t a Mass Effect story yet because we don’t know what would happen if the Elder Dragons weren’t around. In Mass Effect, the Reapers were made because the races would all create robotic servants and said robotic servants would grow too powerful and overcome their creators – that this was a repeating cycle in of itself, so the Leviathans, whom thought themselves infallible, created the Intelligence and after some time contemplating the solution, it ended up doing the exact same thing that said robotic servants always did. In other words, the Mass Effect story is dumbed down to “people who think they’re untouchable will end up screwing themselves over, and screwing everyone else over in the process” taken to galaxy-ending scales. While they share the “world-ending” theme, the plot’s very different thus far – and still would be if magic ended up being too powerful for the races, or the world, to handle without the Elder Dragons’ presence (something I doubt we’ll see – logically – in GW2’s lifespan).

I would argue that Zhaitan is more of an Elder Dragon of Decay, rather than undeath. He’s called death/undeath because of his corrupting seemingly-only corpses. But as we learn throughout gameplay, he can corrupt living beings, plants, and landscapes. And everything about him is poison, decay, rotting – corpses corrupted are instantly turned into rotten husks no matter how well preserved (unlike actual undead, where the state of decay is unchanged).

The power the six gods obtained likely refers to them drawing power from Zhaitan to strengthen the Bloodstone(s).

My theory is that of there originally being a race of dragons – the first civilization, of which Glint came from (she is said to have “regained” her free will via the Forgotten’s ritual so it is heavily implied she was once flesh and blood), to fall to the Elder Dragons – and I suspect that the Elder Dragons are just Dragon-looking demons, as they honestly look and function akin to Imps (which hold draconic features, are demons from the Mists, and feed off of elemental magic, growing as they consume more magic).

The dragons in Cantha – Kuunavang, Glint, and bone dragons (Rotscale too) included – would be what remains of this ancient first cycle of life in Tyria, when magic was it it’s highest for the most time. Not from the times necessarily, but descendants of survivors – though I’d count Glint from that time given her lines in Edge of Destiny.

Yes, actually. Jennah reads Logan’s mind. Anise and Jennah attempt to read Kralkatorrik’s mind. Macha uses telepathy to Cobiah at various points.

It’s more than just making you see hallucinations. When I said “mind manipulating stuff” I didn’t mean “mess with minds” but “affect the mind” – this includes telepathy and mind reading, both shown in the novels directly.

redslion.9675:

Well, he was talking about flavour. If we have to be fair, Mesmers in GW2 seem more to be around warping reality than illusions and mind reading.

If you’ve read Sea of Sorrows and Edge of Destiny, you’d know they still do the mind manipulating stuff.

Well he’s called the jungle dragon because of his location. Zhaitan was called the Orrian dragon, and Kralkatorrik the desert dragon for the same reasons.

This said, however, Jeff Grubb mentioned a list of attributes the ED have in an interview ones – mentioning, iirc, “fire, water, vegetation, and elements”.

Oh, I’m sure they will. They’ll be the flowers sold at the flourists’ stalls.

Then we have Audrey II’s going about.

Feed me, Marjory!

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I’ve never said I’m always right and you’re not. I’ve never said that my theory is the only one who’s fitting. Yet my theory coherent and the only thing you say is “well X could be also caused by Y, so you are wrong”, which simply isn’t the case. And just because you are repeating your theories over and over again doesn’t make them any more valid. Period.

You have just proven that you have not actually read my posts.

Because that’s not what I’ve been saying. I’ve been saying that you’ve provided zero support for your “coherent” theory (which I disagree with, and even if you think it makes sense if no one else does then it’s obviously not coherent).

Furthermore, I’m not the one repeating me theories, because I have not ever once stated my theory. I’ve stated facts and even linked to the sources of said facts which argue against your “coherent theory”. But as I’ve said, you’ve yet to provide any support to argue for your theory.

And now what you’re doing is attacking me, rather than my argument, and I can only believe it is because you do not have any support for your theory so you’re trying to defame me to make yourself look right – I’m sorry, but that only works in politics.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

We never see Traherne in Jofast’s camp and get knowledge of the fight against the risen there. We do not meet the last king of Orr (which is not named in the dream) Reza in the royal tombs. We meet him in the artesian waters.

This is because as the Pale Tree says:

_Avatar of the Tree: But be warned—the future can change in the blink of an eye. _

What we see is not the future, but a future. It is a possible future – just like with the Infinity Ball storyline, where beings from the future (steam creatures, destroyers, and the PC’s future self) come from a possible future but the future.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Your whole argumentation is drawing circles after circles leeding nowhere.

My argument leads somewhere. It leads to stating that you’re making assumptions with no basis. Which you have yet to disprove.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

As example: Ofcourse the Sylvari aren’t a product of evolution. They where born from a Tree just a few years before. There hasn’t been something like this whatsoever.

Treants are born from trees, being trees themselves. Stalkers are very humanoid, though we don’t know what they’re “born” from. And honestly, in a world full of magic, why couldn’t natural magic effect evolution? I mean, hell, elementals come about from the land itself because of concentrations of magic.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

The next thing is the leaving the Dream point. They can leave the Dream but not because the Dream lets them. And the Dream is no actual place you can go to, that’s completely obsolete. The Dream is like the Matrix, as I’ve said before, and you can’t go into the Matrix. There is no kittening way to get into the Dream other than being invited by the Pale Tree.

But you CAN go into the Dream, that’s my point. How doesn’t matter – and we only know of one way, but that doesn’t omit them from being other ways. The Dream is a place you can physically access, we do so in the personal story, so it isn’t like the Matrix.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

If the Dream would just be some sort of magical thingie within the mists, the Sylvari would have to establish a connection to the Dream but they are born with this connection.

Why do you think that they would have to establish a connection? Maybe the Pale Tree establishes that connection for them. You are making statements that hold no basis in canon lore.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

And as I’ve said, I’ve not found anything about the connection between Melandru and Sylvari. Not. A. Single. Clue.

And you have yet to provide a single connection between Mordremoth and the sylvari. Not. A. Single. Clue. You only provide baseless assumptions, no evidence.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Furthermore, your whole argumentation is based on finding a loophole in my argumentation yet you couldn’t convince with facts either.

I already provided numerous facts, and in fact I have been repeatedly providing facts. Are they fullproof? No. There’s none either way, really. But at least I’ve been providing support, while you’ve been providing thin air.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

At last, the things you mention are mostly flawed also and I’m getting tired of proving you wrong.

But you have not proven me wrong! NOT ONCE! Nor have you given any form of evidence. You’re pulling arguments out of no where, out of your kitten able kitten !

Direksone.3867:

Haven’t read all the posts, but are you still speculating if it is Mordremoth or not? While we do not know Scarlet’s true ‘end game’, aside from waking up the Dragon I believe it has been confirmed that it is Mordremoth, by Arenanet. Woodenpotatoes and Mattvisual also said on their podcast a few weeks ago (when the patch hit) that they have been told weeks before that by ANet that they were going to reveal another Dragon, specifically Mordremoth.

The confirmation was not on the voice, but the dragon that woke up – in the cinematic. There’s no question that Scarlet woke up Mordremoth. But there is question on who that voice was. Nothing confirms that the voice is Mordremoth.

Direksone.3867:

Ah alright. Yea I can see why you’re speculating who this entity is, but it probably is Mordremoth as that would be the most obvious and ANet is not known for very strong story thusfar with this game. It’s probably not as deep as people want it to be.

It’s less “deep” and more “wide” to connect things to different groups. Which fits what Anet said they wanted to do – they don’t want another Abaddon where everything ends up being tied to one person (in this case, the Elder Dragons).

Which is something people tend to do (connecting everything to ED).

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Well, Scarlet did awake a dragon and she knew she was going to wake one. So the question has to be asked: Who would benefit from the awakening of a dragon?
The only possible answer I know is that the dragon (probably Mordremoth) was the one who forced her to disturb the Ley Lines. I don’t think the Pale Tree was lying simply because that wouldn’t fit into the (not thrilling) storywriting of ANet.

If it was an ED making Scarlet’s moves, then it breaks the entire methodology of the Elder Dragons. They corrupt and consume, yes, but they don’t use technology. The closest we’ve ever seen them use in terms of technology is pistols and rifles. Even with corrupted Inquest and thus the knowledge of how to use so many fancy gismos – and the gismos being right next to them.

If Scarlet was in any fashion directly by any Elder Dragon, then we have for the first time an Elder Dragon using more than your basic zerg tactics (as honestly, that’s what the Elder Dragons do – zerg target A; zerg target B; zerg target C). Chose a target strategically, maybe trap them with no way out, then overwhelm them.

It isn’t a bloodstone as the Bloodstones are red and more crystal-like.

And the Fountain of Truth would be closer to where the graveyard is now, I believe, as it was uphill and east of Shaemoor (in fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the fountain in the graveyard is meant to be the Fountain of Truth….).

IIRC, we’re told that stone in the throne room holds GW1 significance, but no one’s figured it out yet. Honestly, the only thing that pops into my mind is the little platforms you summon druids from in GW1, as the carving designs are a bit similar (but not by much).

Considering that the Cataclysm is outright said to have had no affect on Zhaitan (to paraphrase Jeff Grubb’s wording: “mere wrinkles in the worlds crust would have no effect on an Elder Dragon”), I would be utterly shocked if the Jade Wind affected a supposed Elder Dragon – let alone for two Elder Dragons to be so close to each other like you brought up (remember that Cantha is much smaller than Tyria).

Also, Glint did not give the Crystal Sea its name – lorewise, we don’t know why the Crystal Sea was called such, I believe; design wise, it would be named after the Crystal Desert, which is called such because it is said the sand is in fact small broken crystals (and we can see some non-broken ones in Elona Reach) – later it’s told that the Crystal Desert even held some of Kralkatorrik’s crystallized blood.

And nothing says that Abaddon intended – let alone ordered – the charr (not char) to use energies from the “mountain range” – or that he knew about Glint, actually.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

There is however still some flaws with your explanation. Why is the Nightmare Court agressive against all other creatures? Why do they all behave “bad”? It’s not like you can’t hate when following Ventari’s Teachings.

They’re not aggressive against all creatures. For example, they’re allied with Inquest and Bandits in Brisban (and make deals with Inquest in Sparkfly). And their aggressiveness that exists is there to spread negative emotions into the Dream of Dreams, ergo spreading the Nightmare (as that is what the Nightmare is – negative emotions and memories within the Dream – as explicitly stated already ).

And not all Courtiers act ‘bad’ either

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

When we perform this ritual, Illyra stands directly next to the Risen Chicken used as a guinea pig. There is a noticeable change in the chicken as denoted by Illyra, but Illyra’s personality is fully unchanged.

She isn’t part of the Nightmare Court, so your argumentation is obsolete.

But you argue that all sylvari are dragon minions. So therefore all sylvari would be affected by this ritual. It’s what your own argument entails!

That’s simply not true. If you put the Shatterer on this altar, he would be cured, same as Glint got cured but his body wont change a bit. Illyra is a descendant of a dragon, thus she is immune to all other corruption. Yet she is not mentally corrupted. Hence, she isn’t cured because she isn’t infected.

Your argument isn’t making sense. You are effectively saying:

“Subject is A, thus she is B. Subject is not C, thus is not A. Therefore she cannot be not-B, because she is not C.”

“Descendant of a dragon” doesn’t exist. Minions cannot reproduce (another argument, one can argue, for why the Pale Tree and sylvari are not dragon minions). This is stated in the skritt storyline and throughout Orr in the open world – dragon minions can only reproduce if they were corrupted while pregnant. No reproduction = no descendants. Minions are not “descendants”, and “descendants” of minions that were corrupted while pregnant are also corrupted (see the various Risen Spiders and Drakes in Orr).

You are saying all sylvari are dragon minions, ergo they can be cleansed because they are dragon minions. If you’re saying that they’re dragon minions but cannot be cleansed, then this means that they’ve been cleansed. But you’ve offered no reason for why they could be cleansed dragon minions – you say that they’ve been created as “non-fanatic minions” (effectively dragon minions with full out amnesia) just so they can be corrupted later… though this makes no logical sense in tactics.

Your argument is condradictory and illogical in every meaning of the words. It makes no sense.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

1. Source? Why can’t the sylvari be a product of evolution. You’re making arguments without providing any reason. You’re effectively pulling kitten out of your kitten .
2. Because its manifestation comes from the surroundings, as shown in the tutorial – think of it like the Titans from GW1, whom hold the same base appearance (large three-legged beasts) but their appearance changes based on the surroundings. Just like how the first emblem appears to be made from water (iirc).
3. Which doesn’t refuse that it can happen. And your earlier mentions of them fighting is outright wrong (Tamias doesn’t even say this). Though they’re in the same zone, they never once cross paths. So of course there won’t be hybrids in the open world yet.
4. Which relates to sylvari, how? They can leave the Dream. And “not all sylvari are tied to it in the first place;:”wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malyck furthermore, there are non-sylvari tied to it. Furthermore, who says something has to control the Dream. Think about it. Who controls Tyria? No one. Who controls the Mists? No one. So why must someone control the Dream, which like Tyria and the Mists is an actual location one can travel to? And even IF someone does control the Dream – an assumption you create from nothing – why must it be an Elder Dragon? Why can’t it be a Spirit of the Wild? Why can’t it be that Tyria itself is sentient (as both Captain Whiting and the Pale Tree implies that the land holds sentience)? Why can’t it be that it’s just the domain of a forest spirit like Urgoz? Why do you presume the only possibility is an Elder Dragon? You just state one thing, then leap a dozen feet to “Elder Dragon!” without providing a connection between the two.
5. Right, so why just suddenly leap to Elder Dragons? You admit you know don’t know, so “Elder Dragons!” is it then?
6. Not all insanity can be cured. And even in the cured cases, they aren’t back to how they were originally. And why do you even know they have a destiny – there’s no evidence for anything but what they all innately feel – the call to fight the Elder Dragon. Courtier or Dream, all sylvari fight the Elder Dragons. So this means they’re minions of them? What?
7. Wrong. The Pale Tree predates Ventari’s Tablet. The Dream predates the Pale Tree. The Pale Tree’s ties to the Dream by all indications predates the Ventari’s Tablet as well. So your conclusion makes no sense.
8. “previous nine” – come again?
9. So then why does Malyck hold no Dream? Why does the Dream tie to the White Stag? Why is the Dream a physical location? Maybe it being tied to the Pale Tree is why it is “forced onto” the sylvari, and it is the Pale Tree that could accept or deny it. Why must there be some mysterious entity forcing the Dream on the sylvari in the first place? Maybe they’re tied to it because they’re magical and living in the Maguuma which itself is known to be magical (for multiple reasons).
10. The Inquest want the Elder Dragons to ravage the land so that they can return afterwards (believing they can survive the Elder Dragons) so that they can rule the renewing world. There’s one group who benefits from the waking of an Elder Dragon. This is also an act that the mursaat attempted, too. There’s another group, if they still live (which we’re told there are future plans for them so it’s likely they do). And wrong about the entity always being with her. What Vorpp says is that everything in the machine was what she brought with her, meaning not that it was “always with her” but rather that it was “with her at that time”. There is a VERY big difference on this.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Primordus is awake, Mordremoth is not. As I have suggested earlier, the Dream is being influenced by the Pale Tree, which used Ventari’s teachings as guideline for the new race. That’s the reason why the Dream is “good”. However, the Nightmare has also a source. The source of the “light” side is Ventari’s Tablet, the source of the “dark” side is… Well, it could be Mordremoth. Furthermore, the Sylvari are created to be like humans; and humans have a free will. If Primordus would spawn humanoid beings and not actively control them, they could have a free will aswell.

Awake or asleep does not matter for corrupting

The Pale Tree may be influenced by Ventari’s teachings, but such things cannot remove dragon corruption. Few things can, and this is highlighted throughout the game. The source of the light is NOT Ventari’s Tablet. The Dream existed before the Pale Tree, this means it existed before the tablet.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

You’ve given the answer to your “facts” right away.
You’ve said that there are with dragonmagic corrupted plants out there. So why can’t the Sylvari be corrupted? Probably because they are already “blessed” with dragonenergy.
And it’s only logical that a dragonminion can’t be corrupted twice.
1. They see their master as master. Simple. They can’t serve 2 different masters.
2. All dragons are probably fighting each other since they compete for the same resources, magic. You would never give the enemy control over your units.
It’s an unnatural state for a being being corrupted by 2 different types of magic.

I don’t get how you can say that the only conclusion to go to for the sylvari’s “immunity” is to be corrupted already.
Why is it logical? We even see that it can happen twice.
1. We don’t know what mental changes happen. Plus, people can have two masters, two people they listen to. If you read manga, the manga “History’s Strongest Disciple Kenichi” actually just introduced a villain that has two masters who give somewhat contradictory orders and he still manages to follow both without disobeying.
2. There’s no indication that they’re in conflict. In fact, Captain Whiting’s words in Sea of Sorrows (I don’t have the book on me so I cannot quote but it’s near the end) states something along the lines (again, cannot quote word for word) that “the time of the Elder Dragon*s* is near.” He explicitly mentions dragon*s* – plural. Furthermore, the human nations of the world all compete for the resources – America and England both need oil, etc. yet we’re not all at each others’ throats.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Why do I think that Sylvari are dragonminions?

1. Sylvari = Wood People, Mordremoth = Wood Dragon
2. In the Sylvari story prologue, you have to fight the nightmare, in the form of a dragon
3. Sylvari can’t be corrupted. So they are either immune or already a dragonminion
4. The Dream is like the Matrix: All Sylvari are connected to it but noone knows the source or the reason for existence of the Dream
5. The Pale Tree has no natural source: We don’t know where the seeds are comming from but it has to be a strong (magical) source to being able to create a whole new species
6. The Nightmare behaves like the corruption does: Once you’ve fallen to the Nightmare, you can’t escape
7. The Nightmare is a part of the Dream, so it’s most likely that the Nightmare was it’s actual appointment. To clearify: The reason for the Pale Tree to fight the Dragons it has sensed is Ventari’s Tablet. If Ventari’s teachings are the reason for the Dream behaving like it does right now, what is the reason for the Nightmare to exist?
8. The Dream is neither established nor controlled by the Pale Tree; something more powerful has to be the source. And what is more powerful than the hive? The master of the hive. Probably an elder dragon named Mordremoth.
9. Simply the evolution: The Dream isn’t necessary for the Sylvari to survive. So why does it exist?
   And why are all Sylvari connected to the Dream by default? Probably to control them.
10. Why would Scarlet wake the elder dragons? The only reason is that Ceara was commanded to wake the dragon.

1. So the treants must be Mordremoth’s minions too, then? Because they’re trees.
2. Which is outright stated, multiple times, to be a representation of Zhaitan. Just like the emblem you can see on the waterfall when you first make a character and look at it – the emblem matching your biography option. The difference is that the Nightmare’s influence turned the emblem in to a threatening entity. Furthermore, if you look at the sylvari page on the official site you will note it says “A rare few sylvari have seen the shadows of the Elder Dragons in the Dream, warnings of the danger that menaces the awakened world.” – this is a direct mention to the tutorial, and explains it off from a OOC point of view that it is a warning of danger about the wakened world, not some subliminal hint to control by some malevolent entity being an Elder Dragon.
3. But as shown, we have cases that dragon minions being corrupted by other dragons’ energy is possible.
4. Which relates to Elder Dragons… how?
5. Which relates to Elder Dragons… how? You know there’s more than one powerful magic in the world. For all we know, the sylvari is the final gift of Melandru to the world.
6. Insanity works this way too. But how does the Nightmare mean “all sylvari”, exactly? Besides, those who fall to the Nightmare are still fighting the Elder Dragons and their minions (so sayeth developers, even though we never see this in-game, I think).
7. How do you get that the Nightmare is the “actual appointment” of the Dream? Also, the Ventari’s Tablet is not why the Pale Tree seeks to fight the Elder Dragons. The sylvari seek to fight the Elder Dragons for two reason – 1) the Dream tells them to (see the official site’s page on the sylvari), and 2) because the Pale Tree can feel the land suffering as the Elder Dragons attack (see her dialogue during A Light in the Darkness).
8. That’s a pretty big leap you make. With no basis for why an Elder Dragon is the master of this so-called hive. Besides, why can’t the Dream of Dreams be a natural phenomena in this world of magic and afterlives that mix into reality? And explain Malyck, whom holds no Dream of Dreams connection.
9. Which relates to Elder Dragons… how? And not all sylvari are connected to the Dream by default – see Malyck.
10. Why indeed, but just because she woke a dragon doesn’t mean that was her ultimate goal, which is hinted to not be anyways. And just because she woke a dragon doesn’t mean that she did so because she was a minion of the dragon.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

When we perform this ritual, Illyra stands directly next to the Risen Chicken used as a guinea pig. There is a noticeable change in the chicken as denoted by Illyra, but Illyra’s personality is fully unchanged.

She isn’t part of the Nightmare Court, so your argumentation is obsolete.

But you argue that all sylvari are dragon minions. So therefore all sylvari would be affected by this ritual. It’s what your own argument entails!

Tamias.7059:

A similar example would be Exemplar Salia of the Shining Blade, who has never seen any indication that the mursaat still exist. Logically, Lazarus the Dire was injured and alone, and probably would have died somewhere in the Tarnished Coast. And yet, you believe (as do I) that the mursaat will one day make their return, because that’s the obvious direction for the storytelling to take. So why that, and not this? I think you just don’t like the idea that sylvari are dragon minions, that it doesn’t fit with your own head canon or whatever.

Because unlike this, we actually have a hint that mursaat could still be around – ArenaNet explicitly leaving one alive is that hint. Furthermore, there’s other dialogue in the game which state that the mursaat always return when believed gone, and then as if to act as a prophecy states she thinks they’re gone for good.

But sylvari being dragon minions? Where’s your hints? That they’re made of plants? Well then I guess “this guy is also Mordremoth’s minion.”http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Seed_of_Corruption: Oh, and I guess that means that this thing is Primordus’ minion. Makes sense, they share elements! WRONG.

Where’s your hint? That the Dream of Dreams is a hive mind? Killeen outright states that it isn’t (as I stated earlier in this thread, quoting even, as I had done so in a previous thread towards you). So, again, not a hint.

[spoilers]“It isn’t mind reading, and we aren’t all connected into one big mass mind. However, before coming into this world, all sylvari are united in the Dream of Dreams.”
Killeen, Ghosts of Ascalon – Page 120[/spoilers]

So where are these so called hints!? You say they are there but never mention what they are! Every one I’ve ever seen presented has counter arguments. Every one I’ve seen is either outright debunked or made unlikely by the evidence presented to us. This is a game, listen to what the universe hints – and it hints that sylvari are not dragon minions.

Tamias.7059:

What I want to know is this: what’s your theory? You’ve very quick to kitten on the theories of others (gleefully so, in some cases), but what do you have that’s better, that makes more sense both logically and narratively? Tell me, Konig – the seeds Ronan found, the Pale Tree spawning the sylvari just as the Elder Dragons awoke, the sylvari immunity to dragon corruption, the Dream and the feeling of purpose and compulsion to fight the dragons, Caithe and Faolain, Scarlet and Mordremoth, the collective destiny of the sylvari – how do you explain it all?

There really isn’t enough hints anywhere that cannot be debunked elsewhere to really hold water to the origins of the sylvari. The theory that they’re a sentient weapon made during the previous dragon cycle (or shortly after) to awaken for the next (aka this) makes a lot to sense to me – but not in that them being dragon minions. As I said in my first post to you in this thread, if you removed the dragon minion addendums that you littered your first posts with, the theory makes sense.

I see no ties to Mordremoth, however, nor do I see a reason why there needs to be such. Even to Scarlet, as I’ve pointed out elsewhere.

Tamias.7059:

This isn’t really the appropriate place to have yet another argument about whether sylvari are dragon minions (since it isn’t really what this thread is saying anyway), but this point is relevant so I want to ask how you can say with such certainty that dragon minions can be corrupted by multiple dragons. There’s Risen and Destroyers in Mount Maelstrom, and there’s Destroyers and Icebrood in Lornar’s Pass, but we never see one hybrid minion.

The risen and destroyers never meet; the icebrood and destroyers never meet. Honestly, there aren’t many icebrood in Lornar’s Pass and even then they’re a whole half of the longest zone away – the risen for whatever reasons avoid Mount Maelstrom (maybe they’re crappy climbers) and the destroyers never leave the mountain.

Tamias.7059:

We don’t know how the experiments in the Crucible of Eternity were conducted, and we don’t know the level of difficulty Kudu had in creating the hybrids. Surely it required more than just putting them next to each other and waiting for it to happen – if it were so easy, we’d see hybrids out in the open world.

If we ever see the dragon minions interacting, then maybe we will see hybrids. Though it is also possible that a champion is required to corrupt the others (simple minions, Sons of Svanir aside, seem hardly capable of spreading corruption unless there’s a large concentration of them).

But even so, the experiments prove that it is possible.

Tamias.7059:

Question: how do you think this theory, about sylvari being dragon minions came about? Why do you think so many people believe it. I know it’s not because one person had the idea and others found it compelling. It seems to me that a lot of people arrived at it independently – and that’s because that’s what ANet seem to be hinting at, deliberately.

Draxynnic explained this very well, as well as why all previous evidence for the theory has been debunked, here.

I see nothing where ArenaNet hints at sylvari being dragon minions. If anything, all I see is ArenaNet hinting that sylvari are the antecedent of dragon minions. And I’ve looked at this from a purely neutral position before. And as Draxynnic explains in the post I linked, it actually was convincing, until its pillars of arguments got knocked out from beneath it.

Tamias.7059:

You’re thinking way too hard about lore in trying to state a clear and complete set of rules on dragon corruption when we have a working sample size of what, four?

Four out of six. That’s a pretty good sample size when we have a maximum amount of samples. Furthermore, we’ve been told on multiple occasions that there are both similarities and differences between the Elder Dragons (and champions/minions). And what the sylvari lack is everything that’s similar between the Elder Dragons and their minions.

Honestly, I think you and others look too hard to try to argue your stance, which comes out as FenrirSlakt says.

Tamias.7059:

You’re ignoring the fact that this is a game, and unlike, real life, if the universe seems to be dropping hints, you should sit up and listen.

What hints are there, for I see not a single one. All I see are evidence that point to the opposite of your so-called hint, and my I state that you and HHR (and all others) have yet to show these hints without being countered by actual cases in-game.

Kalavier.1097:

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

Kalavier.1097:

Um, they never said dragons could corrupt other dragon minions.

In the Crucible of Eternity Subject Alpha uses the powers of 5 Elder Dragons.

I’m fairly sure Subject alpha is an inquest science experiment and NOT an actual dragon minion.

Plus ingame he only uses three ‘dragon’ themed attacks as I recall.

Kudu was trying to create a dragon champion (and in turn other dragon minions) that he could control. Subject Alpha was a failed experiment in that Kudu couldn’t control it.

Also, while we only see names for after three dragons (Jormag, Primordus, and Mordremoth), we see him rising Risen and using Risen Tendrils and imprisoning people in purple crystals. So there’s five. Heck, for all we know the Alpha’s Essence may be a tie to the DSD – if one follows the theory that the Scelrite weapons are tied to the DSD.

Tamias.7059:

This is a reply I wrote to another thread:

This has almost definitely been brought up before, but now we have a hypothesis connecting Abaddonian magic and the Dragons, it may be worth thinking about again: we still don’t know what all those crystals from the Searing, which was born from magic said to be similar to that of the Cataclysm, are all about. Kralkatorrik wasn’t designed until long after the Searing crystals, but it’s odd that they gave his corruption (the Dragonbrand) a similar appearance to the Searing crystals, and put them in the same region. Wouldn’t that cause some confusion for new players? Unless, of course, it’s intentional – and the two are related.

Got me thinking, what other examples of “Abaddonian magic” do we know of? The only other examples I could think of was the Jade Wind and the Affliction. Completely transforming and corrupting the landscape like that isn’t too dissimilar to how the Elder Dragons seem to work. Is it worth thinking about?

As I pointed out in that thread there’s very little likelihood of ties to Abaddon with the Searing’s magic, beyond the original cauldron being given to him.

The Jade Wind was caused by Dwayna’s magic being twisted by Shiro’s malevolence. I doubt they’d retcon something established for so long just to add in a dragon (they never retconned anything about the Searing’s origins, since it was just unknown). Furthermore, as I pointed out recently here there is a very big difference between the Jade Wind and Affliction to dragon minions. You only see similiarities when you look at the surface, but dig a foot and you’ll start noticing differences. Just because on the surface there’s some physical alterations doesn’t mean there is similarity. I mean, hell, an elementalist can freeze water – suddenly, Elder Dragon!

You’re starting to sound like the folks who try to connect everything to the Elder Dragons…

The Searing was never said to be similar to that of the Cataclysm. In fact, the magic of the Searing’s age mentioned is older than the mention of the Cataclysm’s magic’s age.

Cataclysm = powered by magic before the Bloodstone (said by one who thought no magic existed by 1 BE).
Searing = powered by beings long fallen asleep

Furthermore, we’ve gotten far more hints to the Searing’s magic, namely that it is NOT tied to Abaddon or the titans. While, yes, the titans gave the charr the Cauldron of Cataclysm, the Flame Legion enchanted and duplicated the caldron many times – we see a minimum of 4 searing cauldrons in GW2 alone, and one could consider the cauldron seen during Ruins of Surmia and the one seen in the Heirophant’s Stronghold a separate one from the Cauldron of Searing given that the Cauldron of Searing never moved in 250 years (or it was put back but that’d just be plain weird). I wouldn’t doubt the one in the Heirophant’s Stronghold is the Cauldron of Cataclysm, honestly.

For reference sake, the source on the Flame Legion enchanting:

Researcher Fero: Well, braid my ears! Those ancient Flame Legion poobahs may’ve been evil, oppressive oiks, but they knew how to enchant a weapon.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blast_from_the_Past

Knowing that the Elder Dragons radiate magic, I would not doubt that the Flame Legion did to Kralkatorrik what the asura and Six Gods did to Primordus and Zhaitan (respectively) – that they siphoned off of Kralkatorrik to enchant the cauldrons.

But again, the fact that the Flame Legion did some enchanting puts a big “not likely” to connections to Abaddon and the Searing’s magic’s origin – in either knowing or causing.

terminatorkobold.6031:

Besides that where are the Comissar, Shaman and Foulbear Kraal? Disappeared totally or just out of schedule and map depedant?

Any not mentioned were said to be map dependent. This makes sense for those three given that there’s a long event chain for them iirc (there is for Foulbear at least). It would be weird anyways for Foulbear to happen only once every (roughly) 6 hours (ideally with the schedule). Though for that reasoning, the Megadestroyer’s a bit odd.

Though I’m not quite sure why the world bosses have to sit 15 minutes from each other (counting all three tiers) and why they cannot overlap. Have the low world bosses be 20 minutes between each rather than 30 (given that they each have 10 minute timers, iirc, unlike the “middle tier” world bosses which have 15, or in the case of Claw of Jormag, 20 minutes). Then have a middle tier world boss happen every 15 minutes – doubling the time. I think it’s perfectly fine if players cannot go to them back to back, given that allowing such creates zergs that make the current balancing to be very easy overall, so splitting up the world boss zergers amongst bosses wouldn’t be a bad thing. It risks some goes being few to no players but I see no issue to this.

Dwayna’s magic doesn’t corrupt, so I would argue no. Elder Dragons consume all kinds of magic and twists it to their purposes – the only kind of magic that seems exempt is the Forgotten’s magic (which I suspect is due to their ties to the Mists; I further theorize that the gods would thus be immune to corruption for the same reason).

Could an Elder Dragon be sucking up any magic that solidified the Jade Sea/Echovald Forest? Sure, but only if there was residual energy.

Well, I highly doubt that there’d be such in Cantha, given the DSD and Mordremoth respectively, but the mental thought’s rather neat.

Urgoz is a spirit forest. While this doesn’t explain his origins in explicit details, we’re told of such spirits elsewhere, such as the Spirits of the Wild and even Zhu Hanuku (described as a sea spirit). As such I would say no, he is not a dragon champion. Not unless you want to start arguing that the Spirits of the Wild are also dragon champions. Furthermore, Urgoz was not always malevolent – he was driven mad because everything he cherished (the Echovald Forest) was turned to stone in the Jade Wind (same reason the Wardens went mad) – it would be like you lost your entire family right in front of your very eyes, and not by them dying but being turned to stone, never to return to life.

My points still stand though. Even though we can see cases of powerful beings enslaving and changing another (you forgot Abaddon and the Margonites, btw), if you look past that simple description you see there are many differences in most cases.

The confusion in your argument came from “was Adelbern’s sword forged from Zhaitan’s blood or not?” and how the final sentence was worded… a subliminal point was made.

draxynnic.3719:

It’s interesting to note on this, in fact, that in Scarlet’s lab there’s a scribbling about humans always “getting in the way”. However, we have no knowledge prior to the Jubilee of humans specifically having ever done anything to inconvenience Scarlet.

If Lazarus was influencing Scarlet’s mind, is it possible that this note came from Lazarus rather than Scarlet? (Although it is worth restating that the Jubilee was a target of opportunity, not the primary target.)

Good point to make. There’s really nothing out there except arguably Dhuum whom had humans foiling any plans beyond Lazarus that could still be alive. Not only for when Lazarus swore vengeance, but also with the War in Kryta.

Well, except for the “mysterious stranger” who commissioned the creation of R.O.X., N.O.X., and P.O.X. by Zinn.

draxynnic.3719:

Ironically, though, you can turn that around – Glint was the puppetmaster through the whole Prophecies, but was her real objective to arrange for the Door of Komalie to be properly sealed, or was she using Abaddon to settle a grudge with the mursaat and closing the Door of Komalie was just a requirement of minimising the collateral damage?

Well Glint does confess that the titans caused more damage than she thought they would.

@Draxynnic: True, but the argument that HHR was holding is that they’re not acting like dragon minions because Mordremoth was sleeping, and because they don’t know that they’re dragon minions (which makes no sense, honestly, when knowing the nature of dragon minions as much as we do). He wasn’t arguing they’re purified dragon minions.

@Mickey: The Great Dwarf didn’t create stone dwarves, per se. Whether the Great Dwarf is even a physical being is called into question, and therefore so would be the case of the Great Dwarf creating anything.

I doubt Magdaer and Sohothin were made by pieces of Zhaitan, to be honest, if for no other reason than the fact that unlike the Sanguinary Blade, Magdaer and Sohothin do not make dragon minions – they make something else that acts like dragon minions.

Afflicted were just putrid undead in a sense, their bodies were not twisted into some element like the dragon minions are, but their bodies became diseased and seemed to have exploded within the skin (or there were biles, deformaties, etc.). They are a far cry from dragon corruption. Furthermore, Shiro never did any of the mental alterations that Elder Dragons do – he did force spirits to his will, but this was a power of being an Envoy – the power to control souls, little different from Ritualists, honestly.

And no, no likelihood of Urgoz being a dragon champion – he’s a forest spirit who went mad from the Echovald Forest turning to stone. And the Jade Wind that Shiro used was powered by the gods’ magic, not dragons. Plus, Urgoz didn’t make creatures, nor corrupt them, he just drove them mad. Which is also a very far cry from Elder Dragon corruption (there was no physical alterations to the creatures maddened by Urgoz).

When you look at generals, sure, powerful beings can “corrupt like Elder Dragons and their champions” – but when you look at 1) how it’s done, 2) how they end up both physical and mentally the nthe only ones you get close to how the Elder Dragons corrupt is the Rite of the Great Dwarf (but again, the Great Dwarf may never have existed as a physical being), and Kanaxai (whom is a demon). The Foefire ghosts come close, but they’ve still got some good differences – though fewer differences than the sylvari do compared to Elder Dragons.

Never said you said they were going to, guess I should have been the clear one. :P

As to different maps – I think the megaserver may be a step in that direction, actually. While one wouldn’t think it would, just consider how much room they’re making by the megaserver. As is, we effectively have 51 versions of each zone and city active at all times. There’s 26 zones and 6 cities – so there’s effectively a minimum of 1632 maps always in existence on the servers. The megaservers’ purpose is to reduce this number – there will be no less than 5 versions of each map at a single time (one per EU language, then one for NA); 6 once the game goes live in China. That means a minimum of 192 maps once China goes live.

This doesn’t count for any current overflows/future “dynamically generated maps” or any dungeons. Nonetheless, that’s a substantial reduction of server loadout I would imagine. And with this, they can easily store versions of the old maps for instances (PS and LW should the later need to) to utilize because they now have much more room.

As to the whole “traveling between steps” – I think you’re making it overly convoluted. Take GW1 for example. Prophecies was the first to chronologically happen in lore, but you can at any point go back and forth between Prophecies and Factions which takes place immediately after, or even to Nightfall which is 3 years after Proph/Factions, and also to Eye of the North which is 3 years after NF. There’s no “glimpses into the past” and no issue with going into Beyond-affected zones then entering a mission.

Technically speaking anyways, the only thing that has progressed in the timeline is anything affected by the Living World. Orr zones? Fireheart Rise? They’re all “stuck in time” effectively, as they haven’t been altered. Beyond guild missions or the very few added mini-dungeons, at least. There is no need to explain the whole “look into the past” or whatnot, since this is all mechanical mumbo jumbo.

To your final question about all characters being commanders – the Living World would likely take them as such, in the “canon lore” but given how Anet wants to avoid spoilers and paradoxes they will do things like with Laranthir’s dialogue – he’ll only call you the Commander if you did Forging the Pact, and will mention the ongoing assaults on Orr if you hadn’t done Victory or Death. But chronologically, Zhaitan’s <s>dead</s> defeated before Scarlet by a year – Bobby Stein already confirmed this.

draxynnic.3719:

I’m pretty sure Kudu’s Monster is specifically called out as being the result of multiple corruptions. Probably used a Risen Giant as the starting point, but from what I recall (it’s been a while) it uses attacks that come from other dragons.

I specifically recall risen, icebrood, and branded themed skills. I don’t know if they’re named though. I don’t recall any plant/earth themed skills, and it’s been a while so I’m not sure on fire but I’m pretty sure there’s destroyer themed skills.

@KrisHighwind: The hostility between Elder Dragons themselves isn’t known. All we know is that if dragon minions cross paths, they will fight each other. But most dragon minions are mindless too (or close to). We also know that the Elder Dragons really don’t give a kitten what their minions do, like if they kill each other or something of the like. They only starts caring when their champions start dying.

Jure Simich.6154:

Or it could show more than one ley-line, since what was under LA was a ley line nexus, IIRC.

That would be overly confusing, especially since we have heard since then from developers that this is what players, not characters, see. So why confuse players? Furthermore, a long while back Colin hinted that the jungle dragon (aka Mordremoth) was tied to the Maguuma Jungle.

The arid place isn’t likely to be Brisban, btw, but more likely to be Dry Top or Ettin’s Back.

Exhibit C: Sylvari, without the Dream or Ventari’s Tablet’s influence, do not resemble dragon minion personality.

Sources:
There isn’t one specific example, you’d have to look throughout dragon minion dialogues and lines. Even excluding the Icebrood and Sons of Svanir, you see a huge amount of dragon minions actively revering their dragon – even those that shouldn’t even know its name speak it (due to the hive mind mentality). We see an uninfluenced sylvari in the form of Malyck which does not exhibit any of the fanaticism seen amongst Risen, Branded, Icebrood, and even – I believe via Edge of Destiny though I may be wrong here – Destroyers.

Exhibit Sylvari are unaffected by the Forgotten’s purifying ritual.

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_%28explorable%29

In the Forgotten’s path, you not only discover but perform an ancient ritual which removes the dragon’s corruption from the mind. This ritual was once performed on Glint and is explicitly stated to return the subject’s free will:

Warden Illyra: Yes. Yes! Look at these runes. The Forgotten were able to remove Kralkatorrik’s control over Glint.
Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.

When we perform this ritual, Illyra stands directly next to the Risen Chicken used as a guinea pig. There is a noticeable change in the chicken as denoted by Illyra, but Illyra’s personality is fully unchanged.

These four are the most common arguments for sylvari being dragon minions, but as you can see there is more evidence to support these “arguments for” actually being arguments against. So please tell me, HHR, what exactly are the arguments for if not these.

And before using Scarlet, allow me to state this: we hold no evidence to accurately support the Entity that invaded Scarlet’s mind being Mordremoth or connected in any way shape or form to Mordremoth. There are hints in the Aftermath instance (supported by previous actions and the Energy Probe maps on the Breachmaker) that Scarlet’s ultimate goal was not waking Mordremoth; that was just part of her goal, a big part but still not the final outcome she desired. As I explain and expand, even theorize on, here.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

1) You must be playing a different game than me, because what I see is “many points which count against the theory, and, as far as I know, none for it.”
2) The dragon minions have, and Edge of Destiny which gives you an inside look on various dragon minions. It isn’t mind control. Think of it more like, if you’ve played Mass Effect 2, Legion’s loyalty mission where you can rewrite the heretic geth’s personality – this isn’t mind control, because mind control is active. It’s brainwashing in its most powerful form (but not the amnesia kind); a passive act that doesn’t require constant active effort. You do it and its done.
3) Elder Dragons don’t need to be awake to “control” their minions – but seeing how they don’t control them, it wouldn’t matter anyways. All dragon minions are aware of their dragon and their “origins”.

You’re points hold no water and you seem to come at them from thin air. I shall, instead, source you for reasons why they cannot be Elder Dragon minions – of any Elder Dragon.

Argument A: Sylvari are “immune” to Elder Dragon corruption, in that they will die when touched with corruptive dragon magic. They are fully unique in this, though the Forgotten and mursaat have shown magic of preventing, and somewhat countering, dragon corruption.

Sources:

While the other races may be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, turned into undead minions or crystalline creatures of the Brand, the sylvari are never turned. Those born of the Pale Tree simply die before the corruption takes hold. Many sylvari believe that this is because they were born to battle the dragons, blessed with a certain protection against their most horrible powers. Some non-sylvari scholars state instead that the sylvari’s strange biology foils the corruption of the dragons. A few clever souls state that sylvari just taste bad to dragons. No one knows for certain which is the truth.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110815225850/http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/

Marshal Trahearne himself had the initial idea. Once he realized that Zhaitan can’t raise sylvari, he formed this squad to exploit that weakness.
->Why doesn’t Zhaitan’s magic work on sylvari?
Unknown at present, but the Pact’s top minds are working on it. If you ask me, we’re just too new to Tyria. The Elder Dragons haven’t figured us out yet.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marching_Orders#Dialogues

Here we have cases of explicit mention for Kralkatorrik’s and Zhaitan’s corruption. But similarly, we see many branded trees in the Dragonbrand, Ghosts of Ascalon mentioning even the grass itself becoming branded; and for Zhaitan in Bloodtide Coast we have Corrupted Trees and in Sparkfly Fen we have Corrupted Stumps. Which brings us to…

Counter-Counter Argument: The argument that they die because they are already corrupted by a different dragon fails because we know that creatures can be corrupted by multiple dragons. We have three examples of this in Crucible of Eternity via Kudu, Kudu’s Monster, and Subject Alpha. And the last explicitly has Mordremoth’s corruption so it isn’t a case of Mordremoth’s corruption being incompatible with the others’ either.

Exhibit B: It isn’t just a case of these dragons not corrupting plants, as has been argued. Using the examples in the previous argument, and the following dialogue:

->What are these corrupted trees?
Those foul things seemed to spring up when the Orrians invaded The corruptions are lethal and must be destroyed.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crusader_Aisling

->You’ve seen corrupted wildlife?
Oh yes, and we’ve seen them change after eating the dead fish. They become ill. They spread the Orrian curse. They corrupt the plants as well.
->Corrupted plants?
Yes. Corrupted plants wither to stumps. If you bring me one, I might be able to devise a way to reverse the corruption.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ayomichi

…we see that the dragons can corrupt plants.

Caveth.3268:

Leablo.2651:

Who is Mordremoth’s lieutenant and why will it be 1,000 times more powerful than Mordremoth himself?

Scarlet Briar was basically one of Mordremoth’s lieutenants and she was ten times more powerful than all of the dragons combined; she even destroyed Lion’s Arch. :p

We have no proof that Scarlet was corrupted by Mordremoth. Just sayin’.

Plus, unlike the Elder Dragons, she put all of her forces into attacking Lion’s Arch. Zhaitan just went “eh, I’ll send one of my many dozen lieutenants to take it out. Oh, he failed? Okay, I’ll wait 50 years and send another. Ah, that one failed to? Eh, who cares. I’ll send out a dragon this time. Ah, dead too? Well, I got plenty more where that came from, and oh so much time. I’ll wait for them to – OH SKRITT THEY’RE ON MY DOORSTEP! WTF HAXXORZ! WHY DO THEY HAVE ANTI-ELDER DRAGON GLITTER!? WHY DOES IT BURN!? IMBA! IMBA!”

I didn’t know this existed, and I even went to where the heirloom is…