Ah, there’s also the prophecy of breaking the tooth will signal there’s a hero to take on Jormag. Given by the Spirits of the Wild.
Edit: Also, the prophecy labeled “The forgotten god” by you? I’m 99% certain that the forgotten god mentioned is Abaddon, the prophecy is Nightfall. The constant note of “His” (thus making the not-yet-canon Arachnia, whom shouldn’t even be mentioned, unlikely especially since Arachnia is typically a female name), and all the talk about knowledge and wisdom kind of points to that, and the game is about Abaddon. The Lost Scriptures appear to be Scriptures of Abaddon, hence why the Margonites are so interested in them. Unless it is about Abaddon’s predecessor but that seems even more unlikely.
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I wouldn’t say “little to nothing is known” about the mursaat prior to 1070 AE.
That seems a lot more than “little to nothing” to be honest.
The only race not indigenous to Tyria are humans. At least that’s confirmed. They were brought by the Six Gods, and though said Six Gods may have brought other races, certainly not those that predate their time on Tyria (world). Which includes: jotun, seers, mursaat, dwarves, karka, djinn, giganticus lupicus, Elder Dragons; and possibly includes: tengu, charr, krait, forgotten, kodan, norn, ogre, at least.
Concrete proof will never exist unless they’re not native to Tyria. Same goes for everything else. Why should we believe they’re not native to Tyria when there is absolutely nothing to imply they’re not native to Tyria? By your argument, I can claim that Dwayna gave birth to Zhaitan.
Nightfall is specifically the return of Abaddon to Tyria, which never happened (although it came close). There’s also dialogue or official text somewhere referring to the Ascension of Kormir, which says that had she not absorbed Abaddon’s power when he was defeated, Nightfall would have happened regardless, which would suggest that it had not happened yet. This seems relatively unimportant, though.
The prophecy of Nightfall is just simply the “return of Abaddon”, actually. If you look here and here – it’s all very ambiguous but the former merely states “Now heretics see signs that their fallen god may be at work in the world again. His name has been eradicated from all history, burnished from all monuments, condemned as blasphemy—yet still, the servants of the unholy watch and wait. With sharpened blades and practiced spells, his followers await the return of their forgotten and forsaken deity.” while the latter merely states “A darkness grows across the land; one that will not easily be turned aside.” (the latter also stating a connection between Istan and Vabbi, and a separation of Kourna from Elona). All of this comes true.
The prophecy of Nightfall is, in its entirety, about:
All this comes to pass.
Even if you include the Asian background on Abaddon (here and here ), it never mentions a prophecy of his return to Tyria. The former just repeats that the followers wait for his return to Tyria, the latter just says that he intends to devastate Tyria (which he does).
As to the dialogue/document: that’s an interesting thing to say given that we, the players, explicitly see this happen.
Anyway, this is a prophecy in the sense that it is a prediction about the future. Whether or not it is discerned by “scientific” means is asking the wrong question, since in Tyria magic and science are intertwined (for example, the asura).
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. But prophecies, by definition, are scientific and not mystic/magical. Even if the two do intertwine, they are still different.
Oh, and to your original situation of work out the set of “rules” for prophecies – as I see it, there are four situations all (accurate/considered proper) prophecies utilize:
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Sons of Svanir uses nothing unique in their appearance that players cannot imitate (they do have unique skills mind you). I’ve certainly not seen such “rime” over their chests.
As to cooperation with icebrood – Jormag acknowledges worshipers, unlike other Elder Dragons, so this may be part of it. Though there are cases where the Sons of Svanir are taken as enemies of icebrood (the champion Corrupted Quaggan event in Frostgorge, for instance – when the quaggan’s transformed the Sons of Svanir leave saying nothing can control an icebrood; there’s dialogue in the large SoS fort there to hunt icerbood even (in order to learn from them), then there’s the personal story step with Omni, a corrupted wolf attacking Sons of Svanir in Hoelbrak).
Some Sons of Svanir are corrupted, but far from all, and I doubt most either.
I account the apparent lack of mentality change to the fact that the Sons of Svanir are already devout to Jormag – so the forced devotedness that gets added to dragon minions exists already.
The fact that Sons of Svanir choose to kill icebrood (the above and from the GuildMag interview with Jeff, Ree, and Scott where they say the Sons kill off female norn icebrood) kind of shows that they’re not corrupted, IMO.
As for missed prophecies, I can only think of one off the top of my head, though I’m not sure if the first really counts as a prophecy:
“Do not leave us. Palawa Joko will rise again, and we must prepare to fight him. Forever…”
“I fear the powers rising in the Crystal Desert. I feel Palawa Joko’s fingers in the sand, counting the hours we have left on this world.”
“The Dynasties still live in my dreams. There is another true-blooded heir…”
Lines said by Dynastic Spirits The first obviously came about, the second could be interpreted in multiple ways (even talking about the darkness the Desert Gate Guard refers to), and the last could be referring to a descendent of Turai or the Primeval Kings living, perhaps (former less likely given the name of the NPC).
And another after doublechecking: “The Crystal Desert will become a Crystal Sea… when the stars align and the darkness lifts.”
Said by Sky Scholars who prophecize via reading the stars. One could say this refers to Joko damming the Elon and the large river forming in the Crystal Desert, other lines often refer to Varesh and Abaddon (indirectly) as a darkness, thus this event would take place post-Nightfall.
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Sons of Svanir aren’t corrupted though. Their shamans slowly become corrupted due to siphoning Jormag’s power, and giving that power to make Sons of Svanir into Icebrood, but Sons of Svanir themselves (in a general case) aren’t corrupted.
But the forgotten ritual isn’t a plausible explanation for this class, since it would be, as I said in my post, a time paradox with the personal story. And thousands of players as this profession = the ritual was done thousands of times; keep in mind that the ritual requires the Altar of Glaust to be performed which means thousands of dragon minions were chained up and taken to Arah to perform the ritual thousands of times.
That just seems silly to imagine, honestly.
Then there’s the issues of physical appearance, making them unable to use standard racial customization options, requiring new sets of appearances per race – at which point, might as well be a new race which skips the present personal story and starts with a new one that takes place post-Zhaitan’s defeat.
so what about that pale tree was supposed to be a champion but because of being taken from “right place” and it grew up totaly outside of dragon influence, it became similar – but with free will?
by that logic is quite possible that “the other tree” also will not became champion because grew up outside the influence.
lets also not forget abour “harbringer” – Nightmare Court seems to belive that “the one coming out of other tree will bring destruction to the pale tree”
that may be also a huge hint in that case.
This cannot be because by being created as a dragon minion, unless the forgotten performed their ritual on them like applecup said, it would already have Mordremoth’s influence and corruption even before being planted.
And as said, the harbinger is already explained – his existence proved that the Nightmare Court don’t need to twist the Pale Tree to nightmare, they can just go twist another, less defended, tree.
Where does it say/show that the dragons don’t care about the actions of their minions? Also I thought that minions were given the will of their masters, so if they show hostility to different minions, it would make sense that it comes from the dragons hostility to each other.
An interview with ArenaNet, actually. This one specifically with Jeff Grubb, Ree Soesbee, and Scott McGough. It was stated when asked about female norn “not returning” when going off to face icebrood when men return as icebrood (per the Edge of Destiny novel). Their response was that the Sons of Svanir kill female icebrood and Jormag doesn’t care that “the red ants are killing the black ants.”
“Jormag doesn’t care. Jormag really does not care. It’s as if ants that are going off, the red ants and the black ants, that’s nice. But the Sons of Svanir…”
As to minions being given the “will of their master” – only so much that they become fanatic in serving their master. But even then, the weaker minions are too mindless to strategically go about serving their dragon, and the smarter ones can even put their master in danger or believe they’re trying to free themselves from them (as seen with the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan and Kellach respectively).
Since when do we see anyone other than ArenaNet themselves as Loremaster
Good question. Honestly, people considered folks like Quintus Antonius a loremaster before anyone at ArenaNet ever called themselves a loremaster. In fact, only one developer has ever called herself or others a loremaster, and that was Angel McCoy. Every other use of the term in the GW community has been referring to the more knowledgeable individuals of the lore community.
If the Sylvari were intended as minions then this is what would be referred to as a plot twist. When you write a story you don’t provide huge amounts of information to give away a future plot twist, because then it’s not a plot twist. You do sometimes leave a few little hints that, if noticed, someone might predict the twist.
While I can see where you’re coming from, the issue is that ArenaNet has provided evidence – not fullproof but evidence nonetheless – against the theory. A plot twist works if you make it seem like something else, not outright give evidence against the twist (in this case, sylvari being dragon minions – but outright stating that they’re here to fight the Elder Dragons and die when a dragon tries to corrupt them).
That’s not a plot twist, that’s retroactive continuity. A plot twist would be a case like Labwan turning out to be a risen, a poorly done one albeit. Sylvari turning out to be dragon minions is more of an asspull (because those “little hints” aren’t really hints since as you said, they’ve been debunked).
The Pale tree Sylvari are not ‘currently’ minions partly because Mordremoth had not awakened, and therefore was not asserting influence to make them his minions. Now he’s awake, the walls in the Sylvari’s mind will provide protections against his influence. These walls might also be the reason that Sylvari appear to be immune to the corruption of the other Dragons.
Svanir. Drakkar. Great Destroyer. EN destroyers.
An Elder Dragon does not need to be awake to assert influence to their minions.
These won’t be major NPC’s from the base game however, in order to not effect the personal story.
Personal Story takes place in the past, this has been officially confirmed, so that wouldn’t matter. Just sayin.
If it’s common for minions coming close to each other to get into a fight, I’d think it’s a safe bet to assume it’s direct hostility.
It isn’t common, as shown by how we never see or hear of it – we only know they’d attack each other from an interview question.
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OK, I guess I’m just poor, and don’t make money as easily as you guys. Yes, silver is important to me as I only tend to make 1g or maybe 2g per day with my normal playing. I have about 31g right now, after spending 70g on gems. That 31g would have taken about 2 weeks, except I got an exotic drop that I sold for 6g recently.
Seriously? I make money far slower than that and I don’t mind WP costs. I think I’d be lucky to get 1g in 3 days unless I intentionally go about to make money (like running a bunch of dungeons in one day) which is rare. But I spend money fast enough too.
Only time WP costs bothered me was when the Scarlet invasions were new and I was WP’ing after every event practically to keep active in the meta. But it didn’t bother me then as the WP reduction from the election was in place.
Wouldn’t work for mechanical reasons more than lore reasons.
On the lore side, for sylvari there’s nothing to say that it is the Pale Tree’s sylvari only that are immune – we have no indication that Malyck’s tree isn’t. This is also a mechanical issue. Secondly, it would be a requirement for the Forgotten’s ritual to be used, otherwise they’d be mentally twisted as well, which is why there are no “good guy dragon minions” beyond Glint (whom underwent the ritual).
This creates one of the mechanical issues: they cannot be of this ‘class’ for the personal story (time paradox issue), which in turn means that they cannot exist for 95% of the game (basically, for all of the non-LW).
Another mechanical issue is appearance – they cannot use the same character creation methods because twisted by the Elder Dragons means their bodies also change. This is the same reason why having an undead race would be hard to have. In fact, the idea you have is better as a race than a profession (since the dragon minions themselves have their own professions, just with an elemental theme attached), but you’d hit the issue of either “has to have multiple race frames” or “is restricted to a single former race”.
Overall, it sounds like you just want a dark knight kind of profession – and ArenaNet said that all players will be the “good guys” no matter what. Closest you’ll get is necromancy.
I didnt say with a word that the GW1 undead are Zhaitans servants. I only pointed out that Orr, that happens to sit on top of a slumbering elder dragon of undeath has a lot of undead issues after the cataclysm. The place is practicly ripe with necromantic undertones, especially after the biggest surge of magical energies sunk the land.
Additionally before the Cataclysm, we dont even know for sure if Khilbron was a necromancer of great skill and power. Even if the elder dragon didnt feel the sinking of Orr right above himself, Orr could have been influenced by such an immense necromancy-themed power resting below.
What you said was that you didn’t believe it to be a coincidence that two undead situations happened in the same place, implying that one way or another, the Cataclysm and Zhaitan affected each other. I stated that they didn’t by all indications – we have developer confirmed fact (edit: odd, that interview got shortened for some reason…) that the Cataclysm didn’t affect Zhaitan, and by the mentality of dragon minions, the same can be said for vice versa.
Zhaitan is only a “necromancy-themed power” in how it corrupts. When Elder Dragons are sleeping and seeping out magic, that magic is very general – as proven by the fact that the original asura gates held no fire-attribute, and the Bloodstone had no more necromancy tied to it than any other form of magic.
Undead (also Risen & Shiro’ken) – When a soul/spirit is forced back into a body, it becomes a type of undead. The body might not be the original body of the victim (as seen in Shiro’ken). These undeads are capable of thoughts and feelings. But they rarely have full control of their actions. That means an undead father might end up killing his own daughter and son, because he cannot control himself.
This isn’t fully true. Even ignoring some cases of risen, not all undead seem to have a soul. There seem to be two types of undead, in the general sense: mindless undead, and sentient undead. The former appear to be soulless (like most Orrian undead in GW1), the latter appear not (like most Awakened in GW1).
Not all risen have souls, this is outright confirmed with Romke and his crew, as well as the crusader’s spirit in SW Mount Maelstrom who mentions her body is now a risen. Only the more powerful risen appear to have souls, as they are the only ones who show having souls. Romke and his crew’s bodies are weaker risen.
Now liches are usually undead themselves. Most liches does have a master. So the way I see it, liches are just the more powerful version of the undead. The “grand master” put liches in charge of their undead army.
There may be liches that are independent and doesn’t have a master. What is required is these liches bound their own soul to themselves, so they became their own master.
Actually, most liches don’t have a master. Palawa Joko, for example. Khilbron as well, as Abaddon is not a necromantic master (he is Khilbron’s master in the same way that Gaheron is the Flame Legion’s master).
Only in the case of Zhaitan do liches have masters.
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I mostly agree with you here. However, I would just submit that there is also nothing to support that they are of Tyrian origin.
By that argument, then you cannot say anything is of Tyrian origins. Not mursaat, not Elder Dragon, not jotun, not even dwarves.
But the thing is, until we have reason to believe otherwise, why shouldn’t we believe they are of Tyrian origin if they existed in Tyria for as long as their history indicate?
We were outright told that the Cataclysm had zero affect on Zhaitan – was in an interview between Jeff Grubb and GuildMag, I’m on my phone so can’t search for it easily but his response was more or less “mere wrinkles in the crust hold no affect on an Elder Dragon.” Also, the undead of GW1 act nothing like a dragon minion. Though called the Elder Undeath Dragon, Zhaitan does not make traditional undead like those we saw in GW1.
The mursaat were of the five races that survived the previous Elder Dragon rise. They fled into the Mists to do so. There is nothing to support they are not of Tyrian origin. This actually supports the ‘they can be living elsewhere’ but we were told in Prophecies they were wiped out – told such by the oracle Glint. So it is likely that they’re very few in number, only surviving enough to either not be considered a civilization anymore, or went somewhere Glint couldn’t see. And she saw into the Realm of Torment (or so it is implied).
“wiki claims” is exactly the issue there. What is the source for that? Gaheron saying that us he close to obtaining godhood. That’s a subjective statement that of course he’d claim! The whole point is him obtaining godhood. But he never does.
There are few credible editors of the wiki, and the most active is Santax who takes subjective NPC wording ad fact and mixes his theories his theories with facts, no different than WoodenPotatoes does/did.
When we meet Khilbron in the Realm of Torment, that is his soul (so he is no longer a lich). His soul got there via the soul batteries and Door of Komalie presumably, given Jacob Salinger’s dialogue of “Those spirits you fought after destroying the soul batteries were once Chosen, just like you. But time and their imprisonment has changed many of them.” which sounds like the Reaper of Bone Pits talking about those who were falsely imprisoned in the Realm of Torment. And of course the Door of Komalie was connected to the Realm of Torment.
So Khilbron is dead, since we destroyed his soul.
Also, there is another possibility for the rising undead after the Cataclysm – that Khilbron was a loch beforehand and one-by-one turned the dead Orrians into such – it did take a year for him to assault Kryta, after all.
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I think what Wanderer meant in saying that is that no mortal can become as powerful as a god without replacing one of the Six Gods. I.e., Gaheron would never reach true godhood.
Technically, there’s little evidence of rangers in gw1 using magic. The closest thing was the nature rituals but that is never explained for what it is. Furthermore, when the ranger was revealed as a Gw2 profession the very basis of lore for them was “they distanced themselves from technology and turned to magic” – which would seem weird if they already were turned towards magic.
Anyways, to answer the OP, everyone can use magic but some professions don’t rely on it- either much or at all. The lore behind engineers is that they explicitly do not use magic. At least, directly. Their inventions may mimic or even utilize magic, but they themselves were explicitly stated to not use magic as a profession. Warriors are similar in that they focus on physical abilities first and foremost, though one can pass them as using magic to enhance their strength, but as a profession in general, they don’t.
Of course it is typically left vague to the extent or each individual for the purpose of role play, so you can easily claim your engineer does use magic.
That’s typically the case with standard fantasy liches. But as we see with The Hunter, Mazdak, and the Risen Lich, even Fendi Nin if you count him as possible, this is not the case for (most?) GW liches. Possibly even Khilbron’s case too.
Just recalled something. In one of the charr personal storylines – I believe the Honorable Soldier one, you can ask Rytlock where he got his sword. He pretty much responds with “none of your business”. Reminds me of Braham’s comment in Scarlet’s End. >.>
I think you’re grossly understating the Six Gods there. Firstly, though Gaheron may have claimed such he was nothing close to a god – the gods’ divinity is so bright it blinds onlookers, and their power is indestructible, as in it has to exist, aka it cannot not exist, meaning there must be Six Gods, in that without a host (the god itself) it will go chaotic and threaten to destroy a huge place (Abaddon was killed in the very heart of the Realm of Torment, but still his power threatened to destroy Tyria). Gaheron lacks both. Also, Abaddon was killed then his power taken – not the other way around. As it stands, it may be impossible to take the power of a living god (the only possible case of this known would be Grenth overthrowing Dhuum, but Grenth was already a demigod, so he’s an exception to the rule from the get go). And he was only able to be attacked because there were chains made by another god (Balthazar, specifically) used to make him vulnerable (and the five gods blessed the PCs in Nightfall just before fighting Abaddon, though whether this had any actual affect we don’t know – and Abaddon was weakened, having just gotten enough power back after being beaten by five gods to break his chains, though they were able to be put right back on by players).
So you’re what you’re effectively saying is “the six gods are just human-like beings who are basically capable of destroying the cosmos” and then saying “a charr who was capable of transforming into a larger form and was very powerful indeed was close to becoming akin to the Six Gods”. Yeah, sorry but no.
As to the Mists, the difference between that line and the bit about the gods creating Tyria is that the latter is written from an in-universe perspective while the former’s perspective is unknown (likely out of universe). Since that doesn’t convince you, how about the words of Jeff Grubb, Lore Continuity Designer:
Jeff Grubb: The Mists are the building blocks of reality, the proto-reality that exists between the worlds. It is where we find afterlifes and the homes of the various gods and other powerful entities. The Mists also resonate from the worlds around them, such that they form bits of their own reality – islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds.
Less specific, but same meaning. This is a piece of GW1 lore that has been unchanged. And if you go questioning all of GW1 lore just because History of Tyria is practically fully wrong, then you might as well just pretend GW1 doesn’t exist. But the thing is, it does, and until we have actual proof to say otherwise, what is said in GW1 is the case.
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RIP GW1 updates. I shall still vote for bringing you back from the grave.
Anyways, we know of four liches in Tyria, and a few “psuedo/possible liches”. Said four are Khilbron, Joko, Zoldark, and Mazdak. The few are The Hunter, Fendi Nin, and the various Risen Liches.
Of the four outright called liches, all but Zoldak have the shared trait of “cannot die by normal means” – Khilbron was killed via his soul being ripped from his body by the soul batteries and bloodstone; Joko suffered through countless killing attempts including being burned; and Mazdak was only killable (or so he claims and everyone believes) except by Caladbolg (which seems to be an anti-undead blade, makes sense).
The Hunter is a Shiro’ken (a construct powered by a soul stone made by Shiro Tagachi) that was given magic by Khilbron to be unkillable (we never actually kill the thing in Nightfall, the quest is all about masking yourself from it and defeating it in a surprise attack to keep it from going after you again, but it is said it just got up and left after its feigned death, something it does a lot).
Zoldark was an oddity of the four, as by all indications he didn’t remain “alive” after we defeated him – instead, it was his minions which returned countlessly, unable to be killed (until Zoldark was “killed”). Though whether he remained dead, or just feigned death until we left like the Hunter does is unknown, but no indication of feigning death.
Fendi Nin was interesting as he was mentioned to have been given magic akin to the Hunter’s case (by the Vizier of Orr at the time), which allowed him to control other souls and, more importantly, return to his own body whenever ‘killed’ (we defeated him by ‘killing’ his soul).
Risen Liches, despite their names, aren’t really clear to be actual liches. They hold no interesting trait to them, they’re just powerful Risen Wraiths. The only exception is a very particular Risen Lich in Sparkfly Fen – after the related event, the Vigil part of the event mention it will return. But we hold no indication of such for any other Risen Lich; it should be noted that this Risen Lich appears to have replaced a named NPC who was present in the demos (same place and model), indicating that originally the event wasn’t for a generic Risen Lich. There are other Risen Liches, but no indication that they are unable to be killed.
It should be noted that, like Mazdak, the Soveriegn Eye of Zhaitan responds to a burning feeling when struck with Caladbolg.
This said, I’ll note that unlike traditional fantasy, liches in GW hold little to no evidence of having Phylacteries. The closest we get is a lore-less item name.
While Scarlet has come to an end, there are, IMO, far too many loose ends to say her story has come to an end. I expect we’ll be delving into her past and figure out the identity of the entity (be it Mordy or not), given that Marjory, Kasmeer, Vorpp, and the PC knows of its existence. It would be foolhardy not to go after the source of a mass terrorist.
And in this investigation, we may learn of the remaining loose ends of Scarlet’s story, such as Caithe’s secret. The fact that there was that blurb on the Spinal Blade blueprint kind of reinforces the idea.
@Tamias: One individual’s statement is still better than no statement, as far as I see.
@lakdav: Adelbern, at times, believes his son is still alive even though he knew of Rurik’s death since the year it occurred (meaning 18 years of living knowing Rurik was dead), as we see in Ghosts of Ascalon. So I wouldn’t take surprise at seeing what was his son’s sword in the hands of another to be anything special.
Indeed. I once viewed pirate sylvari as ones who may have left nightmare court/wasn’t fully turned, but that might not hold true anymore.
They could be soundless, or connected to the dream, but they still are acting outside the “ONLY HAVE THREE CHOICES” thing.
It seems to be a common misconception of players to think that “Dream = Good; Nightmare = Evil” – it isn’t so black and white, actually.
While most Nightmare Courtiers that are spotlighted are of the “I will rend the flesh from your bones and drink the blood of innocents mwuahahaha!” such as twisted Tiachern, Sariel, and the three TA exp guys, there are those like Gavin and Ysvelta which hold up honor and pride, love and duty (respectively) above the acts of cruelty. To these, the Nightmare is a means to an end, rather than the end itself like it is for the… eccentric ones.
Similarly, being of the Dream doesn’t demand you follow Ventari’s Tablet nor does it demand that you act good in all you do. Aside from the pirates, we got Dream sylvari like Canach, Caithe, Gairwen, and, dare I mention it, Scarlet whom are more selfish, immensely vengeful to the point of 0 mercy, and outright assaulting both sides (again, respectively).
There’s more than three sides of “Ventari, Nightmare, or None.” If I must say anything, those four sylvari I mentioned in the latter are probably closer to “true sylvari” since they aren’t too dissimilar from how Malyck acts (trusts those who show trustworthiness, hate those who harm others, and to use his words “those who show no mercy deserve none.”)
She will never be disconnected from the Pale Tree, never be disconnected from the dream, never be disconnected from Ventari’s teachings (and his tablet). All of them are connected, you cannot choose to omit one and stay with the other.
Actually, you can. Take the sylvari pirates – they’ve obviously rejected the tablet and Ventari’s teachings, but they’re not of the Nightmare by all indications.
Ventari Tablet != Dream of Dreams. They are separate. One is a philosophy (the tablet), while the other is a metaphysical biological/magical connection the children of the Pale Tree hold.
I am searching for evidence that it is lying, but simply saying don’t trust a risen doesn’t help to tell truth and lie apart.
We gave you evidence. The Six Gods left the world completely a full millenium before Zhaitan rose. And there’s no means of Zhaitan accessing the Mists.
Furthermore are a lot possibilities given to demotivate people, so why did it choose the gods as topic, especially if we have 4 playable races who don’t worship the six?
Because it’s a priest, and though the other races don’t worship the gods, except for the sylvari they all believe they exist and they’re powerful – norn view them on par to their Spirits of the Wild. But the priestess may not know this anyways, but she came from Orr whom view the gods higher than any other.
I have my reasons to insist to tell both apart.
Then do share! Because all you’ve been saying is “they’re different! they’re different!” when in fact, they’re not.
The sparks at the statues of Dwayna don’t automatically attack the risen there if the temple is cleaned. Does it turn sparks into risen? The cleaned Lyssa statues has several elementals around it which also do not attack risen. Does it turn earth-, fire and iceelementals into risen? That they automatically don’t attack each other, doesn’t mean they are of the same kind, the ones are risen and the other are undead.
A lot of elementals and oozes do not attack risen – this is likely due to how they function on a whole. Elementals are formed from magic, so it wouldn’t be odd to see that they’ve been corrupted either. Oozes take in the capabilities of those they digest, so if they digest risen it would be odd for them to not end up being corrupted. Though that’s speculative, but the point remains that anything not of the dragon’s minion will be attacked because anything not of the hive mind is perceived an enemy. This is a fact stated by Jeff Grubb and in Edge of Destiny. The fact they don’t attack elementals and oozes is interesting, but the fact remains.
But the so-called “undead” are risen. There’s no difference.
It’s a physical place which was connected to the mists. Why should this connection go away, when it is listed as the first place where the gods came to Tyria.
Because the gods only arrived there because they sensed powerful magic. The portal was removed, it doesn’t exist any more. It’s just a place of powerful magic.
There are 1300 years in between and Orr was 200 years underwater. We cannot say for sure that the gods stayed there and if one of them liked to wander around in Orr, he could do it without meeting any living human around.
It is a FACT stated by the developers that the Six Gods left the world in Year 0. You’re arguing against the developers themselves.
Can you eat a turkey that’s being cooked halfway across the globe?
If I made my mouth a separate creature, yes
Not if that separate creature could never reach the turkey. Zhaitan lacks access to the Mists.
The big feature update changed a lot balance in the world. I think we can assume all maps are up to date at the moment.
Hatrdly. You’re taking what was stated to be an update without a story as a continuation of lore. You’re mixing pure mechanics for lore.
If I use level as an additional time indicator, then is Harathi after Gendarran after Kessex after Queensdale. And all belong to the same war, so it could be that we even haven’t entered Harathi Hinterlands with our forces, but we are on the way. There is a reason why all is repeating endless, so it could be this one too, but Ulgoth dies at the end and he doesn’t have obvious signs that he revives over and over again.
But you’re claiming that Harathi is happening presently still, that the war is ongoing in Harathi. That would mean Queensdale, Kessex, and Gendarran are too.
You’re arguing both sides of the coin, in the very same post. Pick one.
He can replay orrian culture with his magic. We see it through the personal story. And there are recordings. If he knows nothing about orrian culture, then he has basically the equal amount of informations or even less about risen. The recordings of the dragon are by far older than the recordings of the gods. Even if the dragon is active, while the gods aren’t, we still know nothing for sure about risen, because we have recordings about an elder undead orrian dragon.
Whomever said he knew nothing of Orrian culture? And what he does isn’t replay Orrian culture, but specific scenes – and he has to be at the location of it. He cannot replay all of history all over Orr just to learn about something so unknown. He has to know what he’s looking for.
He knows a lot about risen by studying them in the now, so of course he doesn’t know risen history – not that they even have a culture to study. But where did this come from anyways? Once more, you’re bringing up things irrelevant and changing the discussion.
There is no difference between these goals. The only failure about that is that the nightmare court is well seemingly blinded too, thinking that the nightmare is a desirable state.
Of course there’s a difference in the goals. Freeing from the Ventari Tablet doesn’t result in falling to Nightmare in of itself. Otherwise, all the pirates out there would have fallen to Nightmare.
It is irreversible, but have you ever asked yourself why? What if the nightmare is not the desirable state of the world, but the truth that we are living in?
I fail to see how you can come to such a conclusion. As I said, if it were the “truth that we are living in” then everyone would be like that, not just the Nightmare Court (which, I will mention, has been stated to be about 10-15% of the sylvari population).
Malyck is a trap. And like stated before, the nightmare court is still connected to the Pale Tree while Malyck isn’t. Showing that the nightmare court are no free sylvari, influenced at any time from the Pale Tree. Malyck is also far away from calling him a true sylvari. The only information that we get from him is that there is/was another Pale Tree and the physical appearance is comparable.
And that he’s not influenced by the Ventari Tablet, or the Dream, or the Nightmare. That’s what makes him closest to a “true sylvari.”
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Uh… “under the sea” (more accurately, the dark depths of the ocean) was associated with Abaddon, not Grenth.
And that’s a mighty big leap you make for “krait magic is similar to Grenth magic.” Seeing how nothing indicates this. Sacrifices deep underwater wouldn’t automatically make it akin to Grenth’s magic even if Grenth was tied to the ocean depths. And it’s an even bigger leap to say that necromancy (or “Grenth magic”) would be able to summon living, breathing krait – necromancy doesn’t teleport, and there’s no tie between krait and Grenth nor krait and Raven (at all).
Almorra’s definitely referring to Laranthir. In one of the personal story steps, Assault the Hill if I recall correctly, he mentions that he convinced Almorra to establish the Vigil, and IIRC, mentioned that he helped her out of depression or some other such. Wouldn’t be surprised if it was her turning reckless in grief and attempting to be more personal in revenge against the dragons. I could easily see Almorra’s founding of the Vigil to have been one of the planned novel ideas (may have even have been the one titled Crucible of Eternity for all we know!), especially with the mention of five leaders of the Vigil, one per playable race.
As to Rodrigo, I doubt he’s from non-Kryta, given that he’s a noble and a correspondence of the queen – Tyria is, to everyone and their mother, isolated from all other known continents. Someone who openly talks about being from elsewhere and talking with the queen would seem… odd, to say the least.
Incorrect, they are worshiped as true gods, but seeing as they played no role in the creation of Tyria – even though gw1 lore said otherwise – or any of its known races that makes them no different than exceptionally powerful demons, giants, dragons, or shiny rocks.
What defines “god” then?
Because, in the GW context, the best definition we have for god is “unaging being of immense power who, though can be supplanted, their power cannot be destroyed.” This is what the Six Gods are, at least. But what defines a god? The Six Gods are more than most polytheistic gods – a polytheist god is usually defined best as “an unaging being of immense power whom rules a higher realm (e.g., Olympus) or the afterlife” – the Six Gods are this and more (their power cannot be destroyed).
Nothing says that Melandru, Dwayna, or Abaddon’s predecessor don’t have predecessors.
But nothing hints that they do, either. So why presume something exists when we hold no evidence to the contrary?
Furthermore, the existence of winged female humanoid statues within the Rift (the center of all things with no sense of time progression), while the oldest and leader of the gods (Melandru and Dwayna respectively) share that depiction (winged female humanoids). This hints that if there was anything that could be called the “original Six Gods” – it’d be winged female humans, ergo Dwayna and Melandru most likely amongst them.
Where did you get that info?
Prophecies manual. The very first piece of lore on the Mists we ever learned.
Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
Then she has a problem, because the Dream will never let her go, except she decides to cut it off and become soundless. The Pale Tree will ever be with her if she wants or not, the nightmare court has the same problem. She has no choice, even if she thinks so.
Dream != Ventari teachings
Do you not read?
You combine the two, my point in bringing her up is that they are not the same. She doesn’t reject the Dream (unlike Nightmare Courtiers), but she does reject the Ventari Tablet – and she rejects the nightmare.
In the common world you have multiple choices to aquire something you want. There are several mechanics or methods that you can use, not only one. The turnout might be different and there is the point. If the eternal alchemy fixes something, because it’s the way, then it is a way towards a planned future. If it is just a giant mechanical concept then it has an intended use and the Asura are working towards it.
“Means of acquiring something” isn’t what the Eternal Alchemy is. It is how things work together, not how they will act nor their future.
If my allies don’t tell enough to get the story then I have to look what my enemy tells and check how much truth is in his words.
The risen will only tell you what they want you to believe is the truth.
They are different and that’s the mistake. This is the way racism and other unlikely behaviour works, put all under one hat, while they are different. They are risen or undead and I have my reasons to insist to tell both apart. Everytime an event with risen starts and the NPCs are shouting that the undead are coming, they are wrong, because they are risen. It’s a fine line, but it’s important.
My point, however, is that those NPCs that are labeled “Undead Abomination” etc. are all risen. There is no case of “there are undead mixed in with the risen” – its just risen being called undead.
To put home the point: non-champion dragon minions attack anything that isn’t connected to their hive mind mentality. Even with many Sons of Svanir, the icebrood will attack them.
So if you have something that doesn’t outright look risen, walking amongst risen and not being attacked… it is corrupted by Zhaitan, thus is a risen.
The artesian waters are known as the gate to the mists where the gods came to Tyria. While not knowing if all six came from there, at least Dwayna is listed ingame as coming from the mists. If Zhaitan has corrupted the artesian waters, he may have access to the mists or the corruption could go through the gate into the mists. I think this is a problem. Maybe he had already gone through this gate and entered the mists. That is all speculation, but the statement of the risen priestess gets more validation if he really corrupted the artesian waters. (And Trahearne should know about them, studying the nation of gods for 23 years.)
They are not a gate. They are a spring (an underwater cave system) which happens to gather a lot of magic, and is where the Six Gods first stepped foot on the world – a gate opened at the Artesian Waters, the Artesian Waters are not a gate.
Melandru and Balthazar are also stated to come from the Mists, not just Dwayna. With heavy implications of Abaddon (“Only you remember what happened in the Mists.” – description of Abaddon from Orrian History Scrolls)
Lyssa (one of both) liked to hide in Orr, close to the village Wren. What if either Lyss or Ilya were already in Orr (underwater) while Zhaitan woke. He would have had his meal right to his feets.
Nope. All gods left the world of Tyria physically during Year 0 (aka 0 AE), over 1,000 years before Zhaitan awoke. The comment about Lyssa hiding in Wren takes place around 45 BE, when her scriptures’ event took place (meeting and blessing Sara), and likely beforehand.
It is hard to compare dragon power with godly power, but the undead orrian elder dragon obviously produces risen instead of using undead. Taking me back to the question could he really have consumed Lyssa (maybe not both, but the preistess states that he ate our gods only naming Lyssa)?
Can you eat a turkey that’s being cooked halfway across the globe?
Nothing says that “several years” takes place in Harathi Hinterlands.
Two years have passed and the war isn’t over.
…. This is the discussion on this topic:
“Zones are stuck in time unless affected by the Living World”
“But Harathi Hinterlands has been in war for two years!”
…
Harathi Hinterlands is stuck in time because no Living World has progressed that storyline. We don’t really know the state of the human-centaur war, especially where the battles are now taking place – it seems unlikely that humans are being pushed back in Gendarran, Queensdale, and Kessex while at the same time humans are pushing back centaurs in Harathi Hinterlands.
From the same NPC that we put into lead position and that defines our major tasks during the whole story. This scholar either didn’t his homework about Orr or he just guides us through another war than the one we’ve got told. The NPCs which should know truth are very rare and Trahearne should at least know about the source of Orr after 23 years of studying, but he doesn’t. Don’t take him to serious, either he knows something that causes his doubts or he misguides us on purpose.
You say this as if someone who’s studied the Pyramids after 23 years should know why the Egyptians built them in that shape.
But that and this are different. Him not knowing about something that has no recorded history about it and him knowing the state of the risen after Zhaitan’s defeat are two separate matters.
I meant that they torment themselfes with potent poison (whilst immune to common poison) to get access to magic and I understood that you are telling me that they have no magic. Agree or disagree?
I never said they have no magic. I said that there is no magic involved with their natural immunity, which is what you were originally claiming with your self-inflicting-torment comment (which is false – they do not torment themselves with potent poisons).
Pale Tree, Orr, Trahearne …. if we talk about them, then we should take a look at the counter side to see what’s up with them. You said the nightmare court want to drive all into nightmare. I say the nightmare is everywhere. You said they want to corrupt more Pale Trees. I say the knows Pale Tree is not natural and needs to be freed from Ventari’s tablet and this is what the nightmare court wants to do. No need for corrupting, because they want to purify the known one (and I understood that you won’t see the problem there).
If you did any of the sylvari personal storylines, you’d know that there is a fine difference between their original/proclaimed goal (“free the sylvari from the Ventari Tablet”) and their actual goal (sending all sylvari into nightmare). In Shield of the Moon storyline, if you decide to defend Astorea instead of goign with Tiachern, he falls into nightmare and his personality completely changes, and such is irreversible. Malyck, whom is not affected by either Nightmare nor Dream, acts very differently than the Nightmare Court – so we know that the NC are not “true sylvari”. They outright state they would corrupt other pale trees. They outright state they intend to plunge the full race into nightmare. The Nightmare is not everywhere, otherwise you’d be having “bathe in the blood of the fallen! burn them alive and dance on their corpses!” (basically, the standard newbie roleplayers take on necromancers in most MMOs) will be commonplace, as that is what the Nightmare turns people into.
No, it wouldn’t be – there are still glaring errors like mentions of Kormir all over Orr, and statues that say the Dragonbrand existed over two years before it did. So how do we explain this inconsistency? What is the error in this case? That the pre-1078 asuran structures also resemble the ruins in the jungle, or that there is a mention of asuran architecture in a White Mantle base?
I’m going to go for the former. The asuran assets in GW:EN were most likely recycled from Utopia and so went through a very convoluted process between initial creation and actually getting into the game. Inconsistency or no, the book on asuran architecture in the Mantle base strikes me as a very intentional hint.
I’ve not seen a single reference to Kormir having been in Orrian knowledge… You’ll have to point that out to me. Unless you’re referring to the one originally-French story bit of Malchor from before release.
There are inconsistencies, but I don’t think that this is one such inconsistency… I just meant that it’s always possible – in the idea that one designer wanted the ruins to be of mursaat origin, while another did not. I wasn’t talking about obvious typos like the one in Ferro’s statue, but clashing design choices (or changed but overlooked).
Not an error, per se, nor an oversight. Just two designer paths. This happened with Prophecies’ development, where the two lead writers wanted to go different directions with the plot. Hence the back and forth outcome between the villains.
If we accept for a moment that it is a red herring, that is, a fake “clue” intended to distract us, then the question becomes why? Why drop hints all over the place that the ruins along the Tarnished Coast are mursaat ruins, if the truth is the far less interesting revelation that the ruins are just a forgotten asuran surface expedition. That wouldn’t strike me as very good storytelling.
Why? Because ArenaNet loves to see players speculate. Because Anet acknowledge fan theories in the game – maybe this is one such case! Because ArenaNet does enjoy teasing us now and again.
And I would hardly call it “all over the place” if it’s just two things. Sounds like you’re trying to make it sound like there’s more going for your theory than you let on/there is.
I don’t see why Logan wouldn’t know that Rurik crossed the Shiverpeaks, when it seems to be common Ascalon Settlement knowledge, and it’s even talked about in the Plaza of Kormir loosely, iirc (as well as King Jalis’ Refuge jp in Snowden by Priory members). The Ring of Fire part, sure, but Rurik dying in the Shiverpeaks sounds as common as Hitler and Eagle Nest – not every tom, kitten, and harry will know but it’s easily accessible knowledge.
There’s also the possibility that Logan isn’t making assumptions, which was my whole point. We cannot simply write him off as “he’s presuming.”
There’s a huge semantical debate around that, but I’ll have to leave it to interpretation. Because “not demonic” to me does not necessarily mean “not demon” – just “not like a standard demon”.
But here’s something for you to consider. Your prize example, Razah, was born from the Realm of Torment – specifically the Heart of Abaddon which is stated to be the deepest part of the Realm of Torment, where Abaddon was imprisoned while twisting the minds of all nearby (per the Abaddon’s Gate description and the gw.dat description of Heart of Abaddon).
Would this not count as “born from a corrupted shard of existence”?
We really hold no indication for how Razah would be if not for the players’ intervention – nor do we know what has become of Razah in the years since. Having “gained malignant sentience” may not have to be immediate, but then again you have the semantics of where such a description would end. Is total and complete apathy comparable to being malignant? Is being unfeeling, malignant?
Razah fits everything about a demon except his personality and, somewhat, his appearance.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
No ghost is akin to undead, as they’re all incorporeal (read: without a physical body) while undead are corporeal (read: with a physical body). Souls/Spirits/Ghosts don’t have to have had a flesh and blood body (e.g., Spirits of the Wild, forest spirits like Urgoz, sea spirits like Zhu Hanuku all seem unlikely to have had a flesh and blood body).
Typically in GW (but not always) the difference is “ghost = a wandering soul, often one unable to move on to the Mists; spirit = a soul who’s moved on to the Mists and remains there, or was called back.” And soul is just an umbrella term.
There is no hell in GW. Demons are defined as “made from the Mists themselves, bits of etheric matter that have gained malignant sentience and power.”. They are often born in what the Order of Whispers calls corrupted shards – such as that which formed the Dreadspawn Maw.
The thing about the corrupted shard of existence comes from this guy who states “Throughout the Mists there exist corrupted shards of existence where demons spawn.” But unless you’re going to claim the Spawning Pool a “corrupted shard of existence” which is even ruled as part of the main Underworld by a Reaper (one would think, given the malign nature of demons, Grenth and his Reapers would purge demons from the Underworld if they’re ‘corrupted’), then it’s clear that not all demons are born from these so-called “corrupted shards of existence”. And besides that, what exactly is the Order of Whispers’ checklist for what makes the shard of existence “corrupted” or not? Being evil? Being unnatural? Being twisted by another being? We don’t know – perhaps this is bias talking, hmm? Given how zealous the Whispers could be against demons in Nightfall, it wouldn’t be far fetched to believe they’d say all demons must come from corrupted parts of the Mists, and just to justify their actions.
As said, traditional vampires do not exist in the GWverse. Blood necromancers do not drink blood, but utilize blood as a catalyst for their magic (be it their blood, or the blood of the enemy) – which can be used to heal or hinder.
The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind. From NF manual on Razah.
Demonic != demon
It’s a matter of interpretation, I guess, but just not being demonic doesn’t mean you’re not a demon. Like the stories that focus on a “good demon from hell” or an “overzealously evil angel from heaven”.
And it’s already been stated, since Prophecies, that all creatures can trace themselves back to the Mists.
Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
When I did that step shortly after release, there were no krait. He had, iirc, standard minions – but had more than one of a kind. So it is more than likely a bug, replacing standard krait models with what I think were bone fiends.
My point exactly. What if something created and named the dragons? We know the Six are not true gods, they are only beings of power that seemed to have risen in the wake of an older pantheon. Could the case be the same for the dragons?
Not everything has to be made by something more powerful.
And the Six are true gods – gods in the polytheist context, not the monotheist context. And only half of the gods are indicated to have “risen in the wake of an older pantheon” – nothing says Melandru, Dwayna, or Abaddon’s predecessor had predecessors (or Lyssa, Balthazar, and Dhuum for that matter, but Lyssa’s outright stated to have “lost origins,” Balthazar has a half-brother, and Dhuum looks too human IMO – so I think that only Dwayna and Melandru are part of the original pantheon, which I hold because there are statues of female winged humanoids throughout the Rift, which is the center of all things).
And nothing really prevents the Elder Dragons to have been born directly from the Mists – which is outright stated to be the inevitable origin of all things (all geneologies can trace themselves back to someone or something born from the Mists, basically).
I doubt they really care about their “god-like status”. They’re more akin to a force of nature, rather than a sapient being with an ego. Maybe their servants care about that, but the dragons themselves likely don’t. We really don’t know how smart the dragons themselves are, actually, versus how smart their servants are. I actually assume the dragons aren’t actually terribly smart, or interested in doing much beyond finding a place they like that fits their aspect, and then just slowly expanding from there. Hence why Zhaitan just sits in Orr, and his servants plague the world. Same with Jormag and Kralk and Bubbles.
Risen basically treat ZHaitan as their god. Sons of Svanir and sentient Icebrood do the same for Jormag. They very much do have personalities – as we can see from their minions whom are in a hivemind like state with their dragons, as well as we can see from Edge of Destiny directly with Jormag and Kralkatorrik – we don’t have much on those personalities, but we know the Elder Dragons have active goals, thoughts, and intentions, which indicates the existence of personalities.
The comparisons to forces of nature everyone from Anet or in-game gives is more about how they appear to the average Tyrian, who do not see these things that indicate the ED have personalities. To the average Tyrian, the Elder Dragons are little more than forces of nature, because they’re so unknown to them.
Also, if the Elder Dragons minions are smart, then the Elder Dragons themselves are too. Elder Dragons know everything their minions know and ever knew even before becoming corrupted.
So, it’s just another bug to put undead and risen in the same instance? I don’t think so, because most of the undead are in a separate position.
It’s not a bug. Because they’re just labeled as undead – they are still risen, and most (read: 99.9999999999% of) risen are undead, so it’s not a mislabeling. They’re just not traditional undead.
How hard is this to comprehend?
They are undead. They are risen. There is no mislabeling and they are not different. They’re just labeled differently for whatever design reason was made. This is purely game design change and is not a differentiation in lore. Just like how you have Veteran, Elite, Champion, and Legendary. Just because they’re labeled legendary doesn’t mean that there are legends about them.
The spy might really not be the best example, since we are having the first contact here for the undead orrian elder dragon which produces risen.
orrian = population of Orr (even if dead)
undead = not living but moving creatures
risen = dragon corruption (which probably doesn’t even belong to this dragon or is affected through consuption of a certain magic)
As long as you don’t see a difference between risen and common undead and orrians, the whole discussion gets pointless.
I could say the same to you.
To the standard Tyrian, to almost every Tyrian, the terms mean:
Orrian = A dragon minion from Orr or someone of human Orrian kingdom heritage
Undead = A rotten mobile corpse
Risen = A dragon minion of Zhaitan
And the three terms are often used interchangably when referring to minions of Zhaitan. Because they’re rotten mobile corpses that are dragon minions of Zhaitan which come from Orr.
Aside from necromancer-made minions (things like the Flesh Golem or Bone Fiend), there are no “common undead” in the game. And you do not seem to get this. And to use your own words: As long as you don’t see [this], the whole discussion gets pointless.
They don’t have choices: Ventari (dream), shut up (soundless) or you are an enemy (nightmare). The sylvari never even try to turn a nightmare courtier back, they are lost and can be killed. The philosophy isn’t true if it’s interchangeable in it’s turnout, but everyone has to follow the layout of it.
If you are not one with what you were born to be, you are lost. Worse, you are dangerous. (Pale Tree to Scarlet in the short story)
Go to the Grove. Bottom level. Outside the westernmost House PoI – there will be a sylvari who says she cannot agree with either of the three, and will forge her own path. They are not forced into the three. There are choices. The Ventari Tablet is not the same thing as the Dream, and it isn’t “follow the tenets or you’re not of the Dream” either.
Hearing Vorpp say “to welcome in the truths of the Eternal Alchemy” shows me that this concept is pretty fixed too. If the eternal alchemy is a concept then there is still room for try and error. It is more a religious science while messing around with the nature and there is inconsistency too, thinking of Zojja and her behaviour.
Well of course it’s fixed. What changes isn’t the Eternal Alchemy (what things are) but how individuals interpret it (what people think things are).
What about this sentence told from the Pale Tree?
Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.
It knows about a problem that we obviously aren’t informed about.
There’s no context for this line. Who is “us”? What are “the forces”? She could mean how magic functions. She could mean the Mists (which we know from the kodan, trying to connect the mind to the Mists can lead to insanity). She could mean a lot of things – and very few of them actually refer to some sentience controlling the Dream, which is little more than a location full of memories and magic.
Working on a dragon army. Showing us Trahearne as leader of the pact even before it’s founded. The orders are competetive towards each other, so they don’t accept any other order as leader. We belong to an order and just had the choice which one, but not like Trahearne working together without joining. Until we suggest the pact and suggest Trahearne as leader. Because we have a time shortage and have to defend LA from the dragon we put the fastest and logical decision together, but it’s guided from the Pale Tree independent from your race origin. All fine and subtle settings that guide our way without giving us another choice for it. Pressure, the whole personal story, pressure for fast decisions and low amount of options.
And? Again, feels like you’re bringing up unrelated things just to change the discussion.
I don’t believe every NPC. I try to figure out if it is true, which is a basic task to get behind the scene.
I never said you believe every NPC. I said you shouldn’t believe the risen. Certainly not at face value.
Is there a definition for souls in guildwars? When can I define something as soulless?
Yes, but it isn’t exactly clear. Soul, spirits, ghosts – all the same thing. Nightmares appear to be overtly hostile souls, ghosts are souls that linger in the world.
In GW1, most undead are claimed to be soulless. Only the more powerful spellcasters were capable of controlling souls (aside from ritualists but they did things differently) – such as Khilbron, Shiro, Fendin Nin, Murakai, and possibly Palawa Joko. So traditionally, with exception of special cases like liches and probably sentient standard undead, undead appear to be soulless. This is not always the case with risen and even then, the standard risen is capable of more speech but less tactics than the standard undead.
Some events are done over a long time (like killing Ulgoth and overtaking the whole map is a war of several years).
Tequatl fled before the update and dies now at the end of the event. He got stronger, why should the risen reduce as long as we put them on the same side? That the probes are placed in Orr is basically the proof that Orr is after the personal story.
Nothing says that “several years” takes place in Harathi Hinterlands. They take time, sure, but nothing really indicates that the centaurs are pushing in Queensdale and Kessex Hills while also being pushed back in Harathi Hinterlands for example.
The risen should reduce because that’s what we were told is happening after killing Zhaitan.
Trahearne: Victory at last. With Zhaitan defeated, the corruption it wrought can be undone. The dragon’s undead minions that still infest Tyria will now gradually be exterminated. One day soon, that plague will be but a memory.
So the dragon is angry, because he got what he wanted? Nothing aside from our allies and our mission tells that there is an artifact. Furthermore Eye & Mouth & champion to claim an artifact in an empty temple, what an army, must be a very very important artifact. It’s about Alzudin and we kill him, because that’s the real task. Why would Trahearne involve a Largos assassin for it?
The dragon is angry because one of its champions was killed. This is no different than Zhaitan’s roar of pain and frustration at the end of Sea of Sorrows novel.
The Mouth of Zhaitan consumes artifacts, the Eye of Zhaitan sends its visions of Zhaitan. If there’s no threat to them (the Pact invasion is only beginning at this point), why wouldn’t he send those so he can instantly see and consume the magic of the temple?
Though honestly, their placement there was more to show them to the players to explain the next goals.
It is NOT about Alzudin. If you actually read the dialogue, you’ll know:
Trahearne: Zhaitan craves something inside that temple, so we must get there first. Sayeh will accompany you as a guide.
(Talking to Trahearne):
-> What’s the mission?
You and Sayeh are to investigate the Temple of Abbadon [sic] and discover why Zhaitan’s minions have displayed such a keen interest in it. I suspect they’re seeking something powerful.
<Character name>: It was victory, but we lost the artifact.
(talking to Trahearne upon returning):
-> We came up short, but we saw two remarkable creatures.
The point was to figure out why Zhaitan was interested in the temple. It turned out to be an artifact that (iirc) we could see the Mouth consuming as we approached them. When the Mouth and Eye left, Alzudin remained to kill us – but we killed him, and killing a champion results in dragon roars (happened with Captain Whiting’s death in SoS; happened here; happens with the Eye and Mouth we kill in the personal story).
It’s a poison extracted from a plant and used for magic. No magic?
Did you even read my post? That’s a unique case, and the original point you brought up was about them tormenting themselves with magic to become immune to poisons! Which is what I was saying is natural.
Why are you changing your arguments? Just to win a pointless debate?
With your appearance, the truth grows ever closer.
The nightmare is everywhere is statement which you can hear from nightmare courtiers, just like “it’s beautiful”. I don’t think that you tried to get an impression what the nightmare is. A lot of things around us are going the wrong way and we just don’t notice it, because we are all heroes and want to save the world, but we can’t do it this way (we know so little). Turning to the nightmare is just seeing the world as it works now (while even the nightmare court doesn’t know what’s really up).
And how does this relate to what we were just talking about? Again, you’re changing the argument for no apparent reason.
Being put in a place of pain and agony that is reserved for those dealing with a certain individual would easily count as “unfairly sent” or being a place that Shiro would wish it were his end. The Realm of Torment was a prison after all – one that tormented its prisoners.
As to other gods’ realms… we have heard of Eternal Paradise by Canthans – which to me sounds like something that Dwayna’s realm would be called, especially given the GW2 lore about Dwayna wanting to make Tyria a paradise.
Can add “the dwarves” to Jormag and Zhaitan. We know of their names by both minions and dwarven legends.
And alpha, not alfa. But yeah, that’s right otherwise.
Not really. There’s a LOT of bugs that don’t get fixed. Reason: never reported or very very low priority.
CHIPS, you’re judging the credibility of characters off of what is effectively tinfoil hat theories, and assuming said theories (practically debunked) are real.
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