Guild Wars 2

The second evon was there since the beginning – he was originally in the Shadow’s Lion Inn. He wears Evon’s original clothing.

It’s also possible that they’re actively fighting Joko, or have been kept separate from Joko’s forces due to the risen’s presence on Elona’s northern border. We don’t really know how far north Joko’s empire reaches in modern times. Could be not on the in-game map, could be as far north as Elona Reach or Seeker’s Passage.

Slowpokeking.8720:

It’s not hypothetical at all, the Risen did provide many deadly attacks. Let’s say if there is a massive fleet left.
Do they have the strength to cause trouble? Yes.
Do they have the tactic skills? Yes.
Have they caused troubles before? Yes.

So the only question is, will the Risen do it? So are we betting our chance on the Risen, the ruthless undead monsters “won’t” do it? Especially when their style is to prepare for a while and launch massive attack? Hell no. If there is a massive fleet left, it’s no doubt the top priority.

Actual answers:

Maybe.
No.
Yes.

But that “yes” is under a time when they did have the tactical skills to cause problems, and definitely did have the strength to cause problems.

But you need to realize that the blockade and the massive assaults, while both done by the risen fleet, were done by different portions of it.

The ships that created the blockade retained being in the blockade even when massive assaults were underway. This is proven by the fact that the blockade always existed.

The “prepare for a while and launch a massive attack” is the style of Elder Dragons. Without Zhaitan, the risen would never do this again – or so the theory is. Without waiting another few decades without touching the risen, there’s no real way to be certain, since massive attacks only happen every 20+ years. And with the risen no longer raising their numbers as fast as they lose them like they did when Zhaitan was alive, there’d never be another point where they have the strength for a massive attack unless completely left alone in full and the risen get organized.

However, with Zhaitan’s death, the risen can’t get organized any more.

kuritsutian.2987:

I had a cringe when I saw yesterday a Charr wearing a Balthazar Avatar armor! don’t they have their own deities? Maybe something like a Murzat Attire for cloth bearers.

Mursaat, you mean? Charr don’t worship mursaat – that was the White Mantle, a group of humans.

Charr worshiped the titans, but that was over 250 years ago. Now they don’t have a faith. They do believe that gods exist, but they see them as rivals rather than beings to revere.

Of course, this is just general societal standings. Individuals may decide to follow the Six Gods.

kuritsutian.2987:

What has the world come into? I see Norn Mesmers, Asura Warriors, Sylvary Engineers and even Charr Guardians!

Norns were always spellcasters, most asura in GW1 were actually warriors, sylvari have always been engineers due to their desire to learn things, and charr have guardians but its the lowest number of professions for the legions.

None of this is out of the ordinary for lore.

Don’t really see what you’re getting at there, other than potentially trolling, because the very foundation of the profession choices for lore was ‘exists for all races’.

Otherwise we’d have race-restricted professions like golemancers that would be an asura-only profession.

Zrii talks about those on her ships – my only character to get that far did the Priory’s invasion of Orr and asked about Barron and Fero, who were both pronounced dead, as well as others that my character dealt with in Orr.

She might talk about Carys or Batanga if you did other story options. Been meaning to take one of my other characters into Dragon’s Stand but I find reaper too good for HoT content to bother thus far.

Regarding the Tarir event – Mordrem invade the city and a circle of exalted (about 9) are protecting the center with the High Sage that talks throughout. One of those exalted sacrifice their life if you fail – the outcome for failing and succeeding is pretty much the same except for the number of chests you can loot at the end (and number of doors in the underground area opened). Exalted do not sacrifice if you succeed. If you got that message, you failed – probably just assumed you succeeded; note that just killing even three octovines is not a success.

As for Canach and Anise, all that’s mentioned is at the beginning prologue and the end if you talk to Canach after completing Hearts and Minds. Which is just “Anise sent Canach to fight with the Commander” at the beginning and “Canach’s going to request his freedom from Anise” at the end. Most of it is part of Season 2 and before then, which should be on the wiki.

Neither and both. The personal story has a lot of such cases, resulting in a case of “personal canon” – like most bioware games.

Such storywriting attempts got cut after the personal story though, more or less, so I’m doubtful that you’d ever see the survivor again – like I doubt you’d see the Quinn if he lived, or your warband as a charr.

Dawdler.8521:

The entire point of living world season 1 was to make a true living world. A world where timed moved on, instead of being in a perpetual frozen state. It achieved this gallantly. It made the PvE world come alive. You cannot redo it because… well, its in the past. Was it harsh that people missed it if they couldnt attend? Well yes. That’s how time works.

GW2 definetly lost something unique when they stopped doing this.

GW2 never achieved a “true living world” because of two reasons:

First, the personal story was always there. This was a storyline stuck in time, despite being before Season 1, it can be done after Season 1.

Secondly, Season 1 only focused on two storylines – Kiel and Scarlet. A true living world would be presenting small updates to every map few updates – in that let’s say every map would be different (either a little or a lot) than it was 5 game updates ago, but not necessarily the previous game update.

Every map was stuck in time. It only changed when Season 1 touched it, and even then it never removed things only added to it. Only exception was Southsun Cove, Kessex Hills and Lion’s Arch. Those are the only zones that were touched that had changed from their original state after the so-called “Living World” passed by out of all the maps that had been a focus for the Living World (such as Wayfarer Foothills, Diessa Plateau, every map the Scarlet’s Invasion was in, Bloodtide Coast, Sparkfly Fen).

Diessa and Wayfarers? They had new stuff during Flame and Frost, but outside a couple instances and some houses, they were the same both before and after Flame and Frost. And during Flame and Frost, none of the original content got taken out – either permanently or temporarily.

Sparkly Fen and Bloodtide Coast had stuff permanently changed – resulting in being stuck in time for both during and after the LW episode came and went. And nothing was taken out, either, unless you count the original Tequatl event ‘taken out’.

So I cannot agree with you that Season 1 “made the PvE world come alive” or that it had “something unique” while doing Season 1. What Season 1 did was result in fast paced temporary content that encouraged people to constantly play the game despite what their life may allow them, resulting in people being burned out from playing the game in an attempt to not miss anything. Even ArenaNet was burned out from the pace they did of producing content – and the quality of it really showed soon enough. That’s why Season 2 wasn’t a year and a half of updates every two weeks back to back. They tried it and realized they just couldn’t do it – nor could playersssssss.

Qugi.2653:

Living story season 1 was much open world content. Hard to make available to play like season 2. This was big complain from season 1 and probably why season 2 mostly instance. I think there is some NPC can visit to get some story of season 1 but I forget.

Actually, the main story of Season 1 was told largely in a span of 30-some instances. The only plot-related open world content was a few spots of idle dialogue for the biconics, The Lost Shores, Cutthroat Politics, Marionette, and Battle for LA.

So, in effect, only 5 storylines out of 10 had some open world content as the primary arc, and of that only two or three would be rather difficult to translate into solo instances (the election, Marionette’s five lanes, and Prime Hologram’s 3-split-3-split-3-split-again fight).

All the other stuff was more akin to the mordrem events in Dry Top – added with the content, relevant to the content, but ultimately not part of the main story. And just about all of it can be re-added without any story inconsistency – certainly no more story inconsistency than people still talking about Zhaitan being a threat in the open world, or talking about trade with LA while it was in rubble for a year.

The hardest work for Season 1, outside of those aforementioned 3-5 storylines (less than half the season) where you got to scale down the real zerg events or duplicate a community election without making it feel like you don’t have a choice (e.g., either disallowing voting for Evon or always resulting in Ellen’s win regardless of your vote – both result in a false choice), would be translating the content from one form of instance that relied upon achievements for marking progress, to a newer repeatable kind of instance tied to the story journal which Season 2 is structured around. The difficulty of this depends on how different the two formats are in programming and design.

Either way, last update we had was late october from Bobby Stein, where he basically said there was no change in progress regarding the reiteration of Season 1 content as Season 2’s format. Something Bobby Stein and Colin had both stated on numerous occasions to want to do. The question isn’t so much ‘if’ as it is ‘when’.

And the longer they wait, the worse things are for them, IMO, because let’s be honest – even if Season 1 included some of the game series’ worse writing, missing an important chunk of story (which introduces the entire purpose behind Season 2 and HoT, as well as prevents suddenly caring about this unknown Scarlet fella (for newer players and veterans who missed out on S1, she’s unknown)) is never a good idea.

If your curious, each storyline consisted of (temporary content only):

• The Lost Shores – no instances, several small scale events, and 2 large scale events
• Flame and Frost – 7 instances, 1 dungeon, several small scale events, no large scale events
• Secret of Southsun/Last Stand at Southsun – 2 instances (3 if you count the golem alt fight – I don’t), several small scale events, no large scale events
• DragonBash/Sky Pirates – 5 instances, 1 dungeon, several festival activities, a few small scale events, no large scale events
• Bazaar of the Four Winds/Cutthroat Politics – 3 instances, a few small scale events, no large scale events
• Queen’s Jubilee/Clockwork Chaos – 3 instances, several small scale festival events, 1 large scale event (the invasions I count as one because it was the same thing over multiple maps)
• Tequatl Rising – no instances, no small scale events, no large scale event
• Tower of Nightmares/The Nightmares Within/The Nightmare is Over – 4 instances (5 if you count Nightmare Chambers – I’m not for sake of argument), 1 special zone, several small scale events (wouldn’t translate), no large scale events
• The Origins of Madness/Edge of the Mists – 3 instances (4 counting Scarlet’s Lair visit), several small scale events, 1 large scale event
• Escape from LA/Battle for LA/Battle for LA: Aftermath – 2 instances, 2 special zones, several small scale events (wouldn’t translate), 1 large scale event (chain)

Total instances: 29 (+3 oddballs)
Total temporary large scale events: 5

Yet everyone constantly states Season 1 was “mostly zerg content”… the fact is that it wasn’t – it was content meant for few players that got zerged because it was a new and temporary thing.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Really?

What we saw is Zhaitan sent its navy to harass everyone all over the sea, launched attacks against ports, spread its influence over the coast. Most of the known Risen ships are very aggressive.

You really need to re-read Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows.

The risen fleet did not go out to assault unless led by a dragon champion for a massive assault – they did not harass ships unless the ships came to them.

They’re aggressive… when approached or led by a powerful dragon champion that’s establishing an assault. Like most risen in Orr, in fact.

Slowpokeking.8720:

They were attacking the ships with Morgus Lethe’s forces before EoD killed him. At the same time they were spreading influence in the Maguuma Jungle. The Risen are very active overall.

Morgus Lethe is explicitly stated to only assault ships that approach his lair. Morgus Lethe made its lair in modern trade routes because it knew the modern trade routes. But he and the crew he lead remained in place, waiting for victims to go to him.

The risen’s activity, except in rare, once-in-a-few-decades cases like being led by Blightghast or Whiting, is purely reactive. They only assault those they see and hear – those that go near them, knowingly or not.

Much like the Dragonspawn did. Much like branded mostly do.

Slowpokeking.8720:

The Pact sent some forces, nowhere said Lion’s Arch or other nations/factions sent the majority of their forces to fight Teq. Teq’s influence was just in the swamp mostly.

Uhh…

Yeah it did.

Rytlock sent Rox, Vigil sent the warmaster who’s still there. Not LA, no, but the Vigil took over the area, and said warmaster talked about Tequatl’s growth potentially being a response to the ongoing invasion of Orr.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Just the Pact, we don’t see the races and lionguards sent their main forces.

They do after the World Summit. Just go to Camp Resolve and watch the entrance. Or walk around. You see Seraph, Peacemakers, Blood Legion, Iron Legion, sylvari wardens and Valiants, as well as norn hunters all present.

Slowpokeking.8720:

The humans’ main enemy is Zhaitan, all they got left is just some politics.

The humans’ main enemy has been centaurs. Their dealings with dragon minions only happen once every few decades – when Port Stalwart and Port Noble got assaulted, when their fleet got assaulted, and Kellach. Humanity never really had that big of a role in fighting Zhaitan – Lion’s Arch did.

Slowpokeking.8720:

In the battle of Orr, we still see Pact forces help fighting Icebrood and the Branded with the dragons alive.

We actually don’t see them fighting branded – that’s just the Vigil, but canonically before the Pact’s establishment.

Point being, however, that those are all active fronts. The remnants of the risen fleet aren’t an active front.

Slowpokeking.8720:

But the Pact did, they are still in Ascalon and FG to help fight Jormag and Kralkatorrik. Why would they and everyone simply let the Risen fleet go free to attack people?

Remember the Risen Fleet are the most aggressive enemies, even if you ignore them, they will chase you up when you get to the sea. And it’s necessary for most of the races because in the story, we don’t always use the waypoints easily to get around.

Actually, the fleet is not aggressive unless you go into their territory (like any other dragon minion army) or they’re led by a powerful dragon champion and launching an assault (such as Captain Whiting or Blightghast the Plaguebringer).

Morgus Lethe was lured out by taking a ship into their territory. Same with all bone ships – for over two decades the sea trade existed after Zhaitan rose without even thinking the dead ships were real because the risen fleet is not aggressive unless provoked.

Guess I should have quoted the next paragraph too:

The invaders reached the gates of Arah without breaking stride. The Orrians failed to protect their charge. With defeat at the doorstep and the kingdom nearly in ruins, one man turned to a forbidden magic. The king’s own personal advisor in the matters of the arcane took it upon himself to destroy the invaders, no matter the cost. Unrolling one of the Lost Scrolls, kept inside a warded vault deep within the catacombs below Arah, he spoke the words of a litany that spelled the end of the Kingdom of Orr forever.

The charr weren’t ever really halted. Whether one argues that means they went through the now-called Straits of Devastation, Malchor’s Leap, and Cursed Shore in less than 12 hours or they just broke the moral of the Orrian army in less than 12 hours, the charr had continuously pressed on until hitting the gates of Arah.

Honestly, they always had character and personality to them.

The difference between Mordremoth and the other Elder Dragons is merely that we get to see it first hand rather than through their brainwashed, hive-minded minions.

If you feel that it reduces their character to talk because it makes them recognize the PC as a threat, consider this:

The PC is a threat to them. The Pact killed an Elder Dragon which had survived tens of thousands of years. The death of one Elder Dragon should be enough to make the other five realize the Commander – and the Pact – is a threat. Both Zhaitan and Mordremoth underestimated the Pact and the Commander especially, but even Mordremoth didn’t underestimate the Pact Fleet – that’s why Mordy took it out instantly, no doubt.

The next dragon may not follow that underestimation. The next dragon may accept that this generation is a dangerous generation to them.

It would not surprise me if the next dragon campaign doesn’t start with some assault on a city or fortifications, but an overwhelming assault on the Pact Commander directly.

well, during the invasion. According to the Prophecies manual, the charr reached the gates of Arah (but did not breach them) in less than twelve hours.

Hopes were high that the Charr would be defeated quickly. The Orrian army was the equal of any in Tyria, and the invaders had already fought a long battle against the Ascalons. But those hopes were dashed in less than twelve hours.

Argon.1563:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

She did prophecized her own death but as you said, it should be “will kill her” not “killed her”.

Is it possible that The Last Forgotten deliberately said in that tense, knowing that it only had to be “incorrect” until Glint’s prophecised death, but from then on, the tablets will be “correct” to anybody reading the story after then? (Unless the people reading are a group of overly touchy video game addicts on a forum, in which case it’ll always be wrong.)

Technically it would always be incorrect anyways since it was spoken centuries before her death, and the Forgotten words it as if she died long ago. After all, for all the Forgotten and the Exalted knew, Glint could have found a way to prevent her death in the century and a half the Exalted slept.

Also, ‘nice’ insult there.

draxynnic.3719:

Erukk.1408:

I’d agree it might be an oversight, but I don’t think it’s a horribly massive one, especially since we don’t know the average lifespan of a Forgotten.

A really, really long time. There’s a Forgotten in the Nightfall victory celebration who speaks of seeing ‘the light of the First Sun’. What precisely that means is unclear, but if it doesn’t mean that that individual Forgotten did not predate the arrival of the Forgotten on Tyria at least, I would be very surprised – and that would put him at nearly three millenia as a conservative estimate.

It’s possible, of course, that I’ve misinterpreted that line, but my gut feeling is that the Last Forgotten didn’t die of old age – the Forgotten created the Exalted in order to perform their function and then moved on. Possibly the next task for the Forgotten was one they did not expect to survive, or possibly it just suits the purposes of the Forgotten that the Exalted, and by extension the world, believes that they are extinct.

A better example would be Vissh Rakissh who saw the fall of Abaddon before the Exodus – putting him at over 1075 years old.

Especially since the Mists have that whole messes-up-time thing, and the Forgotten could have easily gone to the Rift where time doesn’t flow and come out centuries or millennia later after seeing the “First Sun” whatever that’s meant to mean.

As to what happened to the Forgotten – my bet would be on leaving the world. Not that the Forgotten went extinct (nothing in the tablets says that, just that this speaker is ‘the last of the Forgotten’ and the Forgotten are ‘gone’), but just left the world like the Six Gods did. After all, when this speech happened wouldn’t have been long after the silence of the Six.s

draxynnic.3719:

First, he’s still technically a convict serving his sentence. He says he’s going to ask Anise for his freedom, and given what he’s done, Anise may be inclined to think he deserves it – however, I don’t think she actually has control over that decision. From the discussion around the time of her purchase of Canach’s billet, he’s still technically a prisoner serving his time as far as Lion’s Arch is concerned, and Anise has responsibility for his behaviour: cutting Canach loose without Lion’s Arch agreeing to forgive the remainder of his sentence might not be tenable for Anise. Even if Canach receives an official pardon, Lion’s Arch may not be comfortable with the Pact being led by someone who was so recently a convict.

Prisoner billets as best I can tell from both the dialogue around Canach as well as Edge of Destiny is simply that all ‘ownership’ and responsibility for the criminal goes to the buyer. Basically if Anise says he’s free to go then he’s free to go, no need to talk to LA about it – but if he commits further crimes that LA cares about, they go to her just as much as they go to Canach.

On that last point, it strikes me that another player election may actually be the way to go. That way… you’ll still get gripes, I’m sure, but at least whoever it turns out to be will be someone who can be said to have a fair amount of player support. Just please make it purely about who’s to be the leader of the Pact rather than doing what was done last time and forcing people to choose between their preferred option story-wise and their preferred option future-content-wise.

I can go with that. And yeah, don’t go tying some ‘one of two content options, the one not chosen will never ever see the light of day’.

I still think they should add that fall of Abaddon fractal.

EdwinLi.1284:

@Konig Des Todes

Lily is not talking about all writing of history of Tyria being false Konig but that the History we know about the origins of Humans may have been distorted by Historians.

Do not forget the words of the Priory “History never lies but Historians however do.”

And my point is that there is no reason to believe that the many ‘historians’ on the topic which include ooc developer statements are false. Because the only source of human history that’s contradicted is one that’s contradicted everywhere else in the source’s claim (prophecies manual’s History of Tyria document), and all sources that contradict it agree with each other.

Just like there’s no question about how the Jotun fell because all sources but one say the same thing, all sources but one says the same thing about the origin of humans on the world. And that “but one” that differs just says “the gods made humans on Tyria” rather than “the gods brought humans to Tyria” – which isn’t that big of a difference, really, and is more a one of subjective truth – interpreting a scene differently.

I mean, if you suddenly see powerfully magical beings open a tear in reality and a species you never heard of before steps out, would it be strange to think ‘those powerfully magical beings created this species’ rather than ‘those powerfully magical beings brought this species from another dimension’? Not really.

That’s what Lily got stuck upon, ignoring the rest of my post which was more about the crux of his/her theory.

She did prophecized her own death but as you said, it should be “will kill her” not “killed her”.

Lily.1935:

You’re missing the entire point. You have to look at everything and take much of human beliefs into question because it isn’t certain. Every source I’ve read, including the ones you’ve linked, do not make a positive suggestion on where humans came from one way or another. I believe, yes, they came from another world. But the evidence for that isn’t good enough to say for certain. There is allot of contradictory lore in the game as it is and i’m just trying to piece it together.

There’s a lot of contradictory lore in the game – I cannot deny that. Half of it comes from Season 1 and later stuff.

But there is consistency in the statement that humanity came from another world – not Tyria (continent) nor Tyria (world).

Lily.1935:

And the dev post didn’t make a good suggestion one way or another. Like other people responded to it basically said “This didn’t answer any of our questions”.

He didn’t answer the question positioned, but there are answers.

And I don’t see howy ou can find doubt in the statement: They arrived in the Tyria (the continent) sometime after they first appeared on Tyria (the world).

This outright states that they arrived on the world at some point. To arrive means to come from somewhere. E.g., humanity’s origins are not of the world of Tyria. He states it as an explicit fact.

And you called him into question because he wasn’t hired during Prophecies’ development.

What he ’didn’t answer’ in that statement was where they lived before Cantha, Tyria, and Elona. Their ‘homeland’ continent.

Lily.1935:

Although it did lend some credibility to the part where I said human magic could be toxic to tyria. Which they did say humans didn’t have allot of their own magic, but they did have magic. And that’s a very important key point to that statement. They don’t need a whole lot to cause problems.

That was an entirely different dev and statement from Jeff Grubb – the person who said that humans had little to not magic before Tyria was Angel McCoy, a she not a he, who in my opinion (and the opinion of others) is not a good writer.

Lily.1935:

Some of the Lore you posted too suggests that much of it was Oral. Which makes it even less credible than before.

The oral tradition was referring to the origin of magic.

And to be perfectly honest, a bunch of BS to cover Angel’s screw ups that the post was responding to.

It’s starting to feel like you just read the first paragraph of my post and then stopped reading entirely, since you continue your ‘toxic magic’ thing without responding to anything I said in regards to it.

You just spouted a bunch of ’it’s not reliable!’ and continued to do so by talking about a singular piece of my post that doesn’t even expand past the fifth sentence.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Again if you want to prove he does, you have to give proof.

I already proved risen didn’t drop dead.

I also already proved that his remaining forces retain their last orders.

1+1=2

Logical deduction indicates that the fleet did not simply disappate nor drop dead.

If the fleet doesn’t exist anymore, it’s because they got killed by other forces. But nothing indicates anyone pushed forces to fighting the fleet – all the Pact is ever said to be doing post-PS is clearing out Orr itself.

Slowpokeking.8720:

But it’s not just blockade, the deadships are roaming over the sea to take down any ships. If there is a fleet, the best option is no doubt to take it down with Zhaitan gone to open the line.

Right. Not just a blockade.

But a blockade exists. And the ships that do the blockade cannot blockade while roaming out in the open seas.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Because Zhaitan was there. Even before Zhaitan’s fall we saw EoD took out the dead ship champion. Now Zhaitan is gone, why shouldn’t they destroy it to open the way to other places?

Why should they?

You never answered that. You just demand the burden of proof to be on us, while providing no proof yourself.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Where is the proof of the blockade forces then?

Already provided. If you can’t read, that’s not my problem.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Which is why they need to go and see what’s happening, with Zhaitan gone. It’s not like the Tyrian didn’t want to go, it’s because of the Risen navy. The thing is Cantha is mostly friendly other than 1 tyrant’s rule.

Joko and the Canthans don’t know Zhaitan is gone.

Hell, Canthans wouldn’t even know Zhaitan existed.

And if you listen to ambient dialogue amongst the cities, you would know that they don’t want to bother – they have enough problems on their doorsteps to potentially invite more in.

And if you played Winds of Change, then you’d know that Cantha lost its friendliness long before Usoku took rule.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Those few Sunspears who survived passed on the teachings of the Order over the course of more than a hundred years, holding onto the tenets of a barely-remembered vision. They became wandering mystics, philosophers, and lone warriors in a world that chose to forget their presence.

They are there.

Hermits, wandering mystics, lone warriors. Not an organization any longer.

The Sunspears are gone. All you have are lone individuals that follow their teachings. Not an organization. And even then – those people might be gone now, given the last contact from Elona was 50 years ago.

Slowpokeking.8720:

What? the Risen in Arah and Teq has 0 connection with the Risen navy.

Your comprehension is beyond stupid if you can honestly argue that the fact that the risen don’t just drop dead has no connection to the risen navy.

He’s not really a terrorist – his goal was never to terrorize. He was using the wildlife as a distraction against the Consortium and Lionguard so he could burn the contracts. He went overboard, for sure, and poorly thought out his plans. But that doesn’t make him a terrorist.

And he wasn’t a pyromaniac either – though he uses explosives, he doesn’t give off the persona of loving the explosions or fire. They are merely effective tools he can easily use.

The only thing that really draws him back from being Pact leader is the fact that he’s a sylvari and an ex-con. That’s hard to trust. But since he got the Pact Commander to magically go from continuous insults to full trust and pleasantries over the course of 24 hours (from S2 to HoT), with the PC’s support he could be made leader of the Pact.

However, I’d still place bets on either Laranthir or the PC to become leader. Presuming the Pact doesn’t simply fall apart.

Lily.1935:

We have to remember that many of those sources if any of them might not be credible.

If you were to take everything with a grain of salt just because it ‘might not be credible’ then you have no foundation for lore – you have nothing that is credible – and you can start spouting things like “Darth Vadar brought humanity to the world of Tyria” and have it just as likely as anything else.

Lily.1935:

Something written down by the Orrians isn’t exactly very reliable especially considering that it doesn’t correspond with lore in other locations but seems to be its own thing entirely. Much like the Jotun I mentioned earlier his story doesn’t correspond either.

There are many sources about how humanity came to be. But they all agree on one thing: the gods made or brought humanity into the world.

As to the how and where on the world they first appeared, that’s never talked about. Except in the Orrian History Scrolls. It is the singular source of lore on it.

Old lore folks tend to hold themselves to at least this rule: if it isn’t contradicted, take it as truth. Because if you don’t, you get what I said above – everything becomes as likely as anything else, because you have no trustworthy basis to stand your theory upon. New lore folks don’t really adhere to that and while I like the new blood (since most old lore folks left with the Living World Seasons’ retcon-o-fests), it’s an important rule of thumb to follow otherwise all discussion on lore is meaningless from every viewpoint.

Thrulnn is contradicted by many sources – from developers to historians to individuals talking about first-hand experiences. But even some things that Thrulnn says holds credibility – such as how humanity arrived on Tyria (continent) in 205 BE.

Via ships.

Lily.1935:

The quote I put in the post should be very telling of how you should view the information.

No, it really shouldn’t.

Lily.1935:

The post by the dev doesn’t say a whole lot and doesn’t disprove anything of my hypothesis at all. Doesn’t prove anything either.

Individually? No. But you add them all together and you get plenty.

Lore in Guild Wars is a puzzle. You get hundreds of pieces from a hundred sources and you have to put them together. Some don’t fit, and might be false pieces of that puzzle, but you’ll never find a singular source on an entire subject.

Lily.1935:

And the question of Tyria or Tyria really comes into play here. Are they from Tyria the world but not the continent? Or are they from another place in the mists?

My sources outright state humanity comes from another world.

Lily.1935:

History never lies. Historians however. That quote right there should be really telling on how arena net tells their story.

You’re taking the quote well out of proportion, I think. Yeah, ArenaNet likes to seed in subjective truths, as well as sometimes outright lies. But you’ll always also have an alternative subjective truth or objective truth to compare those subjective truths and lies to.

ArenaNet gives us the answer – when they give us anything at all. But that answer is in bits and pieces, and you need to add them all up.

You cannot deny a singular source because an alternative source says something different – what if they’re both wrong? What if they’re both right but from different perspectives? What if one’s wrong and one’s right – but which is right and which is wrong?

It’s far more than “historians lie”. Because historians also tell the truth.

Lily.1935:

Also the west thing? I’ll probably find it eventually.. it’ll be 3 months from now and I’ll stumble across it again.

If you have a faint idea of where you got it, you should be able to find it within an hour via the wiki or in-game.

Lily.1935:

But Jeff Grub wasn’t on the team at the beginning. He only joined around Factions(I believe this is right but I could be mistaken.) where this concept of lore was already established.

The vast majority of ArenaNet developers were not on the team in the beginning. Does that mean all of GW2’s story ad lore is worth jack? No.

Jeff Grubb was one of the two continuity designers. His very job was to make lore consistent – same with Ree Soesbee at the time. The job has been taken over by Angel McCoy and Scott McGough while Jeff and Ree disappeared (we don’t know if they work for Anet anymore or not) – the quality of Angel and Scott’s job is questionable, but Jeff and Ree did a kitten good job.

Jeff was also one of the main writers behind Abaddon and Palawa Joko – before Jeff, there was but a single sentence on Joko’s lore and Abaddon didn’t even exist. So are we to just toss out all that because Jeff wasn’t around in the beginning? No.

We have been told by devs that the ONLY time that we ever denounce a dev’s statements in interviews and forums posts is when it is countered by in-game (or book) lore. And even then, such statement only came to be because Angel and Scott’s reign as narrative designers has resulted in retcon after retcon. With Jeff and Ree there was no retcon that wasn’t well disguised as false histories.

Your entire post dumbs down to “well you may have sources but it doesn’t matter because people lie!” Which is a very, very poor stance.

Canach becoming leader is rather possible. ArenaNet has a habit of killing a character to help develop a progression of another character’s personality.

For Canach, the person who died for his introspection was Trahearne. Seems not unlikely that he’d replace Trahearne.

“epic feeling” doesn’t necessarily mean “good” or “better”

So I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree there.

Originally, humans came from another world entirely.

“The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Hi, everyone. Just wanted to pass on some comments from Angel herself:

Angel McCoy, Narrative Designer

Humans (including Canthan humans) were brought to Tyria (from…no spoilers!). They are not native to Tyria and did not come with much magic of their own.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Angel-McCoy-Interview/page/3#post2821776

But after being brought to Tyria (world), they were taken to another continent. Which is unknown. But we have two hints:

This map has trade routes to the Sunrise Crest.

Then there’s this old interview – to quote: The full story of the origin of the humans has yet to be revealed. They arrived in the Tyria (the continent) sometime after they first appeared on Tyria (the world). It seems, from their previous appearances, that they have come up from the south, so the “human homeland” may be further south than Elona and Cantha.

We also know that the Luxons came from a place across the ocean – to quote: Luxon children still hear stories of their people’s original home, a nameless place far across the open ocean and lost now to the land-bound faction, seemingly forever.

There’s a lot more but basically as we can best tell the history of humanity and the gods is:

1. Six Gods need to leave their old world – which includes humans and Forgotten perhaps more – for still unclear reasons. Hints and implications indicate some tragedy.
2. Forgotten scout the world on the Six Gods’ orders. This happens during the last dragon rise in 1769 BE.
3. Six Gods arrive afterwards at Arah, its earliest constructions done by the Forgotten. They bring humanity from the other world at that point.
4. Humanity is taken to Sunrise Crest (where the trade route leads – The Wetlands is north of both) to develop. Their time there is when the Cliffside Fractal takes place.
5. Humanity sails to Cantha, Sunken Isles, and Battle Isles over the next century. In 205 BE, they sail to Orr and Istan/Kourna.

Rest is as we know.

Lily.1935:

Before they set foot into Elona and moved their way up to the continent of Tyria.

They landed on Tyria and Elona in the same year, possibly even the same month for all we know.

Lily.1935:

But this wasn’t the origin place of the humans. They tell stories of sailing from the west to Cantha.

Might I know where you get “west to Cantha”? Because the best we get is actually Jeff Grubb’s dated statement for “south from Elona or Cantha”. Which given the world map, cannot mean due south due to the fact Cantha is, well, the southern most continent known really (that wouldn’t be covered in ice due to the south pole at least).

Lily.1935:

My personal thought is that they come from Gwen and Yeh. Which would create a problem since that location is a hot bed for Ley energy.

Where is there any indication of ley energy being denoted heavily anywhere outside of continental Tyria?

Lily.1935:

Reality seems to warp and shift when in the ley lines and in such a location where Ley energy is more of a large pool enveloping a majority of the twin continents the fabric of reality seems extremely unstable and extremely hostile to a species such as the humans. But this also leaves the possibility that a portal could have formed in this area since the fabric of their reality would be so thin and malleable. The perfect spot for the Humans and their Gods to slip through.

Ley line energy doesn’t have any indication of warping reality… If you’re talking about Thaumanova – that was due to clashing chaos magic with dragon energy. Irrelevant to ley energy, despite sitting on a ley line.

And we know where the gods arrived on the world. We know what called the gods to the world. The Artesian Waters. Trahearne: Human myth says that when the Six Gods came to Tyria, they built the city of Arah. The “source” must be the place where they first set foot on Tyria. PC: A place so powerful that it drew the attention of Gods from deep in the Mists? It must be amazing.

Besides, the gods don’t need reality bent to make portals. Even their avatars are known to bring people into the Mists at will, as seen aplenty in GW1.

Lily.1935:

The gods are believed to not be off Tyria and are a physical part of the mists.

Source on that latter? News to me.

Lily.1935:

So lets go ahead and just assume that the Gods did bring the humans to Tyria. Why? Why expend so much energy to bring them to an unknown world that could potentially kill them all or even harm the gods themselves in the process? My hypothesis is that it was desperation. Its possible that the Gods come from a dying world that was destroyed by something. Perhaps industrialization, maybe a run away ley line energy effect since they had no dragons to consume it or perhaps it was Arrogance from the gods themselves. Whatever the case may be they needed to leave. But where can they go? Searching through out the mists its very possible they came across a suitable plane. One without dragons and a stable mana source. The Gods could have seen this place as a haven. A new home to bring the humans to.

No need to assume. The gods did bring humans to the world – been confirmed for quite some time.

Though the question of “why” is still a question. But as I said above, there are hints that they had to. That whatever world they came from was falling apart.

“The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world. She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace.”

“Balthazar came in fire and wrath, carrying the head of his father and leading his fierce hounds, Temar and Tegon. He swept Orr with a cleansing flame. It was he who claimed Tyria for humanity; he who said the other races would be easy to defeat. It would not be the only time that the Master of War was wrong.”

“Next came the goddess of nature. Wise Melandru, oldest of them all, made of Orr a green and flowering expanse. She urged peace with the races already present on this world, but her advice was not heeded. When she saw destruction, she brought creation. Where she saw anger, she grew love. With this, Melandru prepared for a future she knew would be troubled.”

“The two who are one, Issa and Lyss, brought with her the hope and beauty of humanity. While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past.”

“Among them was Abaddon—once secret-keeper, now betrayer. How you have fallen from the glorious days of old. *What passed beyond in the Mists, only you remember.”*

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six

What you need to know about the Forgotten is this: they once acted as wardens to ancient races in Tyria and shepherded their development from primitive to civilized. They served the beings known as the Five Gods, and they fought wars for them. They had a strong connection to Glint, and they left guardians with her for many centuries. During the last dragon cycle, it was the Forgotten who freed Glint from Kralkatorrik’s corruption and control. In gratitude, she hid them from the Elder Dragons until they returned to sleep.If they remain in Tyria, they are elusive at best, and many believe they have gone back to the Mists from which they came—perhaps never to return.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Forgotten_Not_Forgotten

These tell us a few things.

• The Forgotten served the gods, the original lore of them being brought to the world by them from the Mists still holding true.
• Dwayna chose Tyria, no doubt despite knowing what the Forgotten knew – the Elder Dragon threat. When Balthazar came, he swept Orr (no doubt covered in Zhaitan’s or Kralkatorrik’s corruption) in cleansing flame, and Melandru turned it into a verdant paradise. Despite knowing the threat of the Elder Dragons, Dwayna sought to turn Tyria into a paradise, and Melandru urged peace – begetted by Balthazar’s lust for war.
• A question: Why was Balthazar carrying his father’s head? Was it in triumph or despair? Was his ‘fire and wrath’ because of his father, the world they left, or his own deeds (or lack of)?
• Lyssa made humanity forget. Forget what? And at the same time, what did Abaddon remember from the Mists?

These, to me, indicate this:

Their homeworld was in such a state that Tyria was the better option. Despite there being six world ending, magic consuming beings. The gods saw the Elder Dragons and what they can do, and they decided to stay – to turn the place into a paradise for all races, or in some views just humanity’s.

Lily.1935:

Adding to that, the humans and the norn seem to be the only two species that actively leave behind their spirits after death unintentionally. There are also the Animal spirits but I feel that those spirits aren’t quite the same thing since those spirits are avatars of their respective species. Human spirits and norn spirits are a bit different in this regard as they seem to have trouble passing to the next world without some aid. We’ve seen this in the Canthan story line with the Envoys. Humans seem to physically need something to bring them to the next world which no other race has mentions of needing an envoy other than the norn but I’ll get into that another time.

I don’t recall many – if any – norn spirits lingering.

But we see plenty of charr and jotun ghosts in GW2, and plenty of dwarven ghosts in GW1.

Lily.1935:

To sum up the norn since I don’t want to spend too much time derailing the topic at hand part of my hypothesis suggests that the norn are descended from humans and rather than going east from Gwen and Yeh they headed north. But I’ll elaborate that in the future when I decided to dedicate a post about the norn.

Definitely not. Norn have more than several indications they predate humanity. They have stories of multiple dragonrises – like the jotun – which implies they’re older than even the Forgotten on the world. Similar to the charr, whom have stories of the Giganticus Lupicus when they were alive.

The accuracy of such stories is questionable, mind. But their existence indicates that they existed on the world at least as far as the previous dragonrise – which humanity do not in definite given all our lore (Forgotten existed then, but the freeing of Glint predates the Six Gods, who brought humanity shortly after arriving on the world).

Lily.1935:

Going back to what I mentioned about Mana, it could be very possible that the mana from Tyria and whatever might be the humans home planet is could be very different and incompatible with each other. Think trying to give A blood to a B patient. Thus the world of tyria would want to react in trying to remove the foreign mana from its system. But with its weakened immune system, the humans can easily take over and spread like a virus. But once the flow of mana begins to return to the world the gods view this as a sign to leave since the planet itself would be toxic to them and is more than likely also toxic to humans.

Nothing in lore ever talks about ‘mana’…

Lily.1935:

This could suggest the sudden decline of the humans species after they’ve had such major dominance in the world up till this point.

Their decline was caused by wars and magical disasters – most of which were orchestrated by Abaddon.

It has nothing to do with something never even mentioned nor hinted in lore.

Lily.1935:

Leading into the bloodstone and the exalted we see that humans are specifically selected as both sacrifices and as Defenders against the dragons.

Seers created the Bloodstone before humanity existed. The Six Gods just resealed the magic within with a blood sacrifice. Doric was chosen because he’s the one who requested it.

We also see dwarves used to be defenders against the dragons, as well as the Forgotten, whose magic is used to make the Exalted.

“Why humans?” Chances are just because they were dominant at the time.

Lily.1935:

Well considering how evolution works its possible that a majority of humans have lost much of their old magic to adapt to the new mana moving into their bodies of the world of tyria.

Per lore, they didn’t have much – if any – magic from their homeworld.

That’s the cause behind them believing the gods made magic.

Lily.1935:

Effectively becoming more like a native to tyria. So the humans chosen still have quite a bit of that old mana left in them. Now this isn’t to say that that old mana ever left their system entirely, because I don’t think it did, its just saying that newer generations of humans have less of it than older generations. Which is why Glint needed humans with this old magic. The Exalted would be poison to the dragons and thus be the perfect defense against the elder dragons.

The Exalted aren’t poison – they’re immune to the dragon corruption. And that immunity comes from the Forgotten’s magic. The same source that freed Glint from Kralkatorrik’s enslavement.

Lily.1935:

Combine this with the concept of the bloodstone being mana that can’t be accessed by the dragons it only makes sense to seal it with a magic source that causes the dragons physical harm.

Nothing actually says that bloodstones’ magic is nonconsumable by the dragons.

And humans are corrupted aplenty. Hell, Zhaitan’s arc debunks this theory downright by the fact that he consumes centuries and millennia old magical artifacts across one of the oldest human nations.

Argon.1563:

From what I understand of it, only people who own land are permitted to become Ministers.

Nope.

Argon.1563:

If there had to be a specific hierarchy, it would probably be
Queen -> Legate Minister -> Ministry -> Nobles -> Ministry Guard -> Seraph -> Peasants.

Ministry Guard are just bodyguards hired by the Ministers. They aren’t a rank and, like the Seraph, can be filled with nobles or commoners.

Ministers aren’t really determined by any ranking either, as shown by Minister Rachel who states that yes, even poor people can become ministers. The main thing to become a minister is to be elected by the locals – which typically means the more charismatic or the more bribery/blackmailing-throwing ones get elected.

So really all it is would be: Queen -> Nobles (of various rankings including baron, count, and simply lord) -> Commoners

The charr were intending to cause a second Searing on Orr, but never had the chance because of Khilbron as Argon outlined above.

We can even find three (not just one – three) Searing Cauldrons around Khilbron’s tower and the Broken Spit in Straits of Devastation.

Slowpokeking.8720:

But there is no proof of Zhaitan still got a fleet to block the way.

And there’s no proof he doesn’t.

We know that the risen remained unchanged after Zhaitan’s death. So unless they got killed – which we have no indication of – then the fleet would remain unchanged.

Slowpokeking.8720:

They did quite a few times, just they didn’t succeed each time and met setbacks in Lion Arch.

All before Zhaitan’s death.

Slowpokeking.8720:

If they are mindlessly patrolling, how would they be able to block against Joko or Canthan’s ship plus the Tyrian ones?

Because no one is sending ships to the blockade, because they’re not stupid.

Canthans and Joko don’t know the situation in Tyria at all. Last they knew is that any ship they sent – if any – never returned. For Cantha, the distance is too great to bother waging war and they’re isolationist so they don’t care. For Joko, he has risen on his northern border – trying to go around them might have been an attempt to figure out things happening, but when they don’t return, or they return with “the threat is there too” he – not being a moron – would cease to send ships.

Tyrians wouldn’t send ships because for a hundred years no ship they sent returned – except as risen. The risen remain a threat, so unless they’re willing to risk a ship of dozens of lives, potentially rising the number of remaining risen, they wouldn’t send a ship.

Slowpokeking.8720:

It’s not blockade the trade routes, why would Zhaitan make such order? Its goal is to kill all the ships in the sea and destroy the livings, which. is not allowed by the livings.

And those Risens were just scattered, even the Inquest could kick their kitten in the city of Arah.

I’m sorry, but a blockade is not a scattered force.

You need to learn your lore and learn your definitions of words.

And learn politics for that matter.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Because they once were Tyria’s friends and one tyrant’s rule could very possibly change after 200 years.

If Cantha is no longer exist, then the contient’s resources will be Tyrian people’s.

No one alive is Tyria’s friends.

If, if, if. Exactly. IF.

If Joko somehow turned good over 50 years (not 200), then yeah he could be a good ally. But that’s a kitten big if, and if that if doesn’t turn true – you just told a tyrant with an undead army who threatened entire nations in the past “hey, we’re ripe for the reaping”. You just initiated a war with the worse national leader in the world’s history – while having internal strifes still, while having strenuous negotiations with former enemies, while having wars with external threats still, and while having more Elder Dragons to deal with. Not a smart idea.

If Cantha is gone, it’s hundreds of miles to reeap their resoruce – however, we know that Cantha isn’t gone thanks to the Zephyrites. But we don’t know how Canthans would react to Tyrians – both humans and non-humans. If things are fine, sure, things are fine. If they’re not – you either lost your ships and possible initiated a different war.

To many ifs with too many bad possibilities. And a good leader – a good tactician – wouldn’t take those ifs.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Who said we will give Joko resources? We gave it to his people, those who wanted to rebel against him, especially the Sunspears.

Actually till now you gave 0 proof that Zhaitan’s blockade still exists.

The Sunspears are non-existent. Again, learn your lore. Before you continue this discussion read this link, because your arguments are debunked by that.

And you gave 0 proof that Zhaitan’s blockade doesn’t exist. I gave plenty of reason to believe it still exists. And you’ve only shown that you don’t even know what a blockade is – because a blockade is not a scattering of ships across a wide sea and ocean.

I feel they topped Nightfall with Winds of Change – especially when you consider their technical limitations (no voice acting, minimal cinametic capabilities). The only downside was that the final fight in WoC felt like it came directly out of a cheesy anime ending (but that isn’t too surprising given John Stumme is a massive anime fan), but even with that I felt it topped even Nightfall.

And that story was fighting a normal human being with no super genius intellect or powerful magical artifacts – after fighting gods, humans with powerful magical artifacts, and more. The final plot of GW1 was against someone who would be squished within seconds by the previous main villains, yet it was to me the best plot of GW1.

Perhaps because Minister Reiko managed to be a true threat even to god-slaying heroes despite being a normal human being.

This is one of two statements by Exalted which indicate Glint died before they went into hibernation. The other is one of the Exalted Sages in Tarir, who states “A Forgotten spell granted Glint the free will to break from her Elder Dragon master, Kralkatorrik. Hundreds of years later, Kralkatorrik destroyed our beloved prophet for her betrayal.” – not innately wrong, but odd wording consider it would have been at at least 3,000 years later.

The wiki has a template used when lore discrepancies appear, and it is used on that page, ArenaNet’s been made aware of the template and its use – it’s up to them to check it periodically if they wish to fix such typos.

Erukk.1408:

The Exalted were recruited and construction of Tarir began 200 years ago, but I don’t think we were ever given an exact date in which the last Forgotten died. Only that it was sometime between then and now.

I’d agree it might be an oversight, but I don’t think it’s a horribly massive one, especially since we don’t know the average lifespan of a Forgotten.

The Exalted came out of hibernation due to Glint’s egg’s presence, thus after her death.

And they went into hibernation over a century ago (before Rata Novus’ fall – which was about 155 years ago).

The speech takes place before they hibernated (“Here you will wait in stasis for the signs, and much time may pass before you awaken to the call.”) so it took place over a century ago. Which was well before Glint’s death.

Xillllix.3485:

If I’m not mistaken when they released Teq they said they would increase the difficulty on all the dragon world bosses. But then they also said Stronghold would be similar to GW1 GvG.

They did say that they’d rework all world bosses. And Triple Trouble was the second one to it, though it was an addition rather than rework.

However, they scrapped that idea.

Like they scrapped the reworking dungeons after doing it to AC. Like they scrapped the biweekly updates. Like they scrapped SAB. Like they scrapped progressing the Halloween storyline. Like they scrapped Jewelry 500. Like they scrapped aquatic weapons, or aquatic combat in PvP/WvW. Like they scrapped new fractal levels after Fractured.

Like they scrapped a lot of things.

ArenaNet has a tendency to start a plan, then go with a new plan. Every four months they pretty much changed the game’s direction during Season 1. And all HoT was was just promises of more in the future.

And people believed them.

Waiting for the outcry when they never release raid wing 3…

Jahroots.6791:

I can dig this look. Would have used another dagger skin though. The flesh reaver-y looking one. Malefactarym or whatever it’s called.

Close. Malefacterym

I do wish they gave us the hammer version of the axe – who wouldn’t want a battleaxe, even if it’s classified as a hammer?

My point was more that “the Dream isn’t even Mordremoth using ‘mental magic’ but him just having a connection to something that two other highly magical beings – and all those tied to them – have a connection to, and it isn’t even unique unto those coming from Mordremoth nor do all those who come from Mordremoth have that connection”.

And honestly, he doesn’t mind control anyone. The sylvari who turned? They weren’t controlled, they were influenced. Do Buried Insights and find the mordrem guard you can talk to:

Depending on how you interpret the dialogue, it appears that the mordrem guard gained sanity for a bit.

During the final two story steps, a sylvari PC even falls to Mordremoth’s call – even if only for a bit. But they recover.

You don’t gain sanity or recover from dragon corruption, which means that the sylvari that became mordrem guard weren’t corrupted – and given all the other ways that “mordremoth’s call” is described as and how Scarlet/Aerin acted, it’s less of mind control or brainwashing (like corruption) and more like subliminal messages.

The physical change matches the very same thing we learned when Canach’s appearance changed so drastically – that sylvari who undergo immense psychological changes also undergo physical changes. We even see this with Caithe in Season 2, indirectly, as she gains Wynne’s hairstyle when she takes on her secret – a minor yet fundamental change in character appearance.

It would even make perfect sense for the Mordrem Guard, after Mordremoth’s death, to shake their head and go “what am I doing?” and no longer be serving Mordremoth’s now-gone will… presuming he is dead, that is. For all we know, Mordremoth planted more than just one seed.

In the end, the ONLY use of mind sphere we see him using is his ability to transfer his mind out of his body and into his corruption (effectively making all of his corruption his ‘body’ which is why he’s nigh immortal).

Slowpokeking.8720:

It meant nothing other than the process won’t be quick, it never said it would be hard.

Exactly.

My entire point – which you seemed to have forgotten – is that the risen don’t drop dead with Zhaitan’s death. Mada asked for proof. Kavalier gave it for me, and that’s what you responded to.

Slowpokeking.8720:

The “long way” means other dragons

I said exactly that.

Slowpokeking.8720:

What? Why are you still bringing it up? The Arah explorable was nothing a bunch of remaining risen just wait there and even the Inquest could dominate a lot of them and occupy the path. Teq, on the other hand, gained extra strength. All it could prove is that some Risen left, but nothing showed there was a massive navy of Risen exists after Zhaitan’s death.

Like I said, what the comment you commented on was responding to was this:

Mada.5319:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. Most important thing to keep in mind is that the risen didn’t just drop dead after Zhaitan’s defeat. They continued to wander Orr and elsewhere, remaining as active as ever before. So Zhaitan’s defeat wouldn’t mean Elona’s northern border suddenly freed up – it just meant that the risen there would no longer get reinforcements.

What actual evidence do you have for this?

This entire line of conversation has absolutely nothing to do with your theoretical fleet situation.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Where? Give me proof of the Pact is fighting the “fleet of Zhaitan”.

I never said they were.

In fact, I said they weren’t.

I said they were fighting risen in general, which the existence of Tequatl Rising says they were still at least at that point. To say they are or aren’t after is fully speculative – you cannot prove that they aren’t fighting risen still.

Slowpokeking.8720:

What do you mean no longer threatening? We are talking about the fleet of Risen, which blocked the way and attack ports, almost wiped out Lion’s Arch twice. They are a major reason that Zhaitan was the most aggressive dragon and must be killed first.

The risen didn’t attack ports except in massive assaults – of which there is only 4 such assaults in the history of a century. The risen numbers are dwindling so there’d be no more such assaults.

The trade ships of Tyria have had a full century to create courses that avoid the risen patrol. Those remaining risen ship will mindlessly continue patrolling – fulfilling their final orders, believing Zhaitan still lives just as those in Arah explorable do. That makes them not a threat.

Everything you said – almost wiped out LA twice (didn’t happen btw, but assaults on LA did happen) was before Zhaitan’s death. We are talking about after Zhaitan’s death, making them irrelevant.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Then who will guide and command them? What is their goal?

Who said they had a goal? They’d be fulfilling the last order from Zhaitan given to them – to patrol the strait of Malchor – and led by the dragon lieutenants, like always. Dragon minions are by default mindless, and dragon lieutenants and dragon champions command the armies, but even they act upon the orders of the Elder Dragon (and don’t ask for a source – every kitten event and book is a source on this, you’d be an idiot to not realize it if you paid attention to the story), and as we see in Arah explorable, despite Zhaitan’s death the risen act as if he’s alive.

But with no new orders, they’d continue fulfilling their last order given before Zhaitan’s death, whatever that might be.

For Tequatl, it is assaulting Sparkfly Fen. For the fleet, it’d be blockading ancient trade routes no longer used due to said blockade.

Slowpokeking.8720:

No, they got ships.

Where? In what event?

The only ships we see the Pact using are airships and submarines. And as pointed out, the submarines have no external guns – they had to be escorted with swimming troops.

The only naval ships the Pact ever used is in the Whispers’ storyline – those are not Pact ships, those are risen dead ships that were commandeered – and subsequently sunk in the very storyline. That’s not having ships – even before they were sunk.

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Ehecatl.9172:

After all, he didn’t really use mental magic on anyone that wasn’t one of his own creations. The PC also made a big deal about Modremoth attacking through the Dream, which as far as I know non-Sylvari don’t have access to outside special circumstances.

White Stag does.

And not all sylvari have access to the Dream. Namely, Malyck.

Ehecatl.9172:

Granted the death of Zhaitan had little to do with shadows or light. But then, we never really learned Zhaitan’s special weakness. We killed him by poisoning his food supply then vivisecting him with a laser.

Which to me makes the whole Rata Sum thing seem a bit silly. They need to explain Zhaitan’s relation to shadow as well as what its weakness was.

Because currently it feels tacked on as an afterthought, which feels tacky (pardon the pun).

1) The personal story has the charr sent on an extended mission away from the warband (not uncommon – even Rytlock has been under such orders during the novel Edge of Destiny; this happens a lot for cross-legion missions, be the individual(s) be troops or just advisers) to act as a liaison to the order of the players’ choice, but they’re still in a warband. There are known NPCs to be the same, and there are a couple cases where we see multiple charr with similar potentially-same-warband surnames working in the same order.

2) Like above, it variest with the individual. But the general rule of thumb is “a useful but dangerous tool”. If you’ve played Dragon Age, think of how the Qunari view mages, but add in treating them as folks with equal rights rather than beasts/slaves. Charr A may think all magic users are Flame spies, Charr B may mistrust the magic user until they prove themselves trustworthy, and Charr C may not have any issue with them. Most charr are Charr B, but all three and variations thereof are possible.

The thing that really is a big ‘no-no’ for charr is worship. You worship anything, and you are branded a Flame Legion by society on a large and put to trial under a ‘guilty until proven innocent’ standpoint with the penalty being execution. Even if what you worship isn’t at all related to the Flame Legions’ beliefs.

3) Definitely. They’re call medics even. Unlike most races, I’d imagine that the charr medics rely primarily if not solely on herbs and surgery, rather than healing magic, though. Sadly, they don’t go very much into these things in lore.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Kalavier.1097:

Or, you know, the final cutscene/epilogue instance for the personal story where Trahearne explicitly(IIRC) states clearing out the Risen will be a long, and hard job.

The difference is without Zhaitan, they won’t be constantly getting new Risen forces.

Trahearne: The dragon’s undead minions that still infest Tyria will now gradually be exterminated.
Trahearne: One day soon, that plague will be but a memory.

Where?

Trahearne: I know you’re probably tired of hearing this—especially from me—but thank you, Commander. We’ve come a long way and have a long way to go, but for now, this is a well-deserved respite.

He was talking about the other dragons. Unless you are saying he was a moron, otherwise there is no way the Pact would switch it main focus to other dragons when there was a massive Risen fleet around.

Note the bold. He is talking about the other dragons in the second line, but that’s not the same as the first line where he is talking about the risen.

The risen remained after Zhaitan. The proof is in the line you quoted, Arah explorable, and Tequatl Rising (happens during Season 1, which is post-Personal Story).

I never said there was a “massive risen fleet” and nor does anyone say that the Pact just abandoned fighting the risen – just as they had forces fighting the icebrood in Frostgorge and forced fighting the Flame Legion in Fireheart while their main focus was on Orr and Zhaitan, they’d keep fighting the risen while their main focus is on another Elder Dragon.

If an Elder Dragon is threatening to destroy all civilization, would you really put all your effort into wiping out a limited threat that’s no longer threatening the wide people of Tyria?

No. Because that would be moronic.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Now, as for good reasons why the Pact may not have cleared out the remaining fleet:
1.) Without Zhaitan around to drive them towards any particular spot, they’re likely to default to attacking living things on sight. Aside from the ones in the shipping lanes- shipping lanes charted out after Orr’s return to avoid the undead blockade as best they can- these ships pose no threat to the races that make up the Pact, and can afford to be neglected.

If they just lose their way, then there is no way they could stay in the sea for long, nor would they be able to block the way from both sides’ naval forces.

He never said they lose their way.

Slowpokeking.8720:

2.) The Pact has no particular power at sea. They have airships, but those can only be applied against surfaced dead ships, and they seem to only do that when docking or attacking. They have submarines, but those submarines are fragile and have no guns capable of aquatic operation- in fact, even in the main invasion of Orr, they had to be escorted by swimming troops to make it through intact. We very, very rarely see the Pact operations using actual ships, and those that are around, they seem to have borrowed from the Lionguard.

They have power at sea, do the quests over the map and you will see how did they fight in the sea. What do you mean by power anyway? With Zhaitan gone, the Risen didn’t even have a leader to command them anymore.

They fought with swimming troops, as Aaron said.

Slowpokeking.8720:

3.) There’s nothing of known value beyond the ships. The Ring of Fire islands were considered ludicrously perilous even before any of the Elder dragons were stirring. The coast south of Orr, from what we saw in GW1 anyway, is all uninhabited mountains down to Kourna, and it’s set in such a way that the tidal wave likely couldn’t have reshaped to topography the way it did in the Sea of Sorrows. The argument could be made that it’d clear the path to Cantha and Elona, but both of those, at last report, would be more likely enemies (which we have more than enough of) than allies, and the Pact seems aware there’s a sixth dragon out there that could further complicate matters.

It’s the way to start trade, which is very valuable for Tyria.

Trade with who?

Cantha, an isolated xenophobic nation?

Elona, ruled by an undead tyrant?

Lands unknown, of unknown worth and wealth?

There’s no one worth trading with. Why put in extra effort to trade with them, especially when the effort required to open up the trading lines can be placed – without much loss – to fighting imminent threats to the entire world?

Djinn are just sapient elementals, when you get down to it. Some of the more powerful djinn have the ability to grant wishes to a limited degree like Aaron said, but djinn are very commonly enslaved by humans – nothing on par to the Elder Dragons or gods would be so easily enslaved in large numbers like the djinn.

Zomorros would have as much ease fighting the Elder Dragons as any member of Destiny’s Edge going solo against them – if not far far less.

Don’t confuse wealth and craftsmanship with unlimited cosmic power – this isn’t Aladdin.

You’re actually discounting two Elder Dragons, which as Erukk said kind of debunks itself.

Furthermore, Kralkatorrik isn’t really east so much as southeast as best we can tell (he’s been relatively MIA from a player knowledge standpoint for 8 years now), while the DSD seems to be southwest “based on my calculations.:”https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Elona-and-Cantha/page/2#post5451536 And Primordus can be just about anywhere.

@Jaken: Kralkatorrik was last seen at the northern edge of the Crystal Desert, still a far distance from Elona. We don’t really know which direction he flew off in – it could have been southeast to Elona, or it could have been directly east or even northeast or maybe he decided to camp out on Augury Rock.

Jormag has been steadily pushing south, however, and did so personally when he rose (going as far south as Owl’s Abattoir in Snowden if the NPCs there are to be believed, before retreating back north after the fights with Aesgir and the Spirits of the Wild).

Pretty much my interpretation too – that those are the vines being spread across Tyria, the vines that dig underground to reach as far as the Iron Marches, and we only see them because Mordremoth tore the landscape asunder to bring down the Pact Fleet.

Honestly I’m a bit surprised they went after Mordremoth so soon, largely because it had the best chance of being the most personal dragon (due to the sylvari connection). Unfortunately, they fell very very short of making Mordremoth a good plot, IMHO.

As said, good storywriting doesn’t come from the next opponent being stronger – that’s just the Dragonball syndrome of telling action stories, and isn’t necessary. Besides, all Elder Dragons are world-enders in their own right, and it’s been established that the more time an Elder Dragon is given, the more magic they consume, and in turn the stronger they become.

We don’t even know what the other Elder Dragons’ second spheres are. In theory, they could all be nigh immortal beasts just like Mordremoth, all dependent on their spheres of influence.

Its theorized that Jormag’s spheres are ice and soul/spirit, while Kralkatorrik’s being crystal and air – but it’s largely speculative, and with Primordus we don’t even get a potential hint at the second sphere, just the first (fire), and with the DSD we don’t even get a potential hint at either sphere (despite some people saying one is water without a doubt, there is a huge doubt as the first sphere tends to be how the corruption takes form – and while the DSD corrupts water and lives in water, sans Jormag and Mordremoth no dragon lives in or corrupts its first sphere, and the DSD’s corruption is said to take the form of tentacles so best we can theorize is “its first sphere is tentacles” but that makes little sense – and is a bit too close to Mordremoth’s vines).

Simply put, there’s a lot of ways for Anet to make the other dragons more powerful and threatening than Mordremoth, even ignoring the whole “they get stronger as their numbers dwindle” that has been established.

Mordremoth talking isn’t tied to his spheres either – while sylvari hearing him from far away is, Mordremoth talked personally as well. This means the other dragons can too. Though I hope they do it a bit more cleverly than “and now they talk!” because that would be silly. Maybe a progressive ‘over the course of the campaign the dragon learns the Tyrian tongue as it sees it more and more as a threat’ or something – something that would explain why Zhaitan never talked.

Argon.1563:

Considering Mordremoth was targeted and Zhaitan before that because they were deemed the most dangerous, the plot will naturally wind down as we work our way to lesser dragons, unless there are a couple that are hiding their strength (Most likely candidate for this is Steve.)

Mordremoth and Zhaitan were deemed ‘most dangerous’ not due to their strength but due to their proximity and activity. Out of all dragons, Zhaitan (and then Mordremoth) were the closest, and they were flexing their muscles the most.

Jormag’s also been flexing his muscles, but he’s still only a threat to the norn – whereas Zhaitan was a threat to LA, humans, and sylvari (and even posed a threat to charr in the PS). Mordremoth posed a threat to human, sylvari, asura, and charr.

The order of assault goes with how threatening they are, not how powerful they are. Because even the weakest Elder Dragon can wipe out civilizations.

Or at least they won’t be as fast.

But yeah, Arah explorable, Tequatl’s boost in power, and the final PS cinematic all show that the risen remain a threat – just one that’s finally seen as beatable.

Though the Mouth of Mordremoth’s mouth looks nothing like the crocodile-like mouth we see in the cinematic.

And unlike Kralkatorrik, Diovid, Mordremoth is the Elder Dragon of Plants and Mind. So it does seem a bit weird that he would be overpowered in his sphere of power.

If they never gave him that sphere, keeping the Elder Dragons to one (especially since Zhaitan’s makes little sense as well), it would probably work much better.

There was a comment stating that the soft wood change was one of more changes done to make material price via refinement more in line to each other. The soft wood change was unintended to go live so soon but they figured it wasn’t worth reverting temporarily.

Silk might be getting a change planned already. I say hold off on arguing whether it should or shouldn’t until we know what these other ‘material balance’ changes are.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Wasn’t there something previously about ArenaNet not being able to add Cantha for some reason or another? I thought I read something about this a while back.

This was about the Canthan District in DR. Basically some Asian audience hated the idea of ArenaNet mixing in multiple Asian cultures to create a unique-but-Asian-feeling culture in Tyria.

Patriotism and all that. Stuff I don’t personally get.

ArenaNet didn’t have time to redesign the appearance of the district before release, so they turned it into a big gaping hole that was the Canthan/Art District (there is in-game and out of game lore calling it both).

It’s why we have the Great Collapse – or rather, Crown Pavilion.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Torolan.5816:

MithranArkanere.8957:

What I see more likely is the following, in this order:

• Janthir region.
• Crystal Desert.
• Northern Shiverpeaks
• The Depths of Tyria.
• The Sea of Sorrows.

Good list, although I would put Crystal desert on place 1. Why? Because of the egg and the legacy of Glint in that area.
And I have to insist on Ring of Fire, Anet!

So I see it like this:
Crystal Desert
Northern Shiverpeaks
Janthir area
Blood legion homelands
Sea of Sorrows
Depths
Unending Ocean area

I agree with your list, but I can see us going into elona after the crystal desert. One, because after taking out the dragon, there is nothing stopping Joko from marching on the rest of Tyria. So we will need to take him out, also after taking out the 3rd dragon, the home nations and the pact troop numbers would have dwindled alot, and we will need.“fresh” troops. Elona could provide. Also we would then for the most part be fighting a war on one front, to the north. (I can’t see us ever going to fight bubbles).

This would then mean that we would have uninterrupted supply lines from elona, and every where else in Tyria. I can then see the Eye of the North becoming the HQ in the fight against Jormag.

If we do fight bubbles I can see it being around the ring of fire, there is a lot of magic there after all.

I’m doubtful that we’ll be leaving continental Tyria any time soon. If they ever had the intention of expanding the map, Mordremoth was the perfect time to do so – however, instead of expanding the map they just squeezed him in, literally shifted Rata Sum’s placement (the entire map, not just the cube) over a bit to make enough room. Despite the fact that his placement right next to a giant city of magic and not attacking it makes little sense.

So I don’t expect us to go to Elona or Janthir or anywhere that isn’t on the world map. Not any time soon™ at least.

Nor do I expect to deal with any threats there. They can easily just say “Joko had no intent on attacking Tyria – yet.” After all, he waited until the heroes of GW1 were good and dead (or far too old to fight well) before assaulting Elona. I think he’d wait out the lifespan heroes who took down world-ending dragons. He’s got time on his side, and despite being comedy relief like Lord Faren, unlike Faren he’s actually smart.

Also, the Eye of the North won’t be relevant to the Jormag arc. Why I know? It’s used as an instance for linked accounts. It’s already being used in its entirety. They might decide to use the zone around it, maybe even make it visible beyond an impassable section like Rata Sum in Dragon’s Stand, but it won’t be accessible from those maps.

Torolan.5816:

MithranArkanere.8957:

I think that after a dragon an interlude against another enemy: The White Mantle would make more sense, instead going straight against another dragon.

The White Mantle would take advantage of the pact, the 5 big cities and the orders being weakened to try and take over Kryta again.

That would indeed be very intriguing, but I doublt it will happen. Anet does seem to not like to be reminded of GW1 too much most of the time :/

I think the raid will end up closing up the White Mantle arc – at least, as much of it as Anet’s going to do.

And HoT is all about GW1 lore references – even S2 was in large that.

But HoT was also all about catering to the vocal outcries of how to direct the story. Who knows how the future arcs will go with that…

RoseofGilead.8907:

There was one datamined a looooooooooooong time ago. Sadly, it’s never been put into the game.

You mean thank god it’s never been put into the game.

I’m sorry, but I do not need to see female charr in schoolgirl outfits. That datamined preview was horrid enough, even for me.

A lot of insects and plants are incapable of reproduction however most folks would very much consider a colony of bees and ants to be alive despite how only a handful of them are capable of reproduction.

So yes, sylvari are alive. So, I would argue, are risen, icebrood, mordrem, branded, destroyers, and whatever the DSD creates. Despite not being of flesh and blood, I would consider them to be alive.

Though they’d only count for half of the list Amraston gave: Organization, Metabolism (though not standard such), adaptation, and response to stimuli.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I wouldn’t count the, what, five or so ships to be “a lot” for a navy that terrorized the Sea of Sorrows and patrolled the Strait of Malchor that kept the continent blockaded despite the Rata Sum’s docks being what would seemingly be outside the blockade (as it is beyond the Ring of Fire-to-Orr portion).

If the navy can permanently blockade Rata Sum’s docks, then it has to be bigger than the 10 or so ships we see throughout the storyline, or the 5 or so we destroy.

And they are NOT in the middle of an ocean. Just look at the map and you’ll see the that the Strait of Malchor is exactly what it’s called – a strait.

Nothing says that the risen were out in the ocean – nothing ever said that. They were before the ocean, preventing access to it. Even an organized navy cannot blockade within an ocean – too much open space.

But a strait and a coastline? That can be done even by sparse amounts of ships.

If there were only five ships and without Zhaitan, without the reinforcements, I don’t see how would it be able to block anything against the Canthan Empire or Joko’s navy and the Pact fleet on the otherside.

Way to take my post in an obviously false direction.

I said we destroyed 5 or so ships (granted, it’s probably closer to 10 if I assume there are events I have not seen with bone ships), and that we saw 10 or so ships in total (and probably closer to 15 for same reason above).

The point I was trying to make is that we never see the whole of Zhaitan’s navy, nor the majority of it. And we definitely did not cripple Zhaitan’s navy.

Slowpokeking.8720:

The Greyhawk.9107:

Thats….not at all what he meant. Konig said that we only destroy five or so ships (which I may not necessarily agree with) not that the fleet only had five ships.

What? 5 ships? Even in Seas of Sorrows and Edge of Destiny novel there were more than these dead ships got destroyed. In the story we destroyed at least 7-8 specific dead ships(the one carrying corpses, the three to sneak in, the one carrying magic items, the one tried to ambush us and the Warmonger) surely plus a lot more in the war since none of these were fought in a open naval battle.

Are you saying Zhaitan was that stupid, didn’t call the majority of its navy back when Orr was under attack?

Uh. The Warmonger was the one that was carrying magic items. And I was largely referring to the Order of Whisper’s plan after Further into Orr in the personal story, which sinks only 3-4. That was the Pact’s “big crippling plan” for the risen navy. I certainly wasn’t referring to events 70 years prior to the PS (Sea of Sorrows).

And I’m saying that Zhaitan didn’t consider the Pact a threat. Given that he kept one of his strongest champions, the Giganticus Lupicus, in Arah the entire time I’d say that’s pretty accurate.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Zhaitan was already aware when we won at Fort Trinity. We also needed to use the Dead Ships to dock to Arah so it showed how heavy its defense was.

Aware != not overconfident

And we never docked to Arah. Cursed Shore was taken with a three-sided assault (each Orders’ plan) – from air, land, and sea. The Whispers’ plan only took out 3-5 ships, however, and was largely focused on bombarding the shoreline, not taking out other ships. Even that was largely irrelevant to naval battle, and pulling in ships from across the straits and seas would result in said ships being too late to assist – better for Zhaitan to keep a firm grip on his territory and use the thousands of minions on the mainland already to fight the Pact.

I wouldn’t count the, what, five or so ships to be “a lot” for a navy that terrorized the Sea of Sorrows and patrolled the Strait of Malchor that kept the continent blockaded despite the Rata Sum’s docks being what would seemingly be outside the blockade (as it is beyond the Ring of Fire-to-Orr portion).

If the navy can permanently blockade Rata Sum’s docks, then it has to be bigger than the 10 or so ships we see throughout the storyline, or the 5 or so we destroy.

And they are NOT in the middle of an ocean. Just look at the map and you’ll see the that the Strait of Malchor is exactly what it’s called – a strait.

Nothing says that the risen were out in the ocean – nothing ever said that. They were before the ocean, preventing access to it. Even an organized navy cannot blockade within an ocean – too much open space.

But a strait and a coastline? That can be done even by sparse amounts of ships.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Not this again!

Those Risen in Arah were obviously scattered, even the Inquest was able to dominate a lot of them. Those Risen obviously weren’t trying to aid anything out side of Arah. Also remember these Risen were inside of Arah, which means they stayed at the center of the dragon’s influence and it happened soon after Zhaitan’s death.

We are talking about the navy, which require a lot of coordination, reinforcement and command or they would become nothing but lost fishes in the giant ocean. With the dragon gone and Orr cleansed, those ships no longer have place to get reinforcement, no longer have the dragon to give them goal, no longer have the towers to give them coordination. How are they going to make a threat, especially blocking the ocean and against other navy?

1. They weren’t scattered.
2. The Inquest were able to dominate dragon minions from five different dragons before the death of any (see: CoE story).
3. I never said the risen in Arah were trying to aid elsewhere. In fact, I said that is the lack of reinforcements is the one thing you got right.
4. I was talking about the navy, which doesn’t require a lot of coordination – no more than what the dragon minions provide – and they aren’t in the ocean but in the Strait of Malchor – which isn’t a far distance from Orr. I was using the situation of the Arah risen as a basis for how all other risen are to act anywhere. It’s a simple sail back-and-forth in a straight line.
5. The risen very obviously do not need Zhaitan to “give them a goal” given that all risen act like Zhaitan’s alive.

You seem to be under the impression that an Elder Dragon is required for dragon minions to have any amount of consistency or coordination. But this is downright false, as Zhaitan didn’t do much when alive. That task was given to the dragon champions, which are unchanged after Zhaitan’s death.

If you played Arah explorable, you’d know that only one statement you said is truth: no more reinforcement. (Edit: And even that isn’t fully true)

The risen didn’t just drop dead when their dragon died – same goes for mordrem (why Caithe was worried about sylvari dying off when they killed Mordremoth is beyond me – unless she believes that Zhaitan isn’t dead). And the dragon champions retain enough intelligence (the same amount as before Zhaitan’s death) that allows them to organize the lesser risen and remain a threat.

Zhaitan’s death doesn’t mean the risen threat is gone – just that their days are numbered, that their spread has been stemmed down to a near halt (but as we see with Tequatl in Season 1, not fully halted).