Guild Wars 2

I’m going to stray from certain religious views to state that, in large, and per dictionaries, souls and spirits are no different. People tend to use soul in reference to pre-death, spirit for post-death, and ghosts for post-death when the spirit remains in mortal realms. On occasion, soul is used to refer to one’s kindness (akin to someone having heart, etc.). But that’s just a case of a word having multiple meanings and doesn’t change how they’re the same thing (and from what little I read there, that site is using that ‘on occasion’ situation). But spirit is also, on occasion, used in such meanings.

Resulting in, once again, being the same thing. Just a change of context.

Sylvari do not have hearts, or so was said when a dev got asked at a convention – long after my post that you quoted by about a year and a half.

That was the thought until folks brought up dialogue which shows that charr are omnivores, albeit with preference for meat instead of fruits and vegetables.

To OP:

Your argument for #1 is downright silly. It’s group content. It’s designed as group content. It’s not meant to be solo content.

If you want Anet to produce more challenging solo content, then ask for more challenge motes in the story instances.

I half-agree half-disagree with #2. I can agree that forming squads is rather tedious, but Anet never said raids were a “go in and have fun” gameplay. If anything, they said it wasn’t such. They always said it would be the most challenging content in the game, and would need some serious considerations to build composition and the like.

Regarding #3: Exclusive content was always around. Unfortunately, ArenaNet reduced such for the original set of legendary weapons but originally you had to do WvW and dungeons to get them. There was no other ways. Slowly Anet changed that, and I kind of wish that they’d revoke such changes or change the recipes a bit. But you get what you get.

Legendary gear is meant to be hard to get and require playing a specific piece of content.

They kind of screwed the pooch with the original legendary weapons, especially the collections, in how they’ve so distanced from dungeons, but I’d say they did good with the legendary backpieces and the armor – I’ve not looked much into the second legendary weapon set so I won’t comment there.

Asura only use ‘bookah’ to refer to stupid humans – and that’s the rude asura, not all of them.

Even though what a bookah is matches jotun or norn better.

When you’ve wiped out countless civilizations over several tens of thousands of years, I think arrogance is kind of expected.

This is the first time the Elder Dragons had such strong resistance.

And I think Mordremoth saw the Pact for the threat it was, though still underestimated them. Publicly, it seems that it is “the Pact Fleet” credited with killing Zhaitan when the land army did most of the work to weaken Zhaitan to a point (this crediting is why the nobles followed behind in their own airship, and why Rox – iirc – says that the fleet and DE brought down Zhaitan so how could they fight Mordremoth). Mordremoth knew this public view and wiped out the Fleet, thinking the foot soldiers wouldn’t make it into Dragon’s Stand or to him since his army and the chak were in their way.

Whether they continue this trend with each dragon becoming not only more powerful (more magic to consume than the last) but less arrogant (more dragons brought down by their enemies) thus more interesting plots will be a question to be had.

Ghosts are just souls/spirits that reside in Tyria, largely.

The three terms have always been effectively interchangeable, ghosts literally being souls/spirits that have remained in the mortal world.

There’s no discontinuity on this subject that I’ve seen so far. Belinda certainly never added any such stuff.

Demons spawn from the protomatter of the Mists itself – like the Fractals and PvP arena landscapes and, largely, NPCs.

“Bad souls” can become Nightmares, which are things like Shades, Aatxes, and the Shadow Behemoth.

I don’t get what you find so confusing… if you were to elaborate on what you find confusing, perhaps someone can illuminate.

Actually, it’s never said Ronan fought those plant monsters. Just that the seeds were being guarded.

@Tom Gore: Risen do not have free will, and many champions constantly talk about Zhaitans eternal rule.

Zhaitan saw himself as a ruler. A king of sorts. He wanted world domination, and wanted a nation beneath him given the structure. We even see risen acting as if Zhaitan had promised them eternal life and power, despite their lack of free will. Showing that he gave a level of autonomy to his minions and, further, that he intended to keep them under him forever. An eternal kingdom, undying for they are undeath.

Each dragon, though it isn’t all that clear, has shown a personality and goal unique to themselves – something much larger than the commoner’s opinion of their goal (‘destroy the world’).

• Kralkatorrik shows himself wanting everything in Edge of Destiny. He is greed. He will no doubt hoard everything, like a traditional dragon, and corrupt it all in the process.
• Mordremoth says “I am this world” – repeatedly in many forms. He saw himself as Tyria itself. That’s not seeking world destruction, as that would be destroying himself, effectively. He seeks not only servitude of all things, whether they accept it or not, but to become the very world.
• Jormag, as I’ve said, has established himself as a religious figure. A god of sorts. And furthermore, he preaches about strength – not just the Sons of Svanir, but the icebrood do as well (see Frozen Portal in Drakkar Spurs). He seems to be after a world where ‘survival of the fittest’ is law, and he is god.

And I already mentioned Zhaitan.

These things may not be very relate-able, but if what I perceive is true, that makes them interesting villains all the same.

@Invictus:

I do not see Palpatine’s goal being ‘order, stability, and peace.’ Hell, he even shouts “unlimited power!” as he kills Mace Windu.

Also, the norn don’t really need all that much gold. Being norn, they hunt and make most of their own stuff, and they can also raid things. They probably take care of their own needs well enough that Jormag doesn’t think twice.

@Mushroomz: I think both Mordremoth and Jormag have been doing that from the start.

Mordrem Guard don’t seem actually corrupted given the sane one we can talk to during the Rata Novus story instance, but rather convinced by Mordremoth’s telepathy to serve him. This means he tricks them, plays them into his hands, which requires an understanding of each and every individual. Including Scarlet Briar.

This is similar to what Jormag did, via Drakkar, to Svanir in GW1 and did, via Dragonspawn, to Zojja in Eye of the North – and is implied to do to all his dragon minions. Use telepathy to convince conversion. And from them, they spread the teachings of conversion to others, playing to people’s desires (the norn seeking strength and power, primarily).

adormtil.1605:

Yeah 9 but only 1 actually did the work of killing him.

Uh…

Unlike in GW2, in GW1 the NPCs and party members were just as effective as the party leader.

adormtil.1605:

But think like that if the dragons are stronger then the gods then after they one killed by being bombed and the other killed in his own mind while he was the dragon of mind really talking about being defeated at your own game how do they dare to call themselves gods if they are so weak?

No one ever said the dragons are stronger than the gods.

It’s said the dragons rival the gods.

And you really need to pay attention to how Mordremoth and Zhaitan are killed. Zhaitan was starved for weeks and then bombarded with weapons specifically made to harm him. Mordremoth was fought both internally (in his mind) and externally (Dragon’s Stand meta) and killed nigh-simultaneously there. He was distracted the entire time we fought him in his mind, by an entire army fighting him and depriving him of his food source.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

• Another Pale Tree (can’t find image again, so it wasn’t main site stuff)

[…]

The music of the Borderlands is a remix, it seems, of some Elona music. I can’t provide specifics now as I’m not at home, unfortunately, so I will later. Further, the Lich Tower corner of the map eerily matches that of the northern Desolation in theme and of course, undead-ness.

I wanted to clarify these since I’m now home… but it seems that I have to scour the internet for the image and the song used/similar to the one used…

However, another thing I just noticed: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Point_of_No_Return_5.jpg

“They belong to the dragon now” – a line used in the HoT trailer, but what’s curious is that the image shows Chak.

Kind of hints to the theory that Chak might be the DSD’s minions (I do find it weird the asura learned about them from the Nuhoch when they supposedly came underground in the Maguuma Jungle area – like the asura).

Jaken.6801:

- We don´t go into sidestory stuff (which we should in my opinion. So many open questions) and head towards the Crystal Desert for one simple thing: Answers . We still got Glints layer there, if I am not mistaken. Maybe we can go in there.

Extra: RYTLOCK EX MACHINA: Our too cool for explanation Charr finaly spills the beans and we get on a completly different journey, following Glints glourious lagacy, as we only know where one of four beams went.

It’s pretty obvious that the ‘long term story’ is Glint’s legacy. And given that Rytlock is a Herald, that means him becoming revenant is likely tied into it.

I don’t expect anything on this to be resolved soon™. We won’t see it concluded until we see the Elder Dragon arc concluded.

A Study In Gold has made that pretty clear to me. So has the constant cliffhangers and lack of explaining WHY THE EGG IS SO kitten IMPORTANT TO OUR CHARACTER.

Tapioca.9062:

I don’t think we’re going to be facing the DSD soon solely from a mechanical perspective. Namely, underwater combat is still jank and Anet have focus remarkably little attention towards it. Most elite spec skills I’ve checked on don’t work underwater and the Rev only has one underwater weapon but two underwater weapon slots. If they were planning towards a confrontation with the DSD then I think Anet would have worked to improve or expand upon underwater options now instead of more or less shutting them away.

I would hope that they intend to rework or improve underwater combat with the DSD arc.

And most elite specs do work underwater. It’s just that they work just barely.

Regardless, they’ve placed a few too many subtle hints to the DSD IMHO for it not to soon be involved. Especially since we’re running low on active dragons.

No god was killed by ‘two mortals’.

Dhuum was defeated – not killed – by a half-god and 7 mortals.

Abaddon was killed by 9 mortals (arguably 24 – the 10 henchmen, 12 heroes, Kormir, and PC) who were also blessed by the five other gods.

I’m making this ‘brief’ thread to denote my random, unorganized thoughts on hints ArenaNet may have planted about future plotlines.

End of HoT
First thing I’ll mention is the obvious. At the end of Hearts and Minds, there is a cinematic showing the magic of Mordremoth going into four directions. These directions roughly match the cardinal directions (north, south, east, west). The one that went north struck Tarir and the egg, which becomes active and starts beating indicating it is no longer in stasis, before continuing further into Forsaken Thicket.

Further, if you talk to Rytlock afterwards, he mentions wanting to go after Kralkatorrik, while Braham mentions wanting to go after Jormag.

Raid
Back when the story of the raid was first talked about, one of the things that was said was how it was based after the main story of HoT. In the raid, there are journals, one of which mentions Mordremoth’s death and how that caused a storm that riled all things magical in the area up.

What was also mentioned was how it leads into the next story plot, though how relevant this lead in is, is still unknown. For all we know, it could just be this “windstorm” that was caused by Mordremoth’s death.

HoT promotions
There were a lot of concept art created for Heart of Thorns – or at least presented with the HoT promotions. Yet very few made it into the game. Notable ones include:

• Three dragon heads coming from waves
• Another Pale Tree (can’t find image again, so it wasn’t main site stuff)

Then there is, of course, the trailer showing a war against sylvari (Canach’s (in)famous line “stop treating us like monsters”)

The New Borderlands
I find it rather strange for a jungle-focused expansion to add a desert borderland. Stranger still was all the not-so-subtle yet apparently never talked about aspects of it.

The music of the Borderlands is a remix, it seems, of some Elona music. I can’t provide specifics now as I’m not at home, unfortunately, so I will later. Further, the Lich Tower corner of the map eerily matches that of the northern Desolation in theme and of course, undead-ness.

Story Trinkets
In Season 2, a series of ascended trinkets were added. Half of them – Wynne’s Locket, Ogden’s Ankh, Aspect Amulet, Ventari’s Chisel, Caithe’s Blossom, and Caithe’s Remorse – was based on the events of Season 2, either directly or indirectly. Others seem randomly added: Jurah’s Jewel, Sandford Family Ring, Forgotten Band, Plague Signet, Verata’s Seared Ring, and Quetzal Crest.

However, as one may note, two of those have proven related to HoT. Forgotten and Quetzal both play a role – indirectly and directly – in the HoT maps. Even Verata may hold an indirect relevants, albeit with a lot of stretching: one of the guild hall NPCs had a bad run in with Isgarren, who lives in the Wizard’s Tower that Verata was near.

This shows a possibility not only that the other seemingly-randomly-added could still play a role, but also shows that the four added in HoT should follow the same theme. And they do: one of four is directly related, three are seemingly unrelated:

Mordrem Loop is directly related. Janthir’s Gaze; Abaddon’s Cowl; Sun, Moon, and Stars are seemingly unrelated… or are they?

Janthir is related, indirectly, to the White Mantle whom we know are behind bandits and that’s the plot of the raid. So thus we have two related, two seemingly unrelated.

Future plots may show relevance to these ‘seemingly unrelated’ items.

Conclusion
All of the above leads me to believe thus:

We’ll initially get a plot related to Krytan conflicts. Canach’s scene in the trailer wasn’t for HoT but Season 3, showing the aftermath of the revelation we never had time to witness in civilized Tyria. The raid, which I suspect will end with a fight against Lazarus, will lead into the White Mantle’s open return, and the plot will focus with a new map north of Brisban Wildlands and perhaps include Malyck’s tree in a different part of the season (if S3 is like S2, we’ll get two maps – one east of Tangeld Depths and one north of Brisban sounds like a good probability so long as Anet doesn’t throw a curve ball).

Following this, I see two possibilities. Either we’ll go into the Crystal Desert and seeing the edge of Joko’s domain, to fight Kralkatorrik. Or the DSD will make a move and our attention will be pulled from the established dragons once again.

One would think that ArenaNet would have learned their lesson when they fixed this very issue with the temples and trait obtaining before they changed the system to the current specialization system.

And yet Bolt, Nevermore, and other legendary collections require events to fail.

What.

Andraus.3874:

Yep he touched you.

Point out on this doll where the Mad King touched you.

Actually, the gods are said to be on par to the gods.

I disagree. Zhaitan established his risen as an actual kingdom with a military hierarchy by putting the ones useful to the tasks they had while alive. Jormag has taken upon the role of a religious figure.

It’s clearly more than just “destroy the world”. Whether one finds them relatable is another story.

But I don’t think that the villain needs to be relatable to be good. I mean, can you relate to Darth Vadar or Emperor Palpatine? I can’t relate to “rule the galaxy” or the like. But I and many others still find them good villains.

It was an indirect confirmation during Festival of the Four Winds.

Fade mentioned that the land they previously visited was one of the “culturally colorful ports of call” and that the new decorations we saw came from there. That kind of praise doesn’t really happen unless the place is either prosperous, or feigning prosperity.

Marjory, who is of Canthan descent, mentioned that the decorations are similar to the things her grandfather had. Unforutnately, it seems that folks never recorded that dialogue on the wiki…. Hmmm.

Edit: Luckily, got a screenshot of that line:

None of the mordrem are corrupted… the Mordrem Bonebreakers are grown – like all other mordrem. Vinetooths as well.

The only mordrem not grown would be the first gen Mordrem Guards, whom don’t seem to even be corrupted at all given the Rata Novus story instance achievement to talk to the mordrem guard.

There was a thread on this a long while back. The figures haven’t really changed all that much since then though. The end consensus was the charr being highest population in continental Tyria, but humans likely still having the highest population in the world.

Most continental Tyrian societies suffered greatly in the past 250 years – asura had Primordus as well as the Great Golem Uprising; norn had Jormag; humans had the centaur war, war with charr, and the rising of Orr.

Only charr haven’t really suffered but instead expanded – even when the Dragonbrand struck, it only struck less than a half of the charr lands as said charr lands extend to the far east.

However, if you’re counting non-continental Tyria as well, humans are far more widespread. Aside from the deminished Elonian population (which as of 50 years ago still existed), we have the xenophobic and (recently confirmed) prosperous nation of Cantha. Then there’s whatever lands Preceptor Doern Velazquez comes from.

Diovid.9506:

If you’re counting the lands of the other legions, why are you not counting the lands of other humans? Because there are two whole nations of humans still out there: Cantha and Elona. Although, unlike the three legions, the three human nations do not have an alliance with eachother (and are unlikely to form one).

All charr legions are in continental Tyria. They’re just not all in Central Tyria (what we see as the World Map in-game for the most part).

Elona and Cantha, unlike the Blood Legion Homelands east of the Blazeridge and wherever the Ash Legion make their home, are not part of continental Tyria.

Oreithyia.3064:

I personally believe that Hylek have the highest population of the sentient races, since they’ve got the highest the birthrate (i think I remember one of the hyleks in Caledon Forest says s/he’s got to care for over hundred children).
I think second are probably the skritt, because being in a group is essential for staying alive and they all stay relatively close to their burrows, so it is much easier to care for and produce offspring.

Both of those races also have the highest death rates too. Especially the hylek, as only a dozen out of hundreds or thousands survive.

“Hylek are born as nearly helpless tadpoles, with brood mates numbering in the hundreds or even thousands. The tribe oversees care of the new brood of youngsters with minimal effort, leaving individuals to fend for themselves. Food tends to be scarce and the hylek tadpoles that survive are often the most aggressive. Those who fall behind starve to death or are picked off by predators.

When the brood has reached maturity, the hylek hold a coming-of-age festival. During this festival, young hylek compete against each other, demonstrating their skills and showing their value to the tribe. How they perform at this festival will largely determine what path they take in life, whether it’s as a warrior defending the tribe or a merchant dealing with outsiders.

Hylek have a short lifespan, living into their forties if they can avoid a premature death from violence or starvation. Hylek who make it through their harsh lives into old age are deeply respected by the tribe and are often asked for counsel on difficult issues or for judgment during disputes among the tribe."

Jaken.6801:

You also meet risen in the Quaagan sympathy plotline, if I am not mistaken.

You’re mistaken. That’s icebrood in that storyline.

Ogre= branded
Grawl and quaggan = icebrood
hylek = risen
skritt = destroyer

adormtil.1605:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

You face Branded in the ogre plot line.

Well that is my point that was another elder dragon that hurt our friends not a Zaitan. What reason did we had then to go against Zaitan?
We should have went against the elder dragon with a very complex name.

Zhaitan attacked Claw Island and killed your mentor – who by that point was a good friend to the PC (ability to show this questionable).

And if you’re charr, human, or sylvari you had even more dealings (Rissa/Howl, Kellach, Mazdak respectively), and if you went to help the hylek even more.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I always wondered why there are no centaur like off-spring of the Pale Tree. I mean Ventari spent a lot of time there and he probably died there too. On top of that he also had atleast one follower, Ehrgen Windmane, who also resided at the Pale Tree. So there could be enough bodies for a template.

By this argument, given recent lore in Rata Novus (part of one of the events), the Rata Novus krewes took occasional refuge at Ventari’s sanctuary.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rata_Novus_Console_%28Rata_Novus%29

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I think Vinetooths are corrupted Bonebreakers, the larger version of the Rolling Devils. We saw one of them in the PAX trailer, in the scene it chases some players until they jump of a cliff and glide away.

We see Mordrem Bonebreakers and Mordrem Rolling Devils. Vinetooths are much different than any Saurian we’ve seen.

I think you’re looking at it the wrong way.

Firstly, just because they have no centralized government doesn’t mean they don’t have views what makes a good leader – after all, they do have leaders, be it leaders of hunting parties or of homesteads.

Secondly, they’re judging Jennah for her individual actions and not judge her for the actions and well-being of Kryta as a whole – as others, like many humans, asura, and charr, would.

Humans, charr, asura would call Jennah a bad leader when the human settlement in Kessex Hills gets attacked by surprise. Norn would call Jennah a bad leader when she doesn’t retaliate against the attackers.

Humans, charr and asura would call Jennah a bad leader when a minister is defamed. Norn would call that minister a bad person when he gets defamed.

To me, that makes perfect sense.

Perhaps me saying “rule with an iron fist” led to confusion. What the norn look down on Jennah for is not removing her enemies (what many non-norn would call ruling with an iron first – when one forcibly removes all opposition to their own regime).

Literally the post above yours mentions that…

In all honesty, I’m surprised they didn’t bring the no longer accessible due to being PvP only skins back.

Tribal and Apostate for light.
Stalwart and Maurader for medium.
Heavy scale for heavy.

HoT was the perfect time to add them…

And let’s not forget about the three guild armor sets, even though we can still get the chest and the rest are rescaled of another set. I would love for the other pieces to be added to the guild armorer…

Serious Thought.5394:

How do Elder Dragon’s just ~Create~ new species of animal? Vinetooth, Abomination?

How does an artist draw something that doesn’t exist? How does a writer describe a fictional monstrosit?

Abominations are various corpses stitched together. Other cases are just twisted corruption into a new form.

Serious Thought.5394:

Also, who are the giants (risen giant)? Odds of next xpac being Bubbles (DSD)? I may need to know what I can on that one too. You guys rock btw. My last thread had people telling me to quit thief.

Giants are just a race that’s rarely seen anymore. Rather hermit like.

IMO odds are highest for Bubbles or Kralkatorrik. But it’s highly speculativer regardless.

Serious Thought.5394:

Edit: Off note, was debating playing GW1 (will probably get it for Xmas, knowing my procrastination qualities). Who are the two characters on front of platinum edition of official website?

I always say it is worth it but it is important to note that it is a very different game from GW2.

I don’t recall who is on Platinum but if I recall it is Jora and Eve. A norn and a human.

@Drax: I’m on my phone so it’d be he’ll to reply and quote it all but me stating the Dream is protection is not theory. ArenaNet explicitly stated this in Points of Interest episode 18.

Serious Thought.5394:

Next question: Once an Elder Dragon loses its Mouth/Eyes/whatever-goes-next, can it recreate them?

Risen Mouth and Eyes are destroyed, can they be remade? Mouth of Mordremoth is destroyed repeatedly, is that why?

In most cases, the Eyes/Mouths/Claws are just dragon champions. They function no differently than other dragon champions. In the case of Eyes of Zhaitan and Mouths of Zhaitan, they were champions with unique tasks. Many exist at the same time and making more is no hard task.

Mouth of Mordremoth is Mordremoth’s physical body. But per lore, Mordremoth is capable of regrowing his body due to spoiler reasons that you haven’t seen per your first post. Hence the finale which you haven’t seen yet either.

Serious Thought.5394:

So far I got through the Zhaitan story on my only “Left the Mists” character. Are they vastly different through the whole way, or do the story lines merge and get the same plot roughly when you reach Orr? I know of course Race, Trauma, and Order decide at least until 50. Not sure past that. Not to be rude though, can I get a few answers to above? I like to take my answers in chunks instead of a steady stream, that way I don’t get hyper distracted with more questions.

Chapters 1-3 (levels 10, 20, and 30) are determined by your race and biography. Chapters 4 and 6 determined by your order (chosen at end of chapter 3). Chapter 5 is based on a selection determined by your race, is chosen at end of chapter 4, and is influenced by your order. Chapter 7 is determined by a choice in the middle of chapter 6. And chapter 8 is the same for all but there are story splits that require three playthroughs to get every possible storyline experienced.

Serious Thought.5394:

Again thank you though ^.^ OH. What does DSD stand for? Dragon Second Domain? Been seeing it in a lot of dragon based topics.

Deep sea dragon, the second dragon to wake up who awoke very far from continental Tyria. It’s the reason why the krait, southern quaggan, largos, and karka are so heavily ashore in Tyria. It’s name – as well as the name of its minions or really anything beyond its general location – is unknown.

Argon.1563:

Dragon minions are just immune to eachother’s corruption. Its just an aspect of how they work. So no, risen mordrem can’t exist, however, dragon magic can coexist within the same entity, demonstrated by The Inquest within the Crucible of Eternity, having several monsters which are able to use magical abilities based off more than one dragon.

You just contradicted yourself in saying that they can’t exist then saying they can…

There is NOTHING that says dragon minions are immune to each others’ corruption. Sylvari immunity is explicitly stated by the Pale Tree to be from the Dream.

Argon.1563:

its also implied that one of the reasons for Glint attempting to kill Kralkatorrik was because she wanted to devour his magic to become an Elder Dragon.

False. It was said it is believed she could have rose to become an Elder Dragon, but that wasn’t why she betrayed Kralkatorrik.

The Forgotten performed a ritual which gave Glint – then known as Glaust (even that wasn’t her original name) – her free will again, and after some time she realized that Kralkatorrik wanted to destroy all things and that the races she was defending her then-master from were worth keeping around (revelation caused by reading minds – both Kralkatorrik’s and of the races). This is why she betrayed Kralkatorrik – a change of heart.

Argon.1563:

the only organic dragon we know of being Kunnavang

Shiny, Albax, Kunie, the hundreds of Salspray Dragons all disagree with you. As do the dozens of Dragon Mosses, Turtle Dragons, etc. that all live in Cantha.

Argon.1563:

Glint also may have been an organic dragon that was later corrupted by Kralkatorrik, however, im not sure if this is confirmed.

More or less is. It’s said that free will was returned to her – in order for such to happen, it had to have been taken away, which is what dragon corruption does to the victims: removes free will.

Serious Thought.5394:

They cannot be corrupted by Zhaitan, because can’t conquer another’s minions?

This is pure player speculation that is one of the ‘universally accepted but unproven ’facts’ of the community’ which trying to explain how it’s not the case will lead to one massive headache as if you were ramming your head into a brick wall.

Serious Thought.5394:

The questions: Did Morde awaken when the Sylvari did? Why can’t dragon minions get taken over? If Zhaitan is truly dead (confirm?), can’t Morde now take Risen and turn them into Risen Mordrem? Can Dragon Champions (a la Scarlet) gather minions of their own, or are they bestowed? If they can self gather, can they theoretically take the power place of an elder dragon? Since Elder Dragon’s are not born and are thus MADE, does killing them serve any purpose other than buying time?

• No. Sylvari began to be born in 1302 AE. Mordremoth awoke in 1327 AE. Mordremoth did, however, wake up due to a sylvari – specifically Scarlet Briar.
• Technically, they can. Sylvari are not immune due to being dragon minions – like most people think despite no evidence – but instead because they’re protected by the Dream and Nightmare. They are not the only beings linked to the Dream, the White Stag is for example, and the nature of the Dream remains a mystery. It is also known that Mordremoth is connected to the Dream as well, and this is how he turned the sylvari to serve him (communicating with them via the Dream). We see in the Crucible of Eternity dungeon some creatures – Kudu’s Monster and Subject Alpha (story and explorable mode respectively) – that were corrupted by multiple dragon energies.
• Anet has said he is dead. In theory Mordremoth could but Mordremoth is never shown corrupting animals – each Elder Dragon corrupts a specific kind of thing primarily (but not solely! This seems to be a self-imposed preference of sorts – they are capable of corrupting, well, anything besides divine magic!), and for Mordremoth that ‘specific kind of thing’ is plants, just as for Zhaitan it was corpses. There are known cases where Mordremoth uses corrupted plants to control corpses however.
• Creating minions and spreading corruption is a defining attribute of a dragon champion. Also, Scarlet wasn’t a dragon champion necessarily – she never spread corruption or created minions.
• In theory. That’s the thought behind Tequatl’s power boost after Zhaitan’s death. It should also be noted that nothing says dragon champions can create corruption – only spread it. Though it’s likely that they can, unless Glint was a bit of an oddball.
• Nothing says Elder Dragons cannot be born as such. Because, quite simply, we don’t know what Elder Dragons are. As for what killing them does… that’s a whole different issue that isn’t yet clear to us.

Serious Thought.5394:

Conspiracy needing details: Mordrem and Toxic share a characteristic- Sylvari powered, multi creature army. Mordrem have Husks (what are those), Terragriffs (what are those), and those spinny eye ball things (what are those??). Toxic have hyper powered Sylvari and Krait. SOOOOOO- does Mordremoth (dead or alive, idk. fractured at the minimum) control Krait as well?

The “Toxic” are little more than poisoned creatures. Though it’s been theorized that the pollens and such which poison the creatures’ minds are tied to Mordremoth, the lack of such in HoT implies otherwise. The toxic creatures aren’t ‘hyper powered’ either.

As to what each mordrem are (the ‘spinny eyeball things’ are called Thrashers) – they’re all grown corrupted plants.

As said, lack of Toxic creatures imply no, no control by Mordremoth. Rather disappointing, personally. They really failed to deliver to the potential the Mordremoth arc had.

Serious Thought.5394:

Also, who is Scarlet? The in game lore is VERY lackluster, and I had taken a hiatus for most of the Scarlet story. Sadly. So I may be waaay off, but friend told me that Scarlet made Toxic.

She’s a sylvari who played god and tried to understand all things and in return touched Mordremoth’s mind who began whispering orders into her, making her think they were her own thoughts, her own ideas (what he does to all sylvari – those falling to his orders became Mordrem Guard after Mordremoth woke).

As to Scarlet making the Toxic Alliance… yes and no. She organized the get-together, but the magic used for such was made by themselves, and turning themselves.

adormtil.1605:

What friend what hylek? What story did I played?

Hylek racial sympathy story plot. It’s the only one where you encounter risen during the racial sympathies.

Friend with charr = Howl, whom was your warband mate (unfortunately given that Anet decided to wipe out your warband in the tutorial you never actually got to talk to him outside 3 sentences).

Vlad.1739:

TLDR: I only have problem with how the plot ends with going behind enemy lines every single game to win with no deviation. Tired of being Tyria’s Commando Squad.

Zhaitan seems to be a slight exception like Prophacies. GW1 plots were the same with Shiro, Abaddon and great destroyer. Prophecies was more complex bigger plot but also included the going behind enemy lines plot

You are right in that it follows typical plot of heroic quest. I think Anet needs to deviate from this. Especially with the part about going behind enemy lines with your crew. Every single GW game did that. Why do we always need to do the go behind enemy lines. For example, why not have a plot where we just have no idea how to win and are forced to fight the foe head on. No going behind enemy lines we kill the minions at great loss and we brute force the antagonist shear grit. Or another example allow/force said antagonist to come out and fight due to reasons. They surely can vary the final part of the formula. They do vary the plot in between the first 3 steps.

Pardon, but when has evil army leaders ever not been protected by his army?

And… fighting the army head on is what Factions and Zhaitan plot did. It’s what Mordremoth plot did too. Yet you called it ‘going behind enemy lines’.

None ever get mentioned or named, really, but we do know that humans do have communal teaching methods. It’s just never actually called “school” or “college” afaik.

Vlad.1739:

Does it not bother anyone else that Anet resolves its plot the same way each GW game for the major antagonists?
1) What happens each game there is this enemy something bad happens to drive hero to do something.
2) Go find out who the bad guy is and/or how to beat’em up.
3) Get means to win
4) Go behind enemy lines and exploit weaknesses researched in earlier parts.

Post would be huge if i summarized each games plot. The above is what the plot boils down to for the most part every single GW game. Especially the part about going behind enemy line with your elite crew of heroes to eliminate the antagonists. GW plot always solved the same way.

When you boil a plot down that much, then that’s pretty much every heroic story out there.

So no, that doesn’t bother me.

When you don’t boil it down to the base principles, then the build up and fight against Zhaitan isn’t akin to the one against Mordremoth. Simplifying the Zhaitan plot:

• You build up your own status among your own people.
• Get recruited by a multi-racial order due to your prowess and capabilities, allowing you to further build your status people, helping lesser races and experiencing the threat of the Elder Dragons in general along the way.
• Repel a massive attack at the cost of a friend.
• Build the forces of the Pact so that it can take the fight to Zhaitan.
• Take the fight to Zhaitan, slowly weakening him along the way.
• Kill Zhaitan.

The plot of Mordremoth (going from Season 1 as imo that is the true beginning):

• Help the major races in repelling major assaults on them, seeing new heroes rise up to fill the void you had left when you joined the Orders, and helping them as you had mentors to help you.
• Finding out the mastermind of of said assaults and attempting, but failing, to counter said mastermind.
• Investigate what said mastermind put into motion. Upon revelation build the forces of the Pact so that it can take the fight to Mordremoth.
• Get side-tracked by a vision and investigate its meaning and importance, then seek out the subject of the vision.
• Return to find out that the Pact has been decimated and remaining mentor figures had been captured. Head out to recover the Pact and rescue said mentor figures, half-failing to do so.
• Get side-tracked again by hopeful revelation that turns out null.
• Take the fight to Mordremoth, having a Dues Ex Machina revelation along the way.
• Kill Mordremoth.

Overall, when heavily simplified, the plots are not that similar.

Yes, you’re still fighting a big massive dragon. Yes, you build up forces before fighting that big massive dragon, but the method to fight the big massive dragon differs, and there’s this side-plot that Zhaitan didn’t have which is the egg. Even if you take out the egg and McGuffin Caithe (yes, Caithe is the McGuffin in this storyline as her taking of the egg was done solely to lengthen the length of S2, give players the sylvari reveal, and keep the PC away from the Pact Fleet launch – when the explanation came for her reason it was “I dunno… I just did it.”), the plot would still differ. And it differs more if you take out S1.

adormtil.1605:

I never understood what the elder dragon Zaitan did to the non sylvari hero. I mean really now what did he do?
It was nothing actually the bandits and centaurs did more then Zaitan and I did not see the hero doing genocide on them. Really Zaitan did nothing to us and yet we went and killed him.

1. Threaten you, your friend, or your leader (sylvari + hylek, charr + hylek, human respectively).
2. Killed your friend (mentor).
3. Be a threat to all known civilization.
4. Launch a war.

Typically those are enough for a hero of good virtue to go out to kill a big bad.

Vlad.1739:

Primordius in theory has very threatening minions when compared to other dragons. They are a hive mind based army therefore highly effective in army based combat provided destroyer leading them is a good at commanding them.

All dragon minions are hive-mind based. Every single one.

Which is why the sylvari, whom are not, is an oddity amongst dragon minions.

Part of why everything about Mordremoth makes him an oddball to the other six.

Vlad.1739:

Destroyers in GW1 were fairly oppressive to fight and tough to kill. In GW1 this is seemingly retconned. Destroyers forced almost the entire Asuran race to the surface. In theory Destroyers are dangerous foes. but with their downgrade in GW2 not so sure. Supposedly Dwarfs are still fighting destroyers underground. That is a hit on Primordious because of his lack of success in winning. Conclusion Destroyers are contenders for most dangerous minions, in theory.

To be fair, everything that was tough in GW1 is now easy in GW2. Wurms were great massive and lumbering beasts that were fairly tough individually to a full party – the incubi would slaughter any ill-prepared party. In GW2, wurms are laughable and the incubi have been renamed as bats (same appearance, different names) and we all know how stupidly easy bats are.

Further, we only fight the very beginning breaches of destroyers on the surface – as we see with risen and mordrem, the further from the territory the minions go, the weaker they are – unless brought in army-size by a dragon champion.

And the dwarves underwent a ritual that made them specifically capable of fighting destroyers well. So knocking Primordus down for not being the dwarves (which is hinted he has in S2 by saying that Ogden is the last dwarf and not simply the last dwarf on the surface) is a bit unfair.

Vlad.1739:

Mordrem guard act intelligently with some semblance of military tactics.

So did the Orrian risen… something that a lot of players seem to forget – and ArenaNet clearly did themselves too. Mordrem Guard are said to be intelligent, but all we see of this so-called intelligence is patrols, fortifications, leadership, and taking corpses. The risen did all of these.

It wasn’t highlighted as being special. Because at the time, it wasn’t. Why the Mordrem Guard are so special for being ‘intelligent’ is beyond me. They’re no more talkative than our “Death, good!” friends in Orr.

“There has been no true Khan-Ur for over a thousand years. Although the position has been claimed several times, no Charr has been able to hold the crown for more than a handful of years, certainly not enough time to solidify the title or create a new lineage. Each one has been overthrown shortly after making the daring claim; the Charr accept no ruler who is not strong enough to defend his throne.”

[…]

“The primus warband of any legion carries the name of that legion–Ash, Blood, Iron and in the case of the Gold Legion, Flame. This singular [warband] is hereditary, but the leader must claim the name through blood challenge–a fight between descendants of the Khan-Ur for supremacy within the legion.”

“Occasionally, non-descendants of the Khan-Ur join the primus warband, taking the name of their leader as their own, as is Charr tradition. But the leader of the primus is always a descendant of the Khan-Ur, the foremost heir of the legion and their rightful inheritor of the crown of leadership among the Charr.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

These are important facts to consider, and come from the same source that only a Khan-Ur’s descendant can be an Imperator.

All descendants appear to be within the Primus Warband of each legion. So no, not “most likely most charr” is not the case, for then everyone would be in the Primus Warband.

As to why they remain so few in number: they kill each other off to vie for the title. Any who tries to claim the title doesn’t last long due to either being killed, or failing to uphold the claim which would no doubt result in exile or execution. And no doubt there’d be the stereotypical selective breeding to ensure the bloodline stays strong.

Jennah is regarded as weak by the norn because she doesn’t rule with an iron fist. She doesn’t start a civil war (what would no doubt happen) by ousting the Ministers who are trying to dethrone her (Caudecus and co.).

She, however, is not weak – neither as ruler nor as an individual. Rather than the open conflict that the individualistic norn would prefer, Jennah uses the same tools as her enemies: subterfuge.

There are Ascalonians who don’t like her influencing them but that’s largely a disgruntled few. And the Krytans vying against Kryta care too little about spreading the nation as they are actively working with the bandits, White Mantle, and centaurs while ignoring the threat of the Elder Dragons.

If Caudecus and co (whom are not as much of a majority as you make them out to be) are so willing to give up lands to centaurs and sell their citizens into slavery via proxy or bandits, I doubt they care so much for LA.

Jaken.6801:

Adding to that Primordus is most likely using heat, not fire directly (don`t remember corrupted fire). His minions are molten stone, lava or magma (depending how deep we are under the earth ), so he is more alike to using heat energy. So him being part of the earth, rocks is certainly valid.

I’ll admit that Primordus corrupting fire is a bit iffy, but I was getting it from how destroyers are formed in pools of lava (per EoD and GW1). In GW1 said pools of lava is different from all other lava in the game, being brighter and not having the same effect (only burning while all other lava burns and cripples).

Further, all of his minions and corruption results in fire and lava. It’s not just that he’s using fire to corrupt, it’s that his corruption takes the form of fire.

Jaken.6801:

We see Kalkatorik using a lot of lightning and he creates crystals. He could be the crystal dragon, however what if the energy and heat of his lightning just manifests in crystal form, like when lightning hits sand and creates glass and other crystalin structures.
Though with theme I would have rather have him wield light and be more illusionary. The theme is just too perfect for it.

Kralkatorrik does use lightning, but he corrupted via a “golden gale”. His corruption can spread by crystals corrupting things by encasing them, lightning striking things, fire striking things, or wind striking things.

His first domain by all indication is Crystal.

And if Glint’s magic shows it well, his second domain is Sky/Air – which divides into wind, sun, and lightning.

Nothing about Kralkatorrik is illusionary. Nada.

Jaken.6801:

Even the Raid is only speculation, based on a unintentional comment from a dev, which might mean something (tentacles) or nothing in the end.

I mean, by that logic and how that particular boss is wielding souls as well, DSD is actually based arounds ghosts and souls (which could be quite interesting. Zaithan brings back the dead to torment you, Mordremoth attacks your mind with your dead and Steve tortures their soul… hey Tybald, want to come around for a third round? )

All indication would point Jormag to being a domain over souls.

Zhaitan had imprisoned souls, however, so it wouldn’t be beyond the realm of the possible for other dragons to do the same. But Jormag is not only the only dragon to be tied to the Mists, but is the only dragon said to corrupt souls themselves.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

While I don’t recall the exact instance*, I’m 100% certain the word “stronger” not more “dangerous” was used to describe Mordremoth in comparison to Zhaitan. The one who said was actually the PC, while talking to one of Destiny’s Edge (Canach maybe, but I’m not sure). It was one those answers you give in the chat box or whatever that dialog thingy is called, so it wasn’t part of the voice acted dialog. However I’m not playing the english language version, so a translation error is within the realm of possibility.

*had to think about it a bit, but I think it was the dialog you can have with DE right before Hearts and Minds. It may have been Rytlock’s conversation that led to the PC saying that Mordremoth is even stronger than Zhaitan.

I’m referring to dialogue throughout Season 2, where the PC repeatedly calls Mordremoth just ‘the greatest threat’. Such as during Summit Invitations:

Braham: And then, our people will have two dragons attempting to destroy us all. We have to challenge the greatest threat first.
PC: Exactly. Right now, Mordremoth is wreaking the most damage upon Tyria.

That kind of conversation is repeated for every meeting with world leaders throughout The Dragon’s Reach parts 1 and 2.

I don’t recall any statement of Mordremoth being stronger than Zhaitan in HoT though…

Commander/Duke Wade Samuelsson. He leads the Ebon Vanguard and is the Duke of Ebonhawke.

Yes, they do.

No, in fact if you do the events and hearts in Fields of Ruin and southern Blazeridge Steppes, the treaty is giving Ascalonians more land. Some have theorized that Smodur will eventually give them the land between the Dragonbrand and the Blazeridge Mountains in the area.

Like the entire game, it is not built to scale. Otherwise you’d be spending hours running from one end of DR to the other. There are hundreds of houses in DR and Ebonhawke all the same, plenty to house a city’s worth of population if you consider that the entire map is downscaled for gameplay enjoyability.

No, if you read Sea of Sorrows you’d know that the royal family have officially declared Lion’s Arch as separate. And we know Jennah isn’t interested in starting up rivalries with them, given that she’s established treaties and alliances with them.

I’m pretty sure having your head impaled does a bit more than knocking out.

And I don’t think anyone said that the tail is proof that Zhaitan’s dead. I said it’s proof that the Pact went to ground level to around where Zhaitan fell. Which means that they would have also gone nearby his corpse. Or have acknowledged that the corpse was missing. (Fun fact: He also loses an arm and a wing during the fight).

@Jaken: Asgeir’s weapon is unknown. Only spear in relation to Elder Dragons is the one Rytlock tried to use on Kralkatorrik at Glint’s directions.

Forgotten built Tarir’s foundations, Exalted finished the job.

None of them, really.

For the most part, asura in the books are largely normalized. Playing GW1 would give a better view of stereotypical asura.

That said, I’d still suggest reading the books. They’d be either entertaining or informative in lore (I found GoA and SoS being entertaining and EoD was more informative with lore).

Ghosts of Ascalon would suit your wants most though.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I’ve never said in my post that either Zhaitan or Mordremoth are the strongest. I just said that the HoT story informes us that Mordremoth is even stronger than Zhaitan. Which I interpreted as Mordremoth being stronger at that point compared to Zhaitan when the Pact attacked him above Arah.

And what we said is that they don’t say Mordremoth is stronger than Zhaitan. They present him as being a more dangerous threat – as well as the most of the ED (at the time) – which is not the same as stronger.

They said Mordremoth is a bigger threat because it was able to spread so far so fast and could attack anywhere from underground…

Ignoring the fact that Primordus can do the same, and that even Zhaitan had attacks from underground (assault on Chantry of Secrets anyone?)…

The more I observes the story, the more I facepalm at these things.

No. There was an event in gw1 called sweet treat week, which is ongoing now, and it’s lore was that a single guild (Fraturnal Order of Bakers and Brewers) would sell seasonal pies and ale during the time, but there was no holiday.

No, it is not ‘obviously’ at all.

We know Zhaitan’s and Mordremoth’s two domains because they were told to us. Following the nickname of the dragons which is the first domain – Elder Death Dragon, Elder Plant Dragon aka Jungle Dragon – we can guess the first domain of the other four pretty easily because they have the same kinds of nicknames (Elder Fire Dragon, Elder Ice Dragon, Elder Crystal Dragon).

The DSD is not once called “Elder Water Dragon”. The DSD’s only nickname is in relation to its location. Deep Sea Dragon comes from the same coining that called Kralkatorrik the ‘desert dragon’ or Zhaitan the “orrian dragon” or Primordus the ‘rock dragon’ – it’s where they are not what their domain is.

Furthermore, the first domain – based off of the nicknames – is also the form in which their corruption takes shape. Plants, death/decay, ice, fire, and crystal.

The DSD’s corruption takes the form of tentacles as far as we are told. It corrupts water, but it doesn’t take the form of water – he twists water into tentacled creatures.

If we go off of that – our sole piece of information on the DSD’s minions’ appearance – then the DSD’s first domain is not water but tentacles. His nickname would be the Elder Tentacle Dragon.

That seems unlikely to me.

Whatever his domain is, it’s not water from what we know. Water is its location. Water is what it corrupts, not what it corrupts into.

So unless he corrupts water into corrupted water – entirely possible since Primordus corrupts fire into corrupted fire – its domain isn’t water. And even if it is, we don’t know that, because what we know points to “domain of tentacles”.

Elder Dragons gain strength by how much magic they consume, per lore as I understand it. As we are told in Hidden Arcana, the longer a dragon is awake the more powerful it becomes.

That means that the ones who had access to the most magic for the longest time become the most threatening.

Typically, because of this, I’d argue Primordus – he was the first to awaken by all accounts, and is deep underground which means he’d probably be close to many ley lines. Furthermore, he has six Rata Sum-like citadel cities of the asura that were abandoned to munch the magic from. That’s a huge power boost.

However, I’m going to argue, instead, that the DSD is the strongest. For three reasons:

First, as we’ve recently been led to believe, the DSD apparently awoke around the time Primordus did – like Kralkatorrik, Primordus awoke on its own thus woke up late, which would place its awakening close to when the DSD awoke like how Kralkatorrik awoke close to when Mordremoth did. Either way, we know the DSD was second to awaken per The All cinematic in S2 and the trial of strength in HoT both following the same order which for the other five is the awakening order.

Secondly, the DSD pushed out the krait of their homeland. Not only that, it pushed out the karka. That means its forces are more powerful than either the krait and karka – powerful enough to make a civilization claimed to be as ferocious and threatening as the charr run with its tail between their non-existent legs. His forces even make the largos decide to train their apprentices on the shores of Tyria instead of in their homeland which its attacking currently.

Thirdly, on top of the two above, it had the Krait Obelisks to munch magic from. During S1, the Obelisk Shards are said to function a lot like the Bloodstone Shards – they’re storing powerful magic… and the DSD has access to hundreds of them unhindered for at least 50 years.

Finally, in the Infinite Coil Reactor, some Inquest are talking about how huge the captured minion for the Zone Blue is – that’s the DSD’s sector. A simple minion is huge. And with size, there’s also often pure massive strength just from the fact that they’re large and weigh a lot.

But ultimately, the strongest will be the last one standing because, quit simply, it means that it had the most time to consume magic that isn’t consumed by other Elder Dragons (and the fewer Elder Dragons, the fewer competition). As it stands, the torch likely goes to Primordus or the DSD, but if we kill them both and leave Kralkatorrik for last (which would go against the Pact MO which is ‘kill the most immediate threat first’) and give Kralkatorrik enough time to consume the magic of the world then Kralkatorrik’s strength will rival what Primordus or the DSD or any other had individually.

@adormtil: Primordus isn’t a ‘vanguard’ – the Great Destroyer was Primordus’ ‘vanguard’ if there ever was one, in the same light that Drakkar and Svanir were Jormag’s, Glint was supposed to be Kralkatorrik’s, and Scarlet was Mordremoth’s.

The Elder Dragons are not allied – they’re just not actively aggressive either.

Primordus was first to awaken, but not the vanguard for the other Elder Dragons.

As to the Great Destroyer “awoken quite often in history more then he should” – this is false. There’s only two points in history the Great Destroyer was known to be awake: during the previous dragonrise, and to start up the current one. The Great Destroyer – like Drakkar, Glint, and most likely others – is just a herald dragon champion; a champion intended to wake up early (or remain active, like Glint did) to give their Elder Dragon a ‘wake up meal’. Every dragon, as best we can tell, except Kralkatorrik had one – and Kralkatorrik lacked one only because Glint betrayed him.

@BuddhaKeks and Mushroomz: Zhaitan and Mordremoth were never ‘the strongest’ nor even ‘the most dangerous’ but rather they were ‘the most immediate threat’.

And this is because, unlike the other Elder Dragons, they had a head start. Zhaitan awoke in a kingdom full of corpses and magical artifacts to consume, while Mordremoth was given leyline breakfast in bed.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

He calls himself Tequatal.

But seriously, zhatain is dead. We got his tail, we see his body in the background of arah dungeon cutscenes, and the dungeon currency is bits of his remains (shards of zhaitan).

Clearly his energy travled out, hitting teq on the way, and probably also a bit to Mordy to help kick off his actions through Scarlett, and certainly the other dragons (I thought the devs said that)

While purely speculative this does seem to be the case, and no the devs didn’t say anything – especially about Tequatl’s power boost, beyond “it’s part of the story”.

I wouldn’t take the concept art in the background of the side-by-side cinematics in Arah explorable to be serious because it shows up in Victory or Death too – before Zhaitan’s death. It’s just the Arah cinematic background. I also wouldn’t take much stock in the “Shards of Zhaitan” item unless you’re going to argue that Zhaitan had so many eyes (which are what the Shards depict) that millions of players can carry around about a thousand or more each. He had plenty of heads, but not that many.

Furthermore, Tequatl is dead now. Unless Tequatl can survive losing his tail, his eye (now part of the Rodgort collection), and Rox is wrong about having killed Tequatl with dozens to hundreds of adventurers.

adormtil.1605:

I am surprised that his champion was stronger then him. I mean really what was Zaitian thinking when he created a immortal champion.

Zhaitan didn’t. In lore, even after Tequatl’s power boost, Zhaitan was stronger.

It took an army to take down Zhaitan, after Zhaitan was starved from magic for weeks.

The only dragon minions claimed to be ‘immortal’ would be Shadow of the Dragon and Mazdak the Accursed, but ‘immortal’ doesn’t mean ‘powerful’.

Teletric.3821:

Then this doesn’t add up. The natural purpose of the Elder Dragons is to balance out the amount of magic is in the world, making sure there isn’t a surplus. If you take one of them down, wouldn’t that cause problems in the future?

In theory.

But that’s a bit of a ways off, and the PC didn’t really know of this until S2, and supposedly this is why Glint’s egg is so kitten important despite it never actually being stated why by, well, anyone.

HaxTester.9816:

They’re like the ghosts of Ascalon, only they are capable of taking a physical form, (although Duke Barradin was able to possess a statue, I don’t know if that counts as “taking physical form”). Where does their spirit linger after their body is destroyed? Do dragons have souls? Apparently yes, because of Glint. Somehow Rytlock was able to commune with Glint in the Mists. Or maybe Glint is a special case, or maybe that’s not how Rytlock got Glint’s power? Hope they indulge our curiosity in Living Story season 3.

Revenants don’t commune with souls. They commune with sapient echoes made by the Mists – or so all not-in-the-game lore on revenants imply.

Think of the champions summoned during Stronghold matches – they’re not souls, because you can have multiple of them up at once. They’re echoes, like the Echo of Turai Ossa seen during S2’s final episode, but they’re sapient and not just repeating history.

adormtil.1605:

Then where is the hero of GW1?

Not being channeled. In theory, they could be (by indication, there were three heroes in GW1 – one per campaign).

And it’s pretty obvious that revenants aren’t channeling the most legendary figures let alone all of them.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

That’s debatable. You can very much play through every campaign with the same character, they even have specific points where the character enters the narration.

Three things:

1. It was confirmed that the Nightfall quests that would take players to Prophecies/Factions was not canon lore. Same would go for Factions to Prophecies. Because the campaigns took place already.
2. It’s impossible for Ogden, Vekk, and the others to have been beneath three different cities that are across the globe at the same time.
3. Young Heroes of Tyria mentions three heroes.
4. It would seem to me that each subsequent campaign added the previous heroes because, as you said, each campaign had a narrative explanation for bringing them into the new land. E.g., Prophecies had 1 hero; Factions had 2; Nightfall had 3; Eye of the North had 3. I only say EN having three due to the presence of Factions and Nightfall henchmen (Zho, Talon, Lo Sha, Herta).

BuddhaKeks.4857:

If anyone even remotely matters it’s Mhenlo, since he had the role of mentor for the Cantha adventure, for non-canthan PCs.

Truth be told, I’m surprised that it was Ventari, not Mhenlo, who became the Revenant’s “healer legendary”.

Fact: Zones are stuck in time. The state of Orr in the open world is perpetually pre-Zhaitan. Same goes for all other zones besides Southsun, Dry Top, Silverwastes, HoT maps, and any dialogue not affected by the Living World (that has made the placement of maps in time odd – half of Kessex is now post-Zhaitan while half is still pre-Zhaitan).

Fact: Dragon minions do not die with the Elder Dragons’ death (if this was so, all sylvari would have died).

Fact: The Pact did go to ground level. They even collected his tail for the Priory to run experiments on. How they managed to get that tail inside the Durmand Priory’s basement is a mystery solvable only by Leeroy Jethro Gibbs.

Fact: ArenaNet has stated Zhaitan is dead. Mind, they’re known to retcon their forum posts and interviews before when a certain female writer is involved.

Now, it wouldn’t be impossible for Zhaitan’s ‘body’ to be dead but his ‘spirit’ being ‘alive’ and having moved to another body – e.g., Tequatl. This is a theory some have been throwing since Tequatl Rising. And Mordremoth only makes it a bit more realistic.

Unlike those named, Deborah does return later on in the story instance.

I think only the racial sympathy named NPCs are in the home instances and show up later (unless you count Mira’s one appearance during The Source of Orr).

Per second post in this thread: Yes.

Like most personal story NPCs, she does not have a place in the open world. The only ones that do are those who show up in HoT maps.

Her “returning to Divinity’s Reach” is just in the story. You can’t actually find her somewhere.

PopeUrban.2578:

I never stated glint designed the ascension trials. The trials were designed by the forgotten, and utilized by Glint and her forgotten allies.

You pretty much were saying that Glint had ordered the Forgotten to make the trials of Ascension just like she did the trials for the Exalted and beneath Tarir.

PopeUrban.2578:

At not point did I state that the forgotten were wholesale slaves or agents of glint.

Slaves? No. But that was the very first thing you said.

“I think separating the forgotten from glint’s agenda isn’t really a valid assumption.”

Which means that the Forgotten never work outside of Glint’s agenda.

PopeUrban.2578:

The vision in Omadd’s machine is not simply image manipulation. The dispersion of the remaining orbs is not merely a lens effect, they are seen physically moving away from the center.

Not when the green orb crashes into the center. They light up in order and circle around, but they all eventually still and then the green orb crashes into the center.

PopeUrban.2578:

Though all of GW1 was a combination of Abbaddon’s various plots to return, and foiling those plots was the primary journey of the PCs, Glint, in the very first release of prophecies, is taking part in that plot for a very different reason.

Yes and no.

The plots were, ultimately, made to be us unwittingly countering Abaddon, but Glint never showed any acknowledgement of a force behind the titans. If she did, then she would never have called the titans (aka the “flame”) to be a force that could destroy both good and evil – because if Glint knew they worked for Abaddon, who is evil, it would not be destroying evil.

PopeUrban.2578:

Many of your rebuttals rely on strictly literal interpretations of text and dialogue spoken or written by entities who have demonstrated a willingness to deliberately mislead from or obfuscate the truth.

And your claims rely strictly on individuals lying when they have no need to.

But aside from hiding the fact he was the Lich and knew what was behind the doors, what did Khilbron hide? What possible reason would he have to see the heroes dead before they could open the door for him? Why would he send them to the Crystal Desert at all when going there would lead to them getting the one tool that ensured they could fight the mursaat? The PCs gave up hope and he led them on the path. If his goal was their death, why would he do this?

All others I quoted never lied at all – to our knowledge – thus your claim is wrong there too.

PopeUrban.2578:

As early as eye of the north we already see the formation of an Exalted-like organization charged with the protection of Glint’s egg. EOTN marks the epilogue of the battle against abbaddon, and sets the stage for the waking of the elder dragons.

The only such thing we see is the Brotherhood of the Dragon protecting Gleam.

No formation of any organization there.

PopeUrban.2578:

As the gods (whom the majority of the forgotten serve) exit, presumably taking many of their forgotten servants with them, those complicit in glint’s greater plan (for whatever reason. Compassion for humans, loyalty to their ally glint, who knows? They are by all accounts free willed creatures.) begin to prepare these crystal sanctuaries and, just as they did in the crystal desert, shepard a and instruct a new group of pilgrims on a new path.

These pilgrims build the crystal sanctuaries alongside the forgotten, learn from the forgotten, and some among them are tested by the forgotten. Those that succeed their tests become exalted.

Those that fail the tests continue to tend the crystals in these sanctuaries until they are driven out by the rise of the elder dragons and the death of glint. Without glint, the crystals that protect them cease to do so, and the sanctuaries are overrun.

Those that remain flee to cantha, build a kite city, and will later be known as the zephyrites. Over time and without any more direct contact with the forgotten or glint, their histories become muddled or willfully distorted to protect the secret of Glint’s egg.

This doesn’t work.

Per A Study in Gold, the Exalted actually came from the Zephyrites – established by the Brotherhood of the Dragon, not Forgotten – who primarily derive from Elonians. This means that the Exalted and Zephyrites were formed roughly the same time – first chosen by the dwarves, then by the Forgotten for the Exalted.

The structures we see in Lost Precipice and Silverwastes predate the Exalted’s formation per A Study in Gold. It seems more likely that they were established by a group that once had a presence in those areas: the Druids.

It should be noted that Lost Precipice lines up with the western edges of the Bloodstone Fen mission (most of it being off the map, mind you), which was a location where the druids post-transformation resided. This sounds far more likely than your claim, in all honesty, given this singular question:

Why?

Why would the Forgotten establish Lost Precipice with humans (we know the Forgotten were there for a time) but not make it a golden cannot-be-consumed-by-dragon-minions location like Tarir and the Gilded Hollows?

And if they were at Lost Precipice and the origins of those structures, that means they were the origins of the structures in Silverwastes – as well as the Shrouded Ruins in Verdant Brink. Which again makes one ask: why did they make those differently?

And it’s not just a matter of the substances of the structures, but the very design. They have two wholly unique appearances in the mere design. Tarir and the Gilded Hollows appearing far more akin to the Hall of Ascension and Hall of Heroes, while the Lost Precipice, Verdant Brink, and Silverwastes are more akin to sandstone versions of the original GW1 Tarnished Coast ruins (just highly worn).

Whether you place the origins on the Forgotten or the people who became the Exalted or the people who became the Zephyrites (which is no different than the people who became the Exalted), it just doesn’t fit because the Forgotten would have been there for that construction like they were for Tarir/Gilded Hollows\.

PopeUrban.2578:

It is entirely possible that the egg that now sits in Tarir is the last such egg (we know Glint birthed an entire brood, not simply one egg) , and that each such outpost held its own egg and its own group of proto-zephyrites and forgotten, caring for their respectiv eggs and training to deicde who among them was worthy to become exalted.

Why would they place all these different eggs in different structures… right next to each other?

While we know that the egg we’ve been seeing is “the last one intact” (per Ogden in Hidden Arcana), it would seem silly to guard and move them… all to the same location, if their survival was paramount. Spreading them across the world would seem a bit more reasonable – at least until their purpose is needed.