I don’t think it’s ever stated if they dream, but they certainly do not return to the Dream of Dreams. That’s a pre-birth experience only. Except in rare, plot-related cases.
Mouth of Mordremoth is Mordremoth, Unbent. Not a champion.
Tequatl came back because he was never killed – it just retreated. Unlike the Mouth.
In lore, the idea is that Mordremoth could regrow its body from its corruption. The entire point of delving into Mordremoth’s connection to the Dream is because the only other way to kill Mordremoth is by destroying all corruption – which due to how fast it spreads is nigh impossible.
As for the dialogue. In all honesty, it makes no sense lore wise so I’ve just been taking it as an unnecessary attempt to explain its repeating nature.
But one theory I made while discussing this with another on reddit is comparing Mordremoth to Ultron in the recent Avengers movie. In it, by connecting to the internet Ultron is capable of controlling multiple bodies – to defeat him, they had to first disconnect him and then destroy every machine body he was already connected to.
Fighting Mordremoth in the Dream could have just been a case of disconnecting him to the Dream, thus isolating his mind in the various bodies he was in possession of – Trahearne and his own (perhaps others?). Thus, Laranthir is wrong due to a misunderstanding on the Pact Commander’s part thinking they killed Mordremoth, and the body of Mordremoth had to be killed ‘one more time’ afterwards.
A bit of a bump but I just noticed something not brought up in the thread:
Each upgrade a guild purchases grants guild experience. When a guild’s total guild experience reaches set thresholds, the guild’s level increases. This unlocks new upgrades for the guild to purchase and occasionally has other subtle effects upon a guild’s hall.
Taken from the guild panel’s Guild Index (on main tab), Guild Level entry.
Dunno about others, but the only ‘subtle effect’ I’ve seen denoted is the crystal changes.
And given that my secondary (smaller) guild has been at the same level for nigh 4 weeks now with no crystal change, I’m betting it’s not time.
And like I said – Francis, according to Kalavier, left the Seraph.
In other words, he has no organization, no military order to which he belongs.
Except the Pact.
Yet he is called Lieutenant.
Also, even in the Zhaitan Arc, individuals worked for/with the Pact without joining the Orders. The Gear Warband, for example, during the Vigil invasion arc, or the asura from Statics or Priestess Rhie during Cathedral of Silence, and dozens more. Even among the Pale Reavers, there are wardens – not members of the Orders, but wardens.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
If he left the Seraph, he would no longer be a lieutenant.
And in the Orr arcs, all Pact members (and not those who decided to join the Pact’s efforts) utilize the Orders’ ranks. Corporal Beirnes? No. Tactician Beirnes. Deborah? Now a crusader. Sergeant Ellye? Now a Crusader. Lionguard Apatia? Now a Crusader.
About Traeharne: everyone I knew in RL who played this game hated Traeharne. All my guildies hated Traeharne. I hated Traeharne. A lot of people who posted on the forums hated Traeharne. We all had different reasons, save that the focus was: “He stole my spotlight.”
Don’t lie to yourself and say that he didn’t steal your spotlight in the PS. At the beginning of the PS, your character says: “This is my story.” And then at the end, it becomes Traeharne’s story.
He didn’t. He NEVER stole a story. And I DARE you to prove that he did. But you can’t, because he never did. Not a single person who claims to hate Trahearne can point out any place where he stole credit. Not. A. One.
Because such a point doesn’t exist. Never existed. And certainly never will.
I really do not believe you at all when you say it’s a “vocal minority” that wanted the spotlight when the story is supposed to be about YOU. Your character. Not an NPC.
It was the same people I saw stating this over and over again. Everyone in my guilds didn’t hate them. The folks I know out of the game do not hate him.
They found him annoying, largely because of his personality and voice acting, like I did, but they did not hate him and they knew he did not steal the spotlight, did not take any credit.
Human commoner storyline. He’s situated in the open world Queensdale for that storyline and was the one who defended the building you didn’t (orphanage or hospital).
He might only have that dialogue for human commoners because he doesn’t say that to my charr or sylvari or any other character I took through there.
Odd that he would retain his original rank, given how the Pact doesn’t have lieutenants.
Jormag will be next. I have an undeniable fact proving it:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arctic_Explorer_Outfit
How is this undeniable? Simple: re-used assets.
Now, you might go to say “but wait, we have the desert borderlands, maguuma jungle, and the Forgotten stuff from HoT! How are those not re-usable assets for the crystal desert?”
Well, true that may be, but there’s one thing you’d overlook if you said that:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jungle_Explorer_Outfit
How is this relevant? Simple. Got a guild hall? Yes? Good, go visit it. I’ll wait.
Did you notice what the NPCs wear? That’s right! Jungle Explorer Outfits.
Explorer Outfits = guild hall NPC apparel.
So they’re prepping for an arctic (aka Far Shiverpeaks) guild hall! The only place we got guild halls was in expansion territory, with every feature requiring HoT ownership except access to the hall. So they won’t be adding any halls for the core gamers (sad, I know, but true).
Now, why would the guild hall NPC apparel override all these other assets, you may ask? Simple, again!
Gemstore determines all.
There’s only three combat groups of non-Pact central Tyria forces in HoT: The S.C.A.R. lane warband (individuals pulled from Fireheart Rise, part of the Iron Legion), and Lieutenant Francis seen at the entrance of Auric Basin, and then two mercenaries (an asura and a norn) seen wandering through Tarir. Everyone else – sans the nobles – are Pact afaik.
So why doesn’t Zhaitan exist in the Mists like every other dead person?
Two reasons.
First, we don’t go to any afterlife in the Mists except the Mad Realm, which is where insane people under the jurisdiction of Grenth go.
Second, we don’t even know if dragons have souls. We don’t even see any sylvari souls for that matter.
And for the record: no, Heralds do not channel Glint’s soul but an echo of her, like all other revenant legendaries. They’re as much of a soul as Turai Ossa in Stronghold maps are (and multiple Turais can exist at the same time there) – all of such are copies, called echoes.
The only dragon who’s influence we’ve felt in the Mists is Jormag, and he’s had minions entering the Mists via Sons of Svanir.
I rather doubt that five of the Elder Dragons are destroying civilizations because one Elder Dragon decided to go super greedy. Every Elder Dragon has shown signs of being equally greedy.
Zhaitan has minions that show he wants an eternal rule over his enslaved subjects.
Mordremoth showed that he saw himself to be the world, and that all belonged to him.
Kralkatorrik showed that he seeks to obtain everything and destroy that which he cannot have.
Jormag has shown to find willing converts who seek power, and to exterminate all weaklings – even if they’re his minions (Sons of Svanir actively hunt down icebrood, and icebrood tempt non-norn with promises of power).
Primordus has shown a desire, through his minions, to exterminate all animal and plant life, replacing it with constructs of earth and fire (he rarely ever corrupts living beings, and the Great Destroyer was said to prepare the way for Primordus by ‘wiping out all surface life’ (paraphrased).
Each Elder Dragon has shown a case of wanting to own everything, destroy everything, or both. Only exception is the DSD, but that’s more out of knowing nothing of him.
The only thing that Colin said would be is Season 1. Which is not the same as the Personal Story. And even that is just the stated hope for.
Which honestly there is no reason not to.
Nothing says the White Stag is an exception, thus it is not notable for being an exception. It’s desired by the Nightmare Court in the same sense that they desire any sylvari.
On the note of the other personal story plots:
Quite a lot of things show up later. The problem is that they show up in a specific two/three storylines and you’ll not always line them up without the foreknowledge (very rarely will you line them up, in fact, unless you spoil yourself or replay the game multiple times).
The Cathedral in Orr was all about the sacrifice of the dead.
-The Priestess of Lyssa is a …necromancer
- Magic tends to be like a ‘well’, concentrating into a single type of magic for reasons unknown
I’m not quite sure where you get this. Or what you entirely mean.
- The Cathedral has some weird designs on the top of it where the rings, usually standing upright, are laying flat – apparently carved into the floor deliberately.
Per some concept art and some hero challenges, the rings throughout Orr that are laying flat and deep in the ground were floating.
What if the Orrians were practicing some kind of blood magic whereby each individual god used the concentrations of the others to create a one-concentrate sort of magic that was ‘conscious’?
Uhm, no. Definitely not. I mean, some might have used blood magic – which is a common and not-evil trait of necromancy, but the only god that would be tied to blood magic – magic fueled by blood used primarily for life stealing and life transferring – would be Grenth.
The others would have no need of it.
What do I mean by this? Well, if you have each of the Orrian gods being worshiped that’s puzzling. There seems to be no reason to do this. In fact, it’s mostly just a pain to have people worshiping you. I mean, it’s human beings worshiping you. It would be frustrating to have to deal with that degree of stupidity for any length of time. So, there’s got to be more to gain from it than we’re seeing.
This argument makes no sense to me.
Perhaps the individual gods were acting as conduits to change the natures of the individual Elder Dragons through this worship?
There is no direct tie between the dragons and gods. It [pretty much got confirmed in Season 2.]()
That’s what I thought and maybe there’s something to that. However, it seems more logical in watching the ritual for the dead at the Cathedral that actually the Orrians were blending magics.
There’s nothing magical about the funerary rites for Lyssan followers.
The obvious benefit of this would be if the individual traits of the gods’ could in some way be manifest within this blending as well. Worship of Dwayna plus the worship of Balthazar equals the magic Guardians use, for instance. This would explain all the Orichalcum circuitry like meshing inside the concrete like stone all over Orr. The whole of Orr is just a magical circuit board connecting and channeling the energies of the different temples all across Orr into a single “well” of magic. This well, when functioning, could then distribute or blend the minor wells of the god-temples into a more potent, but also more complex, magic.
Mixing magical energies results in disasters like Thaumanova…
Which Orr was not.
It might be that ley-line energy is something like the Life Stream in Final Fantasy 7 or more probably the Far Plane in Final Fantasy X. The more the dragon’s consume ‘magic’ the more they are, in reality, messing with the inherent traits of everything. Simplified… If Zhaitan had been able to go on doing its thing perhaps Tyrians actually would have become stupider as it continued: just look at the Jotun.
I haven’t played any Final Fantasy game, but I can tell you that ley-line energy is just generic magical energy.
Ley lines are in every way the passageway of ambient magic. So the energy within ley-lines is just pure concentrated undefined magic.
Amount of magic is not tied to intelligence. Jotun’s stupidity is not caused from magic but years and years (centuries, really) of inbreeding and civil wars that focused on destroying the enemies’ scholars.
The Mouth of Mordremoth is Mordremoth’s physical body. However, Mordremoth is capable of transferring his mind and regrowing his body from his corruption – thus why we have to ‘get into his head’ in the story instances.
We didn’t kill Zhaitan using the laser cannon – we just cut off his tails. Technically speaking, that thing barely did much to Zhaitan because it missed. What really harmed him was the grappling hooks that came immediately after the laser cannon, which appeared to be electrifying him and resulted in an arm literally just falling off and a wing turning burnt red. Then we finished him off with the non-laser cannons.
Also, Mind wasn’t really Mordremoth’s weakness. I mean, yes, we did kill him by attacking his mind, but that was the means to kill him because his two domains rendered him nigh immortal as he could transfer his mind (mind) and regrow his body (plant) should he about to be killed. In theory, you could kill him by removing all of his corruption – but that’s a long and slow process. So the only way to kill him in a reasonable manner – especially since his corruption spreads quickly – is to destroy his mind.
Keep in mind all the things Mordremoth did with his mind. He accessed hundreds of sylvari minds telepathy, simultaneously, whispering different orders to each one individually. And, as mentioned, he transferred his mind to a being he was mentally tied to, allowing him to live past the lifespan of his body (an effective brain transplant). On top of this, he transferred the minds of those he corrupted into new bodies (again, effective brain transplant) several times over.
This does not sound like a weakness to me.
His corruption takes the form of plants, but his method of corruption was that of mental conversion.
Zhaitan does use shadow quite a lot – but just not under that name. He has a lot of attribution to darkness throughout Orr and the personal story. Even in GW2’s song names, there are attribution to darkness with fighting Zhaitan.
I have to say its kinda odd the Human Gods was hording magic items in Arah.
makes me think they may have been consuming magic in some way .
(Maybe they left because they would have messed up the balance of tyria magic levels.) And would kinda explain why they would be so mad at Abaddon for the bloodstone fiasco."
IIRC, in the arah dungeon it’s stated that they were studying the artifacts. Which to me indicates that they were trying to figure out how Tyria’s magic worked.
They haven’t. I kind of took that farm as having been destroyed by the invasion – both in terms of the ‘neatly terraced’ appearance as well as the poisons killing all the crops.
The farm is there, but there’s no crops.
Applenook is outright stated to be part of LA’s territory in the OoW storyline, and has Lionguard guards in both said story and the open world.
But it seems that Applenook and that one estate (forget its name) is the only farming fields LA has.
@Slowpokeking: Mordremoth’s plot suffered because they tried to make him unique, did not fulfill his potential for all the lead-ins they created, and rushed the main plot. They literally created a hundred bridges and used two – and not even fully at that, they began going down one bridge then they jumped over and went down another.
Mordremoth’s plot also sucked because they performed an obvious catering to the super-vocal minority of the GW2 community (“I wanna lead the Pact!” – done; “I wanna kill Trahearne!” – done; “I should have gotten saladbowl!” – done).
They can do this to any dragon and given the current writing team, where they have bad writers who know the plot and new writers who apparently don’t (if Leah Hoyer truly knew the lore then I doubt she would have written that blog post to make the Mordrem Guard sound so frightening due to uniqueness when _+EVERYTHING_+ that was presented – both in the story and in the blog – as why they’re so frightening THE RISEN HAD ALREADY DONE TENFOLD!), chances are the other dragons will suffer just as much.
IMO, the only way they can salvage the game’s story and lore at this point is by finding someone who knows the lore and knows how to write from the GW2 community.
no because it’s been proven that dragons are linked in pairs (Zhaitan Mordy, Primordus, Jormag, Bubs, Kralk), if Kralk is one of the next two then bubs has to be next, and he’s probably last…
This is still pure speculation. Zhaitan and Mordremoth were on opposite ends of The All, but nothing makes them “in pairs”.
Further, there’s no way to know that, should such pairing exist, that the opposites would be “the tops, the mids, the bottoms” or "complete opposite (e.g., middle to middle, top left to bottom right, and top right to bottom left).
Because they wanted to only deliver it as challenging content. Story mode for the raids would just be treated the same as story mode for the dungeons – a precursor to the ‘explorable mode’ that is always ignored by everyone.
- The six gods needs and are being sustained by magic (read: worship), but also see fit to safeguard the use of it.
- Need I say more? The elder dragons feeds off of magic, to become stronger and to sustain themselves. What if the dragons were supposed to safeguard magic, much like how the gods tried to?
Actually, we don’t know if the gods need anything to sustain themselves. While we have been informed that Dhuum grows stronger with deaths in the Underworld (unclear if this is just due to his location and he merely grows strong from nearby deaths or if it’s literally deaths in the Underworld or even if it’s deaths of his followers), he does not seem to require deaths to sustain himself – and deaths is not source of magic (unless he grows stronger from feasting on their souls after they die which would, indeed, be a source of magic).
However, this aspect is thus far unique to Dhuum. Balthazar, for example, is never credited with growing stronger with more war/conflict – let alone requiring to survive. In fact, if this was the case then Balthazar/Grenth/Dhuum and Dwayna/Melandru simply could not co-exist, for they are opposites – conflict and death versus life and prosperity.
Anyway, let’s get back on track to the question at hand; who is the strongest of the two groups?
The dragons have been said to ‘rival the gods’ which places them on par.
Well, it’s actually quite logical. I’m pretty sure the elder dragons that we face, today, are weak compared to them at their strongest. Like Abbadon, when we fought him he had been trapped in his own realm and starved of magic for decades. Imagine if he’d been starved for nigh 10 000 years instead. He’d likely be significantly weaker.
Abaddon had been imprisoned for 1,000 years, not “decades”. There’s a significant difference there. And nothing really denotes him as being starved.
In fact, Abaddon gains power throughout the campaign of Nightfall due to Varesh’s rituals. At least according to unused lines in the gw.dat. So he is indeed not ‘starved’ – if he could be. Abaddon’s weakness is, in fact, attributed to the prison itself – the gates within the Realm of Torment as well as his chains – and Varesh’s rituals opens said prisons (opens the gates) which allows him to use his power. Basically, the reason for Abaddon’s weakness and rise of power is that the gods had locked it away, separate from him, and the rituals that Varesh performed had somehow unlocked them – but not all of them, only three (for that’s how many rituals she performed). And there were eight gates (Torment, Anguish, Secrets, Fear, Madness, Pain, Nightfall Lands, and Abaddon’s Gate)
In other words, we fought Abaddon at 3/8th of his whole power.
This not only suggests that there are more worlds out there, but also that perhaps the gods and the elder dragons once had the same purpose, as guardians of sorts to their respective worlds. It is of course, pure speculation, but an interesting concept nonetheless. This further supports the theory that the elder dragons once were benevolent, but like Abbadon fell to the corruption of magic.
This is, more or less, my opinion on the matter.
I, however, do not believe that the Elder Dragons were once benevolent. The reason why I argue this is that there are hints and implications that, once upon a time, there was an entire group of races that were magic-consuming dragons, and only a handful might exist (in Cantha – Dragon Moss, Saltspray Dragons, and Turtle Dragons all potentials, with Saltspray Dragons highly likely). The Elder Dragons may-or-may-not derive from some of these races.
Furthermore, in HoT we saw that as one elder dragon died, his power could be absorbed by another dragon, but only by a dragon as it skipped everyone in between. What if, in similarity, a gods power could only be absorbed by a human? What does this imply?
That humans are as attuned to their homeworld’s magic as dragons are to Tyria’s magic. Or that anyone could consume magic, in theory, but requires the know-how or alteration to biological makeup to do so.
Dragons are not the only magic consuming race out there. Imps consume magic too – but only elemental magic. Scarabs are known to consume magic – or at least souls. And torment demons, titans, and post-demonification Margonites have as well – again, souls.
I don’t think the Elder Dragons are corrupted from their original purpose. Consuming magic IS their original purpose, they keep magic in check. In fact it is implied that without EDs to draw magic into themselves, an excess of magic could mean the end of Tyria.
In other words they keep the balance. From the POV of mortal races they’re “evil” because a side effect of what they do is an extinction-level event, but stopping the EDs from doing their jobs could very well be an end-of-the-world-level event.
Presumably part of Glint’s plan is to replace the current EDs with a new system that maintains the balance of magic without killing off the mortal races.
The Elder Dragons are evil. You do not remain benevolent or good while actively trying to enslave and/or kill the world’s population and devastate their civilization.
The Elder Dragons are intelligent, and this means they can be selective in not just what they consume magic from, but how. There is no need for them to corrupt and destroy. Yet they do – they chose to do so.
This makes them evil.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Asura in general are constantly attributed to scientific breakthroughs beyond the ken of the natural order of things because it’s a core foundation of their fictional archetype. Omadd’s machine, CoE, the fractal observatory, these are unlikely miracles of magitech that serve as plot fulcrums specifically because of the miraculous and unlikely nature of their success or existance.
I disagree. They do not push beyond the ken of the natural order but instead push the understanding of what is possible within the natural order.
The Inquest aren’t midget versions of Victor Frankenstein – well, most aren’t – who seek to defy natural order (and those that are always fail), but instead are closer to the Illusive Man (Kudu especially) whom are more about finding an understanding about what we currently do not know regardless of the cost. Like any scientist – with or without morals.
They not once break the natural order of things. The closest one can argue, you’ve mentioned: Omadd’s machine. However, even this is just a device to show someone the natural order of the world – which in of itself is not breaking it.
I don’t think it’s at all silly to assume that yes, the inquest discovered a way to do something that the elder dragons can’t simply based upon the fact that the elder dragons seem to have no desire to do so, have never demonstrably done so, and have never once in all of recorded history been shown to have that ability. Creating virtually impossible miracles the strain the limitations of possibility are regular occurances for asura, and doing so with a malicious bent is the sole narrative mandate for the inquest as the ’evil asura faction"
On the bold:
Our ‘all of recorded history’ in regards to the Elder Dragons is very, very little, and when we talk about Elder Dragons’ interaction with each other it is non-existent. We have no foundation for the claim that Elder Dragons cannot corrupt another’s minion because we have no situation where minions of two different Elder Dragons interact with each other.
You are basically saying “the sun and moon cannot touch because the sun and moon have never done so” – this is a pure archaic line of thought.
While it is true that lack of evidence does not necessarily prove a point, what we do know is that
- Sylvari are minions of mordremoth.
- Sylvari are notable in the zhaitan arc as the only being that can not be corrupted by Zhaitan
- Not once in recorded history (unless your encycolpekittennowledge can find some, which would be awesome) is there an instance of any being suffering from corruption by two dragons at once, and in fact the elder dragons seem rather content to stay out of one another’s way. However, there were multiple occasions where it would have behooved Zhaitan to corrupt sylvari, and this never happenned. Not to pale tree sylvari or any other sylvari anywhere as far as we are aware. Biologically, innately, sylvari are immune to corruption. Regardless of whther they originate from the pale tree or not, unless that corruption stems directly from mordremoth.
All we are proven is that the Pale Tree’s sylvari cannot be corrupted. This is undeniable. But to argue that this immunity comes from the fact they are minions of Mordremoth and not from the fact that they are obviously purified minions and protected by something not all mordrem or even sylvari are tied to is rather foolish.
In fact, I would like to present our very first line about sylvari immunity, which shows the full scope of it that the personal story does not:
“While the other races may be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, turned into undead minions or crystalline creatures of the Brand, the sylvari are never turned. Those born of the Pale Tree simply die before the corruption takes hold. Many sylvari believe that this is because they were born to battle the dragons, blessed with a certain protection against their most horrible powers. Some non-sylvari scholars state instead that the sylvari’s strange biology foils the corruption of the dragons. A few clever souls state that sylvari just taste bad to dragons. No one knows for certain which is the truth.”
https://web.archive.org/web/20120111070324/http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/
Take note of the bolded’s wording. Those born of the Pale Tree. This means sylvari not born of the Pale Tree lack this immunity. Malyck is not born of the Pale Tree. What does he lack compared to the Pale Tree’s sylvari? The Dream of Dreams.
Mind you, this was written back in 2010 or so and was removed before release, replaced with a “simplified version,”: and thus knowledge of another tree’s existence was not known. However! Knowledge of other seeds like the one that sprouted the Pale Tree was known thus other sylvari trees out there was a fullblown probability.
It is interesting to note the form in which this immunity takes place: death.
Which means that not only did the Inquest manage to get the two energies to not conflict – if such is a case – but that they managed to keep the subject alive through and after the process. By your argument.
On the subject of the dream and malyck, Malyck does not feel a connection to a dream. however, as a sylvari, he has the capacity for a dream. We know that the pale tree was capable of resisting mordremoth. We also know that malyck came from a tee somewhere.
In theory, given the fact that any of the main races enter the Dream – twice – and that we see a non-sylvari/mordrem tied to the Dream (White Stag), any race has the capacity for a Dream.
But the fact is that he lacks this connection.
Where is he circa HoT though? I can’t find him anywhere. Any other tree without the benefit of Ventari’s teaching would likely blindly follow mordremoth. It wouldn’t costruct a detailed mindscape specifically to instill a subconscious desire for righteousness. It would just birth sylvari so that they’re around when mordremoth wakes up. Sylvari are all born with this capacity as a function of their true purpose, including malyck. It doesn’t mean they are encouraged or taught to use it however.
Not necessarily so.
Dragon minions can’t simply ‘decide not to follow their dragon’. This goes against all fundamental values of the Elder Dragons creating slaves. They have no free will. They must be broken of it, like the Forgotten ritual that was used on Glint, or the extreme oddity of magical items fed to Mawdrey (I’m of the opinion that it was the Foefire essence – given that its magic was immune to Kralkatorrik’s corruption and burns risen more fiercely than anything else, a similar effect that divine fire had on the mordrem/Shadow of the Dragon).
Which means that the Pale Tree was at one point cleansed of dragon corruption – something I was hoping Anet would delve into. Given that the Pale Tree’s seed came out of a cave of them and ‘plant monsters’ which apparently didn’t attack Ronan, it’s likely that there was a whole cave full of purified seeds – after all, the words of a centaur cannot purify ancient magic any more than the words of a norn, human, charr, or asura can (which we know they can’t).
Which means that each tree that could have been planted would have been with free will. Since Mordremoth ‘corrupted’ the sylvari of the Pact via the Dream, these trees and their sylvari would in turn need to be connected to the Dream. Until directly influenced by corruption, that is (though purification itself does seem to apply a deal of protection – why else would Kralkatorrik not re-corrupt Glint unless he couldn’t? But whether or not it affects those created by purified dragon minions is the question – and it’s unknown if the Pale Tree and the other seeds were purified directly, or if one of those ‘plant monsters’ was the one purified directly and it created the seeds thus leaving the seeds as vulnerable as sylvari).
In short: there is a LOT of factors that affect sylvari but not any other dragon minion. To claim that just because sylvari cannot be corrutped by other dragons means that any dragon minion cannot be corrupted by other dragons is downright foolish. There are far too many unknowns and variables still yet unanswered. All we can say is this: for some reason Kralkatorrik didn’t corrupt Glint, and for some reason Mordremoth didn’t corrupt the Pale Tree, and for some reason the sylvari are immune to dragon corruption from Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, and seemingly even Mordremoth and the only way Mordremoth got to them was by playing mindkitten games and convincing them to serve him willingly or by cloning their corpses.
As for the white stag, that’s a complex issue that may have more in common with collective subconscious or simply another magical, psychic being with the ability to jack in to that telepathic network like neo jacks in to the matrix. It’s a terribly mysterious creature for sure.
And it’s a creature that otherwise completely destroys your theory.
Thanks for clearing that up. Still not clear on what the humans could have contributed with the technology they usually display, seeing as that is far inferior to either Charr or Asura. The Idea with the ballons maybe, seeing as they are the onlyones to use those (Queen’s Jubilee / Attack on Lion’s Arch)?
Despite the show that GW2 has given us, in GW1 humanity has created cannons both magical and mundane – and long before the charr did. They’ve had large levitating platforms before the asura did. And they had created automatons before the asura surfaced. Let alone the achievements of individuals which created an entire race, opened rifts to another dimension, outwitted gods singlehandedly, and so forth.
They’ve been greatly downplayed for GW2, which is a darn shame and one of the many things that I feel GW2 is doing wrong.
There’s… nothing toxic about my post – not to you, certainly.
What part of my post was hostile? And honestly, you telling me you’re giving me a warning is… insulting.
Do note that pressing reply only replies to the thread and not to a specific post. This isn’t like reddit.
What are you claiming to be “speculation”? Since you post right after mine – which definitely isn’t but the very foundation of Exalted lore – it seems like mine is the one you refer to.
The egg is definitely more than to help sylvari. A Study in Gold indicates that Glint’s legacy end-goal “will seed the new dawn of civilization.”
Again, where is it stated that the player is a member of DE. This is never stated by any source or NPC in the game.
It is. I recall reading it during S2. Someone called the PC a member of Destiny’s Edge, the PC denies it due to not acting with them for a while, the NPC reaffirms it stating it’s true whether the PC sees themselves as a member or not.
I thought that was the Pale Tree but the dialogue from Rallying Call is not what I recall, and I see nothing else on the wiki. I am not going to replay the entire season looking for this singular line.
Further, The dream, or rather the sylvari capacity for that state, is of mordremoth originally. The nature of the pale tree, and the sylvari is that of mordremoth. The fact that the dream even exists is due to the sylvari being creations of mordremoth, and thus being designed with a limited hive mind
False!
This shows that the Dream is independent of Mordremoth!
We know of three powerfully magical beings – all located in the Maguuma – tied to the Dream: the Pale Tree, Mordremoth, and the White Stag. Through the Pale Tree, her children are tied to the Dream but it is a tenuous tie. We have no indication of other mordrem being tied to the Dream, and we know that not all sylvari are tied to the dream (again: Malyck).
If what you are asserting is true, then the soundless would have been vulnerable to corruption by zhaitan. We know for a fact they are not, despite having no connection to the specific isolated hive-mind of the pale tree’s dream.
No, we do not know for a fact they are not for the Soundless in their small numbers and small community never interact with dragon corruption of any kind!
We never once see a confirmed Soundless interact with anything except mordrem.
Furthermore, all Soundless are still connected to the Dream. They’ve merely muted that connection.
All sylvari are naturally part of one “dream” or another.
Malyck disagrees. Repeatedly.
sylvari are naturally psychically connected with one another, just like most dragon minions are naturally psychically connected to the dragons they serve.
No, it’s utterly and totally different.
First of all, the Dream is not a hive mind – which is what dragon minions typically have. Ghosts of Ascalon page 120.
Second of all, all other dragon minions have a telepathic link which is two-ways. They give and receive by all indication (even if that reception is just orders). And without it, they are mindless. Sylvari are neither mindless nor are they receiving – except when Mordremoth hijacks the Dream’s connection to them, and except for before their birth.
This is just one of many things that sylvari are utterly and totally different from all other dragon minions – including other mordrem – which makes their ‘reveal’ to be utterly ridiculous (the fact that the reveal was never necessary for the plot of HoT is even more insulting to the consistency of the game’s lore).
There is no firm logical basis to assume that, given the copious amounts of evidence we have, Elder dragons are able to take ownership of anything claimed by another dragon. The only place we see it happen is in CoE, where years of research and specialized equipment to harness dragon energies without the consent of those dragons was used to do so.
No logical basis?
So it is completely logical for the Inquest to be better at what the Elder Dragons do by their very nature of being Elder Dragons?
I disagree. We are talking about eldritch abominations supposedly being mortal comprehension that have existed for tens – if not hundreds – of thousands of years. You truly think that some 40 year old asura would know the functions of dragon corruption more than a 30,000+ year old, intelligent, Elder Dragon?
That is your “firm logical basis” of assumption? The lack of evidence is not the evidence of lacking. You have to think beyond the mere lack of evidence! Think for the reason why there’s a lack of evidence!
Because, quite frankly, you need to keep in mind that, as we see with Subject Alpha, a dragon champion corrupted by multiple dragon minions is capable of controlling minions of every dragon it has been corrupted by. This is very reasonable means for an Elder Dragon to not corrupt another Elder Dragon’s minion.
Example:
Elder Dragon 1 corrupts Being A. Being A becomes a dragon champion.
Elder Dragon 2 corrupts Being A. Being A becomes a dragon champion for that dragon too.
Being A is capable of controlling minions from both Elder Dragon 1 and Elder Dragon 2. This allows Elder Dragon 2 to control Elder Dragon 1’s minions. However, this also means that Elder Dragon 1 can control Elder Dragon 2’s minion. Under the assumption that either Elder Dragon (1 or 2) can control Being A.
If I were an Elder Dragon, that is not something I would risk. I would rather destroy Being A than corrupt it if it has already been corrupted, for I would not want to lose my own army of slaves – be it to another Elder Dragon, or to an uncontrollable being.
Heck, it may even be possible that each of the six Elder Dragons were, in fact, originally beings corrupted by two previous-gen Elder Dragons that were twice as numerous, thus showing why each modern Elder Dragon has two spheres of influence. We after all are told that Glint could have become an Elder Dragon – so it is thus entirely possible that our dear six Elder Dragons are successors of older Elder Dragons. Mind you, this possibility – while viable – is a longshot indeed.
But it is less of a longshot, in my honest opinion, than claiming that the Inquest have figured out how to do the Elder Dragons’ job better than the Elder Dragons. Which is what you and everyone else claiming the same unsupported speculation that “dragon corruption prevents dragon corruption” argues.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Why Joko… He isn’t a risen. He’s fully unrelated to Zhaitan except as an enemy.
Plus Joko probably has one of the best villain personalities, don’t wanna override that with Big Z.
And the explorable dungeon was meant to have Zhaitan’s body. No fight. You’re thinking, I bet, of WoodenPotatoes’ wild and unsupported theory of a data mined map that mirrors the Fissure of Woe and has the original head of Zhaitan model as part of its landscape.
I must have missed something. The inquest’s multi-corruption was a fabrication, and the point of the facility. Such corruption does not happen naturally, it requires specialized equipment. Unless, you’re asserting that the crucible of eternity isn’t built specifically to facilitate unnatural uses of dragon energy, and it’s just a big building.
It is built specifically to study dragon energy and to create a custom dragon champion the Inquest (specifically Kudu) can control.
However, the notion that multi-dragon corruption is fabrication, capable only with specialized equipment, and cannot happen naturally is 100% player speculation. The only equipment we see is that of delivering dragon corruption into subjects.
So is the claim that sylvari are immune due to being dragon minions.
And to claim that the Inquest are capable of creating a multi-corrupted dragon champion but the Elder Dragons cannot is the same as claiming that the Inquest are better at corrupting than the Elder Dragons, who’s very essence is that of dragon corruption.
I’d also appreciate if you could point out where it is confirmed or indicated that the dream effectively isolated the pale reavers from being corrupted by Zhaitan. The source of the Sylvari’s immunity, unless I’ve missed something extremely important, is that they are “property” of Mordremoth.
Not just Zhaitan, but dragon corruption in general.
It is, in fact, stated that the Dream is protection against Mordremoth as well.
Avatar of the Tree: There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.
PC: You’re talking about dragon corruption. We’ve been immune to it.
Avatar of the Tree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth’s corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth’s corruption can change you.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call
The Elder Dragon can implant thoughts in its creations—thoughts they may even believe to be their own—and only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control. Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/
“Pale Tree’s protection” can only be The Dream (and, indirectly, Nightmare), as evident by the fact that people can leave her protection (becoming Soundless).
Mordremoth is capable of bypassing this protection, but the other Elder Dragons are not. In the final story instance of HoT, just as in the blog post, it’s revealed that Mordremoth has a connection to the Dream as well, and that is how he’s getting at the sylvari. But as we see during Buried Insight’s side achievement to talk to the mordrem guard there, even the mordrem guard are not truly corrupted – for they are still tied to the Dream, the protection. They just gave into Mordremoth’s whispers which happen through the Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts, showing to us that even Mordremoth cannot corrupt sylvari.
The dream is a fabrication to protect their developing psyches from Mordremoth specifically.
The Dream is the sole way Mordremoth gets into sylvari psyches.
How can it be protection against Mordremoth, when it is the single reason he can attack them mentally?
Again, the PC never joins destiny’s edge. The biconics join YOUR guild, of which you are the leader, and which is never explicitly named. You do in fact run WITH DE, but are not and never were a part of it. You are in fact in charge of the biconics. You lead them. they formed a guild around you and made certain not to name it. For plot purposes you’re a guild leader of at least a group of NPCs, as well as commander of the pact.
It’s stated elsewhere too that you are a member of Destiny’s Edge. The members of Destiny’s Edge treats you as one of their own as well.
The PC is a member of Destiny’s Edge. The PC is the one who brought them together again. The Pact Commander is Snaff’s replacement. The PC fulfills the role that Snaff played – the glue to keep the guild together, adviser to the guild’s actions, and effectively the strongest member.
Was it unknown that you had to destroy the soul vessel of a lich to actually kill her during the events of GW1?
We never destroyed a “soul vessel” to kill Khilbron.
Nor Zoldark. Nor Mazdak. Nor the generically named risen liches. Nor the generically named GW1’s dragon liches.
GW liches do not work on that concept.
I am absolutely NOT stating that she wants to do turn anything in to a crystalline world full of crystalline people, nor did I ever do so.
What I’m calling “benevolent corruption” or “innoculation” you are calling “sharing energy”
It is a purely semantic argument. The ideal is simple. Beings and area “touched” by one elder dragon can not be “corrupted” by another. “Corruption” is only so because the elder dragons are of malicious intent and actively seek to enslave other beings and have no concern for their individuality
Nothing states that Elder Dragons cannot corrupt another Elder Dragon. The sylvari immunity has already been tied to the Dream. And we see, via the Inquest, that multi-corruption is possible.
So by ‘corrupting’ the world, whether it’s turning things into crystalline things or just temporarily giving a person a boost (which is not the same as corruption at all), would do nothing to prevent the other Elder Dragons from corrupting them.
Subject Alpha should make this crystal clear – no pun intended.
As for your argument that “you can dye stuff” I’ m not talking about your personal customizations. I’m talking about the default appearance of the gear.
Which I’m arguing holds no strong tie to its actual appearance.
It is painfully clear that these crystals are linked to glint’s legacy. let’s say they had nothing to do with the eggs. What then is their purpose, where did they come from, and most importantly why are they growing?
I never argued they didn’t, since the Forgotten are obviously the most likely originator of them as they are the only (known) linking factor between the two guild halls.
As to their purpose – that’s the question to be figured out, but we have absolutely zero indication as to what their purpose is. So unfortunately that means we can just say “their purpose is to attract the dragon minions away from Tarir” or something.
My extremely simplified version of this theory, stripped of all sematic arguments, is that the crystals are growing specifically because glint’s egg is maturing at an accelerated rate, and that their purpose is to assist the occupant of that egg in “sharing energy” as you like to call it, with the world to protect it from elder dragon corruption.
Their growth is tied to the guild’s progression, however. The egg’s maturation is tied to the main plot. Which means that we can get to the point where the egg hatches and the guild hall crystals are unchanged – or the guild halls are maxed and the egg isn’t even in Tarir.
Forget the egg angle or the vaguaries of why or why the crystal’s activators are if it makes you happy, it’s immaterial to the central theory here. However you’d be a fool to suggest anything other than that those crystals are tied directly to glint’s plan, whatever it is.
And I never argued otherwise. What I’ve been arguing against is that these places were meant to incubate other eggs.
Unless of course you’re asserting that doing so is actually beyond the ability of a dragon.
For a mere dragon champion to be capable of sharing energy with the entire world that would prevent dragon corruption?
Yes, I would say that’s impossible.
Because not even full-blown corruption prevents corruption of other Elder Dragons – as the Inquest has proven, whether or not the Elder Dragons are willing to do that is another question entirely but it is possible. And as we saw during Prized Possessions, even ‘energy sharing’ didn’t prevent Faolain from corrupting and killing the player character. We had to run away from her. It effectively made the PC weaker to dragon corruption given how ‘easy’ it was to kill her later on.
Sharing magic tied to the attributes of the Elder Dragons is known to be possible. This is the very foundation of Zephyrite crystals – it’s using magic from Glint’s corpse. It’s the same thing the egg does to the PC. But this – as I stated – does not prevent corruption, does not make you stronger against dragon minions.
What we do know is that the only thing that can absolutely prevent elder dragon corruption is another elder dragon. Anything else is up to some combination of science, free will, and plot convenience.
FALSE.
Forgotten magic is immune – fully immune – to dragon corruption. Dragon corruption does not prevent dragon corruption.
Also, destiny’s edge is never your guild according to the story. DE is their own guild, whom you happen to meet. DE isn’t out claiming halls because they’re either dead, captured, or have more important things to do by that point in the time line.
False again.
Avatar of the Tree: Yes, Caithe has spoken to me about your involvement in Zhaitan’s demise. You still run with Destiny’s Edge?
To non-sylvari: Caithe has spoken your name to me in her tales of Zhaitan’s demise. You run with Destiny’s Edge.
And at the end of Hearts and Mind, you can talk to the group again, and Braham and Marjory both mention “our guild” – as if including Caithe and Rytlock too.
The biconics and the PC have joined Destiny’s Edge in the main story.
Sorry about that, guessed because so far every other dragon has been a place on the map in a sense. I keep forgetting that there’s an “underworld” to Tyria.
There really hasn’t except for Zhaitan. You have the effects of their rising (Jormag’s shattered Shiverpeaks, Kralkatorrik’s dragonbrand), but their actual location is unknown – Jormag awoke north of the map and came south but we don’t know if it remained south or went back north; Kralkatorrik flew away from the southern end of the Dragonbrand and we don’t know where he ended up.
Only Zhaitan had his personal location on the world map, due to the center of his territory being Orr. We don’t even see all of his territory (which reaches to northern Elona).
This idea seems to be making the rounds right now, but I don’t really get it. I just re-read the fight scene in EoD, and neither the guild nor Glint ever do more than superficial damage.
Yeah, I agree. The reason we’d go after Kralkatorrik isn’t due to injury but because he has only been awake for 8 years and hasn’t – to our knowledge – had a massive boost of power like Mordremoth did.
Actually, in this regard, it’s the second hardest dragon to pin down. Where destroyers or icebrood migrate into Tyria, showing where those dragons are pressing their borders against ours, the branded are migrating out of Tyria, with the only hint of where Kralkatorrik’s territory might be being ‘south’, and that’s if the minions are reliably able to tell the dragon’s location.
Southeast, actually. They’re going south primarily, but do not remain within the Dragonbrand once they hit Fields of Ruin but start heading southeast.
That said, it would be awesome if fighting Kralkatorrik takes us into Dzalana. I think that’s the only part of Elona I ever truly wanted.
Corruption != monstrosities.
We’ve seen on several occasions completely or mostly unaltered early stage minions of several elder dragons.
Corruption, by its very definition in this situation, is the act of physically changing the body and enslaving the mind.
We ourselves experience it when we bond with the egg during HoT.
That’s not corruption, that’s sharing energy.
Magic coming from dragons by nature is not corruptive. If that was so, then all magic in the world would be corrupted, because all magic in the world had been consumed and exuded by the dragons in their many cycles of awakening and hibernation.
We’ve seen norn who give themselves to jormag do not immediately become hulking monstrosities.
Jormag – and Primordus when he corrupts living beings – has the physical changes being transitional. But all icebrood eventually become akin to Icebrood Goliaths and Icebrood Colossi.
Branded – the corruption of crystal dragons – is entirely instantaneous. You will never see a non-crystalline branded. Just like risen are instantaneous in appearance.
Even icebrood, every one of them has heads and hands turned into ice very quickly.
It seems only logical that if the aim was not to create grotesque weapons of war, but a simple “inoculation” against outside corruption this would be well within the sphere of ability of any elder dragon.
The only times we see such happen is when corruption radiates from artifacts (like for Kellach, the Sanguinary Blade, Howl, etc.). But such are never done directly by an Elder Dragon. Or a dragon champion.
The egg is important to this plan specifically because Glint isn’t around to facilitate that role. The crystals were important as there was no guarantee any one egg would survive, thus spreading and hiding them throughout the world in such out of the way places.
The lore we have indicates that the egg is important because Glint knew she would die. Her entire legacy is built around one singular fact: Glint dies.
So if the crystals are important to the legacy, they would be important regardless, because the egg is also important regardless.
if it was in fact the forgotten, then I ask the same question you asked my about them. Why don’t they look like other forgotten structures? More importantly, why are they filled with human statues and imagery not directly related to the gods?
You are the one continuously stating that Lost Precipice was built by Forgotten – or by aid of the Forgotten.
I have no reason to answer this question, because I do not believe them tied to Forgotten. I never did. They were visited by the Forgotten – that’s outright stated – but nothing says or implies Lost Precipice was made by the Forgotten.
We didnt see similar structures during GW1 in the region, but at that time most humans were relatively new to the region, and largely consisted of soldiers and merchant caravans.
With exception of the druids. They’re the one and only group that held a strong presence in the Maguuma Jungle. Outside the users of Fort Koga, that is.
These crystals and their pink/white sheen are absolutely related to glint. they share the same appearance as the crystal bits we find on “arbiter” armor, her egg, and the crystal bits of the herald’s gear. nowhere in GW2 can I recall seeing remarkably blue crystals unless you could the obviously blue zephyrite ones (which come in multiple hues for readability)
Uhm…
As to the blue crystals, I refer to Glint’s Lair, which is nothing but blue crystals of various hues, or transparent blue. I also refer to The Dragon’s Lair in GW1, which is blue with a very sepai tone over the area. Even Glint’s body is blue (but looks gray in GW1 due to the tone over the area).
There is only one egg bearer. However, any character who can interact with that crystal is likely treated by the plot as both pact commander and egg bearer. Just like the game treats YOU like the commander for the purposes of open world storytelling and everyone who isn’t you as other pact personnell. This viewpoint extends to guild halls. YOU are the important character when the plot and gameplay systems demand it. In this case the person activating the crystal. Just as there can’t be seven thousand pact commanders, there logically can’t be seven thousand people activating the crystal. It’s a slight plot hole for gameplay purposes necessary to tell a story in an MMO.
But then who are the other people in the guild? Why are you in a guild that isn’t Destiny’s Edge?
In the story, Destiny’s Edge is your guild. So why do none of them show up for claiming their guild hall, if interacting with the crystal is done by the Pact Commander/Eggbearer?
That’s more than just a ‘slight plot hole’ unless the plot is taking it to be ‘random adventurer who’s in a guild’ rather than ‘The Pact Commander’.
Indeed glint’s plan extends beyond the egg. The theory I posit is one explanation for that plan. Benign “corruption” which requires glint, or one of her offspring to function as a central controlling factor in the same manner that the other EDs must exist and be alive to effectively corrupt new minions.
But why?
You are suggesting that Glint’s legacy is to turn the world into a shiny bright crystalline world full of shiny bright crystalline people.
Why would she corrupt the world?
We already know Primordus is probably at the Ring of Fire or IS the Ring of Fire, it only makes sense due to the fact that it’s the only major fire related region on the giant map.
Uh…
You couldn’t be more wrong. The Ring of Fire is an island chain that’s been around – in that place – for over a thousand years (at least since 1 BE).
Primordus has been sleeping beneath what is now the border between Frostgorge Sound and Fireheart Rise, just outside the Central Transfer Chamber, deep underground. He has sense been moving, but remained deep underground (deeper than we got at any point in GW1).
There is ABSOLUTELY no relation between the Ring of Fire and Primordus. In fact, prior to his fall, Zhaitan had control over the Ring of Fire islands via his risen fleet.
Primordus and his territory isn’t anywhere in the map, because it’s beneath the map.
That’s incorrect. The line is:
Gatekeeper: You double-checked my coordinates this time. And I verified the repairs you made to the quantum tunneling coils.
Tekki: Well, then let’s observe which one of us is the bookah. Firing the trigger switches…now!
Tekki: Oh, cogs and gears! What in the Eternal Alchemy is going on here?
Which could easily mean “let’s see which one of us is the stupid human here”.
Given that sap moves slowly and isn’t pumped in plants, I’d argue: no.
I don’t think there’s a story behind it at all.
I mean, wouldn’t it be weird for all necromancers to create the same 6 kinds of minions? In lore, I doubt that’s the case – in fact, we know it isn’t because Ghosts of Ascalon has Killeen create a minion out of a fresh corpse as well as a pile of bones and being very much like its original shape..
I am not making the assertion that these places were created to guard the eggs. They were converted from existing settlements, by the forgotten and their natural inhabitants, and in most cases were only marginally changed simply to suit the placement of the crystal itself.
I also made no assertion that these locations house ley line energy, or are designed as hatcheries. Tarir is designed for that purpose, as an incubator.
You indirectly did by claiming they all housed (thus would need to guard and feed) the eggs.
If the eggs were under assault by the Elder Dragons before the Forgotten went to these places (supposedly – we’re not sure on the exact timeline but it seems to all be post-Prophecies/Eye of the North), then it makes no sense to leave the eggs defenseless and if the plan required the eggs to hatch, it makes no sense to have their final location to be without food for the egg/hatchling.
They aren’t all indicative of forgotten architecture because they are not all forgotten settlements In fact, however many of these places may exist in the world, each may have been originally constructed and inhabited by any number of different cultures or even races.
Then who created the ruins of Lost Precipice? Who is this mystical group with absolutely zero implication of being tied to the Forgotten or Glint’s legacy in the lore?
The crystals themselves may have housed the eggs given their general size and shape, and their power did not derive from ley line energy, but rather from Glint Herself
Glint’s death was the catalyst that caused them to fail, and, being reliant upon these devices, their defenders may have quickly found themselves unable to prevent becoming overrun, despite their convictions or other martial preparations. The two such places we know of are both well within mordremoth’s realm and overrun by mordrem. Sensible, as even without the energy they derived from glint, it is conceivable that these crystals were still of a magical nature, and thus of interest to various elder dragons and other parties interested in such things.
This would be foolish because:
If these locations were established to be powered by Glint herself, not only would that drain her for when she came to her inevitable battle with Kralkatorrik, but they would have to be designed to fail.
And if the plan Glint had set up was for the eggs to counter the Elder Dragons, she would not establish a defense intended to fail.
More likely, instead, if these crystals did siphon from Glint as you now propose, their purpose would be to function like Bloodstones – housing magic to feed the egg taken to Tarir. However, I do not believe that Glint did this because we know that there was a lot of magic in Glint’s corpse, “as that is where Zephyrite magic comes from”: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Short_Story:_The_Trek_of_the_Zephyrites and they have a lot of it.
So while the idea being for them to be ‘intended snacks for the hatched egg’ might be sound, and would explain why the mordrem were attracted to them (they tried to consume their magic), I would argue that the magic placed in them then would be one-time, and they were intended for Tarir’s egg not for their own.
Tarir, looking at your revised timeline, is either the centerpiece of this plan, or its last resort. In either case, Tarir, and the exalted for that matter, are significantly different in purpose. Tarir was designed for the expressed purpose of incubating a dragon, not simply protecting a dragon egg.
Any location housing an egg long term would no doubt be doing both.
There is likely a reason why the Zephyrites were constantly on the move, guided from place to place by their Aspect Masters – the only ones who knew their true purpose.
The basic premise here is that The crystals existed to help house and protect eggs until they could be incubated either naturally or artificially in Tarir and _spread wide enough about the world that they could be later used as focal points for these crystal dragons to corrupt, and thereby safeguard the surrounding land and people from the other elder dragons for the rest of time
I don’t get you.
How does turning the world into crystalline monstrosities – even if kind monstrosities – save the land and people? That is what dragon corruption does – even good dragon corruption seen used by Glint and the Pale Tree.
Furthermore, as to the timeline, we just don’t know where the expeditions sit. You can’t quite ascribe narrative flow to map connections simply because maps are fixed in time, but often connected in bizzarre ways. Vale is connected to Verdant Brink, despite being clearly places after Dragon’s stand in the time line.
In HoT, each map is based after the previous map. Tangled Depths is based after Verdant Brink, as we see an NPC from Verdant Brink show up in Tangled Depths. We know that Dragon’s Stand is based after the other three maps, for they have NPCs from all three (and then some) – even if the number of NPCs is only equal to the number of islands in the final fight, give or take.
We also know that certain story steps happen before and after certain map events. We know that City of Hope and Prized Possessions takes place before the Tarir defense – as the egg is used to activated the outposts thus allowing the Sages to activate the pylons.
We also know that The Jungle Provides takes place before the Itzel meta chain, and we know Torn from the Sky takes place before the Pale Reaver and Pact Encampment meta chain, as well as indication that the meta chains for Pact Ordnance group and Noble Ledges are before Prisoners of the Dragon.
Indicated order of open/instanced storyline of HoT is:
Torn from the Sky → Pale Reaver meta → Pact Encampment meta → The Jungle Provides → Jaka Itzel meta → Noble Ledges meta → Pact Ordnance group → Prisoners of the Dragon → Prized Possessions → Pylons events → City of Hope → Tarir defense meta → Roots of Terror → Buried Insight → Tangled Depths meta → Bitter Harvest/Blighting Towers meta → Hearts of Minds/Mouth of Mordremoth meta
The question is where the guild hall claiming fits in. If we base on this, I would argue Lost Precipice happens between Pact Ordnance group and Prisoners of the Dragon, while Gilded Hollows happens between City of Hope and Tarir defense meta.
Or it might not happen at all to the Pact Commander and is done by ‘adventurer guilds’.
As for the guilds angle. Simply put, I can’t really believe Anet would write a narrative system that assumed only certain players were ‘special’ enough to activate/bond with these crystals. The guilds angle assumes that a single person, generally one in a leadership role, is fit to activate/bond with the crystal. However, that person is not uniquely special among his peers (guildmates) aside from the fact they have chosen to follow him.
If memory serves me, you just have to be the highest ranking member of the guild in the claiming instance. Which means if the leader isn’t there but five equally ranked officers are, any one of them could work with the crystal.
Either anyone assumed to have made way through the appropriate story steps has the ability and the “leadership” requirement is simply a convenience for gameplay purposes, or arenanet actually wants to codify, in lore, that leading a guild makes you magically special. I’m guessing the first is true.
There’s only one Pact Commander. Well, there’s many of the rank, but in the main story there is only one player character. The others when involved are just random adventurers or simply non-existent.
So there couldn’t be any “made way through the appropriate story steps” for dozens of folks. There is one egg bearer.
I mean that’s all I have for you really, a theory, based upon observation and revised with your impressive historical knowledge, but I refuse to believe these crystals aren’t somehow connected with the overarcing emerging plotline of glint’s egg. Their appearance, prominence, and very existence is simply too well placed to be a coincidence.
They’re involved with Glint’s legacy plan. But her legacy plan exceeds the existence of the egg.
From A Study in Gold: “Glint’s legacy is far more than just her offspring, and you must protect it all.”
Anet chose, specifically, to make them crystals with a very close material apperance to that used everywhere we associate with glint in GW2, and chose to use a shape very appropriate for housing the GW2 version of what we know one of glint’s dragon eggs looks like.
I disagree that they’re close in appearance to Glint’s crystals.
Most of Glint’s crystals are blue, some are transparent – in both games. These are pure white.
ArenaNet kind of outright stated that the profession name doesn’t mean characters had to die.
More likely the name refers to how the legends are returning through the revenant. Even if the legends are merely echoes and not the true individual.
I think it changes every 20 levels.
So there’s an immediate, a level 20-39, and a lvl 40-59(+?)
I kind of have seen a lot of wings lately too. LWS2, Hot, Haliween, now pvp.
There weren’t any wings during S2…
I was not responding to the cost of the precursor via the colleicton at all. So please don’t be so hostile when you’re not even reading my post.
I was responding to WarMachen’s comment: “Why should it be this difficult for an exotic.”
I only have 13 for some reason, despite having quite a few achievements unlocked. I guess I should have been doing things like jumping puzzles (which I can never do) instead of obvious things like personal stories and fighting bosses.
The irony of this statement is that every personal story chapter achievement (42 for personal story, 16 for S2) gives a mastery point. And that the boss kill achievements give mastery points too.
And jumping puzzles, except for one or two harder ones, don’t.
Please anet, give us a better way to earn mastery points. You are at a distinct disadvantage if you have no interest in non-pve content and are rubbish at jumping puzzles.
Not including jumping puzzles, non-PvE content, or scavenger hunts you can obtain 53 Central Tyria mastery points.
Max total of Central Tyria mastery points: 58.
Yeah, I think they did. The five you’ll not be able to get are from 2 jumping puzzles and 3 scavenger hunts.
There isn’t a single non-PvE mastery point.
Edit:
Just as a heads up, the Mastery Points for Personal Story are awarded on a per-chapter basis. So once you complete Chapter 1 and earn the Achievement for it, you’ve earned the Mastery Point for Chapter 1. This includes each different starting storyline: I believe the right names are: Graduation Day, For The Legion!, Crime and Punishment, Rising to the Challenge, and Waking from the Nightmare. Similarly, whichever Order you join, there’s just one Mastery Point there.
Hopefully this helps clarify the total number of Mastery Points you should be expecting from your previous accomplishments in Tyria. That said, the different stories really are fantastic, and should definitely be experienced, but for your own pleasure, and not for Mastery Points.
If any of you still think you are missing MPs from Achievements you’ve completed, let us know via the in-game Bug Report tool and we’ll try to identify if there’s a bigger issue happening.
The achievements is VERY misleading and, IMO, it should be per achievement because you’re experiencing different storylines.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
It’s more than just an exotic, it’s the tier 3 precursor.
I’ll agree that the ‘journey’ the collections were supposed to give are largely non-existent, but that doesn’t mean it should be easy to get a precursor.
You’re only half true.
The term is never used towards a non-human. In either GW1 or GW2. At least, in large.
In fact, I believe in Ghosts of Ascalon it even says that most asura use it specifically in reference to humans.
The forgotten built the structures, but I’m fairly certain Exalted Burnishers put that golden sheen on them. That is literally their only job. They make stuff gold.
They don’t make things gold. Per the HoT trailer, it was an Exalted Sage that did such (which we actually see happening in the Auric Basin meta event – it’s sages, not burnishers, going out to activate the pylons turning them and their surroundings golden).
The Burnisher’s job is repair – both stone and flesh, they heal and mend.
If there were no exalted prior to GW1, then how is it possible we see the same forgotten architecture with gold leafing?
The only possible explanation is that the exalted derive this ability through instruction from the forgotten, which supports my theory of the fogotten having a heavy hand in testing/training the exalted, and thus being complicit with glint’s agenda.
Theory? It’s outright, explicitly, stated that the Forgotten recruited the Exalted. This is the entire basis, the very origin of the Exalted, stated everywhere there is Exalted lore. It’s no secret.
You’re talking in circles, drawing conclusions where fact has been established and where there is no conclusion to be had alike!
And all the while, you avoid the issues with your theory: if the Forgotten is the source of the golden structures, why did they not make the other ruins – which you claim they are the source of – out of gold too?
Those multiple eggs were not only housed in this one region. The core of my theory assumes such places exist all over tyria. we just so happen to have access to these ones.
Magus Falls is the first place such structures have been found, but we have access to a lot of Tyria – so they couldn’t “exist all over Tyria” otherwise we would have ran into others. There may be others like Tarir – in fact, A Study in Gold suggests such – but it’s also implied in A Study in Gold that the purpose for the Forgotten’s visits to Lost Precipice and GIlded Hollow is not related to the Exalted’s task (which is to protect the egg(s) from the Elder Dragons).
Your theory fails to acknowledge the stark difference between the structures despite claiming shared origins. Your theory fails to acknowledge why they moved on from Lost Precipice and Gilded Hollows when the purpose of such visits is stated to not be the same as purpose for visiting Tarir.
It’s no doubt to me that the crystal is tied to the Forgotten’s visits, given the difference in structure, which also hints to different origins.
Your theory also fails to explain why every egg but the one handed to the Zephyrites is treated differently. If they were all so important, one would think that they’d be treated similarly. And further, one would expect such important objects to hold better defenses – defenses the likes of which Tarir has (non-corruptable magic, non-corruptable and unaging defenders, a series of outposts to establish parameter defendes, etc. etc.).
Tarir, being, as far as we know, the newest of these structures was created without an egg at its heart, specifically to house the last egg which glint kept close by until she passed it off to the zephyrites. Tarir and the exalted are late comers because they’re failsafes. Tarir’s location has a lot more to do with its position as a leyline nexus. It’s a heavily fortified, leyline powered, purpose built bunker for a worst case scenario in which the outposts themselves (guild halls and other regions of tyria that include such a crystal) failed.
You don’t give a failsafe an insanely huge boost in effectiveness. You simply place it out of the way, out of sight.
Yet Tarir has everything these other places don’t have.
And Tarir isn’t powered by ley lines at all.
I’ll break it down to a simpler timeline to illustrate.
Human settlements exist.
Glint breaks away from kralk, shutters herself away in the crystal sanctuary with the assistance of a faction of forgotten.
Problem right here. Glint broke from Kralkatorrik before humanity even arrived on the world – during the previous dragonrise.
Glint begins work on a plan to safeguard tyria from the next rise of the EDs by creating a symbiotic “corruption” of tyria. She begins birthing a massive brood of eggs.
Except that her entire plan – the creation of the Exalted and passing her egg to the Zephyrites – went into motion after Primordus began awakening.
A series of enclaves is established across tyira. Each is protected by an aspect or device of Glint, a crystal, and each houses an egg.
Except that Tarir has no such device.
And Gilded Hollows/Lost Precipice has no location to house an egg. Nor are they on ley lines which would feed the eggs. Nor do they have any form of defenses. Nor do they have defenders that could prove effective against dragon minions.
Why is Tarir so much more effective as a defensive structure in comparison if all of these places were established as defensive structures?
Glint, recognizing the first stirring of the EDs and realizing her plan may not come to fruition soon enough.
Happened before she even made the steps we know of her plan.
TGlint accompanies DE against Kralk, in an attempt to buy her enclaves more time. She fails, and is killed.
With Glint’s death, the crystals protecting the egg enclaves fail. They are overrun quickly by forces seeking to consume or destroy the eggs. Some of these forces are elder dragons, some are domestic. The occupants of these settlements are killed or flee.
Glint entrusts a final egg, kept in stasis in the sanctuary, to the Zephyrites. Their mission, take the egg to Tarir.
Caithe discovers this information in the Silverwastes by accident. She determines that it is pert of her wild hunt to end the dragons that she deliver the egg to Tarir.
How can Glint die and then entrust the final egg to someone? Furthermore, the egg was given to the Zephyrites centuries ago per A Study in Gold – back when her plan was beginning to be set into motion (per all our knowledge).
And learning something doesn’t make it a Wyld Hunt for sylvari. Sylvari may not know what their Wyld Hunt is but they don’t just go “oh, this must be my Wyld Hunt”. It’s not like people thinking they found their purpose in life.
The Commander succeeds in bringing the egg to Tarir.
The Commander undergoes forgotten tests, becomes bonded with the egg, the commander is now “corrupted” by the infant dragon within.
The Commander discovers a sanctuary, clears it of Mordrem, and reactivates the crystal.
The crystal grows in strength as the commander and the egg mature in power.
The Commander lobotomizes Mordremoth.
Except that there is no timeline comparison between capturing a guild hall and the HoT storyline.
You can capture a guild hall before doing any of the HoT storyline beyond Verdant Brink, or after it all. Furthermore, it’s not the Pact Commander who captures a guild hall. It’s a guild. Which guild? Not in lore. Who is the guild leader? Not in lore.
Per lore, here is the confirmed timeline in relation to Glint:
They want dungeons to exists specifically for the token items at this point.
PvP reward tracks lead me to believe that they just want dungeons to not exist.
Aside from the dungeon achievements (not the collections at that), there’s no need to do dungeons. Ever.
They had a chance to make them relevant despite nerfing the rewards with the legendary precursor collections. What do they do? Fractals, fractals, same goals as other legendaries, fractals!
-_-
I don’t see how closing or opening the Dominion of Winds leads to Cantha. Tengu were in more places than just Cantha, and in fact the majority of tengu we saw in GW1 were in fact from Tyria – including every tengu we’ve seen in GW2 thus far (being of Caromi, Quetzal, and Avicara).
As to why, given the assumptions of this theory, you don’t see the same gold leafing in the structures in the wastes or lost precipice, I think it comes down to location.
The gold is a countermeasure to mordremoth specifically, and these locations are quite some distance from the percieved stronghold of mordremoth. It also worth noting that as far as we know that gold leafing is a product of the exalted themselves as some sort of magical constructs.
There are a number of issues with this, which I’ve actually already addressed.
Maybe we’re looking at other orders, perhaps not proto-zephyrites, but sister orders similar to how the brotherhood of the dragon was related in purpose but not directly in lineage. These were guarding eggs in these locations, and that not all of these people were destined to ultimately joining the ranks of the exalted, it would also make sense that those settlements didn’t bear the distinctive architecture and materials used by the exalted.
These ruins look to be older, imo, and based on the dialogue of A Study in Gold with the Forgotten naming Lost Precipice but just called Gilded Hollows ‘a hollow’ seems to indicate that Lost Precipice was a place before the Forgotten showed up.
Furthermore, this does not address the critical question: why house multiple eggs in the same region? Why house an egg in Lost Precipice but the one meant for Tarir be carried across the world?
The exalted may have been a concept invented later on, after the establishments of these orders, specifically in preparation for when/if they fell. This falls in the timeline pretty well, and would also support this idea that the forgotten in support of glint weren’t around for their founding, but showed up later to assist and direct the exalted recruiting process.
The supposed founding of these establishments to guard Glint’s eggs requires Glint to be around… You just contradicted yourself in the singular post…
And it still doesn’t solve the fact that it is the Forgotten, not the Exalted, who built the golden structures.
I’m also pretty sure they’re not related to the druids. We’ve seen pre-transformation druid dwellings all over magumma in GW1. Empty cities in the thick jungles, usually not too far from a few helpful local druids. You find them in exploration zones and all over the jungle, always devoid of population, unlike everywhere else in GW1 we see dwellings, which are either explained as or physically populated by npcs.
We’ve seen structures in the Maguuma, but never any origin placed to them. The closest thing to structures we saw druids nearby resemble the sylvari’s houses, and even that’s a bit of a stretch and is where the druids were as spirits not as flesh and blood.
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