Guild Wars 2

We don’t even know the DSD’s first domain.

Lacuda.8543:

Seriously though, can’t even see my face anymore.

Of course not, it’s been burned away by the fire!

saturn.4810:

Don’t go near skritt xD

Or do. I’m sure the Exalted would love for a few less skritt fawning over them.

TBH, once I learned what the final story instance would be, I thought that would be the mental projection from Mordremoth we fight (with arms – using the Shadow Behemoth frame but as a vine creature) with a landscape covered in the vines (think the wriggling vines in the bottom of Verdant Brink). Instead we got Krait Oratuss with legs.

PopeUrban.2578:

I think separating the forgotten from glint’s agenda isn’t really a valid assumption.

I think it’s foolish for us not to do so!

You seem to be under the impression that the Forgotten only served Glint, but this is false. The Forgotten disappeared shortly after the Six Gods did, served for over a thousand years as Abaddon’s wardens, even went to war when the Margonites defaced the statues of the five gods (not Abaddon’s) at the Temple of the Six at the border of the Crystal Sea.

The Forgotten did serve Glint, but it was more of an alliance. The ones they were truly devoted to were the Six Gods. They came to the world at the Six Gods’ behest. They acted as guardians for the races, helping them recover from the Elder Dragons’ assault, at the Six Gods’ behest, and suffered living in the worst place in the multiverse in service to the Six Gods. They only allied with Glint because Glint was capable of hiding the races from the Elder Dragons and because the Forgotten could not create another Bloodstone and had to make preparations for saving Tyria that, apparently, the Six Gods either could not or would not do.

Not everything the Forgotten did was in relation to Glint – this is a FACT. The question is more of “what did they do for Glint” not “did they do anything not for Glint”.

PopeUrban.2578:

Glint didn’t open a portal to her lair for us because we ascended. Becoming ascended was the prerequisite. This was unbeknownst to us, but there was literally no other reason to do so.

Ascension wasn’t a prerequisite for visiting Glint. Destiny’s Edge never Ascended, yet they went to her lair. The GW2 PC never ascended, yet they went to her lair.

Ascension was needed to fight the mursaat, not to go to Glint’s lair.

PopeUrban.2578:

The ancient elonians may have attempted ascension for different reasons, and the forgotten may have initially designed the asecnsion trials for different reasons, but by the time prophecies rolls around, it is made quite clear that the reason we are seeking ascension is specifically to gain audience with glint.

Again false. The reason we are seeking Ascension is not to gain audience with Glint, but because the Flameseeker Prophecies state that a group of Chosen will Ascend so that they can fight the mursaat – our stated enemies, though still by the name of the Unseen Ones at that point.

This is the dialogue that explains why we go to the Crystal Desert:

Vizier Khilbron: “Do not be so sure. There is still a way to beat the White Mantle.”
Vizier Khilbron: “Venture to the Crystal Desert and Ascend. Only then will you be powerful enough to take on the rest of the White Mantle and their unseen gods.”
<Party Leader>: “What must we do?”
Vizier Khilbron: “Find the prophet, and claim the gift of True Sight.”
Vizier Khilbron: “That’s right. You are all Chosen.”
Vizier Khilbron: “And now you must venture through the desert. Prove yourselves worthy and claim your birthright.”
Vizier Khilbron: “Then you will take this fight to them.”
Vizier Khilbron: “Prepare yourselves. the trials of Ascension await.”

While Khilbron does say to find Glint (aka the prophet), the purpose of Ascension is to become powerful enough to fight the Unseen Ones. The goals of heading to the desert is “find Glint and become Ascended” not “become Ascended to find Glint.”

PopeUrban.2578:

Glint foresaw that a group of chosen would fulfill the flameseeker prophecies. Glint actively hid herself away from those not fit to persue her agenda. Ascending has no other narrative purpose.

If this was so, why did she remain in hiding in her lair during the time of Edge of Destiny? There would be no more need.

“No. No. The great dragon has little to fear from intruders. Little indeed. Her defenses are not to protect her. They are to test those who wish to gain her audience. The task she has foreseen in your future is not one for the weak. Oh no. She wants to be sure, sure that only those strong enough to complete this important task reach her.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Forgotten_Gate_Keeper

Her defenses are there for anyone who wished to seek her audience, not specifically the Chosen.

PopeUrban.2578:

Khilbron tells us to go to the desert and ascend, which is obviously against his own interests. We do so under the false impression that we are obtaining power to return and fight the white mantle. Khilbron has the scepter of Orr already. He believes (rightly) he can take on the Mursaat alone. He’s attempting to dispose of us without showing his hand.

This is also false.

Khilbron led us not only to the Crystal Desert but the Ring of Fire. He could dispose of the mursaat… but only after opening the Door of Komalie, which he needed the Chosen for. And besides Khilbron and the titans don’t kill off most of the mursaat we do.

From Abaddon’s Mouth journal entry: “With the Mursaat in shambles, there is no one left to stop the Lich but me. I have little time before he sends his titans across Tyria to rule the world.”

The mursaat were destroyed by us.

PopeUrban.2578:

Only after we ascend are we immediately whisked away (by the forgotten) to speak with glint and have our true purpose revealed.

Oh, yes, we are “whisked away” when we follow a voice (Glint’s, we later learn) and head into a portal.

Very much ‘whisked away’.

PopeUrban.2578:

The only reason for ascension is to find those worthy to carry out glint’s agenda, an agenda the forgotten are quite obviously complicit with.

You do not know what Ascension is, then. It is more than mere trials – it is an actual thing. It, like Weh no Su (which is just another form of Ascension), allows those who undergo it to see souls and those hiding in the spirit realm with ease. This includes the mursaat who would slip partway into the Mists (aka spirit realm).

Ascension is more than a mere title. It is more than a simple series of tests. It’s a literal thing.

PopeUrban.2578:

In the time of prophecies that agenda was to close the door of Komali, because then, as 200 years later, Glint has in mind the best interests of the peoples of tyria.

Actually, the agenda was to kill off the mursaat. Opening the Door was just a means to an end – a means that proved far more devastating than Glint had foreseen.

PopeUrban.2578:

Only after these events did glint establish the forgotten and their mission. After the flameseeker prophecies were fulfilled, and the immediate threat of the titans was dealt with.

Whatever they may have served originally, it’s quite clear that well before the events of GW1, many of the forgotten aligned themselves with glint’s agenda.

Yet even during the events of GW1, these many of the forgotten are aligned with the gods’ agenda too.

PopeUrban.2578:

The forgotten are deeply linked with glint’s agenda any time we encounter them in tyria.

Not any time.

And seeing how we only encounter those who served Glint while in Tyria – sans the one above – that’s a rather biased sample. We know that while in Tyria, there were many who were not aligned with Glint. Like those who were around before Glint was freed, or those who fought the Margonites in the name of the gods.

PopeUrban.2578:

In fact the only other place we find them is as wardens in the domain of anguish, which is a conflict not entirely unrelated to closing the gate of komali and ansuring tyria isn’t overrun by the titans.

Realm of Torment*

And their purpose is not to keep the titans in check, but to keep Abaddon in check. And each and every one of them there mention only the gods as the ones they align with. Not a single mention of Glint.

Which caused many to think that the Forgotten were a people divided in two.

PopeUrban.2578:

The Titans are being of extreme magical power. Letting them run roughshod over Tyria would look pretty attractive to a bunch of sleeping elder dragons would it not?

Source? They’re made from tormented souls, which while true are oft used as a form of energy by demons… are not necessarily ‘extreme magical power’.

Besides, if you knew your lore you would know that the Fury was leading the titans into Tyria, and would have followed suite if the Door hadn’t been closed so quickly, to lead the way for Abaddon’s return.

Abaddon was using Khilbron to open the Door of Komalie to bring forth his first attempt at Nightfall. Shiro was his second attempt. Varesh his third.

PopeUrban.2578:

The flameseeker prophecies weren’t a vision of the future. They were a series of meticulous manipulations of many of the key players in tyria by both glint and the forgotten to prevent the rise of the elder dragons.

This statement is countered by everything we know of Glint, however.

Even by the Exalted and Forgotten, Glint is said to be a prophet who foresaw the future – just not everything of it.

PopeUrban.2578:

The forgotten care for glint’s sanctuary in prophecies, and are her oldest allies. They are the gatekeepers and the administrators of trials, but untimately all such trials lead right back to glint, glint’s agents, glint’s egg, etc.

Just because Glint makes use of them doesn’t mean they were designed for her.

PopeUrban.2578:

Though the forgotten seem to have a larger mandate (as we see them as the gatekeepers of the domain of anguish) for the preservation and balance of tyria, it is impossible to deny that they are both complicit and willfully involved in glint’s agenda.

Exactly. The Forgotten have a larger mandate.

And that is serving the Six Gods. THAT is their larger mandate.

Just because the trials of Ascension was utilized by Glint does not mean that they were made for Glint.

PopeUrban.2578:

I will concede, after reviewing the tablets again that the guild hall ruins are of forgotten rather than exalted origin, but their purpose remains unchanged. They were built to nuture those crystals, and those crystals were created by glint specifically to extend her power, or that of her offspring, ot protect tyria from the elder dragons.

Lost Precipice isn’t even Forgotten in origin. The Forgotten were there – that is undeniable – but they did not build the place.

Given the human statues there, it is safe to argue that humans built it. The same people who built the ruins in Silverwastes (the forts and near the skritt place underground).

PopeUrban.2578:

There are multiple points of light in the tree’s vision, emanating from magumma itself. We see her represent the jungle as the dragon (as evidenced by the dragon eye motif in the branches) and the shadow of the dragon as its agent. I believe these additional points of light represent glint’s crystals.

What dragon eye. The only motif created by Branches is the Pale Tree’s face at the very beginning.

The vision begins showing the Pale Tree going into dormancy (“I am fading”). Then the vision pushes beyond the Pale Tree to show a crystal egg that the Shadow of the Dragon flies towards, with golden structures rising from clouds, then a series of pillars of lights which drive off the dragon. Then the egg sinks into the crystals, which shatter as the screen pulls back showing Mordremoth’s vine growing.

Interpretation aside, none of this is The All, which you claimed.

PopeUrban.2578:

We see a warning from the egg about what may become of civilization is Mordy is allowed to succeed, yes, but the end of that vision isn’t merely about Moredremoth. It represents both mordy and dragons in general, and the shining city represents both Tarir and tyrian civilization.

Which is, again, not The All, which you claimed.

PopeUrban.2578:

The vision in Omadd’s machine specifically references the fact that we killed zhaitan. The central orb represents tyria, and the others orbit it. One orb (zhaitan) crashes in to tyria, at which point the balance of the other obs in orbit is disrupted, all but the pink orb which remains in place, but is quickly covered by the disruption that emanates from the center. I believe the pink orb represents kralkatorrik, and thus glint’s, and her offspring’s sphere of influence. I believe the disruption specifically shows the displacement of zhaitan’s sphere of influence. That vision is a warning that the other dragons (orbs) are becoming untethered by the absence of zhaitan, but that one orb (the pink one) is choosing to remain in place. This orb is Kralk, Glint, her offspring, and if her plan comes to fruition, us.

That’s just image manipulation. Tunnel vision, effectively, that centralizes on the middle. The purple orb was close to the center in the background while the others were on the edge of the screen. You can tell this is mere image manipulate by how everything gets distorted and stretched, with more distortion the further away from the center is. Even the purple orb becomes less of an orb, with it being pulled to a side giving it a “squished” appearance. See attachments.

I don’t think anyone’s beaten Sabetha yet, who seems to be the final boss of the first wing. But even those who have gotten to her (beaten Gorseval) hasn’t posted any lore. Only lore collected is that you get on your way to Vale Guardian. That I’ve seen at least.

The mordrem guard Rytlock fights looks like any other male mordrem guard without leystone armor.

Edit: I’m rather surprised they outsourced for that trailer. One of the things they said about the first trailer for GW2 was that they didn’t like having outsourced cgi trailers because those trailers didn’t show the ‘true look’ of the games they were for. This was why every promo trailer for GW2 was made by ArenaNet. They wanted to accurately depict the game they were making the trailer for.

Guess the people who thought this had joined the exodus after GW2’s release and no longer work at ANet.

Daddicus.6128:

30 laurels for the recipes for one full armor set (6 × 5).
30 for one amulet.
70 for two rings
80 for two accessories

Total 210 for one character. I have 9 characters. That’s 1890.

Laurels were added January, 2013. You could only gain 40 per month, but I don’t know for how many months before it changed to about 35 per 28 days. Plus, you can get another 20 if you pick laurels for the 28th day of the cycle. Roughly 1500 since they started. Hence, a shortage.

• 0 laurels for Ventari/Verata armor/weapon set. Zealot’s too, though that costs more from TP unless you find the Pact Vendor on its daily rotation. The new HoT stats bought for map currencies also cost 0 laurels.
• Go to WvW for amulet – 20 laurels + some badges of honor (given from AP chests, unless you bought a bunch of stuff from WvW merchants or are new you’ll have plenty – and they’re not hard to get either).
• 0 laurels for rings if you do 20 fractal dailies (2 low levels per day – 10 days; 5 total per day – 4 days)
• 0 laurels for accessories if you use guild commendations – each one will require 6 commendations aka 1 weeks’ worth give or take

Total per character: 20 laurels

It all depends on how you get your ascended gear. Not all of them are limited behind laurels. And if you want stats that are for weapons/armor – it’s actually cheaper to make Ventari/Verata gear and then use the new mystic forge recipes to stat change them.

It could cost a boatload of laurels. But there are alternatives. It’s just a matter of if you can get those alternative currencies (Pristine Fractal Relics, Guild Commendations, Badges of Honor, and direct silver or map currencies) better – which in all cases is pretty much a yes.

Swagger.1459:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Laurel drought? Has the Daily Log-in Rewards changed with the last patch?

How many sets of light, medium, and heavy armor do you have?

Out of those armor sets, what stat sets are they?

How many ascended weapons do you have?

Out of those ascended weapons, how many different stat seats do you have?

Ascended amulets, rings and trinkets…?

Infusion in your ascended gear?

It adds up, and now that raids are upon us, the devs want us to fill roles. Roles require gear and such… Not everyone just sits on their laurels ya know…

I’ve outfitted two characters completely with only spending 10 laurels and that was before I knew I didn’t have to spend a single laurel.

• Buy out Ventari or Verata recipes from the TP – they cost next to nothing, a few dozen silver at most. Ventari is probably cheaper overall.
• Create a set of Ventari/Verata armor. This is the hardest part.
• Create Orichalcum/Gossamer Insignia/Inscriptions of the stats you actually want.
• Mystic Forge those suckers.

Not a single laurel spent, and you just got yourself a full set of ascended armor and weapons.

For rings, do some fractals – 10 dailies (of which you can get 5 per day tops iirc – 2 a day if you have no AR) and you’ve got your first ring. Another 10 for your second. The trick would be infusing them, but you don’t need to do that unless you do fractals regularly. No laurels.

For accessories, 1 set of guild missions and you’ve got them – again, no laurels.

For amulets, you’ll have to spend 20 laurels and some Badges of Honor. Unless you get a stat tied to an achievement and don’t need a dupe of it.

No backpieces, afaik, require laurels.

If you add infusions – you could spend 5 laurels for a mere +4. Or you could put out some T6 mats for a +5 to the stats and AR, allowing you to get further rings faster/do higher fractals. Though honestly, getting 56 additional stats – or 70 – probably won’t be that huge unless you put them all into a single stat. Which would require omni infusions which don’t cost laurels.

A character ENTIRELY decked out in ascended gear. 20 laurels needed.

Drought? Adds up?

That’s not the issue. The issue is that you aren’t looking for the cheapest/easiest alternative. You’re looking for the most direct. Which in this case costs a lot of laurels.

There are other methods – permanent ones – to get ascended gear too. Such as the raid vendor.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

saturn.4810:

What part of Dr Hashbrown is considered inappropriate?

Google the Urban Dictionary for hashbrown.

If urban dictionary is the reason then that’s just stupid. Urban Dictionary makes EVERYTHING inappropriate.

It’s like banning something because 4chan did it.

It’s right at the beginning. Don’t think you even have to kill any of the colored guardians (but you do have to run around them or through them).

Honestly, the size thing is why I found the climactic battle of Edge of Destiny strange… How is a spear thrown by a charr going to pierce Kralkatorrik’s heart? Or is its heart practically beating against his skin? I suppose that’s possible, and Glint did direct to a specific location.

Hmmm….

I could see fighting Kralkatorrik to be a fight where we attack a sole weak-spot to beat through crystal scales (which are pulsing to a rhythm) after which we see the exposed beating heart of Kralkatorrik. That would allow us to have us fight a mountain-sized foe with wings that block out the sun and make it reasonable. To a degree.

What maddoctor said. It’s The Shatterer:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Dragon_04_concept_art_(Dragon_Flying).jpg

Art by Kekai Kotaki

I’m not so sure we’re going to go after Kralkatorrik next.

Our latest update

@Cure: Uh… yes. Soul and spirit are the same thing in everything.

@Eragamer:Actually, devs have stated that Zhaitan is dead.

Well the issue with making your enemies huge is that unless they are what you’re fighting on/inside, the fights are just ridiculous. As the joke goes: “Here, let me trim your toenails until you’re dead.”

So I think it’s expected that in lore Zhaitan and Mordremoth are much larger – it’s just that you can’t really depict their true size without the issue of it seeming silly. This is no doubt why we fought the Marionette indirectly.

That said, in regard to size scaling, both in-lore and in game I’m expecting smallest to largest to be: Primordus → Zhaitan → Mordremoth → Jormag → Kralkatorrik → DSD

I would like to see a comparison of Jormag’s tooth to the head of Zhaitan/Mordremoth, but from what I recall of going to Mordremoth’s corpse at the end of the event chain, Jormag’s tooth is about the height of Mordremoth’s jaw (half of his head).

Along with what Wanze said:

While not entirely reliable, they did introduce a means to get Zealot recipes again.

So as time goes on, the prices will drop.

Grim West.3194:

The new name is Grind Wars 2 unfortunately.

Despite the constant comments about Grind in GW2, I have not seen it.

If you think GW2 is grind, I don’t want to know what you think F2P MMOs are.

Ernedar.2937:

1) Krakkatorik is the next Elder dragon we will fight.

Why?
Acumulated energy in a the egg of Tarir at the end of the story line of HoT.

I fail to see the connection there. The two are on opposite sides of the map. How does the egg affect Kralkatorrik any more than the other three remaining Elder Dragons?

Ernedar.2937:

2) Locations of the Elder Dragon Fights:
Krakkatorik – Crystal Desert, Deldrimoir Mountains
Jormag – Far Shiverpeaks
Primodius – Ring of Fire – Scavengers Chasm
Deep sea dragon – Isles of Janthir

Why?
First two a bit obvious, The last two I think will be situated as i wrote because of the white, unused space on a map. Logical conclusion will be that Kryta dont have its dragon, because of that they will be threatened by Deep Sea one.

The notion that “every race has to have a dragon” is downright false. First off, Zhaitan was ’humanity’s dragon’ if such had to be true, but more importantly: there are five races, six dragons. There’s not going to be a perfect 1:1 ratio.

Secondly, we already know the very rough very approximated location of the DSD and that is to the south. Janthir is to the north.

And there’s no connection between Primordus and the Ring of Fire. Primordus is in the Depths and his thus far strongest place of influence has been throughout the Shiverpeaks (under which he awoke). More likely we’ll be getting some ‘underground layer’ maps when we face him.

Ernedar.2937:

3) All Dwarfs are not dead and they will be as a next Race.

Why?
This is sort of a Wish but conclusion too. I like dwarfs. Ogden is still alive although he is part of a rock. Why? He is a multicultural. When Dwarfs sacrificed themselfs, that was only part of them. The rest of them are in a deldrimor Mountains, waiting to fight Krakkatorik – Dwarfs will be next playable race, as Revenant is a playable Class because of fighting Mordremoth.

Dwarves will not be a playable race. ArenaNet had gone out of the way to stress that the reason why they removed them from the story (by turning them into stone) is because they’re an overused trope.

Turning to stone didn’t kill them, but Ogden is called the last dwarf. This is no doubt without reason.

Tengu, largos, and kodan all have a higher likelihood of being the next playable race if Anet ever adds one.

Ernedar.2937:

4) We are running in circles.

Why?
The first one is a single dragon fight and it is a bit obvious. Dragon woke up. Make things to “destroy” the world, we fight him, kill him, SOMEBODY gives energy to another dragon.

The second one can be obvious too. But there is a system:

Zaithan
Awoken, killed. But there is how is the important thing. When you go throught the story, there is a moment when weapon against Zaithan is given to your friend. After that. Zaithan is lowered on powers with it, when cleasing of Orr is done. By this sword given by pale tree. My theory is, that when you fight an Elder Dragon, a weapon is given for fighting him. In Mordremoths demise it was an egg and YOU as a champion of an Elder Dragon to kill him and you do.

So. For Zaithan you got Mordremoth magic style weapon to kill him, for Modremoth you were given a crystal egg. So if you complete the circle: Krakkatorik might be defeated by sort of Jormags magic, Jormag by Primodius magic, Primodius by “Bubbles” magic and “Bubbles” will be killed by Zaithans magic. Circle will be complete.

Three issues:

First, Caladbolg wasn’t used against Zhaitan, but Zhaitan’s corruption. What was used to kill Zhaitan was Gorr’s research augmented by the laser tested in Sparkfly as well as Kudu and Snaff’s research on dragon energies, which accumilated in a series of weapons (a laser cannon, magic-fied grappling hooks, and specialized cannons) designed for the sole purpose of poisoning Zhaitan’s magic. Done after we starved him for weeks.

Second, the egg wasn’t used against Mordremoth. Or anything related to Mordremoth.

Third, Kralkatorrik’s weakness has actually been

Ernedar.2937:

5) We are not heroes but predecessors of the destruction.

Why?
By season 1 of a GW2 we are given a story that sylvari Scarlet charged/ breached leylines to woke up Mordremoth. At the end of story of the HoT we done the same. We are same as a Scarlet, but not by our intent meaning, but by friends advice. When you are killing your dying friend with the sword, you do same thing as Scarlet done. You are breaching the leyline. Effect is the same. Leylines breaching the jungle to Tarir and charging the Egg.

Not quite.

What Scarlet did was redirect flow of multiple ley lines into a singular direction. She pushed all magic flow that would normally be criss-crossing and changed it to a single-flow traffic. That flow directed to Mordremoth.

When we killed Mordremoth, his magic was released from his body returning to the ley lines, traveling upon them in all directions. Immediately, we have four major directions – one of which was to the egg where it stopped due to being absorbed – but the others would have split off at every ley line hub going in potentially hundreds of directions – unless the magic was absorbed before such can happen like with the egg (The Grove, being in the direction of one such ley line, might have done such). Unlike with Scarlet, the ley lines were not blocked and they went in many directions rather than one.

Ernedar.2937:

6) Elder Dragon is only brain nothing else.

Why?
There are no different magic types. Just one. In fact there is only one magic type as a fuel of the circle of Tyria world.

Destinys Edge lowered magic of a Krakkatorik and Zaithan awoke. etc.

Uhm… Zhaitan was awake 100 years before Kralkatorrik woke.

Order of awakening: Primordus → Jormag → Zhaitan → Kralkatorrik → Mordremoth. The DSD is also awake, but we don’t know when it woke. Hints imply between Primordus and Jormag however. Either way, Mordremoth was the last Elder Dragon to wake up.

Also, we know there are at least four types of magic. In GW1 they were called schools of magic. In GW2, they’re referred to as energy types, though we only have the names of three: Light, Dark, and Chaos energy. We also know of draconic energy (no, it is not the same as chaos energy) and divine magic (such as divine fire).

Ernedar.2937:

But what are the elder dragons? Lets make a similarity in a computer world. You have programs named by Elder dragons and they are sleeping, because they have no energy to do for what are they programmed. Kill the world, revitalize it and let it grow again. At some point program Zaithan have enough energy to woke up. Program is destroyed, energy is flowing, somebody kick the trigger to make a way to another program…. So Elder Dragons are something like only a conscious, program or something, and when they get an energy, they make their appear in a way they are programmed.

Comparison doesn’t quite work.

You see, the Elder Dragons go to sleep when there’s no more magic in the world to consume. As they sleep, the magic leaves their body in a non-hostile form (doesn’t corrupt) and the magic in the world refills. When the magic levels are high, the Elder Dragons wake up and try to dominate the world while consuming magic once more.

Ernedar.2937:

Zaithan – Rose the Orr from the water
Mordremoth – Taking sylvari and rose a jungle.
Krakkatorik – Desert and Dwaren woken up.
Jormag – ?
Primodius – ?
Bubbles – Divinity Reach destroyed, battle of Janthir Isles (theory).

Dwarves don’t need to be ‘woken up’ because they’ve always been active fighting Primordus. Plus we’ve been told they’re dead.

For the DSD to destroy Divinity’s Reach, it has to either swim around the entire continent to go from south of Tyria to north of Tyria, or march its way through Rata Sum, the Grove, Lion’s Arch, and half of Tyria. That’s not gonna happen.

Burrowing dragon? Nein.

Dopy Crocodile man? Nein.

Upright Dragon Moss. Ja.

PopeUrban.2578:

I’m fairly certain the EDs sis not “come to be” because of the consumption of magic. The consume magic because of what they are.

I wasn’t trying to imply that… in a way.

“Dragons consume magic” is a line used quite a bit… but it’s not about Elder Dragons. It’s about dragons. This is one of many implications of a species or group of species called ‘dragons’, and we know of some: Dragon Moss, Turtle Dragons, and Saltspray Dragons are three such we saw in Cantha. Bone Dragons had to come from somewhere, as did the corpses that make up Zhaitan’s dragon champions, and Glint is said to have been a creature before corruption. Those later three were likely all the same species of dragons too.

What are the Elder Dragons? Hard to say. But dragons exist outside of the Elder Dragons and they consume magic.

If the Elder Dragons are merely different members of the same superspecies that is ‘dragons’ then they would be special individuals amongst them.

Thus “they consume magic because of what they are” but also “they came to be” because of their (over) consumption of magic.

But there is indication that the Elder Dragons were never anything before being Elder Dragons. Some, minor, indications imply that the Elder Dragons came to be as Elder Dragons, and that their very nature is being beings made out of magic. Thus again, ‘they consume magic because of what they are’ but they also ‘came to be because of consumption of magic’.

The two are not mutually exclusive. And I would argue that both are true whether their nature is ‘most likely outcome number 1’ or ‘most likely outcome number 2’ and both may remain true even if their nature is ‘outcome number 3 that never got hinted or implied before’.

PopeUrban.2578:

As to Konig, the apex predator theory is one I’ve heard before, but given the longevity of these beings, and their apparent intelligence I can’t accept a largely instinctual “and then we ate all the magic and hibernated” explanation from a standpoint of logic.

Whomever said instinctual? Certainly not I.

It is a pretty obvious fact – especially if you read Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows – that each Elder Dragon has their own ultimate goals for the world, as well as their own individual personalities and their own individual concepts of self and of the world (if they deign to separate the two – Mordremoth doesn’t).

Nothing about the Elder Dragons is instinctual.

I was saying that they eat magic then go to sleep because they have no other choice. To remain awake would mean starving to death, and the Elder Dragons do not wish to die (like just about every other being) – or perhaps starving results in hibernation simply due to the nature of their bodies and being.

In other words: there are too many Elder Dragons for all six Elder Dragons to remain awake permanently and consume magic at the rate all six are consuming magic.

In theory, if they consumed less magic then they could remain awake longer (if not indefinitely), but they are not allied and as such if one were to avoid eating the others may not and become capable of overpowering the one that avoided eating to attempt to stay awake longer. Since they also seek self-preservation (as all beings do), they do not make themselves vulnerable to the other Elder Dragons.

PopeUrban.2578:

While its true that what we learn from the apostate indicated we don’t know the exact balancing mechanisms, it would be foolish to assume the EDs are not intrinsically linked with it given the vision we experienced in Omadd’s machine, or the one passed to us by the pale tree, or the tail end of the one passed to use by the egg.

What part of these three visions indicate that the Elder Dragons are part of The All?

Omadd’s Machine showed us six colored orbs lighting up and circling around Tyria, then one crashing into Tyria. These orbs are related to the Elder Dragons by the Durmand Priory.

The Pale Tree’s vision shows the egg and Tarir and how Mordremoth is after it.

The egg’s vision shows Mordremoth’s plans for Destiny’s Edge.

I don’t see how the latter two relate to the All at all, and the first being so abstract is hard to see the exact relation between the All and the Elder Dragons.

PopeUrban.2578:

the tree’s vision clearly warns of a representation of rays of energy as dragons through multiple dragon images.

No it doesn’t. It shows the egg glowing high in Tarir with the Shadow of the Dragon seeking it; we see then pillars of light, then we see the egg dropping down into a crystal lair (Glint’s Lair) which shatters.

The vision showed a kind of reverse of what we did: go to Glint’s Lair to see it drop down into the Master of Peace’s hands. Take it to Tarir, where it lit up in a pillar of light, all the while Mordremoth seeks the egg out.

PopeUrban.2578:

Again, at the tail end of the egg’s vision we see what is presumably tarir, or a representation of the civilised world in danger of consumption by a dragon (likely mordremoth).

Which has no relation to The All.

PopeUrban.2578:

We can easily assume that even if the dragons themselves are not the six elements, they are extremely closely linked to them.

I never denied such. In fact, I explicitly stated that: “we don’t know what the bodies of power represent, only that they’re are somehow tied to the Elder Dragons.”

PopeUrban.2578:

We can also assume that Glint’s agenda was in the interest of the people of tyria, and that the egg, the exalted, tarir, and thus the guild halls (which are abandoned exalted settlements according to notes in tarir) are also part of that plan.

The guild halls were visited by the Forgotten, not Exalted.

But if you go to Lost Precipice you can tell with absolute definitiveness that the location is neither Forgotten nor Exalted. It’s full of human statues – the same statues seen in Aquatic Fractal – and more importantly is made of the same structures as the forts in Silverwastes. There is also a hidden statue of Melandru or Dwayna (couldn’t get a good look) in an overgrown portion of it.

We don’t know why the Forgotten visited the halls, but it’s hard to be so certain thakittens into Glint’s legacy.

PopeUrban.2578:

Passing the Forgotten’s test chamber allows us to activate and bond with these crystals, and they feed of of us. As we invest ourselves in to the guilds, they grow.

What if claiming guild halls happens canonically before doing City of Hope?

No trials then.

PopeUrban.2578:

Think back to prophecies, where another set of Forgotten trials had to be passed. In that time the trials were to gain entrance to glint’s domain, and glint again forced another set of trials.

Wrong. The trials were to gain access to the Hall of Ascension. After we ascended, Glint opened a portal for us to get to her lair from the Hall of Ascension. The trials are unrelated to us getting to Glint’s lair.

PopeUrban.2578:

Any time we deal with Glint or her agents, we are tested. Why?

Ruka explains – the Forgotten always test people before giving them things, to ensure that they are worthy of what’s being given. It’s got nothing to do with Glint, but the Forgotten.

And each set of tests – always, curiously, in threes – is done for different purposes.

Forgotten establish tests for those seeking Ascension – something unrelated to Glint in the long run. They established tests for those who would become Exalted. And they established tests for the one who brought the egg to Tarir to ensure they are worthy of facing the Elder Dragons.

Simplicity.7208:

Was this really the case? I don’t remember this at all from that patch sad face here.

ArenaNet has an issue of not making things clear.

I did a lot of digging into lore for everything back then – kind of still do but more out of habit than actual interest.

Some of the information came from objects added with Secret of Southsun, and it was never explicitly stated (as said – they don’t make things clear) but when you add the dots together that’s what you get.

Simplicity.7208:

Perhaps after the first observatory was destroyed the Consortium didn’t scrap the project, they simply lost their connection to the fractals and were unable to reestablish it until it happened as a fluke trying to get to southsun? It would be at this point that they would try to continue their research. It still doesn’t explain how Dessa got involved though since if this were the case the Consortium would’ve had control over the fractal gate and who entered/exited and thus Dessa would’ve been well aware she’d be working with them. However, she doesn’t seem to know that.

The Consortium didn’t even know about the Fractals at first, however. So the chances of the Consortium being connected to them at any point prior to The Lost Shores is… extremely slim.

Simplicity.7208:

I guess, but ANet likes to retcon stuff all the time and I figured this could’ve just been another one of those “nah they were there from the beginning” type things. At the same time, you could be right and it could just be a “hey these are cool” plop type of thing. I guess we won’t really know for a while though.

Unless it’s Angel’s doing the retcons Anet like to do are cases of “false records” and lies.

Simplicity.7208:

Unrelated thought, but I wonder why they need to be cleared again? In my theory it’s to prevent another breach. Just for her research then I guess for the other theories (even though they won’t ever make progress being stuck in time themselves).

Because studying the Mists is a long process, they need more time than the Fractals give before resetting. Talk to Dessa and she says:

PC: Are the fractals safe now?
Dessa: For now. Fractals operate like a loop. They reset and hostile elements return. I haven’t yet cracked how to permanently pacify them.
PC: So, you do this over and over again? Sounds pointless.
Dessa: It certainly isn’t! Every iota of data we gather is one step closer to understanding the Mists. If we stop, that’ll be the true waste.

Simplicity.7208:

With the raving asura’s letter, Dessa’s sorrow, and Dessa’s obvious emotional reaction to the fractal, I think it’s a safe bet to say Dessa is related to the Uncategorized fractal in some way.

In your theory, she’s not related to Uncategorized Fractal at all.

All those things show is that she’s related to the Raving Asura, really.

Simplicity.7208:

The Consortium PR and Legal Defense Team

-snip-

The consortium says it’s their asura gate. They pretty clearly laid claim to the fractals of the mist, or at least the only method of entry. Not only that, they’re advertising it (which costs money, advertisement isn’t free) so they have something to gain by having people go into the fractals. Whether that’s benefiting from Dessa’s research, getting the loot the PCs miss inside the fractals shipped out for profit, or simply having a fee associated with using their asura gate, they’re clearly profiteering somehow. This is the consortium after all.

You do realize that letter is from before LA was destroyed, right?

Even when the asura gate was up in Western Ward, it said near Fort Marriner. It still says near Fort Marriner, not inside it – where it currently is.

So all we know is that it was their asura gate. Something I explicitly stated. Not that it still is.

Simplicity.7208:

This is true, however she clearly has a krewe and golems. And since there’s not a lot of metal just floating around the fractal observatory the golems were built in Tyria. They clearly came from someone. She does have help even if she doesn’t explicitly state it. Of course she could’ve just built the golems herself before she entered the fractals and then brought them with her. However that doesn’t explain the appearance of new golems with HoT in the observatory. Those clearly came from someone in Tyria and since Dessa can’t leave…..

Not a lot of metal…

They have access to fractals. That return to a previous state in time – and since we clearly loot the fractals over and over again and that’s considered lore, even things taken out of the fractals recreate itself.

So they could have krewe members go into dredge fractal to gather metal, wait for it to reset, and gather the same metal to build those golems.

Your reasoning is flawed.

Simplicity.7208:

They advertise it as an “adventure club” of sorts. However, they clearly do try to lure unsuspecting people into the fractals.

But nothing shows they profited from it.

Simplicity.7208:

I’d love to also know how Dessa is involved with the Inquest for example.

She isn’t. Her old krewe members joined the Inquest, she didn’t.

Dessa: Thaumanova? I’ve got friends on that krewe, and from what I understand, it’s not a safe place to visit. Or work.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists_%28story%29

Simplicity.7208:

However, “breach” normally means an incursion through some form of defenses from an outside force. See; silverwastes. Our defenses breached by the mordrem.

Think asura and use the full: what can be breached to bring down a giant floating cube?

Power sources.

The generator for the city’s power got breached, causing it to lose its levitation, thus falling.

Simplicity.7208:

Furthermore, if it was a golem uprising that wiped out all the asura, why are there no golems other than the five cat golems? Furthermore, why are they not hostile towards the raving asura?

There are many potential explanations. Such as the hostile golems moving on, being wiped out by harpies, or other things.

We know from the ambient dialogue that not all golems were intrisiquely hostile – it wasn’t a Terminator situation – but that they refused to listen to asuran orders and had general free will. It was closer to a slave revolt than a ‘kill all biological beings!’ situation based on the little dialogue we have.

So not all golems would have been hostile to the raving asura.

It’s also possible he built those golems after the uprising, thus they were not part of it.

Lots of possibilities.

Simplicity.7208:

It’s possible that the raving asura is Dessa’s father. It didn’t ever really occur to me that he could be significantly older than Dessa. However, at the same time, it seems quite random that the devs would throw out a specific piece of lore about Dessa’s boyfriend if her boyfriend wasn’t significant in some way. However, I grant it could very well just be a tool to establish Dessa’s negative feelings towards the consortium.

I never really put much stock into it since in the very same release, another female asura researcher (Levvi) also mentioned having had a boyfriend who now worked for the Consortium (Blingg).

It felt more like a theme the writers had at the time than anything else – ex boyfriends joining a cheat of a company.

Dessa could be using “lost” in many ways. She could mean that he literally disappeared. She could mean that the Consortium hired assassins to have him killed (like they tried to do to Canach). She could mean that the Consortium drove him into debt which led him to suicide. Or she could mean that the Consortium drew him into a project and slowly changed his personality by putting him into jobs that start morally sound but the deeper you go the more immortal the jobs become (a common trope for law firm stories).

Simplicity.7208:

It’s named Uncategorized. E.g. this fractal is different in some way to all of the other historical events we experience. If this were a previous observatory, it would make sense that it couldn’t be categorized into some classification of historical event. Why would it be called uncategorized if it were just a historical recreation of a golem uprising?

Given how she reacted, it’s not something she enjoys working with. She may want to avoid it, or otherwise find it difficult to simply “put a label on it” which would, to the psyche, be the same as objectifying it.

If it is something of importance to her, then labeling it “broken city fractal” would be the same as distancing herself from it, and ignoring all her emotions – and by my theory, her motivation. Effectively, she may see the act of labeling it like the others an act of dehumanizing herself (deasuranizing?).

Snow.2506:

Hope I don’t sound condescending, just wanting to educate.

You didn’t sound condescending until that. :P

Yashuoa.9527:

Will my choice have any influence on the story btw?

Yes, but I won’t go into details without spoiling too much. Suffice it to say you will see a family member and their appearance will alter based on your choice. Further, you will meet said family member later on during the Orr arc if you choose the Vigil’s plan to invade it.

Yashuoa.9527:

I am probably not gonna pick Elona, because I am not gonna choose the Order of Whispers on this one (already have that order on another character) and they have an unknown way of travelling and communication with Elona. Or I might do.

Choosing Elonian (or any other nationality) has no affect on your order.

Yashuoa.9527:

Canthan are a bit of an Asian looking human nation right?

Yes, though some Canthans – the Luxon and Kurzicks – take on aspects from elsewhere, such as gothic gemanic (Kurzicks) and ancient Greek (Luxons). Cantha’s three human cultures are largely a mixture of many cultures, more than any other human culture in GW. Which I think is why people love it so much.

Yashuoa.9527:

I am considering to answer Krytan (Shining blade Krytan if that is eventually possible or if it remains unknown what type of Krytan you are).

Shining Blade is an organization within the nation of Kryta, so it isn’t really a “type of Krytan” at all.

Yashuoa.9527:

I read that King Alberdern was not the next in line for the thrown, yet he is descended from king Doric.
Who was the next in line for the thrown?

Duke Barradin.

Yashuoa.9527:

Anyway, could you please describe a bit of what the Krytan, Elona, Canthan and Acalonian are about (cultures, identities, environment, looks), so that I can choose the one that fits my identity the best?

Ascalon was a war-based nation due to its conflicts with the charr. They were established in 100 BE but fell in 1090 AE (1191 years established). It was the land where King Doric was actually crowned. Ascalonians were, as mentioned, constantly fighting the charr making them a grim people overall. In GW1, we saw the nation fall as the charr unleashed The Searing which burned the landscape and made the ground largely unusable. In response to the now-losing war, Prince Rurik took many Ascalonians west into Kryta for refuge. Shortly after GW1’s time, Adelbern unleashed the Foefire due to the charr constant encroaching armies, killing all remaining humans in Ascalon and turning them into never-ending ghosts, except for the recently established Ebonhawke that managed to be far enough out of reach of the spell. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ascalon

Kryta was the third Tyrian kingdom established, having been founded by King Mazdak who was King Doric’s son. For reasons unknown, Kryta was later colonized by Elona in 300 AE. During GW1’s time, the king fled the throne when the charr attacked which gave way for the White Mantle, puppets of the mursaat, to take leadership in a totalitarian krytocracy (religion-ran government) leaving those not supporting the White Mantle to be poor and living in thatched roofs (which was the majority of Kryta leading many folks to believe that “thatched roofs” was the norm for Kryta – it was, but only due to the White Mantle’s subjugations). GW1 saw the White Mantle overthrown and Salma put on the crown. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kryta

Cantha was an empire, not a kingdom, which reigned over two vassal states: the Luxon Armada and the Kurzick Houses. Cantha is the oldest known homeland to humanity, with Luxons and Kurzicks following suit, and in turn the most technologically advanced during GW1. Luxons and Kurzicks however have been at each others’ throats since the second emperor of Cantha, Yian Zho, placing their war to lasting over 1,500 years. In the end of GW1’s campaigns, Cantha was becoming xenophobic due to the plague caused by Shiro Tagachi’s return, which eventually led them to subjugate the Luxons and Kurzicks entirely, as well as commit genocide or exile all non-humans (including two tribes of tengu: Angchu and Sensali). Because many Canthans were going xenophobic, few left the land – most Canthans in Tyria are actually those who were locked out when Zhaitan rose, though some are descended from those who could not agree with the xenophobic leadership. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Cantha http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kurzick http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Luxon

Elona is a nation divided into three independent but mostly allied provinces: Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi. Each province has a different culture and government. Istan, situated on an island, is a naval based culture; Kourna is more militant, especially since Turai Ossa’s victory over Palawa Joko, and led by a Warmarshal; and Vabbi is a merchantile culture, led by whomever has the most wealth in the nation (Clansmarshals – though known also as Princes). In the past two centuries, Palawa Joko returned and waged war once more, enslaving the three provinces – conquering Vabbi and turning Kourna and Istan into vassal states of his living-and-undead empire. Refugees fled the land, with the last of them arriving 50 years prior to GW2. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Istan http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kourna http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Vabbi

Simplicity.7208:

The raving asura seems to understand he’s inside a fractal. “You can’t be here!” He knows something is wrong with your existence inside his fractal

I don’t read him as knowing he’s in a fractal. You’re taking his line out of context and, in addition, not even the full line (further taking it out of context). The full dialogue – including an oft-bugged but now fixed dialogue:

Raving Asura: Breach! Broken! Falling! Screaming! Dying!
Raving Asura: I couldn’t save them. I heard them all. Pleading. All gone. All on my watch!
Raving Asura: (manic screaming)
Raving Asura: All of us! Abandoned! You aren’t real. You can’t be here.

Something went wrong. He was in charge of others – perhaps a unit leader – and they all died. And he (and his team) were abandoned.

I don’t think the “you can’t be here” is part of “you can’t be in this fractal” so much as “I’m all alone, there is no one else here, I’m abandoned and no one will come to save me, ever.” Convinced he has been abandoned with no hope of rescue, when someone does come he believes them to be no more than a figment of his imagination.

Simplicity.7208:

This is complicated by the fact that Dessa’s observatory is marketed as a consortium “resort” and Dessa genuinely denies any association with the Consortium

The Fractals weren’t marketed as a resort.

During The Lost Shores, the Consortium in LA tried to connect their asura gate to the one on Southsun, however the one on Southsun was never completed due to the expedition team getting almost entirely wiped out (only known survivors are Owain and Canach). This trying-to-link-to-a-non-existing-gate caused an error that redirect the gate to the Fractals. The Consortium was establishing the gate that led to Fractals but was supposed to lead to Southsun as the resort.

Afterwards, the Consortium decided to make best of the situation and portrayed fractals as an adventurer’s chance at getting rich. But it wasn’t a ‘resort’.

Simplicity.7208:

Dessa also uses the same cat golems in her observatory as are found inside the Uncategorized fractal as mobs

Given that this is a very recent addition, I wouldn’t look to far into it. ArenaNet realized players love the cat golems, so they added more cat golems. From the fractal hub merchants to the miniatures.

Simplicity.7208:

So what do you all think happened to Dessa? Her observatory seems to be a fractal, just like the ones she’s supposedly studying. Stuck forever in a temporal loop. This would explain why mechanically fractals always repeat.

Well we know for a fact that fractals are stuck in a temporal loop – talking to Dessa explains this, actually, and further explains that the so-called ‘instabilities’ are actually just ‘hostiles’. Because fractals are in loops, they eventually ‘reset’ and they have to be ‘re-stabilized’ aka ‘cleared of all hostiles again’.

As for who Dessa is: I don’t think there’s going to be a big story about it unless she is tied to Uncategorized Fractal. As such, figure out Uncategorized and you figure out Dessa’s mystery.

One thing you missed about her knowing folks at Thaumanova: she mentions that her old krewe look different. This means the Dessa we know is not of modern times. Given her lack of knowledge about sylvari, we can say that 20 years have easily passed since the Mistlock Observatory fractal’s creation.

Simplicity.7208:

The consortium learned of her incursion to the mists and her revival of the fractal project. Seeing as someone else had already done all the work for them, they decided to help fund her research. They sent cat golems in to assist her krewe, much like they did with the first fractal observatory (hence why there are cat golems in uncategorized and the mistlock observatory). Dessa just assumed it was assistance from her friends in the Inquest.

This part of your theory doesn’t hold up because the Consortium have shown no recognition of the Fractals – either before or after the rebuilding of Lion’s Arch, and the fractal portal is now in the hands of the Mist Warriors in LA.

Dessa also doesn’t seem to acknowledge any outside help, before or after HoT, aside from the PCs.

Simplicity.7208:

However, the consortium is still a mercantile corporation seeking profits, so they decided to kill two birds with one stone; sell it as a tourist attraction to make profit and acquire unsuspecting victims to help Dessa further her research at the same time.

Except that they don’t do this.

Simplicity.7208:

So, what do you think?

Aside from the aforementioned, it’s a solid theory.

However, I’m having troubles believing the Uncategorized Fractal to “simply” be an earlier Mistlock Observatory. You wouldn’t be the first one to present such a theory – though the older theories put Dessa and the Raving Asura working together, with the asura being lost for xyz reason (an earlier expedition team as it were). But I just don’t think that’s the case – too much mystery being placed around it for it to be so… simple.

My present theory is that the Uncategorized Fractal is of an asura city (once) located in the Woodland Cascades. The asura had an established foothold in that area in GW1, though much smaller than their foothold in the Tarnished Coast, and Rata Sum isn’t the only giant cubical city we know (Rata Novus is one, albeit mostly buried underground). I suspect that Dessa and the Raving Asura comes from this city which was lost during the Great Golem Uprising of 1284 which we know little about but know enough to understand the basics of it – Rata Sum was nearly brought to destruction by it due to the golems rebelling against the asura, but it wasn’t restricted to Rata Sum as it was more widespread, and not all golems acted out violently either (there is dialogue where a golem pinned an asura to a signpost by his ears for asking for directions). This could explain the breach – the breach wasn’t external, but internal. The golems rebelled and killed everyone but the Raving Asura – or so the Raving Asura believes.

Dessa’s role in such depends largely on how old she was 20 years ago – the approximate time she would have gone to Mistlock Observatory – and during the Golem Uprising, 40 years ago. Her tie to the Raving Asura could be more than mere boyfriend – if she was a child during the uprising, the Raving Asura could be her father, for example, with the letter being a last will and good-bye letter to his daughter (we know that asura do care a lot for their family – even dysfunctional ones do).

I theorize that the Raving Asura was someone who was supposed to oversee people getting out on his watch to escape the golem uprising, and the city fell when the golems destroyed its reactor.

I further theorize that Dessa is attempting an indirect ‘resurrect lost love’ by use of fractals. She seems pretty direct with studying the nature of fractals and more importantly the nature of how the Mists creates and how it recreates the past. This has always seem a bit weird to me – the Mists connect all times and places, be it past, present, or future, yet in the Fractals all we see is the past. We know Dessa is studying it and even claims to have created some of the fractals.

I believe she created the Uncategorized Fractal in hopes of bringing back people from her past – mainly the Raving Asura – but it was a partially failed attempt, she didn’t go back far enough into the past in creating that fractal.

This is why not losing access to the fractals is so important to her – it’s not just a mere research opportunity, it’s the only means she knows to achieve her goals of seeing lost loved ones again. But by interacting and studying them for so long, she got stuck in that temporal loop that they are – or perhaps she created a fractal of herself so that she could continuously attempt to perfect her fractal experimentation, but it backfired by resetting her thoughts as well as her age.

Slowpokeking.8720:

The Pact was able to push into the Heart of DS even after the fleet was destroyed, which means it’s impossible for them to leave much forces in Orr. If there were armies of Risen left there is no way they could hold it.

And these weren’t some army in Arah, the heart of Orr and Zhaitan’s residence. All of these also got cleaned by the Pact soon after.

First off, there’s nothing that says the Pact couldn’t hold enough forces at Orr while assaulting Magus Falls. After all, while they were brand new and assaulting Orr, they were establishing a domain in the Far Shiverpeaks and fighting the FLame Legion – no doubt they also established themselves in the Dragonbrand, but we don’t see such given that all Dragonbrand-related maps are lower level than when the Pact’s formed (level 60) and thus ‘before the Pact’s time’.

Second off, you’re not reading the posts. I’m not saying there’s armies of risen in 1328 AE, when the Pact go off to fight Mordremoth. I’m saying there was still armies of risen in 1325 AE after Zhaitan’s death. In the 2-3 year timespan, the number of risen would have gone from “armies of risen” to “a large amount of scattered risen”.

Third off, you’re presuming that a leaderless hoard of mindless creatures is a true threat requiring large numbers of a united tactical and powerful force. You only need to establish a parameter for such a foe to keep them contained.

Fourth off, you presume the Pact is holding Orr. But as of Tequatl Rising (~1 year after Zhaitan’s death – whereas HoT is ~3), it was described as an ongoing invasion. This means that footholds are – just like during the fight with Zhaitan – being established and lost. The Pact’s purpose is to slowly eliminate the risen at that point, which means containment and not losing their own forces is top priority, not occupying the entire island.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Proof? The Pact was busy fighting other dragons as we know.

False. The Pact was preparing to take on Kralkatorrik. That preparation would be logistics and resource gathering. Not active combat.

Trahearne explicitly states at the end of the Personal Story that they’d have to hunt down the remaining risen, and Tequatl Rising one year after proves that the Pact are still combating the risen at that point.

But two years have passed since. And the Pact only began actively combating the Elder Dragons after The World Summit – until then it was just preparations for who to go after next (Kralkatorrik).

So let me throw your question back at you: do you have a source for the Pact actively fighting dragons prior to S2’s second half? After all, it is “as we know” so it shouldn’t be too hard for you to provide one.

Slowpokeking.8720:

And Arah was cleansed after Zhaitan’s death, Tequatl was killed as well.
These two are special cases. Arah was the heart of Orr and the Risen forces, they were cleansed soon after as well. Teq went into the deep and gathered strength, thus it could become a threat.

Arah wasn’t cleansed after Zhaitan’s death no more than the outskirts of Orr was. The cleansing of Orr would have been a slow process – as stated during The Source of Orr – which required ensuring Zhaitan and the risen didn’t recorrupt the places.

Tequatl was indeed killed, in 1326 AE, a year after Zhaitan, thus proving that even a year later risen were showing up in force outside of Orr.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Proof? From what we saw, the major forces of the Risen was taken down already in the war. Not to say the dragon was down as well.

What do you mean by “major forces”?

We took down the strongest minions and the minion factories, but we did not once encounter the armies marching on Elona or the risen forces on the Ring of Fire – both told to us to be happening from The Movement of the World.

We know there were forces we never saw. But what we don’t know is how large those forces are.

The only thing we know is that Zhaitan cannot create more risen. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that dragon champions – known for being capable of creating minions – cannot create more risen.

SirDrygan.1823:

Teq will always be there, because it’s event is timelocked.

Rox stated during Season 1 – in The Origins of Madness – that she, and many others, killed Tequatl. She even carried Tequatl’s tail around per Rytlock’s orders (which he then denied wanting).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Origins_of_Madness:_A_Moment's_Peace

Tom Gore.4035:

So 3 years since launch we killed the second dragon. With that timing, it would take 12 more years to kill the remaining 4.

I’m more worried the game will be dead before we even get to the last dragon.

I HIGHLY doubt the next expansion will take 3 years.

Keep in mind that the whole of Season 1 – a year and a half, give or take, after release – ArenaNet was continuously experimenting with how to do things. They wanted to avoid expansions and every four months – if not less – they changed how the releases and the story with the releases worked. Furthermore, Season 1 told two stories: the story of Scarlet Briar (aka Mordremoth’s rising) and the story of Ellen Kiel (aka the LA council).

Season 2 was the beginning of ArenaNet’s ’we’ve found where we want to be’ state, and it was not even half the length or Season 1.

At best guess, we can presume two seasons between expansions, but these seasons would take the length of Season 2 each, not Season 1 and Season 2 combined like many who cry the “three years per expansion” wail. Which means that – if each expansion has an 7 month post-Second Season development period, and each Season is the length of Season 2 minus the holiday break between E7 and E8 – we’re looking at ~6 months per season, with a 2 month mid-season break, and a 7 month development period. In other words: 21 months per expansion release. Add in however much time there is between HoT and S3 – I’m going to guess S3 begins in January or February until further notice, due primarily to upcoming holiday break in December. So functionally it would be 2-3 break, just like the mid-season break.

In other words: an expansion every 2 years, not 3, with 2 permanent lead-up arcs (LW seasons) prior to it.

But personally, I would have rather had Season 2 be a part of the expansion, to make it feel fuller, even if it meant an extra half-year without content. If S3 is a non-dragon arc that ends with us going into a dragon arc, I wouldn’t mind the would-be S4 being part of the next expansion. But that’s personal opinion.

As for “12 years to take on all dragons” (becoming 8 years with above): you presume it’s one dragon per expansion – which would get mighty boring in all honesty, given that they just did the most interesting dragon plotwise (Mordremoth being the only dragon to sensibly communicate with us lesser beings, given that one of the lesser beings are his should-be minions). You also presume that we would go after all six dragons – I think it might be served best if we never go after Primordus.

I am expecting that the following plots to be:

S3: Semi-related filler (with raid being told to be ‘leads into next plot’ iirc, then it’ll be White Mantle) → S4: Leads into DSD (given ending of HoT + the dragons-from-tidal wave concept art coming with HoT) → Exp2: DSD → S5:Semi-related filler → S6: Leads into Jormag+Kralkatorrik → Exp3: Jormag+Kralkatorrik → S6: To new lands.

Which would place us finishing dragons in 2019, with Primordus ever lurking in the background, giving the devs reasons to have random dragon minions across the entire world.

Slowpokeking.8720:

So the pact left organized Risen Army behind, let them be able to regroup and corrupt the magical source again?

Arah dungeon didn’t have an army, just some remaining Risen and they were cleaned up in the process as well.

The Pact never left Orr. They reduced their forces there two years later when they established Camp Resolve, but they kept a presence in Orr.

And I would disagree that Arah explorable, which features six risen high priest champions, the oldest known risen (Giganticus Lupicus) which comes from the previous rise, and at least one (Wraithlord) if not five other risen champions with hundreds of risen – and this just what’s left in the city alone, let alone elsewhere in the country or even continent – is a mere ‘some remaining risen’.

Keep in mind that aside from moving north, Zhaitan was pushing his army to patrolling to the Ring of Fire and invading southeast into Elona. That’s a lot of risen we never see that the Pact would slowly clean up.

Slowpokeking.8720:

If the Risen army is still large, how could the Pact hold it if the main force has left?

Because two years have passed for the Pact forces – in large – to lower the risen population from when we last saw it.

They didn’t disappear immediately – but that doesn’t mean that two years later they’re just as large of a force as we saw immediately after Zhaitan’s death.

Slowpokeking.8720:

He didn’t say it would take a long while, but the remaining Risen on Tyria, not Orr, would be slowly get cleaned up.

Last I checked, Orr was in Tyria too.

And Arah explorable mode does take place after Zhaitan’s death. As does Tequatl Rising – which means that even a year after Zhaitan’s death, the risen were still assaulting Sparkfly Fen.

How many risen there are since then is largely unknown. As is the progress of Orr’s cleansing. All we know is that there were a LOT remaining immediately after Zhaitan’s death – both in and outside Orr – and that they continued to fight and function as if Zhaitan lived. However, given that Zhaitan didn’t live, the source of their corruption – thus all corruption that they can spread – is a limited amount that’s ever dwindling as more risen are killed.

The Order of Whispers was only in Elona during GW1. The GW1 heroes did not establish it. Though that doesn’t mean they didn’t help them expand into Tyria and, no doubt, Cantha.

It’s not stated directly, no, but you can get an estimate. Unfortunately, I believe that her age was effectively retconned when Braham was introduced.

• Norn are known to live a long time, so appearances isn’t everything. She may look to be mid-aged or younger for a human, but keep in mind that norn can be 120 years old and still fighting well. Forgal? He was alive and a fighter during the siege on Port Stalwart which happened in 1229 AE making him well over 100 years old.
• Just about everyone except Knut Whitebear calls her an old woman both in Edge of Destiny and in the personal story.
• There was dialogue during the BWEs in the Lost Heirloom storyline (I haven’t seen it since so it was probably removed) which mentioned that Eir grew up with Krennak the Short, who in turn was said to be one of the first folks to establish a homestead outside Hoelbrak after the norn fled south. I think one involved line mentioned that Eir was a kid when Hoelbrak was still being built. Which would make her pretty kitten old.

Given this, I would have said she is in her 70s-80s by the time we know her. We don’t know how long Hoelbrak was under construction, however, but I can’t imagine that the norn wouldn’t make homesteads outside of Hoelbrak for over a century, as an example.

However, Braham’s father considered her a young woman when she had Braham. I wouldn’t call someone in her 50s or 60s – even a norn – young. Hence the statement of apparent retcon.

But since her age was never technically mentioned, and all indications of her age other than being called old was removed with the official release…

Argon.1563:

Its also never stated how her husband died, and to top it all off, we don’t even know how old or when her father died, so we can’t figure out her age using that.

We know how Braham’s father/Eir’s husband died. It was in the short story.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Braham's_Story

But the rest is right. She is the most enigmatic character from Destiny’s Edge – I would argue even more so than Rytlock.

She died before the answers around her past could be given. And for what? Some pathetic character development of a whiny character.

I think this would be a good idea as it would help sell the idea ArenaNet is pushing for a “living, breathing world”.

It would also help sell how long the storylines take by changing the maps they take place in. Like if the PS chapters 1 and 2 use the ‘spring’ maps, then chapters 3,4 and 5 use the summer maps, then chapters 6, 7, and 8 use the ‘fall’ maps, it shows that the personal story was based throughout most part of the year.

Having weather forms for each map, with events and spawn changes based on the weather, would be awesome too. For example every 40 minutes there’s an RNG chance per ‘seasonal map’ for various weathers – summer could have options like ‘very dry and hot’ which causes fire elementals/embers to spawn and some put-out-fire based events to trigger, a ‘normal afternoon’ which would be like what we have now, a ‘light rain’ which doesn’t change much but has a drizzle appearance, then ‘heavy thunderstorm’ which causes sparks and air elementals to spawn out of control.

However, the amount of resources it would take to do this is no doubt staggering. So I doubt they’d do it.

Matt Dragontamer.3506:

I tried to find a post about this, but yet to have found one.

My sister and I both bought Nodes for our Home Instances.
Today, we entered my instance, farmed the nodes and left for her instance.
We found the nodes in her instance the used form.
Aren’t they suppose to be available for harvesting?
We also made sure it was the particular person to start their Home Instance, as well as trying to enter alone.

Please tell me that her spent 50 Laurels and 30 Gold wasn’t a waste!?

Home instance nodes are per node per account regardless of who’s instance.

It wasn’t really a waste, because while you can’t double up how much you gather, you don’t have to always party up for her to get her daily gathering done. So if there’s a day where she’s playing and you’re not, she can go in and gather if she wants to.

Kraggy.4169:

I’ve never got the usefulness of these things, given the cost, especially in a game where nodes are per-player and so you’re not competing with others to get them.

Sprocket and Quartz are worth getting since their supply outside the home instance is highly limited.

Basic Cloth is worth getting too because the price of cloth. Basic wood too, given the price of T2 and T3 wood. But I wouldn’t get them unless you have spare gems from, say, achievement point rewards. Arguably the T6 nodes (ancient wood and orichalcum and maybe the plants) are worth getting too, but with HoT giving more such nodes – including rich orichalcum nodes – I don’t think it’s worth it personally.

The rest aren’t really worth getting IMHO.

The Personal Story had some good points. Mainly, it was that each plot was convincing, and most of the NPCs felt like developing or developed characters. Mostly. By which I mean 95% of the time give or take.

But it had a lot of bad points too. You move on to a completely different storyline too fast, and completely ignore past storylines once they no longer matter. The mechanics are dull. The cinematics in the rare cases there are real cinematics and not the two-characters-side-by-side (which while not bad… there’s a lot of story steps where they’d be greatly improved by switching those out with HoT’s open world dialogue) are often bland, boring, and buggy. And the story instances were too short.

The good and bad points effectively switched around with Season 2. But one thing remains consistent, and this is a bad thing: it’s too rushed.

CureForLiving.5360:

Do you have a source for that? I mean did they specifically say ‘big role’ or is that a community addition?
With the communication being so few and infrequent there isn’t much room for clarification, so players might assume things.

“Leah also said that the Mordrem Guard and the Nightmare Court are separate factions, and joining up with Mordremoth isn’t necessarily in line with the court’s ideals. She hinted that players can look forward to seeing this explored in the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns storyline.”

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-mordrem-guard-on-points-of-interest-a-summary/

Only mention I see. However, that “explored” turns out to be three NPCs, two of which are in one story instance and the third is in one place in Dragon’s Stand.

Not much ‘exploration’ there to be honest.

Hannelore.8153:

Its the Blighting Trees. There’s five of them I believe, and then the.. Heart of Thorns tree is nearly an exact copy of the Pale Tree just highly corrupted.

The Heart of Thorns tree is actually a corrupted version of the various withered and eaten-out ancient trees found through Magus Falls (such as the one next to the ogre camp), which I believe are Stonewood trees – old and very, very, very huge trees we saw a handful of in GW1.

There’s these such trees all over the Magus Falls, but so hollowed and eaten out that and so freakin huge that we don’t even realize that the cave we’re walking in is a moss-covered fallen over tree.

Hannelore.8153:

Malyck’s tree is likely further west than Auric Basin, but not by much. Since his Sylvari didn’t have a dream, they would’ve already been Mordrem Guard sadly. The Dream and Nightmare are what protect from dragon corruption.

The river Malyck comes from ends at The Falls unless he fell down that – but even that seems to just pool up now, making the river ending at Tangled Depths. If we haven’t seen his tree as a Blighting Tree then it’s east of Tangled Depths, most like.

As for becoming Mordrem Guard – while the Dream and Nightmare are said to act as protection, they’re also how Mordremoth attacked the sylvari too. Hence the final mission. So there’s a good chance that because there was no telepathic connection to the sylvari, there was no Mordrem Guard making.

Mind you, this would also mean that they could be more directly corrupted like the Mordrem Thornhearts – making those of Malyck’s tree not Mordrem Guard, but mordrem.

The Mordrem Guard don’t seem to be actually corrupted, given the one we talk to who acts much like Canach in the Rata Novus instance, where Canach mentions the voice is weak so far deep.

On the other hand though, if we have seen Malyck’s tree, then it’s the one in southern Auric Basin.

We know souls in GWverse are magic. They can be consumed (such as by demons) and used as a energy source.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Shouldn’t most of the Risen army collapse due to the dragon’s death?

If you paid attention during the final cinematic of the Personal Story, as well as the fact that Arah explorable dungeon takes place after Zhaitan’s death, you’d know that dragon minions do not fall when their master does.

This isn’t The Avengers where an organic army crumples down just because they lost contact with their mothership.

So no.

Slowpokeking.8720:

If the Risen navy is wiped out, doesn’t it mean we can go to Elona and Cantha now?

There’s more threats in Tyria to bother sending an expedition to a location that might potentially open hostilities.

Plus there’s the deep sea dragon still being a threat.

CureForLiving.5360:

I wonder of Palawa Joko can usurp Zhaitan’s position? I mean the Risen seem leader less and we’re talking about an undead lich here, so if he could control the Awakened why not the Risen?

Despite continuously being called undead, the risen are NOT undead. They’re dragon minions – most are downright mindless, and all are brainwashed. They lack free will, because their will is Zhaitan’s will. Even post-mortem.

It would be like asking why an elementalist cannot take control of icebrood.

I don’t think the “spike and fall” is related to the Elder Dragons’ mental or moral states. The Elder Dragons, according to A Study in Gold, seek to consume all magic in the world, but there being six means that they can’t – without causing themselves to go into hibernation from starvation. It’s a simple case of too many apex predators in a region, resulting in the region (in this case the world) to run out of the predators’ food sources.

Unlike most predators, however, the Elder Dragons don’t have the option of moving to a place with more food, but they do have the option of letting food regrow without eating – this is what they do to hibernate.

By all appearances, despite the lack of interaction the Elder Dragons are actually rivals, each trying to consume magic to gain power and remain active. The lore we have from Elder Dragons – not just Mordremoth – imply that they believe themselves to be the ‘true state of Tyria’ (in The Source of Orr, the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan calls us poisoners for trying to cleanse Orr), and imply if not explicitly show that they seek to remain awake (too many risen have lines of Zhaitan’s eternal rule to believe Zhaitan wants to lower magic just to go back to sleep).

People keep assuming that the Elder Dragons are a natural part of Tyria’s balancing cycle in their entirety. But this isn’t necessarily true – while The All does have 6 bodies of power in balance and the Apostate mentions a theory that taking them out of balance would result in the world collapsing (metaphorically), there are two things that’s often overlooked:

1. The six bodies of power are not necessarily the Elder Dragons. In the same instance we learn about The All, Hidden Arcana, there is a generically named Priory norn who mentions that we don’t know what the bodies of power represent, only that they’re are somehow tied to the Elder Dragons. That particular scholar theorizes that they are spirit realms of sorts. My theory is that they are ‘forms of magic’ – basically, the two domains that the Elder Dragons have rule over.
2. We don’t know what would happen if we take Elder Dragons out of the equation entirely. While Ogden does state that ‘too much magic and the world falls to chaos’ during Hidden Arcana, the question is: does all magic in Tyria and the Elder Dragons equate “too much”? And even if the answer is yes, can we avoid the Apostate’s theoretical/metaphorical scenario if we simply find a different means of taking magic out (e.g., another Bloodstone or two) and avoid such an apocalyptic scenario?

PopeUrban.2578:

Fascinating stuff, but I’ve been unable to corraborate your evidence for an alliance between the mursaat, seers, dwarves, and jotun.

You’ve never done Arah dungeon, have you? Go in and talk to the scholars, particularly Randall Greyston, you don’t even have to do the dungeon path.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_%28explorable%29

What can you tell me about the Seers?

Randall: Not much is known. They were an elder race, alive when the Elder Dragons first awoke. They allied with the Forgotten, the dwarves, the jotun, and the mursaat to resist the Elder Dragons and survived.
PC: Weren’t the Seers and the mursaat enemies?
Randall: Indeed. They worked together once, but the mursaat betrayed the other races and fled from the world, returning as the Unseen Ones.

PopeUrban.2578:

As far as I can tell there’s no real evidence regarding why the mursaat/seers went to war in the first place, but the common assumption is that the mursaat were the agressors.

Pretty much. We don’t know the why – not directly at least – but we know the when. And that when was “during the previous dragonrise”.

There was an alliance, and as found during the mursaat path of Arah, the mursaat had the strongest weapon and defense against the dragon minions. However, for reasons unstated, the mursaat betrayed the other races, nearly wiped out the seers, and fled the world.

PopeUrban.2578:

I’d also like to note that there’s no evidence that the mursaat ever actually had a tyrian civilization. A real possibility exists that the seers settled tyria in an effort to flee a mursaat controlled plane, and it worked for a time, until the mursaat found them in tyria.

They had fortifications and cities in GW1’s time. They were in an alliance with the other elder races fighting the ED. That’s evidence enough for a Tyrian civilization.

And nothing says they originate from the Mists, but fled there. You don’t flee to your origin, you return.

PopeUrban.2578:

They needed that magic (which they perhaps brought or somehow manufactured) in order to fight the mursaat, which caused, unexpectedly, the EDs to rise.

The Bloodstone was created while the Elder Dragons were awake – per Randall Greystone, lead scholar on seers, and A Study in Gold, which documents a speed by an ancient Forgotten – in order to counter the Elder Dragons. The magic in the Bloodstone was natural Tyrian magic. Not brought or manufactured (as far as we know, there is no method of making magic – it is a stable but finite resource which merely changes location: within the world, within a dragon, within artifacts).

adormtil.1605:

Well the exalted awoke after Glint died they said that so what did they do for so many years?
Mordremoth awoke 1 year ago what did they do against him? They did not even activate the pillars.
Are you telling me that the mouth of mordremoth was not attacked to allow the hero to find a certain person.You know as a distraction?

They didn’t wake immediately after she died. Waking up 7 years after Glint died is still waking after Glint died.

The blog post makes it clear that Mordremoth woke before the Exalted did:

“Unfortunately, Scarlet Briar had already awakened Mordremoth, and the Jungle Dragon’s colonization of Maguuma was well underway. The Exalted discovered the jungle was even more dangerous than they remembered and that allies they had made among Maguuma’s residents were missing, perhaps gone forever. Worst of all, they found an implacable and voracious horde of dragon minions eager to seize as much magic as they could for their master.”

However, they also awoke before the Pact Fleet was decimated:

“The Exalted watched with sadness and horror as Mordremoth destroyed the Pact fleet, and some even wondered if their august duty was doomed to fail just as it was truly getting started.”

We don’t have an exact date for when they woke up, but we know it was after the climax of Season 1 and before the climax of Season 2.

Given that the Zephyrites’ duty known only to the four Masters was to deliver the egg when the Exalted awoke, this means that they likely awoke between the time of S1 and S2, when the Zephyrites returned to Tyria to resupply before heading west.

They didn’t activate the pillars because they couldn’t! The activation of the pillars was triggered by the egg. Replay Prized Possessions – NPCs state the ruins began to glow when Caithe with the egg passed by, and at the end you take the egg into the center of the northwatch outpost which activates it completely.

Why they had it set up that way is anyone’s guess, however.

And yes, I’m telling you the Mouth wasn’t attacked to allow the Commander to find Destiny’s Edge. The Mouth was attacked because the Mouth IS Mordremoth’s physical body. It was the goal of the entire campaign.

The Commander went on his own, without any communication with Laranthir or other Pact leaders to find Destiny’s Edge. It simply led the Commander to the same location the Pact was heading: Mordremoth. And this is not surprising. But the one and only indication of some grand battle taking place is during the final story step, in which we’ve been in the heart of enemy territory before the Mouth of Mordremoth battle takes place – Mouth of Mordremoth battle happens at the same time as Hearts and Minds, leaving Bitter Harvest story step to be happening before the assault of Dragon’s Stand.

capitalizm.2046:

There, 6 orbs representing the Elder Dragons revolve around the Pale Tree. A second later, the green orb hits the center, and then vines are everywhere. Marjory thinks that the revolving machinary is Tyria, and that the Pale Tree is at the heart of it. The Elder Dragons revolve around the her, and she is independent from them.

This is wrong on two accounts:

First, as shown during Hidden Arcana, the central gold orb is Tyria, not the Pale Tree.

Second, Marjory thinks Scarlet’s sketched depiction of The All is Tyria with the Pale Tree at its heart because she doesn’t know what it represents and thinks “the Pale Tree is the center of a sylvari’s world” because it’s the most important thing to them. She thinks the sketch is metaphorical, not literal, and thus interprets a metaphorical meaning.

As we see in the vision, and know from the short story, the Pale Tree was more of Scarlet’s entryway to view The All – she had to bypass the Pale Tree to see it. The Pale Tree, when confronted by a non-sylvari, suspects that the vision we saw was (part of) the vision Scarlet Briar saw.

capitalizm.2046:

We learnt later that Sylvari were meant to be minions of Mordremoth. Some came to think of the Pale Tree as another rogue Dragon champion, similar to Glint. In that case, Mordremoth would have created the Pale Tree. How could Tyria function before the Pale Tree’s creation, without its heart? There would be nothing for the Elder Dragons to revolve around.

So who came first, the Dragon or the Tree? If the Tree exists before the Dragons, how can Mordremoth control Sylvari with such ease? Is the green orb Mordremoth? Did the green orb “usurp” the Pale Tree? That must be a monumental event; did it happen in the past or the future?

As mentioned the Pale Tree is barely 250 years old. The seed that became the Pale Tree was planted between the events of Prophecies and Eye of the North. There was an 8 year timespan for the planting to happen.

The Elder Dragons have existed for thousands upon thousands of years. Depending on when the last awakening was (some lore implies ~10,000 BE, other lore imply ~2,000 BE), they could be at minimum 30,000 years old, or 9,000 years old (3 awakening cycles with cycles being either 10,000 years or 3,000 years).

So who came first? The Elder Dragons.

adormtil.1605:

Yes the freaking dragon was up for a year or so until the pact got there what where they doing they where hiding in their city. They only became active after glints egg got to the specific place.

They weren’t hiding. They were hibernating. There is a difference.

And they would have become active without the Commander – because they awoke when Caithe arrived, not when the Commander arrived. And they began fighting mordrem the moment they woke.

You are right about the Itzel and Nuhoch, adormtil, but you’re wrong about the rest. The Commander didn’t really lead the Pact – he just helped them pick up the pieces, and helped the wounded leave. And even that is only if you count the open world events as the Commander acting and not hundreds of random adventurers acting.

adormtil.1605:

Why do you think the event at Dragon’s Stand happened? They attacked the mouth for no reason?

They didn’t attack the Mouth of Mordremoth because the Commander ordered it. They did it because that was the task they went into the jungle to do. The hylek joined in because it would save their home and their people. The Exalted joined in because it was their duty they signed up for.

The Commander didn’t really unite them. The Commander just gave everyone the chance to unite themselves with their already-shared goals (reasons differing).

draxynnic.3719:

On the mention of the heroes returning for an attempt to kill Glint in Edge of Destiny: I’ve always considered that to be a reference to the bonus, since I don’t think the bonus was earned by many people who were going through before the release of Factions with full parties of characters that only had the skills that were available at that point in the storyline without doing the Drok’s Run. In order to succeed, you had to come back with skills and knowledge that weren’t available to the heroes at the canonical time of their first audience. The concept of going back as part of the cancelled Beyond storyline is an interesting one, though – it’s possible that they’d planned for Glint to prevent the survival of Ascalon somehow (because she’d foreseen that a charr victory was necessary for the fight against the dragons to succeed) and the heroes found out about it and confronted her.

While I would agree at first thought, there is a line that most overlook which makes me think it was a canceled Beyond storyline.

The first line that most focus on is (page 338):
“Three hundred years ago, I welcomed heroes such as yourselves, hailing them as the Chosen who would destroy the titans and save the world. But did they remember? Did not the very heroes I sent return to battle me again?”

But the line I focus on is on the next page (page 340):
“But three hundred years ago, the dragons’ bellies were empty, and their minds were awakening. Three hundred years ago, the sons of men fought me before they understood that I was their ally.”

This line tells us four things:

1. The Elder Dragons were awakening (which we first saw happen in Eye of the North).
2. The ‘sons of men’ (aka humans) knew of the Elder Dragons, if only loosely.
3. The humans fought Glint.
4. The humans knew Glint was tied to the Elder Dragons – for they thought she was their enemy, as Destiny’s Edge did.

When you combine the two and see that both are referred to happening 300 years ago, you get the notion that the ‘sons of men’ in the latter are the heroes from the former.

In other words: after the events of GW1, some humans found out Glint’s ties to the Elder Dragons and attacked her thinking she was fooling them all along, just like those in this thread.

Most likely, these humans are tied to the Order of Whispers, who in The Movement of the World are explicitly stated to have known of the Elder Dragons before anyone else (“The first to discover the awakening of the dragons—in Orr, and elsewhere—the Order was aware that nobody would believe them.”), but given the first sentence are likely to include the Chosen (aka Prophecies heroes).

Which implies the Elona arc, which we knew was to be after Winds of Change, had been written out by the end of Winds of Change, but was canceled from development for 2012 due GW2 hitting final production, and was not restarted due to lack of players in GW1.

jazzbat.7432:

Is it safe to assume that, when the Exalted did so, it was when the area was still lush with jungle and tropical life? Would, when the Exalted when to sleep, it still been considered Silverwood?

Not all golden structures come from the Exalted. The Exalted use the Forgotten’s magic and spells. The Forgotten made golden structures first – see Gilded Hollows.

And these structures are very similar – particularly the Inner Chamber of Tarir – to the structures known as Hall of Ascension (in Crystal Desert) and Hall of Heroes (in the Mists).

I doubt this is a coincidence.

But yes, the structure in the cave would have been made while the place was a lush jungle.

jazzbat.7432:

And speaking of that, does anyone have a rough estimate as to when the Exalted DID go to sleep? I’ve heard some pretty conflicting things as, while they woke when Glint’s legacy returned, they did mourn Glint’s death, but they also went to sleep before her death? I’m a little lost on that front.

That’s a typo in at least two location, that they slept after she died. An oversight and lore discrepancy error by the devs.

They went to hibernation before Rata Novus fell, and it fell approximately 155 years prior to HoT – that being 1173 AE.

jazzbat.7432:

And as for the Cavern specifically, is anything else known about it? The entrance to Bloodstone Fen seems to line up directly atop it, comparing the maps, but not having played GW1 before, I’m not sure if that has any significance. Was/is it THE entrance to Bloodstone Fen, or just a coincidence, or?

The cave is east of Bloodstone Fen. Not too far, but not very close. Either way, if it was made for Glint’s legacy like Gilded Hollows and Tarir, then it would have been made post-GW1.

I don’t think there’s any significance, given that the Bloodstone is entirely ignored, with the place the bloodstone at being completely avoided despite having locations on its west, east, and southern edges.

Rather odd they’re trying so kitten hard to ignore it…

jazzbat.7432:

As a side note, I do find it interesting that a lot of the plant life (life?) and the boulders and cliffs in The Sealed Cavern are made of gold similarly to the Exalted structures. But that doesn’t seem to reflect at all in Tarir or Auric Basin. Any thoughts on that?

I noticed this as well. Tarir has actual plantlife in it.

To me this indicates the potential that it is a bit more ancient. The plants being golden too is very similar to the The Wealdwood in appearance. This might be how the Forgotten made the golden structures – and as shown there, the magic isn’t corruptible to Orr. And when the Inquest put the golden magic into a golem, some interesting lines come about… “Must—protect—Orr.”

Diovid.9506:

Also hard to say. The general consensus seems to be that the Exalted were created about 200 years ago (unlike what the blog post says). We know that the area dried out somewhere in the past 250 years.

Diovid.9506:

There are conflicting sources on that, indeed. However, like I said, the general consensus seems to be about 200 years ago. They might’ve started mourning the moment they woke up and learned of her fate.

You seem to place the consensus for their creatione and their hibernation to be the same. This isn’t so! (Edit: Noticed you caught yourself on that)

They went into hibernation at any point before Rata Novus fell, but were definitely active after Rata Novus was a city – this would place them being awake some point between ~10 years after GW1 to ~100 years after GW1.

There is one Exalted that shares name and country of origin with a GW1 character, Herta, so if they’re the same then the origin of the Exalted may be closer to GW1 than mere 200. The consensus is “approximately 200” – in other words “after GW1, but not very long after”.

So we don’t really know when the Exalted – or Rata Novus – came to be. Just a case of “after GW1”, but we know when Rata Novus fell, and we know the Exalted went into hibernation before this. We also know they went into hibernation after the creation of the Zephyrites, which happened when the Brotherhood of the Dragon was near gone – which could happen no later than ~200 years before GW2 (the dwarves all undergoing the Rite of the Great Dwarf ~50 years after Eye of the North).

In other words their point of creation is somewhere between 1080 AE and 1120 AE. Their point of hibernation is somewhere between 1120 AE and 1173 AE.

jazzbat.7432:

Alright! That helps. Forgotten are something I’ve not exactly looked too far into—Although, revisiting their wiki page:

If you don’t know the source, don’t be so fast to trust the wiki. In this case, it’s off for sure.

The wiki can be edited by anyone, so incorrect alterations happen time to time. Take the wiki as a guideline unless it’s quoting dialogue or other verbatim text. And lore summaries are not so. I can go in to that article and fix it just to make my point, as I often do, but I’ll probably do that later.

There is lore mishap – in that two source hint that the Exalted went into hibernation post-Glint’s death – but that wiki statement isn’t one.

jazzbat.7432:

Oh boy. 100 years, 200 years, or 300 years. Who knows. Unless the Forgotten did create the Exalted, or began to create them, over 300 years ago, up until the point of ~100 years ago when they mosied over to Maguuma to create Tarir?

The Exalted went into hibernation before Rata Novus fell, and Rata Novus fell approximately 155 years ago.

draxynnic.3719:

About half of that paragraph looks like somebody made it up without any backing from ingame or reputable out-of-game sources, although given that HoT hasn’t been out for that long it’s possible that I haven’t found all the relevant information.

The only thing I see other as an issue than the year typo is the Forgotten leaving Tyria. We only know they “disappeared”. It’s left ambiguous but worded to sound as if they died out, not left.

The rest is just… general writing. Not entirely wrong, but implies there’s more than there is.

draxynnic.3719:

That said, there are also inconsistencies, such as the Last Forgotten mentioning Glint’s death – although that could be explained by Glint having foretold that she would die before the Exalted awoke, and thus the speech of the Last Forgotten was given on the basis of that being the case.

There’s also a generically named Exalted Sage that if you speak to after doing City of Hope tells you that Glint died “hundreds of years” after the Forgotten broke her from Kralkatorrik’s control. But ambiguous that is, the Sage’s next line is a blatant inconsistency:

Once she was gone, they gathered her most loyal human allies and tested them to see which could be Exalted.

So according to this Exalted Sage, the Exalted came to be… in the last 8 years.

Which is dreadfully wrong. At best, that’s when they began to awaken – as that’s said to be when Glint’s egg went into stasis, during Hidden Arcana.

Jaken.6801:

To be honests, I don`t expect too much lore here, simply because ANet likes to cater to a broader audience with their product and if crucial parts were hidden behind the elite content, then it would cut off too many people, who would like to enjoy the story.

They did this throughout GW1 – remember Sorrow’s Furnace, Underworld (Dhuum!?), Fissure of Woe (Menzies!), Tomb of the Primeval Kings (lead in to Nightfall), The Deep (source of Oni and Outcasts), Domain of Anguish (source of titans, source of torment demons, oldest Margonite, Mallyx!), even Slavers’ Exile.

Why would they stop now?

Some of the most loved GW1 lore actually comes from elite areas.

@Thunderfall: I don’t think Jormag is ‘wills’. Every Elder Dragon removes their victims’ willpower in corruption. It’s a fundamental aspect of dragon corruption.

My theory is that Jormag is ice and souls, given Jormag’s interest in the Mists that began as early as Svanir, and given how some lines about the Sons of Svanir mention that their souls are corrupted.

@Fenom: Mordremoth does more in the way of ‘creation’ than Primordus does. Both of those dragons create minions from their corruption, ‘growing’ them in pools and pods.

I don’t see how Jormag is ‘temptation’ – rather, I get how you get it but Jormag does far more then tempt, and that’s merely a method of conversion. It would be like saying Kralkatorrik’s second sphere of power is ‘breath’ because that’s how he created the Dragonbrand – with his breath.

I also don’t get where you see ‘power’ in Kralkatorrik at all. His first sphere is unquestionably Crystal as that’s what he is – the Elder Crystal Dragon. Just like Zhaitan is the Elder Death Dragon, Jomrag is the Elder Ice Dragon, etc. etc. But as seen through Glint and the Dragonbrand (specifically the Brandstorm), Kralkatorrik also has a tie to sky. Sun, wind, and lightning are his second domain, which holds no connection to crystal at all.

Kralkatorrik actually corrupts in this domain – he used sun (fiery breath) most directly, but also lightning as well. He turned into a sandstrom which is a mixture of crystal and wind.

And I don’t think we can connect the DSD to anything. His only tie to water is that he’s surrounded by it and makes minions out of it. But unless his minions are like Mordremoth and Primordus – grown from corruption and not corrupted beings – then his creation of minions out of water is like Kralkatorrik’s creation of minions out of the landscape (Branded Earth Elementals as they’re called in-game, sadly lacking any branded appearance to this day).

@thunderfall&Fenom: Do dragons even have souls?

We’ve yet to see a sylvari soul, either.

@BuddhaKeks: Actually, titans don’t have a “come from” location. The Foundry of Failed Creations was just where The Fury made the titans seen in GW1’s time. But The Fury was the source, not the location, and The Fury was most likely not the only one who knew how to make titans, being a servant of Dhuum.

MissSinfully.2478:

Is anyone else wincing at the phrasing of “Katana Dagger” and “Katana Sword?”

It’s like saying sword-sword and sword-dagger. A dagger in that style is a tanto and the sword, depending on length is a Wakizashi or a Katana.

Belinda’s Greatsword on the other hand, is more resembling a “Zanbato” which is a fictional/fantasy sword that’s uber long. Translates to somewhere around “horse-slaying sword” or “horse-chopping sword.”

Zanbato swords are most commonly seen in fighting-style anime, highlighted most especially by Bleach.

Anywho, just wanted to know if anyone else winced when they read that.

Wincing? No.

Facepalming? Yes.

And I think Belinda’s sword counts as an Odachi

Edit: -sigh- at forums not being able to recognize non-American letters.

Endless Soul.5178:

As much as I loved my krewe in Guild Wars 1, I don’t ever see that happening in this game. It’s just not designed for them.

Pretty much this.

When GW2 was originally announced, and for quite some time after, there was supposed to be a ‘companion’ system. Which was basically for those who wanted to play solo you’d get a single NPC companion to play throughout the game with who would evolve as you level up and do more things. This was all to ensure you can beat the game solo.

They scrapped it for a reason.

Because gamble!

GAMBLE MAN! GAMBLE!

GamblegambleGamblegamblegamblegAmblegamBleGAmlegamblEGambLeAbmleagmbleagaMblgabmleGamblegAmBlEgamblegAmblegamBleGAmlegamblEGambLeAbmleagmbleagaMblgabmleGamblegAmBlEgamblegAmblegamBle
GAmlegamblEGambLeAbmleagmbleagaMblgabmleGamblegAmBlEgamblegAmblegamBleGAmlegamblEGambLeAbmleagmbleagaMblgabmleGamblegAmBlEgamblegAmblegamBleGAmlegamblEGambLeAbmleagmbleagaMblgabmle
GamblegAmBlEgamblegAmblegamBleGAmlegamblEGambLeAbmleagmbleagaMblgabmleGamblegAmBlEgamblegAmblegamBleGAmlegamblEGambLeAbmleagmbleagaMblgabmleGamblegAmBlEgamblegAmblegamBleGAmlegamblE

First raid boss actually does attribute to the trinity now that there is a viable healer and the Vale Guardian focuses primarily (if not solely) on the individual with highest toughness.

In my attempts, dodging felt second-nature and not mandatory… but then again I was playing necro and only my health bar didn’t go under 80% at every individual attack but only on frequent attacks.

Anyways, legendary gear is meant to be gated behind all content. The method of unlocking the first varies. For example, you have the fractal backpiece gated behind, you guessed it, fractals! You have original precursors’ new collections gated behind Central Tyria experience and doing second HoT story instance. The original legendaries gated behind core PvE maps and dungeons/PvP. The new HoT weapons are gated behind HoT PvE maps, with both having a soft-gate to WvW+PvP.

Seriously, can we stop the “omg the best gear is gated behind difficulty content” threads? They’re not gated just behind them. They’re gated behind a lot of things. You can’t get it from just WvW just like you can’t get standard legendaries from just doing Silverwastes all day long (purchasing from TP not counting)!

Isn’t that last link from the GW1 Tarnished Coast ruins + Central Transfer Chamber?

Creates an interesting thought. Though we know that Mordremoth’s design wasn’t made at that point (2007 art has him else how).