Rev/Ranger on medi trapper or symbolic menders or symbolic marauders?
Ammo suggestions:
1. cleanse ammo: cleanses from 5-7 conditions from allies in range
2. stab ammo: grants allies stability in range. Not sure how much it should be. 3-5 stacks?
3. protection ammo: grants allies protection in range. Maybe more than 33%? A special protection buff? Should only apply to power damage, since the cleanse ammo is for countering condis.
I don’t get the skill argument for treb.
If skill were so important for treb use, it would be used more often in higher tiers of pvp but it’s not. And the reason why it’s not used is because by the time you know how to use the treb properly, you’re more useful in a teamfight or a 1v1. Unless you’re a spirit weapon guard or a gs necro or something.
…that’s not why it’s unused in higher tiers.
It’s unused in higher tier because of the time it takes you away from the fights, and the effects and damage it deals is kitten easy to dodge. 1 trebber is not the equivalent of 1 player fighting with the team. In the time it takes for you to get to treb, and throw it, your team has been outnumbered for at least 20-30 seconds which is already risky enough. Your single shot every few seconds is not enough to make up for that.
But if you buff treb to the point it’s worth it enough for better players to go for, then it becomes OP in lower levels.
We’re saying the same thing but ok.
The solution might be to give the treb multiple ammo types that require communication and knowledge to use effectively so the value of the treb scales with the skill level of play. The ammo needs to be highly situational.
I don’t get the skill argument for treb.
If skill were so important for treb use, it would be used more often in higher tiers of pvp but it’s not. And the reason why it’s not used is because by the time you know how to use the treb properly, you’re more useful in a teamfight or a 1v1. Unless you’re a spirit weapon guard or a gs necro or something.
1K healing per second for how long? Your scenario supposes the use of healing skills in rapid succession, meaning, they have to be on cool down. How long does a dh have to be able generate 1k healing a second oncd all cds are back up?
Before it was “dh is trash”, “dh is the worst class in the game”, “kys if you die to dh”. Dh got the buff it needed now its “dh is broken”," dh is op"," anet why you do dis".
Dont you guys get tired.
Dh is fine. Unless you play thief, there shouldnt be a problem with dh. The way traps were designed is pretty silly but at least it doesnt break the class. It could have been much worse.
This post contains no factual arguments (I would not count ‘Dh is fine’ as one), but merely thinly veiled attacks against anyone who might not share your opinion.
To reiterate: balancewise, I see no reason why the healing available to DH on marauder should be literally 3 TIMES what the best builds the other professions with the same healthpool have.
How exactly is someone supposed to convince you to get better at playing your class based on fact? Dh is difficult to fight against but from my experience a good dh vs a good [insert class except thief here] will fight to pretty much a stalemate.
Before the buffs i said that if they buff dh (and they should) dh will be seen as broken because of traps. So many people reacted the same way you are reacting now, now look at the threads.
Im sure we can agree that DH is ony getting hate because of traps, so here is an excercise for you, check how many classes can avoid trap damage even after being pulled without the basic dodge and how often.
@Kuya, im very surprised you are part of this DH witchhunt. You were here when DH was often said to be completely trash because of its sustain. The sustain has been improved so if another class is lagging behind how is it DH’s fault? Ele is the way it is now because of bad development not because DH got an unfair buff.
I’m not really partaking in the witch hunt. I am extending an olive branch and recognizing that dh has many specs and amongst those specs there are a few that excell at punishing new players with little skill from the user. Such as a full trapper. I am willing to see such a spec nerfed to better the enjoyment of low tiers of play.
With that said, as you have seen yourself in this thread, even when a dh graciously accepts nerfs to noob stomping specs, still others demand that all dh specs must be nerfed, even the ones viable at higher levels of play such as symbolic and meditrapper. It seems some people get really irritated when they can’t kill something.
As i explained to you dear, the reason why it’s ok that a marauder guardian can heal more than a dps ele or a dps thf is becauze healing and blocking is how a dh defends against an encounter. A thf defends itself by using stealth and greater mobility. Ele is the only outlier that doesn’t have a lot of outs.
Good dp classes aren’t the full glass cannons that blow all their utilities to kill and end up helpless afterwards. That’s stuff for amber leagues and it’s why trap damage nerf might be justified.
A good dps class should be able to sustain itself at least in a 1v1. Rev and war are good self sufficient examples. Necro could be argued to possess that with shroud but it seems like it relied too much on a single mechanic to live. Ele needs a buff in the self sustain regard because it can dps just fine but its sustain when it goes dps is not good enough for higher tiers pvp where you expect your dps to take care of themselves.
Necro is the one exception since the condi dps is so good that a pocket engi is used to keep it viable at higher organized tiers.
First of all, ‘DEAR’, I merely pointed out that his post was just a blanket personal attack against anyone who does not share his opinion.
So the reaons for the insane difference in sustain is simply ‘healing and blocking is how a dh defends against an encounter’? This is not really different than saying ‘DH need to heal and block a lot because they need to heal and block a lot’. If there is an argument hidden in this statement, then I am failing to find it.
‘Good dp classes aren’t the full glass cannons that blow all their utilities to kill and end up helpless afterwards’. Which part of this statement addresses the huge sustain difference I calculated above?
I agree with you BTW that ele needs a buff, but as I mentioned before I don’t see new buffs to sustain since the devs are moving in the oppposite direction.
Most of your post is composed of blanket statements not directly addressing the question: Why should DH have triple the healing of the other professions with the same hp?
I already answered your question.
You not liking my answer is what’s going on here because you want dh sustain nerfed.
In other words, honey, your question is rhetorical. You’re not really interested in an answer. What you want is validation.
Now that i think about it, i do think necro sustain should be buffed but maybe doing it through shroud is not a good idea. It’s not conducent to good play to have a class rely on one utility to live, like a trapper guard spamming traps on point.
Instead maybe other utilities necros already have access to should be looked into to keep it from relying on scrappers.
I know there’s a trait that heals you from condi damage. Maybe make that work through shroud? Maybe increase the the % of healing when outside of shroud? Perhaps let shroud have access to shouts and shouts heal hps throug shroud? How about having necros siphon life from nearby enemies making them more sustainable when focused?
Before it was “dh is trash”, “dh is the worst class in the game”, “kys if you die to dh”. Dh got the buff it needed now its “dh is broken”," dh is op"," anet why you do dis".
Dont you guys get tired.
Dh is fine. Unless you play thief, there shouldnt be a problem with dh. The way traps were designed is pretty silly but at least it doesnt break the class. It could have been much worse.
This post contains no factual arguments (I would not count ‘Dh is fine’ as one), but merely thinly veiled attacks against anyone who might not share your opinion.
To reiterate: balancewise, I see no reason why the healing available to DH on marauder should be literally 3 TIMES what the best builds the other professions with the same healthpool have.
As i explained to you dear, the reason why it’s ok that a marauder guardian can heal more than a dps ele or a dps thf is becauze healing and blocking is how a dh defends against an encounter. A thf defends itself by using stealth and greater mobility. Ele is the only outlier that doesn’t have a lot of outs.
Good dp classes aren’t the full glass cannons that blow all their utilities to kill and end up helpless afterwards. That’s stuff for amber leagues and it’s why trap damage nerf might be justified.
A good dps class should be able to sustain itself at least in a 1v1. Rev and war are good self sufficient examples. Necro could be argued to possess that with shroud but it seems like it relied too much on a single mechanic to live. Ele needs a buff in the self sustain regard because it can dps just fine but its sustain when it goes dps is not good enough for higher tiers pvp where you expect your dps to take care of themselves.
Necro is the one exception since the condi dps is so good that a pocket engi is used to keep it viable at higher organized tiers.
No, i don’t see an issue with that. Guardian is the equivalent of a palladin class in other games, so that the menders symbolic build can heal itself for so much seems like exactly what guardian should have had access to from the very beginning. It’s what justifies the guardian having low hp and low mobility. Thf has mobility and i would honestly argue that ele is the one that needs a buff between the 3 low hp classes, since ele can neither self heal or damage negate as a guardian but it can’t move between points fast enough or escape from fights like thf can, leaving few options in battle.
I believe his numbers are actually for marauder symbolic build.
Mender heals are:
~1.1k from selfless daring.
~1.1 from ageis pure of heart.
~1.1k per symbol from writ.Menders symbol is basically a melee version of menders druid-sustains for days and just wears you down. Being a melee version of menders druid is also why it loses vs druids…they do the same thing but without eating your symbol and trap damage while also being able to avoid scepter damage.
I usually just eat their lbs with shield 5 and sword 3 and then wait for stab to run out to pull them in with f1. Generally the fights just go them sniping me off point and me just cycling through my skills to eat their shots. Never died to one without being +1 though, but have never managed to kill one either since they always sit at a distance and i presume the idea is they want me to chase so they can immob me off point and that ain’t happening.
Then lower the symbol damage.
Hence why the cleric amulet was removed. Guardian healing wasn’t buffed aside from mace. What you’re seeing the loss of cleric ele giving away the spotlight to a new bunker that was always there.
The symbolic build is essentially the old cleric bunker guard that was decent but not used due to cleric ele being better. Now the difference is that the build is flexible enough to make into a dps role with marauder, and menders provides enough dps for it to win a 1v1. Another difference now is the build runs one handed weapons when before it used to run mace/shield and staff.
(edited by Kuya.6495)
Out of the 3 builds, only the 3rd approaches the kind of sustain that you mentioned…
The above calculation proves that this is false. BOTH major DH builds (marauder symbolic and meditrapper as listed on metabattle) can heal for over 25k HP in 30 seconds on average. The number for symbolic is actually EVEN HIGHER than that from using traits in the honor line:
+ 0,1k from every dodge using slefless daring
+ 0,6k from every aegis using pure of heart
+0,6k from every symbol using writ of persistenceAssuming 4 dodges, 3 applications of aegis (shield 4+virtue passive+hunter’s determination ) and an average of 3,5 symbols (sword 2 + scepeter 2, 10 and 6 second cooldwon respectively) over the course of 30 seconds, you get in addition about 5k every 30 seconds, so the healing available to the meta symbolic build using everything on cooldown is about
30k IN 30 SECONDS OR 1K PER SECOND.
Now the other two professions with the same healthpool as guardian are thief and ele. The best marauder builds for these according to metabattle are d/p and fresh air. According to my calculations, marauder fresh air gets about 11-12k healing over 30 seconds, d/p a bit less. So DH healing on symbolic is about THREE TIMES what these builds get. If you take into account all the blocks that DH has, it seems VERY hard to not see an issue with this.
No, i don’t see an issue with that. Guardian is the equivalent of a palladin class in other games, so that the menders symbolic build can heal itself for so much seems like exactly what guardian should have had access to from the very beginning. It’s what justifies the guardian having low hp and low mobility. Thf has mobility and i would honestly argue that ele is the one that needs a buff between the 3 low hp classes, since ele can neither self heal or damage negate as a guardian but it can’t move between points fast enough or escape from fights like thf can, leaving few options in battle.
Must be PTSD from season 1 that has them confused about that dome.
Hmmm, pve down state penalty in pvp might screw the necros in this meta.
Regarding the treb ammo: I would only add poison ammo to it aside from the regular cc/damage attack as to not make it too overpowering. The ammo could be a pulsing poison field as has been mentioned before. This could see more play in higher tiers as usually people know how to avoid the treb shots by then, but if you have a treb shot that leaves a pulsing poison field, then dodging isn’t gonna be enough. Eventually you’ll have to send someone to take out the treb even in higher tiers. The poison field shouldn’t pulse more than one stack since the point is not the damage, but disrupting the enemies healing. If you want to go for something even more game changing, you could also give the treb ammo that leaves a pulsing chill field instead of poison. That might make the treb a lot more dangerous in higher tiers.
How long does the repair kit take to spawn after a treb is destroyed ? Maybe that can be increased to compensate making the treb easier to use and keeping it from being camped all match.
In terms in pvp, dh has become the flavor of the season as revs, necros, wars and mes werte at one point. The reason for that is because dh currently has the widest range in terms of viable specs it can take into matches. Ranging from noob stomper full trapper, team fighter medi trapper or 1v1 champion symbolic dh. All of these actually complement eachother so,unlike thf, you can have a dh party and still be viable. You can have a full glass trapper, a more flexible medi trapper for added dps, a 1v1 dh at far with marauder symbol and a bunker/healer/rezbot with menders symbol. Which means people get super kittened when they get stomped by more than 3 dh. Plus admitedly a point being spammed by traps by a full trapper marauder and a symbol marauder dh must be absolute chaos.
Anyway, just ignore the whining. You either get hated on for being a low tier class or you get flamed for being op. Sometimes you get hated on for no discernable reason. Best not to pay it too much mind.
(edited by Kuya.6495)
I like that it can turn a losing team fight around pretty quickly but its not so overpowered that a team that’s paying attention can’t avoid it. It’s pretty much useless outside of a teamfight so that’s good.
Generally if a person doesn’t know how to aim it, it means a 4v5. So i think its speed and accuracy could use a boost.
I would make it so its preset to hit the center of the capture points. You can only aim it at far, mid and home and just fire. I think that’s the only thing it really needs.
If it will cease the whining. Just start them off at 50% and let’s move on.
After reading the reactions in this thread, i hope the new title is Salt of the Earth or some other form of sodium chloride related title. Certainly well deserved.
Purification* a bit, 10k aoe healing at 0 healing power
???
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purification
? ???
It heals for 8.6k. Are you seriously including the regen?
Why not complain about signet of resolve too? Or is 8.1k ok for you for some reason?
Christ
Purification* a bit, 10k aoe healing at 0 healing power
???
Concur that procession of blades damage needs to go down since its the prime culprit of qq when it comes to low tier pvp noob stomping. I might also suggest a nerf to symbol spamming from sword 2 and scepter 2, decrease its damage but increase its sustain utility via a buff to the honor trait line symbol healing (or higher healing contribution).
I think the realistic way of cutting down on the dominance of dh on low tier pvp is to lower damage specifically on procession of blades, dragon’s maw, and symbol damage from sword 2 and scepter 2. I don’t think the damage on test of faith should be touched because that’s the trap used for higher tiers of play and it actually requires the DH to watch for stab before combo, and then perform, in order, a specific set of skills depending on enemy positioning (if enemy is outside circle, you pull with f1, if they are inside, you push with either lb 2, hammer 4 or shield 5). I don’t know if you need to increase the healing from symbol trait on honor line to compensate for symbol damage nerfs on sword 2 and scepter 2.
I know lowering the damage on those two symbols wouldn’t necessarily put symbolic out of meta, since the build doesn’t just use symbol spam to damage but also to maintain a sustain cadence along with aegis and dodges. As long symbolic still maintains its shield 5 knockback, daze on trap, heal on aegis, cleanse on block, it still serves its purpose even if symbol damage is lowered on those specific one handed skills. So symbolic might survive damage nerfs on symbols for higher pvp, but just become less useful in low tier pvp.
Please also increase speed on mace 2 while you are at it, it’s too slow for what little it offers.
(edited by Kuya.6495)
Actually you know what, put Renewed focus to 1 second. Might help me hold a point better and get back to using my virtues faster.
you must be absolutely terrible at this game if you suck with a gaurdian.
Did i take a dump on your breakfast recently (envy is a common thing around here)? My dear and simple friend, i meant that renewed focus lasting 3 seconds is more of a detriment than a boon since that’s 3 seconds of no point capture contribution. If it lasted 1 second, it would be even stronger probably. So yea, go ahead and nerf that kitten.
And dont worry, i still love you even if you’re salty.
I really really wanted to be nice here, give some advice and encouragement… but then i saw guard icon and all those wonderful feelings disappeared somehow~
today I was feeling to play guardian just because is a bit simple to play.
And yet you’re still not progressing.
If you’re asking for a nerf to one handed symbols to “raise the skill floor” you’re not asking for a nerf for DH specifically. You’re asking for a nerf to core guard.
Let me enlight you with some proper information since it’s clear you lack experience with the class:
The "low skill ceiling " spec is the full trapper DH spec that simply requires you to spam all your traps on a point. This used to be the only thing the short bus in the pvp forum complained about. To nerf the full trapper alls you need to do is nerf trap damage and increase utility.
(edited by Kuya.6495)
So much experience with the class that he complains that Anet needs to infuse more skill into DH when what was buffed was one handed weapons from core guard by adding symbols.
Had a match earlier where this necro would sit outside the point trying to hit me with scepter and his staff. Let me get the cap every time with little effort. I think he thought i was a full trapper guardian cause he refused to get close to me, even though i was running bunker/support.
I imagine in his mind, i was a full trapper guardian with infinite blocks, infinite healing and infinite cleanse.
Actually you know what, put Renewed focus to 1 second. Might help me hold a point better and get back to using my virtues faster.
you killed a beast at least. gg you
Yea, it’s called a long time favorite class finally being good again in pvp, so everyone who ever had a guardian flocks to it. plus everyone else wants to see what all the hype is all about.
For raids, I’d say necros are likelier to be picked because while you might only want one guard for perma protection and dps, you want two necros to bounce epidemic off eachother. Guard is higher dps though. For higher level fractals, yes, a rev is better, followed by a necro then guard. for low level fractals it doesn’t matter. guards have been having this problem since the fractal revamp, no eta on when they will fix this.
For dungeons and solo play, all about the same. possibly rev and guard are higher priority for vanilla dungeons over nec. for solo play you can customize your build to suit it, so i don’t think it really matters there.
If your life is so vexed by guardian blocking, just play a power rev or gunflame warrior.
For dungeons, it doesn’t really matter. For raids, revs are preferred, but guardian isn’t bottom of the barrel (third best dps after thf and ele). For soloing HoT zones, guardian is pretty good. Farm is good with your farm stick (staff). High level fractals is bad for guardians due to the boon thf instability that steals retaliation (guards have a lot of it) that kills party members. Anet did say they were looking into that though. Ranged dps support is basically the meta in wvw for guardian, running stability, wards, and projectile negation for your blob and your longbow, although after the nerfs to it, not sure if the wvw dh still run that weapon.
Honestly? rev is in the better spot, content wise (pvp, raids, fractals). Next is guardian due to its OPness in pvp and wvw, and then necro due to its niche use in certain raid bosses, although necros are always welcome in wvw blobs, and pro league teams in pvp always take one necro.
The state of guardian is radical, sir.
The thing is, the symbol spam isn’t a DH buff. It’s a core guard buff.
if you’re fighting to hold on to a cap or trying to get a decap and you don’t run shield, its next to impossible.
outside of running 5 traps on your bar, a scrapper’s on point AoE pressure still far surpasses what a LB DH can put out in a 1v1.
with menders symbolic, the worst you’ll do is stalemate and can time your immobs and shield 5s enough times to get a decap every time.
This post pretty much covers it.
Watch for stability before popping shield 5. It’s possible to kill an engi, but you need to time your interrupts right to interfere with his rotations, but don’t expect an easy kill.
gonna keep bumping this thread until DH is nerfed.
lol
Unless you use signet of might.
It’s 7s (cause everyone traits it)
lol
Everything about DH is awful now that we’re losing to it.
He’s a necro though so it’s the opposite
I don’t understand why a necromancer would complain about constant blocks, we have the best Unblockable tools in the game.
If you’re playing against a guardian you just slot Corrupt Boon and then when they throw up the DH shield you just use CB and if it hits you’ve instantly won the fight.
HOW?? O.o
The shield last 7 seconds, that skill corrupt 3 boons and have a CD of 15 sec.
if traited in virtues, we can think that the guardian have more or less stability, protection, retalation. Corrupting them we obtain: 1 sec of fear, 3 stacks of vulnerability and 3 of confusion. Our best damage can be, more or less, 2k if he use skills. but he can also active F2 and heal the exact 3 conditions we just corrupted.Then… fear don’t interrupt F3 shield…
What did we obtained with that perfect move? 2k of damage with 7 seconds while we’re unable to hit our enemy? We can have a build with unblockable Marks, then we’re able to use our marvelous staff skills to inflict damage. more or less… nothing? Staff skills are the worst damage skills of the entire game, we use it only why grant LF with AA and have a send back condition and a fear skill.Tell me how that make us a Dragonhunter Killer, please. Expecially why a DH can simply active it another time using the elite and make again all out damage a waste, simpli why out of the RS we’re totally unable to inflict any decent damage. Also corrupting boons.
Don’t say that we’re able to kill a DH why that’s more or less impossible. With a simple pull/knockback combo with the sword wall trap a DH can inflict us insane damage, plus all the other LB skills (true shot inflict 6k of damage, just to say). A good DH will kill any necromancer he find in his way really really easy with insane damage, CC, immunity and blocks, with also a good healing ability.
And about of the Blind… with the meta build or a Mm build we’re totally Unable to inflict Blind, unless we enter the Elite form, that is only a way to last a little longer and inflict even lesser damage. i think you fought other builds than the few viable, maybe one with wells, that can spam blind but in the exact moment he spam the wells is useless and dead, because all our others are unable to do it. At last we can corrupt fury to obtain a single blind, nothing more.
Actually the Necromancer is at the bottom class tier, as more or less Always.
We had two times a little of glory and every time that glory last for some month and then disappear into nerfs and other class buffs.I did tonight 6 match in Ranked and I don’t find Any necromancer in my or the enemy team. just me.
There’s a reason why everyone play ranger, dh, reve, warrior and thief, don’t you think?
ele is actually lowest on the tier list right now. and while you are right that thf is played more frequently in solo q than necro, i honestly feel it should be the other way around. i rather have two necros on my team than two thfs. hell i rather haveone necro to one thf. with solo q full of dh, a thf is a bigger liability than a necro.
usually when a thf comes to help me when i’m 2v1 i just tell him to not bother and let me die since i know he’s just gonna disapoint me