Guild Wars 2

Kurieg.4158:

Another option is to simply scale Retaliation as a percentage of the attack damage, up to a cap of the current amount.

It is not capped at a current amount, it is based off the power rating of the guardian who uses it.

Just nerf it, or take it away, like I said we only mainly use it for stability. Nerf it but give guardians more mobility, better range options, better condition removal, more HP. We will glady trade retalition for those things.

With anything dealing with Data, there are logs. Can you can take those logs and compile the information to meaningfull events? Such as:

Character X builds offensive (AC, Trebs, Cats, Ballista) seige site within structure.
Character X uses offensive siege site, hits opposing player(s)
Character X repairs wall/gate during/after structure attack
Character X aquired supply X many times during X time frame

Using formulas like those might be helpful when determining what events should be rewarded for defending.

Every action characters do in your servers are logged somewhere. By using such logs you could even determine which character was idle and for how long, by lack of actions during a given time frame.

As a guardian from headstart, I would gladly trade retalition for more HP, better condition removal, better range weapons, and better mobility.

I can careless about retalition tbh, we only use it for stability, but sure take it away from us. Just give us access to the issues above.

Vitality > Toughness, thats what most of every one is saying, and it is true. Condi spamm rules in GW2 atm, so this makes maximizing Armor nearly useless, this is why I do not play my Guardian anymore.

1. Give guardians more mobility

2. Give guardians better range options

3. Give Guardians more health pool

4. Give Guardians zero to very little attacking animations like every one else

5. Give Guardians Condition resist in toughness trait line

Than nerf our retalition.

Sarsbear.3469:

As a small group guardian since headstart I find retaliation broken. I exploit this as much as possible for my groups, its certainly perma on myself, and near perma for my group. However, I gave up using a staff because the huge cone hit from 1 meant constantly taking large chunks of my life while doing small dmg. Now I use greatsword and often take 50% of my health on a 2 whirl. Do I “die from retal?” I don’t think I’ve been put into down state from retal specifically, but there are certainly times I’ve died because hitting the group would reflect too much dmg, while not hitting the group meant a slower death.

My suggestions is to drop the duration by around half, possibly lower the base damage, and make it scale based on condition damage, just like its counterpart confusion. This would also help to address the lack of a condition spec for guardians.

" I exploit this as much as possible for my groups, its certainly perma on myself, and near perma for my group. " – near perma is 9.5 seconds?

“Now I use greatsword and often take 50% of my health on a 2 whirl.” – You’re doing it wrong.

“My suggestions is to drop the duration by around half” – which would be 2.5 seconds by default. Seems legit.

“possibly lower the base damage, and make it scale based on condition damage” Implies you don’t know anything about guardians’ lack of condition abilities….

“As a small group guardian since headstart I find retaliation broken.” – Only implies you were on that cookie cutter retaliation build…tisk tisk tisk, of course that was broken, it has been fixed for a while not, why dont you try to build your guardian the same way and see how effective it is again…

First off, its not Perma uptime, I can only have it on me for a maximum of 9.5 seconds out of 24 seconds. With traits/runes/food to increase boon duration, that is not no where near 100% uptime.

Second, it is not Passive, see above.

Third the damage is based on the one Guardians Power, some have low power, some have high power, but that is what it is based off of.

Lastly, If you are getting retaliation damage that is your fault, I notice it on my thief and I just turn around to stop attacking/shooting…its that easy…

Dont use “Best” in your subject line. Thier are plenty of other guardians with different play styles and perspectives when it comes to PvP in GW2, being on the winning team does not make any one the “Best” at that class.

Best at 1v1?

- Best 1v1 against Necro’s
– Best 1v1 against Engi’s?
– Best 1v1 against other Guard’s?
– Best 1v1 against Ele’s?
– Best 1v1 against Thiefs?
– Best 1v1 against Warriors?
– Best 1v1 against Ranger’s?
– Best 1v1 against Mesmer’s?

Best at Bunkering?

- Best bunker against Necro’s
– Best bunker against Engi’s?
– Best bunker against other Guard’s?
– Best bunker against Ele’s?
– Best bunker against Thiefs?
– Best bunker against Warriors?
– Best bunker against Ranger’s?
– Best bunker against Mesmer’s?

Best Healing Spec?

- Best self healing Spec?
– Best group healing Spec?

Best DPS Spec?

Best Condi removal Spec?
– Best group condi removal?
– Best self condi removal?

With so many builds and play styles, when you place “Best” infront of any one, that just completly disregards all other builds and players out there.

Thanks for the support though.

Summary:

Vitality > Toughness.

I point at condi spammers for context but at the end of the day, HP means much more than Armor, we all know it too. Just double standards that classes that have low HP can not maximize High Armor and stay alive longer than classes with high HP and little to medium armor.

So the condi spammer who uses foods/runes/traits to maximize condi spam sacrifices nothing, yet power based player with low health pools must sacrifice traits/runes/stats/utilities to try to mitigate condi spam is fair?

seems legit

PS. Vitality > Toughness in GW2

Aberrant.6749:

Conds can be better mitigated than direct damage. There is no way for me to mitigate as much direct damage as a single cond clear can do Vs. a long duration burn or a lot of bleed/torment stacks. Then there is 40% duration food, Melandru, traits (on my eng it converts some incomming conditions to boons, my guard passively removes them every 10s etc.)….

Toughness is fine as is as well. You’re not meant to just tank every bit of damage in this game. You need to dodge as well to prevent that damage from even occurring in the first place. This actually opens up more builds by giving classes like guard vigor on crit (crits then become a way to mitigate damage). There are also sigils which can help your survival greatly by refilling your endurance.

This is his answer, trait, rune, sacrifice to mitigate it, because you cant just trait into it like necro’s, Yes necro’s, they are the easiest to point at right now.

Condi’s are not fine, not if you compare it to power based attacks.

Look:

*Melee based attacks, kite
*Range based Condi spam, eat it and mitigate it with your long CD’s, because your not going to be able to kill them anyway.

If you build to mitigate Condi spam, your not going to be able to kill the ranged spammer, thats the difference, the range condi spammers can safely kite you while your trying to close in for attacks that arent going to hit anyway.

Learn to use your counters at the right time.

Animation: GS Guardian attacks, missed !
Animation: Necro bombs, hit !

You all make small asuras and play classes that have zero to very little casting animations, and say “L2 Dodge” While youre condi bombing classes that have very visible power based animations saying “Ha I see your attack, I haz dodge buttonz”

L2telegraph your skills just like GS Guardians, etc is what I say!

Vitality > Toughness
Condi > Power

Truth in GW2, we all know it.

PS. Toughness < Vitality in GW2

The only defense is mentioning “Bunker Guardians are great!” Well, not every guardian wants to bunker…

As a matter of fact, Spirit Ranger’s, Bunker Engi’s, and Bunker Necro’s bunker better than guardians. Not because they provide more support, but because they can actually kill you, while holding a point.

Bunker gaurdians cant kill anything, am I the only guardian that is perfectly fine with other classes bunkering a point better than me? I can care less about bunkering a point. I want to be able to hold my own against every other class. My theif kills faster and dies much less than my guardian. So much stealth, dodge, shadow steps, blinds its crazy, while my guardian sits there like a punching bag, auto attacking with my scepter or staff…LOL

DD Thief vs GS Guardian with 3.5k Armor/3.8k Attack = dead DD Thief.

:)

“Guardians are good at 1v1 it’s just we have to try harder than other classes because we don’t have the mobility, CC, stealth etc that other classes have that allow them to take a breather before getting back in the game.

Guardian is a very ‘once you’re in you’re in’ kinda class and the only real options are killing everything or die trying."

This guy>They got pretty good mobility with the right weapons. I run with sword and a 600 range tele every 10 seconds is really good. 1200 every 20 seconds is still better than a dual-traited Mesmer Blink (reduce cooldown + increase range). With a GS, you’d be getting 1200 every 15 seconds. Not bad, granted there are targets to select." Is just tyring to make up for the lack of our mobility, we are subpar in mobility in this game compared to every other class. Dont let him fool you.

To OP:

Go with what you want, but in the end you will experience what every one on this thread is saying. In PVE its great, in PvP, people will assume you are a Bunker build, and they will get upset when you die, and you will die. Engi’s, Necro’s and Rangers can bunk better than any Guardian, you wanna know why? Because they can actually kill who is trying to kill them. The true bunker build for guardians cant solo anything. in PvP or WvW.

I have a guardian from beta I left on the shelf recently. My personal game play is not to support a group, but to be tanky and up in your face. Cant do that when TOUGHNESS IS USELESS COMPARED TO VITALITY in GW2.

If I build for bunker, I cant kill the guy who’s wittling away at my HP fast enough to stay alive. If I build the way I want (Armor/Attack) I have low HP, enough to get condi spammed so hard I still loose.

My Dual Pistol thief could bunker a point better than my guardian, thats sad, and its not even built to bunk anything.

PS.
Toughness < Vitality.

Darnis.4056:

We have that; Custom Arenas.
And Team que, for the second part.

More like, hop in a 8 man room, in hopes randoms dont come in to interfer with GvG.

This could even be linked to guild events ! 40 man rooms, (20v20) why not?

I have been a guardian since beta, and I dont use forum builds.

When a D/D theif fights me they kill their selves, not just because retaliation…

My build lets me burn when I block, heal when I roll, I use two shouts, one gives 5 sec retaliation/stability, other gives 10 seconds retaltion + 7 others.

Its not perma retaliation, max is 15 seconds though.

I have 3.4k Armor, 3.9k Atk, 18K HP

With all that attack, any squishy that gets close to my GS is what I want, I want people to stand in melee range of me, if by chance they try to kite me I pull out my scepter/focus for anti kite work.

Not every player uses other peoples builds, some are atcually very good at making their own builds to play with. But with over 12 years of MMORPG experience, this comes very easy for me.

Answer:

- Give toughness trait line passive condition defense.

Players with High HP do not feel the damage that much.
Players with Low HP get destroyed in seconds.

High HP should not qualify bunker/sustainment, not in any game. Currently, Toughness means just about nothing in PvP.

[/quote]
Armor. Is. Not. Supposed. To. Stop. Conditions. By. Design. Get. Vitality. Condition Removal. Or. Get. Wrecked.
[/quote]

Stop and mitigate a portion are two different meanings my friend.

"""Get Vitality, Condition Removal"""

^This…this is what I mean, Vitality is far better than Armor in PvP.

Condition removal you say? Did you happen to look at the skills I copied and pasted from GW2 Wiki?

Make Armor better, give us % Condition mitigation. I spent my $60 just like you and every one else in here, this game is lacking condition defense, I shouldnt have to disregard my strength in Toughness to sustain myself, builds based on Toughness should be given some type of condition mitigation; other than unrealiable utilities on my bar.

I use Fighter runes actually, with I believe over 3.5k Attack, right over 3k Armor. I have no issues with theives, melee warriors, melee guardians. My complain is that Power/Toughness based builds are not very viable against current Condition Spammage. Must every one make their build to counter range based conditions? If there were a small % of Condition Defense in Armor in GW2 a lot of complaints about it would go away. Or is it that Armor is weaker than Vitality? Because that is how it seems right now.

Atherakhia.4086:

We’re getting dangerously close to introducing resilience.

Conditions and Bunker builds are a problem because they have a single stat feeding them. Notice how the majority of bunker builds are also condition spec’d? It’s because these classes can ignore crit and cirt damage completely. In WvW it’s the same thing with apothecary gear where players ignore power too.

Reduce condition damage by XX% across the board and allow them to crit and you’d probably see an end to condition and bunker dominance in this game.

Or you could just make armor reduce damage by 1%, conditions by .5%, crit damage by .25%, and crit chance by 2%

The last part, well Im not greedy, my biggest complain as a Power/Toughness based build is condition damage, the % condition defense is what I mean.

tom.7468:

There is ways to deal with conditions. And eles can cleanse conditions better than guards.

Signet of Resolve; 1 every 10 seconds (passive) – is that (1 condition)10 seconds random? Or upon application?

Smite Condition — Cure a condition and damage nearby foes. More damage if a condition is cured (1 condition)

Cleansing Flame — Breathe magical flames that damage foes and cure conditions on allies. – Does not work for myself, only allies

Ray of Judgment — Pass a ray over foes and allies. Foes are damaged and blinded. Allies gain regeneration and cure one condition. (Again, not for me)

Bow of Truth — Summon an arcane bow to cure conditions on you and your allies. (One per second, or just one total, I tried it a few times, alas, its a Spirit Weapon LOL)

Purging Flames — Create a ring of fire that burns foes and cures conditions on allies. (One condition)

Contemplation of Purity; all on self – (Nice, but can be used against you by necros)

Absolute Resolution –three conditions from self upon activating Virtue of Resolve (nice, but what happens when the necro re-applies them and I dont have my regen up?)

Purity – one condition from self every 10 seconds (is that (1 condition)10 seconds random? Or upon application?)

Look at this crap, how can one honestly say, with a straight face, “There is ways to deal with conditions”

Equip these utilities and loose my regen, protection, stability, etc? Be a walking guardian with a stick that cant get close to any one, that cant use my one GS skill that forecasts me using it and expect to hit anything?

ensoriki.5789:

Armor ignoring damage is needed to circumvent armor so it doesn’t kitten on everyone.
It’s only a shame that outside of Life Steal that the direct version of Armor ignoring damage somehow didn’t make it from GW1.
Conditions as a whole among the various professions aren’t that big. Guardian and Ele condi damage isn’t very noteworthy. There isn’t any inherit need for a condi def when really the current condition situation didn’t even exist in the same capacity two months ago.

Just lastnight in SPvP, I dueled a necro. I tried to get in his face but I was slowed (among many other condition applications), I tried to cleanse (with my stand in circle to cleanse one every second utility, managed to clear 2-3) I was feared (with stability on). I leaped at him, but I was feared again, then dropped with all the conditions one me.

Is this every one’s idea of balance?

Are power/toughness based builds just intended to be sub par in PvP? I cant play my guardian the way I want to? Im not a caster, I prefer in your face, I dont like being squishy against physical attacks.

I must L2P? or is that another way of saying Power/Toughness (In your face) type based builds are not the way to go?

No one said “Ignoring damage”, I still take damage, and plenty of it. All I am saying is there should be Condition Defense in Armor.

Guardian: “I have so much armor, I will outlast my opponent.”
AoE Condition Spammers:” I can safely range Condition spam anyone.”
Necro Spammers:” I can safely range Condition spam anyone, and even fear them if they have stability on!”
Guardian:” Here I go I see someone with my GS, Leap!, Hazaa!”
Necro Spammer:”Oh no he didn’t!, eat these conditions!”
Guardian: “ He might fear me, I better put on stability!”
Necro Spammer:” He has stability on!, Har Har Har, eat this fear!”
Guardian:”Oh Em Gee, Im feared, condition spammed and dying, let me pop my condi cleaner!”
Necro Spammer:” Oh no he didn’t, here come the condition spamz again good sir!”
Guardian:” Oh Em Gee, im dying here and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it!”

Armor means nothing in PvP/WvW, you ask most competitive players, most will agree. Most other MMORPG’s have other types of attacks and mitigations. I have played games with “Magical Defense” and “Magical Resist”, why is it GW2 doesn’t have anything like that?

Why must we ignore armor over vitality to sustain ourselves? Why isn’t high armor complimented with passive condition defense? I can have over 3.5k Armor, but it means absolutely nothing in current AoE Spammage Meta. Sure I can take on the rare D/D Theif or 100 kitten Warrior on my Power/Toughness GS Guardian. But other than that I’m a donkey in a barrel, especially to necros.

One night I was complaining in my guild TS about the lack of condition mitigation, and how in other games armor is complimented by nonphysical defense. I got a random reply; Armor is mitigation against physical attack, Vitality is mitigation against Condition spam, this is true in GW2. But how many players are playing power/toughness based builds besides me? Let’s be honest, they’re not viable in the current competitive game.

Our condition mitigations are not enough for the frequency their dished out. I can’t stand in a circle cleansing myself of conditions (1 every second at best) and expect to not get fear spammed even with stability on. Or the condition spamz over and over again, even if I manage to cleanse 2-3 off of me. As a guardian, I cant even compliment my build or capitalize on our “Highest Armor” base in the game. Not when that means I drop like a fly against some necros. No, I must completely disregard armor, and go full vitality to try to sustain, our cleanses are not effective.

Power/toughness based builds need condition defense in our Toughness line. (Gaurdian) Or give us better traits in our Vitality lines.

I’d suggest scepter for PvP.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

This thread is way too important for unconstructiveness and posts about PvE and WvW.
Keep it elsewhere, thanks!

yes it is, the other guy brought it up, just talking about the trend overall.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Littlefeather.8623:

This game has always favored range over melee, in PvE, PvP and even WvW.

Since when melee sucked in pve? Have you looked at dungeon speed run records? They use mostly melee.

Melee train is the meta in top WvWvW. Majority is melee train is hammer + sword/warhorn warriors, followed then by guardians. Supported by a few staff elementalists, necromancers and mesmers. Some top teams use a ranger and a thief as well, but generally medium armor professions are not part of WvWvW meta.

E.g. look at this list of the world’s top WvWvW guilds. You can see a lot of their game play videos at youtube. It is very heavy melee oriented and pure ranged teams run away.
http://gw2gvg.com/

I am fully aware of the need to guardians in WvW, but generally speaking; aside from spamming #1 in a zerg with a few utilities; we are very limited to how we can contribute. And we are usually always the first ones down with the spammage casters just sitting back in the cut.

In PvE range aoe spammers can make as many mistakes as they want, their still just pressing buttons, while as a guardian, semi offtank, im pressing buttons, dodge rolling, healing, etc. Its less forgiving for melee, v range. And even now with necros for example, they can burst condition some one down before they even get touched.

I love my power/toughness shout build guardian, fits my prefered playstyle. I have a PvP buddy in my guild that always beats me in duels, I blame it on the range advantage. I do have access to a few condition cleanses, but not really viable ones suprisingly. I think my best one is a circle that I have to stand in because it pulses for 5-6 seconds and every second is one condition cleansed. Thats fine and great ya know. But heres the thing, it sucks when I pop by stability shout to get ready to attack the necro than I get feared, after I get feared I get like 6-8 conditions on me, I have to stand in a circle to clease…At this time I am slowed and 20-30% HP, and besides me elite with lets me reset by virtues for another block/heal/burn (LOL Burn) there is nothing else I can do.

""As a Grenade spamming PvE engineer(also warrior, thief and elementalist. the rest are not played as much) who does not play sPvP I have to ask. Is the typical PvPer really so terrible than they will just stand in one spot and let an engineer spam grenades on them? Even with PvE mobs you have to account for their movement, this is usually easy but it is still possible to misjudge. I would expect actual players to be better. Grenades are neither instant nor the fastest flying projectiles either.

So assuming people are smart enough to move then the engineer must also move to maintain distance. Without bothering with the other issues this now requires the engineer to correctly aim the grenades while both the engineer and the target are on the move. This does not require any skill at all? People are still charging at the engineer in a straight line at a consistent speed? If they replace Shrapnel Grenade with a Stun Grenade then this might be more accurate.""

Do you honestly believe that your range AoE condition based build is completly balanced with a power based melee build?

Not knocking on HGH at all, but more a long the lines of AoE Range Spammage builds in general. I think every one who PvP’s by now realizes you cannot go in there with a power based melee build and expect to win against condition spamming builds who kite you. This game has always favored range over melee, in PvE, PvP and even WvW. I love my power/toughness based guardian shout build. But I certainly can not take it in TPvP, I dont have a choice but to go bunker. Sure I can use Judges Intervention, completly forecast my attack with my GS and get slowed and kited again, but I’ll still loose.

+1 from a power/toughness guardian, even though I can never use it in TPvP.

Not every guardian is support/heal based, but some people are happy I guess.

So your saying you would kill yourself by auto attacking a guardian with retaliation on, and the guardian just standing there…

Seems legit.

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

You get a bunch of damage only if you are bad enough to not stop the cast once you realize you’re dying from retal. That’s the punishment because you didn’t cared about the enemy boons.

Also, Flame Jet inflict also burning. You did not dealt less damage than retaliation.

Even if i cancel the autoattack, i’ve already got a retaliation hit for every hit i’ve already inflicted.
And flame jet inflicts burning only on the last hit – and on a single target, but i may be wrong about this. So if i cancel it – no burning at all. But even considering that, we’re talking about a single tick of burning every 2.25s.

Littlefeather.8623:

Im sorry, Im no mathmatician, but how would one go about getting 30 hits per single auto attack?

Flame jet does 10 hits in 2.25s, and it can hit a max of 3 targets. So, up to 30 hits.
We were talking about a timeframe of 5 seconds, so around 60 at max if there are three targets. And that autoattack behaves best with multiple targets – be there 1 or 3, i always deal the same damage per each one. So it is quite low versus a single foe, and can be somehow decent versus three…but having more people also raises the chance of them getting retaliation in some way.

Littlefeather.8623:

Also;

“16029 hp damage just by retaliation”
“2671 per attack”

As a guardian who has been a guardian since Headstart, I have never seen any where near those numbers you pulled out of somewhere, into actual game play….

So you explain to me how one crit hit can hit me one time for 4-8k dmg, and my retaliation while up hits the attacker for 200-300 dmg one time; and how it adds up with the numbers you presented.

Cause retaliation punishes per hit, and not per attack; when there are skills with multiple hits, the attacker get punished for every single hit – up to 30 with a single attack in flame jet’s case, cause it can do up to 30 hits. In the example above we were talking about 5 seconds and three opponents, so 60 hits done by flame jet, and thus by retaliation.
Since retaliation doesn’t take in account the damage dealt, but rather the power of the attacker, when someone attacks with skills that do multiple weak hits – like flame jet – you have this bizarre situation where the hits do negligible damage – cause the skill coefficent per hit is pretty low – but retaliation hits back using an higher modifier than the single hits of the skill used, thus the attacker gets an higher damage than the one he dealt.

Than the:

“16029 hp damage just by retaliation”
“2671 per attack”

Situation is when you are attacking three players at once, and not just one. So those numbers would make sense if divided by three according to your results.

“890 per attack”
“5343 hp dmg just by retaliation”

*I want to point out that the amount of Retaliation dmg done is based on the Power of the Guardian.

When your outputting how much dmg in those five seconds?, while taking into account your HP vs the Guardians HP.

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

You don’t even need to see the boon on your enemy.
You just need to see the huge icon popping on your character’s head and stop casting Flame Jet.

If you can’t use your autoattack, you can still use all of your other skills in the time window retaliation is up.

Then i’ve already got a good bunch of damage – quite more than the one i’ve dealt to the enemy. And this can happen every time i try attacking with it.

Littlefeather.8623:

If any one in GW2 dies from 5 seconds of Retaliation hits, there is something wrong with the player…

You mean to tell the PvP community that 200-300 per hit of retaliation over 5 seconds is going to kill you?

GG

You can get up to 30 hits with multiple enemies – that means, 30 hits of retaliation per a single autoattack. Let’s even suppose we are talking about a char with the bare minimum power – 916. Retaliation damage per hit is 267,15.
In 5 seconds you can do at least 2 autoattacks, so a max of 60 hits. That alone can give you up to 16029 hp damage just by retaliation. Ok, it won’t kill you alone…but it is still too much for a passive effect, seeing as the damage done by the autoattack is abysmal.
More realistically you will be toward a single enemy, and it will still be harmful anyway – the flamethrower is balanced toward dealing with multiple enemies, so the autoattack is actually quite low versus a single enemy. And you will still get up to 2671 per attack, while doing quite less than that damage – around 600 or 700 total damage versus a light golem, cause i’m testing it just now (i’m still assuming you have no other power than the base one – obviously, increasing your power also directly increases retaliation damage).
As i said, retaliation is far too harsh toward multi-hit autoattacks and relatively useless toward the other types. A percentage of the damage would be quite more fair.

Im sorry, Im no mathmatician, but how would one go about getting 30 hits per single auto attack?

Also;

“16029 hp damage just by retaliation”
“2671 per attack”

As a guardian who has been a guardian since Headstart, I have never seen any where near those numbers you pulled out of somewhere, into actual game play….

So you explain to me how one crit hit can hit me one time for 4-8k dmg, and my retaliation while up hits the attacker for 200-300 dmg one time; and how it adds up with the numbers you presented.

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

There is no team perma-retaliation in reality.
Even if there was perma retaliation, you still have 4 other skills on your bar (even more in the case of engineer) that you can use without wiping your whole HP bar.

It’s your fault if you use a single skill which is capable to kill you. It’s your fault because you didn’t noticed that the whole enemy team had retaliation on.

You don’t need perma retaliation. 5 seconds can be enough to make an engineer kill himself. Also, people may get retaliation while we are attacking, or just some enemy could have it – and you can’t just see every single boon on every enemy to do a single attack.
And so no one even tries to use that autoattack, even if it is supposed to be used versus multiple enemies. We are supposed to stay in that kit for prolonged times if we get the juggernaut trait, yet we can’t even use the autoattack cause it is more harmful for us than the enemies.

If any one in GW2 dies from 5 seconds of Retaliation hits, there is something wrong with the player…

You mean to tell the PvP community that 200-300 per hit of retaliation over 5 seconds is going to kill you?

GG

sorrow.2364:

Rozbuska.5263:

Well if you hit with FT for 300 and get back 300 while thief hits you for 5k and get back 300 is something wrong.

There isn’t something wrong because you won’t just hit for 300. You will hit for 300 10 times and deal even more damage caused by burning.

Those 5k damage from the thief can be avoided just by an aegis, a single dodge, an invulnerability, a block or whatever you want. Then the thief can’t hit you for 5k for a consistent time window.

Those 10+ hits can’t be just avoided by those skill, that’s why retaliation is there.

Dude, ret doesnt hit you 10 times if you hit me one time…

also, you people tend to think aegis is always up on a guardian…

Virtue of Courage grants aegis every forty seconds..If I get hit with aegis it blocks, Then I have to wait 40 seconds for it to be up again…

Yea, If a get one nice burst shot on me with aegis down, and I do happen to have retaliation up, that 4-7k crit on me will only return 200-300 damage to you…something is wrong.

Guardians only have 2 real viable condi removers; Sure we have access to skills that remove conditions but what guardian is going to take utility slots

1. Smite Condition — Cure a condition and damage nearby foes. More damage if a condition is cured. What guardian is going to use this in place of stand your ground or save yourself?

2. Purging Flames — Create a ring of fire that burns foes and cures conditions on allies.
Sure sounds neat, but without stability, protection, regen, what kind of guardian are you?

3. Bow of Truth — Summon an arcane bow to cure conditions on you and your allies.
"" ""….Oh and spirit weapon…nice, lol

4. Purifying Ribbon (Tome of Courage) — Release a ribbon of light that bounces to nearby allies, curing one condition on each ally hit and blinding each foe hit. 180 Second CD…for one condition removal…ok

5. Smite Condition — Cure a condition and damage nearby foes. More damage if a condition is cured. Nice, one condi remove, much preferred over stand your ground or save yourself or a signet.

Some just make no sense:

(Absolute Resolution – three conditions from self upon activating Virtue of Resolve )…activate my regen virue to loose 3 conditions, sure get some hp, loose it in another 2-3 seconds due to condi spammage now without regen.

(Inscribed Removal – one condition from self upon activating signets ), Sure activate my defensive signet to loose one condition, no im taking full 100% dmg for a full 30 seconds utill it comes up again.

These amount up to so little compared to condition spamming classes, moreso any guardian that builds for condition removal is not viable in any other form…

LionZero.3479:

Burning damage from skills in general needs to be put in line more with the damage a combo field burn deals, skills usually burn for 700~ while the combo field is about 300 with the same stats.

Burning is overall a bit 2 strong like this mainly on gaurdian and engi, having the tick more around 500 would seem better to me and up the combo field burn to 400 or so.

Burning? One of the only two conditions in this game that deals a small amount of damage that does not stack in intensity and only duration? The only condition that Guardians have; that any guardian will kitten theirself if they increase the damage on it by building his/her gear condition based.

You think there are condition damage based guardians out there who can decently survive and still do deal decent damage?

Any guardian that has near perma uptime of ret is gimping theirself in many other ways. Those builds have gone away for a while after some patch a while back. I use ret from shouts, thats stand your ground and save yourself for a maximum of 15 seconds in WvW (not sure atm in PvP [maybe 10 seconds]), ofcourse I can use one signet for an additional 3 seconds I believe but cmon, any build that focuses on uptime of ret is only gimping their other strongpoints as a guardian. We dont want perma uptime but we do want it to return more of an equal amount of damage at best; for the small viable uptime it can be up.

YuiRS.8129:

Manuhell.2759:

Imho, its design is flawed. It should reflect a percentage of the damage done. As it is now, it is useless toward big damaging skills and extremely harsh versus weak multi-hit attacks.

It should also be impossible to maintain perma-Retaliation, because “just don’t attack” strategy doesn’t really apply to it in its current state. You gotta kill that bunker this year.

We dont want perma ret, we do however would like a bit of a bump to ret damage.

Manuhell.2759:

Imho, its design is flawed. It should reflect a percentage of the damage done. As it is now, it is useless toward big damaging skills and extremely harsh versus weak multi-hit attacks.

+1

Thedenofsin.7340:

tangatalaga.5943:

Hey guys,

So with all of this talk about the condition meta and how effective it is, I thought of possible ways to counter it in FUTURE PATCHES. One of the ideas that I tended to gravitate towards was making retaliation return a portion of the condition damage back to the sender.

According to the wiki, the current formula for retaliation is 198.45 + (0.075 * Power). Be mindful that the current state of retaliation only affects direct hits. If anything else, please remind me what else procs retaliation

I propose retaliation returns something like 0.10 * Incoming Condition Damage. This makes it a flat-rate 10% damage return to the sender. Now we can take this further and say it does 10% PER CONDITION, but that already sounds a bit like we’re overdoing it. Perhaps 5% per condition is more up the alley of balance.

Any feedback? I’m not sure if this has been discussed already

Counter to conditions: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition#Skills_that_remove_conditions

You act as if stacking Condi removal is viable in this game…

Necro: “Hey heres all these conditions!”
Guardian: “Oh let me use 1 of my 2 utility condtion removals!” [Cleanses conditions]
Necro: Oh, you cleansed? Grr, heres some more!"
Guardian:" Oh my!, Now I have a few more conditions, but my only other utility can only cleanse one!"[Cleansed 1 condition]

Guardian:“Oh no I have 2+ condtitions on me and I cant do anything about it!”, furthermore, I have no protection/stability/regen because I wasted my utilities on condition removals instead of actual viable skills. So now im getting interupted and feared and im poisioned so my heal only does 1-3k at best"…

Necro:“Har Har Har!”

GG

google.3709:

necros are the easiest to focus fire and to fight and kill, once those 2 dodges are out.. It’s GG for them, also necro are the seconds easiest class to stomp

We have a new entry in the big book of things nobody has ever said before.

Notice the OP…Necromancer wants Skyhammer back…

Hey ANET guys, yall get it now right?…

Professor Sensei.2941:

Meh. Just someone kittening around. Killed them before but they aren’t doing much of anything.

Arent doing much of anything?

You know how much time is spent with self less players building defensive seige in keeps/towers?

I have a theif, I think I want to try this too, since A-Net clearly is unable to do anything about it.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Many builds work well across all maps, skyhammer aside.

Exactly, I am very profecient in one build I use for PvP, and in WvW. Another build brings another playstyle.

If its not broke, what is there to fix? With one build I have somewhat mastered and used in every situation, and now this comes out. I agree the map is fun, but it shouldnt be used in TPvP. Making troll builds shouldnt be necassary for getting the W.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Keep discussing, but I’m curious: Would having templates alleviate the issue of not wanting to respec for certain maps?

We do see teams shift their comps around for certain maps (and it seems to be very effective), would this not be along the same lines?

Keep the feedback coming, this is great!

My PvP build works perfectly fine in any other map, runes, sigils, traits, gear, everything is the exact same. The new map is the only map i need to rework my entire build and play style.