Guild Wars 2

That’s not a dagger, it’s lawn dart.

…

Oh my God, she IS a murderer!

Suggested reading: How to Give Good Feedback

This thread is a good example of how not to.

I think the forum reflects the up-down rollercoaster state of Mesmer right now as hthe profession is beset by both buffs and nerfs at a dizzying pace, exacerbated by the confounding effect of condition damage being overpowered globally, and the designers scrambling to make major changes to numerous interrelated game systems on a live MMO while players are trying to adjust.

That, and an ongoing orgy of straw man bashing, as demonstrated in this thread.

Not seeing a martyr complex, though that won’t stop people from seeing one if they want to.

Good Lord, look at some of the posts in this thread. And you wonder why so many people don’t want to deal with larger guilds?

Just look at what they have to look forward to.

TheGuy.3568:

I know it likely definitely won’t happen but……..

Fixed.

I’m still working through the new trait regime myself and agree that in some cases it seems to discourage build diversity — contrary to stated goals — but it’s still very early and the new scheme makes it much easier for the designers to adjust, tweak and reshuffle the traits and specializations as needed to make different builds more attractive.

It is a step forward, though it may not always feel like it, so I counsel patience.

Patience.

Phyrex.5174:

Okay, but when my lvl80 is downscaled to lvl25 and is weaker than a character actually lvl25, this isint right either.
they should be equal at least

That does seem odd. They may be trying to compensate for ascended/legendary gear, but they may have overcompensated.

Definitely! That rifle skin is the kitten’s kitten!

Quite possibly the best idea in the history of gaming.

So how ’bout it, ArenaNet? We know you love fun, and this is fun, so…

Q.E.D.

Maybe they should have used a kitten instead of a unicorn.

thetarot.8246:

Guardian: "Okay, this mesmer is going to Phase Retreat in his Chaos Storm to get Chaos Armor second time, He’s already used the Staff 4, One of his escapes will be on cooldown. " Ring of Warding after Phase Retreat, Potentially trapped Mesmer, or forced to use Blink.

Or more realistically:

“Guardian… CHOP!!!!”

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

I’ve played Mesmer since GW1, and this update is the best thing to happen to Mesmers since the GW1 update on May 21, 2010, which finally, after five years, made Mesmer a viable profession in all game modes. Here we are again, it having only been three years this time. Mesmer feels great now. Versatile and strong, but certainly not overpowered when taking into account the buffs other professions received. This is how Mesmer should always have been, and unsurprisingly, the same man was behind both changes. Thank you for everything, Robert. You did good, both times.

Imagine my disgust, then, to see a topic like this, which seems to be filled with people wanting a “special snowflake” merit badge for having played Mesmer back when it was little more than a Feedback/Time Warp button in PvE, and a two-gimmick developer injoke in PvP. If you are one of these people, you do not love Mesmer as a profession, you only love yourself for playing one because it was weak. If you find personal validation in playing underpowered aspects of games, please find it elsewhere, in single-player games perhaps.

Thankfully, Jon Peters has made clear that only small tweaks to the new status quo are coming. The new Mesmer is here to stay, so if you don’t like it, you are best served to find some other profession or game where your quest for hipster credibility can be satisfied. As someone who follows fighting games, I can assure you there are plenty of underpowered and underrepresented characters in that genre for you to feel special about playing.

Props for using “hipster” and “special snowflake” in the same post.

Tragically hip, and very special.

I agree. It’s an outrage!

It should have been a pegasus, because…

Rainbow Dash is Best Pony™

Me And My Imaginary Friends

Curunen.8729:

If you never use phantasms or shatters I can’t see how you’re build is effective anymore – I assume you also used things like Debilitating Dissipation in the past?

Given how sweeping the last patch was, I’m still working on builds, and deciding whether I prefer the staff or the scepter. Yes, these are the go-to weapons for cloners (with the trident being the undisputed king of the seas), but since that’s by design, well, there it is.

And yes, Debiliating Dissipation was very important, as were all the traits that granted damage on clone destruction (not shattering), clones applying conditions on critical hits, traiting with Rabid gear so the clones could inherit the traits, and so on. Heck, I even used Confusion in PvE before it got buffed, which reminds me…

Before we go any further, I would like to point out that context is everything: I’m just a PvE player who mostly solos (let us now cue the adorably adolescent sneers that invariably emanate from some PvPers and dungeon runners so I can enjoy a good laugh). I will let slip that now and then I feel the urge to head to the Mists, and have great fun when I do, but mostly I just run around Tyria, happily slinging clones with a song in my heart, left and right, to and fro, all the livelong day.

If your concerns are centered on PvP, I doubt you’ll find anything I have to say relevant. But your proposal wouldn’t be limited to PvP, hence my objections.

As for effectiveness, that’s a matter of opinion. I play all the professions (I have 32 characters, four of each profession, and 27 lvl 80s at the moment, for background), but I consider one of my Mesmers to be my “main”, and my four Mesmers as a group get far more playtime than my other characters (though I play them a lot, too).

I consider my Mesmers to be far and away the most effective characters I have, but Your Mileage May Vary, of course.

Here’s why I feel that way (condensed and incomplete)…

The Practical Recursionist

Killing things with conditions is never fast, because by their nature, conditions take time to do damage. So anyone looking to the Mesmer or any other class for quick kills would do well to avoid condition builds.

I rely extensively on clones to do damage, and clones only do damage with conditions, so all their limitations apply to me as a Clone Mesmer. Fortunately, I don’t go to my Mesmers for max damage or “efficiency” in the sense of killing things quickly (I’ll grab one of my Thieves or GC Rangers for that), but for fun.

“Fun” for me is being able to dive into absurdly huge crowds of hostile mobs and, after a lot of dodge-clone spawning, phase retreating, blocking (if using the scepter) and, in general, extremely careful tactical management, emerge victorious — usually with full health, my robes unsullied and ready to immediately do it again.

Exploding clones, AOEs and condition stacks are ideal for these scenarios, because even though each mob doesn’t die quickly, they all die eventually, because they all take damage in parallel as the conditions wear them down.

I also find soloing most champions I happen upon to be fun, but it does take quite a lot of time to whittle them down with just me and my clones. Knowing I can, however, and knowing that I can do so reliably whenever I feel like it, is nice.

Which I guess is why I enjoy being a Clone Mesmer so much. Because no matter where I go, or what I do, or what is happening around me, I’m a total badkitten, do whatever I want, whenever I feel like it, almost never have to run away, and almost never die.

I walk the land without fear, and I see that it is good.

I’m sure that would be a different story altogether in PvP, but it’s worth noting that my solo and small-group encounters in WvW have been very encouraging to date, so maybe not. Having a ton of condition-stacking clones coming at you left and right can be a challenge even for experienced players who know how to follow and focus a Mesmer, so who knows?

Granted, not a lot of details to work with. As I mentioned, I’m still adjusting to the new normal. But I can say with great confidence that before the patch, I was in a very good place.

And so far, though an optimum trait arrangement is still in the works, I don’t see that changing.

The Clone Wars

Curunen.8729:

You’ve just stated the obvious – does that make using clones to apply conditions skillful or interesting?

It is interesting to me, which is why I do it. As to whether or not it is skillful, I suppose that depends on one’s criteria, and under what circumstances they are applied.

I find using clones enjoyable, to the point that I almost never use phantasms. Not only that, I (gasp!) rarely use shatters, either, and don’t care to be pushed into them (or other class mechanics, for that matter) because I’ve found over the years that such things become boring in themselves after being needed over and over, fight after fight.

For you see, long before this latest patch, I relied extensively on clones to do damage, even back when I was rolling with dual swords (before that got nerfed). I even used the scepter when the scepter wasn’t cool.

I really like clones. A lot.

Clones are my trade. I am a cloner. My name is Majic the Cloner. I arrange, design and sell cloneries.*

If you don’t share my enthusiasm for the use of clones, I have no quarrel, but suggesting that they be nerfed and that their use to apply conditions is “stupid” puts us inevitably in diametric opposition.

In a broader sense, you have my sympathy if you’re finding condition play boring, and maybe there are constructive ways to change that. But inferring that something other Mesmers enjoy is “stupid” isn’t one of them.

I dont agree with either the premise or substance of your proposal, because I don’t think all Mesmers should be expected to suffer fewer options to appease one Mesmer.

…

* With apologies to Roger the Shrubber.

Curunen.8729:

Clones don’t do power damage – I don’t see anyone complaining about that in power builds. What is wrong with the idea that they don’t do condition damage?

Because conditions builds that rely on clones to apply conditions do rely on condition damage.

This is, in fact, the very thing you complained about when you said it’s “even more stupid now that it is one of the most strongest options in condition play.”

If you don’t care for it, that’s fine, but I hope you can understand why poisoning the well isn’t going to promote constructive discussion.

Curunen.8729:

Propositions

1. Nerf clones to NOT apply conditions. Yes, I’m serious – zero conditions.

In other words, eliminate other builds to make your preferences the only viable choices.

Then use the word “stupid” to describe alternatives because, you know, it would be stupid for anyone not to see things your way.

Berserker will be an elite specialization for the Warrior which emphasizes damage through the use of special Berserker gear.

Oh wait. That’s what all Warriors are already.

Donari.5237:

/grins at Majic and points at her own post right after Palador’s

JINX.

A combination of me leaving a reply window open a bit long and great minds thinking alike.

Edit: And yeah, a suggestion thread would be great.

/get_out_of_my_mind!

Palador.2170:

What we need is some inventive (and slightly demented) charr to get a hold of some of those Aetherblade lifters and spinners, combine them, and over charge them before installing them around LA.

Another fun choice would be jump pads like those around the Tequatl boss fight area.

Either way…

BEST. IDEA. EVER!

ThePahkage.2684:

I disagree. It’s better that things are more spread out. Less congestion.

Less congestion because after the newness wears off, everyone will be back in the other cities.

Just putting waypoints next to key vendors would work fine, because intra-city waypoint travel is much faster than travel between maps.

Putting things too far apart just makes me wish I had a mount — and I don’t even want mounts in GW2.

Or maybe… just maybe… that’s the plan.

/conspiracy_theory

It’s a nice, open layout, and I really like what they’ve done with the place, but yeah.

Absent the addition or relocation of a couple of well-placed waypoints, I won’t be spending time there because other cities like Divinity’s Reach and Rata Sum are much better choices for basic services.

Xar.1387:

We are a guild of 3 guys

Nope, ur not a guild.
You’re just a a group that calls itself a guild.

This is one of the reasons why I don’t join guilds.

As long as dodging is in the game, this is how it will be.

Yup. It’s in the game now, and it works great!

Thanks for suggesting it and campaigning for it.

Don’t worry, I’m sure they’ll blow it up again soon. Or maybe the giant lobster will come to life and run amok.

I like it, though. Reminds me of Disneyland, or maybe Sea World.

You don’t have to look — and if you accidentally see a spoiler, just unsee it.

Great to see you in Lion’s Arch, Gaile.

Thanks for hanging out and helping people get their bearings.

It reminds me of Epcot Center.

But much less expensive to visit.

ShadowAlteros.6125:

Lets hope it will have some better updates till then, farewell!
Have a nice playtime! :]

Definitely visit Lion’s Arch before you log out, though.

It’s like Epcot Center now — without the astronomical entrance fee.

I recommend taking a break and checking back later.

Sometimes it takes longer than others, and there have been times where I’ve considered GW2 virtually unplayable, but over the years I’ve found that eventually, I’m glad I came back.

I hope someday you find the same.

Maybe they’ll just blow it up a little, next time.

And who knows? Maybe this time the Karka just want to be friends.

Teennine.3901:

I understand that not every person is going to feel the same way about GW2, ANet, and these issues as I do, but maybe you could take your negative posts to a thread that’s not my nice simple little thank you thread. :P

Well, it’s probably moot anyway, at this point.

Now that the patch is out, it’s certain that threads like this one will be pushed down the stack to eventual oblivion by hundreds of new threads about new issues, because such is the ecology of the forums.

So before that happens forever, I’ll just reiterate…

Thanks, ArenaNet.

ArenaNet: We Make Tomorrow Look Like Yesterday.™

.

(With apologies to VersaLife Corporation.)

ArmoredVehicle.2849:

I never mentioned an ideal price for the expansion. Personally I expected a 35€ one at most which would have been fair in my book, not paying more than that.

Thanks for answering. Everyone has their price.

I think it’s still too early to know whether HoT is going to be worth the price or not. There’s still a lot we don’t know, so pre-purchasing is an act of faith.

A lot of people were specifically upset about the character slot issue, and said so, which made it fairly simple for ArenaNet to do something about it. They certainly didn’t satisfy everyone (you only get it if you pre-purchase, for example), but it was a step in the right direction.

I was asking for specifics because that’s what ArenaNet would need, and I’m curious. A lot of complaints here and elsewhere are expressions of vague dissatisfaction or accusations of greed, incompetence or ill intent on the part of ArenaNet, and because they tend to be nebulous, unfocused and personal in nature, there’s really not much ArenaNet could do about them. Those kinds of complaints are usually impossible to resolve proactively.

That said, now it’s up to ArenaNet to make the case for buying the expansion, and my advice is not to buy it unless you’re satisfied with the terms.

We’ll see how it goes.

A Little Short

fellyn.5083:

Who did I insult and how. If I may ask?

I took the reference to “short memories” as a collective insult, but admittedly am on a somewhat short fuse given all the vitriol flying around (just as I come back to the game after a long hiatus and want to get back into the community, no less), so please accept my heartfelt apology for flying off the handle and misinterpreting your intent.

It’s easy to do that in text discussions without the benefit of tone of voice, body language and other cues, and I suspect if we were talking in person we’d get along fine. We don’t have to agree on everything (or even anything) to get along.

I think the bone of contention here is that in my culture it is customary to express gratitude when someone makes a conciliatory gesture. Doing so is not a capitulation of principle, surrender of social status, submission to servitude or license for abuse. It’s just saying thanks.

If you’re not satisfied and/or don’t think ArenaNet deserves thanks, I fully respect your right to feel that way and have absolutely no compunctions with us seeing things differently.

If you can do the same, we’re good. If not, maybe we can work it out.

ArmoredVehicle.2849:

A cheaper price tag if you havent figured it out already.

I haven’t figured it out because you haven’t said it.

What’s the price?

Bris.7984:

Stop defending them “Majic.4801” like they are familly!You should consider that is easier for everyone to stand and hand over the cash like Bill Gates if there where something real to consider in that expansion…Just use more brain power and think what they offer and you truly gain…Think of what they did with GW2 core game when ppl asked to show…they broke alot of good things…and they still do!And don’t make me write a full list of…This is not funny…and you don’t play with ppl minds like a God,because you own a game!

I’m not defending anyone. I’m just trying to figure out what some people are upset about that others aren’t. In most cases it’s pretty straightforward, in others it’s not.

So I’m asking.

The Heart Of The Matter

Fenrir.6183:

The complaint is not about new players getting more. It’s about an expansion pack priced at a full game price when it will feature nowhere nearly enough content to justify that price.

This is yours, but there are actually several complaints woven together that all revolve around questions of value, perceived value, and the nature of online gaming.

Some of them are reasonable and well-articulated, like yours, while others are unreasonable and sometimes barely coherent.

ArenaNet is being bombarded with all of them, so untangling all of it and drawing some sort of sensible line can’t be easy, and it’s clear that some players simply cannot be appeased, no matter what.

I think offering a character slot was a nice gesture, but the only way to resolve the question of the expansion’s value is to make the case to players.

So far, we’ve been given a decent amount of information, but for many players, not enough to decide whether to lay down their hard-earned cash for Heart of Thorns.

Making that decision easier is ArenaNet’s job, so here’s hoping they get on it ASAP.

Oh right! On top of everything else, the new Lion’s Arch!

It’s like Christmas in June.

ArmoredVehicle.2849:

Many people that seem so happy about the char slot are also forgetting 1 thing: char slots can be bought with in game gold in a matter of days.

People have been easily blinded by the char slot that arenow hailing Anet as gods. I find it pathetic as it doesnt address the main issue.

That you aren’t getting the expansion for free? That you don’t consider the 7000 hours of game time you’ve already gotten as being worth the price you paid? Was this a problem when the game was being sold for $10? Is this a problem when the prices of other games go down over time?

You’re claiming other players are “easily blinded”, but doesn’t seem that there’s anything ArenaNet could do to satisfy you.

What would it take?

Setting aside the technicalities, it’s a noble sentiment, and it’s great to have you as part of the Guild Wars 2 community.

Nicely done.

Actually, the player outcry was so strong that the Planet 4, Moon 4 Caldari Navy Assembly Plant sustained significant thermal hull damage.

So technically, this may well have been another “Burn Jita”.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

All you people should consider this episode to rub ppl the wrong way and make them forget abouty Gw2 destroying the player base, and hampering A-nets business, and if this happens NC Soft will pull the plug.

Then you’ll earned yourself a character slot but lost the game. Though I like a the second char slot tbh.

Sorry, not quite sure what to make of that.

I would actually prefer they be weaker and mobile, but that’s probably just me.

The new Mokittenefinitely has potential, but its arrival is a bit tardy for my tastes.

Having taken several months off myself, both this year and last, after the trait changes and some other missteps alienated me from the game, I feel pretty comfortable saying this looks like a good time to come back.

The Jaws of Defeat

Sister Swiftspell.1869:

IS it possible that the self-defeatist is the one projecting it onto others while not acknowledging it in self?

Indeed it is. It is also possible to miss the point that attempting to discourage people from encouraging good behavior is bad behavior.

We can disagree about ArenaNet’s motives — no harm, no foul, we are all entitled to believe what we want — and that is not in dispute.

Responding positively to good behavior encourages more good behavior. Responding negatively to good behavior discourages it.

To the extent my own response to negative behavior seems negative, case in point: I am responding positively ArenaNet by thanking them, and negatively to fellyn by not doing so.

If this is truly a case of not understanding why thanking someone for doing something good (for whatever reason) is appropriate, then I’m more than happy to explain further, because failing to understand that is a terrible handicap to carry through life, but that doesn’t seem to be at issue.

Just to reiterate, I’m not in any way suggesting players shouldn’t criticize ArenaNet or take them to task if they think they’re doing something wrong. I do it all the time and don’t mince words about it, either.

If people prefer to think ArenaNet is ignoble, greedy, evil or whatever, that is likewise their prerogative — although doing so usually speaks more of them than of ArenaNet (often to a degree that is downright embarrassing to witness even from the most remote of perspectives).

But there’s absolutely nothing wrong with thanking ArenaNet (or anyone else) for doing something nice (it is nice to be heard, acknowleged and given something of value in good faith), which is what some players have chosen to do in this thread, and there’s no reason why any player should be expected to defend doing so.

Bhawb.7408:

If only this patch hit later I could do a drunk stream when my parents were gone. They might ask questions if I get smashed at like noon on a Tuesday though.

Just tell them what happened to the Necro.

Maybe they’ll join you.

fellyn.5083:

We as a community apparently have very short term memories.

Our memories are fine, and insulting other players for not sharing your negative world view doesn’t lend it more weight.

Even if your assumptions about ArenaNet are 100% correct, badgering other players for expressing appreciation for something positive is graceless, and matching good faith with scorn is counterproductive.

Such behavior is self-defeating and only encourages more of the same.

No thanks.

Zin.6170:

He is about to go over Necro condi but I have to go to class, hopefully one of you clowns can give a recap of it…….plz?

Please.

We prefer the term “harlequins” — or perhaps “punchinellos”.