Not really. WoW brought many people to MMOs. Its MMO developers that failed to further popularize and evolve/revolve games so pretty much all AAA tiles are different skin of the same game. Every AAA MMO since WoW sold more and more….and lost more and more people,. And now WoW lost almost half of their players and where are they? Surely not playing MMOs, 7-8 million (over various MMOs) players would be quite noticable if they actually went to other MMOs.
I don’t think you get my point. I don’t care about what is popular. When I started playing mmo’s, they were the opposite of popular, but we still developed them and played them. Ten years ago, years after I started playing them, I could count all the mmo’s available on my fingers w/o needing to count on my toes. Were they popular? oh kitten no! and people that played them were ridiculed. But one thing was for sure, they were not popular, and if anything – that helped to really drive the best of development that the genre has ever seen to this day.
Popular means nothing to me, and in fact I see it as a detriment to good development. What is popular becomes the standard, and becomes the template, because it drives investors to look for the most money, even if that direction actually leads to the lesser long-term money and to failure as the actual and intended end result. Success is a game that can self-sustain, continue to develop, and feed the families of the developers. Not gambles at a get rich scheme, maximized short-term revenue, investors padding their bank accounts by getting the quick money now while putting a game one a quick road to burnout and closure.
In the early years, the games were diverse, there was no clear-cut popular recipe. One game was very different from another. And that’s the point of my posts in this thread, I don’t want to see Anet change course to what has been popular, because that is not necessarily the sustaining course, nor the course towards good game development.
Ah, but it costs money. If what you are saying was true, indie MMOs would thrive, but truth is you expect some things from MMO. Standards for some things have indeed been set.
And truth is, yes there are niches that can function great, GW2 was supposed to fill that niche, but i guess greed took over and they indeed took “popular approach”. I guess their dream of “beating WoW” is still very much alive, and with decisons they made just confirm that. But theres also small matter of: such shifts have always backfired.
GW2 course is set, if they turn back they will indeed kitten off EVERYONE. But they also choose to compete with WoW and every WoW clone out there for same crowd. Their choice.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
You say MMOs are a service. I say they’re a form of entertainment. You think you’re more right than I am? People play MMOs to be served, or to be entertained.
Neither, really, but you are much closer. Technically, it’s considered under the category of printed matter such as books are. If you ever got into starting a software business, publishing software, aspects of development, to deal with governments and international protection laws, an MMORPG or any and all software is basically handled as a book.
You were closer to that early on, I wouldn’t use the term ‘entertainment’, I’ve seen mmo projects that were purely edgumicational (hehe). I mean like books are of all sorts, for entertainment and others for educational reasons etc. This is especially true in some small indie projects as well as to well known government agencies (e.g. NASA). But the uniting factor is code, which is printed matter, and thus falls into the category in which books dwell.
Try to play a GW2 without NCSoft providing a service.
Then come back and claim its like a book.
NCSoft is selling you a service.
Its on customer to decide is the service worth paying for or not. And by trends customers dont really find MMOs worth paying for to use it. Yes, it IS entertainment, but seems what MMOs provide entertain less and less people, and even less people want to pay for it, ESPECIALLY type of WoW and its clones and those have VERY defined traiits.
Its not a matter of what legally that falls under but from business point of view.
Generally, legislation on online, well, anything is very poor, thats why you have them make you sign legally non valid contract (as an example of legislation). But its slowly cathcing up, as now i can sell my account and ANet/NCSoft cant do anything but throw a warm smile at me.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
lol i like how vayne says percentages please, then goes on to say “i bet you less than 1%”…
anyways i liked that visual representation mika
I worked in retail, managing a computer store for a long time. The number of games that still have half their user base 8 years on is well well well under 1%. If you don’t believe me, do it this way. Hundreds of games come out every year. Every single year. Eight years on, most games have been long abandoned.
You can check the facts about this if you like but this isn’t quoting a figure. This is just basic common sense.
The same is true in book sales and movie sales. Most books sell 90% of all the copies they’ll ever sell in the first three months. The other 10% of sales are sold over the rest of their lifetime.
Except MMOs are not book but a service.
With your extensive expereience its a wonder you dont now the difference.
MMOs are a form of entertainment. Books are a form of entertainment. Do some research, just for once, and figure it out. Look at ALL the MMOs that are out for 8 years. Every one of them.
Now list ALL the MMOs that have 50% of their userbase left.
I’ll wait here.
So you DONT know difference between a book and a service.
ROFL
And – EvE, i kinda wonder you havent picked that up yet, 10 years and GROWING. No worries, it will sink in one day. There are more but its irrelevant.
What IS relevant that all games YOU think of are EQ/WoW copies, with same results as EQ/WoW.
Keep it coming bro!
But you better wait there rofl
Okay Eve is growing. You’ve named one MMO. Now how many MMOs have existed in that time period.
I think you’ll agree that most of them, practically all of them, have decreased significantly in playerbase 8 years after launch. DAoC, very popular, but with an extremely diminished playerbase 8 years after launch. The player base was well under half what it was during it’s height.
The fact is, you make up stuff and call them facts.
You say MMOs are a service. I say they’re a form of entertainment. You think you’re more right than I am? People play MMOs to be served, or to be entertained.
I think you just like to argue with me because you think it annoys me.
You are making less and less sense.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
lol i like how vayne says percentages please, then goes on to say “i bet you less than 1%”…
anyways i liked that visual representation mika
I worked in retail, managing a computer store for a long time. The number of games that still have half their user base 8 years on is well well well under 1%. If you don’t believe me, do it this way. Hundreds of games come out every year. Every single year. Eight years on, most games have been long abandoned.
You can check the facts about this if you like but this isn’t quoting a figure. This is just basic common sense.
The same is true in book sales and movie sales. Most books sell 90% of all the copies they’ll ever sell in the first three months. The other 10% of sales are sold over the rest of their lifetime.
Except MMOs are not book but a service.
With your extensive expereience its a wonder you dont now the difference.
MMOs are a form of entertainment. Books are a form of entertainment. Do some research, just for once, and figure it out. Look at ALL the MMOs that are out for 8 years. Every one of them.
Now list ALL the MMOs that have 50% of their userbase left.
I’ll wait here.
So you DONT know difference between a book and a service.
ROFL
And – EvE, i kinda wonder you havent picked that up yet, 10 years and GROWING. No worries, it will sink in one day. There are more but its irrelevant.
What IS relevant that all games YOU think of are EQ/WoW copies, with same results as EQ/WoW.
Keep it coming bro!
But you better wait there rofl
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
lol i like how vayne says percentages please, then goes on to say “i bet you less than 1%”…
anyways i liked that visual representation mika
I worked in retail, managing a computer store for a long time. The number of games that still have half their user base 8 years on is well well well under 1%. If you don’t believe me, do it this way. Hundreds of games come out every year. Every single year. Eight years on, most games have been long abandoned.
You can check the facts about this if you like but this isn’t quoting a figure. This is just basic common sense.
The same is true in book sales and movie sales. Most books sell 90% of all the copies they’ll ever sell in the first three months. The other 10% of sales are sold over the rest of their lifetime.
Except MMOs are not book but a service.
With your extensive expereience its a wonder you dont now the difference.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
You say the instances in Guild Wars 1 exist before you enter them, but I’m thinking those instances are created for you, when you enter them.
Yes that’s correct. If initiated by a script (as is the usual way) that script is attached to a trigger, the player interacts with that trigger (e.g. an NPC) which starts an instance and puts the player into that instance. The instance was not active before, not persistent, but was created and filled with mobs and whatnot when the player triggered the instance to begin. Usually such instances carry an ID, such a instance 0, or instance 1, or 2, or 88, sometimes numerical from 0 to how ever many are allowable to be running at the same time. Such as in some server side game codes I’ve seen limited to 256 instances of a single type of zone. Like zone ID A33 – instance #24 etc.
So yes, they don’t exist until the player creates it. Then when a player starts the instance, everything begins from it’s starting place. Like if a monster was pathed to circle the zone endlessly, in a persistent zone it would always be circling the zone and you would never know where it exactly was when you entered that persistent zone. But in an instanced zone, as soon as you enter the zone, that monster is in it’s spawn location, because the zone started when the player entered, and will end when they leave. I’m not a big fan of instances, but if used sparingly, they can add variety to an mmo.
Wrong, publishers/developers now start to run away for being named MMO, so you have MMOs that are called “online persistant shooters” and such
MMOs as a genre are losing players. WoW lost 5 million players in short time. Did you see other MMOs grow by 5 million? Nope. And why? Because genre is going downhill and ANet certanly joined the band by their 180 turnaround.
Um no, there have been quite a few games passed off as mmo’s in recent years when they clearly were not. Even before mmo’s became popular, there was a huge debate over some mmo’s that were clearly not mmo’s.
As for the genre failing or whatnot, I’ve been playing mmo’s and working on such indie projects since loong before WoW came around. Those were good times, and quite happy mmo’s were below the radar much like MUD gaming. If all WoW players, those that mostly started and ended with WoW, left the genre to never come back, and WoW closed it’s doors, the genre would be better off, though the damage already done. It’s not the genre failing, just WoW, though I’m sure it will drag down it’s remaining clones with it. Riddance. But Blizzard will do something, they have been around even before some of their loyal playerbase were even born.
Not really. WoW brought many people to MMOs. Its MMO developers that failed to further popularize and evolve/revolve games so pretty much all AAA tiles are different skin of the same game. Every AAA MMO since WoW sold more and more….and lost more and more people,. And now WoW lost almost half of their players and where are they? Surely not playing MMOs, 7-8 million (over various MMOs) players would be quite noticable if they actually went to other MMOs.
GW2 had some fresh ideas, but 2 months after launch they decided they want to be more like WoW. I mean, didnt they get the memo or sumtin?
Your assumptions are baseless. For one thing, you say that WoW has lost half their player base…sure….it’s an 8 year old game. How many 8 year old games haven’t lost their player base? By percentage please.
I bet you less than 1% of 8 year old games have retained more than half their player base. A hell of a lot less than 1%. For every hundred games that have come out 8 years ago., how many have half their player base left? How many people are still playing other games that came out around the time of WoW. Even Guild Wars 1 has lost far more than half it’s player base.
So saying that WoW has lost half it’s player base over that time sounds more like a success story than a problem.
Any game that retains half it’s player base for 8 years is doing extremely well.
Point here .
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Vayne here .
As usual
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
You say the instances in Guild Wars 1 exist before you enter them, but I’m thinking those instances are created for you, when you enter them.
Yes that’s correct. If initiated by a script (as is the usual way) that script is attached to a trigger, the player interacts with that trigger (e.g. an NPC) which starts an instance and puts the player into that instance. The instance was not active before, not persistent, but was created and filled with mobs and whatnot when the player triggered the instance to begin. Usually such instances carry an ID, such a instance 0, or instance 1, or 2, or 88, sometimes numerical from 0 to how ever many are allowable to be running at the same time. Such as in some server side game codes I’ve seen limited to 256 instances of a single type of zone. Like zone ID A33 – instance #24 etc.
So yes, they don’t exist until the player creates it. Then when a player starts the instance, everything begins from it’s starting place. Like if a monster was pathed to circle the zone endlessly, in a persistent zone it would always be circling the zone and you would never know where it exactly was when you entered that persistent zone. But in an instanced zone, as soon as you enter the zone, that monster is in it’s spawn location, because the zone started when the player entered, and will end when they leave. I’m not a big fan of instances, but if used sparingly, they can add variety to an mmo.
Wrong, publishers/developers now start to run away for being named MMO, so you have MMOs that are called “online persistant shooters” and such
MMOs as a genre are losing players. WoW lost 5 million players in short time. Did you see other MMOs grow by 5 million? Nope. And why? Because genre is going downhill and ANet certanly joined the band by their 180 turnaround.
Um no, there have been quite a few games passed off as mmo’s in recent years when they clearly were not. Even before mmo’s became popular, there was a huge debate over some mmo’s that were clearly not mmo’s.
As for the genre failing or whatnot, I’ve been playing mmo’s and working on such indie projects since loong before WoW came around. Those were good times, and quite happy mmo’s were below the radar much like MUD gaming. If all WoW players, those that mostly started and ended with WoW, left the genre to never come back, and WoW closed it’s doors, the genre would be better off, though the damage already done. It’s not the genre failing, just WoW, though I’m sure it will drag down it’s remaining clones with it. Riddance. But Blizzard will do something, they have been around even before some of their loyal playerbase were even born.
Not really. WoW brought many people to MMOs. Its MMO developers that failed to further popularize and evolve/revolve games so pretty much all AAA tiles are different skin of the same game. Every AAA MMO since WoW sold more and more….and lost more and more people,. And now WoW lost almost half of their players and where are they? Surely not playing MMOs, 7-8 million (over various MMOs) players would be quite noticable if they actually went to other MMOs.
GW2 had some fresh ideas, but 2 months after launch they decided they want to be more like WoW. I mean, didnt they get the memo or sumtin?
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
I’m trying to let you off the hook easy by saying it’s a good game,. but niche.
The entire number of people playin Eve right now at it’s maximum, after all these years, is under a sixth of the people who bought Guild Wars 2 accounts.
Niche? It’s one of the top 10 mmo’s on the market! It was “niche” 5+ years ago. What is this, a fishing competition with hooks and all? hehehe. Yes you are right at the most that have played EVE is the current peak. As it was true last year. And true the year before. Every year that statement has been true. Oh I get it, "EVE is dieing™ " k…. thanks for letting me know that… hehehe
Still, bottom line: CCP sets a good example of how to maintain good customer vs. developer relations. I think Anet could learn a thing or two by such an example, and wouldn’t have some of the current relation problems if so. Though I still give Anet some credit there, they are trying more than many other games that I’ve seen.
Yes, its niche, ultra niche, but their results speak louder than any Vayne out there.
What do you consider more succesful, <insert big car manufacturer and youll probably not miss> that actually loses 100-700 Euros for every car they sell or Ferrari.
Opposed to GW2/WoW/insert AAA MMO here that lose players by millions.
And its very funny how 500k subs for ultra niche game is considered bad when any AAA mainstream game, other than WoW, has less. But again, inexperience of poster of that shows and speakes louder than his words ever will.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Yup, its not only MMOs they measure, as i suspected.
Yes, we are to believe 5 million just from WoW, but pretty much ALL AAA MMOs lost players, moved to some obsure F2P MMOs
oh wait, no they didnt, they moved to different GENRE
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
NO GAME HAS SAME AMOUNT OF PLAYERS AS IT HAS SUBSCRIPTIONS.
I let it sink in rofl
And it STILL doesnt have anything to do with EvE still growing.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Guild Wars 2 isn’t instanced though. It’s zoned, but the zones are open. That means anyone can freely enter them if there’s room.
In other words, if you enter an instance in Guild Wars 1 by yourself, no one else can EVER enter your instance. It’s done. It’s not open world.
In Guild Wars 2, if you leave divinities reach by yourself, other people can follow you out. That makes it, in the language that has evolved around MMOs anyway, NOT an instance.
(multi-quote conversation removed for5001 length requirement hehe)
Well it’s more than that, really. It’s really the functions of the server coding that defines it.
1. it provided persistent zones. This means that even though there may be no players in a given zone, it continues to run as a process on the server including the tracking of MOB’s and such. All mmo’s are zone based, just some handle how the zones are loaded by the client, differently; pre-loading and such to make it seem like huge areas.
2. A large amount of players in the same area/zone. Has been debatable, but really this is usually greater than 64 players at the very minimum, debatable though and I’m not sure I agree entirely. Traditionally, at least since EQ2, it has been around 100 players, then the system would instance an overflow. And not just as a lobby, but with full combat ability, otherwise it’s not a “game” but a social hub.
Add those two together and you have an mmo server. And doing so changes the way you handle your network protocols, such as the ability to use TCP/IP over UDP/IP or such variations. Very much performance issues. Such as in EQ1, to those vets that played it early on (no instanced/overflow zones at all), you would see characters run in circles in the distance, vs. another non-mmo game using a more performance grade protocol and settings for more accurate tracking beyond a distance limit.
Technically, some protocols can theoretically handle 64k+ players in a zone, but tracking becomes very …mushy, and odd results happen (e.g seeing other players running backwards, so fun). But with fine tuning, you can usually get 100-300 players stable in a given area and depending on how demanding such things as scripting and animations and mobs and projectile tracking and more – may be in such a game. GW2 is actually pretty hefty as I observe it, which is a big reason players need broadband to mostly play.
So yes, it makes a BIG difference, the way an mmo functions compared to your typical multi-player game. But now that mmo’s are more “popular” I see a lot of marketing teams refer to this game and that game as an mmo when technically they are far from it, just to sell more, ya know?
Wrong, publishers/developers now start to run away for being named MMO, so you have MMOs that are called “online persistant shooters” and such
MMOs as a genre are losing players. WoW lost 5 million players in short time. Did you see other MMOs grow by 5 million? Nope. And why? Because genre is going downhill and ANet certanly joined the band by their 180 turnaround.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
And it does not matter at ALL that EvE is a sandbox in this context. Of course, EvE being the champ doesnt suit you PR crap rofl
Eve Online has made ~$300 Million in Revenue in it’s life time (10 years). If GW2 keeps on making the revenue it has been making, it will surpass Eve Online in Revenue in ~ 3 years (and that doesn’t include the revenue from the first 3 million game sales.) Eve Online has been bringing in revenue of about 30 Million per year, GW2 made $25 Million in the last 3 months quarter. Eve online is certainly a success, but it is not a “champ” when compared to other MMOs revenues.
Math is hard. Multiplying 3 numbers is enormous obstacke for some people. like 500000*15*12
Chinese players pay no where near $15 a month in subscription. $15 a month would not be sustainable in China, no one would be able to afford to play the game.
EvE is not WoW ROFL
That makes no sense. How is that a reply to people in china are not paying $15 a month in subscription fees? You just say “rofl” to things that you have no real reply for. You said I didn’t know what subscription means, I show you a definition from Webster, and it proves that hourly subscription is certainly a subscription, and all you can say is “rofl”. Just means you have no real reply to something that proves you wrong.
Again, man, really, keep it coming. rofl
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
And it does not matter at ALL that EvE is a sandbox in this context. Of course, EvE being the champ doesnt suit you PR crap rofl
Eve Online has made ~$300 Million in Revenue in it’s life time (10 years). If GW2 keeps on making the revenue it has been making, it will surpass Eve Online in Revenue in ~ 3 years (and that doesn’t include the revenue from the first 3 million game sales.) Eve Online has been bringing in revenue of about 30 Million per year, GW2 made $25 Million in the last 3 months quarter. Eve online is certainly a success, but it is not a “champ” when compared to other MMOs revenues.
Math is hard. Multiplying 3 numbers is enormous obstacke for some people. like 500000*15*12
Chinese players pay no where near $15 a month in subscription. $15 a month would not be sustainable in China, no one would be able to afford to play the game.
EvE is not WoW ROFL. EvE is ultra niche game that doesnt have to cater to the masses.
WoW is not sustainable with subscription in China, true, thats WHY it runs on few cents per hour and no box cost.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
“I farm the champ train 11 hours a day and I don’t see any problems with the game.”
Yup that seems to be leet in GW2.
11 hours a day MIND BLWON .
Yah, and they throw a tantrum if someone kills a champ “out of order” rofl
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
“I farm the champ train 11 hours a day and I don’t see any problems with the game.”
Yup that seems to be leet in GW2.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
And it does not matter at ALL that EvE is a sandbox in this context. Of course, EvE being the champ doesnt suit you PR crap rofl
Eve Online has made ~$300 Million in Revenue in it’s life time (10 years). If GW2 keeps on making the revenue it has been making, it will surpass Eve Online in Revenue in ~ 3 years (and that doesn’t include the revenue from the first 3 million game sales.) Eve Online has been bringing in revenue of about 30 Million per year, GW2 made $25 Million in the last 3 months quarter. Eve online is certainly a success, but it is not a “champ” when compared to other MMOs revenues.
Math is hard. Multiplying 3 numbers is enormous obstacle for some people. like 500000*15*12
I figure speaking about what is revenue and how it matters very little is pretty much out of the question
Keep at it bro
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
And thats Blizzards payment model in China. They lump it in with subs.
Pay per Hour certainly is a sub, it is nothing more than a smaller version of Paying Per Month. Paying a sub with in game money, which Eve does, is not a sub though /rolleyes
So you dont know definition of subscription. It reckons. Its because people like you Blizzard can redefine subscription.
Guess you are Vaynes “target audience”.
From Webster:
Subscription:
an agreement that you make with a company to get a publication or service regularly and that you usually pay for in advance
So yup, hourly subscription is certainly a subscription. Looks like to me you are the one that wants to redefine what a subscription is.
Hourly subscription?
Rofl, keep it coming bro
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
there was multiple elses that “offered same kind of experience”. And EvE kept growing.
WoW and GW2 keep shrinking.
Oh really? Can you list a few, just for my amusement?
Yep, WoW is down to 14 times the entire user base of Eve, assuming that everyone who has a subscription is an individual, something I know that’s not true. Guild Wars 2 probably has more players than Eve too…but that is harder to prove.
Of course, if I can’t prove something, I at least admit it.
Yup, WoW lost “only” 5 million players. Is that bragging rights or what.
And how many players did Eve gain in that time period? How do you know they’re players and not just people with second and third accounts?
Oh, right, you don’t.
I’m not sure WoW ever had a population as low as Eve does at its height…and I don’t even like WoW and wouldn’t give that game the time of day. I think Eve is a much better game. But it’s clearly niche.
Ahahahahha, yes, EvE is a giant conspiracy where people pay for 10 accounts just to give larger sub numbers ROFL
Keep it coming bro
EvE is one of the rare games that arent ashamed of the numbers and you can track concurrency and they regualry publish sub numbers. But then its the only growing MMO, what numbers has ANet gave us? Eh, some lunch and thats IT. Oh yes, they said occasionaly they see raised numbers, but since you yourself stronly argued all they say is BS, well, thats BS too.
Yep, I’ve seen the concurrency figures of Eve. Rather low, those. I guess a niche game is going to have that.
This is where you enormous lack of experience in MMOs shows. Sorry dude, but educate yourself first.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
there was multiple elses that “offered same kind of experience”. And EvE kept growing.
WoW and GW2 keep shrinking.
Oh really? Can you list a few, just for my amusement?
Yep, WoW is down to 14 times the entire user base of Eve, assuming that everyone who has a subscription is an individual, something I know that’s not true. Guild Wars 2 probably has more players than Eve too…but that is harder to prove.
Of course, if I can’t prove something, I at least admit it.
Yup, WoW lost “only” 5 million players. Is that bragging rights or what.
And how many players did Eve gain in that time period? How do you know they’re players and not just people with second and third accounts?
Oh, right, you don’t.
I’m not sure WoW ever had a population as low as Eve does at its height…and I don’t even like WoW and wouldn’t give that game the time of day. I think Eve is a much better game. But it’s clearly niche.
Ahahahahha, yes, EvE is a giant conspiracy where people pay for 10 accounts just to give larger sub numbers ROFL
Keep it coming bro
EvE is one of the rare games that arent ashamed of the numbers and you can track concurrency and they regualry publish sub numbers. But then its the only growing MMO, what numbers has ANet gave us? Eh, some lunch and thats IT. Oh yes, they said occasionaly they see raised numbers, but since you yourself stronly argued all they say is BS, well, thats BS too.
And whatever EvE gained, even if 1 its still 5 million less lost than WoW.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
there was multiple elses that “offered same kind of experience”. And EvE kept growing.
WoW and GW2 keep shrinking.
Oh really? Can you list a few, just for my amusement?
Yep, WoW is down to 14 times the entire user base of Eve, assuming that everyone who has a subscription is an individual, something I know that’s not true. Guild Wars 2 probably has more players than Eve too…but that is harder to prove.
Of course, if I can’t prove something, I at least admit it.
Yup, WoW lost “only” 5 million players. Is that bragging rights or what.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
there was multiple elses that “offered same kind of experience”. And EvE kept growing.
WoW and GW2 keep shrinking.
Oh really? Can you list a few, just for my amusement?
Look it up yourself, the burden is on YOU to prove there wasnt since YOU brought it up.
Check back in when you do
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
And thats Blizzards payment model in China. They lump it in with subs.
Pay per Hour certainly is a sub, it is nothing more than a smaller version of Paying Per Month. Paying a sub with in game money, which Eve does, is not a sub though /rolleyes
Eve has 3 players each with 165,000 accounts. lol
Wow, thats best you could come up with. But its no better or worse than you other “arguments”.
Keep it coming bro
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
And thats Blizzards payment model in China. They lump it in with subs.
Pay per Hour certainly is a sub, it is nothing more than a smaller version of Paying Per Month. Paying a sub with in game money, which Eve does, is not a sub though /rolleyes
So you dont know definition of subscription. It reckons. Its because people like you Blizzard can redefine subscription.
Guess you are Vaynes “target audience”.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
So, now a year later…endgame is: same dungeon runs, same running around orr doing event chains, and addition of champ trains. And for what? Gear that noone needs for anything (apparently) BUT with addition that imbalances whole game even more (sans sPvP) because of higher stats and no content that requires higher stats.
Nice going Vayne, youve proven the point all by yourself.
That exactly the point. The game was designed from day 1 to let players play whatever they choose to play. Any zone is open to any player at max level, mini games, jumping puzzles, secret events, WvW, new content every 2 weeks, There is more content then anyone can possibly consume. Yet those same players complained that there was nothing to do other then run dungeons and do event chains because that was the most rewarding content and they refused to play anything but the most rewarding content.
Which is ironic because some players complain this game is turning into WoW when I am sad to say the problem is players refuse to play this game in a different way then they play WoW thats problem right there. Thats whats creating these issues right there. Ohh I have to have BiS at any costs and as quickly as possible even though the game tries really hard to ensure BiS is not needed any entirely optional just like cosmetic armor is. Why should I play in Lornar’s Pass, I make more money in Orr. Play Mini games? whats the point? Jumping puzzles? not enough reward based on effort required etc.. etc..
Let me ask you this… why are playing amasing around running dungeons, Orr event farming or champion trains? is it because its the only content the game offers? hmm nope definitely not the case. Its because people don’t care about the content they care about the rewards. So really what do you expect Arenanet to do if players are tying their hands up ? Would removing these rewards satisfy those players you’re speaking off yourself you think?
They did the best possible thing they could do. Give them the rewards they crave, make them take long to get to keep them happy for as long as possible by providing them a goal they can work towards and make these rewards entirely optional so that players who enjoy content rather then rewards would not have to give up the content they enjoy to get those rewards further more make sure that playing enough of any content will get you those rewards anyway in the long run. What could they possibly do thats better then what they did really?
Quite contrary, ANet tied their own hands up by caving in to small vocal whiney minority. Now that they started gear grind treadmill they have to deal with its consequences, and guess what – dealing with that same consequences is what gear grind treadmill games have been (unsuccessfully) dealing with since EQ. Furthermore, GW2 wasnt even designed for gear treadmill which will make it even worse.
And, one big big point: people who whined about no endgame STILL have no endgame, just new tier of gear for sake of new tier of gear.
So what you’re saying now is that a minority of players do dungeons, do champion trains and farm Orr Events? cause If so I would love to know where the majority of the players are because I have yet to see people complain that there are just too many people playing in mid – low level maps, doing jumping puzzles or playing mini games while the opposite is an extremely common topic that you yourself even mentioned in your post to Vayne. As much as you dont want it to be the case people who value rewards over content are the overwhelming majority not a vocal minority.
You really dont get it, sorry dude, youve proven in the past that its pretty much not worth responding to you.
Sure, dont worry I am sure the reply will be of value to people who might be a bit more objective so no waste there. Feel free to ignore me when I reply to your posts I dont mind at all.
I grant you your wish and ignore you, post history is there for everyone to see.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Im so shocked at how many people are so ill informed, assuming that they will add more tiers of gear the grind is insane they are caving to the 1%‘ers aka hardcore players….when they don’t realise everything they are saying is false and to be brutally honest those vocal forum complainers are the 1%’ers -_-
You are shocked at how you yourself are so ill informed
READ MY SIG
And the best they told was “we HOPE we wont add new tier” rofl
Anyway, you dont even need new tier for endless gear grind, they already have boatload of grind in this tier, dont worry, youll et new gear to grind every few months.
I read it as “should have” not “would have” so…
Also, I’m not seeing there anything that implies BiS gear – it only implies that at 80, you “should” already be competitive with others – which you are. Assuming you have rares.
Really?
Read it AGAIN rofl, seems it didnt sit well, hey read it as many times as you need to sink in.
K. I’ll copy-paste.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Everyone, including casual- no need to explain what this means.
by level 80 should have – again, “should” not “would”
best statistical loot – does not imply Best-in-stats-gear
We want – does not mean “we will”
Equal in power base – tell me how much difference it is to have ascended over exotic?
Now everyone can see it still didnt sink in with you.
Its plain statement that cannot be taken any other way.
Keep chirping rofl
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
So, now a year later…endgame is: same dungeon runs, same running around orr doing event chains, and addition of champ trains. And for what? Gear that noone needs for anything (apparently) BUT with addition that imbalances whole game even more (sans sPvP) because of higher stats and no content that requires higher stats.
Nice going Vayne, youve proven the point all by yourself.
That exactly the point. The game was designed from day 1 to let players play whatever they choose to play. Any zone is open to any player at max level, mini games, jumping puzzles, secret events, WvW, new content every 2 weeks, There is more content then anyone can possibly consume. Yet those same players complained that there was nothing to do other then run dungeons and do event chains because that was the most rewarding content and they refused to play anything but the most rewarding content.
Which is ironic because some players complain this game is turning into WoW when I am sad to say the problem is players refuse to play this game in a different way then they play WoW thats problem right there. Thats whats creating these issues right there. Ohh I have to have BiS at any costs and as quickly as possible even though the game tries really hard to ensure BiS is not needed any entirely optional just like cosmetic armor is. Why should I play in Lornar’s Pass, I make more money in Orr. Play Mini games? whats the point? Jumping puzzles? not enough reward based on effort required etc.. etc..
Let me ask you this… why are playing amasing around running dungeons, Orr event farming or champion trains? is it because its the only content the game offers? hmm nope definitely not the case. Its because people don’t care about the content they care about the rewards. So really what do you expect Arenanet to do if players are tying their hands up ? Would removing these rewards satisfy those players you’re speaking off yourself you think?
They did the best possible thing they could do. Give them the rewards they crave, make them take long to get to keep them happy for as long as possible by providing them a goal they can work towards and make these rewards entirely optional so that players who enjoy content rather then rewards would not have to give up the content they enjoy to get those rewards further more make sure that playing enough of any content will get you those rewards anyway in the long run. What could they possibly do thats better then what they did really?
Quite contrary, ANet tied their own hands up by caving in to small vocal whiney minority. Now that they started gear grind treadmill they have to deal with its consequences, and guess what – dealing with that same consequences is what gear grind treadmill games have been (unsuccessfully) dealing with since EQ. Furthermore, GW2 wasnt even designed for gear treadmill which will make it even worse.
And, one big big point: people who whined about no endgame STILL have no endgame, just new tier of gear for sake of new tier of gear.
So what you’re saying now is that a minority of players do dungeons, do champion trains and farm Orr Events? cause If so I would love to know where the majority of the players are because I have yet to see people complain that there are just too many people playing in mid – low level maps, doing jumping puzzles or playing mini games while the opposite is an extremely common topic that you yourself even mentioned in your post to Vayne. As much as you dont want it to be the case people who value rewards over content are the overwhelming majority not a vocal minority.
You really dont get it, sorry dude, youve proven in the past that its pretty much not worth responding to you.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Im so shocked at how many people are so ill informed, assuming that they will add more tiers of gear the grind is insane they are caving to the 1%‘ers aka hardcore players….when they don’t realise everything they are saying is false and to be brutally honest those vocal forum complainers are the 1%’ers -_-
You are shocked at how you yourself are so ill informed
READ MY SIG
And the best they told was “we HOPE we wont add new tier” rofl
Anyway, you dont even need new tier for endless gear grind, they already have boatload of grind in this tier, dont worry, youll et new gear to grind every few months.
I read it as “should have” not “would have” so…
Also, I’m not seeing there anything that implies BiS gear – it only implies that at 80, you “should” already be competitive with others – which you are. Assuming you have rares.
Really?
Read it AGAIN rofl, seems it didnt sit well, hey read it as many times as you need to sink in.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Im so shocked at how many people are so ill informed, assuming that they will add more tiers of gear the grind is insane they are caving to the 1%‘ers aka hardcore players….when they don’t realise everything they are saying is false and to be brutally honest those vocal forum complainers are the 1%’ers -_-
You are shocked at how you yourself are so ill informed
READ MY SIG
And the best they told was “we HOPE we wont add new tier” rofl
Anyway, you dont even need new tier for endless gear grind, they already have boatload of grind in this tier, dont worry, youll et new gear to grind every few months.
Because they’ve added so many new tiers in the year the game was out…oh wait…
You did get new gear to grind every few months…oh wait…but since it was rushed out it was only trinkets. True grind is yet to come, you got a taste with weapons.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Im so shocked at how many people are so ill informed, assuming that they will add more tiers of gear the grind is insane they are caving to the 1%‘ers aka hardcore players….when they don’t realise everything they are saying is false and to be brutally honest those vocal forum complainers are the 1%’ers -_-
You are shocked at how you yourself are so ill informed
READ MY SIG
And the best they told was “we HOPE we wont add new tier” rofl
Anyway, you dont even need new tier for endless gear grind, they already have boatload of grind in this tier, dont worry, youll et new gear to grind every few months.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Nope, the forum went belly up, so there’s nothing there anymore. It was gw2forum.com though, if you’re interested. And I don’t really care if you believe me or not. Your belief is not required to make something true or not true. There were enough people on these forums to remember how many threads there were about nothing to do at 80. I’m not making it up and if you don’t want to believe me, that’s perfectly fine. I’m happy with that.
No, I won’t show a friends list screenshot, because there are people in these forums immature enough to harass my friends. I’ve already been annoyed in game by people on these forums (which is fine because they’re annoying me, not anyone else). I wouldn’t subject anyone else on my friends list to some of the people who post here.
Again, if you don’t believe me, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t change the truth one iota.
Indeed my belief is not required, but showing proofs of what you say it’s another matter if you want to clarify your point of view to the readers.
I don’t know anything about your forum, but I remember that in this forum there were VP whiners, but also a lot of people that suggested them to change their minds because this was not a WoW clone.
And about your friendlist, do as I did, no one can be arrassed in that way
First of all, the same sorts of things you see on this forum, you see on other forums. Just look at Guild Wars 2 guru if you don’t believe me. There’s negativity on forums everywhere…in most MMOs, not just Guild Wars 2.
But people really were complaining about not having anything to do. The legendary wasn’t worth going for, because it was too much of a grind for the average person, and they’d hit level 80 run some dungeons and that was it.
Remember back then there were no guaranteed daily rares from world bosses, dungeons didn’t drop the same kind of loot, even, there were no Scarlet invasions. End game back then if you were a PvE’er were dungeon runs (fractals didn’t exist either) and running around Orr doing the event chains.
For a lot of people, they were farming, but for what? They already had the highest stats…and not everyone cares about skins (my sons for example).
So, now a year later…endgame is: same dungeon runs, same running around orr doing event chains, and addition of champ trains. And for what? Gear that noone needs for anything (apparently) BUT with addition that imbalances whole game even more (sans sPvP) because of higher stats.
Nice going Vayne, youve proven the point all by yourself.
For a guy who thought he knew what this game was about (and a guy who loves quoting devs), why don’t you quote the bits about Guild Wars 2 not having an end game? Oh I see, you conveniently forget to quote the stuff that proves you wrong. I get it.
The game was advertising as having no end game and devs said directly what you’d be doing at level cap is pretty much the same stuff you’d be doing while leveling.
I didn’t just prove my point. I proved you only listen to what the devs say when they don’t deliver on their “promises”. But you ignore their promises if it suits your convenience to do so.
Ahahahahahahhahahah
I didnt mentioned endgame YOU did, and you explained quite nicely how GW2 didnt and doesnt have and endgame, and that new tier of gear is still not an endgame and therefore people you mentioned that whined about endgame STILL dont have an endgame but your plain ignorance prevents you from admitting it.
Oh, and its YOU who keep repeating that developers say a lot of stuff and that its all BS and nothing they say matters tiny bit.
Did anyone every tell you laughing at people is rude? Just curious.
You contradict yourself with almost every post and then try to pin that on me. Having fun?
Have any more pearls for us today?
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
So, now a year later…endgame is: same dungeon runs, same running around orr doing event chains, and addition of champ trains. And for what? Gear that noone needs for anything (apparently) BUT with addition that imbalances whole game even more (sans sPvP) because of higher stats and no content that requires higher stats.
Nice going Vayne, youve proven the point all by yourself.
That exactly the point. The game was designed from day 1 to let players play whatever they choose to play. Any zone is open to any player at max level, mini games, jumping puzzles, secret events, WvW, new content every 2 weeks, There is more content then anyone can possibly consume. Yet those same players complained that there was nothing to do other then run dungeons and do event chains because that was the most rewarding content and they refused to play anything but the most rewarding content.
Which is ironic because some players complain this game is turning into WoW when I am sad to say the problem is players refuse to play this game in a different way then they play WoW thats problem right there. Thats whats creating these issues right there. Ohh I have to have BiS at any costs and as quickly as possible even though the game tries really hard to ensure BiS is not needed any entirely optional just like cosmetic armor is. Why should I play in Lornar’s Pass, I make more money in Orr. Play Mini games? whats the point? Jumping puzzles? not enough reward based on effort required etc.. etc..
Let me ask you this… why are playing amasing around running dungeons, Orr event farming or champion trains? is it because its the only content the game offers? hmm nope definitely not the case. Its because people don’t care about the content they care about the rewards. So really what do you expect Arenanet to do if players are tying their hands up ? Would removing these rewards satisfy those players you’re speaking off yourself you think?
They did the best possible thing they could do. Give them the rewards they crave, make them take long to get to keep them happy for as long as possible by providing them a goal they can work towards and make these rewards entirely optional so that players who enjoy content rather then rewards would not have to give up the content they enjoy to get those rewards further more make sure that playing enough of any content will get you those rewards anyway in the long run. What could they possibly do thats better then what they did really?
Quite contrary, ANet tied their own hands up by caving in to small vocal whiney minority. Now that they started gear grind treadmill they have to deal with its consequences, and guess what – dealing with that same consequences is what gear grind treadmill games have been (unsuccessfully) dealing with since EQ. Furthermore, GW2 wasnt even designed for gear treadmill which will make it even worse.
And, one big big point: people who whined about no endgame STILL have no endgame, just new tier of gear for sake of new tier of gear.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Nope, the forum went belly up, so there’s nothing there anymore. It was gw2forum.com though, if you’re interested. And I don’t really care if you believe me or not. Your belief is not required to make something true or not true. There were enough people on these forums to remember how many threads there were about nothing to do at 80. I’m not making it up and if you don’t want to believe me, that’s perfectly fine. I’m happy with that.
No, I won’t show a friends list screenshot, because there are people in these forums immature enough to harass my friends. I’ve already been annoyed in game by people on these forums (which is fine because they’re annoying me, not anyone else). I wouldn’t subject anyone else on my friends list to some of the people who post here.
Again, if you don’t believe me, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t change the truth one iota.
Indeed my belief is not required, but showing proofs of what you say it’s another matter if you want to clarify your point of view to the readers.
I don’t know anything about your forum, but I remember that in this forum there were VP whiners, but also a lot of people that suggested them to change their minds because this was not a WoW clone.
And about your friendlist, do as I did, no one can be arrassed in that way
First of all, the same sorts of things you see on this forum, you see on other forums. Just look at Guild Wars 2 guru if you don’t believe me. There’s negativity on forums everywhere…in most MMOs, not just Guild Wars 2.
But people really were complaining about not having anything to do. The legendary wasn’t worth going for, because it was too much of a grind for the average person, and they’d hit level 80 run some dungeons and that was it.
Remember back then there were no guaranteed daily rares from world bosses, dungeons didn’t drop the same kind of loot, even, there were no Scarlet invasions. End game back then if you were a PvE’er were dungeon runs (fractals didn’t exist either) and running around Orr doing the event chains.
For a lot of people, they were farming, but for what? They already had the highest stats…and not everyone cares about skins (my sons for example).
So, now a year later…endgame is: same dungeon runs, same running around orr doing event chains, and addition of champ trains. And for what? Gear that noone needs for anything (apparently) BUT with addition that imbalances whole game even more (sans sPvP) because of higher stats.
Nice going Vayne, youve proven the point all by yourself.
For a guy who thought he knew what this game was about (and a guy who loves quoting devs), why don’t you quote the bits about Guild Wars 2 not having an end game? Oh I see, you conveniently forget to quote the stuff that proves you wrong. I get it.
The game was advertising as having no end game and devs said directly what you’d be doing at level cap is pretty much the same stuff you’d be doing while leveling.
I didn’t just prove my point. I proved you only listen to what the devs say when they don’t deliver on their “promises”. But you ignore their promises if it suits your convenience to do so.
Ahahahahahahhahahah
I didnt mentioned endgame YOU did, and you explained quite nicely how GW2 didnt and doesnt have and endgame, and that new tier of gear is still not an endgame and therefore people you mentioned that whined about endgame STILL dont have an endgame but your plain ignorance prevents you from admitting it.
Oh, and its YOU who keep repeating that developers say a lot of stuff and that its all BS and nothing they say matters tiny bit.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Nope, the forum went belly up, so there’s nothing there anymore. It was gw2forum.com though, if you’re interested. And I don’t really care if you believe me or not. Your belief is not required to make something true or not true. There were enough people on these forums to remember how many threads there were about nothing to do at 80. I’m not making it up and if you don’t want to believe me, that’s perfectly fine. I’m happy with that.
No, I won’t show a friends list screenshot, because there are people in these forums immature enough to harass my friends. I’ve already been annoyed in game by people on these forums (which is fine because they’re annoying me, not anyone else). I wouldn’t subject anyone else on my friends list to some of the people who post here.
Again, if you don’t believe me, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t change the truth one iota.
Indeed my belief is not required, but showing proofs of what you say it’s another matter if you want to clarify your point of view to the readers.
I don’t know anything about your forum, but I remember that in this forum there were VP whiners, but also a lot of people that suggested them to change their minds because this was not a WoW clone.
And about your friendlist, do as I did, no one can be arrassed in that way
First of all, the same sorts of things you see on this forum, you see on other forums. Just look at Guild Wars 2 guru if you don’t believe me. There’s negativity on forums everywhere…in most MMOs, not just Guild Wars 2.
But people really were complaining about not having anything to do. The legendary wasn’t worth going for, because it was too much of a grind for the average person, and they’d hit level 80 run some dungeons and that was it.
Remember back then there were no guaranteed daily rares from world bosses, dungeons didn’t drop the same kind of loot, even, there were no Scarlet invasions. End game back then if you were a PvE’er were dungeon runs (fractals didn’t exist either) and running around Orr doing the event chains.
For a lot of people, they were farming, but for what? They already had the highest stats…and not everyone cares about skins (my sons for example).
So, now a year later…endgame is: same dungeon runs, same running around orr doing event chains, and addition of champ trains. And for what? Gear that noone needs for anything (apparently) BUT with addition that imbalances whole game even more (sans sPvP) because of higher stats and no content that requires higher stats.
Nice going Vayne, youve proven the point all by yourself.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
I’ve had people in my guild who played Eve completely and left over that debacle and didn’t return. Some of course did. But you insist I know nothing about something, because I don’t agree with you.
That’s like me saying you know nothing about Guild Wars 2 because you don’t agree with me. I didn’t say it, because I don’t think that way.
Some? Pretty much everyone returned, it was a protest quit, started out so. And really, many of those that “quit”, quit their alt accounts hehe. It was a message sent, and a message which in fact was received. Active accounts not only recovered, but surpassed the previous records.
But we are talking players that have been active for years, in a game that has increased it’s subscriber base consistently since launch ten years ago. GW2 is not old enough to be in that category, true loyalty has not been established yet. In fact I still have many players on my friends list that haven’t logged back into this game for over six months, and in a game that requires no subscription fee. I have new friends dropping out all the time, just unimpressed with the direction things have changed to. Oh and don’t get me started in on inactive guild lists.
IMO Anet is taking a huge gamble, and I can’t say they will be the better off for it in the long run. I have both games installed (I usually play 2 mmo’s), but I’m less certain how long GW2 will remain installed the way things have been going. I’ve never uninstalled the other, though I was part of that protest quit, respectively. Such a thing won’t work here, and I doubt I’d try if it could work, there in no built up loyalty either way, not to them and not to us, obviously. Went through the same thing with SWG, they wanted new/different players, reaching out to some other group of players they didn’t even have yet, invented the full-surprise NGE update and hemorrhaged accounts to never return. Many of use then found EVE, the obvious replacement, and CCP has been good to us.
Some people stopped and never went back and other people left because they felt the game later on had become a full time job. But more to the point, most players that start playing Eve don’t continue playing Eve. It really and truly is a niche game. It survives on subscriptions, not on numbers. If it didn’t have a monthly fee, it would be quite dead.
How many Eve players have more than one account, do you know? Do most players have two accounts? If not what percentage does.
There aren’t half a million people playing Eve, there are half a million subscribers, which is another matter entirely. And it’s still a game that’s a sandbox. Most of the content is made by the playerbase..rather than CCP.
There arent 7 million players playing WoW and there arent <insert number of players> playing GW2. Its SAME for every MMO. Just brought memory of guy doing 40 man raid…..by himself and all HIS accounts.
And it does not matter at ALL that EvE is a sandbox in this context. Of course, EvE being the champ doesnt suit you PR crap rofl
If you want to believe Eve is the champ, go right ahead. You can believe anything you want. It doesn’t make it true, and it’s certainly not provable, but go ahead and believe it. I’m sure all the millions of Eve players will back you up.
I dont have to believe anything, its a FACT.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
I’ve had people in my guild who played Eve completely and left over that debacle and didn’t return. Some of course did. But you insist I know nothing about something, because I don’t agree with you.
That’s like me saying you know nothing about Guild Wars 2 because you don’t agree with me. I didn’t say it, because I don’t think that way.
Some? Pretty much everyone returned, it was a protest quit, started out so. And really, many of those that “quit”, quit their alt accounts hehe. It was a message sent, and a message which in fact was received. Active accounts not only recovered, but surpassed the previous records.
But we are talking players that have been active for years, in a game that has increased it’s subscriber base consistently since launch ten years ago. GW2 is not old enough to be in that category, true loyalty has not been established yet. In fact I still have many players on my friends list that haven’t logged back into this game for over six months, and in a game that requires no subscription fee. I have new friends dropping out all the time, just unimpressed with the direction things have changed to. Oh and don’t get me started in on inactive guild lists.
IMO Anet is taking a huge gamble, and I can’t say they will be the better off for it in the long run. I have both games installed (I usually play 2 mmo’s), but I’m less certain how long GW2 will remain installed the way things have been going. I’ve never uninstalled the other, though I was part of that protest quit, respectively. Such a thing won’t work here, and I doubt I’d try if it could work, there in no built up loyalty either way, not to them and not to us, obviously. Went through the same thing with SWG, they wanted new/different players, reaching out to some other group of players they didn’t even have yet, invented the full-surprise NGE update and hemorrhaged accounts to never return. Many of use then found EVE, the obvious replacement, and CCP has been good to us.
Some people stopped and never went back and other people left because they felt the game later on had become a full time job. But more to the point, most players that start playing Eve don’t continue playing Eve. It really and truly is a niche game. It survives on subscriptions, not on numbers. If it didn’t have a monthly fee, it would be quite dead.
How many Eve players have more than one account, do you know? Do most players have two accounts? If not what percentage does.
There aren’t half a million people playing Eve, there are half a million subscribers, which is another matter entirely. And it’s still a game that’s a sandbox. Most of the content is made by the playerbase..rather than CCP.
There arent 7 million players playing WoW and there arent <insert number of players> playing GW2. Its SAME for every MMO. Just brought memory of guy doing 40 man raid…..by himself and all HIS accounts.
And it does not matter at ALL that EvE is a sandbox in this context. Of course, EvE being the champ doesnt suit you PR crap rofl
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
EVE has 500k accounts. I would be surprised if it has even half as many players…
What does it matter? The way Blizzard counts “subs” they may have 1/2-1/3 players also. + all gold sellers, do we count them out too?
FACT is EvE is still growing and GW2 and WoW lost crapload of players.
Eve went into other markets they were not in before. Before they entered into other markets, they were not growing. Guild Wars 2 will grow as it enters into other markets as well.
GW2 already lost few times more players than EvE ever had.
GW2 FIRST have to actually get where it WAS at launch.
And EvE was growing still, before “entering new markets”….and afterwards. Its just that they hit 500k mark a bit sooner.
Of course, its slow but STEADY growth over 10 years.
Name another MMO that can claim the same.
It matters because once the players start to quit (which of course doesn’t happen until there is something else to offer the same kind of experience) the numbers will start falling rapidly. It’s not like the guy with 5 accounts will only suspend one of them when he quits.
there was multiple elses that “offered same kind of experience”. And EvE kept growing.
WoW and GW2 keep shrinking.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Anyway don’t show your support for ANET if you don’t like the direction they are going so they won’t make another WOW like game….
Yes this game is very much like WoW. I mean they both have swords and staffs. It must be a WoW clone.
Saying a game is like WoW doesn’t make a game like WoW. Just sayin’.
Ultimate defense….of EVERY WoW clone*….and they all failed.
Just sayin.
Oh, and losing 5 MILLION players is NOT successful.
The ONLY MMO that still gains players is EvE.
*except Rift, they pretty much advertised as WoW clone. Didnt help much either way.
First of all, comparing a themepark MMO to a sandbox MMO isn’t really convincing me of anything.
Oh look, niche Eve sandbox MMO has a growing population. They’re reached half a million players. Okay. Not really all that much for a theme park MMO, but certainly respectable for a sand box.
More to the point, how many of Eve’s players are casual? How easy is it to play Eve casually? You can just sort of log in, come back a couple of weeks later and log in again?
I don’t see how anyone can compare these two games…maybe individual aspects, but that’s not what you’re doing. You’re talking about success.
Secondly, the conclusions you’re extrapolating from information you have is flawed. Why did the games that mimic WoW fail? You’ve drawn a specific conclusion as if they’ve all failed for the same reason.
Many games failed because they were so buggy they were virtually unplayable (Vanguard/Warhammer). Others failed for other reasons. Some in fact, haven’t failed at all, they’ve just had limited success.
There’s a certain way of thinking that puts all your eggs in one basket. This game failed because of X, that game failed because of Y. There are very few games that fail for a single reason. Trying to show that you know the reason any of the games failed makes me question your entire premise.
Ahahahhahhahahaahah
Yes, obviously, its not “fooling” you. MMO is MMO. You can compare MMOs as much as you wish and its a FACT EvE is champion in that field.
Limited success? You call WoW that now? To me WoW was a success, sorry. But its long time now.
Saying you can compare an MMO that’s a sandbox to an MMO that’s at themepark is saying you can compare golf to basketball because they’re both sports. Sure it can be done, but the validity of doing so must be questioned.
No one ever said WoW wasn’t successful. However, WoW came out ages ago, over 8 years, in a completely different market. Even Blizzard was forced to scrap Titan because it wasn’t going to work. So where’s their next “big” MMO?
Every other MMO has met with limited success in comparison. You bring up a game with half a million subs, from a playerbase where most people have multiple accounts. How many people are actually playing Eve? Do you know?
Again. Limited success….rofl. Buzzword for unsuccessful. Im sure your “target audience” dig that.
Of course, basketball is more successful than golf. EASY rofl Not that it matters, but just for fun.
People in Blizzard are not fools, theyve taken Titan back to drawing board to TRY to make something that will work, yet another WoW clone wouldnt really cut it.
And how many active players WoW has? You are probably unaware how Blizzard counts “subs”, otherwise you wouldnt talk nonsense, at least SUBS in EvE are SUBS by definition.
Tell me the difference between WoW sub numbers and Eve Sub numbers, how are Eve ‘Subs" by definition, but WoW’s is not?
pay per hour is not a sub.
And thats Blizzards payment model in China. They lump it in with subs.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
With all this arguing about MMO X vs MMO Y I think we’re losing sight of the point that ArenaNet kittened off a whole bunch of people with this Ascended gear – both in principle (prefer skill-based vs gear-based) and in practice (don’t like grinding mats/crafting/whatever in order to prepare to have fun).
I can say that many players who get kittened off at one game go find another.
Yep. Many players. And many players have stayed. This has been my point all along.
No one knows how many people would have left if Anet stayed the course. It’s not possible to know.
In your mind you believe Anet is losing more players than they’re keeping. I don’t believe that’s true…and I’m pretty sure Anet doesn’t either. A dev has told me concurrency numbers are on the rise and have been for some time.
I agree you were screwed over by the changes…but that doesn’t make them bad changes. They’re just changes that don’t work for people who share your sentiments.
I don’t know if they’re losing more than they’re gaining or not. I do know they lost me. So if anyone’s keeping track of numbers, they can add +1 to the tally.
I was getting away from that losing vs gaining argument, not adding to it. How ’bout we get back on topic?
Edit: And Vayne, stop putting words in my mouth. You do that virtually every time you quote someone. It’s no wonder people get on your case so much.
You said “many players get kittened off”..and while that’s no doubt true, if those players are a minority, then your point is moot.
What’s his point? I thought the extent of what he was saying was just that he and some other players were upset with the direction of the game.
It’s not just that some players are kittened off and it’s not about one post. The faction that is kittened off are saying (including Chuo) that this was a huge portion of the player base. It wasn’t just like her and a couple of friends. It was a lot of people.
Alright. But is that what he said right there? I could only gather from that post that he and other people are upset with the game.
What he said right there is no different than what he said in countless other threads. People are mad. We’ve known those people were mad since last November. They’ve been made since then…at a game they’re disappointed in.
The direction of the game changed…no one denies it. Ten months on and they’re still mad. They come to the forums of this game to complain about ascended gear..that was announced last November. You’d think by now they’d have figured out that the game has changed, it’s not for them, and they’d find a game that was.
Because saying OMFG there’s vertical progression in the game for ten months solves what? Is Anet going to stop and take it all out tomorrow?
I don’t like the vertical progression either. I’m not in complete disagreement with what’s being said. The only difference is, I’m not taking the inclusion of vertical progression as a personal attack. Anet saw a problem, Anet moved to fix the problem. I don’t agree it was the best solution by ten months on? I think people would have moved on by now, instead of hanging around to complain on a forum over a change that was announced so long ago.
Even I think the game is too grindy. So?
I come to laugh at how you try to tell theres no gear grind treadmill.
“Gear escalator”……priceless
I find it best comedy in quite a while.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Keep in mind its not just people who are mad at the grind and people who like the grind. Those two are in the minority. From what i have seen a majority of players in gw2 dont care what anet comes out with or the direction of the game they just want to play.
Thats true….until it starts to actually affect them. And it takes a bit to affect due to inertia.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
It is still a very good game for casuals. Proof: my wife
The implementation of ascended gear was a mess, though, and I don’t like it in the least. Trinkets weren’t that bad, but the weapon crafting is difficult for casuals, and if we are to craft our ascended armours as well, I am severely miffed.
I feel for you, but expect more of the same, since grinds will get longer and longer with each gear they introduce and then either level cap (so do it all again) or another tier.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Yes OP, all the things they do because of the casuals
Its funny though that farmers (NOT hardcores BUT farmers) rise up and say “its all in the name of casuals” rofl
Hardcores left this game.
Im hardcore and can see crap theyre doing. Its not becasue of casuals or hardcores, its because of farmers and moving to eastern market. Need to meet certain Korean grinder standards.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Anyway don’t show your support for ANET if you don’t like the direction they are going so they won’t make another WOW like game….
Yes this game is very much like WoW. I mean they both have swords and staffs. It must be a WoW clone.
Saying a game is like WoW doesn’t make a game like WoW. Just sayin’.
Ultimate defense….of EVERY WoW clone*….and they all failed.
Just sayin.
Oh, and losing 5 MILLION players is NOT successful.
The ONLY MMO that still gains players is EvE.
*except Rift, they pretty much advertised as WoW clone. Didnt help much either way.
First of all, comparing a themepark MMO to a sandbox MMO isn’t really convincing me of anything.
Oh look, niche Eve sandbox MMO has a growing population. They’re reached half a million players. Okay. Not really all that much for a theme park MMO, but certainly respectable for a sand box.
More to the point, how many of Eve’s players are casual? How easy is it to play Eve casually? You can just sort of log in, come back a couple of weeks later and log in again?
I don’t see how anyone can compare these two games…maybe individual aspects, but that’s not what you’re doing. You’re talking about success.
Secondly, the conclusions you’re extrapolating from information you have is flawed. Why did the games that mimic WoW fail? You’ve drawn a specific conclusion as if they’ve all failed for the same reason.
Many games failed because they were so buggy they were virtually unplayable (Vanguard/Warhammer). Others failed for other reasons. Some in fact, haven’t failed at all, they’ve just had limited success.
There’s a certain way of thinking that puts all your eggs in one basket. This game failed because of X, that game failed because of Y. There are very few games that fail for a single reason. Trying to show that you know the reason any of the games failed makes me question your entire premise.
Ahahahhahhahahaahah
Yes, obviously, its not “fooling” you. MMO is MMO. You can compare MMOs as much as you wish and its a FACT EvE is champion in that field.
Limited success? You call WoW that now? To me WoW was a success, sorry. But its long time now.
Saying you can compare an MMO that’s a sandbox to an MMO that’s at themepark is saying you can compare golf to basketball because they’re both sports. Sure it can be done, but the validity of doing so must be questioned.
No one ever said WoW wasn’t successful. However, WoW came out ages ago, over 8 years, in a completely different market. Even Blizzard was forced to scrap Titan because it wasn’t going to work. So where’s their next “big” MMO?
Every other MMO has met with limited success in comparison. You bring up a game with half a million subs, from a playerbase where most people have multiple accounts. How many people are actually playing Eve? Do you know?
Again. Limited success….rofl. Buzzword for unsuccessful. Im sure your “target audience” dig that.
Of course, basketball is more successful than golf. EASY rofl Not that it matters, but just for fun.
People in Blizzard are not fools, theyve taken Titan back to drawing board to TRY to make something that will work, yet another WoW clone wouldnt really cut it.
And how many active players WoW has? You are probably unaware how Blizzard counts “subs”, otherwise you wouldnt talk nonsense, at least SUBS in EvE are SUBS by definition.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
EVE has 500k accounts. I would be surprised if it has even half as many players…
What does it matter? The way Blizzard counts “subs” they may have 1/2-1/3 players also. + all gold sellers, do we count them out too?
FACT is EvE is still growing and GW2 and WoW lost crapload of players.
Eve went into other markets they were not in before. Before they entered into other markets, they were not growing. Guild Wars 2 will grow as it enters into other markets as well.
GW2 already lost few times more players than EvE ever had.
GW2 FIRST have to actually get where it WAS at launch.
And EvE was growing still, before “entering new markets”….and afterwards. Its just that they hit 500k mark a bit sooner.
Of course, its slow but STEADY growth over 10 years.
Name another MMO that can claim the same.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
EVE has 500k accounts. I would be surprised if it has even half as many players…
What does it matter? The way Blizzard counts “subs” they may have 1/2-1/3 players also. + all gold sellers, do we count them out too?
FACT is EvE is still growing and GW2 and WoW lost crapload of players.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Anyway don’t show your support for ANET if you don’t like the direction they are going so they won’t make another WOW like game….
Yes this game is very much like WoW. I mean they both have swords and staffs. It must be a WoW clone.
Saying a game is like WoW doesn’t make a game like WoW. Just sayin’.
Ultimate defense….of EVERY WoW clone*….and they all failed.
Just sayin.
Oh, and losing 5 MILLION players is NOT successful.
The ONLY MMO that still gains players is EvE.
*except Rift, they pretty much advertised as WoW clone. Didnt help much either way.
First of all, comparing a themepark MMO to a sandbox MMO isn’t really convincing me of anything.
Oh look, niche Eve sandbox MMO has a growing population. They’re reached half a million players. Okay. Not really all that much for a theme park MMO, but certainly respectable for a sand box.
More to the point, how many of Eve’s players are casual? How easy is it to play Eve casually? You can just sort of log in, come back a couple of weeks later and log in again?
I don’t see how anyone can compare these two games…maybe individual aspects, but that’s not what you’re doing. You’re talking about success.
Secondly, the conclusions you’re extrapolating from information you have is flawed. Why did the games that mimic WoW fail? You’ve drawn a specific conclusion as if they’ve all failed for the same reason.
Many games failed because they were so buggy they were virtually unplayable (Vanguard/Warhammer). Others failed for other reasons. Some in fact, haven’t failed at all, they’ve just had limited success.
There’s a certain way of thinking that puts all your eggs in one basket. This game failed because of X, that game failed because of Y. There are very few games that fail for a single reason. Trying to show that you know the reason any of the games failed makes me question your entire premise.
Ahahahhahhahahaahah
Yes, obviously, its not “fooling” you. MMO is MMO. You can compare MMOs as much as you wish and its a FACT EvE is champion in that field.
Limited success? You call WoW that now? To me WoW was a success, sorry. But its long time now.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Do you really think a niche game today can survive the same way a niche game did 8 years ago?
EvE says hi and tells you its 10 years and still going strong and growing.
Opposed to every EQ/WoW clone and….WoW itself.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Sadly I hate this too – i feel i have to log on every day just to keep up.
I can’t just power-through in the weekend to catch up on stuff i didn’t do over the week. It’s becoming frustrating and repetitive. Getting tired of all this nonsense.
I just want to get Ascended armor done so I don’t have to do daily nothing for at least a year or so.
Bad luck, but it doesnt work that way, ANet has chosen their path, prepare for more of the same in the future
You see, if they turn back it will be no different than exotics so they added whole layer of…..nothing
And a little bit of something >>>>>>> than a whole pile of nothing ;P
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
I’m contesting your premise that they’re better off focusing on a niche market instead of trying to appeal to everyone…in other words, you’re entire premise.
Okay, let’s for argument sake say Anet changes and focuses on a niche. What if another game comes along that suits that niche as well or better. They’re completely screwed. The idea of player retention is to retain players…as many as possible. Not five guys who might still be playing in five years.
No big business and MMOs have become big business, can function that way. It’s not realistic.
And yet, having a niche game kept GW1 afloat for 7 years. Having a successful niche game can be successful if you’re good at your niche. No one except WoW managed to be successful without having a niche to settle in.
Yup, but WoW is falling, lost 5+ million players.
And its funny at the same time, every WoW clone had to settle with a niche, usually those who like the setting (Star Wars, LOTR, Conan world) and who mostly dont give a kitten about gear treadmill.
Of course, they had to do sanctions which were direct result of their failure.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
If you want ascended weapons for all of your characters in a reasonable amount of time it will take alot of grind. You have to do temples and world bosses whenever you can as well as grinding dungeon paths. I dont know how many alts you have or whether you have made an ascended weapon but i dont think you understand how much of a pain it really is. Even people with tons of gold who do nothing but dungeons temples and world bosses everyday still end up short of emperyeal fragments and dragonite ore.
Its fine, if you play 12 hours/day and grind for it you will get those….in reasonable time.
But…..armor is coming very soon and still there are infusions, lets not forget runes/sigils…and well trinkets.
AND a matter of no new content. You have to grind LAUNCH content for it. In other games you at least get something new to grind.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
I should first apologize. This isn’t a personal attack on you specifically. Unfortunately, you didn’t cover your tracks well
I’d like to argue that people exaggerate how little it takes to make one, as well.
There are many posters here (the forums, not this thread, specifically) that claim “this is easy, I got it in 2 days/weeks, etc”, without specifically getting into the any details. Omitting things like 11 hours a day, farm a dungeon X amount of times are exactly the things that make such bold claims important.
I wasn’t aware I needed to cover my tracks. I don’t see the merit of pulling up quotes from me that were on the state of the game around a year ago which is completely different from the state of the game now.
You’re also ignoring the fact that in the same post I talked about how I kitted out a brand new character in more or less 2 weeks in full exotics and ascended stuff (granted the laurels took a bit of time to get) around a month ago. It took less than half the time to achieve that than my first character which is the one I was using back then.
I didn’t craft any gear for it and I didn’t use dungeon tokens to get gear for it that I didn’t obtain on that specific character which was a combination of gear from CoF and CoE.
It took around 50 hours. For further comparisons sake my first character took 90 hours just to hit level 80. All that being said I don’t get the point of cherry picking some quotes from me on the state of the game a year ago and trying to use that in your argument against me now.
I also never said it took little effort to get an ascended that I remember. You’ll have to find quotes of me saying that which you seem to be good at. I believe that I’ve always said people are too impatient and think they should be able to get them instantly or with very little effort. Also I’ve always encouraged people to take their time with it and not go out of their way to get them because that does make it into a chore.
You are right, beside few delusinal people noone denies its gear grind treadmill.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
