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Superior Sigil of Fire not coming off CD

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

@OP

Here’s a note from wiki:

“Cooldown Sigils will enter cooldown even if they have no actual effect.”

This may very well happen that the sigil triggers without any effect and can be percieved to be in a constant cooldown.

“All things equal, the mainhand cooldown sigil will trigger before the offhand cooldown sigil.”

Another possibility that while your sigil in main hand was in CD, then you placed it in your off-hand, that the sigil is now waiting for itself to get off CD from the main hand and wait forever.

Thanks.

Regarding the affect, as I mentioned before, the affect of the SSoF is really hard to miss. It’s not like the affect of SSoPurity (as referenced in the wiki) where the proc would occur, but would have no effect.

And yes, it has happened with the SSoF, specifically, when the target is killed by the crit, the sigil still procs, the graphic fires, but no damage is reported in the log.

To the second point, this was a consideration, but ample time had passed for the Sigil to come off cooldown before the hand change (it’s only 5 seconds).

Some help to a new player about lvling thief

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Only thing I would add is when you start AC, or get into the 30s, try to keep you equipment as upgraded as possible. Masterwork (green) is usually cheap and readily available on the TP. At least upgrade every 10 levels, though I’d suggest 5. Power/Vit stats will probably yield the most benefit for you early on.

I know randomfightfan suggests against it, but while it may not matter as much in open world, it can make a difference in dungeons. Considering how cheap it is, not doing so only handicaps you.

Also, with respect to tokens, just save them. Karma as well. As you can use karma to buy pieces of lvl 80 Exotic armor. Another cheap way to insta-gear @ 80.

GL!

Sigil of Fire not coming off CD

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Superior Sigil of Fire not coming off CD

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Hi.. ok.. no solution, but simple work around seems to be to keep the SSoF weapon(s) in the same hand, don’t move it to the other hand when changing weapons. Either leave it, or unequip and requip to the other hand.

To make things easy, I put another SSoF on the sword. So, when swapping between S/P and P/P the SSoF equipped weapon will always be in main hand. D/D was also MH, so, swapping to S/D or P/D(if you really want to) is an option.

Ran tonight’s session like this, swapping and changing weapons often. Never encountered a “dry spell” of procs.

For what it’s worth off-hand either had a stacking sigil (bloodlust) or static sigil (force).

As to the OP, I’m curious if you’ve noticed the same problem with other sigils? Do you think it’s a bug that’s specific to the Sigil of Fire? You might have discovered a bug that’s common to all on-crit sigils.

I haven’t tested this, but will look into it. And report back when I’ve had a chance to test.

Thanks for reading & GL

Superior Sigil of Fire not coming off CD

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Ok.. something interesting.

It’s may not be just weapon changing. But the method of changing weapons.

Here’s what I had been doing:

- Pistol w/ SSoF in main hand

when I swapped, I dragged pistol main hand, to off hand, and equipped sword.

This causes the no proc.

If you unequip Pistol, sending it inventory, no issues. And re-equip to offhand all good.

Odd….

Changes to ecto salvage from rares

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Much thanks, Mr. Smith.

Superior Sigil of Fire not coming off CD

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Ok.. quick update.

Method performed as above, but after weapon changing, I performed over 20 attacks coming out of stealth using HK and no procs occurred. Continued attacking, and stealthing whenever possible continued to yield crits with no procs.

Game update just took place, so, will continue for a bit.

Superior Sigil of Fire not coming off CD

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

I appreciate any advice on how to improve the results and eliminate any number of variables.

The main reason that I ask if others have, or can reproduce my situation is to isolate it to an issue with the siglis and weapon changes. Could it be a combo of my equipment/traits/etc? I dunno. Possibly, but have additional test conditions would help substantiate it.

Just as a note, using the HK would only give me the 1 attack coming out of stealth @ 100%, and then only @ 30% for it to proc. Obviously, I will still be able to notice any crits/procs while waiting to stealth again. So, it would grant me at least one gauranteed critical, not to be discounted. However, given the number of attacks, and crits I’ve experienced thus far, i don’t expect to see much change. Will test soon, and report back.

Changes to ecto salvage from rares

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Because it’s all economy and player related, when they hide stuff from us, they lose credibility, they lose trust that we place in them to tell us the truth, when this happens we also start to lose that feeling of family with the company that runs the game, no relationship without trust, no relationship, no players.

I agree fully with this. Undeclared changes do erode trust, and as pointed out in other threads ANet does have an issue with releasing undisclosed changes. This is a policy, or practice issue they really should address. No doubt.

OK, fotm loot is heavy nerfed at 30+ and arenanet refuse to admit and EVERY single player i ask on 40+ runs says the same (someone said they apologised 1-2 months after nerf, not sure about this)
And for dyes they were droping like 10 an hour (at least for me) and this was fix after 3-4 days, loot nerf in fotm after 2-3 months still not fixed. Do you get it now or i need to draw it for you?

And if your point refers to the above, I agree completely.

However, the two examples you give really aren’t representative of the current situation.

Both dyes and FotM are drop loot based, ectos are a function of salvages. Assuming the same methodology is used for both is baseless. If it were the same we would have seen a similar decrease in loot drops across the board- not just in salvage results.

Next, you don’t give the context of the dye patch. Prior to the fix, there was a patch where there was obviously an unintended change that drastically upped the drop rate for dyes. Anyone around at the time was aware of the unusual frequency of drops. The fix was a corrective measure. Nothing nefarious about that, albeit, unfortunate for the players.

As to the FotM, it’s unfortunate there wasn’t the level of player monitoring taking place there as was being done with Ectos. If the kind of player provided data was available there, as provided here, I’m sure a better response would have been forthcoming.

Finally, given the attention this issue is receiving (credit to John Smith), I’ll go under the belief that the current situation is the result of something unintentional being released and not as obvious as the dye drop bug. We’ll ultimately see how this resolves.

Superior Sigil of Fire not coming off CD

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Just as I thought.

If you really want to test the proc-rate, you need to spec for Hidden Killer (30pt CS), this will eliminate the Crit-change randomness.

If you are not proc-ing at a 30% rate, then you did found a bug.

Sure, I have no problem spec’ing into that and testing with that next time I log in. I agree, for that one attack coming out of stealth, it would give me a pure 30% rate to compare against.

It won’t stop a “really bad RNG” run. But it would elimate a variable factor.

However, I will just re-iterate, I played for a good while each time to verify, and after a reasonable time/kills no procs were fired. If you’re used to playing with this sigil, it’s really become apparent when it does not fire for any extended period of time. I don’t know if you’ve ever played with it, but even if you’re not looking at the combat log, it’s not something you tend to miss.

I know asking players to drop the gold for the sigils just to test is a bit much, so, hoping to hear back from a Dev eventually.

Superior Sigil of Fire not coming off CD

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

How can you tell that it is stuck on CD and not just having a bad luck proc-ing it again?

Basically, how are you testing this?

I explained the methodolgy above and since there’s no way to actually see if the sigil is on cool down, the only method I have is experimental.

I ran with a 60% crit chance. I used Veteran Oakhearts in queensdale because they allow me to do a number of “spamable” attacks, and allow me to get up Fury up as well taking crit to 80%.

Before swapping out a pistol for a sword, I can consistently get SSoF to proc on a single Oakheart kill, two kills at most.

After performing the swap out, I proceeded to kill numerous vets w/o seeing a proc in the combat log. None at all. Proceed to kill other randoms, no procs. Log out/Log in, SSoF procs as usual.

Really, really bad RNG? Sure absolutely. Possible. But I’m able to reliably repeat this.

I appreciate the scrutiny, but if I couldn’t duplicate the behavior, I wouldn’t have brought it to attention.

Which was the point of this post to see if anyone else could confirm or recreate my findings.

(edited by Mourningcry.9428)

Changes to ecto salvage from rares

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Fair enough… however, it may be worth considering that excess supply into the economy is potentially more damaging than deficits and therefore warrants more immediate action.

Damaging to whom? The answer to that is the crux of this matter.

Perhaps I wasn’t clear, but ultimately more damaging to the players.

Maybe I’m reading too much into your post, but are you suggesting excess supply, like the example I gave at the end of the post you quoted, would be a good thing for players? Care to elaborate on that if so?

Changes to ecto salvage from rares

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Remember the loot bug that increase rares dropping from low level foes? That issue was fixed in a matter of hours. There really does seem to be a pattern emerging throughout the history of this game. If it increases drops…fixed promptly…if it decreases drops….not so much. It’s kinda hard to draw any positive conclusions when the same things happen time and time again. Then ofc it doesn’t help when a rep comes out with a poor choice of words or a statement based on lack of knowledge, thus only hindering credibility further.

Fair enough… however, it may be worth considering that excess supply into the economy is potentially more damaging than deficits and therefore warrants more immediate action.

It’s also theorethically easier to choke off rates and then take the time to correct them to an appropriate level, rather than to preemtively increase rates as an answer to a potential deficit issue which leads to the excess supply problem.

Just saying that there are circumstances which do warrant consideration in various cases.

As an example, imagine if ectos salvages yeilded 3 ectos per salvage 100% of the time. Doesn’t take an economist to realizes the ramification of allowing that situation to persist for an extended time would be more detremental than what is currently being experienced.

(edited by Mourningcry.9428)

Soul-bound gear into the mystic forge.

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

I believe this has been raised before. If I recall correctly, it’s not an exploit.

Changes to ecto salvage from rares

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Mourningcry.9428

Hey all, just wanted to let you know I’m still working and I’ll keep you updated as soon as I have something to post.

Working on lie? Cause how hard is it to check loot tables? This is FotM stalth loot nerf story all over again.

Checking loot tables is easy. Checking everything that might possibly interact with them is not.

Just checking the loot tables would be like taking your car in because it’s been a bit sluggish when you step on the gas, and the mechanic thinking it’s all in your head because the “Check Engine” light isn’t on.

Well back when unidentified dyes were dropping like rain,fix and response were very quick, and loot still sucks in 38+ FotM, so defend them more please.

I dunno… How about because not all potential issues are as obvious as others? And perhaps not all solutions are equally easy to fix?

It’s not so much a question of defending Anet, but rather responding to baseless, illogical gibberish.

Baseless, illogical gibberish? Are you blind seriously?

Perhaps I am… why don’t you enlighten us on how you came to the conclusion that the current situation is at all representative of the dye and FotM issues you relate it to. Please, go ahead.

Changes to ecto salvage from rares

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Hey all, just wanted to let you know I’m still working and I’ll keep you updated as soon as I have something to post.

Working on lie? Cause how hard is it to check loot tables? This is FotM stalth loot nerf story all over again.

Checking loot tables is easy. Checking everything that might possibly interact with them is not.

Just checking the loot tables would be like taking your car in because it’s been a bit sluggish when you step on the gas, and the mechanic thinking it’s all in your head because the “Check Engine” light isn’t on.

Well back when unidentified dyes were dropping like rain,fix and response were very quick, and loot still sucks in 38+ FotM, so defend them more please.

I dunno… How about because not all potential issues are as obvious as others? And perhaps not all solutions are equally easy to fix?

It’s not so much a question of defending Anet, but rather responding to baseless, illogical gibberish.

Changes to ecto salvage from rares

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Mourningcry.9428

Fat chance. How can you explain everyone complaining that loot has been broadly nerfed? Databases store information on generally in tables on what can drop what and how often. It’s never ever an “error” to CHANGE numbers. To remove something completely I can believe as feasible, but to change something in a broad spectrum is hard to swallow.

There are what, eight T6 materials? For each one to receive a reduction in appearance would mean multiple database tables were altered. If there are 50 mobs and they have even only 10 group loot tables that means 10 different database tables were altered. That’s going to cause a lot of raised eyebrows.

John Smith’s posts are damage control. Any instability in the T6 market — especially dust — will cause a kneejerk reaction. People will spend CASH on gems because it is the path of least resistance to get dust right now. I guarantee you it is not an accident.

Despite being able to think of a couple of other implementation architectures for how drop results can be determined, without knowing explicitly how the actual implementation was done, care to explain how you know they’re all table based, and much less spread across multiple tables? Arrogant much?

And as far as the market goes, any news is likely to cause a kneejerk reaction and speculation. Nothing new there.

And as far as the path of least resistance, again, I’d love to know how you came to the conclusion that cash is the path of least resistance? Just head over to the dungeon forums, COF P1 much?

Selfish Fail

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Mourningcry.9428

Whoa…

Cut the OP a little slack. Not sure how many hours they may have logged, but any vet would have to agree that they haven’t had a chance to really experience the game.

Give em a chance. No need to bash ’em and scare ’em away. Initial impression can be misleading for some.

I encourage the OP to give it a little more chance, hook up with a solid guild/group to show em the ropes and maybe show why some of those assumptions may not hold.

I think the point was made that his initial impressions may be slightly biased.

Used to expect more from the GW community….

Infinite Gathering Tools Trickery

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Mourningcry.9428

Whatever dev happens across this, please take note. I spent money on both the [Molten Alliance Mining Pick] and the [Consortium Harvesting Sickle] because I was elated at the idea of gathering tools that don’t expire.

That being said, I know all the games. I know all the tricks. Do not in the future introduce some higher material for which these tools are useless and then sell essentially the same thing. It is at that point I would take my online business elsewhere.

I do not imply that you will, only that the temptation may exist. But it’s a dirty trick and I feel the need to make you aware of that—hopefully—before the idea pops into your heads.

I get this..

But even if they do introduce a new tier of mats, it doesn’t really affect the effectiveness of the two unlimited tools – they’re still good for all T1-T6. That’s still not too shabby.

Assuming T7+ nodes will be of limited availability, the two tools still cover a vast majority. Not all together that bad.

Changes to ecto salvage from rares

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Hey all, just wanted to let you know I’m still working and I’ll keep you updated as soon as I have something to post.

Much thanks, Mr. Smith. Your efforts are appreciated.

Superior Sigil of Fire not coming off CD

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Hello all. Posted in the Bug forum, but wanted to see if anyone else has experienced this, or can recreate/confirm this.

Thanks!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Sigil-of-Fire-not-coming-off-CD/2119331


Hello all.

Seems there’s an issue with Superior Sigil of Fire getting stuck in CD mode.

Here’s the set up

- One dagger with SSoF (main hand)
- One pistol with SSoF (main hand)

With theif-

- Attack with D/D until SSoF procs
- Swap to P/P (or S/P) until SSoF procs

Swap out to S/P if previous using P/P, or P/P if using S/P (keeping the pistol with SSoF, but transferring it to off hand)

Neither SSoF equipped weapon will proc again until log off/log on.

Extensively tested and was able to recreate.

Seems it may be an issue with SSoF as also seen similar in:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Sigil-of-Battle-Bug/first#post2082499

I did not encounter the issue until actually swapping out.

Can anyone else duplicate this issue?

Thanks

Sigil of Fire not coming off CD

in Bugs: Game, Forum, Website

Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Hello all.

Seems there’s an issue with Superior Sigil of Fire getting stuck in CD mode.

Here’s the set up

- One dagger with SSoF (main hand)
- One pistol with SSoF (main hand)

With theif-

- Attack with D/D until SSoF procs
- Swap to P/P (or S/P) until SSoF procs

Swap out to S/P if previous using P/P, or P/P if using S/P (keeping the pistol with SSoF, but transferring it to off hand)

Neither SSoF equipped weapon will proc again until log off/log on.

Extensively tested and was able to recreate.

Seems it may be an issue with SSoF as also seen similar in:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Sigil-of-Battle-Bug/first#post2082499

I did not encounter the issue until actually swapping out.

Can anyone else duplicate this issue?

Thanks

So 5 dollars for a kitten

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

It’s like your saying either we take rng or we take lazy/rushed items. lol? How about no rng and good items. What’s so hard to understand about that?

That’s not what I am saying, nor have said.

Obviously you don’t think this item is “good” or of “quality”. Fine, that’s your opinion. I’m sure there are more then a few happy customers who would have differing opinions. And the point being, I’m sure they’re happy the didn’t have to RNG for that satisfaction. Not sure how you’re missing that point.

Since you apparently know what good and items of quality are, perhaps you should let ANet know here :

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions

Giant Pig on a Greatsword - Want.

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

They’re available in game. However, it’s not a greatsword (I believe it was an edible).

Definitely available as part of the celebtration at the end of personal story. Have also seen them at various Charr campsites (sorry, don’t recall exact locations).

So 5 dollars for a kitten

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Mourningcry.9428

You’re really not making any sense.

They make quality items with rng = bad

They make lazy/rushed items with rng = bad

They make lazy/rushed items for set price = bad

They make quality items for set price = good

Really, they didn’t even bother to make a couple new animations for the kitten. It’s all animations from before the game even launched. That’s lazy.

“Quality” is a matter of opinion. Offering a direct sale vs a random chance isn’t.

I see this as a change in policy (although it appears RNG may be making a come back). It’s something. Maybe not to you, but to someone who can now happily buy the mini directly, instead of having to RNG for it, it’s probably a most welcomed change. But that doesn’t matter to you, eh?

Basically, until they offer exactly what you want directly for sale we can expect to keep seeing the same posts, no? That’s fine, keep at it. Keep up the tunnel vision.

So 5 dollars for a kitten

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Mourningcry.9428

If you think it’s too expensive, don’t buy it. Vote with your wallet.

If enough people buy it though, more power to Anet.

True that. Vote with your wallets. Let us not give anet any money.

That’s very cool, thanks for contributing nothing.

huh?

(edited by Mourningcry.9428)

So 5 dollars for a kitten

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Mourningcry.9428

Imagine what’d happen if they put a res-skinned greatsword, or other weapon up for direct sale instead of offering it up only via random chests. I bet the community would be all up in arms over just another “reskinned and resized” item they didn’t have to overcome RNG for!

Oh wait… isn’t that what so many wanted? Or did I just misinterpret stuff like

4 minipets were pure rng.

But you could buy 5 of the others, only getting 3 without buying them, and you could buy all the weapons and town cloths. I never said there was no RNG, but at least we had other things to spend our money on.

Oh and I did the Christmas chests and got the 3 mini pets, then turned them into a Quaggan. So the odds at Christmas were better then now.

Because you got the quaggan makes the chances better? Thats now how it works. I don’t know if you visited the forums at that time but the complaint threads were massive.

Yes, yes, before you all go there, I do get it… those mini-pets were different – unlike weapons that ARE just reskinned/resiszed. The point being they make it RNG people complain. They make them directly available, but not to people’s liking, they complain. So, what is it gonna take to make people happy?

(edited by Mourningcry.9428)

Gems to Gold

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Feel free to judge for yourself:

http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem

Gemprices are through the roof

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Because a truly player driven economy would be counterproductive to the company’s monetary goals. And the economy guy gets paid way too much to let anything in this arena be out of his control.

Why do you believe it is?

From this thread, and the numerous other ones like it… I’d actually argue that some players are generally counterproductive to a player driven economy.

(edited by Mourningcry.9428)

Fix AC again or just bring old AC back

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Not even gonna write about what you need to fix. As a dev team u guys should just go play it as a full group of lvl 35s and give urselves whatever best gear and buffs u can at that lvl oh and since there is no trinity don’t even try to cheat by using a balanced party go with whatever the team wants to play as. then go remake it. thnx bye.

Save yourself the trouble

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

You rob yourself of learning what works for you with that profession. Without the experimentation and trial and error on the way to 80, you’re going to be a level 80 noob. Like a Pokemon raised to 100 with rare candy lol

What you say can be more or less true depending on the class and overall gw2 experience…

Wouldn’t reccommend doing the crafting to 80 for a brand new player, but for a vet, it’s a viable alternative to get alts maxed quickly.

But what worked for me was do level 1-11 normally, craft to ~75ish, and finish off the last few levels learning various builds while opening up the world. If you plan your crafting, you can usually have a fully geared 80 when you’re done crafting (at least with rares, exotics if you really know what you want).

But as to the OP, you may want to rethink how you’re crafting, you’re not doing it right. Ask around for advice if you don’t believe so.

Lock box gambling is unethical

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Mourningcry.9428

I think you are being far too liberal in painting this as “gambling”. When you gamble for cash you are trying to turn money into more money, with the chance at losing you money with nothing in return.

Having items that are guaranteed to give you something for your money, even if your item is taken at random from the set group, is always giving you exactly what you paid for.

As others have stated its just like baseball cards, blind box collectables, and even those quarter vending machines where you get a little prize but everyone hopes for the really cool one they feature front and center. Heck, by your logic every enemy I kill could be considered a gamble with my time investment since drops are random.

This is much, much different than actually “gambling” as you are referencing.

Point taken. However I would say the use of the term “gambling” with respect to the BLTC has devloved, for a nnumber of reasons, into a very broad definition. There was a whole discussion a while back debating if it was gambling.

Seems that if the community is going to continue to refer to the current practices as a form of gambling, I’m not going to fight it, and just use it accordingly. The OP chose to use it, and because the intent of his post was clear, it’s just easier to accept the practice as a form of gambling for discussion purposes.

Lock box gambling is unethical

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Mourningcry.9428

It really irks me that people bring in an argument without realizing that there are huge discrepancies between things. A gambler isn’t going to take huge risks versus rewards, gamblers that play to win, do so at much smaller risks, it’s simply how the mentality works. Suckers play the big payouts at the higher risk games (this is why Vegas makes so much money) the massive influx of first time players will be attracted to playing the games that offer the highest rewards. It’s like a child on his first birthday wanting to grab that lit candle. This is a suckers game, we all know it, the odds are so stacked against you, you’d have to be a sucker to continue to play it. Sure the average person might give it a shot once, but once you know how bad it is you don’t continue doing it. So what I’m saying is we see a sucker born every minute and that’s whakitten feels like anet is catering to, just to make the quick extra cash. A gamble isn’t just a gamble. If the average person (some, most?) knew how crappy the odds were, i’m pretty sure they wouldn’t even bother, which is why they aren’t published. That’s how i see it, and typically how things are done across games of chance.

What really irks me is when people present the ideal as the norm. The type of gambler described above is the golden child of gamblers, hollywood’s depiction of the hero gambler. They always know the odds and they never play unless they have the edge. They’ve never had to get even, and their only losses are bad beats and they have the discipline and self control of a drill instructor to back it all up. Anyone else playing games of chance, or taking the long odds, has to be a sucker, or a naive innocent, a first timer, you’re average Joe just looking for a little fun and excitement, or is soon to be just another deadbeat sucker. I’ve personally seen a few “gamblers” go on tilt, and make plays even a “sucker” wouldn’t consider. The distinction, or discrepancy, between the two is often vague, circumstantial, and not as huge as it may seem.

This is a suckers game, we all know it, the odds are so stacked against you, you’d have to be a sucker to continue to play it.

I’d say you’d have to be a sucker to even play it once. And yes, that’d make me a sucker as well.

But forget about that, if you believe that we all know it’s a sucker’s game, then why the necessity to even bother disclosing the odds? Because, as you continue, the average joe doesn’t actually know. So which is it? Do they know or don’t they know.Or do they indeed know it’s a sucker’s game, but until someone lets them know exactly how big of a sucker they are, they’re cool with it?

You perhaps consider them "suckers’, or naive children who ANet is taking advantage of. But, perhaps I’m the optimist, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt that they aren’t suckers, and they aren’t guppies swimming with the sharks, rather, they are aware the odds are stacked against them (even if they don’t know how much), or that they don’t even care what the odds are, and that knowing this, they still, of their own free will, and own judgement, choose to partake. What I won’t do, is back them up and join in condemning ANet for providing them the opportunity to do so when they come here to complain about how unfair or unethical they now find the whole deal to be after not having things turn out as they thought it should.

Lock box gambling is unethical

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

My point was the odds being presented doesn’t stop a gamblers behavior, although it would prevent most people (at least the cash paying type) from bothering with it and definitely not be as shady as it is. The mentality of a gambler has to do more with risk versus reward, in most every case it’s money and the rush over a win at a nice payout. Once a gambler mentality wins (in this case) the game is up, there’s no reward to continue. So while it’s a gamble, it’s not a pay out over the long haul. Not to mention the extreme rarity the actual win is. If i go to a blackjack table, i have a far better chance at the rush of a win than opening these boxes. This isn’t a gamblers game, this is a suckers bet.

Sucker’s bet or not, it’s still a bet.. And if you’re going to classify it as such, then it’s a gamble, and those who partake in it are gamblers. That being the case, as you said, their behavior is unliekly to change regardless if odds are disclosed. No?

Further, if they’re not gamblers who are concerend with “risk versus reward”, then how would you define them? If these people have no concept of risk, or choose not to take it into consideration (therfore not gamblers) then what good is it to declare the odds? They’re not going to take them into account anyway.

I think you’re being highly optimistic in the sense that by just delcaring odds, suddenly the market is going to become so risk aware that they will no longer partake in the practice, or at least reduce the amount they partake. I think it’s fair to say that the people concerned with the odds are all very well that they’re not at all favorable. Yet, despite that, they still partake.

How do you conclude that actually pinning a number to them will actually dissuade them? I can tell you now, that I have such a low estimation of what the odds are, that if they actually published them it would likely look more favorable to me then it is now.

And to the second point fine, I’m reasonable, and can appreciate that this RNG should be considered separately because of the cash component.

The reason i keep rehashing this is because it feels like ANet is out to make a quick buck moreso than simply selling the items in question. Why they keep risking looking like this to their player base is beyond me.

How a person feels about these practices and how they perceive the practices themselves is really a matter of opinion. It simply may not make that much of impact to some (most?) of the player base. And let’s not rehash the selling items directly discussion in this thread.

On Lottery (RNG) Boxes

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

It won’t affect over all consumer behavior..but it might affect MY behavior. I’d be willing to pick up some of those boxes if I knew I had a 1 in 50 chance of getting something. Without knowing I’m not willing to play that game. I’ve chosen to not get the boxes, even though I like the new skins.

There are people who will buy because they like to gamble. I don’t like to gamble, but I will if I can judge the odds for myself.

That’s cool. I can appreciate, and do believe it would benefit a few players.

However, numbers can be deceiving to some. Take your 1:50 odds. Sounds pretty good. But why not try it. Grab a roll of pennies (or whatever you like) and uniquely mark one of em. Toss em all in a bag. Now put just a dollar into a pile for every time you draw out a coin. Whatever ends up in the pile, you donate to a charity.Try it a few times. See how it actually feels to play those odds.

It’s one thing to see the numbers, it’s another thing to actually experience them.

I get what you’re saying. I’m just trying to point out that there’s often a disconnect for most people between hearing the odds, and actually experiencing them.

As a follow up, take another roll of coins, and ask a friend to either add some or all of those coins into the bag, or take some out. Their choice, but they don’t tell you what they do.

Now how do feel about paying a dollar to try to pick the marked coin? Once burned twice shy? Or do you think your odds are better now? There’s no right answer, just a way to see how you react to it.

(edited by Mourningcry.9428)

On Lottery (RNG) Boxes

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

heres another experiment with lotery put side by side a 6 scratch square boxes s lotery ticket and a 18 box ticket

both working by the simple mechanic of align all of the same icon in a row to win (if row is interrupted by an icon rows after it dont count).

All=grandprize

Half= small prize

2=consolation prize 1$ or nothing 3 in the case of 18 slot

and see wich ticket people will go for

people will avoid the bigger ticket as it has same reward but bigger risk

and thats how odds would affect the market.

Not quite the same concept…

Modify it this way – now get rid of the 18 slot ticket, and replace it with a ticket of unknown number of slots face down and tell them that one of the tickets has better odds than the other.

Now ask them to pick one.

Edit: The concept being the nature of a person to choose between known bad odds and unknown odds. The original experiment you pose is simply a test to see if the person can differentiate between two known sets of odds.

What is more interesting is it more natural for a person to assume that unknown odds are more favorable for them than odds they do know? Given that not knowing the odds, and choosing not to know the odds are the equivalent for these purposes.

Also, the example really isn’t quite representative because the odds of being interrupted aren’t stated. Given those, it would affect just how unfavorable the 6 slot ticket looks to the player (you’re hiding the real odds) and just how much more favorable the unknown might be. There’s a perceptible difference between a 99.99% chance of interruption and say a 50% chance.

(edited by Mourningcry.9428)

On Lottery (RNG) Boxes

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

It’s not about making the correct play, it’s about being informed. That is the whole point.

I get that, and have no issues with that. My point (made a few times across numerous threads) is that even given thakitten ’s the right thing to do, and even if it’s done, it’s not going to significantly change things.

Those that really care about the odds already have a good idea of how badly it’s stacked against them. Knowing exactly how bad isn’t going to really change anything for them.

And for those who are unaware of them, to what extent is it really going to change their behavior given their predisposition to being ambivalent towards their perceived odds? Sure a few may change, but a significant number? Perhaps you’re more optimistic then I.

On Lottery (RNG) Boxes

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Knowing the odds does matter and is the whole issue, that is the only way you can make an informed decision.

/snip
In addition, I used to work at an international casino and I regularly saw people bet or red/black on roulette continuously (49% chance on each spin to win). But casinos have a limit on how much you can bet, so if someone keeps doubling their bet they’ll regularly hit the limit before they can get their money back, therefore they lose (worked out to be 7 times before you hit the limit at my casino).

Then you should know better then most that even having the odds readily available, the vast majority of players are either unaware of them, don’t know how to interpret them, or simply don’t care. Just walk over to the craps table. I have rarely see anyone making bets to take the house edge down to less then 3%. Or just look at the example you gave.

It’s highly optimistic to assume that given the odds, players will make the correct play instead of the one they want to.

Lock box gambling is unethical

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

I’m not interested in the behavior of the gambler, this isn’t about that at all, this is about getting duped. It started way back on Halloween (i think) and people put up a huge stink then which actually anet tried to rectify using the forge. The fact is it kitten es people off, a lot of people, but they keep doing it. It really smells rotten at this point.

I think you either missed the point of my analogy, or are simply choosing to ignore it.

But seriously, if buying these items is, or at the very least perceived as, a gamble, then what are the people who buy them if not gamblers? Are they not in, in the words of the OP, and numerous others, gambling?

Forget that for a minute. Lets assume it is as you put it a straight up dupe. My point still stands that disclosing the odds isn’t going to dissuade someone intent on trying to get a new shiney. They either won’t care, can’t comprehend the odds, or otherwise won’t even bother to view them.

You make the point yourself. If people have come to realize how incredibly “unfair” and “unethical” the practice is, then why do they persist and keep at it? Because, as the OP pointed out, it’s part of human behavior that is just too powerful for some to resist. Will providing statisitcs really going to be a deterent to their behavior?

Edit: For clarification, I think your “they” refers to ANet, and my “they” refers to the players who continually engage in the purchasing of these contentious items.

It’s really one in the same, they complain about the nearly impossible to guess chance at getting the “rare” or “very rare” items, if you know those odds, you know the odds for the rest. Apparently the quoting system is broken now

Again, my point is either being ignored, or misunderstood. Why is RNG perceived ok in some instances and not in others? As another pointed out, the same crowd should be up in arms about mob drops. And not to the extent that drop rates have been nerfed, but rather that the RNG for a precursor, or like items, is not disclosed. It’s all the same, or it isn’t; not in some cases the same, and some cases not.

You last point is your opinion, as was mine. So, respectfully, to each their own.

(edited by Mourningcry.9428)

On Lottery (RNG) Boxes

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Said it before elsewhere, so, not going to rehash the whole thing – but simply put

What makes you think posting the odds will significantly affect GW2 consumer behavior? Do you think the typical GW2 consumer will even bother to lookup the posted odds before a purchase? How about after?

I would contend any consumer that has an understanding of the way things currently work isn’t going to be swayed differently upon seeing the actual odds. Likewise, I’d bet it’s a scant few that don’t understand the mechanic would bother to either bother to lookup the odds, or care.

Here’s a little experiment in human behavior, next time you’re at your locale convenience store, watch to see how people buy lottery tickets. How many, if any of them ever ask to see the ticket before purchasing to check the stated odds? How about after they’ve scratched it off?

Lock box gambling is unethical

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Everything you just said is borderline accurate.

/snip

Gambling throughout all games of chance have calculated odds and in many cases even state them directly on the game itself, so yes, it for sure feels unethical to have this sort of practice of undisclosed odds, if not unethical, at least slimy. I really just don’t see how anyone can state otherwise, especially based on real life examples versus virtual ones.

We can do this dance again if you really like.

As Buttercup said, many are just rehashing the same positions posed elsewhere. The question of ethics has been raised, and discussed before. So, I’ll also pass on rehashing much of what I’ve said before.

No one complains that they don’t state the odds for the types of boosters, mats or tonics that they’ll receive. Why not? Because their thinking is inherently biased exclusively towards the “shiny”. Where, if not from their own expectations does this bias stem?

Do you really think that stating the odds will result in a significant change in behavior? Here’s a little experiment in human behavior, next time you’re at your locale convenience store, watch to see how people buy lottery tickets. How many, if any of them ever ask to see the ticket before purchasing to check the stated odds? How about after they’ve scratched it off?

How many players do you think would bother to check odds provided from Anet before making a purchase? Would the availability affect their bias to take a chance for a new shiny?

Even with fully disclosed odds, I would take a bet (without even wanting to know the odds) that we’d see the same kind of disgruntled posts.

And for the record, and as stated before, I don’t find the practice unethical. That being said, I’ve never even hinted that it was at all favorable in the least for the consumer. Would I rather it otherwise? Perhaps. But does lack of understanding, when there is sufficient information available to make a personal judgement call, from the participants inherently make it an unethical practice?

Lock box gambling is unethical

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Selling lock boxes without telling the purchasers the odds of “winning” is unethical.
Buying lock boxes without knowing the odds of “winning” is stupidity in action.

One statement does not negate the other.

This is very well stated, and may get the point across in a way that I was unable.

Maybe this discussion breaks down into those who think fair trade should be regulated by people not being stupid and those who think it should be regulated by sellers not being unethical.

If I could turn this into a poll, I would.

So, just to whittle out some ambiguity – If ANet were to disclose the odds for each item, this would then make the practice ethical? Even if the odds were 1 in a billion? No?

Oh, so, then it’s not just a matter of disclosure, but rather of disclosure plus offering “fair” odds. Ok. So, what’s fair?

Regardless, just go ahead and offer both full disclosure, and “fair” odds. Now, you presume that every consumer can make an educated, and rational decision? How optimistic.

So, that one poor soul who dumps what amounts to a very significant sum of money for them, and despite the “fair odds” and full disclosure, comes up short, and comes here to complain. Do you blame him? Or is it still unethical because this poor soul simply is incapable of understanding what the situation is?

It can be easily be argued that there are consumers that will act, rationally or not, regardless of any disclosures provided to them. The corporation cannot be held responsible for the consequences resulting from poor judgment of irrational consumers.

Where is the line drawn? At what point is it no longer the seller’s responsibility, and shifts to the buyer’s? Where does corporate responsibility end and consumer responsibility begin?

As an alternative to trying to change what the OP and others may deem as “unethical” practices, why not spend the energy trying to instruct your fellow consumers on how to make rational purchases? Arguably, if they then stop making purchases, the corporation would have to change their practices to satisfy the educated consumer, no?

Sudden Dramatic Price Drop

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Didn’t Molten Facility drop V PT (Sentinel’s) inscriptions? Bloodstone is P VT (Soldier’s)…. ?

(edited by Mourningcry.9428)

Sudden Dramatic Price Drop

in Black Lion Trading Co

Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Hum. Two logical explanations come to my mind in few seconds..

1. It’s PVT. Molten Facility offered similar exotic stat combination for cheaper price, thus reducing demand which should lead to drop in price.
2. Someone found recipe and started offensive in pricewar.

Given the increase in sell listings, #2 could be viable. Or just someone who had been stocking up, and is now trying to cash out on whatever spread they can get.

IMO, Gem Prices need to be regulated

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

I would be up for a fixed price, at least that way you’d know what’s up.

Earlier in the thread I theorized that the initial rate that ANet would have to set would be highly unattractive to most players for various reasons. Just think about what the rate would have to be in order to prevent players from purchasing gem store items that can be sold on the TP for more gold then the gems it took to acquire the item. Aslo, as disccussed else where, setting too favorable a rate would cut into cash sales.

That way discounts on certain items would actually mean something, I mean 25% discount on something, and the price going up by 25% because of the increased sales isn’t really worth it.

This was also discussed in another thread. A 25% discount on price does not equate, nor is intended to be, a 25% haricut in the exchage rate. John Smith even proposed a discussion on how a haricut can actually be offered on the floating exchange rate. I think thre were two, maybe three posts in that thread. Regardless, from a cash perspective, which is the intended market, the sale discount is fully realized.

(edited by Mourningcry.9428)

On Lottery (RNG) Boxes

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Your “useful, rational example” is just as much “random garbage” as what anyone else has said. Making numbers up, even if you’re attempting to do so logically, to prove a point or support an argument is a wasteful endeavor because it proves nothing. It’s baseless speculation.

What my “garbage” was intended to show, was a thought process, based on reasonable assumptions, of how I came to my opinion. Of course, it can offer no proof. Nor was it ever intended to.

The point it made was to offer up some rational behind the value of what one of those random items may be. Do you know what they’re worth? Me neither. But at least now I kind of have a pretty good idea that they’re probably worth a lot more then 800 gems.

If you can’t appreciate the difference between theoretical analysis and a “gut feeling” in the abscence of hard data, well, then there really isn’t much to discuss.

On Lottery (RNG) Boxes

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Something you don’t appear to be accounting for is inflation.

Don’t let John Smith hear you call it inflation

Yes, the price of gems is increasing; but so is the price of everything else.

Next, the price of items in the gem store has remained constanst since the start of the game. And there is no greater reason to exchange gold for gems, then to make gem store purchases. All other “prices” are irrelevant to this point.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Store

There’s more gold in the economy than there used to be. Accordingly, gold is worth less now than it used to be. It’s simple economics.

Finally, the exchange rate of gems to gold is dictated entirely by player actions. The more people exchanging gold for gems, causes an appreciation the that rate. Likewise, if more players have been purchasing gems for cash and exchanging those gems for case, it would have depreciated. Those are the main factors that affect rate. Look it up if you don’t believe me.

Simply, and in direct answer to the other poster’s claims, players do have the excecss gold to exchange for gems, for gem store items (which haven’t increased in price).

I’d say more, but I’d probably just get another infraction.

On Lottery (RNG) Boxes

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

First i was using 10 gems as an example, nothing in the store comes at that price. Second, the system is already heavily weighted in favor of paying cash for gems, so much so in fact that converting the excess gems to gold even makes sense. If players have that kind of time to spend on playing and earning enough gold (mostly the unemployed or people in school) you won’t be getting their money anyway, since they don’t have any to spend.

First, it’s exactly what I called it as. Instead of offering a useful, rational example, some posters would rather just throw out random garbage, rathen then put in the least amount of effort to offer up something meaningful.

Second, the steadily rising gem → gold exchange would lead one to belive there are plenty of players out there with more then enough gold to convert to gems to make gemstore purchases (perhaps as an investment tool as a secondary reason). And it rises like clockwork each time new store items are made available. And further, you can’t just dismiss that they won’t without mentioning price. After all, price is going to be a major factor in how players pay for those gems items.

You’re also quoting a call that said an expansion to be released sometime this year, when anet recently said there wasn’t one in the works. I take what those investment calls say with a grain of salt.

As well you should. But then who’s answer to your questions would you not dismiss?

On Lottery (RNG) Boxes

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

I think those are far more important points than what a fair price is, obviously selling a skin for 10000 gems isn’t going to sell well, but how about selling 1000 @ 10 gems? It certain doesn’t cost the company anymore money to manufacture more of the same item.

This is representative of the “off the cuff”, thinking I’m talking about. Why would anyone pay cash for 10gems (or any small value) instead of exchanging gold for gems, resulting in zero revenue. It doesn’t have a cost associated with it, but it certainly has revenue implications. How is price not a consideration?

But the bigger questions to this point to me is for how long? How long can you “take advantage” of tremendous sales and not look like your just being greedy? How long before the majority of your player base refuses to spend once cent on your store items or up and quits altogether because you continue to do these things? Further more, how many more threads speaking out about this practice is it going to take?

You want the official answer? Looks like strong and consistent going forward (my formating)


Taken from the NCsoft Q1 2013 Earnings Call
Represting NCsoft were:
Jae-Sung Lee, the Head of IR
Hong Cha Na, the Head of Finance and Accounting Group

<Q – Seok-Min Kim>: [Foreign Language] (00:25:08 – 00:26:08) So I would like to ask a couple of questions. First, if
you look at your first quarter operating profit it seems that it is at a significant level. In only a quarter you have gone
from an operating profit that was in the late KRW30 billion range or so, to a range that is now KRW50 billion. So for
the reasons behind this, in addition to the very strong performance by Lineage 1, is there any other factors that have
been driving this operating profit in general? That’s the first question I would like to ask. And added to that, in terms of
your second quarter, in terms of the fee structure that you have or the cost structure, do you think that the structure that
you have had in the first quarter will be something that will consistent in the second quarter?
And the second question I would like to ask is with relation to your China Blade & Soul and also Guild Wars 2 tests
and the reaction from that. Right now, would you be able to share how many participants you have in the test that you
are currently conducting? And what the number of participants will be in future tests going forward? In addition to that,
if you – lastly, if I could also ask about the Guild Wars 2 revenue. In terms of that revenue, what is the percentage of
the item sales revenue?

/snip

<A>: [Foreign Language] (00:29:49 – 00:30:13)
And in terms of your last question, which was the percentage of item sales within the Guild Wars 2 sales, it is difficult
for us to talk about the specifics in this area because it is a business issue. I do believe that in the previous quarter I did
mention some numbers. But when compared to our initial expectations in terms of the box sales and the item sales, we
have seen a very consistent and very strong performance in this area, and we do believe it will be consistent going
forward.

/snip

<Q – Sean Oh>: [Foreign Language] (01:22:31 – 01:23:09) This is about your Guild Wars 2 sales. If you look at the
revenue, of course, it can be broken down into your box sales and your in-game item sales. If you were to break that
down and maybe give a view about your in-game item sales going forward, that would be something that we would
appreciate.

And secondly, with regards to Blade and Soul, you do have an update that you are planning right now, in terms of the
monthly subscription fees. Currently, it’s priced at a slightly higher level than AION. However, if you take into
consideration where League of Legends is pricing right now, do you believe that you need to change where your
pricing point is? And if so, what is your view about that situation?

<A>: [Foreign Language] (01:23:50 – 01:24:14) To address your question for the outlook going forward in terms of
our box sales and our micro payment from Guild Wars 2. We believe that both will remain strong going forward.

However, in terms of the break down, because this is a business issue, we don’t believe that that is information that we
can provide and we do hope that you understand this point.

Edit: edited for formatting.

(edited by Mourningcry.9428)

On Lottery (RNG) Boxes

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Posted by: Mourningcry.9428

Mourningcry.9428

Please see my post above. I’m not asking for sales, revenue or growth projections. All I’m asking for is some analysis that at least shows some thought about the possible financial implications of some of these alternatives being suggested.

I was called out on this earlier, and replied.

Maybe reading previous posts, in the same thread, might be a good idea? But pretty much like those alternative posts, you’re too lazy, and just post away with out even thinking. No worries, I’m used to it.

I’m still wondering how a speculative analysis would be worth much. We could speculate many options and be so far off on the numbers that it wouldn’t even mean anything. It doesn’t seem lazy to not do it, it just seems like a waste of time.

Fine. How’s this? A lot of alternatives center around the idea of outright, fixed price sales of items. And some even want to increase the number of these items. Great.

Question. What’s the price and why?

Ya, seems like a great idea until you start getting into the details. Pricing methodology is not trival. Do you think it’s arbitrary that the new loot boxes are priced @ 150 gems, and that a bundle of them is also avaialble for 1200gems?

Do any of these kind of alternatives people list even bother to offer an explanation of how they’d go about pricing the items? Nope.

Quite frankly, one might argue that that may be a “waste of time”.