Guild Wars 2

Their leash is their f1 virtue active ability.

Glaphen just stop. Chaith is right lol. Just stop for a moment and check your bias. Then try and digest what he just said. He’s a top tier competitive player that probably knows more about the scene than you do.

Yet some guy was telling me clerics is better than minstrel.. LOL

nearlight.3064:

Fire D/D ele is still strong in 1v1s, but doesn’t bring the damage or utility to teamfights as well post-HoT, since its still limited by the longish ramp up time for might stacking, and things like dragonhunter trap bombs can burst it kind of easily. Stone heart ele works a lot better since it can whether the burst, but the damage isn’t there at all. Fresh Air Cele tempest with D/F is a bit odd, but I feel as though it fits the current meta better since it doesn’t need mightstacking to put strong AoE on a point, and the auraheal support is a lot stronger than most people expect, while earth focus 5 helps it whether bursts.

Basically. And even then if you are running shouts, you are very vulnerable to cc and focus fire. No mobility at all too.

Look at the sorry state of ele atm lol. We are outclassed by other elite specs. We have once been top represented class in pvp yet look at us now.

Elementalists atm have no damage if we spec into sustain, and no sustain if we spec into damage. I think its highly irrelevant to talk about eles now as they have been phased out.

Oxygen.5918:

ReaperJr.5967:

Easily reproduced yet you dont post a video showing the rotation and the actual numbers crunched by the build.

Data is so cherry picked you chose numbers from a specific boss with a specifically large hitbox and a specific motion (almost none). For all we know it only works in this encounter.

Oh, man, if only I’d linked the video of the rotation…

Oh wait:

Oxygen.5918:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/PvE-Ridic-DPS-Longbow-condi-video-guide/

Literally in the first post. Your ineptitude is palpable. Try reading troll. Most relevant boss encounters have very little movement. Hell, isn’t Bloomhunger, a LARGE STATIONARY boss used for dps races? Just leave.

My apologies. Was too caught up in my emotions regarding berserker. Nonetheless, majority of complaints were towards its viability in pvp, not pve. But kudos to you if you have managed a viable build in pve anyway.

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

Because this doesnt allow players to hold infinitely against multiple players.

Neither does Minstrel’s It’s actually worse than Cleric’s for that.

It isnt because clerics doesnt give purely defensive stats.

Whoa but vitality is the most useless of them, it gives no sustain only slight burst protection.

More vit=more hp=more damage soaking=more bunkering.

What does power do for bunkering?

Make it so they are actually helping kill the enemy. So what happens after that initial 5.5k HP disappears, nothing it’s gone forever yet your problem with it is the 1 vs 2-4s. Which is why the health was nearly useless at its only purpose of burst protection because if you are focused by multiple people you should be dead before the CC is over if they aren’t kitten. Vitality is only good for damage builds and Necromancers.

Healing power supplements vit lol. You cant just isolate vit and disregard the healing power the smulet gives. With or without the 900 power you will be doing no damage if youre specced to be a bunker.

You mean the healing power that Cleric’s gives more of. It does not compliment healing power at all, toughness does, vitality does not help you sustain at all. Well my shortbow basic on Thief does 175×3 around with Minstrel’s does 400×3 with Cleric’s and most builds only have around 400 HPS. You are easily out damaging their healing with shortbow with just one target, with Minstrel’s you could never out damage someones healing.

Ok lets just stop with the scenerios for a moment, i just noticed a glaring flaw in your argument: if clerics was so much better than minstrel, why was everyone using minstrel?

Many people did not know the boon duration didn’t work which would make it better. It was really only good on Guardian, bunker Necromancers, Tempest but Celestial was better and my bunker Thief so I could stand a chance against the DH spam. Also Druids with boon duration would also be an upgrade since pets hit hard enough.

Okay lets assume you are right for a moment, where does celestial come into the equation?

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

Because this doesnt allow players to hold infinitely against multiple players.

Neither does Minstrel’s It’s actually worse than Cleric’s for that.

It isnt because clerics doesnt give purely defensive stats.

Whoa but vitality is the most useless of them, it gives no sustain only slight burst protection.

More vit=more hp=more damage soaking=more bunkering.

What does power do for bunkering?

Make it so they are actually helping kill the enemy. So what happens after that initial 5.5k HP disappears, nothing it’s gone forever yet your problem with it is the 1 vs 2-4s. Which is why the health was nearly useless at its only purpose of burst protection because if you are focused by multiple people you should be dead before the CC is over if they aren’t kitten. Vitality is only good for damage builds and Necromancers.

Healing power supplements vit lol. You cant just isolate vit and disregard the healing power the smulet gives. With or without the 900 power you will be doing no damage if youre specced to be a bunker.

You mean the healing power that Cleric’s gives more of. It does not compliment healing power at all, toughness does, vitality does not help you sustain at all. Well my shortbow basic on Thief does 175×3 around with Minstrel’s does 400×3 with Cleric’s and most builds only have around 400 HPS. You are easily out damaging their healing with shortbow with just one target, with Minstrel’s you could never out damage someones healing.

Ok lets just stop with the scenerios for a moment, i just noticed a glaring flaw in your argument: if clerics was so much better than minstrel, why was everyone using minstrel?

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

Because this doesnt allow players to hold infinitely against multiple players.

Neither does Minstrel’s It’s actually worse than Cleric’s for that.

It isnt because clerics doesnt give purely defensive stats.

Whoa but vitality is the most useless of them, it gives no sustain only slight burst protection.

More vit=more hp=more damage soaking=more bunkering.

What does power do for bunkering?

Make it so they are actually helping kill the enemy. So what happens after that initial 5.5k HP disappears, nothing it’s gone forever yet your problem with it is the 1 vs 2-4s. Which is why the health was nearly useless at its only purpose of burst protection because if you are focused by multiple people you should be dead before the CC is over if they aren’t kitten. Vitality is only good for damage builds and Necromancers.

Healing power supplements vit lol. You cant just isolate vit and disregard the healing power the smulet gives. With or without the 900 power you will be doing no damage if youre specced to be a bunker.

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

Because this doesnt allow players to hold infinitely against multiple players.

Neither does Minstrel’s It’s actually worse than Cleric’s for that.

It isnt because clerics doesnt give purely defensive stats.

Whoa but vitality is the most useless of them, it gives no sustain only slight burst protection.

More vit=more hp=more damage soaking=more bunkering.

What does power do for bunkering?

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

Because this doesnt allow players to hold infinitely against multiple players.

Neither does Minstrel’s It’s actually worse than Cleric’s for that.

It isnt because clerics doesnt give purely defensive stats.

Because this doesnt allow players to hold infinitely against multiple players.

Gj on those fast and well implemented balance changes. Kudos to balance team. Now all we have to do is fix berserker and tempest and we’re good to go.

Great changes, yet why are there no mentions of berserker T_T

1v1 wise play a condition class and rev gets kitten on. Dont hit them in glint heal and you stand a chance. Youll need to burst them fast though. They have too many active defenses against power builds so you probably wont win if youre power. Unless youre a chronomancer.

StickerHappy.8052:

ReaperJr.5967:

StickerHappy.8052:

glaphen.5230:

StickerHappy.8052:

Quadox.7834:

Yes, the blind HAS to go, it is one of the most stupid traits in the game.

It’s funny a mesmer like you complaining about blinds which mesmer has a ton.

Blinding Dissipation, Ineptitude, chaos armor, prestige..

LOL

Whoa that is a lot of different sources.

But wait they still don’t even when combined add up to 3 per ally per second. Probably also triggers on ally pets too so I wonder if this trait isn’t nerfed will we have MM NecromancerxDruid teams being immortal from the perma blind while still doing good damage.

Blinding Dissipation is INSTANT. AoE, Works with all 5 shatters.

Your point?

Scroll up, I was addressing the mesmer, I hate it when people see other classes and not the profession they play

Then you of all people (having a champion illusionist title) should know that mesmers’ supposed ‘blind spam’ isnt as mindless, passive and ridiculous as lingering light.

StickerHappy.8052:

glaphen.5230:

StickerHappy.8052:

Quadox.7834:

Yes, the blind HAS to go, it is one of the most stupid traits in the game.

It’s funny a mesmer like you complaining about blinds which mesmer has a ton.

Blinding Dissipation, Ineptitude, chaos armor, prestige..

LOL

Whoa that is a lot of different sources.

But wait they still don’t even when combined add up to 3 per ally per second. Probably also triggers on ally pets too so I wonder if this trait isn’t nerfed will we have MM NecromancerxDruid teams being immortal from the perma blind while still doing good damage.

Blinding Dissipation is INSTANT. AoE, Works with all 5 shatters.

Your point?

Easily reproduced yet you dont post a video showing the rotation and the actual numbers crunched by the build.

Data is so cherry picked you chose numbers from a specific boss with a specifically large hitbox and a specific motion (almost none). For all we know it only works in this encounter.

nearlight.3064:

ReaperJr.5967:

nearlight.3064:

For cleanses on air/earth tempest cele builds I generally run diamond skin and soldier runes with all shouts to help with the cleanse. Earth focus 4 has a 16 second cooldown with geomancers freedom (which reduces chill duration go figure) and that clears 3 condis in addition to being a reflect and blast finisher.

With this setup I’m able to manage conditions well enough to sustain myself, and diamond skin lets me handle 1v1s against condi duelist builds to the point of it being unfair for them.

The main issue with condis is when you’re fighting things like power reapers that apply a lot of chill but deal physical damage so they can break your diamond skin, but in general I’m not as afraid of the damaging conditions themselves as much as I am for power builds with high debuff pressure.

You can run water instead of air for powerful auras, which is strong for healing and sharing shocking aura, but as a tempest you don’t benefit as much from the water swap since you don’t have arcane, and this build will actually want to use water overload at rare times.

Thanks. I’ve tried the build you mentioned, and 1v1 on side node wise, it’s really good. Problem comes when the teamfight happens. Idk if it’s because of my mmr or what not but people adapt real quick lol. I’m always the first to get focused down. And I can’t really escape since I don’t have LF/FGS/RTL anymore. Especially if I get cc-ed.

Reapers are especially hard to deal with. It was really fun but I compared it to a traditional might stacking d/f earth/water/Arcana ele and.. it’s still no good.

I guess it depends. Yeah its not very intuitive to play and you have to watch your positioning carefully. You can’t overload if you’re focused, and dragonhunters/chronomancers will shut you down so you have to kite around their AoEs.

I run it in a somewhat organized 2-point comp and we do great with it, I can hold a node for a surprisingly long amount of time as long as I’m not being focused by those with tons of chill..

I’m switching off and on between it and cele druid to be the point-holder semi-healer for my team that also does decent damage. I do way more damage with tempest though, but generally more healing with druid, as you can imagine.

Thanks for the tips but i think i do know how to play ele considering its my main. Been playing it for 2 years. I guess the difference lies between our teams? I was testing it in solo queue while you had an organised team. Easier to coordinate them supporting you and vice versa.

Fundementally the build itself is weak to cc and focus fire though. Ill test it out more and see how it goes.

Thief bashing us about complaining about berserker while displaying some cherry picked data here. Am i the only one that sees the problem?

alain.1659:

A bowl of curry chicken might taste good, smell good, even prepared “perfectly”. But if what you want is a glass of water, it won’t do a kitten .

Apply warhorn in this sentence with a desired system/weapon. You shall not try to sell shirts “only”, when customer desires shoes.

I get what you mean. However, nobody was talking about warhorn here. Also, what I want is a balance between offense and defense, to fulfil the bruiser role as a tempest. Which tempest doesn’t offer. Hence the question, why not? We are supposed to be a jack of all trades.

If a clothing shop advertises it’s shoes, yet doesn’t sell shoes, does it make sense?

Celestial is fine. Its scrapper that’s not.

nearlight.3064:

For cleanses on air/earth tempest cele builds I generally run diamond skin and soldier runes with all shouts to help with the cleanse. Earth focus 4 has a 16 second cooldown with geomancers freedom (which reduces chill duration go figure) and that clears 3 condis in addition to being a reflect and blast finisher.

With this setup I’m able to manage conditions well enough to sustain myself, and diamond skin lets me handle 1v1s against condi duelist builds to the point of it being unfair for them.

The main issue with condis is when you’re fighting things like power reapers that apply a lot of chill but deal physical damage so they can break your diamond skin, but in general I’m not as afraid of the damaging conditions themselves as much as I am for power builds with high debuff pressure.

You can run water instead of air for powerful auras, which is strong for healing and sharing shocking aura, but as a tempest you don’t benefit as much from the water swap since you don’t have arcane, and this build will actually want to use water overload at rare times.

Thanks. I’ve tried the build you mentioned, and 1v1 on side node wise, it’s really good. Problem comes when the teamfight happens. Idk if it’s because of my mmr or what not but people adapt real quick lol. I’m always the first to get focused down. And I can’t really escape since I don’t have LF/FGS/RTL anymore. Especially if I get cc-ed.

Reapers are especially hard to deal with. It was really fun but I compared it to a traditional might stacking d/f earth/water/Arcana ele and.. it’s still no good.

Jasher.6580:

Druids don’t have blocks, evades, reflects or invulnerabilities. They need the blinds to be a bunker.

It’s called Balance.

Wait so you’re justifying unrelentless blind spam by saying ‘oh I want to play druid this way but I can’t do it without the blind spam’ and you’re calling that balance? LMAO.

Guess who else used to be able to bunker without all those? That’s right, ShoutBow warrior.

Sandzibar.5134:

ReaperJr.5967:

Look at these druids trying to defend it. -cue laughter-

Looks at all these people losing their minds because Ranger became overpowered. -cue pity-

FTFY. Blinding dissipations and blinding ashes both warranted a nerf but lingering light doesn’t right? #logic

Defending your spec mindlessly, now that’s what I call pitiful.

Look at these druids trying to defend it. -cue laughter-

Iohanna.4863:

grahf.7540:

Thanks for sharing the build. I did try it for 5 games last night…

Definitely it is extremely hard to die with this build. In teamfights if you concentrate on only using earth overload, you generally won’t be interrupted. The problem is this locks you out of earth for 20sec… So in general overloading still might not be worth it. I feel like the build might be most effective if you do not ever overload unless in a favorable situation (2v1, 3v1 in your favor). In that sense it’s a ‘win-more’ skill.

In terms of damage output it is quite low, as expected. It is hard to kill someone unless you can off an Overload Air without being interrupted (very rare).

I will reiterate what I said earlier in the thread: support Tempest can be fairly powerful and useful. But it requires good team coordination. I feel like this build could succeed in ESL where a pro team coordinates to benefit most from auras, shouts etc.

In solo queue I found it a very helpless situation where I felt like I had little effect on the outcome of the match. It’s like the opposite of being a carry. You can win with this build if the rest of your team is solid, but if they are somewhat weak, you are pretty much screwed. Personally I enjoy having a more active role in fights that can turn entire matches around.

Thanks for trying it out! I had the opportunity to get a few hours of PVP with this build last night, and I found that practice has allowed me to carry the team – regardless of their skill level. I had 11 games, won 9, lost 2. One was because I volunteered to get auto balanced (wanted to see how long I could last against 4 player focus fire – 15 seconds, surprisingly long), another was because the difference in performance between the teams was simply too great for my presence to compensate for. I have some tips that may help:

- I’ve been quite loud about Earth attunement, but you absolutely must learn to use the other attunements to get the most out of this build.

- Earth is best used to tank your opponent’s more damaging abilities so that you are safer when using your other attunements. You can camp Earth to let your Shouts recharge in a safe place.

- A good time to switch out of Earth is after you’ve gained a ton of protection from aura spam.. Don’t underestimate the protection boon, and don’t underestimate auras.

- Earth 2 blasts Water 4 to give area Frost Aura; this is my favorite way to switch. Frost Aura grants you an additional 10% damage reduction – you already have 40% from protection and may have 10% from Earth minor trait, so against opponents in close range you have a whopping 60% damage reduction after the switch.

- You have reduced Water cool downs, don’t be afraid to pop everything. In particular I like to use Overload Water even if I’m at full health – it extends my regeneration + protection boons, tanks conditions, and gives Frost Aura if I manage to finish it.

- Fire is excellent, you should do your best to drop a few Fire skills when Earth is on vacation. Fire 2 and 3 have extremely short cast times, and Fire 4 is a very nice evade. Don’t be afraid to cast Fire 5, you should still have protection and if you get CCed, Overload Fire should be available by then to break stun.

- I typically start/enter fights with Air 5 plus Overload Air. Air 3 is nice for interrupting stomps. But Air does not usually see much fighting for me. I mostly use Air whenever I need swiftness.

- You have perma vigor! Don’t forget to dodge!

Wait.. you tested this in hot join? No offense but that is no way in hell a reliable indication of a builds ability.

When you’ve reached r80, it doesnt necessary correlate to a high skill level. However, it does mean that you have more playing experience than someone who isn’t, hence more likely to know pvp better and therefore perform better.

Queue times (from what I’ve gathered) between 5-7 minutes are supposedly a good indication. Your games are also usually very polarised. There might be no actual mmr but these are the signs that have been recurrent among most skilled players so it’s safe to say that it’s accurate to a fairly high degree.

Anyway, I know about illusionary superiority. Its the same across every genre of video games. Low mmr people claiming ‘mmr doesn’t matter’ and that high mmr players are playing incorrectly. Also known as the dunning kruger effect.

Anyway, the meta can change as much as it likes but as long as the game mode remains as conquest, the performing roles will not change fundementally. Burst classes may be much better than bruiser in stronghold, for example.

Rangers defending druids are like ele defending fire ele pre-nerf. Ridiculous.

Anet has already dropped a massive hint as for what you should do. Look at rytlock.

Jokes aside, that has been the general consensus since bwe 2 but does it look like anet cares? No.

nearlight.3064:

ReaperJr.5967:

Supreme.3164:

ReaperJr.5967:

Supreme.3164:

Some people like to play the doom and gloom hero no matter what, they just need gw2 meta build to show them the meta tempest build and you’ll see them glorify tempest with open threads..just wait 2-3 weeks and you’ll see…I mean just watch dragon hunter and all the ex-gloom and doom prophets now singing about Anet everlasting glory…lol

P.S – @ReaperJr.5967…so marauder staff would survive even without tempest? wow….such bold statement, pls prove it with a video how you gain same sustain/damage of marauder tempest staff..GL

You obviously don’t play ele. And the burden of proof is not on me.

Not only I play Ele but I can confirm also that my knowledge of the class far exceed yours, for this very reason I’ll be always very vocal against excessive buffs to the elite that would bring the ele back to FOTM status.

ESL Tournie has showed to all of us that those who claim tempest is bad as elite, have various L2P issues, if ESL players can land overloads with ease at that level and you can’t ….then guess where the problem lies…

I have not switched to core ele since HoT launch, having success everywhere using various trait set ups , no profession/elite has proved to be an impossible fight…and I simply adore the warhorn, it suits me just too well; this doesn’t stop me from using all other weapon set with tempest.

The addition of invigorating torrent was the last thing tempest really needed, it’s now viable, strong ..but not broken OP as it was pre oct patch d/d fire ele.

The truth is I’m glad that for once ele got a viable spec that actually require a min of skill to play effectively and not something like the old fire d/d ele with RoF spam that any newb could run in soloq and do good with, while not having full knowledge of the class

The “big” guys like tempest, one even won the last ESL tournie so.. tempest is bad? nahh..it’s a L2P issue

I almost took you seriously. You should add me up for some good old marauder mirror duels.

Jokes aside, landing overloads isn’t the problem. Never was. What you just said only proved that you’re inept at even realising what the issue with Tempest with.

Tempest, on its own, isn’t bad. Tempest, when compared to other elite specs, is. Why? Because tempest offers nothing the traditional ele cannot offer.

As for people who won ESL with tempest, it’s because they are better than their opponents. Either that or they are testing strats involving tempest in tournament settings, and it worked. That does not necessary mean tempest is good. Quite the contrary.

Well I mean its totally true that tempest isn’t as differentiated from base elementalist in terms of role and what it can do for a team compared to say ranger vs. druid, however I’d still argue that its differentiated by being a completely different playstyle than base ele. The old synergies of water-arcana don’t work well with the concept of tempest, so the most viable builds for tempest use air and earth instead, which I think is amazing, since everyone had been lamenting being forced into water and arcane until the end of time.

I’d also argue that Tempest just fits in with the current meta a lot betterbase elementalist. Fire D/D ele can’t survive dragonhunter trap bursts very well, so almost all of the people still playing base ele have swapped to stone heart builds to handle it. Tempest handles this better by being able to run focus and earth traits and having higher personal and comparable group protection uptime, and Air overload is extremely high AoE damage and vuln stacking that doesn’t even need mightstacking to do work with cele stats (I’ve taken 10K from other tempests in celestial from the death breakdown with air overload), unlike base ele which needs to slowly accumulate mightstacks to be effective. Wash the Pain Away and the shouts that apply healing auras provide so much healing that we really don’t need water traits at all to output good healing with tempest.

D/D ele might still be a bit better in 1v1s, but the new meta is so teamfight oriented that being great in teamfights is a lot more important than being a good duelist, and even then, fresh air diamond skin tempest can still hold 1v1s relatively well.

I agree with you somewhat. However imo water is still mandatory. Without it, once you run into condi builds you’re a goner. And yes, fire dd basically gets countered by dh, so everyone runs d/x now. Personally I run d/f earth/water/Arcana or tempest. The problem with that is, arcana performs better than tempest. Now I was thinking the issue might be because I have no fresh air, so remove water right? Where do I get my condi cleanses then?

Supreme.3164:

Dunno why this thread..if the OP doesn’t like tempest, he can simply go and play other professions, this is a simple drama thread that offers no feedback but only insults from the OP towards anyone that disagree with him.

You’re right. This is a salt thread. Nonetheless, I’ve posted many other threads stating what the issues tempest had to no avail. Anet just doesn’t care. I also don’t want ele to become fotm again (if you notice I called for ele nerfs before I realised the other elite specs were so op), but tempest is ridiculous(ly bad).

‘If you don’t like x, just don’t play x.’ That’s a very shallow comment on your part. Right, I could not play it. But would that solve the problem? No. Tempest remains underpowered. And I want to play tempest. I just don’t like that it’s so underwhelming.

Tried a similar build. Doesn’t work. First off, sword, both main and off hand, is really bad. Primal burst doesnt root, which means it’s not worth the channel against someone who knows how to avoid it. It hurts though. Offhand wise, shield just performs better. Shield is basically mandatory to survive.

Torch imo is just underwhelming. Tried it, dislike it. And your traits are pretty weird too. Without cleansing fire synergy with primal burst, you basically get kitten d by condi bomb.

The build also can’t cleave. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing if your conditions can burst a single target down first. Problem is, it cannot. So what you end up with is a build that’s nowhere here nor there.

Supreme.3164:

ReaperJr.5967:

Supreme.3164:

Some people like to play the doom and gloom hero no matter what, they just need gw2 meta build to show them the meta tempest build and you’ll see them glorify tempest with open threads..just wait 2-3 weeks and you’ll see…I mean just watch dragon hunter and all the ex-gloom and doom prophets now singing about Anet everlasting glory…lol

P.S – @ReaperJr.5967…so marauder staff would survive even without tempest? wow….such bold statement, pls prove it with a video how you gain same sustain/damage of marauder tempest staff..GL

You obviously don’t play ele. And the burden of proof is not on me.

Not only I play Ele but I can confirm also that my knowledge of the class far exceed yours, for this very reason I’ll be always very vocal against excessive buffs to the elite that would bring the ele back to FOTM status.

ESL Tournie has showed to all of us that those who claim tempest is bad as elite, have various L2P issues, if ESL players can land overloads with ease at that level and you can’t ….then guess where the problem lies…

I have not switched to core ele since HoT launch, having success everywhere using various trait set ups , no profession/elite has proved to be an impossible fight…and I simply adore the warhorn, it suits me just too well; this doesn’t stop me from using all other weapon set with tempest.

The addition of invigorating torrent was the last thing tempest really needed, it’s now viable, strong ..but not broken OP as it was pre oct patch d/d fire ele.

The truth is I’m glad that for once ele got a viable spec that actually require a min of skill to play effectively and not something like the old fire d/d ele with RoF spam that any newb could run in soloq and do good with, while not having full knowledge of the class

The “big” guys like tempest, one even won the last ESL tournie so.. tempest is bad? nahh..it’s a L2P issue

I almost took you seriously. You should add me up for some good old marauder mirror duels.

Jokes aside, landing overloads isn’t the problem. Never was. What you just said only proved that you’re inept at even realising what the issue with Tempest with.

Tempest, on its own, isn’t bad. Tempest, when compared to other elite specs, is. Why? Because tempest offers nothing the traditional ele cannot offer.

As for people who won ESL with tempest, it’s because they are better than their opponents. Either that or they are testing strats involving tempest in tournament settings, and it worked. That does not necessary mean tempest is good. Quite the contrary.

Zanyu.2017:

First off, I haven’t played WoW, but I do not believe a strategies from a click and skill game would work in a real time action game.

Secondly, talking about mobas, I have played many of them to a competitive level. Dota, hon, heroes of the storm etc. The only thing that can be brought over from moba to gw2 are rotational abilities, map awareness and mechanical skills to a certain degree.

Anyway, usually what wins a game in mobas is usually a player that has snowballed or a player that can win team fights. Since players cannot snowball here in gw2, players that can win team fights for their team are usually the deciding factor in gw2. Especially in high mmr ranked matches.

So what are the roles that win team fights in gw2? For solo queue, it’s bruiser classes. Classes that are balanced in both offense and defense. They can put out a decent amount of damage while being able sustain themselves very well. They are also able to win 1v1s on a side node or even hold 1v2 for a significant period of time for their team to win team fights on some other node.

Burst classes don’t work, as they always get focused. Tank classes don’t work, as they get ignored. Therefore bruiser is king in solo queue. Which is also why scrapper is good.

I don’t understand your statement of WoW. Click and skill game? I feel as if this was meant towards League of Legends. WoW is a MMO just like GW2, while the combat is a bit different not to the point where any WoW player would not recognize how to play the game. They are the same genre. If you play a shooting game, some little things are different but the fundamentals are the same.

Since you brought it up, what was your competitive level of your moba career? I’m just curious.

Because there is a huge skill gap between platinum to challenger for League of Legends.

People keep bringing up “high mmr” okay from what I understand mmr is more or less determined by your win rate. But as far as I know there are no exact calculations nor is there an online calculator predicting your mmr like LoLNexus.

So really anyone who has higher than a 50% win rate can claim they have a “high mmr” Or sitting in long queues cause they have a high mmr. There is the argument that I played against X player, and they are a professional. Just because you faced a pro does not mean you have a high mmr either. Again unless there is something to show me how the mmr and queue system works in great detail then I’m going to have to look at the high mmr argument as moot. There have been queue systems where high ranked players will be matches up with severe gap differences of skill level just because of what is available. This again was part of the first 4 arena seasons of WoW, where I would be within the top 50 teams, and queue into a rank 400 team. This has happened to many occasions.

I do thank you for giving me an explanation of your breakdown of class roles and why scrapper would be considered the strongest for solo queue. I want to counter this argument in the fact of how season 3 of League of Legends played out during solo queue. League definitely does go through its meta shifts, and one particular time there was a time the league of assassins, where assassin characters were the gods of solo queue. Why? They had very strong roaming and burst potential. The main example of Kassadin, his level 6 allowed him to go to other lanes, go in deal burst, get a kill or make them burn summoners.

As far as the bruiser meta goes, I can agree that scrapper would potentially be king. I mentioned it in my first post how they are in the middle allowing them to take on a heavier damage oriented support with their utilities. I just think the way the game is being played at the moment, it’s about the maximizing on people’s lack of information of how to deter from bursts. That or possibly the oversight of certain damage numbers from the developers. So for me, the way sPvP is being played is around who can deal the damage in short amount of time and still being alive. Support was lower on the list, but I ranked support as to how the support can bring more damage for the overall team.

I played a bit more daredevil tonight, it is possible that my first few times of playing as to now is slightly more different. While I rank the mobility as one of the highest of the elite specs, I think believe that their durability isn’t in line of what the reverent offers. I started to balance this by running the stealth heal, which has allowed me to escape quite a few situations. But I guess a lot of people don’t like the idea of running away without actually getting a kill.

I still have a lot to try out and I’m having a lot of fun. With Anet pushing for a competitive scene in GW2, I’m confident that balance will slowly make its way here.

Combat in wow consists of clicking on an enemy and casting a spell that cannot be dodged literally, which is also why I call it click and skill.

Before I quit moba roughly a year and a half back, I’ve hit 5.3k mmr in Dota, and 1900 mmr in hon, diamond in league. Only recently I’ve played hots to help my friend as a temporary substitute for his competitive team and reached rank 1.

As for mmr indication, it’s really quite easy to tell if you have a high mmr. First off are the queue times, secondly you’ll face against many r80s. Thirdly you’ll likely to be a r80 yourself. Lastly you’ll have a positive win rate (50+). I personally have 61%.

And yes, meta shifts, but in gw2 this has been an unchanging recipe. In a game where point holding is key, you must be able to hold a point. Also, you must be able to kill off others contesting your point. Therefore bruiser classes will likely continue being king.
Unless of course your opponents choose to ignore you when you play a burst role and focus you when you play a tank role. Then your opponents are inadequate.

Zanyu.2017:

mistsim.2748:

honestly I feel there isn’t really a tier at the moment. there are so many effective builds right now.

I feel chrono, scrapper and herald/shiro are probably top dogs for brawling. everything else is in another tier when it comes to offensive power. that being said, there are quite a few builds that dish out solid damage while bringing huge team support.

there are two mistakes that I notice less experienced players making when judging efficacy. even with its high numbers, DH really doesn’t rank that high. it’s mid-tier at best. and well-played scrappers are probably tied with the chrono for best brawling/dueling capability. this is only when discussing offense.

there is definitely a category for best all-around builds that bring a decent amount of damage and a ton of team support. druid, reaper and ele are in that category. the other misconception is that reaper is actually good in 1v1, but the truth is the spec shines mostly in team fights.

I feel he could be misinformed or trolling to rank scrapper that low. but druid is very strong for the damage, tankiness, mobility and support it brings in one package. a few of us rangers are figuring out the most effective druid builds, but the general community wont really understand the strength of these builds until druid becomes a necessary part of every meta comp in the near future.

Hm. Again maybe it is just my perception of the scrappers I’ve faced so far or the ones I’ve played with, and I want to stress that I felt that they were STRONG, but they weren’t the “kings” of the match. Does anyone remember shamans during burning crusade? Just because they have a large utility and diversity at their disposal do NOT make them the best class. Resto shamans were the GODS of rush down comps such as UA and Shadow priest + resto shaman in 3v3, Double warrior + shaman, double healer and warrior (not rush down but because of windfury it was viable) Shamans were almost staple in 5v5 because of bloodlust.

What I’m saying about scrapper from my first impression is that while they are great, I simply don’t think they win games as hard as the other classes.

It may very well be that I’m undervaluing scrappers, but the way I ranked these elite specs are about how much they can offer on the match as a whole over the course of the game if you are part of an unorganized group. So what this means is that your team is allowed to make more mistakes while coming out ahead. Does scrapper do this? Potentially with the gyros and medkits, and their consistent damage.

Again I don’t think being the best 1v1 class makes you the strongest in any case. It’s about your total impact you can consistently make for your team. I actually believe berserker can outshine most classes if they are grouped up with a support that will follow them around. But matches like conquest doesn’t really allow you to do this. I know arenanet’s position on conquest vs team death match gameplay style. I would think berserker would shine on a TDM with a coordinated team. The most important thing I’ve learned from doing WoW arenas versus high rated battlegrounds, it’s about what you can do to shift the game into your advantage through numbers and not consistency of engaging and disengaging in the small skrims on the roads and not near points.

I’ll play more with scrapper and daredevil see if my opinion changes of them. But it’s been three days and I think people are still learning what to do against other classes and figuring out what’s best to win the game. Many people are so focused on their 1v1s and small skrimishes that they aren’t focusing what they can win bring to win the game with.

Have you ever been in a league of legends game where top/mid lane will be 12-2-3, then 45 mintues later is 12-12-4? Then they yell about how everyone else did poorly and that they played amazing but everyone on the team let them down?

Maybe some of you are getting tired of other game references, but I do hope I’m offering a different perspective to the PvP community. I don’t believe to know everything about PvP and balance, but I like to win games. I don’t care about my personal score, how many kills I got and how much damage I dealt, or that “oh lol I let this guy chase me for the whole match.”

Focus on what you can do to win the game, and how do these classes accomplish the objectives at hand.

I think if you’re a class that is a roamer and NEED to skirmish. How can you reduce the amount of information that is being telegraphed to the rest of the team (Does the enemy team see you breaking off?), how fast can you take your opponent out, and how consistent can you do this?

For support, how much can you increase your teams damage output and win the fight? Can you get in and out of fights and help another area once you know you’ve claimed this point?

The tanks, how much damage and disruption can you cause? You’re a mosquito, keep sucking the life-force out of others until you annoy them so much that they go after you.

First off, I haven’t played WoW, but I do not believe a strategies from a click and skill game would work in a real time action game.

Secondly, talking about mobas, I have played many of them to a competitive level. Dota, hon, heroes of the storm etc. The only thing that can be brought over from moba to gw2 are rotational abilities, map awareness and mechanical skills to a certain degree.

Anyway, usually what wins a game in mobas is usually a player that has snowballed or a player that can win team fights. Since players cannot snowball here in gw2, players that can win team fights for their team are usually the deciding factor in gw2. Especially in high mmr ranked matches.

So what are the roles that win team fights in gw2? For solo queue, it’s bruiser classes. Classes that are balanced in both offense and defense. They can put out a decent amount of damage while being able sustain themselves very well. They are also able to win 1v1s on a side node or even hold 1v2 for a significant period of time for their team to win team fights on some other node.

Burst classes don’t work, as they always get focused. Tank classes don’t work, as they get ignored. Therefore bruiser is king in solo queue. Which is also why scrapper is good.

Marcos.3690:

Today I reached my 100th PvP game of Tempest and I would like to analyze its new mechanic (overloading). I’ll write about the relation between cost and reward.

Cost

1- Wait 5 seconds in an attunement:
This wait-time ruins your attunement rotation. Being an elementalist you don’t want to stay in an attunement more than 3-3.5 seconds as you want to cicle fast in order to get more healing, boons, damage and condition cleansing. At the same time the autoattacks are usually underwhelming which means that you are basically going to waste a couple of seconds every time you prepare to overload.

2- Channel the overload during 4 more seconds:
This makes you extremely vulnerable to any kind of burst damage, condition and CC.

3-While overloading you are still locked in the same attunement:
Since you had to wait for 5 seconds earlier and now you are channeling for 4, all your other attunements are recharged already (5+4=9 is the attunement recharge).
Being forced to channel means that you are being extremely innefficient as you are wasting a whole rotation of boons, healing, condition cleanse and damage.

4- The overloaded attunement becomes locked for 20 seconds
20 seconds is the 200% of the base recharge rate which is huge. Not only you ruined your current attunement rotation but you are also paying with the following one.

We lost 1 rotation and made another one inefficient and therefore we are losing a ton of value (boons, damage, healing, condition cleanse). At this point you will be thinking that the reward is going to be insane. I have bad news.

Reward

1- Fire: Pulses burning and 5-6 ish might. You can get more might if you decide to stand in the small area and not move (root yourself, more drawbacks to get the full value).
2- Water: Cleanses conditions and heals.
3- Air: Deals damage. Applies vulnerability.
4- Earth: Grants protection, cripples, bleeds, immobilizes.

Cost-Reward
1- Fire: This ability should never be casted as the cost is way too high for just 5 might. You could get way more than that by doing your natural rotation. The damage is underwhelming.

2- Water: although this one may seem good, the fact that you lock yourself out of water for 20 seconds means that you will die in the next rotation. You might heal more now, but in the long run you will be losing.

3- Air: The cost is super high but at least the damage is great. Maybe the only barely usable overload.

4- Earth: Again decent, but the cost is so high it’s not worth casting.

Overall we have mediocre and average effects at an incredibly high cost. Therefore, most overloads never see any play.

Possible fixes

Two directions could be taken

a) Increase the reward: I think this would be the most interesting one. High cost high reward gameplay is usually the most enjoyable in PvP games.
If this direction is followed, only fire, water and earth need to be buffed. Air is already OKish.

b) Reduce the cost. This would require less effort by anet than option a). I will brainstorm a few suggestions (only one should be taken)

- You can swap attunements while channeling the overload (nice synergy with traits such as rock solid and elemental attunement. Probably the natural option)

- You are not forced to wait 5 seconds before starting the channel. This is a good option as it would make the stunbreak on overloads actually usable. However overloads would then become a consequence to CC, rather than a proactive play.

- Don’t punish the tempest with extended cooldowns after overloading. Overload can still have the 20 sec recharge, but attunement shouldn’t.

- Make harmonious conduit (1 stack of stability when overloading) baseline, minor or adept tier. Right now it is competing with Invigorating torrents which is too good too pass.

- Change “Rebound!” to “Your following Overload channel is instant”

- Change “Superior rune of the tempest” bonus. It now grants stability and protection while overloading (or when you use a shout – “feel the burn” synergy)

Great analysis. This is one of the few gems you can find among the trash in forums that is ele hate. They just want to see us underpowered and keep it that way. Good job.

online.1278:

Warrior is fine as of now.

We just need a little bit buff on both condi and physical damage of all skills of all warrior weapons, but that is not that much gap that would make you even quit warrior.

People Now just tend to play other classes because their new trait other than warrior seem a lot better than what we received, berserker trait.

However, besides that, if you play ShoutBow or Banner Shout, warrior works totally fine.

People just diminished warrior for now temporarily becuz only new content Berserker trait works not great so they are jusy trying other classes.

I am pretty sure they will come back to warrior when getting bored in the future, especially when DragonHunter new stuffs got nerfed. Of course they are OP. But it doesn’t mean that berserker should need to be also OP.

I am writitng down it as I have played high ranking people since patch. There is almost no problem except so many range & invisible CC from Dragon hunter in terms of balance. I havent met decent druid yet but with ShoutBow or Banner Shout I had no prob. they looked very tanky tho. But let me more experience them before making conclusion about druids.

Thus, I would say it is just that Dragonhunter, Rev, druid those stuffs are current OP. Berserker itself is fine. And that is why every people playing those now. Warrior is fine but just nerf those dragonhunter things would solve the problem.

You can go my twitch below to check warrior builds that currently works well and play video of them.

I’m inclined to agree, except that berserker needs a slight buff even if all the op elite specs are nerfed to our level. Also, note that not everyone wants to play a shoutheal sustain warrior. We want to be able to burst and not melt instantly after our stances are down.. like chronomancers etc.

Fortus.6175:

ReaperJr.5967:

Fortus.6175:

Iohanna.4863:

Tempest is a dream-come-true for Earth / Water / Arcana Bunker Support Celestial Staff Elementalists in sPVP. Replace Arcana with Tempest: no more wasting dodges to proc Evasive Arcana and constantly switching attunements to maximize benefit from Arcana.

With Shouts instead of Cantrips, you now remove 2 conditions (instead of 1) per utility slot. You also get Protection, burst heals, and Auras – all of which Cantrips lacked. You get an Armor of Earth 2.0 (Overload Earth) every 20 seconds, and it doesn’t even take up a slot! Vanilla Bunker Ele was always immune to crits in Earth attunement, but now your utilities give you enough healing, cleansing, and protection to pretty much never need to switch out of Earth! If you get grossly outnumbered, you still have the good old Unsteady Earth to cover your escape while you switch into Water to recover. Except now you also have Overload Earth to hasten your escape! (It is unfortunate that Lightning Flash must be sacrificed, but one cannot have everything.)

In a team fight, both Fire and Air have excellent damage options. And everything your Shouts give you can be SHARED TO 5 ALLIES! All that protection, heals, regen, vigor, condi-cleanses, etc.

And if you want swiftness, you have Earth 2 into Air 5, Air 4, and your Overloads.

Constant source of Regen, Vigor, Protection, and heals. Immune to crits. Practically immune to conditions. Respectable access to damage, swiftness, stability, and stun-break.

Field tested – pretty overpowered bunker! Just…no Lightning Flash.

You know, upon reading your post I too decided to drop arcana for earth. My biggest issue with Tempest right now was the lack of reliable stun breaker. Healing wise I was unkillable, it took 2 people to kil me and I would just heal most things up. However if any of them brought any CC they could mildly chain, I would die before the end of it all. Now I have a [near]on-command 10 secs CD stability. I must ask though, since Im at work and cant field test, does attuning to earth with the stability grant me a stun break?

From my knowledge it does. Its just one stack though. But in all honesty, being able to survive isn’t much of an issue for tempest in general. Its being able to survive and dish out pressure. Sure tempest/water/defensive traitline makes you survive. But so does earth/water/arcane. The problem? Tempest/water/defense traitline has almost no pressure at all.

You can make it sound good, say we can survive, share boons, support etc. But at the end of the day, so can other elite specs (cue Herald) and more, they can dish out damage too. But you can’t.

Dont ask me how I was able to try it at work, but I was able to test it in-game, it doesnt break stun. Deleted my post anyways since now it no longer applies to me.

I will give earth a try and post how it goes.

As far as pressure, true, we lack any burst, but I have been able to bring down several foes by attrition wars. I use cleric, not celestial, which gives me more raw damage, more healing, at the cost of passive defense. I have to be constantly on my tip toes but with a fully casted air/fire overload I can wear them down enough to make them go off point for a bit, and if they decide to stay, I can actually kill them if they dont pay attention to heir health (bad players, I know, but without ranked it is noobfest out there)

It’s a veryyyyyyy long attrition war given the survivability of all the classes atm. Which usually isn’t a good thing. The pre -spec patch ele used to do the same thing (00266), just that then the classes weren’t so obscenely op. So it worked. Post HoT it doesn’t work anymore.

Dirame.8521:

ReaperJr.5967:

Forums are completely devoid of ele qq now, yay! That means our class is okay and doesn’t suck right? Looks at tempest

It’s just sad that gw2 pvp has regressed till this state. Massive power creep across all classes except warrior and Ele, which makes us irrelevant. Even with a build that was strong pre-expac.

You know balance was thrown out of the window when a spec that was strong becomes under – average after the expac. I called it too. Rip ele #timetomainrev

Yea sure, blowing people up in one overcharge is totally not strong and applying 5 condis in one hit is not strong. Those things are totally weak.

What are you even talking about.

Fortus.6175:

Iohanna.4863:

Tempest is a dream-come-true for Earth / Water / Arcana Bunker Support Celestial Staff Elementalists in sPVP. Replace Arcana with Tempest: no more wasting dodges to proc Evasive Arcana and constantly switching attunements to maximize benefit from Arcana.

With Shouts instead of Cantrips, you now remove 2 conditions (instead of 1) per utility slot. You also get Protection, burst heals, and Auras – all of which Cantrips lacked. You get an Armor of Earth 2.0 (Overload Earth) every 20 seconds, and it doesn’t even take up a slot! Vanilla Bunker Ele was always immune to crits in Earth attunement, but now your utilities give you enough healing, cleansing, and protection to pretty much never need to switch out of Earth! If you get grossly outnumbered, you still have the good old Unsteady Earth to cover your escape while you switch into Water to recover. Except now you also have Overload Earth to hasten your escape! (It is unfortunate that Lightning Flash must be sacrificed, but one cannot have everything.)

In a team fight, both Fire and Air have excellent damage options. And everything your Shouts give you can be SHARED TO 5 ALLIES! All that protection, heals, regen, vigor, condi-cleanses, etc.

And if you want swiftness, you have Earth 2 into Air 5, Air 4, and your Overloads.

Constant source of Regen, Vigor, Protection, and heals. Immune to crits. Practically immune to conditions. Respectable access to damage, swiftness, stability, and stun-break.

Field tested – pretty overpowered bunker! Just…no Lightning Flash.

You know, upon reading your post I too decided to drop arcana for earth. My biggest issue with Tempest right now was the lack of reliable stun breaker. Healing wise I was unkillable, it took 2 people to kil me and I would just heal most things up. However if any of them brought any CC they could mildly chain, I would die before the end of it all. Now I have a [near]on-command 10 secs CD stability. I must ask though, since Im at work and cant field test, does attuning to earth with the stability grant me a stun break?

From my knowledge it does. Its just one stack though. But in all honesty, being able to survive isn’t much of an issue for tempest in general. Its being able to survive and dish out pressure. Sure tempest/water/defensive traitline makes you survive. But so does earth/water/arcane. The problem? Tempest/water/defense traitline has almost no pressure at all.

You can make it sound good, say we can survive, share boons, support etc. But at the end of the day, so can other elite specs (cue Herald) and more, they can dish out damage too. But you can’t.

Supreme.3164:

Some people like to play the doom and gloom hero no matter what, they just need gw2 meta build to show them the meta tempest build and you’ll see them glorify tempest with open threads..just wait 2-3 weeks and you’ll see…I mean just watch dragon hunter and all the ex-gloom and doom prophets now singing about Anet everlasting glory…lol

P.S – @ReaperJr.5967…so marauder staff would survive even without tempest? wow….such bold statement, pls prove it with a video how you gain same sustain/damage of marauder tempest staff..GL

You obviously don’t play ele. And the burden of proof is not on me.

Iohanna.4863:

1v1 you camp Earth attunement, and you CANNOT DIE. You don’t even need to move. Nothing beyond overwhelming numbers hurts you. Your Shouts do everything for you – healing, cleansing, protection, all shared with your allies. You just pop your Shouts + Earth cool-downs, auto-attack, and laugh as their full DPS build does absolutely nothing! In fact, they’re dying instead because I’m using Celestial gear so my attacks actually hurt.

2 vs 1 is a more appropriate challenge. I actually need to switch attunements sometimes, and use my dodges, and hide behind terrain.

3 vs 1 is very difficult, but I can last 5 to 10 seconds before they force me off the point. Goal in this case is to keep enemies busy as opposed to protecting the point.

Greater odds is much of the same thing, except I abandon the point immediately.

I don’t use Tempest in PVE.

I was about to take you seriously and then you posted this. Oh well.

Warriors? We have such a class?

What? I’m sorry but you just make no sense.

Able to clear conditions without cantrips =/= strong. It just means we have an alternative playstyle.

And even then, if you were to substitute aura for cantrips for condition clear, you will still need water traitline, so why run something sub optimal?

Moreover, marauder staff ele is able to survive even without tempest. The key weakness of the build are burst builds able to kill you almost instantly and tenpest does nothing to mitigate that. Tempest boost to survivability, if any, is minute at best.

Also, tempest brings nothing new to the table that traditional ele cannot already do. The only overload worth using is the air overload which boosts our damage quite a bit if we can channel the whole overload without repercussions (unlikely).

I’m seriously doubting the quality of your games if you’re able to 1v2 revenants with a marauder staff ele tempest build. Any half decent shiro/glint s/s staff revenant capable of facerolling his keyboard will be able to melt you (a full channel of unrelenting assault straight out kills you if you are unable to mitigate it).

Enlighten me?

Thuggernaut.1250:

Mcrocha.3891:

No he said it might change, he confirmed nothing. And it’s not a moot point, it’s integral to the argument that you can’t complain about the change to AF because it’s not comparable to adrenaline.

Nobody here is complaining about the changes to Astral Force. More power to you. I think I might grind out the Hero Points for a Druid now myself.

We’re complaining that Adrenaline isn’t getting the same treatment.

This. Or rather, warrior as a whole.

I’d like to hear why everyone thinks tempest is good. Its bottom tier along with berserker.

Go play a warrior, use the burst skills. Compare them to druid ‘s celestial form. See how op celestial form is compared to warriors burst skills. See that you’re stupid for even trying to justify AF buff. Come back and delete your post.

Then the revenants you’re playing against are incompetent. Pray tell though, what makes you think tempest is strong?