This is defenitely going to make evryone break up into 5 man groups. I know this has broken any chance that I will run in a zerg anymore. All the new changes make it so all we have to do is take an objective(tower/keep) on reset night and then break up in to 5 man teams and defend. Good luck trying to stop us ZERG muhahahahaha.
The new AC’s cant hurt us in small groups … oh wait…….
We will defenitely be able to take a keep tower with 5 ppl though… oh wait…
You have a lot more time on your hands than I do I guess. I can recall many times trying to hit a T3 Hills for 4+ hours and then maybe get into inner. Then a lot of times another hour plus in tries at the lords room. I guess that is not long enough for you. Would you like it to take days.
Yes, that’s obviously what is going to happen, you won’t be able to take t3 keeps for days. I’m sorry, but do you read what you type as you enter it? The insipid arguments in this thread (on the first day with no proof nontheless) make me gag.
1) you can’t see through most of the keep gates
2) you can’t shoot all 6-8 arrow carts behind the gates faster than enemies gonna spot you and take down your ac
3) 1700 supply in t3 keep , gl to take down enemy ac with counter ac wich can be killed from the walls and new ac will be builded behind the walls , srsly , good luck with it xD
4) you can’t build your treb to take down enemy ac when defenders got counter treb
5) you can’t build ac when you under fire.
result : defenders always wins now , no chance to take enemy t3 keep if its defended by 10-15 people with correct placed siege weapons.
oh wait , 10 omeg golems for each keep , each day…. no way , better to leave the game than work for golems.
You want a fully upgraded keep with full supply to be easy to take? Man, are higher tiers really this whiny? Those of us in lower tiers are used to starving out a fully upgraded keep of supply and taking out their siege so they constantly repair it and lose it. Yeah it takes awhile, but it also took a kitten long time and money to upgrade that to tier 3.
Pro-zerg arguments fail hard.
You have a lot more time on your hands than I do I guess. I can recall many times trying to hit a T3 Hills for 4+ hours and then maybe get into inner. Then a lot of times another hour plus in tries at the lords room. I guess that is not long enough for you. Would you like it to take days.
It’s not just the AC’s that is the problem, it is the patch as a whole. No more swirleys makes sieging a keep with a treb near impossible. It will be treb, counter treb, oh wait you build a counter to my counter, im gonna build another counter and so on. So to siege down a keep wall you are looking at IDK 20 trebs lol. You can no longer ram because 5 AC’s will wipe anyone within range at any door. Catas will be near useless as they can just build a ballista. and you will not be able to get close enough to take out AC’s. So then yo ugo back and try to place an open field treb LOL. you cant swirley so that is taken out in 2-3 shots while you have to hit the wall 50 times with the treb. It was super easy to defend before unless you failed miserably at WvW. Now you don’t even have too.
Not too mention based o nthe wording it sounds like you cannot contest a WP anymore either.
The only problem with this is that there is only a couple areas I can think of where a counter treb cannot be countered, but that is a separate issue altogether.
Other than that, why can’t the attackers counter the counter treb then?
But then it is just treb warring back and forth and no more fighting and not everyone can be on the trebs at the same time so it becomes boring. This is not a solution.
In terms of realism, this is proper. Siege in real life can take months before any progress is made.
In terms of battle and WvW itself, keeps/towers aren’t the only objectives available. You’ll still see large scale battles, just not necessarily at keeps/towers (at “worst” case scenario). In other words, you still get what you want.
But our matches only last a week.
If they extend the matches to a month this would be ok. Then we can just sit at a keep and treb other keeps for a week at a time and maybe take a keep now and then. Oh wait but the AC’s will stop that.
Maybe a couple AC’s you can heal through. You cannot heal through 6+ AC’s, they kill you and your ram very quickly.
I’m sorry, but why the kitten, are you trying to ram a gate with 6 ACs? That’s seems incredibly kittening stupid, I thought those kinds of people were weeded out in higher tiers :P.
1. enemy places rams
2. defenders grab supply from keep and build 4-6+ AC’s
3. Rain hell down on rams.
Seems simple to me
You’re telling me, that they have enough time and people to get 4-6 AC’s up instead of just killing the rams themselves? Either you fail at ramming by taking forever, they had a kittenton of people and you were going to fail anyway, or you are talking crap.
Lol, it is not uncommon for a group in T2 to have 400+ supply in thier group. Insta building AC’s is common place. There are also places to build AC’s that cannot be hit with AoE but I bet you did not know that either.
Lol, you can but it becomes a game of who can get the most treb built faster. That is not fun. I thought it was fun to be able to lay siege to a keep. After spending sometimes hours hitting it over and over to get them to use up thier supply. You finally get them staved get to the gate and have to try to either build a hundred trebs to counter thiers lol, or try to get catas up and wear it down over days while they keep killing your catas with trebs. They have limited the options with all of these changes.
Maybe a couple AC’s you can heal through. You cannot heal through 6+ AC’s, they kill you and your ram very quickly.
I’m sorry, but why the kitten, are you trying to ram a gate with 6 ACs? That’s seems incredibly kittening stupid, I thought those kinds of people were weeded out in higher tiers :P.
1. enemy places rams
2. defenders grab supply from keep and build 4-6+ AC’s
I am not sure how this will any way break up zergs LOL. So an AC can only kill 50+ but they will not kill 5??? If anything it will just require a larger zerg to take objectives. I cant wait for next week the forums will be :
You created a zerg on my sever because no one could take any keeps anymore unless they had a huge zerg to counter the AC’s.
Who says they cannot kill 5? Arrow carts are effective up to 50. Bigger than 50? Compensate with even more arrow carts. The PvD “tactics” lost viability thus zerging itself lost viability… which is good.
There are also a limit to how big zergs can get thanks to WvW population caps. If defense measures overcompensate, then we could see the end of reckless zerging. If a map-wide zerg is needed to take down one objective, then every other point is undefended which makes it risky to zerg.
Appearantly everyone that wanted this. This is the ZERG buster, I am not sure how? This is the everyone buster LOL. No one will be able to take any towers/keeps. This will do nothing but encourage zerging as the only way to take a tower/keep now is a megazerg.
I’m afraid you missed my point… completely.
If fewer defenders are needed to stop a big zerg, then remaining player resources can be used to capture objectives. The zerging server have to muster up all their player resources to take a single objective which leaves every other objective badly defended, allowing the defending server to take them with less effort.
By definition, that is zerg depromotion. If a mega zerg is built, then chances are the mega zerging server will lose many of their other points to capture one point. The server wouldn’t want that. There’s also a limit to how big a zerg can get as well.
Actually, they’ll only need a couple people to defend what’s theirs as well. It cancels each other out.
Which is good, because in that case the winning server wouldn’t be determined by sheer numbers.
You stopped making sense. Please try again. Try explaining every single aspect of this new patch and how it won’t break the game for me. Explain it to me like you think I’m an idiot, like I’m sure you do.
Are you implying that victory isn’t determined by numbers right now? If yes, then I’ve made my point. If not, then explain to me why else zerging isn’t a problem in WvW.
Hmmm. WvW, this implies large scale battles not 5 on 5. sPvP is for 5 on 5.
If Anet designed WvW to be 5 on 5 then I doubt they would have advertives large scale combat with hundreds of other players. It would have been small scale combat with many small groups.
WvW is meant to accommodate both small skirmishes and large scale battles. Right now small skirmishes are insignificant compared to large battles. It’s just two or three zergs going around and taking objectives.
Ruprect
So as of right now you have no problems taking a T3 tower from JQ. You can go do it anytime you like.
hahahahahahahahahaha
Any reason I should be able to do it “whenever I want”? Taking T3s are meant to be difficult. Are you saying they shouldn’t be?
The buffed up arrow carts only make it more difficult, but only if you insist on zerging it.
Here is the problem, in my Tier it can take hours of setup to take a keep before this buff. It was very easy to stop a group with AC’s, it was extremely easy to defend a keep. This will make it impossible to take a keep now if you have anywhere near a competetive tier. And this was fun, hours is fine, days is not.
All because of arrow carts? Whatever happened to catapults and trebuchets? The only way I see that taking keeps could be difficult with the new arrow carts in effect is if players insist on smashing doors with swords, rifles, and bows.
Catapults and trebuchets do far more damage than players can on doors anyway.
You can no longer block treb/cata shots. The attacker has to hit the wall/door 50+ times to take it down. A counter treb needs to hit the treb like 3 times to stop it.
If they had buffed AC’s and left blocking alone this may not be as big of a deal.
Honestly, I love Siege Wars. Seriously, in every game I’ve ever played, I’ve been that guy who managed the turrets and defenses and stuff. I’m ecstatic that commanders will have more reason to place siege weaponry in open-field combat, and that zergs will have reason to siege structures from range whenever possible.
I mean, I get that it’s a pretty massive buff, but in my experience I’ve been able to comfortably heal through AC fire, and in a zerg the things were barely noticeable with all the healing going on.
Maybe a couple AC’s you can heal through. You cannot heal through 6+ AC’s, they kill you and your ram very quickly.
I am not sure how this will any way break up zergs LOL. So an AC can only kill 50+ but they will not kill 5??? If anything it will just require a larger zerg to take objectives. I cant wait for next week the forums will be :
You created a zerg on my sever because no one could take any keeps anymore unless they had a huge zerg to counter the AC’s.
Who says they cannot kill 5? Arrow carts are effective up to 50. Bigger than 50? Compensate with even more arrow carts. The PvD “tactics” lost viability thus zerging itself lost viability… which is good.
There are also a limit to how big zergs can get thanks to WvW population caps. If defense measures overcompensate, then we could see the end of reckless zerging. If a map-wide zerg is needed to take down one objective, then every other point is undefended which makes it risky to zerg.
Appearantly everyone that wanted this. This is the ZERG buster, I am not sure how? This is the everyone buster LOL. No one will be able to take any towers/keeps. This will do nothing but encourage zerging as the only way to take a tower/keep now is a megazerg.
I’m afraid you missed my point… completely.
If fewer defenders are needed to stop a big zerg, then remaining player resources can be used to capture objectives. The zerging server have to muster up all their player resources to take a single objective which leaves every other objective badly defended, allowing the defending server to take them with less effort.
By definition, that is zerg depromotion. If a mega zerg is built, then chances are the mega zerging server will lose many of their other points to capture one point. The server wouldn’t want that. There’s also a limit to how big a zerg can get as well.
Actually, they’ll only need a couple people to defend what’s theirs as well. It cancels each other out.
Which is good, because in that case the winning server wouldn’t be determined by sheer numbers.
You stopped making sense. Please try again. Try explaining every single aspect of this new patch and how it won’t break the game for me. Explain it to me like you think I’m an idiot, like I’m sure you do.
Are you implying that victory isn’t determined by numbers right now? If yes, then I’ve made my point. If not, then explain to me why else zerging isn’t a problem in WvW.
Hmmm. WvW, this implies large scale battles not 5 on 5. sPvP is for 5 on 5.
If Anet designed WvW to be 5 on 5 then I doubt they would have advertives large scale combat with hundreds of other players. It would have been small scale combat with many small groups.
WvW is meant to accommodate both small skirmishes and large scale battles. Right now small skirmishes are insignificant compared to large battles. It’s just two or three zergs going around and taking objectives.
Ruprect
So as of right now you have no problems taking a T3 tower from JQ. You can go do it anytime you like.
hahahahahahahahahaha
Any reason I should be able to do it “whenever I want”? Taking T3s are meant to be difficult. Are you saying they shouldn’t be?
The buffed up arrow carts only make it more difficult, but only if you insist on zerging it.
Here is the problem, in my Tier it can take hours of setup to take a keep before this buff. It was very easy to stop a group with AC’s, it was extremely easy to defend a keep. This will make it impossible to take a keep now if you have anywhere near a competetive tier. And this was fun, hours is fine, days is not.
Maybe in T8, in T2 it was very difficult to take a T3 tower/keep before this nonsense.
“Difficult” is subjective. A better answer is to say how many times a T3 tower/keep gets flipped per day. I’m on SoR, and from what I see, T3s get flipped several times a day.
So as of right now you have no problems taking a T3 tower from JQ. You can go do it anytime you like.
I am not sure how this will any way break up zergs LOL. So an AC can only kill 50+ but they will not kill 5??? If anything it will just require a larger zerg to take objectives. I cant wait for next week the forums will be :
You created a zerg on my sever because no one could take any keeps anymore unless they had a huge zerg to counter the AC’s.
Who says they cannot kill 5? Arrow carts are effective up to 50. Bigger than 50? Compensate with even more arrow carts. The PvD “tactics” lost viability thus zerging itself lost viability… which is good.
There are also a limit to how big zergs can get thanks to WvW population caps. If defense measures overcompensate, then we could see the end of reckless zerging. If a map-wide zerg is needed to take down one objective, then every other point is undefended which makes it risky to zerg.
Appearantly everyone that wanted this. This is the ZERG buster, I am not sure how? This is the everyone buster LOL. No one will be able to take any towers/keeps. This will do nothing but encourage zerging as the only way to take a tower/keep now is a megazerg.
I’m afraid you missed my point… completely.
If fewer defenders are needed to stop a big zerg, then remaining player resources can be used to capture objectives. The zerging server have to muster up all their player resources to take a single objective which leaves every other objective badly defended, allowing the defending server to take them with less effort.
By definition, that is zerg depromotion. If a mega zerg is built, then chances are the mega zerging server will lose many of their other points to capture one point. The server wouldn’t want that. There’s also a limit to how big a zerg can get as well.
Actually, they’ll only need a couple people to defend what’s theirs as well. It cancels each other out.
Which is good, because in that case the winning server wouldn’t be determined by sheer numbers.
You stopped making sense. Please try again. Try explaining every single aspect of this new patch and how it won’t break the game for me. Explain it to me like you think I’m an idiot, like I’m sure you do.
Are you implying that victory isn’t determined by numbers right now? If yes, then I’ve made my point. If not, then explain to me why else zerging isn’t a problem in WvW.
Hmmm. WvW, this implies large scale battles not 5 on 5. sPvP is for 5 on 5.
If Anet designed WvW to be 5 on 5 then I doubt they would have advertives large scale combat with hundreds of other players. It would have been small scale combat with many small groups.
I am not sure how this will any way break up zergs LOL. So an AC can only kill 50+ but they will not kill 5??? If anything it will just require a larger zerg to take objectives. I cant wait for next week the forums will be :
You created a zerg on my sever because no one could take any keeps anymore unless they had a huge zerg to counter the AC’s.
Who says they cannot kill 5? Arrow carts are effective up to 50. Bigger than 50? Compensate with even more arrow carts. The PvD “tactics” lost viability thus zerging itself lost viability… which is good.
There are also a limit to how big zergs can get thanks to WvW population caps. If defense measures overcompensate, then we could see the end of reckless zerging. If a map-wide zerg is needed to take down one objective, then every other point is undefended which makes it risky to zerg.
Appearantly everyone that wanted this. This is the ZERG buster, I am not sure how? This is the everyone buster LOL. No one will be able to take any towers/keeps. This will do nothing but encourage zerging as the only way to take a tower/keep now is a megazerg.
I’m afraid you missed my point… completely.
If fewer defenders are needed to stop a big zerg, then remaining player resources can be used to capture objectives. The zerging server have to muster up all their player resources to take a single objective which leaves every other objective badly defended, allowing the defending server to take them with less effort.
By definition, that is zerg depromotion. If a mega zerg is built, then chances are the mega zerging server will lose many of their other points to capture one point. The server wouldn’t want that. There’s also a limit to how big a zerg can get as well.
Actually, they’ll only need a couple people to defend what’s theirs as well. It cancels each other out.
Which is good, because in that case the winning server wouldn’t be determined by sheer numbers.
No it will be determined on reset night by who can take the most keeps and upgrade them. If you get doors upgraded you are good for reset night, if you get a WP, you are set all week. Just sentry a few in the tower/keep and wait to win.
I just checked and since improved cond. damage and duration work on arrowcart, I can 3.5k with the number 3 skill PER TICK on superior arrowcart. They should’ve decreased damage on arrowcart, instead of decreasing it since it was already the most used siege.
I am not sure how this will any way break up zergs LOL. So an AC can only kill 50+ but they will not kill 5??? If anything it will just require a larger zerg to take objectives. I cant wait for next week the forums will be :
You created a zerg on my sever because no one could take any keeps anymore unless they had a huge zerg to counter the AC’s.
Who says they cannot kill 5? Arrow carts are effective up to 50. Bigger than 50? Compensate with even more arrow carts. The PvD “tactics” lost viability thus zerging itself lost viability… which is good.
There are also a limit to how big zergs can get thanks to WvW population caps. If defense measures overcompensate, then we could see the end of reckless zerging. If a map-wide zerg is needed to take down one objective, then every other point is undefended which makes it risky to zerg.
Appearantly everyone that wanted this. This is the ZERG buster, I am not sure how? This is the everyone buster LOL. No one will be able to take any towers/keeps. This will do nothing but encourage zerging as the only way to take a tower/keep now is a megazerg.
I’m afraid you missed my point… completely.
If fewer defenders are needed to stop a big zerg, then remaining player resources can be used to capture objectives. The zerging server have to muster up all their player resources to take a single objective which leaves every other objective badly defended, allowing the defending server to take them with less effort.
By definition, that is zerg depromotion. If a mega zerg is built, then chances are the mega zerging server will lose many of their other points to capture one point. The server wouldn’t want that. There’s also a limit to how big a zerg can get as well.
Actually, they’ll only need a couple people to defend what’s theirs as well. It cancels each other out.
That is exactly what I meant by the everyone buster.
I am not sure how this will any way break up zergs LOL. So an AC can only kill 50+ but they will not kill 5??? If anything it will just require a larger zerg to take objectives. I cant wait for next week the forums will be :
You created a zerg on my sever because no one could take any keeps anymore unless they had a huge zerg to counter the AC’s.
Who says they cannot kill 5? Arrow carts are effective up to 50. Bigger than 50? Compensate with even more arrow carts. The PvD “tactics” lost viability thus zerging itself lost viability… which is good.
There are also a limit to how big zergs can get thanks to WvW population caps. If defense measures overcompensate, then we could see the end of reckless zerging. If a map-wide zerg is needed to take down one objective, then every other point is undefended which makes it risky to zerg.
Appearantly everyone that wanted this. This is the ZERG buster, I am not sure how? This is the everyone buster LOL. No one will be able to take any towers/keeps. This will do nothing but encourage zerging as the only way to take a tower/keep now is a megazerg.
I’m afraid you missed my point… completely.
If fewer defenders are needed to stop a big zerg, then remaining player resources can be used to capture objectives. The zerging server have to muster up all their player resources to take a single objective which leaves every other objective badly defended, allowing the defending server to take them with less effort.
By definition, that is zerg depromotion. If a mega zerg is built, then chances are the mega zerging server will lose many of their other points to capture one point. The server wouldn’t want that. There’s also a limit to how big a zerg can get as well.
Wrong, all that has to be done is leave 2 people at each objective to kill your 5 man team with 2 ac’s lol
I am not sure how this will any way break up zergs LOL. So an AC can only kill 50+ but they will not kill 5??? If anything it will just require a larger zerg to take objectives. I cant wait for next week the forums will be :
You created a zerg on my sever because no one could take any keeps anymore unless they had a huge zerg to counter the AC’s.
Who says they cannot kill 5? Arrow carts are effective up to 50. Bigger than 50? Compensate with even more arrow carts. The PvD “tactics” lost viability thus zerging itself lost viability… which is good.
There are also a limit to how big zergs can get thanks to WvW population caps. If defense measures overcompensate, then we could see the end of reckless zerging. If a map-wide zerg is needed to take down one objective, then every other point is undefended which makes it risky to zerg.
Appearantly everyone that wanted this. This is the ZERG buster, I am not sure how? This is the everyone buster LOL. No one will be able to take any towers/keeps. This will do nothing but encourage zerging as the only way to take a tower/keep now is a megazerg.
I am not sure how this will any way break up zergs LOL. So an AC can only kill 50+ but they will not kill 5??? If anything it will just require a larger zerg to take objectives. I cant wait for next week the forums will be :
You created a zerg on my sever because no one could take any keeps anymore unless they had a huge zerg to counter the AC’s.
excellent change, need to improve WVW by totally removing mindless farming zergs.
Hmm, not sure how this hurts zergs lol. If anything it helps them.
It gives them 30 seconds before you even know they are attacking.
Commence crying now.
Orange swords would still show up if more than 25 are involved.
Right. I guess it depends on how it works, the wording leaves much to the imagination. If you can no longer contest a WP then it benefits defenders and zergs. If it is just 30 seconds before swords and then the WP gets contested then it still would be better for zergs as they have 30 seconds to get there before it gets contested. Most zergs have a scout/sentry.
I can’t believe all the hardcore “good” players crying about this. And putting down the regular players.
And the overexaggeration!
Give me a break, if you’re so good you’ll figure out a way to change and adapt. And figure out a way to get in that keep.
I guarantee that this will not make it impossible to take a structure.
This is a comment made from a person that has never played against a good guild. You do not understand how hard it is in upper tiers to take a keep the way it is. All of these changes just make it impossible. Taking a T3 keep in the upper tiers takes hour of setup followed by sometimes hours of fighting , and rarely ends with the attackers winning. Keeps were to easy to defend before.
Wrong. I’ve played against the best in T1.
Hours of setup followed by hours of fighting, sounds like great fun. Perhaps that’s the problem, we like different things and play differently.
And you’re telling me that the buff to AC’s are going to make it impossible to take that same T3 keep after hours of setup and hours of fighting. I don’t believe it.
Lets wait and see if there are no keep changes in T1 and T2 next week. I will bet you anything there are.
It was fun before, that is my point, I don’t think it needed to be changed. Now instead of hour it will just be a null point. Most doors to T3 keeps in my tier have 6+ AC’s on them, most of which are well placed and near impossible to take out. That many ac’s makes it impossible to ram a gate. Try to cata you say, they build a ballista. Try to treb, well that would have been a good idea but I can no longer block counter treb. I now have to hit their wall 50 times and they have to hit my treb 3 times to destroy it with their counter treb.
This patch really made it from fun to near impossible.
I can’t believe all the hardcore “good” players crying about this. And putting down the regular players.
And the overexaggeration!
Give me a break, if you’re so good you’ll figure out a way to change and adapt. And figure out a way to get in that keep.
I guarantee that this will not make it impossible to take a structure.
This is a comment made from a person that has never played against a good guild. You do not understand how hard it is in upper tiers to take a keep the way it is. All of these changes just make it impossible. Taking a T3 keep in the upper tiers takes hour of setup followed by sometimes hours of fighting , and rarely ends with the attackers winning. Keeps were to easy to defend before.
Nice. I’ll start reparing everything even if it is trebbed. This will give me easy WXP without griefing since it is allowed and intended to repair in order to buy time.
Lol ya, I cant imagine how they did not see this coming. Keeps will never have any supply now.
It isnt that hard to generate 6000 supplies if you have one or more 250 camps.
Or if you plunder 2800 from castle and two times 1700 from garrisons you have 6200.
You must be seriously dominating your tier if you have a fully upgraded garry and 2 full upgraded keeps all with full supply and fully upgraded camps with full supply.
Something needs to be done against zergs. I love WvW just as much as the next person, but this whole numbers game really has to go. By default if you have 30 attacking a group of 10 in a capped tower, the 30 will eventually get in, that is all there is to it.
There needs to be far more strategy involved so that:
1) The ones outnumbered actually have a fighting chance
2) The ones with sheer numbers will have to start employing different tactics and strategies.
I would like to see a single person be able to either defend or wipe out an entire zerg (if need be) which forces the zerg to use their numbers more wisely.
I am kinda hoping Anet adds additional things to WvW, which can defend or wipe out zergs either by camps/towers or out in the open field.
The arrow cart idea is a start but it really is pointless when ranged can just pick away at the door from afar
So what happens when in your tier no one is outnumbered and you have pretty even numbers. It is now impossible for anyone to take a tower/keep.
I think the very small minority is outnumbered in WvW all the time.
Your post tells me you have no idea what you are doing in WvW. “Ranged can pick of the door anyway”. Hmmmm, how could we solve that problem. Raises Hand I know, build a ballista.
You can go in and out of the portal killing attackers and come back inside to safety and heal. There are plenty of smart placements for siege where you have an advantage (cliffside has awesome spots for example). You can buff up and use all your skills while the people down there are on rams or attacking the gate and have some stuff on cooldown. You can portalbomb and bait them. You can let them in and kill them in the choke and then repair the gate.
I’ll grant you this though. In an idiotzerg vs idiotzerg situation the attackers have the advantage. But should a game cater to idiottactics?
You can go in and out of the portal killing attackers and come back inside to safety and heal. Assuming I don’t die the moment I poke my nose out (because of the 30 people standing right there who want to kill me), yes, I can do that. Doesn’t help my keep as attackers will still be taking down the door at range, and that player I killed will be insta-rezzed by his zerg. I had zero effect on the outcome and the keep will still fall.
There are plenty of smart placements for siege where you have an advantage (cliffside has awesome spots for example).Cliffside is well loved for this very reason. It’s easy to defend. It’s also the exception that proves the rule. There are 2 keeps, a garrison, and 3 other towers where standing on the walls is pretty much a death trap.
You can buff up and use all your skills while the people down there are on rams or attacking the gate and have some stuff on cooldown.It is impossible to attack anyone from the walls unless you stand on the very edge. Unfortunately, that means they can hit you, too (and use Scorpion Wire, Spectral Grasp, that wrench #5 that I love, or the Mesmer pull to drag you down and filet you). Where is the advantage to the defenders here? And what about the 15 friends behind the ram operators, all shooting at the same gate with pistols, bows, rifles, scepters and staves? Will they continue to attack the gate while I go out and butcher those manning the rams?
*You can portalbomb and bait them. * How is that an advantage for the defenders again?
You can let them in and kill them in the choke and then repair the gate. How is that an advantage for the defenders again? You’ve been breached. Your defense failed. Baiting a zerg and then killing it can be done at supply camps, open field, keeps, towers…it’s not specific to a siege defense scenario.
Here’s the bottom line; in a siege, 5 people in a fully fortified keep with ample siege weaponry and supplies SHOULD have a better than 50-50 chance of holding off 15 or 20 people. Siege weaponry is what’s known as a force multiplier; five average people with pocket knives versus 15 people with machetes are in deep trouble. Put those same 5 average people behind a concrete wall and give them each a gattling gun (ac) and those 15 people with machetes SHOULD melt and die. That’s how it’s supposed to be.
The problem is 5 will have a 100% chance to hold off 20+. This should not be the case.
They need to make T3 harder to attain then. Right now I can get T3 on a keep on Friday night before I log off.
I saw defended t3 keeps in t1 europe fall in less than a minute before due to golem rushes. Its not uncommon to have rushes with 20-60 golems on my server.
Where do you get 6000 supply??
Edit: Even 20 would take all day to set up and would be a gimmick.
So the smart guys build a cata outside of ac range. They build a ballista and destroy the cata. The attackers build a treb, lol, the defenders build a counter treb, being that it takes far less hits to take down the treb with the counter treb than it does for the attacking treb to take down a wall (we are no longer able to block treb shots) the defenders win again. How again is anyone in a high tier going to take a tower/keep lol.
You don’t need to take down the walls, just the enemy ACs, THEN you plop down your rams.
And yes, they could rebuild more. That’s why supply-starving the enemy becomes (more) critical.
In other words, you can’t go and facerub down a structure anymore. You need to plan how you’re going to take it, using things like detaching a doliak sniping team to stop them from receiving more supplies while keeping YOUR supply flow intact so you can win the siege weapons’ arms race. This means you now need at least 3 separate fighting groups instead of the mono zerg. How is this a bad thing?
Magus, you are in T1 and can facerub a keep LOL.
We already have to starve supply. You know how to counter that. Go to your home BL Garrison that has 2k supply and WP back, there is no more contested WP’s apparently. T3 keep sieges already took hours lol. Now days maybe??? I guess it remains to be seen.
What really irks me is thay made a change like this ion the middle of the week when one of the other servers in our tier owns everything on all BL’s and is ticking over 550. Now it will be impossible for us to take anything back tonight.
Edit: Or a counter treb. Defense has always had the advantage for good players.
We already have hour+ long battles for keeps that end in a stalemate and defenders win. This will just make it impossible for anyone to get past inner wals.
Cheers. Now try playing in a tier where 6 arrowcarts on a gate or wall are the norm, instead of 1 lone defender.
I play in T1 EU against Vizunah. Trust me, I know everything about getting caught in a massive AC crossfire.
I stand my case, this buff is good. And it is good EXPLICITLY for the reason you state: 3 men on superior ACs can now stop a 50 man zerg dead in their tracks, IF the 50 man zerg is dumb. Of course, it just takes one smart guy in the zerg to go outside of AC range and build a catapult.
One of the biggest reason of WvW devolving into “zerg wars 2” is the efficiency of running around the map in a single huge zerg steamrolling everything and easily capping the whole map. This is due to lots of reasons, like the small size of the maps compared to the number of players, the increased amount of supplies you can carry around with more people etc. etc.
Stopping the monozerg from being so efficient is of paramount importance to let the game evolve from its current sad state.
Also, it’s not like ACs are an unbeatable tactic now. Just cata/treb them from outside their range, problem solved. Yeah, it takes more time. That’s the whole point. You cannot just join the zerg karma train and waltz in towers/keeps anymore. You need to think about how you’re going to take it. Setting up trebbing positions also means having to defend them from an enemy blitz, etc. It makes the game more tactical instead of this stupid benny-hill-like zerg perma-run-around we’ve been seeing so far.
Just give it at least a couple of weeks to let the meta evolve before crying doom.
So the smart guys build a cata outside of ac range. They build a ballista and destroy the cata. The attackers build a treb, lol, the defenders build a counter treb, being that it takes far less hits to take down the treb with the counter treb than it does for the attacking treb to take down a wall (we are no longer able to block treb shots) the defenders win again. How again is anyone in a high tier going to take a tower/keep lol.
I don’t know about you but my guild with 10 people could hold off a zerg of 50 for hours at inner/the lords room. With the AC changes no one will ever take a keep from us again.
So those trebs you can no longer block, they won’t be making it difficult for the ten of you that just watched your arrow carts get destroyed?
We will go take out the treb, sigh. What do you guys do just stand there and watch them treb you??? We usually have a wp in every keep we own Friday night. We will never lose a keep again.
Sorry, there may be a little confusion here. I was using your numbers. You say your ten will go out and kill the treb that those attacking 50 built, is this correct? One or two ACs by the treb may hinder your plans a bit.
Have you ever used a ballista. Lol at an open field treb. Does that work on your server?
A bunch of arrowcarts are already more then effective in stopping a zerg. All i see about the people who think ACs needed a buff is people who feel they should single-handedly be able to repel a 50man zerg. What are you people smoking?!
Half a dozen people on ACs was already a serious roadblock. And now, with the 80% dmg buff AND mastery, they count twice as hard.
Great, you anti-zergers got what you wanted. 3 ppl can defend against 50man zergs. Cheers. Now try playing in a tier where 6 arrowcarts on a gate or wall are the norm, instead of 1 lone defender.
Those 3 will be useless once intelligent people (not the stupid zerg that goes omg we can’t stand in this circle, we’re doomed!) start putting a catapult far from the arrow carts.
Its designed to kill your zerg, make things defensible against zergs.
Maybe come up with new strategies?
also arrow carts 1-2-3-4 are deathtraps for operators against people that know what they are doing. There is nothing to stop an attacking force to simply pull the operators off the walls.
Then just re-build the arrowcarts and rinse repeat with your 2k x 12 damage per second with the -33% heal that the poison gives you thus making defence far more overpowered than attack.
Speaking as someone who, since launch, has been saying that attackers had every single advantage during a siege (and they did), I welcome this change. Those of us who like fighting over an objective, who like the push-and-pull of a protracted siege over the 30 second zerg v zerg routs in open field…well, it’s our turn now.
If you think offensive side has an advantage, then you’re probably so bad you think you always had a disadvantage. With the portal you can run in and out, you have the walls to stand on. You have an huge defensive advantage, if you are actually able to kill the enemy.
Who has the advantage in a siege…
1- Defender on the wall, who can be pulled or melted by AoE, or attacker on the ground who can ignore the pitiful (old) siege weaponry of the defenders?
2- Defenders on the wall, whose arrow carts and ballistas will vanish in the first few seconds of a siege under an apocalyptic downpour of meteor storms, arrows, grenades, engineer crates, Mesmer phantasms and necro marks, or the attackers outside who can destroy EVERY PIECE OF SIEGE GEAR MEANT TO DEFEND AGAINST THEM?
3- Defenders inside the keep, who cannot repair the gate because of the insane stacked AoE damage that will instakill them if they stay there for more than 3 seconds, or the attackers who can stand there on the rams with no siege to attack them (see #2).
Seriously, the ongoing tearing out of hairs over this change…it’s a thing of beauty.
You need to L2Place Siege. This is where you fail. I can place ac’s so they cannot be hit by attackers. And it is even easier to hit ac that cannot be hit by attackers that can only hit the front of the gate.
I don’t know about you but my guild with 10 people could hold off a zerg of 50 for hours at inner/the lords room. With the AC changes no one will ever take a keep from us again.
So those trebs you can no longer block, they won’t be making it difficult for the ten of you that just watched your arrow carts get destroyed?
We will go take out the treb, sigh. What do you guys do just stand there and watch them treb you??? We usually have a wp in every keep we own Friday night. We will never lose a keep again.
This seems like a real challenge, so I shall tell you guys how to not die to the arrow carts even after the buff
Seem like a real challenge: the gate is right in the middle of that circles.
Which means no ram.
Use a cata! Oh wait, i can’t protect those anymore from defenders trebbing them due to Swirling Winds changes and such.
Only way to do is get bet to my tower/keep, make my own treb and play treb wars.
Great…
Ps: if you’ve missed it, the problem is not giving a dmg boost, poison or extended range to ACs.
It’s the magnitude of the dmg boost. Any other perk doesn’t offer more than 5-10% dmg boost.
Siege bunker offers, for 75 pts, 5 (FIVE) % dmg reduction.
And with 15 pts you place a 80 kitten EIGHTY) % dmg boost?
Seriously.
Add in the ability to have 12 + of them on same gate….
I don’t think this is a perk, this is a passive increase to all AC damage.
I don’t know about you but my guild with 10 people could hold off a zerg of 50 for hours at inner/the lords room. With the AC changes no one will ever take a keep from us again.
Seriously it’s not hard just don’t stand in the red circles and you’ll be fine
Exactly!
yeah don’t stand in the red circles when there is 10 ACs firing and there is circles everywhere … Do you even play WvW?
I play every single day, and I know that if there’s circle everywhere, I go from 1 LOL dmg circle to the next. Makes me happy knowing that. And unless a person is ramming, they won’t expect arrow circle stacks. So people should be smart to take out the arrow carts, or find another way to break the keep instead of standing in a lot of circles wanting to eat all the arrows until the gate is down. And all you know is call people expletives and obscenities.
Lol, the lower tiers are so terrible at WvW they can’t even see what the problem will be.
I don’t care how many people you throw at it, no one in T1/T2/T3 will ever take a keep once it is capped. Get a WP as fast as possible which is usually early Friday night and voila! You will never have to watch a keep again, just build AC’s until capped and as soon as you see swords have like 10 ppl WP back and defend against 80 for hours.
