Guild Wars 2

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Index: ( page’s means OP / reserved posts before any commentary posts )

Page one – fire

Page 2 – air

Page 3 – arcana

Page 4 – water

Page 5 – earth

Page 6 – conjure weapons

Page 7 -12 – reserved

if you wish to discuss these changes they will have their own discussion pages.

Links –
fire and air discussion – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Fire-Air-balance-discussion/page/2#post5129690

Earth and water discussion – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Water-and-earth-discussion/first#post5129809

Conjure weapons discussion – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Conjure-weapons-Discussion/first#post5129818

2thousand views, is one of them an anet employee???? If anyone at anet has read this please answer me.

Cecilia.5179:

I like the idea removing attunement cooldowns and instead putting icd on attunement swap traits. This seems totally fair to me.

This comes from a quaggan hater so it’s automatically wrong!!!!

Daniel Handler.4816:

K comments.

They mention ferocity and a % increased in damage probably because the trait gives you enough ferocity for a 4% increase in crit damage. So each stack gives you 60 ferocity. Which also means it gives your phantasms 60 ferocity. This is a buff over the old trait.

Second lets take a look at what spamming mantra of pain produces.
qs stands for a quickened second.

0s,1 stack,
1s, 2stacks,
2s, 3stacks,
3s, 3 stacks, cooldown

5.75s, 4stacks, or 4.375qs, 4stacks
6.75s, 5stacks, or 5.375s, 5 stacks
7.75s, 5stacks, or 6.375s, 5 stacks
8.75s, 4 stacks, or 7.375s, 5 stacks, cooldown

11.5s, 3stacks, or 8.75qs, 5 stacks
12.5s, 4 stacks, or 9.75s, 5 stacks
13.5s, 5 stacks, or 10.75s 5 stacks
14.5s 4 stacks, or 11.75s, 5 stacks, cooldown

17.25s, 3stacks, or 13.125qs, 5 stacks
18.25s, 4 stacks, or 14.125s, 5 stacks
19.25, 5 stacks, or 15.125, 5 stacks
20.25, 4stacks, or 16.125, 5 stacks cooldown

You have three second cast windows for whatever stuff you want to do. And with quickness you can easily maintain a perma 20% boost to your crit damage. Which means a 20% boost to your phantasms crit damage as well.

Really don’t want to do the math for what this looks like under alacrity.

Regardless, unless my math is wrong, this looks like a pretty good trait.

The problem is that this trait is not skill and encourages the exact opposite of skill, spamming.

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

The abysmally low is mathematically proven…. and how is 10% crit chance worse than an absolutely useless 10% movement speed increase? Can you pls explain how a buff overridden by any other movement buff in the game is useful ( and you are telling me to learn the traits lel) ? Also you said the fire version of the same critchance bonus is bad and this is too strong, kind of hypocritical.

Okay, where is your math then? I want to see how it was proven abysmally low.
That’s my bad, forgot you wanted it as a major trait. Doesn’t change the fact 10% crit chance in air is not really much useful anyway. And yeah, I actually know the traits unlike you.

Please prove I don’t know the traits… oh wait you can’t. And I can explain via math but you still never answered why you want a horrific trait to be kept over a rather low damage modifier. Edit … Math provided in earlier comment. A 5% damage modifier might be too high for a minor but seeing as it only works in one of 4 attunements I doubt it.

The only thing you said is that BtTH is abysmally low, you never explained why close to 7% damage modifier is bad for a ADEPT trait. It also works in fire, which has the highest burst skills.

And your 10% crit chance would be 5% damage increase only if you spend at least half of the time in air, which realistically will be 3-5% damage modifier. Never said Zephyr’s speed is better (you were the one clamining it’s much better than BtTH, because Phanta uses it), I just said I would prefer something else than crit chance in air.

Your math is wrong here, if 100%of your damage comes from air it’s 5% therefore it is abismally low through the lenses of mathematics.

What? If 100% of your damage came from air, it would be 10% dmg modifier. Seeing as fresh air spends and therefore does damage in other attunements, I estimated reastically it could be around 3-5% of damage increase. Also, you were the one who suggested this trait.

A 10% chance to gain a critical damage bonus ( assuming your crit damage is at 200%) is actually a 5% gain.

And I know I suggested it, you and dadnir both appear to believe it is too strong or a bad choice.

Sigh. Without 10% crit
Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 + Critical Chance * ( Critical Damage – 1 ) )
AD = BD * (1 + 0,50 * (2-1))
AD = BD * 1,50 > Average damage output higher 50% higher than base.
With 10% higher crit chance
AD = BD * (1 + 0,60 * (2-1))
AD = BD * 1.,60 > Average damage output 60% higher than base.

60-50 = 10 > 10% damage increase

(Data from 26006 fresh air build)

No, I said I don’t like the trait and would rather if they came up with something else.

Ok I will change this for you. May my suggestion appease your endless posting.

Edit: you have any suggestions for a balanced and theme fitting trait ?

Edit 2: also your comparing the gain from base not from 1.5

I believe your math should be .1/1.5 = 1/15

1 = x
15=100
X = 6.666

If roughly 50% of your damage occurs in air this is a 3.333% damage gain relative to not having this trait.
Therefore it’s basically the same as btth and my comment on OwA being considered better by phantaram is still relevant for the concerns of dadnir.
This is how damage mods are compared btw, they are not comparative to the base but your avg damage w/o that damage modifier.

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

I wouldn’t actually mind having no CD (in practice 1 sec) on attunements even during a fight, it’s not really different from kits as long as there is ICD on all attunement swap procs.

This would be a horrific idea in terms of balance, it makes it harder to predict when you use the swap traits, removes freshair entirely ( this is currently the only non tank spec that is remotely viable on an ele ), and gives elementalists availability to any of their extremely powerful abilities at any time ( providing they aren’t on cd). It also removes all the flavor of playing an elementalist over other classes like engineer. As a mid – higher tier spvp player I strongly recommend that your idea is not added.

@OP mabye if you added a phrase to elemental attunement like when in combat.. but that would weaken elementalists out of combat mobility and adding a cd weakens freshair specs access to swiftness which is important to a glass light armor build with few escape utlities.

Ele is balanced around having long cooldowns unlike engi, yet they have almost as much skills as ele. I don’t see it as an issue elementalist would have an access to a 50 second cooldown at any given time assuing it’s off cd. Being less predictable and based on roations would actually be good for ele and it would also improve the gameplay as you wouldn’t be able to spam attunements on cooldown, but rather keep track of them. It wouldn’t remove fresh air, it would just take a bit more thinking to play the spec, it would probably also allow a better counterplay to the spec. They would have to add a icon or something to let you know when your fresh air is offcooldown, making it be less ‘’instant kitten’’. Seeing as ele has issues with survability, allowing them to manage cooldowns better would be one way how to help this and not force everyone into the same trait lines.

Fresh air is the trait that recharges air attunement on hit. And elementalists abilities are balanced far differently from engineer abilities. This is why and elementalist has a fairly even time in a 1v1 against and engi.

Yes, which revolves around damage from attuning to air, they could simply put some ICD on it and you could still play it. For the record, I never said I think they would ever decide to go this way. Just that I think it could help open a diversity of builds for ele and it wouldn’t impossible to balance.

And this game is not balanced around 1v1’s.

Yes and ele also has more team support than engi, how fair.

How could you have more support when you actually trait for damage? Ele goes full in support lines.

Engi doesn’t have competitively viable support because other classes do it better. when your support build is also strong enough that it can win most 1v1s and is still considered a support build? Seems more like a support and 1v1 spec with the only drawback being how fast you can kill foes, not your 1v1 capabilities to get powerful team support its not really specifying into pure support is it? It’s specifying into self sustainability. I have already given my suggestions on how to deal with the boon circus meta.

PlatinumMember.5274:

Sadrien.3470:

dietzero.3514:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Cecilia.5179:

I think that if there is any catch involved with this change, it will be the frequently mentioned “Make it apply to self only” nerf, but I actually believe that there will be no change, as the main reason to run Arcana has always been to pick up the 2 EA’s and Renewing Stamina.

I think the worst option would be to put selfish EA as a minor trait and a major GM trait would make it aoe. Then, elementalist would be still forced into Arcana and still lose the support it needs if it wants to compete with shoutbow. It would make a sense, they need to come up with a new trait for a GM slot. And we would still be stuck with useless master traits.

Don’t worry people!!! Lyssa’s avatar on earth ( Robert gee our Lord and savior cough cough) won’t let anything that bad happen to any class! A nerf to the duration might happen but I’m sure Robert won’t allow anyone to mess up his balance ideas by nerfing anyone too hard. If anything the best way to nerf tank eles and the cele meta is to add more boon rip to the game which, by making necromancer more viable would occur.

Karlmir is in charge of eles.

You obviously didn’t get that I’m saying Robert will talk sense into karl because Robert is the Lord and savior of game balance and this nerf would make him have to rework his entire conceptual class dynamics system.

#iwanttobelieveinrobert

#robertwillfixit

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

The abysmally low is mathematically proven…. and how is 10% crit chance worse than an absolutely useless 10% movement speed increase? Can you pls explain how a buff overridden by any other movement buff in the game is useful ( and you are telling me to learn the traits lel) ? Also you said the fire version of the same critchance bonus is bad and this is too strong, kind of hypocritical.

Okay, where is your math then? I want to see how it was proven abysmally low.
That’s my bad, forgot you wanted it as a major trait. Doesn’t change the fact 10% crit chance in air is not really much useful anyway. And yeah, I actually know the traits unlike you.

Please prove I don’t know the traits… oh wait you can’t. And I can explain via math but you still never answered why you want a horrific trait to be kept over a rather low damage modifier. Edit … Math provided in earlier comment. A 5% damage modifier might be too high for a minor but seeing as it only works in one of 4 attunements I doubt it.

The only thing you said is that BtTH is abysmally low, you never explained why close to 7% damage modifier is bad for a ADEPT trait. It also works in fire, which has the highest burst skills.

And your 10% crit chance would be 5% damage increase only if you spend at least half of the time in air, which realistically will be 3-5% damage modifier. Never said Zephyr’s speed is better (you were the one clamining it’s much better than BtTH, because Phanta uses it), I just said I would prefer something else than crit chance in air.

Your math is wrong here, if 100%of your damage comes from air it’s 5% therefore it is abismally low through the lenses of mathematics.

What? If 100% of your damage came from air, it would be 10% dmg modifier. Seeing as fresh air spends and therefore does damage in other attunements, I estimated reastically it could be around 3-5% of damage increase. Also, you were the one who suggested this trait.

A 10% chance to gain a critical damage bonus ( assuming your crit damage is at 200%) is actually a 5% gain.

And I know I suggested it, you and dadnir both appear to believe it is too strong or a bad choice.

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

The abysmally low is mathematically proven…. and how is 10% crit chance worse than an absolutely useless 10% movement speed increase? Can you pls explain how a buff overridden by any other movement buff in the game is useful ( and you are telling me to learn the traits lel) ? Also you said the fire version of the same critchance bonus is bad and this is too strong, kind of hypocritical.

Okay, where is your math then? I want to see how it was proven abysmally low.
That’s my bad, forgot you wanted it as a major trait. Doesn’t change the fact 10% crit chance in air is not really much useful anyway. And yeah, I actually know the traits unlike you.

Please prove I don’t know the traits… oh wait you can’t. And I can explain via math but you still never answered why you want a horrific trait to be kept over a rather low damage modifier. Edit … Math provided in earlier comment. A 5% damage modifier might be too high for a minor but seeing as it only works in one of 4 attunements I doubt it.

The only thing you said is that BtTH is abysmally low, you never explained why close to 7% damage modifier is bad for a ADEPT trait. It also works in fire, which has the highest burst skills.

And your 10% crit chance would be 5% damage increase only if you spend at least half of the time in air, which realistically will be 3-5% damage modifier. Never said Zephyr’s speed is better (you were the one clamining it’s much better than BtTH, because Phanta uses it), I just said I would prefer something else than crit chance in air.

Edits: I think you meant OwA and my trait granting 10% crit chance while in air because my only comment for bolt to the heart was that it was too low for a GM.

Wtf seriously. I said several times I was talking about BTTH and now you’re saying you talked about your proposed trait to be abyssmally low? And I’ve stated million comments back that they’re changing the numbers of BTTH.

You were the one saying that Phanta uses One with air(You said Zephyr’s speed but ye) instead of the trait, so the only logical trait you could be talking about is BTTH.

This was in comparison damage between 10% crit chance and btth to compare wether or not OwA was a stronger minor trait than 10% crit chance.

BlackBeard.2873:

Gokil.2543:

The reason aquatic benevolence functions the way it does, is because it allows them to crank up the numbers a lot higher this way. If it affected yourself too, even 10% would be in the ballpark of OP. So their only way of making support through healing feel substantial is by making it only affect allies.

This also adds the classic ‘focus the healer’ element, which is, if nothing else, a bit of added depth. If it boosted healing universally, your healer would be the hardest to kill of the whole bunch, which makes for an awkward situation.

Being a dedicated healer in this game doesn’t work. When you are able to do the most work as a “healer” it is because you provide a water field that you/others blast. There is a reason aquatic benevolence is never taken even in wvw, and its not b/c the condi cleanse is 100% critical. It is because the trait is just bad.

To address the point you raise, there are plenty “useless” traits that are entirely group focused. Think of tactics revive traits, venomshare, phalanx strength,…

Venom-share now actually reduces venom CD’s by 20%, so it has a selfish benefit as well. I addressed that revive traits are dog-crap across the board (except thief’s b/c it also impacts steal). Also, phalanx strength is on a class that has no shortage of base defense, and provides offensive support (which makes it good for PvE). Honest, powerful aura is not strong enough, even if it shares every aura, to be at the GM slot and compete with cleansing water. At the very least, it should reduce the CD on “Aura” skills by -20%.

This is a good idea, aura skills do not have enough on demand effects right now and the reduced cooldowns will help with that.

Provost.6210:

Sadrien.3470:

chain lightning would be extremely op with a cast time of 1/4s and I gathered that you wanted to make staff ele balanced in 1v1s ???

Chain lightning is the most underwhelming auto attack skill in the game. I am suggesting how to make it work as it seems its supposed to. Thematically and mechanically it suffers from the fundamental issue that lightning is not a slow moving projectile. If the damage needs to be reduced slightly in order to make it balanced, that’s fine. But the mechanics of the skill are kitten right now.

Sadrien.3470:

static field is perfect as is and does not need buffed in any way

It’s a #5 skill that’s a glorified doorstop. There’s nothing perfect about it.

Sadrien.3470:

your lightning surge is completely insane and makes no sense …. that would be a free kill 1v1.

I highly doubt it. With the number of escapes/invulnerables/oh kitten buttons that other classes have, I would say that this would make staff ele more competitive in 1v1. Especially because lightning surge is so telegraphed that it’s easy to dodge. This turns it into a dangerous skill that will actually count for something if it hits, as opposed to having spent time charging the ability that would have been better spent dealing more damage with the kittenty autoattack.

Sadrien.3470:

The projectile component makes gust really useful in zergs but for your purposes your version is better. I think there needs to be a way to not teleport in order for this skill to be useful.

Teleporting is the whole point. Staff needs to have manoeuvrability, like a mesmer staff or a warrior greatsword. Every time a class has a two-handed weapon they have the ability to move around the battlefield or — with the heavily armoured guardian or highest hp necromancer — become essentially immovable. Elementalist has the weakest armour and lowest health, it needs the ability to move around the battlefield.

Sadrien.3470:

Basically 50% of your changes would make ele godmode…. you would see staff eles winning 1v1s against weapons actually designed for 1v1 90% of the time. The only parts I really see value in are the fixes to the projectiles and maybe the condi damage frost field.

Other classes can switch weapons. Elementalist can’t. The staff has to have 1v1 applicability as well as team fight options. I wouldn’t call that “godmode”, I’d call it “balance”.

You know how many builds can afford to dodge once every 5s just to avoid a guaranteed 5s blind…only s/d thieves. And even then this leaves them vulnerable to other dangerous attacks. As it is cele s staff builds are fairly strong in 1v1 scenarios and though harder to play than cele dd a good staff ele can completely shutdown a d/p thief or other melee builds. An auto attack that hits like it does now on lightning with one 3rd the cast time is extremely unbalanced especially when it gets to fight 2 opponents who are near each other ( just increase the projectile speed ). And really that is an extreme overstatement because mesmer gs auto hits for much less, A Zerker necromancer scepter auto hits for much less, and I can keep naming lower dps autos if you would like ( every auto on ele scepter for example ). Being forced into teleporting into melee range on a staff is a horrible design option, your 100% bound to die using this skill in anything larger than a 3v3. This is why I said there needs to be a way to use it without having to teleport.
Static field when combo with other skills can trap your foe in lava font, or be combined with teleport + gust for 2 lightning rod procs and is a great skill in every game mode outside of pve.

Also by that logic scepter should be a viable support + AoE cleave weapon, dagger should be able to play ranged dps etc… do you not see the flaws.

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

I wouldn’t actually mind having no CD (in practice 1 sec) on attunements even during a fight, it’s not really different from kits as long as there is ICD on all attunement swap procs.

This would be a horrific idea in terms of balance, it makes it harder to predict when you use the swap traits, removes freshair entirely ( this is currently the only non tank spec that is remotely viable on an ele ), and gives elementalists availability to any of their extremely powerful abilities at any time ( providing they aren’t on cd). It also removes all the flavor of playing an elementalist over other classes like engineer. As a mid – higher tier spvp player I strongly recommend that your idea is not added.

@OP mabye if you added a phrase to elemental attunement like when in combat.. but that would weaken elementalists out of combat mobility and adding a cd weakens freshair specs access to swiftness which is important to a glass light armor build with few escape utlities.

Ele is balanced around having long cooldowns unlike engi, yet they have almost as much skills as ele. I don’t see it as an issue elementalist would have an access to a 50 second cooldown at any given time assuing it’s off cd. Being less predictable and based on roations would actually be good for ele and it would also improve the gameplay as you wouldn’t be able to spam attunements on cooldown, but rather keep track of them. It wouldn’t remove fresh air, it would just take a bit more thinking to play the spec, it would probably also allow a better counterplay to the spec. They would have to add a icon or something to let you know when your fresh air is offcooldown, making it be less ‘’instant kitten’’. Seeing as ele has issues with survability, allowing them to manage cooldowns better would be one way how to help this and not force everyone into the same trait lines.

Fresh air is the trait that recharges air attunement on hit. And elementalists abilities are balanced far differently from engineer abilities. This is why and elementalist has a fairly even time in a 1v1 against and engi.

Yes, which revolves around damage from attuning to air, they could simply put some ICD on it and you could still play it. For the record, I never said I think they would ever decide to go this way. Just that I think it could help open a diversity of builds for ele and it wouldn’t impossible to balance.

And this game is not balanced around 1v1’s.

Yes and ele also has more team support than engi, how fair.

Alekt.5803:

Power X Base damage X Multiplier / Armor X (0,6666 protection)

1540 X 680 X 2 / 3226

Ok looks sound, I must just be too tired but this is only hit from a rather low damage skill w/o crits, not completely decisive by any means.

Alekt.5803:

Hp is exactly 11905. Base armor is 3226; 3526 buff.

Without crits, and with exactly 1540 power (Cele Hoelbrak), Drake’s breath deals a total of 649,22 for the full cast. (This is without protection or the 3346 armor from Earth Minor. It does not consider the might of either parties.)

Without crits against full buffed, it deals exactly 395,99 damage for the full cast. Which is far from the 1190 damage it needs to deal.

Again, this is without considering might stacks, or my healing per seconds. Each casts grant me 277 health.

Sigil of Doom will be immediately mitigated because it will land on the first hit of the breath. It will show a “Immune”.

Even with 25 stack of might, the damage remains 614,32 (3346 armor + Protection) without crits.

Exactly what formula are you using for your calculations, the mitigation w/o protection looks extremely high.

Edit : Tomorrow, would you like to have some test in game, practical application and mathematical theorem can differ for many reasons.

<3 stealing towers from nub enemies !!! Suddenly 15 people appear inside of SM:D
Teaches those mean zergs to bully me 1v20 :P

Alekt.5803:

Sadrien.3470:

Alekt.5803:

The point is not to counter Pure Condition builds. Though, it does that very well at the same time. Actually, Diamond Skin acts as an insurance against high condition builds, and works around the low condi clear of the build. Otherwise, high condition builds would counter Settler.

Demonstration might be the hard part. I don’t have the material for a video. But, my MMR is high, and I am ready for a friendly duel anytime.

Define high? You have a win ratio of 70% or something? If so it’s one of the many problems with the current matching systems.

High enough to play with and against big names. You keep Editing your post. It becomes hard; also, I understand that I will not be able to argue with anything since the build itself is so alien to mainly anyone. You’re discussing against unknown concepts, thinking DS gets broken in one tick of fire.

As you can see from my Signature I also play with and against big names.

Alekt.5803:

Tell me, have you even checked the Earth Shield Auto-Attacks?

Yes. That is very weak condi application compared scepter earth auto and is limited to melee.

Alekt.5803:

Sadrien.3470:

Alekt.5803:

The point is not to counter Pure Condition builds. Though, it does that very well at the same time. Actually, Diamond Skin acts as an insurance against high condition builds, and works around the low condi clear of the build. Otherwise, high condition builds would counter Settler.

Demonstration might be the hard part. I don’t have the material for a video. But, my MMR is high, and I am ready for a friendly duel anytime.

Define high? You have a win ratio of 70% or something? If so it’s one of the many problems with the current matching systems.

High enough to play with and against big names. You keep Editing your post. It becomes hard; also, I understand that I will not be able to argue with anything since the build itself is so alien to mainly anyone. You’re discussing against unknown concepts, thinking DS gets broken in one tick of fire.

Assuming your hp is roughly 12k and armor 3k the damage from a dragons breath tick is going to be roughly 400 damage if you are lacking protection. So a full dragons breath which will contain at least one crit does break the diamond skin threshold. Sorry constantly editing but auto correct makes it madness to right anything and my kindle won’t let me disable it. Also sorry for the horrific wording. I meant cast of dragons breath.

dietzero.3514:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Cecilia.5179:

I think that if there is any catch involved with this change, it will be the frequently mentioned “Make it apply to self only” nerf, but I actually believe that there will be no change, as the main reason to run Arcana has always been to pick up the 2 EA’s and Renewing Stamina.

I think the worst option would be to put selfish EA as a minor trait and a major GM trait would make it aoe. Then, elementalist would be still forced into Arcana and still lose the support it needs if it wants to compete with shoutbow. It would make a sense, they need to come up with a new trait for a GM slot. And we would still be stuck with useless master traits.

Don’t worry people!!! Lyssa’s avatar on earth ( Robert gee our Lord and savior cough cough) won’t let anything that bad happen to any class! A nerf to the duration might happen but I’m sure Robert won’t allow anyone to mess up his balance ideas by nerfing anyone too hard. If anything the best way to nerf tank eles and the cele meta is to add more boon rip to the game which, by making necromancer more viable would occur.

Karlmir is in charge of eles.

You obviously didn’t get that I’m saying Robert will talk sense into karl because Robert is the Lord and savior of game balance and this nerf would make him have to rework his entire conceptual class dynamics system.

Bumping until fixed devs please read.

Phantaram.4816:

Phew, was afraid I wouldn’t get to play with my lovely Evasive Arcana. Really good change.

Hello phanta!!!

Alekt.5803:

The point is not to counter Pure Condition builds. Though, it does that very well at the same time. Actually, Diamond Skin acts as an insurance against high condition builds, and works around the low condi clear of the build. Otherwise, high condition builds would counter Settler.

Demonstration might be the hard part. I don’t have the material for a video. But, my MMR is high, and I am ready for a friendly duel anytime.

Define high? You have a win ratio of 70% or something? If so it’s one of the many problems with the current matching systems.

Alekt.5803:

Sadrien.3470:

There are lots of great s/d condi eles with strong s/d condi specs. Much stronger than your spec which can easily be outcleansed by many meta builds.

Bring those s/d Condi Eles. A shame I don’t have any videos.

If you’re talking about about Shoutbows or Cele D/D, they don’t kill the build either. Shoutbows trying to decap can also die to DS/CES.

Would you like to prove this? And I don’t mean vs pure macro essentially bot cele eles…
The way I see this is, one hit of dragons breath and your diamond skin is broken so you go back to hiding while 0 ticks of condi damage hit the cele ele. Then they updraft you instantly off point. After this the proceed to spam damaging AoEs wasting your dodges. Then they pop stability and beat you below the diamond skin threshold with lightning whip then apply high burning stacks, poison, chill and some bleeding. This continues while you desperately try and cleanse and heal to get diamond skin up.
Sorry you just don’t have enough damage to beat a good cele ele.

Alekt.5803:

Sadrien.3470:

There are lots of great s/d condi eles with strong s/d condi specs. Much stronger than your spec which can easily be outcleansed by many meta builds.

Bring those s/d Condi Eles.
A shame I don’t have any videos.

Btw you spec as listed on metabattle is the direct counter to pure condition builds. It is countered by cele meta specs. This makes it a bad choice in the current meta. Most S/F eles would be full condition but those running cele might have a chance against you. I would love for you to demonstrate this builds viability because it is a cool concept but I just don’t see it working. There are other builds running s/d that are condi oriented like 60602 diamond skin builds. Not everything condi is limited to signets.

Alekt.5803:

Sadrien.3470:

There are lots of great s/d condi eles with strong s/d condi specs. Much stronger than your spec which can easily be outcleansed by many meta builds.

Bring those s/d Condi Eles.
A shame I don’t have any videos.

Edit I said S/F auto correct is evil.

Alekt.5803:

I’ve decided to write down the complete Diamond Skin / Conjure Earth Shield Condition Staff Elementalist. http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_DS/CES_Condition_Staff

First things first, when played correctly, this build will vanquish any other versions of Elementalists Condition Builds. Looking at the Quad Signets builds and their variation. It brings an important load of AoE support and Crowd Control as well as applying a worrying amount of conditions, unlike the Quad Signets. DS/CES is also very strong in duels.

To make it work, it is necessary to;
1. Know how to use the Staff.
2. A proper use of the Condition combos with Eruption.
3. Master the Diamond Skin Trait
4. Master the Earth Shield
5. Learn how to use Glyph of Elemental Power.

Pros:
-Immune to full condition build.
-Hard to kill.
-1200 range cleaving conditions.
-Good damage
-Good team support (Ton of CC, Healing and Zone Denial)
-Counters Thieves.

Cons:
-Mediocre condition clear (mitigated by Diamond Skin)
-Vulnerable to Crowd Controls

So, if you’re interested to play with a hard-to-use but rewarding build that brings a total of eight hard CC to the table whose 7 of them are AoE, try it out. Try it out slowly, and on practice mobs first!

Sorry for talking against S/F Condition Builds, but they will simply feel lacking.

There are lots of great s/f condi eles with strong s/f condi specs. Much stronger than your spec which can easily be outcleansed by many meta builds. The problem is you have low condition damage, unpredictable ranged application and weak melee condition application, therefore anyone who can kite and cleanse puts you at a ridiculous disadvantage and any hybrid build like the above mention meta build ( cele rifle) do this very well. You might be able to bunker far but outside of pvp this build has no place and even there it has glaring weaknesses.

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

The abysmally low is mathematically proven…. and how is 10% crit chance worse than an absolutely useless 10% movement speed increase? Can you pls explain how a buff overridden by any other movement buff in the game is useful ( and you are telling me to learn the traits lel) ? Also you said the fire version of the same critchance bonus is bad and this is too strong, kind of hypocritical.

Okay, where is your math then? I want to see how it was proven abysmally low.
That’s my bad, forgot you wanted it as a major trait. Doesn’t change the fact 10% crit chance in air is not really much useful anyway. And yeah, I actually know the traits unlike you.

Please prove I don’t know the traits… oh wait you can’t. And I can explain via math but you still never answered why you want a horrific trait to be kept over a rather low damage modifier. Edit … Math provided in earlier comment. A 5% damage modifier might be too high for a minor but seeing as it only works in one of 4 attunements I doubt it.

The only thing you said is that BtTH is abysmally low, you never explained why close to 7% damage modifier is bad for a ADEPT trait. It also works in fire, which has the highest burst skills.

And your 10% crit chance would be 5% damage increase only if you spend at least half of the time in air, which realistically will be 3-5% damage modifier. Never said Zephyr’s speed is better (you were the one clamining it’s much better than BtTH, because Phanta uses it), I just said I would prefer something else than crit chance in air.

Edits: I think you meant OwA and my trait granting 10% crit chance while in air because my only comment for bolt to the heart was that it was too low for a GM.

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

The abysmally low is mathematically proven…. and how is 10% crit chance worse than an absolutely useless 10% movement speed increase? Can you pls explain how a buff overridden by any other movement buff in the game is useful ( and you are telling me to learn the traits lel) ? Also you said the fire version of the same critchance bonus is bad and this is too strong, kind of hypocritical.

Okay, where is your math then? I want to see how it was proven abysmally low.
That’s my bad, forgot you wanted it as a major trait. Doesn’t change the fact 10% crit chance in air is not really much useful anyway. And yeah, I actually know the traits unlike you.

Please prove I don’t know the traits… oh wait you can’t. And I can explain via math but you still never answered why you want a horrific trait to be kept over a rather low damage modifier. Edit … Math provided in earlier comment. A 5% damage modifier might be too high for a minor but seeing as it only works in one of 4 attunements I doubt it.

The only thing you said is that BtTH is abysmally low, you never explained why close to 7% damage modifier is bad for a ADEPT trait. It also works in fire, which has the highest burst skills.

And your 10% crit chance would be 5% damage increase only if you spend at least half of the time in air, which realistically will be 3-5% damage modifier. Never said Zephyr’s speed is better (you were the one clamining it’s much better than BtTH, because Phanta uses it), I just said I would prefer something else than crit chance in air.

I didn’t say bolt to the heart is abismally low ( I never said that or anything similar, my comments on abismally low referred to my 10% crit Chance while in air attunement, I’d you read my posts you would know this.)… your misinterpreting everything I say. No point in having this discussion over and over again because you won’t ever realise what I actually wrote… even after I have clarified it multiple times.

Laraley.7695:

Cecilia.5179:

I think that if there is any catch involved with this change, it will be the frequently mentioned “Make it apply to self only” nerf, but I actually believe that there will be no change, as the main reason to run Arcana has always been to pick up the 2 EA’s and Renewing Stamina.

I think the worst option would be to put selfish EA as a minor trait and a major GM trait would make it aoe. Then, elementalist would be still forced into Arcana and still lose the support it needs if it wants to compete with shoutbow. It would make a sense, they need to come up with a new trait for a GM slot. And we would still be stuck with useless master traits.

Don’t worry people!!! Lyssa’s avatar on earth ( Robert gee our Lord and savior cough cough) won’t let anything that bad happen to any class! A nerf to the duration might happen but I’m sure Robert won’t allow anyone to mess up his balance ideas by nerfing anyone too hard. If anything the best way to nerf tank eles and the cele meta is to add more boon rip to the game which, by making necromancer more viable would occur.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sadrien.3470:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sadrien.3470:

Anyone else have comments on my builds? And Ross you like my new version of your spec?

Yeah it’d work. You could probably drop phant fury if running assassins ammy, and since you’d be smashing through your shatter skills with DE and reusable phants you’ll have better overall DPS.

Danger Time is up in the air for me. If it just applies to you then bin it. Mesmers dont get a lot of mileage out of their own AA’s. If it were phants, sure. Instead Improved Alacrity means you’re atleast getting 1.33s of alacrity per shatter, which means more skill use, which is more of everything. Just think Thief init skill spam system and how OP that is. More skill casts can only be a good thing for us

Good point, ill change the danger time since its supposed to be your spec, but I don’t see what you think is a better trait to take in the dueling line than phantasmal fury though. Is it duelist discipline ?

Bingo. Disclaimer: That’s not to say phant fury isnt a strong contender, and in fact you could always take it and capitalize with a zerk ammy on top of that. I’m not settled on that trait pick.

It really depends on how much you are able to interrupt your opponent and if you are actually able to take advantage because the skills are on CD and your on your set with a pistol. This trait will be really strong sometimes, and very weak others. Phantasm fury, however, is a pretty large boost to damage and will help make swordsman damage more consistent. ( you might even hit 100% crit chance. ) And therefore it could be used for more consistent wins but the other trait could make tremendous playa if the stars are so aligned that day.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

It was not anyone’s argument that swayed his change of opinion.

Sebrent.3625:

As such, I’m starting to lean towards it needing to just be baseline for that one reason … ease of balance.

That being said, if Fast Hands was made baseline, in my mind they’d need to look at the strength of on-swap sigils, Warrior on-swap traits, and Warrior weapon cooldowns. That isn’t saying that any of them need to be changed, but I think an analysis would be warranted. Agree?

I’m still unconvinced that it’s needed for any of the other reasons, but this one reason is becoming more and more convincing …

… if it hasn’t become apparent to you yet, I mull these things over in my head quite a bit and play both saids when I do. I think this is twice I’ve now given points for it being baselined :-p … both being things not mentioned before ;-)

Why do I have to argue both sides of this … gosh :-D

Sebrent.3625:

For the same reason I can now see FH being baseline, I could see Embrace the Pain being baseline … ease of balancing.

Heck, you’re likely at least doubling your adrenaline gain when you gain adrenaline when hit. How can you balance that?

Again though, it all needs an analysis because if you are going to get both baseline, some things need an extra look to ensure balance … otherwise you’ll become a friggin elementalist on the power curve and sPvP and PvE meta groups will become 2 Ele and 2 Warriors … leaving 1 slot for 7 classes to fight over :-p

… man … didn’t think I’d wind up agreeing to baselining both FH and Embrace Pain … but now that I’ve brought up talk about trying to balance without them baseline … it’s a tough thing to argue against (in my mind).

Changing sides based on additional thought? What is this sorcery? Hooray for science! I however still remain a skeptic.

I believe that though fast hands would be beneficial to keep baseline as long as warrior is balanced around it CI should not become baseline because of the insane anti condi utility it provides to class with strong resistance to condis already.

Idk about all of you but pVp I’d not where melee war shines. Gs + X builds are insanely powerful in WvW with very high defense and power damage along with crazy mobility and near condi immunity.

BlackBeard.2873:

Use food. They are getting -93% duration on chills/cripples/immobs (yes, this is really stupid). Also, 2 in earth is going to be better for you for elemental shielding over zephyr’s boon. You might even consider taking hoelbrak runes, 4 in earth for geomancer’s freedom, and run the same -40% condi duration food to also have snare immunity. In wvw, this fight gets very hard if they have immunity to soft-cc, as that elminates one of your best defenses.

You aren’t going to make them eat your burst if they are good, b/c your burst is well telegraphed. Focus on dodging his hammer wombo-combo, and try to dps-him when he is in GS. In all honesty though, this matchup favors them: they mave more control, more damage, more defense, and more mobility so they can just kite away any time they get low.

You will find a LOT of wvw builds are really OP and d/d isn’t really able to keep up in wvw b/c it doesn’t have some combo that abuses broken runes/food. The roaming warrior build has a LOT of defense to go along with being able to do ~20% of your health with autos alone, while taking no more than 15% of his health if he eats your burst burning speed.

There are some pretty broken ways you can build your df ele if you want too and if you properly burst its pretty hard to dodge (teleport) but almost all matchups in WvW favor the roaming warrior builds because they stack insane defense and high damage using toughness + vitality to power stat conversion.

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

I wouldn’t actually mind having no CD (in practice 1 sec) on attunements even during a fight, it’s not really different from kits as long as there is ICD on all attunement swap procs.

This would be a horrific idea in terms of balance, it makes it harder to predict when you use the swap traits, removes freshair entirely ( this is currently the only non tank spec that is remotely viable on an ele ), and gives elementalists availability to any of their extremely powerful abilities at any time ( providing they aren’t on cd). It also removes all the flavor of playing an elementalist over other classes like engineer. As a mid – higher tier spvp player I strongly recommend that your idea is not added.

@OP mabye if you added a phrase to elemental attunement like when in combat.. but that would weaken elementalists out of combat mobility and adding a cd weakens freshair specs access to swiftness which is important to a glass light armor build with few escape utlities.

Ele is balanced around having long cooldowns unlike engi, yet they have almost as much skills as ele. I don’t see it as an issue elementalist would have an access to a 50 second cooldown at any given time assuing it’s off cd. Being less predictable and based on roations would actually be good for ele and it would also improve the gameplay as you wouldn’t be able to spam attunements on cooldown, but rather keep track of them. It wouldn’t remove fresh air, it would just take a bit more thinking to play the spec, it would probably also allow a better counterplay to the spec. They would have to add a icon or something to let you know when your fresh air is offcooldown, making it be less ‘’instant kitten’’. Seeing as ele has issues with survability, allowing them to manage cooldowns better would be one way how to help this and not force everyone into the same trait lines.

Fresh air is the trait that recharges air attunement on hit. And elementalists abilities are balanced far differently from engineer abilities. This is why and elementalist has a fairly even time in a 1v1 against and engi.

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

The abysmally low is mathematically proven…. and how is 10% crit chance worse than an absolutely useless 10% movement speed increase? Can you pls explain how a buff overridden by any other movement buff in the game is useful ( and you are telling me to learn the traits lel) ? Also you said the fire version of the same critchance bonus is bad and this is too strong, kind of hypocritical.

Okay, where is your math then? I want to see how it was proven abysmally low.
That’s my bad, forgot you wanted it as a major trait. Doesn’t change the fact 10% crit chance in air is not really much useful anyway. And yeah, I actually know the traits unlike you.

Please prove I don’t know the traits… oh wait you can’t. And I can explain via math but you still never answered why you want a horrific trait to be kept over a rather low damage modifier. Edit … Math provided in earlier comment. A 5% damage modifier might be too high for a minor but seeing as it only works in one of 4 attunements I doubt it.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Very very confused by comments saying that phantasms are not affected.

I am under the belief that phantarams are not affected by the current system ( might be wrong), a boost in ferocity could however affect phantasm damage. Which is why I said that was not factored In.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sadrien.3470:

Anyone else have comments on my builds? And Ross you like my new version of your spec?

Yeah it’d work. You could probably drop phant fury if running assassins ammy, and since you’d be smashing through your shatter skills with DE and reusable phants you’ll have better overall DPS.

Danger Time is up in the air for me. If it just applies to you then bin it. Mesmers dont get a lot of mileage out of their own AA’s. If it were phants, sure. Instead Improved Alacrity means you’re atleast getting 1.33s of alacrity per shatter, which means more skill use, which is more of everything. Just think Thief init skill spam system and how OP that is. More skill casts can only be a good thing for us

Good point, ill change the danger time since its supposed to be your spec, but I don’t see what you think is a better trait to take in the dueling line than phantasmal fury though. Is it duelist discipline ?

Ross Biddle.2367:

You know, every time I read this thread title I just want to respond with the renaming of it

“New skill trees heavily favor shatter”

to

“New skill trees actually incorporate class mechanic”

Doesn’t it just seem so darn sensible?

And the trait for shatters summon your phantasmal is just ridiculous. Swordsman phantasm duelist shatter and the duelist and swordsman hit again…. that some pretty heavy phantasm build damage.

Anyone else have comments on my builds? And Ross you like my new version of your spec?

BlackBeard.2873:

Sadrien.3470:

phantaram is the only tourney elementalist palyer I know of that actually runs that build, denshee and other great eles run d/d or d/f for these reasons and phantaram runs builds like these over freshair for the same reasons ( atleast part of the time).

Just to clarify, Phanta never ran fresh air in an actual tournament, b/c fresh air is not tournament viable at the highest level. Zoose used to run it sometimes, but would readily admit it was better for his team to run Mes or thief.

When it comes to the proposed 10% crit chance instead of zephyr’s speed, I agree it would absolutely be an improvement. If they REALLY insist that it be movement related, take a page out of their engineer playbook (with robolegs) and have swiftness give +10% or +5% movement speed to swiftness while in air. At least then it wouldn’t be 100% worthless.

Sorry abotu not clarifying that he doesn’t actually run it in tourneys, I know he does run it when solo a lot but I don’t follow things other than the WTS so I never know if people run their alternate builds in the ToL or other community tourneys.

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

I can tell you right now you are likely to get a myriad of conflicting information on where to go. They say dragonbrand is dying because so many guilds decided to leave, en masse. It will take time for it to settle as a server. In the mean time, other guilds have left too and it’s likely a few more will. Unfortunately you are also for the past week and again this week for some strange reason facing some of the very people you shared your server with until 2 months ago, and they have been out for blood for anyone currently on DB.

If people tell you t3 is where it’s at for solo roaming or small group roaming, I’d laugh and look elsewhere tbh. Really there are few solo roamers left in many tiers, although in those below t4 it is far more likely to see them as I understand it. You could wait out your servers drop for a while (although you likely will be stuck for a few more weeks in t4) and see what happens, but unfortunately at least this week will continue to be awful.

Your best bet will probably be to look at multiple servers and contact people via their community forums to find out about specific times and general information.

Yeah unfortunately mag is the only server in t3 that has many roamers… and even our roaming community on mag is kinda shrinking but there isn’t really a solo roaming community out there and the majority of people who do roam roam in teams now because otherwise they get rofl stomped by groups of 3-10 people so that its very hard to win fights even if your better than your opponents. I recommend being on a server where you get to fight those few servers that actually have a roaming community and maybe moving there with some friends so you can roam as a group from time to time ( because solo roaming because boring after a while for most people…)

Please fix the mesmer greatwsord tooltip too accomodate the extra roughly 200 range over the other gs skills

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sadrien.3470:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Those are all great but here’s the build I’m most excited about running

http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AggBtAK0BXw~

I hate you for not taking gs with your rifle !!!! It confounds me to no end!

I’ve tried both, I prefer the sw/wh. It’ll be good to get that sword cd too lowering the 8s leap to 6.5s. The WH + rage sig allow perma swiftness, the cripple/imob/chill remove, and the vigor + weakness procs which is good for those dodges and to drop on a thief in stealth (or anything nearby really). Finally, Final Thrust is such a fun skill to sneak in their on a quick weapon swap (hydro for chill to help land). Watch at 7:50 https://youtu.be/JXtyb6Dt590?t=440 I just love that bonus damage at -50% health

Ik but the gs kiting is just too strong with a rifle… I used to run an axe sh sw/axe build :P I would eviscerate them for 12k then use a 12k final thrust in WvW. But I prefer gs rifle of sword or axe rifle.

messiah.1908:

Sadrien.3470:

messiah.1908:

Verock.8234:

Fay.2357:

JesseBensen.4817:

if you want to be “that guy” try running either 2/0/6/0/6 as hybrid shatter mesmer or 0/0/6/2/6 as full condition shatter. Both work amazingly well as a solo roaming build with scepter/torch staff, and require very little skill to play. At the end of the day though, its cheese in its ultimate form. -Priest of Lyssa

Actually, both of those builds are pretty awful. Running shatter builds without DE is a great way to get stomped by anyone competent.

Agreed, you need the extra clones.

In my experience with PvP (not WvW), the problem with condi mesmer is the burst. In a 1v1 fight, you may win. However, this can take upwards of 40-50 seconds. The condis continue to stack on, but there is nothing to close the gap. By the time you have your opponent downed, they’ll have another teammate on you for the 2v1.

The great part about power shatter is the heavy burst and disengage. You can provide that extra damage to down an opponent and move on. You can roam well. You can’t do this with a condi build.

It’s a fun build to play, but you won’t see competitive teams running it because it doesn’t have synergy with other classes (for the reasons mentioned above).

if it takes you 50 sec to down in 1v1 dont engage . like thief hardly engage engi in 1v1 rather going to help in 4v3
the same with condi the aoe pressure is huge if you know how to do it as you can do better aoe dmg than any other condi class or build.
but yes necro give fear to the table, engi gives cc with crates etc.. while mesmer bring some daze and condi pressure

I’m not even that good at thief but I kill the majority of engis within 5s…. and by looking at my bio you can see the tier of pvp I get placed in on occasion ( not normally against the WTS players but I see them enough), it could be just that im better than these engis and at tourny lvls you might have a different experience, I also run a non meta build ( this is a likely factor) but your comment is in accurate to my experience. Are you perhaps referring to the magical crate of “I win that 1v1” or just sayign that winning a 4v3 is more effective?

i am also able to down 1v1 almost every class but some of is gonna take longer. engi i never had 5 sec down , just the block they used is 3 sec so i guess your opponents were not so good. but either way the thief job is not to look for 1v1 rather decap free points and engage in outnumber for faster down and running around decap/cap points for his team

I have been informed my build is hard countering these poor engis, oh well.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Those are all great but here’s the build I’m most excited about running

http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AggBtAK0BXw~

I hate you for not taking gs with your rifle !!!! It confounds me to no end!

denis.9487:

All I get is ele trait tree.

This is a problem on your side try and reload the page.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Can you explain how your condi phantasm one works? I think you used the wrong traits? Recheck the link you gave, I don’t think it is the one you intended to use.

edit: you gave the link for your double ranged shatter build three times.

No!!! My stupid computer didn’t save when if fixed that… I thought I could get away without anyone noticing by correcting it quickly…. well I will fix it now.

Officially fixed links.. some traits might be off though I hurried for you Daniel!!!