Guild Wars 2

onevsone.2098:

The combination of Vampirism Rune + Improvisation is a little too much imho, basically a thief can do many mistakes and be carried by RNG + invulnerability and reset the fight, until he can do a good spike, mostly depending on sigils proc.

Play a thief for a week and see just how many mistakes you can make before you’re toast.

ResJudicator.7916:

Shadow.1345:

ResJudicator.7916:

Shadow.1345:

… trying to SS and hit the backstab before the bullet connects but that is not very feasible at that range before the stealth wears off. So you basically made me realize that interrupts/dodges are also a counterplay to stealth as well so I take back the idea about ending stealth on an evaded attack because channeled attacks that last longer than the evade time still continue to do damage.

Just fyi, you don’t have to connect w/ SS before backstab wears off. The idea is you cast SS and immediately start the backstab animation while still in stealth. The animation will continue even after stealth wears off, which let’s you connect w/ the backstab.

Also, I’m not sure how you reached your conclusion with your tests. It’s not hard to get at least 2 backstab attempts off while in stealth. (Obviously you don’t do this vs every build, because some builds, i.e. engies, will nuke the ground where you were after dodging the first backstab).

No one is seriously saying that stealth has 0 counterplay (except maybe the crazies). But stealth attacks have much less counterplay than non-stealth attacks. Every “counter” you and others have described for stealth attacks applies to other attacks, except that the counters are much weaker vs stealth attacks for the many reasons I’ve previously listed.

I meant the BS + SS at that range wasn’t very feasible. Getting 2 chances at backstab is feasible yes however it can be counterplayed by evade and moving.

Now here’s the thing and yolo swagginz makes a very good point are you asking for more counterplay to stealth or more counterplay to backstab? The counterplay to stealth is the same as other things, interrupt when you see someone casting BP + HS or CnD or SR.

Counterplay to backstab and counterplay to stealth are not the same thing exactly.

I think I’ve made it pretty clear what I’m asking for: popping out of stealth (without revealed debuff) when your attack gets dodged/blocked/blinded (but not if you merely use a skill on the ground, so you can still use mobility skills while stealthed, for example). Not sure why you’re trying to make this only about stealth, or only about backstab. It obviously would affect all attacks while stealthed.

Also, your point about “counterplaying” two sneak attacks is kind of self-defeating. If the best counterplay you came up with was to burn two dodges/CDs, then you know something is wrong. It’d be like if you made it so a warrior who misses eviscerate gets the cooldown reset and max adrenaline so he can immediately retry, and then told the other player, “well, you can just dodge again! counterplay!”

I think the problem in your reasoning is that you’re asking the wrong question, “is there counterplay,” rather than the right one: “is the available counterplay balanced in terms of risk/reward, compared to the counterplay that’s available for other mechanics in the game”?

Again I return to the point you made that made me change my mind from agreeing with you that channeled skills like RF (which does a lot more damage than BS + Sigil Proc) is to dodge twice or counter with an interrupt as soon as it starts. I was with you on the revealing out of stealth until you made the point that “to stop those things do this” which I then applied to stealth attacks. So in answer to your question, yes it does have the same amount of counter play as some other mechanics in the game.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Shadow.1345:

ResJudicator.7916:

The difference is that you can see the channeled skills being activated. And once you counterplay (dodge/block/los/interrupt) them, they go on a cooldown and can’t be re-used until the cooldown resets. Stealth doesn’t have any of these limitations.

But I agree with ending stealth on a dodge/block/blind without adding any reveal debuff. I honestly don’t even think this would affect thieves in many situations (i.e. when they’re +1ing to gank). It makes the biggest difference for those situations where the guy knows you’re backstabbing, and he dodges it, but you still have enough time left in stealth to backstab again so he has to burn another dodge. (Not everyone can just AOE their feet in response to a missed backstab).

You know you make a really good point about interrupts and being able to see channeled skills being cast and it made think about something. BS is the real issue it seems, that and the whole resetting fights. The way I see the resetting fights is it works both ways. The thief heals up some, though the heal from SR is means staying in an area outlined as the thief is here with 5 pulses for 1865 which gives 9325 health but being kept to a general area. Still nothing stops the other class from healing and during that time the thief is sitting in stealth after SR, up to 15 seconds, the opponents skills are cooling down.

Yet back to the BS and stealth not going back onto some sort of CD or being uninterruptible so I logged in just to test this and found that BP has a cast time of 1/2 seconds before the blind is applied. It also has one of the most unique sounds and creates a field around the thief before the animation is finished for the long ranged blind to be applied. Then HS must be used so for that combo it can be interrupted and cost initiative which basically translates as to thief weapon CDs. CnD has a 1/2 second cast time and very noticeable animation. SR has a 1/4 second cast time and I have had it interrupted and put on CD on me more than once. Blinding Powders is instant but it does come with a CD. (I’m not really able to test it right now but I seem to remember that interrupting thief weapon skills does make them go on that same global CD when they are dazed but not 100% sure on that. I could be wrong.) When a backstab is evaded by a dodge roll then that is a 1/4 second animation plus the time to travel by foot or by IS (Signet active w/CD) or Steal(CD) or trying to SS and hit the backstab before the bullet connects but that is not very feasible at that range before the stealth wears off. So you basically made me realize that interrupts/dodges are also a counterplay to stealth as well so I take back the idea about ending stealth on an evaded attack because channeled attacks that last longer than the evade time still continue to do damage.

Stopped reading at SR heals for 9,3k health…

In the meantime every AoE possible is being thrown at you as it pulses for 1.8k over 5 seconds. It’s not 9.3k immediately.

ResJudicator.7916:

Shadow.1345:

… trying to SS and hit the backstab before the bullet connects but that is not very feasible at that range before the stealth wears off. So you basically made me realize that interrupts/dodges are also a counterplay to stealth as well so I take back the idea about ending stealth on an evaded attack because channeled attacks that last longer than the evade time still continue to do damage.

Just fyi, you don’t have to connect w/ SS before backstab wears off. The idea is you cast SS and immediately start the backstab animation while still in stealth. The animation will continue even after stealth wears off, which let’s you connect w/ the backstab.

Also, I’m not sure how you reached your conclusion with your tests. It’s not hard to get at least 2 backstab attempts off while in stealth. (Obviously you don’t do this vs every build, because some builds, i.e. engies, will nuke the ground where you were after dodging the first backstab).

No one is seriously saying that stealth has 0 counterplay (except maybe the crazies). But stealth attacks have much less counterplay than non-stealth attacks. Every “counter” you and others have described for stealth attacks applies to other attacks, except that the counters are much weaker vs stealth attacks for the many reasons I’ve previously listed.

I meant the BS + SS at that range wasn’t very feasible. Getting 2 chances at backstab is feasible yes however it can be counterplayed by evade and moving.

Now here’s the thing and yolo swagginz makes a very good point are you asking for more counterplay to stealth or more counterplay to backstab? The counterplay to stealth is the same as other things, interrupt when you see someone casting BP + HS or CnD or SR.

Counterplay to backstab and counterplay to stealth are not the same thing exactly.

ResJudicator.7916:

The difference is that you can see the channeled skills being activated. And once you counterplay (dodge/block/los/interrupt) them, they go on a cooldown and can’t be re-used until the cooldown resets. Stealth doesn’t have any of these limitations.

But I agree with ending stealth on a dodge/block/blind without adding any reveal debuff. I honestly don’t even think this would affect thieves in many situations (i.e. when they’re +1ing to gank). It makes the biggest difference for those situations where the guy knows you’re backstabbing, and he dodges it, but you still have enough time left in stealth to backstab again so he has to burn another dodge. (Not everyone can just AOE their feet in response to a missed backstab).

You know you make a really good point about interrupts and being able to see channeled skills being cast and it made think about something. BS is the real issue it seems, that and the whole resetting fights. The way I see the resetting fights is it works both ways. The thief heals up some, though the heal from SR is means staying in an area outlined as the thief is here with 5 pulses for 1865 which gives 9325 health but being kept to a general area. Still nothing stops the other class from healing and during that time the thief is sitting in stealth after SR, up to 15 seconds, the opponents skills are cooling down.

Yet back to the BS and stealth not going back onto some sort of CD or being uninterruptible so I logged in just to test this and found that BP has a cast time of 1/2 seconds before the blind is applied. It also has one of the most unique sounds and creates a field around the thief before the animation is finished for the long ranged blind to be applied. Then HS must be used so for that combo it can be interrupted and cost initiative which basically translates as to thief weapon CDs. CnD has a 1/2 second cast time and very noticeable animation. SR has a 1/4 second cast time and I have had it interrupted and put on CD on me more than once. Blinding Powders is instant but it does come with a CD. (I’m not really able to test it right now but I seem to remember that interrupting thief weapon skills does make them go on that same global CD when they are dazed but not 100% sure on that. I could be wrong.) When a backstab is evaded by a dodge roll then that is a 1/4 second animation plus the time to travel by foot or by IS (Signet active w/CD) or Steal(CD) or trying to SS and hit the backstab before the bullet connects but that is not very feasible at that range before the stealth wears off. So you basically made me realize that interrupts/dodges are also a counterplay to stealth as well so I take back the idea about ending stealth on an evaded attack because channeled attacks that last longer than the evade time still continue to do damage.

ronpierce.2760:

@shadow
The counter play to channeled skills is interrupting it (steal/pistol4) before you stealth, considering you already are latched onto before you stealth, so that’s how I sort of see it. But anyways.

I agree, if it just removed stealth with no reveal I’d be okay with that, seems fair to me.

My biggest issue isn’t base stealth generally anyways, though. Really, SA just needs to be made more active and less of a reset build because that’s what makes it garbage (such as the ideas I threw out before that make it work with successful stealth attacks and other effects from coming out of stealth rather than directly benefitting while in stealth).

Sometimes it hits right as you go into stealth and then it also depends on range, LB Ranger can be at twice the range of pistol 4/steal too.

Also, look at what you just said. the counterplay to channeled ability is to play better and use your available skills. Seems to me that is what people who are saying to use movement, timing and prediction, ie. playing better and using your available skills.

Here’s a thought that I’d like some opinions on. As some of you should likely know I main a thief. The other class I play a lot is Necromancer but I enjoy Thief more.

One of the new things ANet has added as a tool is a Method call for OnEvadeAttack() or something like that. (I’m just guessing they are using some sort of Object Oriented programming and that seems like a logical name for it.) Now going in mind with the “you can’t make all the people happy all the time” part of customer service in an MMO you simply have to find some sort of middle ground. Some people think stealth shouldn’t be a mechanic and hate while some people love it as a mechanic which means it will remain. Removal of it entirely as a mechanic is just simply not going to happen. Now since the game can now proc things on successful evade things can be done with it. (Also keep in mind for you Mesmer there is a trait coming up where a successful evade means that next BS will be reflected back at the Thief,… OUCH!… how’s that for ccounterplay?)

How about stealth is removed but not add Revealed? Why not add Revealed? Because Revealed is for a successful attack to get rid of the BS > CnD > BS > CnD > BS chains which is by all means very fair. However in return is it possible then that stealth then successfully evades channeled attacks as well as bouncing attacks? People talk about counterplay to stealth but what about stealth as counterplay to channeled attacks. Should Blinding Powders then work to successfully end eating all that damage from homing missile RF? Seems fair enough to me if people think that being able to BS multiple times during the short span of stealth is unfair then channeled attacks still finding their mark even after Stealth + Dodge roll is equally unfair.

Thoughts?

The typical I got facerolled so nerf the class post.

Personally I’m gonna wait and see how it plays out before I jump to the OMFGUSUCKANET reaction because some things got changed.

Vulnerability will make you vulnerable to conditions too, awesome. Constantly I see people complaining about how condi builds are worthless. Alright they did some tweaking to conditions and suddenly it’s OMFGCONDISR2OP!!!

jihm.2315:

timmyf.1490:

Liewec.2896:

aslong as people are still picking skyhammer, i’m still quitting!

This is why we can’t have nice things. One player can ruin the experience for nine others.

the experience is already ruined when you pick skyhammer or courtyard

Easy fix. Play Ranked.

ResJudicator.7916:

Most of the posters who zealously oppose adding more counterplay to stealth show that they play thief at a pretty low level. Like the earlier post where someone talked about how much practice it takes to stack stealth with heartseeker, or the post where someone said aegis would be a total hardcounter to backstabs.

Well yes, I’m not that skilled, still fairly new to the game with only about 1k matches. I guess to an Esports giant like you that makes me a scrub.

However, the HS spam 4 times in that little BP area before it ends is listed as an advanced skill on Metabattle and isn’t something that is just done from watching the video once and mashing your face against the keyboard. Aka requires practice. Never said how much but it requires some practice instead of being this “takes no skill” thing the opposition to thieves love to scream.

On the other hand in that small time I have learned to counterplay stealth with just the mechanics in the game with AoE and AA wihout resporting to QQing on the forums. I have also said sure I would take see more counterplays to stealth as viable if being pigeonholed into one role was also addressed and fixed for the thief. And face it, they are. If you had some thief in your group tell you he was running a bunker or support build you’d want to kick him off your team.

Zende.1704:

I think we should wait to see the changes with their pros and cons before crying OP everywhere.

^ This.

So many times people have complained about changes before experiencing them only to have their minds change later when actually putting it into action.

Then they go into the Necromancer traits and show how they changed traits to proc when the Necromancer hits instead of being hit.

Oh no Necros won’t be able to convert quickness into a condition… I mean… oh wait… they will.

It’s not like any of this matters. People have been likely QQing about this same thing since release and Revealed was the fix. Stealth will remain. As for it staying when hitting a blocking person or a whiffed attack and realism being called in, it’s called magic. It’s more like an invisibility spell than stealth.

As for silly exaggerations, people act like 2-3 seconds is a lifetime and Thief can just backstab forever. Yes you can stack with HS spam but it not easy to do. Just try it yourself and see how much practice it takes.

Nightshade.2570:

@Zeft, I 100% understand what your saying. There are facets of the Thief abilities that don’t make sense. I think you should be revealed by using an interface like stomping. I don’t think you should be able to stealth stomp.

However, In my interest of learning how thieves work I, who normally plays necro/mediguard , started running a thief for a while in WvW and PvP to get a feel for what thier abilities are and how to counter them. I had always lived under the belief that Stealth was like this be all end all that would save me.

It doesn’t and, more to the point I was shocked by how low their health pool is, how hard it is sometimes to land hits ect. Now, I am no master thief, and thief is not a profession I am currently interested in. I mainly wanted to understand it so I could combat it. But, I think I can say safely that there are areas of thief that need help, that need change to improve thier QOL, meanwhile there are other areas that are not counterable, and could use rework.

However, this is the case for almost every class except a few. The thing that people don’t realize is that high damage classes may seem easy with no skill to play and do damage but, they actually take ALOT of skill to survive on.

Thank you!

A sensible person who did the sensible thing and actually tried the profession out instead of just running to the forums QQing for a nerf. You then proceeded to find out what everyone who mains a thief knows. We die really kittening easily if we mess up and stealth isn’t this super invulnerability people make it out to be.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Thieves are squi…oh oops! Nvm! Resilience of shadows! Coming to thief near you with core specialization update as shadow arts minor. You pick shadowarts, you’re no longer the squish vs direct damage when you stealth.

And Ranger isn’t getting a buff to LB with faster velocity as Baseline and traiting for faster attacks and faster cooldowns plus Opening Strike proccing more often?

Srsly, pretty much every class is getting buffed with core specializations.

Darkwolfer.7819:

I hate stealth in most games. The only thing I’d like to stop with stealth is the ability to cap people while stealth
OR
Revamp all down skills to have #2 do an AOE blast

Honestly I’m not really a fan of downed skills anyways. They seem unbalanced.

You know what, I just don’t like stealth. Oh well.

Have you ever tried to do a stomp without stealth or using the shadowstep trick as a thief? You can literally get downed from the downed state AA before the stomp animation finishes.

Sagat.3285:

Oh man someone brought in necro and gave us the HP argument even war, without Healing Signet,LB and CI war has no sustain the argument HP=sustain is pure crap, it’s like saying there is a reason to no put necro to the sides first, you lost all credibility on class balance you are done.

It certainly gives more sustain than having a low amount of HP. The point I was making is that classes have more than just their Endurance bar for defense. Necromancer has a larger pool of health from Vitality + a second pool of health in Death Shroud. That doesn’t include all the condi cleanse and life leech that the class comes with as well.

Laraley.7695:

tetrodoxin.2134:

And you’re starting to compare to other classes, for some reason. I wasn’t even asking for nerfs here or to remove stealth from thief or the D/P build, but some people tend to feel attacked once you state the obvious. Yes, other classes do have vigor. Yes, D/P depends on stealth for the most part and they don’t have invuls and blocks, but it also has access to plenty of evades (and other stuff) if necessary. If a class picks a vigor trait or evade skills/utilities then yes, I’d say it picks it as a part of its defense.

Care to explain why “that’s funny?” I don’t even understand how anyone would argue that. All I was saying is that even on D/P, you also have evade traits/skills. I was just correcting a statement with my response above, claiming “thieves only have stealth”, which is wrong. That’s it, no harm done.

I’ll stop here before I get sucked into the thread. x)

And I was just stating that thief does depend on stealth. To me, saying thief has withdraw and vigor is like stating thief has endurance bar. Pretty sure the point of thief having stealth meant it just simply doesn’t have invulnerabilities or blocks. No class is just left with one defensive mechanics, but it indeed depends on some it. This applies to all classes but necro.

Necromancer has Death Shroud plus the same health pool as Warriors.

Laraley has a point and yes, I’m sorry tetrodoxin, I was wrong it’s not the Thieves only defense but it is a huge part of their mechanic for surviving fights and not just giving the other team 5 points every time they get focused in a team fight.

Back to Laraley’s point that classes have something other than evade which every class has to help with survivability. Stealth, extra ways to evade and plenty of blinds is the Thief’s way. Also if you’re going to state this thread is a way to balance the class then other classes have to be mentioned as well. Otherwise this is just a “I don’t like this mechanic because it annoys me thread” and that’s just being selfish.

The way I see it complaints about how OP a class will be with 3 full trait lines against current builds is pointless because everyone will get 3 full trait lines. Also, all the specializations haven’t been released yet. When Reaver was announced people were complaining about how OP it was going to be until they released the Reaper then that was the new OP.

Back when GW2 was beta trait lines got an overhaul before the release. I’m sure during this time, since they said the trait lines aren’t set in stone, that there will be changes before the release.

You can always tell someone who doesn’t play a thief often because they don’t understand how stealth can be countered. Those of us do know because we get countered on it.

Here is the problem with people asking for it to be nerfed or removed. Thieves have nothing else for defense. Fine nerf it but give me a better HP pool and more armor because with my 2k armor and 14k HP means I’m pretty much paper. Oh and don’t reduce my spike damage either.

And if people aren’t complaining about thief stealth they are complaining about the amount of evades.

StickerHappy.8052:

Actually I said “sometimes we just don’t move fast enough or in the wrong direction and eat that damage” meaning that sometimes the player’s reaction time might be off, not that the toon’s speed isn’t good enough.

As for counters as a mesmer, you have the same thing as a shadow step skill to put distance between you and your opponent. You have Decoy. I’ve seen Mesmers time it well and have my backstab just nail a clone while they get the advantage of stealth.

Every class in the game as an evade. Use it. There is also something in your keybindings that you can set to turning 180 degrees with a single key press to assist in turning. Backstab from the front is only half damage and still gives 5 seconds of Revealed. Like Kaseseigi said, you don’t have to stand there and wait to be backstabbed.

There is this show I used to watch called Burn Notice and I believe in the pilot there was some guy being threatened by some organized crime people. The main character makes mention of how people think the victims are supposed to do nothing and just wait around for the attack to come instead of preparing for it. He then proceeds to set up an ambush to counter the attack. Now I’m not saying to go set up an elaborate counter ambush but I am saying that you don’t have to just stand there waiting for the thief to engage you on their terms. You can even run away from the point if you think you will lose a 1v1 vs a thief who just stealthed. No reason to be inflexible and give the other team 5 points and a capped point.

As far as people talking about resetting the fight, it’s a mirror. When the thief goes into stealth and runs away to reset the fight the fight is also reset for the non-thief allowing their CDs and chance to heal.

Dude trust me I have done all of that, I have 4k games, so please I would rather avoid the l2p argument.

The thing is, decoy and blink are on a cooldown system, just to avoid a simple BS which you could use multiple times (given you have initiative) okay I block you with sword 4, you won’t get revealed, meaning another BS can be used (you are still in stealth) so then I decoy, 40 sec cd untraited, You can stealth again right after that right? and return to point 1. I mean this is the counterplay I am looking for. Blink on the other hand, will gain me some distance yes, (But remember you are still stealthed because I blocked your attack) now add the insta daze steal to that to put pressure. Even if I manage to fight back, you can easily stealth back and reset the fight (not to mention to Ectoplasm you get)

Blinding powder is also a hard counter (ignore this, it will derail the thread)

The 180 degree statement you said, I would gladly take it BUT once someone is in stealth, you cant tell what they will do next, What If he just baited his BS and steal and and SB bursts you? (SB 2)

All of this are very easy to say on paper, but very hard to do in practice especially in higher MMR matches.

BOTTOM LINE As a shatter mesmer, assuming equally skilled mes and thief, the shatter mesmer will have to get really really lucky to land a burst that will kill the thief.

PS: Other mesmer builds like condi do fine.

Yeah, you’re playing a Shatter Mesmer, Thieves eat them alive. The only real counter a Shatter Mesmer has to a thief is to hit first and hit hard. Also sometimes as a thief stealth comes off and I get insta-gibbed by all those clones.

Every build has something that destroys it. I only very recently switched from CS to PS build and D/D Celestial Elementalists used to just flatten me in a few seconds. Like as soon as I popped up against one I was dead. Was it frustrating? Yes. Did I think that meant Elementalists needed to be nerfed? No.

StickerHappy.8052:

oscuro.9720:

Sagat.3285:

Every class is not using initiative that’s the problem and thief resetting is intended design.

This made me lol irl.
I was just thinking about guardian spamming whirling wrath or a ranger spamming rapidfire

How can you spam something with a cooldown?

He is probably saying something I have said before to others that when people playing other classes complain about thieves being able to spam I counter by saying “If you could spam abilities you would too”. Now imagine if those two classes had initiative and how often they would spam those attacks.

StickerHappy.8052:

Kageseigi.2150:

StickerHappy.8052:

@Shadow

Yes I am calling you out.

http://www.twitch.tv/tarcisanastasis/c/3038277

00:35 second mark, do you notice Caed does not stay put inside SR? so Where’s your argument tha:t

A.) You don’t move fast enough?
B.) AOE counters stealth

So, let me get this straight. You’re attempting to invalidate Shadow’s “counter” to stealth as a whole by basing it against a single utility skill that’s defaulted to a 60-second cooldown period?

First of all, Shadow Refuge is the exception. All other stealth skills last for a maximum of 3-4 seconds. In order to get the backstab, the thief must catch up to you AND flank you before stealth runs out.

Secondly, stacking stealth uses utilities or the MAJORITY of a thief’s initiative. If he does so, he’s in hot water if his initial attack goes badly.

Thirdly, a smart “assassin” will Shadow Refuge where he cannot be seen. That’s the one method of stealthing that there isn’t anything you can really do. But you can’t do much about being Moa blindsided either. That’s how the game works.

Fourthly, unless you are forced to, why even bother with a thief when you are not on point and you see him go into Shadow Refuge? He’s stuck there for 4 seconds. Book it to a point. Make him chase you. That is unless you just want to go thief-hunting. But that keeps you off-point.

And finally, do NOT AoE where you saw the thief enter stealth. AoE yourself. In fact, AoE behind yourself, and back into it while auto-attacking. Will it save you from the almighty backstab? By itself, probably not. But it may make the thief think twice. It will punish him. And if you keep on the move as suggested, the thief may just run out of stealth before he takes your back. Remember… 3-4 seconds is the duration for stealth skills without COSTLY stacking.

Ps. Somebody mentioned putting a 3/4 second cast time on Headshot? Are thieves now clairvoyant? If not, they’d have to first recognize a situation they needed to interrupt, which can take fractions of a seconds by itself, send an electrical current from their brains to their fingers, AND wait another 3/4 of a second before the shot goes off? And that’s not even including latency. My goodness, what a thread this is!

SR is not the only that can cast stealth, right? The main point is, While in stealth you can avoid damage if you WANT to. Shadow was saying earlier that thieves cannot move fast enough

Actually I said “sometimes we just don’t move fast enough or in the wrong direction and eat that damage” meaning that sometimes the player’s reaction time might be off, not that the toon’s speed isn’t good enough.

As for counters as a mesmer, you have the same thing as a shadow step skill to put distance between you and your opponent. You have Decoy. I’ve seen Mesmers time it well and have my backstab just nail a clone while they get the advantage of stealth.

Every class in the game as an evade. Use it. There is also something in your keybindings that you can set to turning 180 degrees with a single key press to assist in turning. Backstab from the front is only half damage and still gives 5 seconds of Revealed. Like Kaseseigi said, you don’t have to stand there and wait to be backstabbed.

There is this show I used to watch called Burn Notice and I believe in the pilot there was some guy being threatened by some organized crime people. The main character makes mention of how people think the victims are supposed to do nothing and just wait around for the attack to come instead of preparing for it. He then proceeds to set up an ambush to counter the attack. Now I’m not saying to go set up an elaborate counter ambush but I am saying that you don’t have to just stand there waiting for the thief to engage you on their terms. You can even run away from the point if you think you will lose a 1v1 vs a thief who just stealthed. No reason to be inflexible and give the other team 5 points and a capped point.

As far as people talking about resetting the fight, it’s a mirror. When the thief goes into stealth and runs away to reset the fight the fight is also reset for the non-thief allowing their CDs and chance to heal.

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

-snip

I never said that hitting a stealthed thief was guaranteed, just said it can be done but if you want to call that contradicting myself then whatever. I was in dramatic fashion stating with just using your head you can counter stealth with the most simple attack in the game on a class I have very little experience playing.

Noone is saying that stealth makes you invincible, where did you get that? Invincible means = 0 damage taken. Cmon flop some more.

Some things said in this thread…

“2)You can’t interact with the thief once he’s stealthed, that’s basically invulnerability”

“a period of time where thief cannot be harmed, that’s invulnerability in practice.”

And that’s just 2 instances of people likening it to invulnerability in a quick skim.

But in the end instead of QQing on the forums when I lose to something I just look at it as a challenge to overcome instead of crying over it.

That is not invulnerability. Really? So You can’t AoE bomb him for a period of time? Again you are contradicting yourself. So go ahead and tell your fellow thieves that AoE is not a way to deal with stealth, since you are invulnerable for a period of time right?

No, that’s quotes from other people on this thread likening it to invulnerability. Iam stating quite the opposite.

That is why I told you, stop listening to those posts, but provide constructive feedback on non exaggerated posts. I am really sorry but infuriates me for you thieves to always express you have it worse than other classes.

I don’t think thieves have it worse than other classes. They are however hamstringed into one role. You can’t run Support on them. Controller is pretty much a joke. Condis? Pfft, Necro and Ranger are just two classes out of the 4 total classes I have even played on this game that easily beat Thief in conditions. The bleed stacking on pistols is crap compared to a Ranger flanking with SB.

Personally I wouldn’t mind seeing more skills like Sic ‘Em for countering stealth but I’d want to see the Thief have more viability in other roles in exchange.

Sure people who main thieves get defensive when other people kitten and complain about the two defenses they have, stealth and evade. And even for a lot of evasion you have to run S/D and sacrifice some of that spike damage. Other than that thieves have next to no damage mitigation and garbage HP so escape is all a thief really has for survivability. Elementalists have the same problem sure but they also have tons of defense in the right attunement.

Also thief is not a “takes no skill” class. If a thief gets the drop on you then yes they maul your face off. If not then they can get spanked pretty hard.

Sure my post was a tongue in cheek way of calling out crybabies on here that act like there is absolutely nothing that can be done once a thief goes into stealth but there can be. Nobody ever told anyone you have to just stand around and wait for that backstab. Be proactive against it and sometimes you get that laugh when you see the poor little thief laying on the ground trying to heal his meager HP to get back up before getting facemelted.

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

-snip

I never said that hitting a stealthed thief was guaranteed, just said it can be done but if you want to call that contradicting myself then whatever. I was in dramatic fashion stating with just using your head you can counter stealth with the most simple attack in the game on a class I have very little experience playing.

Noone is saying that stealth makes you invincible, where did you get that? Invincible means = 0 damage taken. Cmon flop some more.

Some things said in this thread…

“2)You can’t interact with the thief once he’s stealthed, that’s basically invulnerability”

“a period of time where thief cannot be harmed, that’s invulnerability in practice.”

And that’s just 2 instances of people likening it to invulnerability in a quick skim.

But in the end instead of QQing on the forums when I lose to something I just look at it as a challenge to overcome instead of crying over it.

That is not invulnerability. Really? So You can’t AoE bomb him for a period of time? Again you are contradicting yourself. So go ahead and tell your fellow thieves that AoE is not a way to deal with stealth, since you are invulnerable for a period of time right?

No, that’s quotes from other people on this thread likening it to invulnerability. I am stating quite the opposite.

You said nobody was calling it invulnerability and I found two quick quotes from people on this thread that said it.

Gabriell.4856:

Shadow.1345:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Shadow.1345:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

I was just in a match and saw I was paired with two other thieves. I didn’t want to be in a Ranked match with 3 thieves so I switched to warrior. My second match as a warrior and being a thief win day there was 2 thieves on the opposing team. Early in I was defending a point and the thief went into stealth. My toon’s life flashed before my eyes, I thought for sure he was dead with this invincible mechanic being used against me. I spammed my AA in a dread panic and in 2 seconds it was all over…

…there was a downed thief that lost his nigh invulnerable and un-uncounterable stealth.

I breathed a sigh of relief and AAed the poor thief to death.

L2P.

Uhmm how do you AA something you can’t see? So…The thief decided to eat all your AA then? what?

So…. are you parading the fact that the thief decided to stay in place while in stealth to eat all your AA? What a joke.

Any half decent thief will move away from where the are he is being attacked to avoid damage.

#Flopsomemore

No, it’s called moving and thinking. I just moved around, swung my sword starting from where I knew he went into stealth at and moved in the direction I guessed he would move to get a backstab off on me. Not that hard really.

#L2PNoob

So the thief can move too? Not that hard really.

Yes, the thief can move too and as someone who mains a thief I know that despite being able to move sometimes we just don’t move fast enough or in the wrong direction and eat that damage. The point people are missing is that stealth doesn’t make a thief any less squishy.

The point most are missing is a good thief won’t make these mistakes and won’t leave such a weak counter play option available, which is why AOE or AA spam is not viable or even valuable counter play.

So what you’re saying is good players should be punished for being good at what they do?

Alright because this is going over your head I will try to break this down. Playing a guessing game with thiefs or the stealth mechanic in general is not fun and it does not make someone a better a player, neither does it promote skillful gameplay.

Good players do not make mistakes (to often) like take a face full of auto attacks or not dodging in their refuge when they know AOEs are coming. This has been pretty much common knowledge as a thief to dodge in your refuge and to bait out dodges/cooldowns before you open/burst.

There is no counterplay to stop a thief from doing whatever they want to their target they can call out a target and spike them from 1800 range whenever they want. Whether it is from stealth or just completely out of line of sight.

From 1800 range? How?

Also there are things about probably every profession someone can say is not fun to play against or doesn’t promote skillful play.

1800 range

SS+Steal or SS+IS or Steal+IS or SS +Sword#2 or Sword blah blah blah blah blah…

Oh sorry I meant from 1800 whenever they want not when all those skills are off cooldown and you don’t mind blowing at least one stunbreaker without a sword.

StickerHappy.8052:

-snip

I never said that hitting a stealthed thief was guaranteed, just said it can be done but if you want to call that contradicting myself then whatever. I was in dramatic fashion stating with just using your head you can counter stealth with the most simple attack in the game on a class I have very little experience playing.

Noone is saying that stealth makes you invincible, where did you get that? Invincible means = 0 damage taken. Cmon flop some more.

Some things said in this thread…

“2)You can’t interact with the thief once he’s stealthed, that’s basically invulnerability”

“a period of time where thief cannot be harmed, that’s invulnerability in practice.”

And that’s just 2 instances of people likening it to invulnerability in a quick skim.

But in the end instead of QQing on the forums when I lose to something I just look at it as a challenge to overcome instead of crying over it.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Shadow.1345:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

I was just in a match and saw I was paired with two other thieves. I didn’t want to be in a Ranked match with 3 thieves so I switched to warrior. My second match as a warrior and being a thief win day there was 2 thieves on the opposing team. Early in I was defending a point and the thief went into stealth. My toon’s life flashed before my eyes, I thought for sure he was dead with this invincible mechanic being used against me. I spammed my AA in a dread panic and in 2 seconds it was all over…

…there was a downed thief that lost his nigh invulnerable and un-uncounterable stealth.

I breathed a sigh of relief and AAed the poor thief to death.

L2P.

Uhmm how do you AA something you can’t see? So…The thief decided to eat all your AA then? what?

So…. are you parading the fact that the thief decided to stay in place while in stealth to eat all your AA? What a joke.

Any half decent thief will move away from where the are he is being attacked to avoid damage.

#Flopsomemore

No, it’s called moving and thinking. I just moved around, swung my sword starting from where I knew he went into stealth at and moved in the direction I guessed he would move to get a backstab off on me. Not that hard really.

#L2PNoob

So the thief can move too? Not that hard really.

Yes, the thief can move too and as someone who mains a thief I know that despite being able to move sometimes we just don’t move fast enough or in the wrong direction and eat that damage. The point people are missing is that stealth doesn’t make a thief any less squishy.

The point most are missing is a good thief won’t make these mistakes and won’t leave such a weak counter play option available, which is why AOE or AA spam is not viable or even valuable counter play.

So what you’re saying is good players should be punished for being good at what they do?

Alright because this is going over your head I will try to break this down. Playing a guessing game with thiefs or the stealth mechanic in general is not fun and it does not make someone a better a player, neither does it promote skillful gameplay.

Good players do not make mistakes (to often) like take a face full of auto attacks or not dodging in their refuge when they know AOEs are coming. This has been pretty much common knowledge as a thief to dodge in your refuge and to bait out dodges/cooldowns before you open/burst.

There is no counterplay to stop a thief from doing whatever they want to their target they can call out a target and spike them from 1800 range whenever they want. Whether it is from stealth or just completely out of line of sight.

From 1800 range? How?

Also there are things about probably every profession someone can say is not fun to play against or doesn’t promote skillful play.

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

I was just in a match and saw I was paired with two other thieves. I didn’t want to be in a Ranked match with 3 thieves so I switched to warrior. My second match as a warrior and being a thief win day there was 2 thieves on the opposing team. Early in I was defending a point and the thief went into stealth. My toon’s life flashed before my eyes, I thought for sure he was dead with this invincible mechanic being used against me. I spammed my AA in a dread panic and in 2 seconds it was all over…

…there was a downed thief that lost his nigh invulnerable and un-uncounterable stealth.

I breathed a sigh of relief and AAed the poor thief to death.

L2P.

Uhmm how do you AA something you can’t see? So…The thief decided to eat all your AA then? what?

So…. are you parading the fact that the thief decided to stay in place while in stealth to eat all your AA? What a joke.

Any half decent thief will move away from where the are he is being attacked to avoid damage.

#Flopsomemore

No, it’s called moving and thinking. I just moved around, swung my sword starting from where I knew he went into stealth at and moved in the direction I guessed he would move to get a backstab off on me. Not that hard really.

#L2PNoob

So the thief can move too? Not that hard really.

Yes, the thief can move too and as someone who mains a thief I know that despite being able to move sometimes we just don’t move fast enough or in the wrong direction and eat that damage. The point people are missing is that stealth doesn’t make a thief any less squishy.

The point most are missing is a good thief won’t make these mistakes and won’t leave such a weak counter play option available, which is why AOE or AA spam is not viable or even valuable counter play.

So what you’re saying is good players should be punished for being good at what they do?

http://www.twitch.tv/tarcisanastasis/c/3038277
00:35 second mark, do you notice Caed does not stay put inside SR? so Where’s your argument tha:t
A.) You don’t move fast enough?
B.) AOE counters stealth

Yeah, nobody said you had to stay put in SR to eat the damage. He moved out of the way of the attack. You can do that with or without stealth since the attack was a basically a channeled animation attack instead of one of those big AoE circle attacks.

Also, the thief goes on to lose that duel so that doesn’t really help with the thieves are invincible because of stealth argument.

Are you saying you want a definite never fails counter to stealth that any lame brain can just drool on the keyboard to do?

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

I was just in a match and saw I was paired with two other thieves. I didn’t want to be in a Ranked match with 3 thieves so I switched to warrior. My second match as a warrior and being a thief win day there was 2 thieves on the opposing team. Early in I was defending a point and the thief went into stealth. My toon’s life flashed before my eyes, I thought for sure he was dead with this invincible mechanic being used against me. I spammed my AA in a dread panic and in 2 seconds it was all over…

…there was a downed thief that lost his nigh invulnerable and un-uncounterable stealth.

I breathed a sigh of relief and AAed the poor thief to death.

L2P.

Uhmm how do you AA something you can’t see? So…The thief decided to eat all your AA then? what?

So…. are you parading the fact that the thief decided to stay in place while in stealth to eat all your AA? What a joke.

Any half decent thief will move away from where the are he is being attacked to avoid damage.

#Flopsomemore

No, it’s called moving and thinking. I just moved around, swung my sword starting from where I knew he went into stealth at and moved in the direction I guessed he would move to get a backstab off on me. Not that hard really.

#L2PNoob

So the thief can move too? Not that hard really.

Yes, the thief can move too and as someone who mains a thief I know that despite being able to move sometimes we just don’t move fast enough or in the wrong direction and eat that damage. The point people are missing is that stealth doesn’t make a thief any less squishy.

The point most are missing is a good thief won’t make these mistakes and won’t leave such a weak counter play option available, which is why AOE or AA spam is not viable or even valuable counter play.

So what you’re saying is good players should be punished for being good at what they do?

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

I was just in a match and saw I was paired with two other thieves. I didn’t want to be in a Ranked match with 3 thieves so I switched to warrior. My second match as a warrior and being a thief win day there was 2 thieves on the opposing team. Early in I was defending a point and the thief went into stealth. My toon’s life flashed before my eyes, I thought for sure he was dead with this invincible mechanic being used against me. I spammed my AA in a dread panic and in 2 seconds it was all over…

…there was a downed thief that lost his nigh invulnerable and un-uncounterable stealth.

I breathed a sigh of relief and AAed the poor thief to death.

L2P.

Uhmm how do you AA something you can’t see? So…The thief decided to eat all your AA then? what?

So…. are you parading the fact that the thief decided to stay in place while in stealth to eat all your AA? What a joke.

Any half decent thief will move away from where the are he is being attacked to avoid damage.

#Flopsomemore

No, it’s called moving and thinking. I just moved around, swung my sword starting from where I knew he went into stealth at and moved in the direction I guessed he would move to get a backstab off on me. Not that hard really.

#L2PNoob

So the thief can move too? Not that hard really.

Yes, the thief can move too and as someone who mains a thief I know that despite being able to move sometimes we just don’t move fast enough or in the wrong direction and eat that damage. The point people are missing is that stealth doesn’t make a thief any less squishy.

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

I was just in a match and saw I was paired with two other thieves. I didn’t want to be in a Ranked match with 3 thieves so I switched to warrior. My second match as a warrior and being a thief win day there was 2 thieves on the opposing team. Early in I was defending a point and the thief went into stealth. My toon’s life flashed before my eyes, I thought for sure he was dead with this invincible mechanic being used against me. I spammed my AA in a dread panic and in 2 seconds it was all over…

…there was a downed thief that lost his nigh invulnerable and un-uncounterable stealth.

I breathed a sigh of relief and AAed the poor thief to death.

L2P.

Uhmm how do you AA something you can’t see? So…The thief decided to eat all your AA then? what?

So…. are you parading the fact that the thief decided to stay in place while in stealth to eat all your AA? What a joke.

Any half decent thief will move away from where the are he is being attacked to avoid damage.

#Flopsomemore

No, it’s called moving and thinking. I just moved around, swung my sword starting from where I knew he went into stealth at and moved in the direction I guessed he would move to get a backstab off on me. Not that hard really.

#L2PNoob

I was just in a match and saw I was paired with two other thieves. I didn’t want to be in a Ranked match with 3 thieves so I switched to warrior. My second match as a warrior and being a thief win day there was 2 thieves on the opposing team. Early in I was defending a point and the thief went into stealth. My toon’s life flashed before my eyes, I thought for sure he was dead with this invincible mechanic being used against me. I spammed my AA in a dread panic and in 2 seconds it was all over…

…there was a downed thief that lost his nigh invulnerable and un-uncounterable stealth.

I breathed a sigh of relief and AAed the poor thief to death.

L2P.

If you know 99% of people agree with you why are you asking for opinions?

There are constantly posts about such and such profession/build/“thing” requires no skill on the players part. Personally I like PvP for the challenge of it and since thief has been deemed by so many on here as a no skill profession because positioning for a backstab doesn’t require any skill on the user part I was wondering what is a profession and viable build that requires skill on the players part and reasons why?

Terrorsquad.4802:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Mrbig.8019:

More on topic, the real issue is that D/P is such a strong set that can’t be paired with strong sustain ( given by condi cleanse in stealth and vamp runes invuln+ leech) without losing huge part of its damage.

It does lose dps due the loss of Fury uptime.

Air/fire + leech procs give panic strike thief the damage it would lack by going into DA + SA instead of CS

That’s not Thief’s fault, thats sigils + rune balance problem.

The result is the most OP build this game has ever seen

Shoutbow and Slick Shoes? Anyone?

Stop complaining about a thief not being able to 1vs1 a cele proff ( something that is not even true if u think of a fight without time constrainsts), thief is not even meant to 1vs1 things.

Exactly, and thief is not meant to even fights either. Only to +1. So if you get killed by thief, its because you were outnumbered.

Thief is no more about skill, it’s just about camping stealth till u get things back on CD, and most of these things are procs ( leeches, panic strike, air/fire, steal, withdraw).

• Leech = Vamp Rune
• Panic Strike = Dedicated Traitline (6)
• Air/Fire = Sigil RnG procs
• Steal = Not a proc, is a skill we actually press and decide when to use
• Withdraw = Not a proc, is a skill we actually press and decide when to use

As we can see in the list above, gathered from your post, the problem lies in Sigils and Runes, not the Thief itself.

Signed

Ex-thief main from times when u weren’t even planned by your parents.

Right.. Your post clearly shows that.

The only class comparable to thief is shoutbow. Thief warps the game due to its stealth insta spikes with no counter play. It pushes out or makes it hard to play many squishy specs that people might otherwise play. Shoutbow has the same effect in that it forces out all condition builds from the meta.

But thief is more oppressive. Not sure which is easier to play. Both have been picked up and played well by the wider community which is when you know something is too easy. When people are able to reroll to d/p thief and shoutbow in a day or two and become 95% as good as thief mains of their level then there is an issue.

Ye, lets not even talk about the low skill curve of necro’s/engi/ele/guards.. Those are even easier to learn and pick up.
Necro: 11111111111111 DIES 11111111111111111112

You see, I can give subjective replies aswel.

Supreme.3164:

There is no reason why a thief should be able to sit in stealth for as long as he can in order to recover , a period of time where thief cannot be harmed, that’s invulnerability in practice.

The thief can effectively avoid damage unless the enemy manages to land a lucky hit (which btw won’t reveal the thief from stealth)

Except the thief can be harmed. How much time have you played a thief in PvP? You still take damage while in stealth and thieves being pretty much stuck in the Zerker or useless role means every hit hurts.

There are plenty of counter plays to stealth if you’re just smart. Most anything that cleaves will hit them unless they are positioned to avoid it. Sure there is a dodge roll but that just means the thief has moved further from backstabbing. If the thief is using it to break away from the fight then that thief is just letting you cap the point. As I said earlier, SR is just 5 seconds of AoE/Cleave here to damage the thief because the pitiful heal SR gives is not going to save the thief. Leaving early just means losing all stacks of stealth and wasting the skill. (and Improvisation is only a 20% chance to get Deception skills recharged). BP + HS stealth stacking is an advanced skill and not as easy it looks to do, plus again it’s just another one of those attack here to hurt the thief.

Jesiah.2457:

Jekkt.6045:

the best one is this one though:

How about a thief using Shadow Arts in conquest to heal up & keep you in combat? Chances are you were actually beating it down and it hid and has to heal for a long time if not just run away and reset or just leave entirely

try and do that on a necro and you’ll see how fast this living punching bag is and how well he can disengage or reset a fight. oh and a dead necro can’t do anything for his team either.

I wouldn’t try that as a necro because then I can’t shadow refuge when I’m getting my butt whipped and then run away to stop from at least feeding the enemy team five additional points on top of being useless to the team.

Geeze, where do some of you people get your logic. :l

Shadow Refuge = 5 seconds of AoE here to kill the thief.

If thieves are so OP why do people kitten about how many bad thieves there are on their PUG teams?

yolo swaggins.2570:

3.) Added weapon sets will most likely not be copied between elite specs if the current trend continues. For example, Chronomancer got a shield and so everything else will not get a shield this time around. That means hammer, greatsword, shield and longbow are out.

Also would mean staff is out since Druid has been confirmed, even if they haven’t released any further information on it.

PistolWhip.2697:

I find it far more annoying when someone is killed by a group in certain scenario’s and says “Lol 3v1”

I find it funny more than annoying when they do that.

Another funny one is after you kill them and they say “Lucky”. Nope. I pressed those buttons with the intent of killing you. It wasn’t just random button mashing with a random outcome that came out in my favor.

What people like shadaux want is for the Easter Bunny to be real. They want this thing they call balance which I am guessing means that every class is just as effective at everything as every other class and diversity which I guess means just being able to click buttons at random and do as good as any other random clicking of buttons. I’m not sure what these kind of people call perfect balance exists because there as certainly never been an MMORPG where people haven’t complained about lack of balance. The only way to have that is to have one class with all the same stats and doesn’t allow for any build changes and that would mean perfect balance but then there would be no diversity and people would complain about that. Basically they want fairy tales to be real.

I feel like this turned into some kind of political statement and there is that guy who is calling people sheep for not believing some conspiracy. Personally I think the way a game will ever be truly balanced for the kinds of players that always harp about balance is having one class with all the same stats and skills but then those same people would complain about the lack of diversity then.

OP if you ever want to run some matches together you can add me and message me IG. I know the game has a steep learning curve and don’t mind running with someone new to help them out.

Played Ranked a bunch and what’s the point? Not like it is any better. Just played a match where someone quit 1 minute into the match and left us with a 4v5. Not like the players in them are of any better quality, in fact most are worse quality.

bhagwad.4281:

Shadow.1345:

bhagwad.4281:

Shadow.1345:

bhagwad.4281:

Shadow.1345:

bhagwad.4281:

Shadow.1345:

bhagwad.4281:

choovanski.5462:

bhagwad.4281:

Haleydawn.3764:

If you don’t want bad profession stacking, or bad players, form a team to queue with. For the second time.
:)

Forming a team is like cheating. It’s an unfair advantage.

Are you joking…

What would you call it if not an unfair advantage over those players who don’t team up? Does teaming up require skill? No. So by definition, the advantage is unfair.

Yes it requires social skills. Also cheating is breaking the rules not just creating an unfair advantage. Speedhacks are cheating, forming a party is not. By your definition all those guys who fought in real wars from fortified positions were cheating.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

If the other side didn’t have fortified positions to begin with, then yes o course it’s cheating. With the difference that in real war, cheating is allowed. Forming a pre-made team going up against non-premades? That’s just a very low thing to do.

No, it’s not cheating because cheating is breaking the rules. War doesn’t have rules so there is no cheating. The game only ques as it ques. Forming a party or not and how it matches you is up to the algorithm not the players pressing the button to que up. This whole notion of it being cheating is based on breaking rules you have artificially created in your own head.

Nuh uh. Let’s look at VoIP chat. The game doesn’t allow that functionality inbuilt does it? So by resorting to an external third party VoIP tool, you are garnering an unfair advantage beyond the confines of the game. Much like a macro.

I guess you’re saying that me using macros to speed things up would be ok then right?

Your premise is flawed on the assumption that having a party means being on VoIP. Which it doesn’t because not everyone partied up is using VoIP.

Still to answer your question is no it’s not cheating. The developers of them game know that people will use VoIP when they party PvP. I mean that’s pretty much a given, duh. As far as using a macro goes. I don’t really see how a macro will help you win at PvP. I mean, it’s pretty much 15 buttons that each do a single thing. If you want to use a macro to execute a combo of those key presses they do have gaming keyboards that have single press programmable macro buttons. Another thing I’m sure the game developers knew existed. I guess you could use it for typing stuff into team chat. I also did see one guy running a macro and it didn’t exactly make him OP.

As far as I am concerned using a macro to speed things up is no more cheating than having a better computer, faster internet connection or using a gaming mouse for better precision and speed.

No, macros are against the Terms and Conditions of Anet – like in the earlier days years ago, I remember thieves used to pull of insane combos too fast for a normal human being to do the same.

And I think it’s pretty clear that if the developers wanted people to talk to one another they would have offered a VoIP service – even for soloq so that teammates can talk to each other.

From a logical point of view, there is no difference between VoIP and a macro. Both are outside the regular tools provided in-game and constitute an unfair advantage.

I have never used macros so I don’t know much about them and them being disallowed in the Terms of Service. As far as VoIP goes them not providing a program for it doesn’t mean it is against the rules, elsewise they would have put that in the ToS as well. Either way QQ more about it scrub, I don’t care.

So basically anything they omit makes it ethical to use? Everyone knew macros were wrong, even before Anet banned people and put it in their terms and conditions. You don’t wait to be explicitly told something before you stop doing it. Sometimes you just do the right thing.

And VoIP is as big – if not more – of an advantage than macros.

Unethical… really? That’s funny. What makes it unethical?

Also, VoIP just cuts out typing but still does the same thing, communication. As far as knowing an increase is coming to a point just take a glance at the radar and see that. Hell most of the time people in VoIP are just talking bullkitten not actual game breaking strategy.

But you know what I think in unfair. Having a better computer and internet connection than me. Being less resistant due to having a better socio-economic position is unethical and unfair. What do you say to that?

bhagwad.4281:

Shadow.1345:

bhagwad.4281:

Shadow.1345:

bhagwad.4281:

Shadow.1345:

bhagwad.4281:

choovanski.5462:

bhagwad.4281:

Haleydawn.3764:

If you don’t want bad profession stacking, or bad players, form a team to queue with. For the second time.
:)

Forming a team is like cheating. It’s an unfair advantage.

Are you joking…

What would you call it if not an unfair advantage over those players who don’t team up? Does teaming up require skill? No. So by definition, the advantage is unfair.

Yes it requires social skills. Also cheating is breaking the rules not just creating an unfair advantage. Speedhacks are cheating, forming a party is not. By your definition all those guys who fought in real wars from fortified positions were cheating.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

If the other side didn’t have fortified positions to begin with, then yes o course it’s cheating. With the difference that in real war, cheating is allowed. Forming a pre-made team going up against non-premades? That’s just a very low thing to do.

No, it’s not cheating because cheating is breaking the rules. War doesn’t have rules so there is no cheating. The game only ques as it ques. Forming a party or not and how it matches you is up to the algorithm not the players pressing the button to que up. This whole notion of it being cheating is based on breaking rules you have artificially created in your own head.

Nuh uh. Let’s look at VoIP chat. The game doesn’t allow that functionality inbuilt does it? So by resorting to an external third party VoIP tool, you are garnering an unfair advantage beyond the confines of the game. Much like a macro.

I guess you’re saying that me using macros to speed things up would be ok then right?

Your premise is flawed on the assumption that having a party means being on VoIP. Which it doesn’t because not everyone partied up is using VoIP.

Still to answer your question is no it’s not cheating. The developers of them game know that people will use VoIP when they party PvP. I mean that’s pretty much a given, duh. As far as using a macro goes. I don’t really see how a macro will help you win at PvP. I mean, it’s pretty much 15 buttons that each do a single thing. If you want to use a macro to execute a combo of those key presses they do have gaming keyboards that have single press programmable macro buttons. Another thing I’m sure the game developers knew existed. I guess you could use it for typing stuff into team chat. I also did see one guy running a macro and it didn’t exactly make him OP.

As far as I am concerned using a macro to speed things up is no more cheating than having a better computer, faster internet connection or using a gaming mouse for better precision and speed.

No, macros are against the Terms and Conditions of Anet – like in the earlier days years ago, I remember thieves used to pull of insane combos too fast for a normal human being to do the same.

And I think it’s pretty clear that if the developers wanted people to talk to one another they would have offered a VoIP service – even for soloq so that teammates can talk to each other.

From a logical point of view, there is no difference between VoIP and a macro. Both are outside the regular tools provided in-game and constitute an unfair advantage.

I have never used macros so I don’t know much about them and them being disallowed in the Terms of Service. As far as VoIP goes them not providing a program for it doesn’t mean it is against the rules, elsewise they would have put that in the ToS as well. Either way QQ more about it scrub, I don’t care.

bhagwad.4281:

Shadow.1345:

bhagwad.4281:

Shadow.1345:

bhagwad.4281:

choovanski.5462:

bhagwad.4281:

Haleydawn.3764:

If you don’t want bad profession stacking, or bad players, form a team to queue with. For the second time.
:)

Forming a team is like cheating. It’s an unfair advantage.

Are you joking…

What would you call it if not an unfair advantage over those players who don’t team up? Does teaming up require skill? No. So by definition, the advantage is unfair.

Yes it requires social skills. Also cheating is breaking the rules not just creating an unfair advantage. Speedhacks are cheating, forming a party is not. By your definition all those guys who fought in real wars from fortified positions were cheating.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

If the other side didn’t have fortified positions to begin with, then yes o course it’s cheating. With the difference that in real war, cheating is allowed. Forming a pre-made team going up against non-premades? That’s just a very low thing to do.

No, it’s not cheating because cheating is breaking the rules. War doesn’t have rules so there is no cheating. The game only ques as it ques. Forming a party or not and how it matches you is up to the algorithm not the players pressing the button to que up. This whole notion of it being cheating is based on breaking rules you have artificially created in your own head.

Nuh uh. Let’s look at VoIP chat. The game doesn’t allow that functionality inbuilt does it? So by resorting to an external third party VoIP tool, you are garnering an unfair advantage beyond the confines of the game. Much like a macro.

I guess you’re saying that me using macros to speed things up would be ok then right?

Your premise is flawed on the assumption that having a party means being on VoIP. Which it doesn’t because not everyone partied up is using VoIP.

Still to answer your question is no it’s not cheating. The developers of them game know that people will use VoIP when they party PvP. I mean that’s pretty much a given, duh. As far as using a macro goes. I don’t really see how a macro will help you win at PvP. I mean, it’s pretty much 15 buttons that each do a single thing. If you want to use a macro to execute a combo of those key presses they do have gaming keyboards that have single press programmable macro buttons. Another thing I’m sure the game developers knew existed. I guess you could use it for typing stuff into team chat. I also did see one guy running a macro and it didn’t exactly make him OP.

As far as I am concerned using a macro to speed things up is no more cheating than having a better computer, faster internet connection or using a gaming mouse for better precision and speed.

bhagwad.4281:

Shadow.1345:

bhagwad.4281:

choovanski.5462:

bhagwad.4281:

Haleydawn.3764:

If you don’t want bad profession stacking, or bad players, form a team to queue with. For the second time.
:)

Forming a team is like cheating. It’s an unfair advantage.

Are you joking…

What would you call it if not an unfair advantage over those players who don’t team up? Does teaming up require skill? No. So by definition, the advantage is unfair.

Yes it requires social skills. Also cheating is breaking the rules not just creating an unfair advantage. Speedhacks are cheating, forming a party is not. By your definition all those guys who fought in real wars from fortified positions were cheating.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

If the other side didn’t have fortified positions to begin with, then yes o course it’s cheating. With the difference that in real war, cheating is allowed. Forming a pre-made team going up against non-premades? That’s just a very low thing to do.

No, it’s not cheating because cheating is breaking the rules. War doesn’t have rules so there is no cheating. The game only ques as it ques. Forming a party or not and how it matches you is up to the algorithm not the players pressing the button to que up. This whole notion of it being cheating is based on breaking rules you have artificially created in your own head.