Guild Wars 2

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Laika.8795:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

One noticeable reason to have caused you to slingshot to the side is having a speed buff when using FS. If that is caused by something else other than that, then it might be a bug. But to validate a bug, the alledge bug must be easily replicated, if not, then it might be caused by some other unknown factor.

So did ANet intend to have speed buffs work against this skill as they do? If not, it’s hardly working as intended.

I’m not trying to be snarky or argumentative, but you’re coming at me running with the assumption that I’ve no idea what I’m doing.

Speed buff aids in the effectiveness of most skills, but can send you careening off path (and thus is a liability) with this skill. Perhaps this is my problem, but I’m not going to change my utilities because something they don’t want to correct.

I’m not saying it doesn’t hit ever, but for fear of losing my target should I roll off course, I’d much rather spend my initiative elsewhere. If that was fixed, perhaps I’d use it more often.

There’s also the issue that Vincent is just running off assumptions as well. The fact that it hasn’t been fixed means nothing. Look at shadow shot – it was a gap closer that rooted the user for MONTHS before it was fixed. It was obviously really dumb to have a gap closer root the user on hit, but it remained that way for a while – it wasn’t a technical limitation (the game already had a dozen skills that teleported a player and DIDNT root them), so what was the hold up?

Maybe some player assumed that it was (for some godawful reason) intended. There were some who assumed it wasn’t. As far as FS is concerned, I’m still assuming that it’s not working as intended, and hopefully it will one day soon be fixed.

Yes, I am running under the assumption that it is working as intended in comparison to what is expected.

The intention of the skill is to evade by spinning then stab-stab. That is accomplished.

Other factors like slingshotting, missing, wrong direction, speed factor, etc. is something else outside the main intention of the skill.

That is why, trying to “fix” FS may not be the fix that is needed.

Your definition is extremely literal and stifling, to the point where its hard not to think there’s some willful disbelief involved.

I doubt Anet designed the skill to simply “Spin and stab stab”, because it’d be useless against moving targets. There has to be some consideration for “target and user are both moving”, since standing still in PvP is a death sentence, and experienced players don’t stand still.

Like I said. That moving target factor may not be directly caused by FS. I suspect that it is something else outside the scope of the skill itself, thus “fixing” this skill may not be fixing the root problem.

Run these tests;
- FS to a Dummy
- FS to an Asura size target
- FS to a Human size target
- FS to a Norn size target
- FS to a Oakheart size target

Add speedbuff, repeat
Then test on target of same size that gives CC (i.e. Norn size Icebrood)

You’ll find that certain target meet the expectations and other targets do not. Since that is the case, I have concluded in my own testing that this issue is beyond the skill itself.

When I say “fix the skill”, I do not literally mean “examine the code that comprises the skills functions (und only that code!) and make it work right”.

I mean “fix whatever the underlying issue is that causes FS to bug out.”

That’s different from what you have been saying, now that you are presented with facts, you change your stance.

As I’ve been saying, you might see that “FS bugs out” but it’s not really FS that bugs. And to prove that is running the test I’ve suggested.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Laika.8795:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

One noticeable reason to have caused you to slingshot to the side is having a speed buff when using FS. If that is caused by something else other than that, then it might be a bug. But to validate a bug, the alledge bug must be easily replicated, if not, then it might be caused by some other unknown factor.

So did ANet intend to have speed buffs work against this skill as they do? If not, it’s hardly working as intended.

I’m not trying to be snarky or argumentative, but you’re coming at me running with the assumption that I’ve no idea what I’m doing.

Speed buff aids in the effectiveness of most skills, but can send you careening off path (and thus is a liability) with this skill. Perhaps this is my problem, but I’m not going to change my utilities because something they don’t want to correct.

I’m not saying it doesn’t hit ever, but for fear of losing my target should I roll off course, I’d much rather spend my initiative elsewhere. If that was fixed, perhaps I’d use it more often.

There’s also the issue that Vincent is just running off assumptions as well. The fact that it hasn’t been fixed means nothing. Look at shadow shot – it was a gap closer that rooted the user for MONTHS before it was fixed. It was obviously really dumb to have a gap closer root the user on hit, but it remained that way for a while – it wasn’t a technical limitation (the game already had a dozen skills that teleported a player and DIDNT root them), so what was the hold up?

Maybe some player assumed that it was (for some godawful reason) intended. There were some who assumed it wasn’t. As far as FS is concerned, I’m still assuming that it’s not working as intended, and hopefully it will one day soon be fixed.

Yes, I am running under the assumption that it is working as intended in comparison to what is expected.

The intention of the skill is to evade by spinning then stab-stab. That is accomplished.

Other factors like slingshotting, missing, wrong direction, speed factor, etc. is something else outside the main intention of the skill.

That is why, trying to “fix” FS may not be the fix that is needed.

Your definition is extremely literal and stifling, to the point where its hard not to think there’s some willful disbelief involved.

I doubt Anet designed the skill to simply “Spin and stab stab”, because it’d be useless against moving targets. There has to be some consideration for “target and user are both moving”, since standing still in PvP is a death sentence, and experienced players don’t stand still.

Like I said. That moving target factor may not be directly caused by FS. I suspect that it is something else outside the scope of the skill itself, thus “fixing” this skill may not be fixing the root problem.

Run these tests;
- FS to a Dummy
- FS to an Asura size target
- FS to a Human size target
- FS to a Norn size target
- FS to a Oakheart size target

Add speedbuff, repeat
Then test on target of same size that gives CC (i.e. Norn size Icebrood)

You’ll find that certain target meet the expectations and other targets do not. Since that is the case, I have concluded in my own testing that this issue is beyond the skill itself.

evilapprentice.6379:

Laika.8795:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

One noticeable reason to have caused you to slingshot to the side is having a speed buff when using FS. If that is caused by something else other than that, then it might be a bug. But to validate a bug, the alledge bug must be easily replicated, if not, then it might be caused by some other unknown factor.

So did ANet intend to have speed buffs work against this skill as they do? If not, it’s hardly working as intended.

I’m not trying to be snarky or argumentative, but you’re coming at me running with the assumption that I’ve no idea what I’m doing.

Speed buff aids in the effectiveness of most skills, but can send you careening off path (and thus is a liability) with this skill. Perhaps this is my problem, but I’m not going to change my utilities because something they don’t want to correct.

I’m not saying it doesn’t hit ever, but for fear of losing my target should I roll off course, I’d much rather spend my initiative elsewhere. If that was fixed, perhaps I’d use it more often.

There’s also the issue that Vincent is just running off assumptions as well. The fact that it hasn’t been fixed means nothing. Look at shadow shot – it was a gap closer that rooted the user for MONTHS before it was fixed. It was obviously really dumb to have a gap closer root the user on hit, but it remained that way for a while – it wasn’t a technical limitation (the game already had a dozen skills that teleported a player and DIDNT root them), so what was the hold up?

Maybe some player assumed that it was (for some godawful reason) intended. There were some who assumed it wasn’t. As far as FS is concerned, I’m still assuming that it’s not working as intended, and hopefully it will one day soon be fixed.

Yes, I am running under the assumption that it is working as intended in comparison to what is expected.

The intention of the skill is to evade by spinning then stab-stab. That is accomplished.

Other factors like slingshotting, missing, wrong direction, speed factor, etc. is something else outside the main intention of the skill.

That is why, trying to “fix” FS may not be the fix that is needed.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

I apologize for the snark then – I did not consider that point of view.

I still disagree however – if the skill is so powerful as to need a nerf, then it needs a nerf. A skill shouldn’t skate by because it’s not functioning properly, and people don’t understand that to be used effectively they have to do something completely counter-intuitive. If what you say is true, you’re helping to contribute to how one note the thief class is in general – instead of more thieves going S/D and being effective, diverse players, we’re mostly going D/P burst because it’s clearly one of the best specs (Since we’re not aware that FS can be jury-rigged into effectiveness.)

You should be encouraging spec diversity, and hoping skills get fixed, not hoping FS continues to go unnoticed because its super powerful but hard to use effectively due to bad implementation.

The problem you’re having is understanding what is intended. FS – “as is” – is what is intended, which is obviously differ from your “expectations”.

So by saying that FS is not working as intended, what you really mean is, it is not working as you expect it.

As I have explained early on in this thread, the tool-tip may be the problem and not the mechanic of the skill.

For instance, they did “fix” this as you would have expect it to function…then you cannot use this skill unless you are IN FRONT of your target. Then a new problem that would need “fixing” arises.

So, as intended for the skill, it is not a guaranteed a strike on the back since it is a FLANKING strike. By GW2’s definition, that is a strike to either the side or the back.

Therefore, FS IS working as intended, but not as you expected it to work.

Well boo hoo, right?

At no point was I complaining at all about my final positioning vis a vis what part of my target I’m facing. I’m not one of those people who says “The skill SAYS it goes to his back, why doesnt it? Waah”. I’m talking about when you target a moving target, and you float far to the right of said target and stab empty space 10-15 feet to your targets side.

tl;dr – I don’t care what facing I’m stabbing, just that I path toward my target and not slightly away.

Doesn’t many other skills have similar behavior?

The intended use of the skill is to allow you to use it even without a valid target, that’s why you can waste your CD being out of range.

Also, as intended, allows a target to move out of the way in a split second without using dodge. Just like how I dodge arrows without actually using dodge, by simply walking back and forth.

So in the game’s perspective, your moving target is moving out of the way and as intended you are to miss them completely.

Trying to make the game predict your expectation will de-value all other mechanics I just mentioned.

If I’m out of range, then I’m out of range – the skill still shouldn’t send me careening off to the side. And although I can’t claim I’ve -never- been out of range when this happened (I’m sure that’s the case sometimes and I just don’t realize it), I’ve used it directly after connecting with a sword swing, and still spun off too the side. There’s something about a moving target that makes the skill bug out sometimes – it’d just be nice if it didn’t do that.

One noticeable reason to have caused you to slingshot to the side is having a speed buff when using FS. If that is caused by something else other than that, then it might be a bug. But to validate a bug, the alledge bug must be easily replicated, if not, then it might be caused by some other unknown factor.

Even with the combination of the speed buff, I would not classify that as a bug.

As for moving target, it is the games way of lead-targetting where the projectile or moving action/skill (like leap) will try to hit the target in a location they expect them to be.

Laika.8795:

The game attempts to compensate by some means, and can send you off course very easily, especially if your target is mobile. It is also known that the skill is modulated by speed buffs, so SoS may cause some of the problems I experience. I’m too lazy to tinker around, tho I may try tonight and make videos (without chalkboard scratches).

Yes, FS is affected by speed buff/debuff.

To say the skill is working as intended, however, is pure naiveté.

As I posted above, it is as intended, which differ from what you have expected (as I mentioned to someone else a bove).

Laika.8795:

Sebrent.3625:

I’m actually confused by adaneshade’s need to turn around to get the stab to work. When I use it I simply have to turn my character to hit with each stab. There is a delay between the two that gives you time to compensate for your movement and your foe’s movement.

The first strike occurs as you are still locked in animation, so it is in no way a matter of turning. The second strike, you get about .25sec to control, but the first strike (if you want the boon rip) is completely reliant on the pathing the game chooses for you…

I did an experiment on this and I updated the Wiki with my findings — that speed buff will slingshot you away and speed debuff will shorten your pathing, meaning spinning in place.

If you think that FS is an lead strike, then you will miss more ofter. Instead, think that it is a follow up strike after you secure that your target is where you want them to be — you’ll find that it is more effective if treated this way.

Sebrent.3625:

If you are trying to close on someone with flanking strike, I can imagine you’re going to miss as that is not a good use of it. I’m on top of my enemy when I use flanking strike on them and I have yet to have a problem hitting with it.

lol, I was posting the same thing

Sebrent.3625:

Steal is relatively fine as is. A Thief stealing from a Mesmer is awesome (for the Thief … sucks for the Mesmer … who doesn’t want every boon in the game? It’s friggin Runes of Lyssa without having to take Runes of Lyssa.

As far as Thieves and stealth … I think the current reveal change could very well be sufficient. With it, anyone fighting a thief knows that they have 3 seconds after that thief pops of stealth, no matter what, before the thief has a chance to re-stealth.

This is a “what if…” thread. Use your imagination and share it.

You actually level faster from level 60 with D/D.

You can gather up the mobs and cripple them. Then just use Death Blossom to stack bleed. Rinse and repeat.

You can even use Dagger Storm for clean up.

S/P is too much a single target weapon set IMO – meaning slower way of leveling up. With D/D, you have access to a lot of AoE skills, which is prefered if you’re leveling up.

EDIT:
The traits would be 0/30/20/0/10. At least, that’s what I used. May differ depending on your playstyle.

D/D ’zerker with Haste.

’nuff said

Adaneshade.2409:

It’s an ok build, just not quite as tanky since you miss out on 300 healing power and 300 toughness. It does provide with more initiative, though, so you have to monitor it less closely.
I fill the role of control tank in my gank squads, locking down targets so our burst can kill them without a struggle. This requires me to be insanely beefy (I can eat a full burst rotation from a berserker GS warrior with little danger of going down for instance)

I’m curious why he choose 0/30/20/20/0 wearing Valkyrie and using D/D.

I think I’m missing something why would he put 30pts in CS. :/

I want the Thief to actual steal something and keeps it.

“I’m sorry, did this belong to you?” (talking about the legendary greatsword)

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

I apologize for the snark then – I did not consider that point of view.

I still disagree however – if the skill is so powerful as to need a nerf, then it needs a nerf. A skill shouldn’t skate by because it’s not functioning properly, and people don’t understand that to be used effectively they have to do something completely counter-intuitive. If what you say is true, you’re helping to contribute to how one note the thief class is in general – instead of more thieves going S/D and being effective, diverse players, we’re mostly going D/P burst because it’s clearly one of the best specs (Since we’re not aware that FS can be jury-rigged into effectiveness.)

You should be encouraging spec diversity, and hoping skills get fixed, not hoping FS continues to go unnoticed because its super powerful but hard to use effectively due to bad implementation.

The problem you’re having is understanding what is intended. FS – “as is” – is what is intended, which is obviously differ from your “expectations”.

So by saying that FS is not working as intended, what you really mean is, it is not working as you expect it.

As I have explained early on in this thread, the tool-tip may be the problem and not the mechanic of the skill.

For instance, they did “fix” this as you would have expect it to function…then you cannot use this skill unless you are IN FRONT of your target. Then a new problem that would need “fixing” arises.

So, as intended for the skill, it is not a guaranteed a strike on the back since it is a FLANKING strike. By GW2’s definition, that is a strike to either the side or the back.

Therefore, FS IS working as intended, but not as you expected it to work.

Well boo hoo, right?

At no point was I complaining at all about my final positioning vis a vis what part of my target I’m facing. I’m not one of those people who says “The skill SAYS it goes to his back, why doesnt it? Waah”. I’m talking about when you target a moving target, and you float far to the right of said target and stab empty space 10-15 feet to your targets side.

tl;dr – I don’t care what facing I’m stabbing, just that I path toward my target and not slightly away.

Doesn’t many other skills have similar behavior?

The intended use of the skill is to allow you to use it even without a valid target, that’s why you can waste your CD being out of range.

Also, as intended, allows a target to move out of the way in a split second without using dodge. Just like how I dodge arrows without actually using dodge, by simply walking back and forth.

So in the game’s perspective, your moving target is moving out of the way and as intended you are to miss them completely.

Trying to make the game predict your expectation will de-value all other mechanics I just mentioned.

evilapprentice.6379:

I apologize for the snark then – I did not consider that point of view.

I still disagree however – if the skill is so powerful as to need a nerf, then it needs a nerf. A skill shouldn’t skate by because it’s not functioning properly, and people don’t understand that to be used effectively they have to do something completely counter-intuitive. If what you say is true, you’re helping to contribute to how one note the thief class is in general – instead of more thieves going S/D and being effective, diverse players, we’re mostly going D/P burst because it’s clearly one of the best specs (Since we’re not aware that FS can be jury-rigged into effectiveness.)

You should be encouraging spec diversity, and hoping skills get fixed, not hoping FS continues to go unnoticed because its super powerful but hard to use effectively due to bad implementation.

The problem you’re having is understanding what is intended. FS – “as is” – is what is intended, which is obviously differ from your “expectations”.

So by saying that FS is not working as intended, what you really mean is, it is not working as you expect it.

As I have explained early on in this thread, the tool-tip may be the problem and not the mechanic of the skill.

For instance, they did “fix” this as you would have expect it to function…then you cannot use this skill unless you are IN FRONT of your target. Then a new problem that would need “fixing” arises.

So, as intended for the skill, it is not a guaranteed a strike on the back since it is a FLANKING strike. By GW2’s definition, that is a strike to either the side or the back.

Therefore, FS IS working as intended, but not as you expected it to work.

Well boo hoo, right?

TheGuy.3568:

As I tried to explain each stealth runs its course ends and then applies the next stealth. the duration seems to stack but that isn’t it each stealth is running its course consecutively. So when they said when stealth ends its applies revealed it could mean as each one ends. Do you understand now? You know what try quick stacking might using stealth and count the time between when you stealth and when the might is applied.

A visual example

Blackpowder-> HS (stealth 1) -> HS (stealth 3) -> HS (stealth 3) = 9 seconds of the same stealth right? Wrong

3 secs of stealth -> End ->Next 3 secs of stealth applies -> End -> Next 3 secs of stealth applies -> End (finally visible)

They said nothing about the end of that first 3 seconds not revealing you. You understand me now?

I think you misunderstood what they said because stealth ends when the buff falls off, not when the stack falls off. As long as you have the stealth icon, stealth never ends, thus no reveal debuff.

Necro or Mesmers first on my kill list in that order. As soon as I disable one of them, even for just a couple of seconds, the better off my group is.

The goal is to disrupt, not kill.

EasymodeX.4062:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It’s called professions, who are proficient on what they do, like um, removing buffs. It’s no cookie cutter, instead what you’re proposing will give birth to a cookie cutter anti-bunker thief.

Last I checked, Anet has attempted to make generally varied builds available to all classes, making the “professions” capable of doing multiple things — well, I might add — not just 1.

Well that is your perception even though it’s not even close to reality.

What’s next? Shadow Refuge that heals as much as Healing Rain? lol

Indeed, what exactly do you think I’m proposing? If I recall correctly, the other poster had proposed the block-penetration. I randomly tossed out a half dozen alternatives and potential alternatives that change less of the existing game.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the simple concepts I tossed around.

What assumption are you talking about?

I have specified the intent of my posts. Rather than “randomly tossed out a half dozen alternatives and potential alternatives " for Thieves, why not look into other profession who can do the better job.

What I’m aiming for is, GW2 is not a one-man-show. Team composition is essential in making your competition a success.

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shemsu.8721:

Actually the BPS + HS combo is the most efficient way to stack stealth. with Infusion of shadow each heartseeker is only 1 init, so you can easily and cheaply get multiple stacks of stealth for a duration much greater than CnD

How does that relate to the discussion?

The claim was;

What do you do now when you miss a BS on D/P? Resealth right? Just have to wait a bit longer now. Is this huge? No, but it does impact D/P somewhat…

But still the “impact” was not explained other than trying to get away for which there are many other alternatives to achieve the same goal other than stealth.

I think Stiv did a better job at explaining it than me.

With that being said, what is your point?

I was the one asking what this “impact” is going to happen to D/P that affects it in some illusionary negative way.

By the way, why is BP+HS combo ridiculous?

I see the problem now. Reading comprehension. That’s not what I’m saying.

Sorry, english isn’t my first language. But I thought you said “I wanted him to explain the ridiculousness of trying to gain stealth using D/P.” Did I interupt this incorrectly?

Yes you did.

The ridiculousness is not the combo, but the steps you have to go thru to reach the same goal, in this case, going into stealth to get away — when you can accomplish the same goal with something else.

I hope that helps. Sorry, no offense intended.

EasymodeX.4062:

Is there a problem with a greater variety of builds capable of performing a job?

That is not what your suggestion is advocating.

Do you want this game to be that cookie-cutter?

It’s called professions, who are proficient on what they do, like um, removing buffs. It’s no cookie cutter, instead what you’re proposing will give birth to a cookie cutter anti-bunker thief.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

EasymodeX.4062:

I’m saying that sharpening the wood sword is an interesting option.

An option that is unnecessary given that there are other tools that can do the job more effectively and efficiently.

Please, do list what “effective, efficient” boon stripping options thieves have.

We were not talking about thieves.

danbuter.2314:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I use traps/venom with P/P…never use signet unless in PvP, for which I don’t use P/P.

So why are you posting here?

You probably don’t use signets because they are underpowered vs traps/venom.

The misconception is that the implication that P/P uses signets — that’s why I post.

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shemsu.8721:

Actually the BPS + HS combo is the most efficient way to stack stealth. with Infusion of shadow each heartseeker is only 1 init, so you can easily and cheaply get multiple stacks of stealth for a duration much greater than CnD

How does that relate to the discussion?

The claim was;

What do you do now when you miss a BS on D/P? Resealth right? Just have to wait a bit longer now. Is this huge? No, but it does impact D/P somewhat…

But still the “impact” was not explained other than trying to get away for which there are many other alternatives to achieve the same goal other than stealth.

I think Stiv did a better job at explaining it than me.

With that being said, what is your point?

I was the one asking what this “impact” is going to happen to D/P that affects it in some illusionary negative way.

By the way, why is BP+HS combo ridiculous?

I see the problem now. Reading comprehension. That’s not what I’m saying.

EasymodeX.4062:

I’m saying that sharpening the wood sword is an interesting option.

An option that is unnecessary given that there are other tools that can do the job more effectively and efficiently.

I use traps/venom with P/P…never use signet unless in PvP, for which I don’t use P/P.

EasymodeX.4062:

If a skill can strip a specific boon, then everyone in their mother will have that skill stapled.

Unless it had a significant cost. Duh.

Mesmers have a utility to swap 3 conditions / boons, but most don’t have it selected. Hmm.

Let’s assume for a minute that a certain skill strips a specific boon and glass Thieves becomes a problem, then what?

Who said that glass Thieves would have access to targeted boon stripping? You could make it a GM trait in the steal line, or Acrobatics for that matter.

Lol@ random assumptions.

Any capability can be tuned. The discussion is whether particular capabilities are relevant to nerfing thief damage output and/or helping to beat bunkers in a balanced manner (separate from whether or not thief damage output should be nerfed or whether or not bunkers need more counters than already exist). It could even be tagged onto a utility with a long cooldown, or cost 10 initiative. Shrug.

What I’m saying is that you are trying to sharpen your wooden sword to cut thru a chain mail rather than thinking maybe you are using the wrong tool.

Laika.8795:

evilapprentice.6379:

though I don’t recall if shadow return circle isnt properly dropped.

It 110% is not.

Another thing that I believe is bugged is when the undead in Arah knocks you down, where it also disables your skills, cancels the shadown return even though the circle is still on the floor. So pressing #2 again after getting up will trigger IS instead.

Shemsu.8721:

Actually the BPS + HS combo is the most efficient way to stack stealth. with Infusion of shadow each heartseeker is only 1 init, so you can easily and cheaply get multiple stacks of stealth for a duration much greater than CnD

How does that relate to the discussion?

The claim was;

What do you do now when you miss a BS on D/P? Resealth right? Just have to wait a bit longer now. Is this huge? No, but it does impact D/P somewhat…

But still the “impact” was not explained other than trying to get away for which there are many other alternatives to achieve the same goal other than stealth.

Laika.8795:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t put points in SA so I never have the problem.

But that stinks that it triggers confusion. :/

If I let a fart slip out too close to a mesmer, I get downed via confusion.

ROFL

I have a collection of mental scars from confusion also using Unload. I didn’t know she didn’t want it in there.

Stiv.1820:

2. There were times where I would be in an outnumbered fight, C&D then withdraw away, then weapon-swap to D/P and after a second or so of being out of stealth, leap into a black powder combo to get stealth again quickly. All that needs to be done here is wait an extra couple seconds. It may allow whoever is chasing me to get a beat on me and give chase, that’s about it.

This is the problem in this thread – using black powder so you can leap thru it to get stealth. That waste of initiative is not something that is affected by the stealth change. If you want to get away, then do what smart thief does, use a Shortbow after CnD.

Shemsu.8721:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

And you can stealth using D/P how?

You should really know a subject before you post on it
to answer your question press 5 then press 2

‘sigh’ I wanted him to explain the ridiculousness of trying to gain stealth using D/P.
What benefit does that combo do other than costing you 9 initiative just to trigger stealth?

Thanks for ruining it.

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789, I am not concerned about what you can and cannot do to avoid a freaking bulls charge. Stop talking to me about it. It’s a moot point.

We all know how to avoid them.

My point is that thieves are now missing their #1 tool to avoid getting bursted by any class. That is chain stealth.

You cannot argue me on this because it is a fact.

It isn’t its situational. So long as you continue it it works otherwise you are subject to a back stab like everyone else. Chaining can also get you killed under certain utils by exposing your crutch play and end up get aoe cc’d and then smashed.

The point means little Chain CND is nerfed but you aren’t defenceless regardless so it is not something to lose sleep over unless you can justify how it is ‘required’ to successfully play a thief and you have not.

In addition it basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.

Yes –
D/D
D/P
S/D
P/D

No-
S/P
P/P
SB

It affects 4 out of 7 weapon sets which is a lot.

How exactly does it affect D/P? :/

I was speaking to the change in mechanic in a general sense and not to CnD by itself.

I was asking how it affect D/P. Never asked anything about CnD.

If you’re argument is the same as the other guy (who misses BS) then that’s just a horrible play of the Thief profession. :/

Pretty much what the other guy said. You miss the BS and or auto. “Miss” as in not getting to target in time, target dodges, aegis, lag, kittened up your combo, what have you.

Not sure how you’re going to argue with that. You’re asking me how it affect D/P and I gave it to you.

If you want to talk about good players vs bad players, we can talk about that too.

That doesn’t affect the weapon set at all since any weapon set can make that claim, yet you excluded some of them.

This is a player’s judgment issue, not a stealth issue.

Uh? I’m not tracking. Are you saying there’s no stealth on a D/P set (I believe we’re just talking about weapon sets and not heal/utilities)?

I’m saying is that S/P can make the same claim, yet you didn’t add it.

I didn’t know you can stealth using S/P…

In my original comment, I replied to someone stating “it [change to reveal debuff] basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.” So I listed every weapon set that has stealth and will be affect by the new change. This is not considering utilties/traits/heal. Nothing more nothing less.

And you can stealth using D/P how?

EasymodeX.4062:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

and please, go roll 25/30/0/0/15 with a zerker ammy (The spec that hits like a truck and is as tough as a wet dollar store napkin, the one I specifically mentioned) and see how quickly you melt when anything sneezes at you. I’m not saying the spec should be tough, but don’t pretend like its not among the glassiest glass cannons in the game.

Why do I have to roll that? That’s a horrible build IMO.

One thing to note about this line of discussion is that the concept of a “bunker buster” build doesn’t have to rely on raw damage output, which is what that glass cannon spec focuses on. That’s a very narrow-minded view.

A bunker buster may only do moderate damage, but if they can strip away all the defenses of a bunker build, then they will bust it.

One of the issues with the premise of this thread is that you are trying to adapt a glass cannon raw damage build to bust bunkers, which isn’t necessarily the right approach. It could be as simple as adding a greater variety of conditions and boon stripping to a thief condition build so that condition removals don’t work as well, combined with a removal of regen. This, on top of some buff to poison’s heal reduction could very well bust any bunker really kitten fast.

The concept that condition damage bypasses armor is already integrated into the game. Naturally the discussion becomes how “easy” it is to remove conditions, and how hard it is to re-apply large stacks. Hence, tuning to the existing condition / removal systems and abilities could easily be a better solution than some “new mechanic” like block-bypass or armor penetration.

One interesting concept is this: targeted boon stripping. There are already many abilities in this game that remove a limited set of conditions (e.g. removes cripple/immob, etc). Why not have a boon strip that -only- removes regen? Or only protection?

This sort of limited + targeted boon strip could be much more balanced / palatable / effective than any wholesale mechanics adjustment.

Edit: Warr GS Arcing Strike could sure as hell use a targeted boon strip, although due to its cooldown I’d say something like Aegis or Fury removal. Removing prot on an 8s cooldown or w/e it was is probably too low.

That way of thinking is how cookie-cutter build started. If a skill can strip a specific boon, then everyone in their mother will have that skill stapled.

Ever realize the reason why there’s a bunker in the first place?

Yes, it’s because of glass cannons that don’t break.

Let’s assume for a minute that a certain skill strips a specific boon and glass Thieves becomes a problem, then what? Ele-bunkers would want a buff too to counter the Thieves? When will it end?

So before it starts, let’s think carefully of the BIG PICTURE. In sPvP YOU ARE NOT ALONE. If your team has no Necro or Mesmer to deal with bunkers, then you have more problem than a Thief not able to bunker bust.

I’m ok with this as long as I can still use BS while revealed as if I am in stealth.

BS should not require stealth IMO — it should switch your skill 1 relative to your position to your locked target. If I’m at the back, stealth or not, BACKSTAB!

So, let’s do that.

Kicking them while they’re down is more fun than stomping.

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789, I am not concerned about what you can and cannot do to avoid a freaking bulls charge. Stop talking to me about it. It’s a moot point.

We all know how to avoid them.

My point is that thieves are now missing their #1 tool to avoid getting bursted by any class. That is chain stealth.

You cannot argue me on this because it is a fact.

It isn’t its situational. So long as you continue it it works otherwise you are subject to a back stab like everyone else. Chaining can also get you killed under certain utils by exposing your crutch play and end up get aoe cc’d and then smashed.

The point means little Chain CND is nerfed but you aren’t defenceless regardless so it is not something to lose sleep over unless you can justify how it is ‘required’ to successfully play a thief and you have not.

In addition it basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.

Yes –
D/D
D/P
S/D
P/D

No-
S/P
P/P
SB

It affects 4 out of 7 weapon sets which is a lot.

How exactly does it affect D/P? :/

I was speaking to the change in mechanic in a general sense and not to CnD by itself.

I was asking how it affect D/P. Never asked anything about CnD.

If you’re argument is the same as the other guy (who misses BS) then that’s just a horrible play of the Thief profession. :/

Pretty much what the other guy said. You miss the BS and or auto. “Miss” as in not getting to target in time, target dodges, aegis, lag, kittened up your combo, what have you.

Not sure how you’re going to argue with that. You’re asking me how it affect D/P and I gave it to you.

If you want to talk about good players vs bad players, we can talk about that too.

That doesn’t affect the weapon set at all since any weapon set can make that claim, yet you excluded some of them.

This is a player’s judgment issue, not a stealth issue.

Uh? I’m not tracking. Are you saying there’s no stealth on a D/P set (I believe we’re just talking about weapon sets and not heal/utilities)?

I’m saying is that S/P can make the same claim, yet you didn’t add it.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Allow me to elaborate (though to be honest, what I’m about to type here exists in this post already in some way shape or form).

Step 1) Reduce thief damage – Mind you, thieves will still have to hit fairly hard (low base HP, medium armor, no protection, no stability, no immune skills), but alter the mechanics that let them hit like trucks in exchange for being as tough as a wet dollar store napkin

To be honest, the answer to “what I’m about to type here exist in this post already in some way shape or form.”

No.

Step 2) With their new reduced burst potential, thieves need some way to actually threaten bunkers – My suggestion was to allow some or all of their attacks to penetrate block, with each ability having its own % of block piercing. I’m not suggesting every ability have 100% block penetration..in fact, I mentioned alot of them would probably be very low (just to allow the application of secondary effects through block).

If thieves are “as tough as a wet dollar store napkin” then even a bunker can sneeze and rip them to pieces.

Again: No.

You are fixing something that is not broken by breaking it and trying to fix it.

The second suggestion (taken from the general tone of the SotG) was more boon stripping/hate.

I can honestly say that you are extremely misinterpreted the message or simply highly exaggerating the necessity for a change.

When you combine the 2 (again, in my interpretation), it makes it so that bunkers can’t just throw up all their best boons asap and block whenever they feel like it – they have to try to counterplay the thief a little bit. Should the bunker throw up some short duration boons to try to bait me to waste Init? When should he use his block to ensure I won’t be able to burst him down through it? Can he throw up some important boons then block to get the thief to blow his init pool doing utter kitten damage just to remove the boons?etc, etc, etc…

meh…your scenario is way off. I’d grab my Mesmer friend and have him strip all the boons so I can burst/spike.

The end.

Not all of us have a friend we can summon whenever a bunker needs busting. Whats the point of a burst class that has trouble with bunkers because they don’t have the tools to beat them? Some classes having better access to boon removal than others is fine, but all classes should have some base level of it.

What’s the point of a bunker class who cannot burst?

You can’t have it all.

and please, go roll 25/30/0/0/15 with a zerker ammy (The spec that hits like a truck and is as tough as a wet dollar store napkin, the one I specifically mentioned) and see how quickly you melt when anything sneezes at you. I’m not saying the spec should be tough, but don’t pretend like its not among the glassiest glass cannons in the game.

Why do I have to roll that? That’s a horrible build IMO.

The lack of boon removal is a pretty recognized issue at this point – maybe you disagree, but I’m not making the issue up out of whole cloth, and Anet agrees.

Anet agreed on what? You can’t even post a quote of what they said.

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789, I am not concerned about what you can and cannot do to avoid a freaking bulls charge. Stop talking to me about it. It’s a moot point.

We all know how to avoid them.

My point is that thieves are now missing their #1 tool to avoid getting bursted by any class. That is chain stealth.

You cannot argue me on this because it is a fact.

It isn’t its situational. So long as you continue it it works otherwise you are subject to a back stab like everyone else. Chaining can also get you killed under certain utils by exposing your crutch play and end up get aoe cc’d and then smashed.

The point means little Chain CND is nerfed but you aren’t defenceless regardless so it is not something to lose sleep over unless you can justify how it is ‘required’ to successfully play a thief and you have not.

In addition it basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.

Yes –
D/D
D/P
S/D
P/D

No-
S/P
P/P
SB

It affects 4 out of 7 weapon sets which is a lot.

How exactly does it affect D/P? :/

I was speaking to the change in mechanic in a general sense and not to CnD by itself.

I was asking how it affect D/P. Never asked anything about CnD.

If you’re argument is the same as the other guy (who misses BS) then that’s just a horrible play of the Thief profession. :/

Pretty much what the other guy said. You miss the BS and or auto. “Miss” as in not getting to target in time, target dodges, aegis, lag, kittened up your combo, what have you.

Not sure how you’re going to argue with that. You’re asking me how it affect D/P and I gave it to you.

If you want to talk about good players vs bad players, we can talk about that too.

That doesn’t affect the weapon set at all since any weapon set can make that claim, yet you excluded some of them.

This is a player’s judgment issue, not a stealth issue.

I don’t put points in SA so I never have the problem.

But that stinks that it triggers confusion. :/

EasymodeX.4062:

Generally speaking the sPvP / esport notion is a sinking ship at this point. There are so many things against its success atm that I can’t begin to list them.

Not another e-sport. I hated it when they did that to GW1, they broke a lot of fun PvE builds.

But that’s for another topic.

evilapprentice.6379:

Allow me to elaborate (though to be honest, what I’m about to type here exists in this post already in some way shape or form).

Step 1) Reduce thief damage – Mind you, thieves will still have to hit fairly hard (low base HP, medium armor, no protection, no stability, no immune skills), but alter the mechanics that let them hit like trucks in exchange for being as tough as a wet dollar store napkin

To be honest, the answer to “what I’m about to type here exist in this post already in some way shape or form.”

No.

Step 2) With their new reduced burst potential, thieves need some way to actually threaten bunkers – My suggestion was to allow some or all of their attacks to penetrate block, with each ability having its own % of block piercing. I’m not suggesting every ability have 100% block penetration..in fact, I mentioned alot of them would probably be very low (just to allow the application of secondary effects through block).

If thieves are “as tough as a wet dollar store napkin” then even a bunker can sneeze and rip them to pieces.

Again: No.

You are fixing something that is not broken by breaking it and trying to fix it.

The second suggestion (taken from the general tone of the SotG) was more boon stripping/hate.

I can honestly say that you are extremely misinterpreted the message or simply highly exaggerating the necessity for a change.

When you combine the 2 (again, in my interpretation), it makes it so that bunkers can’t just throw up all their best boons asap and block whenever they feel like it – they have to try to counterplay the thief a little bit. Should the bunker throw up some short duration boons to try to bait me to waste Init? When should he use his block to ensure I won’t be able to burst him down through it? Can he throw up some important boons then block to get the thief to blow his init pool doing utter kitten damage just to remove the boons?etc, etc, etc…

meh…your scenario is way off. I’d grab my Mesmer friend and have him strip all the boons so I can burst/spike.

The end.

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789, I am not concerned about what you can and cannot do to avoid a freaking bulls charge. Stop talking to me about it. It’s a moot point.

We all know how to avoid them.

My point is that thieves are now missing their #1 tool to avoid getting bursted by any class. That is chain stealth.

You cannot argue me on this because it is a fact.

It isn’t its situational. So long as you continue it it works otherwise you are subject to a back stab like everyone else. Chaining can also get you killed under certain utils by exposing your crutch play and end up get aoe cc’d and then smashed.

The point means little Chain CND is nerfed but you aren’t defenceless regardless so it is not something to lose sleep over unless you can justify how it is ‘required’ to successfully play a thief and you have not.

In addition it basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.

Yes –
D/D
D/P
S/D
P/D

No-
S/P
P/P
SB

It affects 4 out of 7 weapon sets which is a lot.

How exactly does it affect D/P? :/

I was speaking to the change in mechanic in a general sense and not to CnD by itself.

I was asking how it affect D/P. Never asked anything about CnD.

If you’re argument is the same as the other guy (who misses BS) then that’s just a horrible play of the Thief profession. :/

skupuz.6940:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789, I am not concerned about what you can and cannot do to avoid a freaking bulls charge. Stop talking to me about it. It’s a moot point.

We all know how to avoid them.

My point is that thieves are now missing their #1 tool to avoid getting bursted by any class. That is chain stealth.

You cannot argue me on this because it is a fact.

It isn’t its situational. So long as you continue it it works otherwise you are subject to a back stab like everyone else. Chaining can also get you killed under certain utils by exposing your crutch play and end up get aoe cc’d and then smashed.

The point means little Chain CND is nerfed but you aren’t defenceless regardless so it is not something to lose sleep over unless you can justify how it is ‘required’ to successfully play a thief and you have not.

In addition it basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.

Yes –
D/D
D/P
S/D
P/D

No-
S/P
P/P
SB

It affects 4 out of 7 weapon sets which is a lot.

How exactly does it affect D/P? :/

What do you do now when you miss a BS on D/P? Resealth right? Just have to wait a bit longer now. Is this huge? No, but it does impact D/P somewhat…

Um, no. If you miss a BS then you’re horrible. :/

Using stealth to amend your mistake is not what stealth is for. So you admit, that the complaints are really coming from those who are horrible at stealthing that they can miss a BS. >.<’

evilapprentice.6379:

The whole point of my post (and I admit, I could have been way clearer on this)was to reduce Thief burst (All burst actually, but thief is the class I’m most familiar with) without reducing the ability to kill bunkers.

Yes of course.

Allowing a Thief to deal damage thru a block is “to reduce Thief burst " eventhough that blocking is 100% damage reduction, thus an effective anti-burst.

In short: I don’t follow your logic.

Besides, in a coordinated attack, a Necro or Mesmer will strip all protection from a target before the rest of the team burst/spike the target to death.

Authority.6145:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Authority.6145:

Dagger/Dagger Glass Cannon Approach.

VS Bunker

Elementalist

• Elite – Thieves Guild.
• Use Cloak and Dagger at start to get behind them.
• Remember not to open up with standard Basilisk Venom + Steal combo. They will survive it.

You can’t really open with Basilisk if you have the T-Guild.

This is a hit-and-miss using D/D. The effective approach is S/D since you can keep them disabled for a long time in addition to Basilisk. The key is Tactical Strike and Sleight of Hand, plus the boon removal capability of Flanking Strike.

Thanks for noticing my error. Will re-edit it and add more info from your post.

By the way I have been meeting condi rangers. Anything we could do against them with any build?

Also against Rifle Warriors [WTF] information would be appreciated.

I don’t think we can deal with Ele-bunkers and Condi-ranger with the same build, so this is one of those things where I have to rely on others to take care off since it’s not as easy as switching weapons and skills — a complete re-spec is needed.

You can go glass cannon vs bunkers since they dont do that much damage, but against other glass cannon and condi- builds, well, the glass breaks.

Rifle Warriors are easily dealt with using D/P shadow shot and Thieves Guild. They are single target build and easily countered by blindness. If done correctly, you can keep the Warrior blinded until they die capitalizing on your summoned thieves Black Power field also. If they try to burst, simply interrupt it with headshot. Extreme Init-management is required to pull this off though. Wait for the warrior to drop blindness before applying a new one.

Authority.6145:

Dagger/Dagger Glass Cannon Approach.

VS Bunker

Elementalist

• Elite – Thieves Guild.
• Use Cloak and Dagger at start to get behind them.
• Remember not to open up with standard Basilisk Venom + Steal combo. They will survive it.

You can’t really open with Basilisk if you have the T-Guild.

This is a hit-and-miss using D/D. The effective approach is S/D since you can keep them disabled for a long time in addition to Basilisk. The key is Tactical Strike and Sleight of Hand, plus the boon removal capability of Flanking Strike.

Sifu.6527:

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789, I am not concerned about what you can and cannot do to avoid a freaking bulls charge. Stop talking to me about it. It’s a moot point.

We all know how to avoid them.

My point is that thieves are now missing their #1 tool to avoid getting bursted by any class. That is chain stealth.

You cannot argue me on this because it is a fact.

It isn’t its situational. So long as you continue it it works otherwise you are subject to a back stab like everyone else. Chaining can also get you killed under certain utils by exposing your crutch play and end up get aoe cc’d and then smashed.

The point means little Chain CND is nerfed but you aren’t defenceless regardless so it is not something to lose sleep over unless you can justify how it is ‘required’ to successfully play a thief and you have not.

In addition it basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.

Yes –
D/D
D/P
S/D
P/D

No-
S/P
P/P
SB

It affects 4 out of 7 weapon sets which is a lot.

How exactly does it affect D/P? :/

kaqalko.5876:

Now I am running D/D and P/P (mostly PvE – dungeons,dragons) with 0/30(I, VI, XI)/30(V,X,XI)/0/0/10(II) traits like here http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQRAoY6alcmKOHcy9E95Ey2jeqC5JuHGlS1UeFcQA
My questions are:
1. What should I change with this build/skills if I wear a full berserk set (I often replace Assassin’s Signet with Signet of Shadows) because I’ve read that combination of both D/D and P/P is not viable but, unfortunately, I just do not like using SB. D/P , S/P or P/D then?

I ran that set (d/d, p/p) for a while and while it was fun, it’s not good enough. I now run a S/D, P/P since it’s the most flexible and has the damage when I need it. As for the build, you have to accommodate with weapon switching, thus IMHO, 30/30/0/0/10 is better.

Healing:
I personally think that Signet of Malice is garbage. So I would recommend to stick with Hide in Shadows.

Signet:
As for signet, Signet of Agility is necessary, not just for the passive, but also for the activated ability. So keep that.

Utility:
Shadow Refuge and Venom. You can rotate this with anything depending on the situation.

Elite:
Basilisk Venom.

2. What sigils/runes/orbs are adviced? I use Bloodlust and Force sigils and Ruby orbs and exquiste ruby jewels now but I am thinking of changing orbs for Divinity runes and Bloodlust sigils for Accuracy ones – is it a good idea?

Thank you for your attention and of course if you have any other suggestions please write them.

Bloodlust is good at leveling but useless in bossfights where the chance of you shredding your stacks is very high.

So use a more constant damage increase.

Sigil:
5% damage (x2)

Runes:
Thief, Rage, or Strength

The reason for this rune is to take advantage of Thrill of the Crime .

Laika.8795:

Adaneshade.2409:

Refer to my post above for the shadowstep/steal less solution.

It’s pretty asinine to require you to about-face to accomplish what it’s supposed to do. No matter how much you want to say it’s a L2Play issue, the fact is, if I press 3 when I’m behind my target, and my toon attempts to “flank” by rolling to the front, it’s a failure to adhere to what the tool-tip suggests.

It may be a work-around, yes, but it is something that should be addressed.

This is my beef with this skill also, but it is not “a failure to adhere to what the tool-tip suggests” in as much as the tool-tip’s failure to describe the skill properly.

The skill is an “attempt” to flank your target, thus it has a chance to fail if your target is mobile, or huge, or you have a speed buff, or you’re slowed.

To be honest, I have no problem with the mechanic of the skill, but it should be renamed as Evading Strikes, or Spinning Strike.

I think that it’s a bit laziness in Anet side to name this skill Flanking Strike given that there’s also a trait with similar name.

P/P for PvE with Vampiric Runes and max Crit Strikes (Pistol Mastery & Executioner a must).

Then just pew pew away.

That’s just the backbone of the build and you can freely optimize it to your heart’s content.

swinsk.6410:

Adaneshade.2409:

Point still stands, anyone clueless enough to make that argument shouldn’t even be posting in thief forums.

Congrats on winning the spelling bee though :-P

It’s not an arguement, it’s a fact. This nerf seriously affects the survivability of this class.

So far the best suggestion is to respec to D/P and use blinding powder for the loss of survivability.

You are yet to prove your ground that the upcoming “nerf” is a loss of survivability.

swinsk.6410:

Adaneshade.2409:

I’ve never run out of init, and I’ve fought for 10 minutes in a single duel before. Simply don’t use that much for infiltrator’s strike, init regens faster than ya use it.

I would hope in a duel you don’t run out of init.

because we all care about duels here…

You only ran out of Init if you try to avoid every possible damage that you would sustain. That’s a wrong way to play a thief. Often times, you need to gamble and take some hits to deal the maximum amount of damage possible. In my experience, I’m always on top in a duel situation and the only stealth skill I use is Hide in Shadows.

Inf Strike/Shadow Return drives anyone bonkers when dueling with a thief.

ensoriki.5789:

Adaneshade.2409:

ensoriki.5789:

Got no problem with it.
Lol at dodging Eviscerate with Flanking strike. Oh I bet dat war was mad as hell. Feels good man. I would like if it removed a 2nd boon on the final hit but that’s just me.
Only thing with S/D is the off-hand ain’t that great right now. Dancing daggers doesn’t pull as much weight, but other then that it’s quite fine. Flanking strike is hardly what is holding it back.

I dunno, having that ranged snare has prevented a couple of escapees in the past. Quite frequently after a warrior will do his “wilson charge” GS bit I’ll follow with infiltrators strike to close the gap then nail them with dancing dagger’s snare to get back on them.

It also provides kills. The reality however that doesn’t change the statement. Dancing dagger does not pull as much weight on the other skills on your bar “But other then that it’s quite fine”.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

err, CnD -> Tactical Strike “ain’t that great”? With Flanking Strike, you can be a really annoying Thief compliment with Sleight of Hands.

“Dancing daggers doesn’t pull as much weight, but other then that it’s quite fine.”
Reading the sentence that followed, explaining the train of thought would’ve saved you this post.

That sentence contradicts your prior sentence thus I ignored it in favor of stating your baseless opinion about “the off-hand ain’t that great " comment.

Just like other 4th-slot weapon skill, the skill is a utility rather than a source of damage (i.e. Pistol 4th skill – Headshot). Even then, Dancing daggers still hits harder incomparison to other 4th-slot weapon skills and has a potential of hitting the same target more than once.

ensoriki.5789:

Got no problem with it.
Lol at dodging Eviscerate with Flanking strike. Oh I bet dat war was mad as hell. Feels good man. I would like if it removed a 2nd boon on the final hit but that’s just me.
Only thing with S/D is the off-hand ain’t that great right now. Dancing daggers doesn’t pull as much weight, but other then that it’s quite fine. Flanking strike is hardly what is holding it back.

err, CnD -> Tactical Strike “ain’t that great”? With Flanking Strike, you can be a really annoying Thief compliment with Sleight of Hands.