Guild Wars 2

I’m debating whether I should care or not…the topic just reeks with sarcasm.

swinsk.6410:

First, I changed falling damage+blind powder to fleet shadow. I feel like with a stealth build like this the 50% movement speed is going to help you land back stabs way easier or get you out of trouble way quicker. The 50% falling damage is too situational for me to carry around all the time and a good player will avoid getting trolled and you won’t get points. The stealth speed gives you insane abiltiy to position correctly after bp+hs.

You only want to use falling damage+blind powder if you are initiating an ambush from above since it allows you to fall from an undetectable height and grants a free stealth when you hit the ground.

Second, to compliment the increased stealth speed I dropped signet of shadows. I use it sometimes in wvw for simply running across the map but it is actually faster to dodge roll, spam HS while swiftness is up and dodge roll again. Swiftness makes heartseeker move further. I only use SoS to be lazy. I kept shadowstep/inf signet for having 2 stun breaks. I rarely have to use both, but sometimes it does save my life. The reason I rarely use inf signet is because I have shadow shot. I only use the inf signet if everything else is down and I need to break a stun or teleport somewhere with low init.

In WvW, it is foolish to waste endurance and initiative for a minor movement boosts.

The last thing, which I think is the thing that makes this build so effective, is the runes. I changed to rage runes for additional time with fury. As Yishis pointed out when he has fury up he was hitting backstabs with crit way more often and auto-attacks do much better damage. So with the fury duration+fury on hit for 30s you are able to pump out some great dps. Your sustainable DPS increases significantly with rune which compliments the superior defenses the build has.

If your DPS stretches for 30s, you’d already be dead. The window in most cases is 4s since you cannot stealth for that amount of time after hitting a back-stab, so you should be doing as much damage as possible before going to stealth again.

But I agree that I wouldn’t take Sigil of Rage either, since after the quickness nerf, 3s of quickness is just one more auto-attack.

Devata.6589:

With strong I mainly mean that the combination of very fast and invisible makes them very hard to kill, besides that they can do a lot of damage however there are things you can do against that.

You are putting two things into one here.

As a thief, we are to pick either “a lot of damage” or “the combination of very fast and invisible makes them very hard to kill.” Believe me, if you read this forum thoroughly, you’ll find that we’ve been trying to achieve both, but it’s just not possible.

We always have to make a trade off.

But in addition there is also a bug that makes them even harder to kill for a lot of professions / builds.

The problem is that invisibility also makes thief’s invulnerable for multiple attacks.

An example is all ranges attacks that bow’s have, like Point Blank Shot and Rapid Fire. The AoE work but the normal range attack wont work.

Point Blank Shot may not work all the time but Rapid Fire hits everytime if you started the attack before the thief goes on stealth.

You probably thinking that we’re not taking damage because we can heal while in stealth. Hide in Shadows is a Thief heal skill that removes damaging conditions and grants health regen. Shadow Refuge also heals per tick. A trait called Shadow’s Rejuvenation also heals us in stealth.

Therefore, it seems that this is just a perception issue and not a legitimate bug.

The problems / bug seems to be in the fact that there is no target and the system/game can’t handle this.

This is not a bug but a game mechanic and the system/game can handle this.

The whole idea behind invisibility is that it is harder to damage them or do something against there attacks because they are invisible, but this problem now even makes them invulnerable (for some attacks) even if you use the correct skill on the correct moment or you do shoot correct at the invisible thief.

You are misusing the word “invulnerable” in describing something that is untargettable.

They will just notice that they almost never get interrupted when they finish somebody in stealth)

Another perception issue. There are many factors that can prevent interruption especially in a group fight. Blind, Aegis, Stability, etc. are some that comes to mind.

I did find out this bug because when a thief is finishing somebody you pretty much know where he is however the Point Blank Shot never ever works and Thunderclap also never works when a thief tried to finish me.

Again, blind, aegis, stability, etc.

Personally I also think that the combination speed and invisibility makes them to good at getting away. It makes it to easy for a thief to try and back-stab and if they see it does not work (they lose the fight) they can use a combination of speed and invisibility to get out of the fight. Something that does not really seems fair as you should have the possibility to attack the person that attacks you. However adding the partially invulnerability to it really makes it to much. (for some builds / professions)

You do have the 4s window to kill a thief who back-stabbed you. In case that the stealth wears off naturally, we can go back in stealth again since stealth that ends normally do no penalize us with the Revealed debuff.

Some professions / builds will not have this problems others do.

Every profession has to deal with something when fighting certain professions.

Your concern seems to be driven by lack of understanding and misinformation about the Thief profession. All of your issues are driven from your own perspective and it is one-sided since you never bother to investigate the underlying cause of what you think to be is the problem.

It it nice to hear your side of the issue, but try not to jump into conclusions only having your perception as your sole basis to your concerns. You also need to take into account the various “fixes” that was already implemented to the Thief profession that most of them are simply inadequate in fixing whetever issue Anet see needs fixing. In other words, we don’t need another unsubstantiated, unjustified “fixes.”

Thank you for sharing your concern and I’m sure that Anet have read this or already have this issue in their internal discussion and debates. But let’s not try to condemn a profession simply based on your inconclusive evidence.

It’s not hard to keep an area contested and one doesn’t need to be a thief.

Besides, he’d be a really bad thief is he gets caught too easy.

You can walk up to a mob unstealth and hit them with CnD. Even if they noticed you, they will stare at the location where they’ve last seen you. So yes, that’s one way.

Even if you use Steal, you still need to use CnD to go in stealth.

In PvP, shadowstep is a must.

The Thief and his son lying on the grass one night admiring the cloudless sky.

The son asked, “Dad, ever wonder what those sparkly dots up there?”
“Son, I don’t wonder I know,” said the Thief with a mug face, “those are daddy’s missing daggers.”

randomfightfan.4091:

JonathanSharp.7094:

randomfightfan.4091:

In that case when do we PvE thieves get our 3s revealed debuff back?

Maybe so. We’re debating it.

THANK YOU! I’ll have to e-hug you if that happens. I’ll actually get to enjoy playing my thief in pve again I loved the smoothness of the class before and now we might be getting it back!

I’d love to see the details of this debate since I’d like to know what is the current road block.

IMO, we should have gotten a Surprise Attack buff when attacking from stealth that gives quickness for 3s instead and keep Revealed debuff in PvP when the Thief is revealed out of stealth when they get hit multiple times while in stealth (i.e. AoE damage).

But to be honest, I’d rather see a quality of life improvements for Theives like Pistol skills, Shadow Step, most dual weapons skills, etc. while they are debating stealth.

Quxudais.5142:

I rolled a thief to try it out, I love the weapon skills and the abilities seem interesting but I can’t seem to take any hits at all. I’m only level 9 granted, but it seems fighting most things even just one on one ends with me at half health at best if I melee.

I use my dodges, I use my evasive attacks, but it seems I run out of any way to evade things well before I kill my target and anything with a ranged attack just eats me alive since you can’t avoid projectiles without using “dodge”. Even ones that clearly miss as far as the animation goes seem to hit unless a dodge is used.

I also play Tera, so perhaps I’m simply to used to actively being able to avoid things by actually getting out of the way rather then having avoiding attacks be completely reliant on abilities. That said, it just feels so very clunky I figure I must be missing something.

I’m currently using sword/dagger and shortbow.

You are correct. You have to actively move in order to prevent damage.

Also take note of your enemy’s weapon in melee.

Large weapons are typically slow and easy to avoid without dodging.

Small weapons doesn’t must be used in a closer range compare to a Greatsword, so to avoid those, all you need to do is to back step out of reach.

Small ranged weapons like shortbow or pistol are more accurate than longbow due to their medium range. So all you need to do is either walk up to the target or shadowstep.

Large ranged weapons like rifle and longbows are dodgable without using dodge by simply staggering left and right until you’re close enough for shadow step.

And as a low level, don’t forget to buff with food and tools. If you can find a guild banner and players using AoE buffs, the better. Also use the boosts you get as rewards.

Other than that, simply play smart.

There was also this bug in one of my dungeon runs where we keep on wiping on Kholer because someone in my party said that’s how you suppose to kill him after the recent patch.

So we went with that plan and after a while, pieces of my armor starts disappearing and after a while I was naked.

What The Eff is that all about?

I don’t think having both Sigil and Runes to extend duration are cummulative in effect.

Unlike Conditions, Control Effect can only be extended upto 33%. So having both Sigil and Runes, the game will only take into account the largest extended duration and not both.

One way to test this is;
1) Unequip items with runes and sigil
2) Equip the sigil. Note the duration.
3) Equip the runes. Note the duration.

Now Equip the runes first, then the sigil noting the duration.

I’m currently not in the game so I can’t test this, but I am almost positive that the duration will not change if you equip the runes first before the sigil.

I hope your findings answers your question.

I’m curious if you have isolated each item to see which one actually gives the +1s bonus duration.

If you are correct that it is from the Sigil, then you just found a bug since Daze and Stun are completely different thing. So why would a Stun Sigil work on a Daze skill.

Unless you are mistaken, maybe we don’t have a bug but instead the +1s on duration actually coming from the Runes and not from the Sigil.

Note:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daze
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun

Kandi.3701:

I don’t see mobs in pve ivent Cursed Shore, but i see warrior (and other players) who farming mobs.

Yeah Curse Shore was really bad last night.

I can see all the flashy effect from spells, that I know there’s a fight just right in front of me, but I cannot see the Mob nor the players fighting it until I get into melee range — with Staff Elementalist. :/

Whatever happen to the “temp” model? Why isn’t that available outside WvW?

I care little about the downed state since I rather not to go down in the first place.

ensoriki.5789:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

ensoriki.5789:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

IMHO, the only reason mug exist in almost every build is not directly mug’s fault since it is the only one that makes sense to trait for at that trait level.

Leave mug as is instead fix the other choices so there’s actually something to choose from.

The reason it exists in every build is because your damage without it as a burst oriented build is put under scrutiny and it’s very efficient at what it does partially as a result of being instant. Back fighting and Venom might are fine traits. Corrosive Traps is actually quite good, the issue is bringing traps in the first place.

Are you agreeing with me because that’s exactly what I just said?

Describing the other choices as “fine” and “quite good” says a lot about those alternatives.

When do positive statements imply anything negative?
Mug is “too good” similar to quickness before the nerf, but like quickness if it gets nuked. It’s instantaneous damage that can at times go for 5+k damage.
There isn’t anything wrong with the traits I mentioned before.
However like the nerf to quickness/haste, if they hit Mug you’ll likely see more builds phase out because they’re not able to put out enough meaningful damage in required time-frames.

All I’m saying is Mug being nerfed makes a lot of sense granted what it is, but nerfing it considering the current state of the thief won’t really be helping overall balance and diversity in any format (at least for us thieves) in the immediate short-term unless they’re pushing their longer objectives with that nerf. I doubt they’d do so however since they’ll likely justify that a mug nerf requires observing how the thief plays in all 3 formats post-nerf before making changes…

Even if Mug got hit by the nerf bat, my point is, it is still the best among the other choices — unless — they improve the other traits to be more flexible than limiting.

ensoriki.5789:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

IMHO, the only reason mug exist in almost every build is not directly mug’s fault since it is the only one that makes sense to trait for at that trait level.

Leave mug as is instead fix the other choices so there’s actually something to choose from.

The reason it exists in every build is because your damage without it as a burst oriented build is put under scrutiny and it’s very efficient at what it does partially as a result of being instant. Back fighting and Venom might are fine traits. Corrosive Traps is actually quite good, the issue is bringing traps in the first place.

Are you agreeing with me because that’s exactly what I just said?

Describing the other choices as “fine” and “quite good” says a lot about those alternatives.

It is admirable to see that Anet have solved the culling issue in WvW, but it seems that the culling issue in other part of the game were ignored.

During dynamic event events, especially those when fighting a dragon, a large number of players shows up to participate. One particular even when culling is really bad is the 2nd phase of Claw of Jormag where Ice Pillars goes invisible and killing a lot of players due to frost/chill DoT. On top of that, literally, we were being bombarded by Ice Elementals that we cannot see from behind. Again prolonging the fight, not because of our mistake or something we overlooked, but instead due to the mobs we simply do not see.

So my question is, what is the recommended settings that allows us to see EVERYTHING? Because no matter what setting I choose, it doesn’t solve the issue of invisible mobs or structures.

Addressing the culling issue in WvW is a big step in the right direction and I would like to know when will this feature going to be extended to the rest of Tyria? But if this is already been extended, what is the prefered setting? Maxing everything out doesn’t solve it either.

Thank you.

IMHO, the only reason mug exist in almost every build is not directly mug’s fault since it is the only one that makes sense to trait for at that trait level.

Leave mug as is instead fix the other choices so there’s actually something to choose from.

I feel bad for those who are leveling thieves after all the updates.

I cannot accurate say that I know what you’re going thru since I was leveled up with my Thief way before Anet screwed with our profession, and just about any builds worked because stealth gave me the necessary breather when I needed it.

I would assume that without the aggro drop from stealth, our PvE survivability is severely crippled, if not broken. Even with my traits and gears, when I go back sicdekicking, I can tell that something is wrong in the low level areas.

Let’s change gear for a second so instead of trying to count how many Unloads can you do, by sacrificing a lot of DPS for Init gain, and focus on calculating how much damage is done per Init spent.

Basically, how much Damage does 5 Inits worth?

The only condition I like to stack and maintain is Vulnerability. It’s cheap because I don’t need much of Condition Damage and stacking Condition Duration instead.

The build is 25/30/0/0/15, main weapon set: S/D, heal: HiS, utilities: Scorpion Wire, Skale Venom, SoS, elite: BV, rune set: Lyssa, sigils: Peril, armor set: Berserker.

The build’s goal is simple, the more Vulnerability stacks, the more damage you make — viable in both solo and group settings, especially vs world bosses.

If you like Withdraw as your heal skill then you would like the Vampiric Rune set.

And if you have main hand daggers using HiS, you’ll love the heal you get after a backstab.

Taril.8619:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Taril.8619:

~snip~
and hit with the highest damage roll from weapon damage with a dagger you get:
~snip~

Pistol has the highest damage roll.

I’m aware Pistol has the highest damage roll.

I was referencing actually getting the highest roll possible with a dagger (Since it gets benefit from the 5% damage with daggers trait whereas the pistol doesn’t because a pistol isn’t a dagger)

That said the same build (Swapping out the 7% crit when flanking trait for 10% pistol damage) using Pistol on the same target would be:

1029 * (2269 + 250 + 770) * (1.5 * 2.03) * 1.95 / 1800 = 11164

Which would cause more damage at the cost more usefulness, yay!

With this you’d be able to maximise your Mug damage at the cost of Backstab (Possibly also CnD if going P/P for maximum possible glassy no defence build, or for utilising a Pistol Power/Crit build since P/D favours conditions)

lol @ sarcasm

I’m afraid that this may be used as an excuse to nerf Mug to beyond usefulness. :/

Taril.8619:

~snip~
and hit with the highest damage roll from weapon damage with a dagger you get:
~snip~

Pistol has the highest damage roll.

Scootabuser.4915:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Bunmaster.9734:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Bunmaster.9734:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The damage from P/P is not from Unload alone. You have to couple it with condition damage also — atleast 25pts in DA. I used to run with 25/30/0/0/15, P/P and D/D build.

Then you should also know that +10% also applies to your daggers. P/P + 10% dmg is still inferior to D/D + 10% dmg.

That’s not really a good comparison since P/P used for the first half of the target’s HP and D/D for the last half. Unload + condition damage will do the job very well in bringing the HP down to 50%, then switch to D/D where Heartseeker shines.

You should not narrow your views into one weapon set, rather expand it that having both P/P and D/D allows us to play as if we have a D/P or P/D weapons sets also.

I carry all weapons 24/7 (3 pistols, diff sigils) switch out weapons according to the situation presented. P/D is the one i never use because i am not condition specced. I use the 25/30/0/15/0 build, since it is versatile enough to accommodate pretty much every weapon combo. I flip my traits +10% pistol dmg, dual skill crit + dmg, spam some unload when such a situation present itself, decent, not impressive.

Of all the weapon sets i use, P/P is the least used. I’d say those, who specced P/P or any weapon set only, are the narrow-minded ones. And i am not bashing P/P itself, but comparing it to other sets, it is subpar.

That’s the problem. P/P is not suppose to be compared to other weapon set because each set has different purpose. Using P/P on a target with <50% health is not as effective as using D/D, and using D/D on a target with >50% health is not as effective as using P/P.

What the actual kitten just happened here.

Your not seriously trying to say that P/P does more damage then D/D when the mob is above 50% health?

Your not implying that any D/D Thief EVER uses heartseeker?

I hope your trolling cause there is no facepalm big enough…

I never said “P/P does more damage then D/D when the mob is above 50% health”.

What I said was, “using D/D on a target with >50% health is not as effective as using P/P” simply because using Heartseeker on that target is just a waste of Init.

It would cost about 9 initiatives for Heartseeker (3x) to deal as much damage as one Unload for 5 initiatives to a target with >50% HP.

I am comparing the effectiveness of “Damage Per Initiative Spent” and see which set is better in that situation, thus I posted what I posted. There’s no troll here.

Anubarak.3012:

Hey

Just a short question… someone told me Hidden Killer has a chance to increase the damage of Critical hits… well I dont really believe that anyway I would like to know if this is true

There was a discussion about a 10k Mug and in my opinion this is impossible in sPvP. I was told this is because of the Hidden Killer dmg increase.
So can anyone please help me? Is 10k Mug possible and how exactly works Hidden Killer?

thanks

Hidden Killer always Crits and allows a thief to compound multiple damage bonuses, as follows;

Weapon Dmg Bonus:
Backstab deals double damage from behind (or side).

Improves Base Dmg:
+ x% Dmg (Item + Buff + Consumable)
+ 10% Dmg (Trait – First Strikes)
+ 5% Dmg (Trait – Dagger Training)

Improves On Hit Dmg:
+ 10% Dmg (Trait – Exposed Weakness)
+ 5% Dmg (Trait – Flanking Strikes)
+1% Dmg per stack Vulnerability on target

Improves Crit Dmg:
+ 150% Base Crit Dmg (Higher the Dmg is, the higher the Base Crit Dmg becomes)
+ x% Crit Dmg Bonus (Items + Buff + Consumable)
+ 30% Crit Dmg Bonus (Critical Strike)

So yeah, in a perfect circumstances, that single backstab will hurt. However, Hidden Killer will not directly increase your damage, instead it give you 100% Critical Hit Chance where you can add your Crit Dmg to your actual damage.

Since Mug can also Crit, the bonuses also apply, but whether a 10k Mug is true or not, I believe it is possible.

risrr.2563:

2. Hidden Thief (2s of stealth when stealing) doesn’t stop attacking if I’m just auto-attacking (first attack slot with daggers) unless I let my toon finish all 4 attacks of the chain. It’ll just continue to auto-attack a backstab from in front and pull me out of stealth immediately.

Keep in mind that the 3rd swing in most melee weapons are flashy, meaning it has casting time. If you activate Steal during that time, you will trigger stealth before the swing hits. This is also true with projectiles (bullets from pistol, bouncing arrows and daggers, etc.) that if you activate stealth before the damage is dealt, you will be kicked out of stealth.

Steal doesn’t activate auto-attack and it stops auto-attacks when you steal. However, in the case of the dagger, the attacks are happening so fast that it is sometimes hard to identify whether Steal stopped the auto-attack or not.

Sifu.6527:

~sinp~

Joh Sharp:

~snip~

As Allie said, we want to be careful to balance their WvW/PvE potential against their PvP potential, and then inside of PvP, we have to be careful to watch how they perform at high ranks vs. low ranks.

~snip~

Please take a good look at GW1 and please learn from it.

Trying to balance something in different situation i a VERY BAD THING!

You already have different rules in place when it comes to PvP and PvE (i.e. Stun duration), so why not expand that and make the skills function differently in WvW, PvP, and PvE — high rank, low rank?

Stop changing it accross the board, it’s just not healthy for the game. It’s not cheap to keep changing gears just because you messed up.

I am coming to a point that I won’t care anymore.

Arganthium.5638:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Arganthium.5638:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

One problem: What about your other weapon set?

Main: S/P or S/D or D/P

They don’t seem to benefit from this build at all. :/

Oh, sorry, I think you might have misunderstood Sword- and Dagger- based builds are usually my specialty, that’s what I was referring to. The build here runs P/P and SB.

Got it. I thought you’re replacing your SB with P/P.

Interesting build, I might try it out. Although, there’s too much survivability IMO so the DPS seems to suffer a lot.

No, P/P is the main set, SB is the backup/utility.

It depends on how you spec. As I mentioned in some of my posts, I run a 0/0/20/30/20 build usually, but I end up dealing tons of damage simply because I run zerker gear.

At the first half of target’s HP, this build works well. But at the second half (<50% HP), it struggles big time. It just cannot finish what it started.

Most of passive defensive mechanisms triggers at <50% and the lack of extra oomph from Executioners trait makes it suffer and having SB as your 2ndary weapon set doesn’t help the situation.

Using this build makes me itchy and left me wondering where’s my Hearthseeker and +20% dmg from Executioner?

With 25/30/0/0/15 on a Berserker set, I can Unload for a minimum of 4.5k upto 7k (due to high crit chance), normalizing around 5.8k – 6.3k first half and around 6k-7k at the second half.

The low crit chance on your build is not taking advantage of the Crit Dmg from ’zerker set.

I admire the survivability, but I am doubtful about “dealing tons of damage simply because I run zerker gear” where the word “tons” is highly exaggerated. :/

Arganthium.5638:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

One problem: What about your other weapon set?

Main: S/P or S/D or D/P

They don’t seem to benefit from this build at all. :/

Oh, sorry, I think you might have misunderstood Sword- and Dagger- based builds are usually my specialty, that’s what I was referring to. The build here runs P/P and SB.

Got it. I thought you’re replacing your SB with P/P.

Interesting build, I might try it out. Although, there’s too much survivability IMO so the DPS seems to suffer a lot.

One problem: What about your other weapon set?

Main: S/P or S/D or D/P

They don’t seem to benefit from this build at all. :/

Bunmaster.9734:

This a game, not real life. In-game mechanics, you need to compare the available sets in order to get the best use out of them. I don’t claim P/P is worthless, just ok and more situational than the other sets we have available.

I was actually using a game (Black Ops) as a reference, but whatever.

I’ll just have to respect your opinion.

Bunmaster.9734:

You have compare weapon sets with each other, then what is the point of having multiple weapon sets? Each set has it’s own use, if you don’t compare them and use them when they are the strongest. Might as well stick to 1 weapon set.

But you realize that you’re comparing a dagger to a 9mm pistol right? Where the dagger is more precise and deals more damage where the pistol can get lucky and kill someone.

Laika.8795:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The condition removal in SA requires you to be in Stealth and only happen after 3s if you are still in Stealth. Hardly a comparison to HiS.

We’re this late into the game and this fallacy still abounds? Shadow’s Embrace Instantly removes 1 condition upon entering stealth and continues to do so every 3 seconds.

Sorry I didn’t proof read that response. I stand corrected.

What I meant to say was, in an active engagement, it’s not efficient to stay in stealth for the full duration just to remove conditions, because during that time, your opponent is also rejuvenating. On top of that, if you let stealth to expire, you lose the opportunity to sneak ataack. Therefore in this situation, instead of putting points to SA, you can just put the point where it will give you more damage and use HiS instead.

The comparison I’m trying to make is the cost of HiS vs the cost of Shadow’s Embrace.

But let’s just say that you are spec-ing SA anyway, isn’t more the reason to use HiS because you’ll be removing more conditions that way?

That means with the 4 seconds in stealth, you clear 2 conditions and can heal 2x more.

True, but the 4s stealth only applies if you are not planning on using stealth to sneak attack. Also, before going in stealth, you need to use withdraw first to remove CC, otherwise SE may remove a non-damaging condition instead — while with HiS, it removes the damaging condition regardless on what other conditions you have.

I feel like HiS is a vastly inferior heal, subject to interrupts and just on too long of a CD to be worthwhile.

In terms of base heal, I agree. But in term of effective health restoration, it’s the best.

Effective health restoration comes into account because it removes DoTs.

Withdraw may heal for more base heal, but it can’t do anything about the DoTs. So if the DoTs on you are ticking for 200dmg/s, in 5 seconds, your effective health restoration is reduced by 30%.

If someone interrupts my HiS, then kudos to them for being skillful and it’s an honor to die in their hands. But if you really want a safe HiS, just CnD first, at least that’s what I do.

EDIT: plus, unless you’re already traited in Shadow’s Embrace, you’re not clearing any conditions like immobilize/cripple, so you may be stealthed, but any enemy worth their salt will know you’re probably still right there and continue wailing away on you.

True. That’s the trade off. But if you’re really concern about it, you can always bring Roll for Initiative. IMO CC is not a concern compares to DoTs.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Short and to the point – currently in PvP, S/D’s hardest hitting moves (Crippling strike, second swing of FS) are extremely easy to see coming- even with AA off and attempting to time my swings, I tend to watch players dodge these attacks whenever they can afford to. They do this because its a big chunk of sword DPS, and you can see them coming a mile away.

For both AA and FS, the other swings have the same timings, so why not just average the damage across all the swings?

Sword swings are too slow that you can perform FS in between swings to be less predictable…oops, I said too much.

I fail to see how using FS in the middle of Sword AA (Which in effect delays or sacrifices crippling strike entirely) would make the second swing of FS any less predictable – I suppose you could FS Mid crippling strike (after they’ve dodged), but that doesn’t really change much.

I think you got things mixed up. The second strike of FS is not Crippling Strike since Crippling Strike is the 3rd attack of Sword AA.

My point was, you need to faint your attacks to be less predictable. If you purposely interrupt your own AA with FS, your target will reserve their dodges/evades for FS then you can AA away having your 3rd AA (Crippling Strike) hit all the time.

Your suggestion is generic – “If you get your opponents to dodge other moves, your AA will hit” works for nearly any spec. It doesn’t touch on the fact that of swords 2 best hits are telegraphed, slow, and scream “Dodge me” every time they’re used, in addition to the fact that there’s little reason to dodge the other swings (slice, slash, the first strike of FS) because they’re so clearly inferior. You haven’t given an opponent any reason to dodge slice, slash or the first swing of FS.

Normalizing the damage will make your hard hitting swing mediocre and less important. :/

But the “flashy” 3rd swing is normal across the board for the different main hand weapons.

AA is bullkitten attack, bullkitten attack, attack you need to dodge. Instead, each attack should have some reason for it to be worth dodging it – in my example above (mid damage + weakness->mid damage +cripple->big damage with no conditions), a conditions spec doesn’t really care about weakness, a spec with alot of escapes might not care about the cripple, and a large HP pool spec might choose to eat the big damage swing to keep fighting back. Just like dagger, each swing has something that makes it unique, there isn’t a clear dodge priority that’s universal regardless whatever your targets spec and class is.

I see what you’re saying, thus I agree that each swing need to offer something.

What boggles my mind is Warrior deals bleeding on the first and second swing using a sword, but a Thief for some reason cannot cause bleeding. I guess our sword is dull. :/

FS is still tricky – like I said in an earlier post, on paper the first swing should clearly be dodge priority for most opponents- it strips a boon, you’re evading for the entirety of the execution, and it ignores block – if it weren’t for the current meta, FS would perfectly fit my criteria; each swing has different characteristics that make them unique, and choosing which one to dodge is actually a tough decision (influenced by your targets spec). Unfortunately due to the current meta, a single boon strip and kittenty damage is generally less problematic for a player than straight up heavy damage. The design of FS is sound (stripping a boon -should- be a big deal), but the current meta makes the choice trivial.

I’m starting to see that now also and Bountiful Theft is hardly the solution.

Okamakiri.8746:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

There is a pro and a con when it comes to mobs dropping aggro.

Scenario #1 (drops aggro): Fighting a Level 80 Vet Mob and it’s almost going down. Stealth to backstab – invulnerable – mob dropped aggro – nooooooooooo!

Scenario #2 (no drops): I walked into a hornet’s nest – Stealth – they’re staring at me – revealed – dead – noooooooo!

Which scenario do you prefer?

1. without a doubt. Playing BS build exclusively in PVE since BWE#1, what you describe has NEVER been an issue. Mobs resetting only ever occurred on extended stealths and could be prevented by applying any condition.

I disagree. Often times, when I stealth to get behind the enemy, by the time I get behind them they already dropped aggro.

EDIT: Kraits were even worst. They dropped aggro as soon as I stealth.

Brassnautilus.2941:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Gojak.8395:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What exactly are you building it for?

I don’t understand

Are you building it so that you can handle conditions in PvP, PvE, WvW, Dungeons, etc.?

Brassnautilus.2941:

Decked.8274:

Not realy, but having an off-hand dagger is a must

huh?
d/p?

Off hand dagger, not pistol, so that everytime you CnD, you remove a condition.

ever heard of blackpowder +hs?
and it removes 2. one at start of stealth, one at end of it

Since the moderator didn’t like my respond to your intelligent comment I will try to be more polite.

If you please review the post you are responding to, you will find that you have misunderstood what he posted because it is plain as daylight that he said “dagger off hand” implying that you need it to access CnD.

To suggest that he meant D/P using BP+HS is simply beyond normal comprehension and typically dwells in the realm of intelligent donkeys.

Bunmaster.9734:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Bunmaster.9734:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The damage from P/P is not from Unload alone. You have to couple it with condition damage also — atleast 25pts in DA. I used to run with 25/30/0/0/15, P/P and D/D build.

Then you should also know that +10% also applies to your daggers. P/P + 10% dmg is still inferior to D/D + 10% dmg.

That’s not really a good comparison since P/P used for the first half of the target’s HP and D/D for the last half. Unload + condition damage will do the job very well in bringing the HP down to 50%, then switch to D/D where Heartseeker shines.

You should not narrow your views into one weapon set, rather expand it that having both P/P and D/D allows us to play as if we have a D/P or P/D weapons sets also.

I carry all weapons 24/7 (3 pistols, diff sigils) switch out weapons according to the situation presented. P/D is the one i never use because i am not condition specced. I use the 25/30/0/15/0 build, since it is versatile enough to accommodate pretty much every weapon combo. I flip my traits +10% pistol dmg, dual skill crit + dmg, spam some unload when such a situation present itself, decent, not impressive.

Of all the weapon sets i use, P/P is the least used. I’d say those, who specced P/P or any weapon set only, are the narrow-minded ones. And i am not bashing P/P itself, but comparing it to other sets, it is subpar.

That’s the problem. P/P is not suppose to be compared to other weapon set because each set has different purpose. Using P/P on a target with <50% health is not as effective as using D/D, and using D/D on a target with >50% health is not as effective as using P/P.

Einlanzer.1627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

There is a pro and a con when it comes to mobs dropping aggro.

Scenario #1 (drops aggro): Fighting a Level 80 Vet Mob and it’s almost going down. Stealth to backstab – invulnerable – mob dropped aggro – nooooooooooo!

Scenario #2 (no drops): I walked into a hornet’s nest – Stealth – they’re staring at me – revealed – dead – noooooooo!

Which scenario do you prefer?

Personally, I encountered #2 a lot more than #1. More importantly, as mentioned in my original post, when it comes to PvE Stealth serves a more critical function defensively than it does offensively.

No offense intended, but I frankly don’t find this to be a very convincing argument.

Like I said, there are pros and cons in either situation. I don’t want mob to drop aggro when I’m close to kill them, it’s just stupid and annoying, but at the same I want them to drop aggro when I’m not in a mood to fight or simply just gathering.

I personally prefer that they don’t drop aggro because resetting after a long fight is simply not fun.

But as far as Revealed is concerned, I agree that it should stay in PvP.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Short and to the point – currently in PvP, S/D’s hardest hitting moves (Crippling strike, second swing of FS) are extremely easy to see coming- even with AA off and attempting to time my swings, I tend to watch players dodge these attacks whenever they can afford to. They do this because its a big chunk of sword DPS, and you can see them coming a mile away.

For both AA and FS, the other swings have the same timings, so why not just average the damage across all the swings?

Sword swings are too slow that you can perform FS in between swings to be less predictable…oops, I said too much.

I fail to see how using FS in the middle of Sword AA (Which in effect delays or sacrifices crippling strike entirely) would make the second swing of FS any less predictable – I suppose you could FS Mid crippling strike (after they’ve dodged), but that doesn’t really change much.

I think you got things mixed up. The second strike of FS is not Crippling Strike since Crippling Strike is the 3rd attack of Sword AA.

My point was, you need to faint your attacks to be less predictable. If you purposely interrupt your own AA with FS, your target will reserve their dodges/evades for FS then you can AA away having your 3rd AA (Crippling Strike) hit all the time.

Bacon Please.8407:

@sir vincent

If you want to be able to backstab while out of stealth then warriors should be able to move while using num2 gs and engineers should be able to throw 20 nades at once instead of 3 and guardians set everything in 5000 on fire automatically for 2k ticks
Necro should have give all conditions to every enemy within 4000. Do you see where i am going?

That’s a slippery slope fallacy. :/

Theif doesn’t need anything but a tone down in damage and increase the debuff so you can’t go back into stealth.

Your idea is to break the profession. No thank you.

Lokheit.7943:

Btw how exactly do you achieve 170 damage/tick bleeds? Just curious about that part.

That’s just a regular one stack of 4s bleed from firing one Vital Shot.

Of course if you’re going for Bleeds you get Condition Damage (in fact there isn’t an amulet for condition duration it’s basically the way to go to maximize it). And of course the Carrion Amulet makes your conditions very strong (it’s the point of that), but you made an unfair comparison.

Not really unfair because that’s the amulet available in PvP.

If you can find a combination of runes and sigils that can give you 75% condition damage then you can make a fair comparison. Amulets/PvE Armor+Trinkets are meant to be what really makes you stronger.

That’s not a good comparison since for every points you add to Condition Damage, the damage from Condition Duration for that extra tick(s) also adds up.

But let’s accept for a second that +75% duration doesn’t have damage increase, a regular one shot of Vital Shot will produce a 4s bleed for 42.5dmg/sec. With +75%, the total damage after 7s is roughly 298 damage.

To match that, it will take around 650 Condition Damage to bleed for 300 total damage after 4s for 75dmg/sec.

The difference is, if the duration is shorten due to counter condition duration items or if the condition is cleansed, your +75% duration are just wasted damage stats.

The PvP amulet of +798 condition damage insures that you deal a condition damage comparable to damage as if the condition has been ticking for 8s.

Having a very high CD, and then upgrade it with +75% damage through duration makes it really strong.

In theory, yes I agree.

In fact when you already have a high CD, you will prefer to add in duration as it’s percentile increase, rather than more bits of CD that are aditive increases (good when the atribute is low, not significative when already high).

My position is this: If you already have high enough condition damage, there’s no need for Condition Duration, instead invest those attribute slots for survival or raw damage increase.

Geiir.7603:

But make no mistake, mastering the thief and knowing when to stay in the fight and when it’s time to get out or not even engage a fight is one of the most important things we do.

QFT

Many thieves like to “Kilroy Stonekin” regardless of the situation. Practice patience and observe well, test the water will ranged skills first.

Example, if you see a straggler by themself, fire a couple of Vital Shots and watch the numbers (just like throwing jabs at first round to test your opponent’s reflexes and defense).

- If the direct hit is lower than expected, then your target has quite a lot of armor.
- If 1k damage only takes 5% of their total health, you can simply do the math that your target may have a total health of 20k.
- If your Bleed is not doing damage as expected, your target is built with anti-condition items.

And remember, before engaging, know your target’s capabilities and incapabilities and always have an exit strategy.

I can finally confirm after several testing that it is the projectile that kicks us out of stealth.

I used the following;

P/x = Vital shot → Steal
Steal beats the bullet at max range, I got kicked out of stealth. At close range, Steal interrupts the auto-attack.

x/D = Dancing Dagger → Steal
Steal beats the dagger at max range. At close range, dagger hits first then Steal. BUT if the dagger bounces I was kicked out of stealth.

SB = Trickshot → Steal
Same result with Dancing Dagger.

I can also confirm that Steal doesn’t initiate auto-attack and it stops auto-attack after cast.

I hope this helps clear these situations at least. So try not to have any projectile flying around before going into stealth.

Gojak.8395:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What exactly are you building it for?

I don’t understand

Are you building it so that you can handle conditions in PvP, PvE, WvW, Dungeons, etc.?

Brassnautilus.2941:

Decked.8274:

Not realy, but having an off-hand dagger is a must

huh?
d/p?

Off hand dagger, not pistol, so that everytime you CnD, you remove a condition.

What exactly are you building it for?

Selver.1307:

All in all id say we have some of the most well balanced heals!

I really dig them both honestly.

I didnt forget som…

I still can’t find a use for that signet.

It’s just not good enough. I wish its active skill heals for at least 5k. :/

Master of Timespace.2548:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I rather see our skills tied to positioning rather than Stealth.

I want to backstab even without Stealth as long as I am behind or the side of my target because that’s really the only reason why we build around stealth in the first place.

Nonsense. The main defense of a bs thief is stealth. If you don’t use stealth defensively, you aren’t playing as good as you could.

What are you talking about?

If we don’t need stealth to backstab, we can reserve stealth for defense.

So who’s really talking nonsense here?

Really depends what kind of condition you want to remove. With Shadow’s Embrace, you can remove all DoTs by using Hide in Shadows plus one other condition.

There is a pro and a con when it comes to mobs dropping aggro.

Scenario #1 (drops aggro): Fighting a Level 80 Vet Mob and it’s almost going down. Stealth to backstab – invulnerable – mob dropped aggro – nooooooooooo!

Scenario #2 (no drops): I walked into a hornet’s nest – Stealth – they’re staring at me – revealed – dead – noooooooo!

Which scenario do you prefer?

evilapprentice.6379:

Short and to the point – currently in PvP, S/D’s hardest hitting moves (Crippling strike, second swing of FS) are extremely easy to see coming- even with AA off and attempting to time my swings, I tend to watch players dodge these attacks whenever they can afford to. They do this because its a big chunk of sword DPS, and you can see them coming a mile away.

For both AA and FS, the other swings have the same timings, so why not just average the damage across all the swings?

Sword swings are too slow that you can perform FS in between swings to be less predictable…oops, I said too much.