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My opinion is we don’t need tiered raiding modes.
And I respect that opinion – and how you have chosen to defend it earlier in this thread – even though I obviously disagree with it.
I know that tiers bring a certain stigma from their use in other games. I played many of those games and saw the good and bad that this kind of model brings. I accept that they are not a perfect solution.
However, if not through the use of tiers, how do we address the accessibility issue? How do we normalize the experience between players who enjoy and are proficient on a condition ranger or power tempest with players who enjoy and are proficient on a power scrapper or revenant? And how do we better ensure that future balance patches don’t invalidate enjoyable playstyles in raids?
The tiered model is the solution I think best addresses this issue, but maybe there is a better one out there.
What would you suggest? Should players just accept that, in order to raid without frustration, they need to play something they may not enjoy? I really don’t like the idea of that.
Or do you see it as a non issue without the need for a solution?
Is it just that people hate the idea of tiered difficulty and – even if the system is broken (which I believe it is) – feel implementation of this kind of model would somehow corrupt the game?
I ask these questions because I think the conversation is worth having – and I believe there are still people who can have that conversation civilly. I would actually welcome it.
The main issue with all of your proposals are you want to change the fundamental concepts and target audience of Raids. Raids were intended to be the hardest content this game has to offer for organized groups, your ideas would completely undermine that and most players that want the easier modes want the exact same rewards as the current version which would make the current Raids meaningless.
With the appropriate traits and proper play, you can drop 20 stacks of poison on a target in an opening burst (Spider, Basi, precast Choking, Impairing daggers, steal initialize while the choking is in flight, lotus dodge away with caltrops on dodge gives another several stacks from projectile combo and the daggers themselves.). It is in fact easier now than it was before thanks to bonus poison stacks.
exact combo of mine, did i not share this with you in spvp?
on another note, its not the fact you have to give opponents or enemies the poison via the choking gas, thats the BAD way to do it. If anyone wants a build for use in wvw or spvp hit me up in game via mail. you dont want Carrion as the power is too low, you want Vipers as it has a balance of power(procs with PI) and condi damage too. its a hybrid and has netted me up to 20 kills, 480k dmg and 23% of my entire team dmg in spvp…not counting that you could do far better in wvw due to no cooldowns on specific sigils.
I have noticed PI not proccing with CG Dazes, non show in combat log and no indicator on player. I have to test it further but that’s what I have noticed so far since last night
Upsides of SB is it allows positioning if you manage ini, making you able to kite players and with that make players move through the poison Fields, and you can always swap to the second set and pressure there as well while building lots of poison if traited. By no means will it replace D/P Meta Thief but it’s definitely an interesting build/Play style giving Thief a semi viable kiting build and point pressure build
So staying Longbow on my Ranger should be enough to avoid the Torment spam? I’ve seen Revanants teleport short distances. Not sure what skill that is. I know they have the leap that leaves the purple pizza field of death.
Work on that issue first, knowing class skills and mechanics is paramount to everything else. Then you will more than likely see how to combat more builds/classes.
I was thinking something more along the lines of this
The poisons are at 98% duration provides ample Burst as well as cleanses, I was using both Distracting Daggers and Spider Venom for large burst but it cut into to the survivability too much.
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Yeah it doesn’t seem to proc PI in the slightest
In a sense yes, but their reasoning is flawed since Stealth Attacks do have a cost and they have Conditions to be met to even have max effectiveness unlike the majority of every other attack.
The condition is stealth. That’s not a cost. That’s one of the best abilities in the game. Free attacks and stealth together is admittedly a bit much.
You have to use a CD or Over 1/3 of the initiative for the class to gain Stealth for 3s hmm no cost what so ever….. the condition for max damage is to get behind them in that short timeframe. There’s a cost since you can’t use Stealth Attacks without paying it.
snipples
grats on completely ignoring a valid point that would render your argument invalid.
as for the los’ing part, do you really think its sound strategy to allow one skill on one class to force you off point? is the objective to stand off point, or allow an enemy point to remain capped? no? ok. signing off here.
You mean like how most AoEs force players off points as one skill? Or any other ridiculous argument you might come up with?
I wonder what you would do if Mesmer had to take a second weaponset that didn’t have anything other than one Skill that was useful and was never actually used for combat.
You mean Staff?
You mean the weapon that actually has more useful things than Shortbow on Thief?
snipples
oh my bad i thought you were saying the daze pulse has a 2sec icd.
No it needs a 2 sec ICD on it.
If a thief puts 2-3 CG on a down the only way to get the rez is if a Mesmer does a 3-clone Distortion.
Or if you have resistance, stab, or one guy with a couple aoe cleanses.
Some players have a hard grasp on what counterplay is.
Thankfully the skill by itself per application can’t reach the threshold to provide Dazes and Jaya why I think increasing the ICD is the best way to ensure it isn’t Overtuned.
The SB 4 need me the ICD increased it will daze every second each pulse if the person has more than 5 stacks upon entering the field but we will have to test to see if it’s a real issue since that is only if they are completely stationary for the full field which rarely ever the case in actual pvp
My laptop can’t handle taking a video of GW2. But since you are so adamant that it procs only once every 2 ticks, then you post a video of it only proccing every 2 ticks.
Because you clearly haven’t even tested the skill.
I retract my previous statement, it his all four times which solidifies my suggestion of its ICD becomes 2 secs. That is stupid, but again the CG alone can’t get the stacks which is a plus.
In Pvp last night I wasn’t seeing the dazes hit everytime when people sat in the fields and that could be due to stab/cleanses etc. on a Golem it does show
I did try it, clearly you are the one who didn’t. It dazed the golem on every pulse from that combo field. And I’m not the first one to come in this thread and correct you on this.
Stop spreading lies, you clearly don’t even understand how the skill works.
Let’s see a video of one CG proccing multiple dazes
/bug.
15 chars
Hmm someone should read patch notes, Choking Gas has an ICD….. 2 to be precise one on the poison pulse and one on the daze..
Choking Gas: Increased damage by 200%. This skill now briefly dazes foes with 5 or more stacks of poison every pulse. The same foe cannot be dazed more than once every second.
Yes and it only applies the Daze on CG poison pulse….. Poison pulses every second, Daze can only affect one target per second, two ICDs on the skill.
Let’s see how that plays out: get hit for initial poison pulse if you have 5 stacks of Poison at that time get dazed, ICD happens on daze Second Poison Pulse no Daze, ICD is over Third pulse Daze(if opponent is bad enough to still be in the field…) CG only last 4 seconds, At max per CG its 2 Dazes on each target.
LMFAO this is completely wrong. If the enemy has enough stacks of poison, CG will daze them 4 times.
Go try it the ICD happens after the Poison Pulse try one CG field, the Pulse and ICD are completely separate, regardless I am advocating they make the ICD on daze every 2 secs to stop all the inbound whining of bads since I don’t want to see SB nerfed back into nothingness. But hey you have had issues understanding other things before. And let’s not forget CG can’t apply 5 stacks by itself
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They shaved a lot of the powercreep, which is healthy for the game, perpetually buffing everything doesn’t promote healthy gameplay or make options available, they Shaved the Passive gameplay which is the best thing for the Game and they shaved some of the Overtuned Damage and Sustain again extremely healthy, now they just have to keep tweaking to make the game less spammy and skilless, but they are on the right path, I’m just hoping hey don’t screw up the path with the next Expac.
Even with the Two Poison stacks still not as cancerous since you can still see the Thief to better anticipate and negate the Burst
Not in its cancerous form since Thieves still be revealed from anything not Caltrops or Steal with that build.
It will just be a annoying fly that is easily pinned down
The thief trait ‘Pulmonary Impact’ needs a 5 second ICD… Or Headshot needs to cost 2 more initiative
yeah let’s nerf core spec for no good reason!
Pulmonary impact is a Daredevil trait…
He was referring to the Headshot ini increase suggested as far as I can tell…. which is core Thief
It’s meh I was using last night but It’s a great swap weapon now for Condi builds but not Main weapon viable the Choking Gas needs to be spammed to get enough Poison stacks to Proc the daze and then iits easily negated, and we all know what happens when Thieves expend all their Ini too fast…..
There is a reason that thieves have been perma meta for the entire history of this game, while warriors haven’t.
Perma Meta right…… * looks back at seasons 1 and 2* Thieves still harassed if there are more than 1 on a team(something or other class is harassed about).
The Daze works on PULSE not on Crossing the field like static fields, read the patch notes, the Pulses happen once per second, once the daze happened the ICD kicks in that means at most 2 dazes on the same target…….
Edit: here you go the Patch note.
- Choking Gas: Increased damage by 200%. This skill now briefly dazes foes with 5 or more stacks of poison every pulse.The same foe cannot be dazed more than once every second.
And let’s not forget CG alone can’t make 5 stacks. Since it only pulses 4 times.
Testing it on golem, it definitively dazes once every second. If the target already has poison on them you can easily get 4 CC ticks.
Also the initiative cost of CG is low enough that a thief can easily put two CG down at the same time without breaking his ini management, and can put three down in a pinch. So reach 5 stacks is trivial.
If you have multiple fields down they overlap the trigger since each pulse goes at separate times and oh Noooo…. the thief has to use over half its ini for a few Dazes that are easily negated smh
Again one CG cannot cause dazes, and if there are multiple fields there are multiple triggers that can over lap the ICD
Was that on the table?
OP wants traitline about mobility not have anything to do with mobility.
OP wants an icd on an ability that is another, among many, overly bloated abilities for thief. Spamming dodges to break immobilizes when thieves multiple means to do so is unhealthy for balanced gameplay.
OP doesn’t realize the last 2 balance patches have seen nerfs to Thieves Evades and Endurance regeneration.
It’s funny the complaints are coming from someone that plays a class with on demand access to Resistance Spam which negates all movement impairing effects.
What’s funny is I play every single profession in this game, more than most of you. When classes that have a minimal way of gaining distance from a thief and he just random kittenollolol dodges out of it, you’ll begin to recognize the broken nature of dash. I can be objective in my criticism of abilities.
Also, I don’t know where you’re getting that I play something with on demand resistance spam as my profession.
Oh no, how dare a class that can’t hold point nor tank/support team to save their lives be good at moving around the map! Blasphemy!
having a small icd on immobilize break on dodge wouldnt affect how fast you can move around the map. it just affects how easily you can reset a fight.
There is already a CD on how many Immobs that can be cleansed, this is called endurance regen…….. and since the last couple patches Thieves have had their endurance regen nerfed significantly. Just saying,
This is laughable.
It is laughable the excuses you ty to come up with when Anet has already been indirectly nerfing UC through nerfing Thief Endurance regen. Again I’m so sorry I can’t play the game for you and make it easier for you.
@Sly
Thank you for proving my point. The 1 second ICD part of that doesn’t need to be there. And does not need to be talked about. It could just say dazes for x every second and it would mean exactly the same thing.
Pointing at the ICD as a reason the skill isnt OP when the ICD is the PULSE RECHARGE is pointless. All I want out of this is for people to actually be discussing the skill in regards to the cost, risk, and effectiveness of the skill in comparison to its affects and what other classes are capable of.
Again. Im not saying its op. Infact in comparison to other classes down cleave id say its cheap but balanced. Cheap meaning the relatively little risk involved for the impact it can have. But its true other classes can have similar if not more deadly cleave actions.
At most id increase the cost of doing the skill a little and leave it in its current format.
Wow you have a weird way of thinking, you need 5 stacks of poison to prove the Daze, it’s not a daze for just being in the CG field, so it saying daze every x seconds is nowhere near the same. CG alone cannot provide 5 stacks of poison, so CG alone cannot cause the Dazes and if someone is waiting for all 4 pulses then having the Daze process from other poison applications…. GG I didn’t prove anything that you said, since you were talking about it applying daze to anyone crossing the CG field.
No ini cost need increase since t can’t cause the dazes itself, at most it will need the ICD increased maybe 1 second.
Also just as a caveat to my earlier analysis, CG can only apply two Dazes max per target with how the Two separate ICDs work out.
Typically, I stack CG on the target. Since I have not tested this new update in the game yet, I would assume that each application of CG will overlap the timers since each CG will pulse at a different rate. My Impairing Daggers will ensure that they stay inside the gas at least for 3 pulses.
Yes but in theory and in practice are two completely different beasts due to the dynamic nature of this game and combat system, there are so many factors to take into account.
You might be able to overlap timers but that’s 8 initiative and if they are able to get out of it which isn’t too difficult that’s 8 ini wasted.
“Just pop an invuln or a stab’ Okay. What about classes that dont have relaible access to either anymore? Like say rangers. And every other class whos entire stab load can be stopped by one steal. What then? Yeah the downed person dies and theres nothing you can do to stop it.
Im not gonna say shortbow didn’t need a buff. But keep in mind it is one of hte most powerful if not THE Most powerful mobility weapon in the game. And yes people that DOES count. Its not like it magically is a bad weapon if it doesnt deal backstab level damage.
The chocking gas was already worthy down cleave in the application of poison. Something not every class/build can do. But something NEARLY every thief build can do since shortbow was SO GOOD they took it anyway.
The classes that can invuln through that choking gas are also the classes that don’t have increased rez speed in there primary builds. Making them unable to rez through the duration of most invulns.
Lets face it a mesmer isnt going to be able to solo distort rez. Especially not with a thief waiting to gank his ass the second the distort is gone. And choking gas will keep him form stealth rezzing as well.
This is NOT a down skill of equal power to others. Its node fighting potential in team fights is high as well making this skill even more powerful. Its synergy with PI makes it even MORE powerful.
Lets dispense with the “Oh it only dazes you once per second” you know as well as I the icd is only for people that are forced to move in and out of the edge of the cloud. Once per second is more than enough.
If were gonna pick this skill apart finding excuses for it you can have a more honest AND reliable approach by comparing thief down cleave to that of other classes. Like a necro using path of corruption enhanced rs2 into rs4 to break up and punish a rez. Which is one of the most powerful down cleave combos.
The ICD has NOTHING to do with the performance of the skill in this case as it would only affect people moving in and out of the field. So get rid of that kitten now and talk about the mechanics that would actually affect the target of the thread.
Note: I am not stating whether the skill is OP or Not. I havnt encountered it enough to have an accurate opinion. Though with my class now back to living in terror of a single boon steal/strip im naturally gonna be leaning towards caution here. But I am also trying to not let knee jerk reactions guide me. But lets ATLEAST discuss this topic HONESTLY. And not doing everything we can to point at small kitten and saying “LOOK LOOK HOW IMPORTANT THIS IS AND HOW IT PROVES YOUR WRONG”
The Daze works on PULSE not on Crossing the field like static fields, read the patch notes, the Pulses happen once per second, once the daze happened the ICD kicks in that means at most 2 dazes on the same target…….
Edit: here you go the Patch note.
- Choking Gas: Increased damage by 200%. This skill now briefly dazes foes with 5 or more stacks of poison every pulse.The same foe cannot be dazed more than once every second.
And let’s not forget CG alone can’t make 5 stacks. Since it only pulses 4 times.
barely anyone has projectile defense that can be active while a player uses another skill. why do people use this as a defense for cc spam? also los’ing isnt much help in conquest where the objective is to stand on point and cap it. this isnt a duelling server we’re talking about.
The logic is astounding, let’s not use defenses to stop being CC’d or damaged…….. and let’s not forget the other counters, blinds, blocks, Stability, dodges, invulns.
And being able to effectively fight other players is necessary to win fights if you are fighting over points, that means using terrain advantages etc. sorry you just want to stand in one spot bunkering a point……..
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Hmm someone should read patch notes, Choking Gas has an ICD….. 2 to be precise one on the poison pulse and one on the daze..
Choking Gas: Increased damage by 200%. This skill now briefly dazes foes with 5 or more stacks of poison every pulse. The same foe cannot be dazed more than once every second.
Yes and it only applies the Daze on CG poison pulse….. Poison pulses every second, Daze can only affect one target per second, two ICDs on the skill.
Let’s see how that plays out: get hit for initial poison pulse if you have 5 stacks of Poison at that time get dazed, ICD happens on daze Second Poison Pulse no Daze, ICD is over Third pulse Daze(if opponent is bad enough to still be in the field…) CG only last 4 seconds, At max per CG its 2 Dazes on each target.
Also just as a caveat to my earlier analysis, CG can only apply two Dazes max per target with how the Two separate ICDs work out.
Notes on the CG buffs, the Skill has two ICDs tied to its Daze one for the Poison pulse which is the only thing that can prove the daze and one on the Daze itself, if anything it can receive an increase to the daze ICD and it will be great since by itself CG can’t apply 5 stacks of poison in one use to prod the Daze to begin with and people have to stand in it to be dazed, now the skill will be impactful on bads that don’t move out of AoE red circles
Was that on the table?
OP wants traitline about mobility not have anything to do with mobility.
OP wants an icd on an ability that is another, among many, overly bloated abilities for thief. Spamming dodges to break immobilizes when thieves multiple means to do so is unhealthy for balanced gameplay.
OP doesn’t realize the last 2 balance patches have seen nerfs to Thieves Evades and Endurance regeneration.
It’s funny the complaints are coming from someone that plays a class with on demand access to Resistance Spam which negates all movement impairing effects.
What’s funny is I play every single profession in this game, more than most of you. When classes that have a minimal way of gaining distance from a thief and he just random kittenollolol dodges out of it, you’ll begin to recognize the broken nature of dash. I can be objective in my criticism of abilities.
Also, I don’t know where you’re getting that I play something with on demand resistance spam as my profession.
Oh no, how dare a class that can’t hold point nor tank/support team to save their lives be good at moving around the map! Blasphemy!
having a small icd on immobilize break on dodge wouldnt affect how fast you can move around the map. it just affects how easily you can reset a fight.
There is already a CD on how many Immobs that can be cleansed, this is called endurance regen…….. and since the last couple patches Thieves have had their endurance regen nerfed significantly. Just saying,
In the spirit of trying to come to a compromise about this, although I don’t believe it is op in its current state, why not just increase the poison threshold instead of sending the skill back down to the depths? Up it to 8. If it were at 8 the thief would either need to spam the skill atleast twice or get help from team mates.
It would require the thief at that point to use another skill to get away as their intiative would be low from committing to an aoe daze. Otherwise the thief would need to run venom to apply the daze if team mates do not contribute to poison stacks.
If you complain at that point for not being able to rez after a thief nearly exhausted their own resources to prevent a rez then I feel it is a L2P issue
A few hints to note, the Daze only Procs on Choking Gas Pulse, the Daze has an ICD separate from the Pulse, Choking Gas alone can only apply 4 Stacks at most each stack only last 2 secs per pulse baseline, so by itself one Choking Gas doesn’t do much, now I could see the Daze ICD being increased to 2 seconds.
But right now it’s a skill that has two separate ICDs and can’t reach the 5 stack threshold alone.
God these PI discussions are always so hilarious. I love this certain one “let’s put PI on 5 sec CD! It won’t be spammed then!” You can still headshot and still interrupt theres just no damage this existed Pre HoT and was used the same way, so what part is the part that is considered OP? The damage or the interrupt? Since we already got tuned on the damage in this patch included no air/fire.
Anyway seeing this thread is like full popcorn let’s go lads
I was wondering when you would pop into the discussion!
the shortbow changes are INCREDIBLY good, especially for condi thief. Choking gas is insane. And there are several high level condi thieves in the game; just because it isn’t popular doesn’t mean it isn’t good.
When i first saw the changes, while I thought they would be good, I underestimated what that Daze add could do. As an interrupt this superior to headshot as it unblockable , costs the same mana, ignores stability and is unblockable along with hitting multiple targets. A viable hybrid with PI and Pressure strike might work with SB.
How does it Ignore Stability? And it has two separate built in ICDs one on pulse and one on daze.
Sorry. I am talking about the damage portion from the poisons I should have been clearer. IE if you use headshot and the guy got stab up you do next to no damage for the INI spent. if you use Gas for that same INI you are getting the unblockable poison damage. Thus my thoughts that this might work Hybrid given SB raw damage off the cluster bomb is not all bad.
Ok that makes more sense, it does feel slightly Overtuned currently, I think they could increase the Daze to once every 2 secs since that means at most only two dazed on the same target, and the poison Damage is easily negated through cleanses or resistance as well as stepping out of the field. Since it applies on pulse and it’s only 1 stack every second max 4, so unless the Thief is using multiple skills 1 Choking Gas isn’t going to be doing much for dazes.
If you define power creep as an improvement to a skill in any way than there will always be power creep. Always.
It’s one thing to adjust a few numerical values and coefficients to make something do slightly more damage. It’s another to literally change the way a skill works and make it significantly more powerful than any previous iteration by adding a daze to it that wasn’t previously there.
The former is simply a buff; the latter is power creep.
There is not a single mmo out there without power creep by that definition.
Guild Wars 1 rarely took this kind of approach to balance, for one. But you’re right: very few MMOs avoid power creep. Many of them actually celebrate it, which is a big reason why vertical progression is so popular.
I played Guild Wars 1 and play Guild Wars 2 because ArenaNet was historically a bit more even-keeled when it came to their approach to balance. They’ve certainly buffed and nerfed some skills over the years in ways I often found objectionable, but yesterday’s change to how turrets overcharge (as welcomed as it is) and to Choking Gas represent not buffs or nerfs but literal reworks to how skills operate literally five years into this game’s existence.
These are not the types of changes ArenaNet should be making here, especially when there’s so much ample low hanging fruit like mesmer mantras or engineer gadgets that desperately need their attention.
Simple fact is: if ArenaNet wants more resurrection denial, they should just reduce the amount of stability they poured into the game two years ago. There’s already way too much CC in Heart of Thorns PvP; we don’t need even more of this.
We need to scale back the power creep, not advance it.
Sometimes skill reworks are needed because slight number tweaks don’t make a weapon more viable, most weapons that are Meta have been Meta for what they do not for the numbers tweaks, and have been Meta for a long long time.
And the weapons was the most underperforming thing besides one skill, when a class brings a weapon and is almost exclusively mandatory for one skill that isn’t even used for Combat/damage purposes there is a problem that needs fixed.
the shortbow changes are INCREDIBLY good, especially for condi thief. Choking gas is insane. And there are several high level condi thieves in the game; just because it isn’t popular doesn’t mean it isn’t good.
When i first saw the changes, while I thought they would be good, I underestimated what that Daze add could do. As an interrupt this superior to headshot as it unblockable , costs the same mana, ignores stability and is unblockable along with hitting multiple targets. A viable hybrid with PI and Pressure strike might work with SB.
How does it Ignore Stability? And it has two separate built in ICDs one on pulse and one on daze.
I’ll just put an icd to pi or the daze on the choking gas, because atm it’s disgusting strong.
Hmm someone should read patch notes, Choking Gas has an ICD….. 2 to be precise one on the poison pulse and one on the daze..
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again the problem is PI spamm…..
put cd to it 5 sec and solve any problemPI only procs if you get interrupted, something that in 90% of all cases is completely avoidable….
This is a thoughtless response, and there’s no way you can prove it. Headshot with PI counters a few builds outright; necros and revs get destroyed by it due to long casting times on skills, and in rev’s case the inability to respond at range. Meditrapper is somewhat countered by it once cooldowns are exhausted, but that’s more just its lack of sustain. Very easy to interrupt F2.
PI needs a short ICD, like 3 seconds. Getting multiple stacks of it because you mashed a button is low-skill, idk why you’d defend that.
One hint Revs do have a few counters to PI through Hammer projectile Hate Staff projectile hate, Blocks, Infused light, their ability to gain stability, and all those can be used at range, never yes they can get rely by it but they can also pump out decent stability if they don’t play like potatoes, and they are essentially a giant meet sponge, it could use more shaves , it just received pnentoday let’s see how the Meta settles first though, since right now everyone is running around like chicken little screaming the sky is falling, so sit back and take everything with a grain of salt till it settles.
And again counterplay exists for Projectiles which the main offender is Headshot which is a projectile.
Did you really just list a heal skill as a counter to PI? “Yeah this does damage why don’t u just heal ok.” Heal skill =/= counter. Honestly dude I barely play thief anymore but if you’re in NA I’d be happy to duel you while you play rev (power or condi) and let’s see how you do. Staff has no “projectile hate” except maybe staff 3? Headshot is 900 range so you can stand outside of staff 3’s blinding projectile’s range no prob. Thief is a flat out counter to all revs aside from hammer lmao, and even hammer’s projectile block is only in front of them. It’s not like engi’s hammer 2 or bulwark gyro toolbelt skill.. And I notice you say nothing about thief vs. necro.
The thing about necro is that it can do quite well in 1v1s if they have lots of LF to start, especially power necs. Wanna guess the one meta build that still counters necro no matter now much LF they have?
I’d really like to hear your motivation for these weak responses. You’d lose to me, a below-average thief, while playing those builds simply due to PI. It’s inevitable.
If only the game wasn’t designed with Hard counters in mind, and oh no two out of 9 classes might have difficulty with Thief, the sky is falling… like I said everyone is overreacting. And yes I listed counters available to the class that stop HS and PI you just don’t want to except them for what they are can be used for that’s not my problem and I can’t play the game for you, sorry.
Well you claimed that being interrupted by headshot was avoidable 90% of the time; now that you admit PI hard counters revs and necros, that leaves 78% of the remaining classes. Ofc there are certain builds that are also hard countered by PI but I wouldn’t say that they’re meta. Well below your 90% threshold. And remember that we’re not talking about thief, we’re talking about a single thief trait countering over 20% of the meta. Good debating with you though, try to keep it factual next time.
Even with out PI Thieves counter reapers and hey are on par with revs GG, sorry I can’t help with critical thinking as well as playing the game for you, it’s not like Rev and Reaper don’t counter other classes and builds and their are more than just Revs, Reapers and Thieves in the game GG, look at the game as a whole next time.
Counter play exists through skills that use projectile Hate, give Stability, blocks, invulns, not spamming skills, and oh yeah dodging, even LoS/obstructing the projectile.
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I know why it was used, but that doesn’t change anything. It is still a weapon that was already used 100% of the time on thieves. Dev time would have been better spent making SB5 on thieves not so mandatory for them somehow (preferably by adding some of that mobility to other weapon sets somehow). As it stands though, that was a straight up buff to every thief, since every single one will still be running SB all the time
Oh no a weapon that had no uses besides gtfo or die and was never used for any of its other skills, I wonder what you would do if Mesmer had to take a second weaponset that didn’t have anything other than one Skill that was useful and was never actually used for combat. Again it was a buff to an underperforming weapon which is good, because now Thieves have an option for the weapon instead of being locked into a useless weapon for 9 seconds.
again the problem is PI spamm…..
put cd to it 5 sec and solve any problemPI only procs if you get interrupted, something that in 90% of all cases is completely avoidable….
This is a thoughtless response, and there’s no way you can prove it. Headshot with PI counters a few builds outright; necros and revs get destroyed by it due to long casting times on skills, and in rev’s case the inability to respond at range. Meditrapper is somewhat countered by it once cooldowns are exhausted, but that’s more just its lack of sustain. Very easy to interrupt F2.
PI needs a short ICD, like 3 seconds. Getting multiple stacks of it because you mashed a button is low-skill, idk why you’d defend that.
One hint Revs do have a few counters to PI through Hammer projectile Hate Staff projectile hate, Blocks, Infused light, their ability to gain stability, and all those can be used at range, never yes they can get rely by it but they can also pump out decent stability if they don’t play like potatoes, and they are essentially a giant meet sponge, it could use more shaves , it just received pnentoday let’s see how the Meta settles first though, since right now everyone is running around like chicken little screaming the sky is falling, so sit back and take everything with a grain of salt till it settles.
And again counterplay exists for Projectiles which the main offender is Headshot which is a projectile.
Did you really just list a heal skill as a counter to PI? “Yeah this does damage why don’t u just heal ok.” Heal skill =/= counter. Honestly dude I barely play thief anymore but if you’re in NA I’d be happy to duel you while you play rev (power or condi) and let’s see how you do. Staff has no “projectile hate” except maybe staff 3? Headshot is 900 range so you can stand outside of staff 3’s blinding projectile’s range no prob. Thief is a flat out counter to all revs aside from hammer lmao, and even hammer’s projectile block is only in front of them. It’s not like engi’s hammer 2 or bulwark gyro toolbelt skill.. And I notice you say nothing about thief vs. necro.
The thing about necro is that it can do quite well in 1v1s if they have lots of LF to start, especially power necs. Wanna guess the one meta build that still counters necro no matter now much LF they have?
I’d really like to hear your motivation for these weak responses. You’d lose to me, a below-average thief, while playing those builds simply due to PI. It’s inevitable.
If only the game wasn’t designed with Hard counters in mind, and oh no two out of 9 classes might have difficulty with Thief, the sky is falling… like I said everyone is overreacting. And yes I listed counters available to the class that stop HS and PI you just don’t want to except them for what they are can be used for that’s not my problem and I can’t play the game for you, sorry.
Oh noooo, having to move out of Cleave and pressure when rezzing, or having to pop one of the many cleanses or Invulns that plague the game. Who would be so mean as to make it so there consequences to standing Undefended in the middle of an AoE.
You can’t rez from outside the field the radius is too wide. There are exactly 2 classes in the game capable of moving a downed, and only 1 of those classes can do it on a realistic build.
I’m sorry but a thief shouldn’t be able to single handily stop a rez by pressing 1 button on shortbow.
Again you are under the assumption that a player should be able to Rez through Cleave everytime, that is the flaw in your argument, and there are multiple other ways to Rez through the Cleave, Stability, Invulns, Cleanses Etc. it’s called counterplay.
You can rez through gravedigger spam. You can rez through Plaguelands. You can rez through glass staff ele. You can’t rez through Choking Gas.
Cleaving out a rez that the other team is committing to takes multiple people cleaving. Except now thief can cleave out a rez with 1 button.
Moreover thief is already the best class when it comes to stomping, why does it also need to be the best class for cleaving out downs?
There are a few ways to get the Rez off one invulning through it using stability, using cleanses, hell pressuring the Thief away, sorry I can’t play the game for you, and other classes can stomp just as effectively if not better than thief, he’ll one can do it while spamming all his other skills, and other classes have just as strong of cleave, sorry you can’t GG sit through Thief pressure while rezzing without a second thought any more.
Psssttt ^ this guy doesn’t want his broken thief builds touched.
Psst I don’t use D/P or Headshot Spam…. people are just overreacting, especially since the majority of actually skilled players left the game.
again the problem is PI spamm…..
put cd to it 5 sec and solve any problemPI only procs if you get interrupted, something that in 90% of all cases is completely avoidable….
This is a thoughtless response, and there’s no way you can prove it. Headshot with PI counters a few builds outright; necros and revs get destroyed by it due to long casting times on skills, and in rev’s case the inability to respond at range. Meditrapper is somewhat countered by it once cooldowns are exhausted, but that’s more just its lack of sustain. Very easy to interrupt F2.
PI needs a short ICD, like 3 seconds. Getting multiple stacks of it because you mashed a button is low-skill, idk why you’d defend that.
One hint Revs do have a few counters to PI through Hammer projectile Hate Staff projectile hate, Blocks, Infused light, their ability to gain stability, and all those can be used at range, never yes they can get rely by it but they can also pump out decent stability if they don’t play like potatoes, and they are essentially a giant meet sponge, it could use more shaves , it just received pnentoday let’s see how the Meta settles first though, since right now everyone is running around like chicken little screaming the sky is falling, so sit back and take everything with a grain of salt till it settles.
And again counterplay exists for Projectiles which the main offender is Headshot which is a projectile.
Oh noooo, having to move out of Cleave and pressure when rezzing, or having to pop one of the many cleanses or Invulns that plague the game. Who would be so mean as to make it so there consequences to standing Undefended in the middle of an AoE.
You can’t rez from outside the field the radius is too wide. There are exactly 2 classes in the game capable of moving a downed, and only 1 of those classes can do it on a realistic build.
I’m sorry but a thief shouldn’t be able to single handily stop a rez by pressing 1 button on shortbow.
Again you are under the assumption that a player should be able to Rez through Cleave everytime, that is the flaw in your argument, and there are multiple other ways to Rez through the Cleave, Stability, Invulns, Cleanses Etc. it’s called counterplay.
Use your gems to buy a legendary weapon…. Gliding requires a mastery Obtained in HoT maps in Verdant Brink, do what makes you happy, I would suggest leveling a character the old fashioned way before popping the lvl 80 boost so you learn the game first
Seeing how the Choking Gas daze can only affect each person only once with a 1 sec ICD on the daze, people can move out of the cloud, cleanse the poison, dodge the cloud, uses Stability, use an Invuln. You know things called not standing the same small green circle letting stacks build on you……
You realize we are talking about rezzing right? Choking gas completely stops a rez. It both applying poison and applying a pulsing CC. You can’t rez through that.
Rezzing through the 120 sec cd Plaguelands is easier than rezzing through choking gas.
Oh noooo, having to move out of Cleave and pressure when rezzing, or having to pop one of the many cleanses or Invulns that plague the game. Who would be so mean as to make it so there consequences to standing Undefended in the middle of an AoE.
Seeing how the Choking Gas daze can only affect each person only once with a 1 sec ICD on the daze, people can move out of the cloud, cleanse the poison, dodge the cloud, uses Stability, use an Invuln. You know things called not standing the same small green circle letting stacks build on you……