Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

You guys are mistaken in the assumption that legendaries are supposed to primarily be something for rich people to buy, it supposed to be a merit based goal, though i think we can say now, that its kind of far from that.

Merit based goal that’s inherently expensive and unnecessary.

Luxury items:

• Precursors
• Legendaries
• BL Ticket skins
• My wife’s Coach purse and matching boots
• My Gucci hat

Behellagh.1468:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

In my opinion I would want more content that is challenging and rewarding based on the challenge you have to face. But I’m ok with ANet’s guideline to not reward skill that much. They just have to apply that guideline to their whole game, that includes the TP.

Ahem

You CANNOT compare rewards from drops to profits from the TP. They are two completely separate things. Like comparing apples to an airplane. Rewards from drops are newly created wealth that never existed in the game. Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% removed from the economy.
Once you understand why your thought process is flawed, you’ll realize that there will never be this “balance” you seek.

You can repeat that as much as you want Smooth. To HHR gold is gold regardless of the source.

Oh I know. Some people take a little longer to teach than others.

TheFamster.7806:

By that definition even exotic gears are luxury for this game

Try again. Exotics are affordable, while Precursors and Legendaries are not. It’s like the difference between a Toyota and a Lamborghini. You need to read the bolded parts I pointed out to you. I’ll post the definition again for clarify.

Luxury: a condition or situation of great comfort, ease, and wealth; something that is expensive and not necessary; something that is helpful or welcome and that is not usually or always available

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/luxury

TheFamster.7806:

Umm you do realize when you work towards something it isn’t RNG? For instance your paycheck which can be used to buy luxury isn’t RNG. And Car engine components also aren’t RNG. When you build/work towards something, you don’t expect heavy RNG components unlike gw2

Ummm, what does any of what you said have to do with a Legendary not being a luxury? Anyways, to help, allow me to repost the following:

Luxury: a condition or situation of great comfort, ease, and wealth; something that is expensive and not necessary; something that is helpful or welcome and that is not usually or always available

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/luxury

Pay close attention to the second and last part of the definition. I’ll bold it for you to point them out.

TheFamster.7806:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TheFamster.7806:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TheFamster.7806:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TheFamster.7806:

This is funny how people compare a game item to real life luxury lol. Do you really have to justify the RNG in game by comparing your item to a real life luxury? Just because you compare a legendary to Lambo/Ferrari don’t even think for one second that is true. Legendaries are meant to be achieved by gamers while luxurious cars target different customers. Unless legendaries suddenly become available only by real life currency, please don’t make such ridiculous comparison

Please tell me where it says that all players are Entitled to a Legendary? Just because all players are capable of getting one, doesn’t mean they all deserve one.

I never said they are “entitled” Please do quote me on that usage of vocabulary. I said they should be achievable, which could mean from RNG to crafted/hunted. RNG is not a measure of skill or knowledge of this game. Players who have been playing this game for many hours are still hindered and crippled by RNG system. I’m not asking for “entitled” legendary. I’m simply saying that there should be another way to acquire 1/4 of legendary other than RNG.

You implied it when you scoffed at the notion that a Legendary is not a Luxury.

Because a Legendary isn’t a luxury? I fail to see how a Legendary can be a luxury when you compare it to Lambo and Ferrari. I also don’t see how you thought that I was going for “entitled” legendary when I only wanted to discuss how anet has been breaking their words about creating other ways to acquire precursor and refuse to intervene when its about precursors.

Because it is? A luxury good in real life is like a Lamborghini, or a Gucci purse. You don’t need it, but it commands status. In GW2, a luxury item is a Legendary weapon, or a Tormented skin.

In 2012, Colin referred to Legendary weapons as “Prestige gear”. It goes hand in hand with the idea that Legendary weapons are carrots on a very long stick. If you choose to get one, that’s your choice. And when you do get one, your character suddenly stands out in the crowd.

Legendary weapons are carrots on a very long stick but do you obtain luxury by RNG? Or do you work for it? And the difference between legendary weapons and luxury is that for latter, you either live in it or you don’t. Unlike legendary weapons which were meant to be “work” towards. And even if you decide to buy those luxury items, there are no RNG parts involved in acquisition methods. You pay money for what you get, unlike precursors which is 1/4 of the entire Legendary Recipe.

Um, you realize that you can buy Precursors, right? I’ve sold many in my day, so I know for a fact that people buy them.

Precursors are luxury items too.

phys.7689:

The mechanics of the solution that is currently in place, may or may not be the mechanics of a better solution.

By the rules of steam powered engines, they have certain limits on how effecient and powerful a steam powered engine can be. A better solution was a gasoline powered engine (at the time) which had different mechanics/limits. The next good solution may be a hyrdrogen cell engine, or something even more fundamentally different.

point is, from a problem solving point of view, the fact that the system as it currently stands cannot give various players competitive values, doesnt mean a different system/solution cannot.

They can institute different spread of value gained per activties, they can make activities that also take the increases in wealth gained for the task from other players, there is any number of possible solutions that use different mechanics.

first you identify what your problem/goals are, then you design a system that meets your needs/wants. If you start off married to certain mechanics, you will always be limited in your avialable solutions.

And we’re right back to where we were days, weeks, and months ago. Before you come up with solutions, you must first identify the problem. Because the economy is working as intended, there’s no problems here. That leads to the most obvious conclusion – the problem is a self imposed one. The economy and the Trading Post doesn’t have a problem, you have a problem with the economy and the Trading Post. But the error of this thinking is that if you come up with solutions to your problem, that only affects yourself, and doesn’t take into account everyone else in this game.

Edit – The “you” in my post is referring to all the TP complainers, and not directly at the player in the quote

Zoxea.9564:

“Prestige = Luxe”

Made my day

I’m glad you understand this.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Here’s the fundamental problem that HHR doesn’t understand (and I hope you’re not making this same mistake): Profits from the TP do not equal Rewards from Content. In order to be sure a Farmer can make more money than a TP trading player, Anet would need to put massive gates on the trading ability of players. Why? Because Farmers create wealth (currency and items) that didn’t exist before, so there are gates in place to keep inflation and currency devaluation in check. TP players only take the existing items and currency in the game, and trade it between each other, with 15% being deleted from the game entirely.

HHR doesn’t understand the differences between the open market (business) and rewards from content, and pushed John to respond directly to him. Then after his claims were dismissed, he keeps trying to push his misguided ideas. You cannot compare Apples to Airplanes.

So we go back to the current debate, where he wants to spread the wealth around because of the sense of Entitlement to “fair and balanced” wealth distribution.

So your whole argumentation boils down to your claim that if you wouldn’t be able to make that much gold, the economy would go to hell.

Actually, my whole argument can be summed up as follows:

1) You don’t understand why there’s a difference between Rewards from Content, and Profits from the TP. One creates wealth, the other trades existing wealth.

2) Punishing TP players by limiting their market potential is inherently bad.

3) Increasing Rewards from Content only serve to make TP players exponentially more wealthy, and is detrimental to the economy as a whole. Inflation would be out of control, so only the rich players would be able to survive.

TheFamster.7806:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TheFamster.7806:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TheFamster.7806:

This is funny how people compare a game item to real life luxury lol. Do you really have to justify the RNG in game by comparing your item to a real life luxury? Just because you compare a legendary to Lambo/Ferrari don’t even think for one second that is true. Legendaries are meant to be achieved by gamers while luxurious cars target different customers. Unless legendaries suddenly become available only by real life currency, please don’t make such ridiculous comparison

Please tell me where it says that all players are Entitled to a Legendary? Just because all players are capable of getting one, doesn’t mean they all deserve one.

I never said they are “entitled” Please do quote me on that usage of vocabulary. I said they should be achievable, which could mean from RNG to crafted/hunted. RNG is not a measure of skill or knowledge of this game. Players who have been playing this game for many hours are still hindered and crippled by RNG system. I’m not asking for “entitled” legendary. I’m simply saying that there should be another way to acquire 1/4 of legendary other than RNG.

You implied it when you scoffed at the notion that a Legendary is not a Luxury.

Because a Legendary isn’t a luxury? I fail to see how a Legendary can be a luxury when you compare it to Lambo and Ferrari. I also don’t see how you thought that I was going for “entitled” legendary when I only wanted to discuss how anet has been breaking their words about creating other ways to acquire precursor and refuse to intervene when its about precursors.

Because it is? A luxury good in real life is like a Lamborghini, or a Gucci purse. You don’t need it, but it commands status. In GW2, a luxury item is a Legendary weapon, or a Tormented skin.

In 2012, Colin referred to Legendary weapons as “Prestige gear”. It goes hand in hand with the idea that Legendary weapons are carrots on a very long stick. If you choose to get one, that’s your choice. And when you do get one, your character suddenly stands out in the crowd.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

In my opinion I would want more content that is challenging and rewarding based on the challenge you have to face. But I’m ok with ANet’s guideline to not reward skill that much. They just have to apply that guideline to their whole game, that includes the TP.

Ahem

You CANNOT compare rewards from drops to profits from the TP. They are two completely separate things. Like comparing apples to an airplane. Rewards from drops are newly created wealth that never existed in the game. Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% removed from the economy.
Once you understand why your thought process is flawed, you’ll realize that there will never be this “balance” you seek.

phys.7689:

Actually HHRs initial arguement was that people who are the best at other parts of the game should get paid more than people who play the TP. After various discussions, considerations, and some of the comments of JS he realized overall this was not feasible. That being said, his revised argument is that the top players of one playstyle should not be inferior to the top players of another playstyle.

This is not about spreading the wealth, What he really wants is merit to be the primary determinant of value. He is fine with a lot of people not getting a lot, if they dont put in effort, or they are not skilled.

Essentially he objects specifically to trade focused players having a different and scaling mechanic for their returns, while other modes are comparitively flat.

As for your merchant class ideaolgy, you once again are missing his real point. Anet decided that they didnt want people of skill to gain too much benefit over people without skill. If they didnt decide that, they could have made how much you get for say a dungeon run, be based on how many people failed it, or how well you did compared to other players.

They could have charged each player 1 gold to enter a dungeon, and how much you make in the end is based on your performance within. They could have put high value items behind difficult onjectives, or require you to be good.

HHR as far as i can tell would have little problem with that.

And in cases where the game is designed where skill is rewarded, the people with the most skill make as much or more than the merchants. Imagine if the top 1000 players were the main supplier for legendaries, then their wealth would probably rival if not defeat the highest TP barons.

Now, to be clear i am not saying these things should be put into place, I am using them to illustrate how the mercantile dominance is a case of design/philosophy and not a matter of fact.

Also i am using them to illustrate how HHR desire for merit based rewards is not anti capitalist exactly, and definately pretty far from communism/marxism or hand outs.

Here’s the fundamental problem that HHR doesn’t understand (and I hope you’re not making this same mistake): Profits from the TP do not equal Rewards from Content. In order to be sure a Farmer can make more money than a TP trading player, Anet would need to put massive gates on the trading ability of players. Why? Because Farmers create wealth (currency and items) that didn’t exist before, so there are gates in place to keep inflation and currency devaluation in check. TP players only take the existing items and currency in the game, and trade it between each other, with 15% being deleted from the game entirely.

HHR doesn’t understand the differences between the open market (business) and rewards from content, and pushed John to respond directly to him. Then after his claims were dismissed, he keeps trying to push his misguided ideas. You cannot compare Apples to Airplanes.

So we go back to the current debate, where he wants to spread the wealth around because of the sense of Entitlement to “fair and balanced” wealth distribution.

TheFamster.7806:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TheFamster.7806:

This is funny how people compare a game item to real life luxury lol. Do you really have to justify the RNG in game by comparing your item to a real life luxury? Just because you compare a legendary to Lambo/Ferrari don’t even think for one second that is true. Legendaries are meant to be achieved by gamers while luxurious cars target different customers. Unless legendaries suddenly become available only by real life currency, please don’t make such ridiculous comparison

Please tell me where it says that all players are Entitled to a Legendary? Just because all players are capable of getting one, doesn’t mean they all deserve one.

I never said they are “entitled” Please do quote me on that usage of vocabulary. I said they should be achievable, which could mean from RNG to crafted/hunted. RNG is not a measure of skill or knowledge of this game. Players who have been playing this game for many hours are still hindered and crippled by RNG system. I’m not asking for “entitled” legendary. I’m simply saying that there should be another way to acquire 1/4 of legendary other than RNG.

You implied it when you scoffed at the notion that a Legendary is not a Luxury.

phys.7689:

First of all, the concept of a legendary as a luxury item is debateable, especially within the framework of a game, where every thing you get is essentially a luxury.

Luxury: a condition or situation of great comfort, ease, and wealth; something that is expensive and not necessary; something that is helpful or welcome and that is not usually or always available

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/luxury

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

.

Yeah, keep on hating. Go ahead and hate me so much that you don’t even notice how you’re missing every point made. Oh, you already missing them…

Not sure if you realized it or not, but John already dismissed your claims in the other thread.

TheFamster.7806:

This is funny how people compare a game item to real life luxury lol. Do you really have to justify the RNG in game by comparing your item to a real life luxury? Just because you compare a legendary to Lambo/Ferrari don’t even think for one second that is true. Legendaries are meant to be achieved by gamers while luxurious cars target different customers. Unless legendaries suddenly become available only by real life currency, please don’t make such ridiculous comparison

Please tell me where it says that all players are Entitled to a Legendary? Just because all players are capable of getting one, doesn’t mean they all deserve one.

HRR’s argument is that he wants Anet to spread the wealth. Why? Because he’s unable or unwilling to put in effort to make money. The Merchant class players are well off, because they’re smart about business. They take existing items, and find ways to profit off of market. The Labor class players who go out and farm/mine for goods will never be able to attain the same levels of wealth that the Merchant class has. This is because the Labor class player gets items that never existed before (rewards from content), and sells these to the Merchant class player. Anet has gates/limits on how much new wealth is added to the game.

The current debate at hand is that some feel that the Merchant class makes too much money, and that the Labor class makes too little. HHR’s views on this is that Anet should reduce the Merchant class’s income, and increase the Labor classes’ income to find a balance. Basically, punishing the smart market players, in favor of spreading the wealth to the farming players.

Zoxea.9564:

And no, the legendary weapons are not luxury cars…

Legendary weapons are, it’s magic: “Legendary weapons”. You know? Being a hero, explore the world, killing people in the mists, explore dungeons and other’s…

Legendaries are Magical LUXURY weapons.

phys.7689:

this is compounded because everyone must TP but people can opt out of most other playstyles. IE more newbs to get ganked for profit in the trading game.

The flaw to your thinking is that you believe we “must” use the TP. You are incorrect. You want to use the TP because you want to get instant gratification, rather than farming for it. If you dislike free trade so much, you don’t have to participate in it. The game offers everything you want already, you just need to put in the time to get it.

The debate at hand is basically “anti-capitalism”. There is a reason why Communism doesn’t work.

Zoxea.9564:

Kodumio.1234 played 24 hours without stopping. He received the ingredient “precursor”.

Random.9876 played for 24 days, 1 hour per day. He did not get the ingredient “precursor” as prices increased.
Random.9876 continued, it replays for 24 days, 1 hour per day. He did not get the ingredient “precursor” as prices increased.

Random.9876 worked 48 hours and is not paid for his work.

Colin Johanson said:
We still plan to do both new legendary weapons, as well as a clear path (on top of the current random chance) to gain precursors which players can see their progress and understand how much work they have left to do to gain it.

It’s time to offer the guaranteed to get the ingredient “precursor” because many people work hard for NOTHING.

Or you can buy a Precursor on the TP for less than 100 Gold. That’s your best option until the Precursor crafting comes out. But as I warned in the past, don’t expect the crafting to be easy or cheap.

Give it a rest HHR. John has already addressed your incorrect assumptions on how the TP works in the other thread. There’s no sense in arguing that “the world is flat” when the reality is the world is round.

John Smith.4610:

I’m glad people are enjoying this mini Q&A, it’s great to see people interested!

We need to thank YOU for taking the time to answer these questions. You’re probably one of most approachable Anet employees on the forums. I wish all Anet people would be as active as you in interacting with the player base.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

That’s like telling Microsoft that they make too much money, so they should be punished for it.

This philosophical debate is now turning into a Marxism vs Capitalism one.

…

Ok, please forgive me the following outrage:
THIS IS A kittenING GAME, WHICH HAS BEEN MADE TO HAVE kittenING FUN!

The game IS fun. The Trading Post is just one aspect of the game, made as a tool to facilitate trade in a virtual economy. You cannot balance players’ desires for items, nor can you impede transactions made for profit. Who are you to tell a player that he can’t sell an item for X amount of Gold? Who are you to tell a player that they shouldn’t be allowed to pay X amount of Gold, even if they’re willing to do so? Just because John Doe makes 1,000 Gold, and you cannot, doesn’t mean you have to punish John Doe for his ability to make money. Arguments for such a punishment reeks of jealousy.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I can name you one already: precursors. The supply of precursors is that low that the demand from player who have gained extreme wealth is higher tahn the actual supply. If those player wouldn’t exsist, the price would be lower. The reason why a Lamborghini is that expensive is because there are enough people out there who have the money to buy it. Otherwise the price would be lower.
And I don’t want ANet to say “Sorry, you’re enjoying traidnign too much, thus we have to stop it entirely.”. I want them to say “We appreciate that you enjoy traiding so much but we have to balance the game, so you can, once you get bored of the TP, go to other gamemodes without losing half of your income.”. Or “We appreciate that you enjoy traiding so much but there are items that should keep some prestige and if you’re able to afford one of those items every month then there is something odd.”.

That’s like telling Microsoft that they make too much money, so they should be punished for it.

This philosophical debate is now turning into a Marxism vs Capitalism one.

mtpelion.4562:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

And it should be relevant to ANet since monopolies are always bad and becuase ANet should try to balance the game. The traiding post now is like the warrior was in PvP: dominating. One could argue that all the players should stop whining and should play warriors instead. But that’s neither balanced nor fun.

There is no monopoly in play. ArenaNet cannot attempt to balance players’ subjective decisions to trade items with objective rewards from content. It just isn’t possible. That’d be like ArenaNet saying “Sorry HHR, but you enjoy PvE too much so we’re going to force you to play more PvP from now on”.

When I say “I want to sell this apple for $1” and Smooth Penguin says “I want to buy that apple for $1” and we make a trade, YOU are not impacted in any way as YOU are not a party to the transaction. Our deal does not help or hurt you or ArenaNet in any way, thus our deal (the TP) is not relevant to how much money you get paid at your job. They are distinctly unrelated and cannot be compared without the result being nonsense.

And if I have that apple, and someone else is willing to pay me $1.50 for it, I’m more than willing to sell it to that player.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

One could argue that all the players should stop whining and should play warriors instead. But that’s neither balanced nor fun.

The TP wasn’t made for fun. It’s a tool that allows players to trade with others on an open market. Because some of us find trading to be fun, doesn’t mean that it was designed as such.

Ayrilana.1396:

Since this doesn’t seem to be sinking in, I’ll say it multiple times in bolded text as repetition is key.

I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill.

Please actually read what I say rather than make up some fictional argument that you think is coming from me.

He’s actually talking about his Entitlement to having as much Gold as someone who works kitten the Trading Post. So if he’s skilled at farming Grawls, he feels he should make as much money as someone flipping Precursors, because he puts in as much “effort” as the next guy.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Quick tip: Don’t use google translator, it doesn’t work.
So you are saying that playing the traiding post is the “endgame” which requires uber-skill and everyone who’s not participating is either too bad or too stupid. Thanks for that explanation, fortunately you don’t make the rules here.

There’s a difference between being “stupid” and “not understanding mechanics”. I’m not saying anyone who doesn’t play the TP is “stupid”, but rather people who understand it have an advantage. Just like in real life. Stock brokers have more advantage in trading on Wall Street, than the hotdog vendor selling food at the ballpark.

I doubt Anet is offering refunds for duplicate Legendary crafting. Your friends are probably trolling you into submitting a ticket.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

@ Smooth Penguin:
Thanks, I really needed a good laugh.

Because you said you were German in a previous post, allow me to use Google translate to help:

Da jedoch der Trading Post ist ein integraler Bestandteil des GW2 Welt, die Menschen wie uns, die verstehen, Geschäfts-und virtuellen Ökonomien haben den Vorteil gegenüber anderen Spielern.

Jerus.4350:

Ayrilana.1396:

Lothirieth.3408:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’ve gotten multiple Precursors, and each one I didn’t buy. Everything is working as intended. The only thing that’s broken is your assumption that you’re “Entitled” to a Precursor for a low cost. This argument is similar to a Middle Class single dad wanting to buy a Lamborghini, but that car price is “broken”.

Why do you always take things to such extremes and purposefully mischaracterise people and/or their desires?

People want a more concrete way to work towards a precursor, then from you we usually get something like: “All you want to be is lazy and have things handed to you!!!!” Your trolling is tiresome.

Precursors are a luxury item like a Lamborghini. He’s not being extreme in his example. Would you prefer that they be craftable but account bound?

Man if I could randomly have my paycheck yield a Lambo I’d be so happy. But… it doesn’t work that way But it does in this game. Luxury items based on luck seems to warrant at least some frustration.

Can you imagine what it would be like if McDonalds had an RNG that had a chance to reward a Lamborghini for each hour you worked? There would be zergs of people trying to apply for a job.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Now let’s end the discussion here because it’s just a matter of opinions from now on.

Actually, we’re experts in this field, and thus our points are all facts. Yours is the only opinion, which is incorrectly placed because you don’t understand the difference between Rewards from content, and Profit from the TP. Two completely, fundamentally different things. But I don’t fault you for not understanding how an MMO economy works. We, as players, aren’t required to be knowledgeable in business or virtual economies. However, because the Trading Post is an integral part of the GW2 world, people like us who do understand business and virtual economies have the advantage over other players.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Even if traiding post flipping requires you to be really good at it, requires twice the amount of engagement you need to solo a dungeon, or to be good at the “endgame” content the game offers, that would only justify twice the margin one could get through playing ordinary PvE, aka. a stable maximum-reward curve and not an exponential reward curve.

You CANNOT compare rewards from drops to profits from the TP. They are two completely separate things. Like comparing apples to an airplane. Rewards from drops are newly created wealth that never existed in the game. Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% removed from the economy.
Once you understand why your thought process is flawed, you’ll realize that there will never be this “balance” you seek.

Déjà vu

Lothirieth.3408:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’ve gotten multiple Precursors, and each one I didn’t buy. Everything is working as intended. The only thing that’s broken is your assumption that you’re “Entitled” to a Precursor for a low cost. This argument is similar to a Middle Class single dad wanting to buy a Lamborghini, but that car price is “broken”.

Why do you always take things to such extremes and purposefully mischaracterise people and/or their desires?

Because this debate is over the desire of the OP to have a luxury item, my real life example fits perfectly. If you want a Louis Vuitton purse, you have to pay the price. If you want that Lamborghini, you pay the price. If you can’t afford it, either work hard so you can afford it, or seek something else.

There’s an old saying: Live within your means. If you work for $10/hour, don’t expect to be walking around in a Prada suit. But in this game, as with real life, you can if you work hard towards that goal.

Cameirus.8407:

hey, if they want to do an armour set with pretty much naked males and females I dont care.

I just dont get why they are so different as to be totally different sets between genders on what is supposed to be the same costume….

I’m totally with you on this one. My male norn really wants to wear a skirt to go with his princess wand, but that’s reserved for only females. I really hope we can in the future.

Zoxea.9564:

They promised quests or craft which offers guaranteed to get sooner or later. The concept of GW2 is: You can stop the game and come back later, your work is not lost and you can continue where you left. This is the guaranteed.
http://www.gw2shop.net/topic-1532-annonce-colin-johanson-reaborde-la-question-des-precurseur

He was speaking in terms of story. In terms of the economy, if you stop playing the game, you’re left FAR behind in terms of wealth. Just like in real life. If you quit your job for 6 months, and your friend keeps working, guess who would have more money.

Zoxea.9564:

Impossible for them to follow the price in the time.) is totally broken because the price of precursor is extremly broken days after days, months after months.

Let me address this directly. I’m in game, and I can put in a Buy Order for a Precursor (Venom) for 71 Gold, or I can buy it outright for 95 Gold. That is nowhere near your 1540 Gold price quote. So the prices are not “broken” as you claim. You just want the wrong Precursor.

phys.7689:

lol, you i sometimes wonder if you know what you present to world. I assume so. John Doe is minium wage working for profit the same way Steve Jobs is, its just steve jobs is a lot better at it.

There is no qualitative difference between steve jobs work and what he gained versus minimum wage work man and his gains other than the magnitude of the gains.

I was speaking on HHR’s sense of Entitlement to even/balanced wealth. He feels that John Doe should be Entitled to making the same amount of money that Steve Jobs makes.

Back to the point at hand. He doesn’t understand that by increasing Rewards from content to match Profit potential from TP trading, it’s actually detrimental to the game. 1) Too much newly created items devalues them, and 2) Too much newly created coins devalues the currency, and 3) It creates more of a sense of imbalance, as TP Trader profits go up exponentially as the more money exists in game, the more money they make.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ok, so you quoted a dictionary. Now please tell me what is the “reward” from the TP? Where is your recognition of service, effort, or achievement?

You put time and gold (<— efford) into the TP and get gold as reward if you’re successful.

No, you just described Profit

“Profit: money that is made in a business, through investing, etc., after all the costs and expenses are paid : a financial gain”

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profit

Reward includes profit. Profit describes the financial gain of a business, reward describes the gain of anything for doing anything. Still, they can be compared. You do stuff and you get stuff based on the stuff you did.

Aha! But in an MMO, the “Reward” is drops and acquired wealth via content. “Profit” is from trading those “Rewards” on the TP for a positive gain.

Understand now?

Quick edit – You feel like you should have the same access to Rewards from drops, as we do with Profits from the TP. Taking that into account, do you feel that it’s fair that Steve Jobs made hundreds of millions of dollars selling iPads, while John Doe made minimum wage working at McDonalds crafting burgers?

I’ve gotten multiple Precursors, and each one I didn’t buy. Everything is working as intended. The only thing that’s broken is your assumption that you’re “Entitled” to a Precursor for a low cost. This argument is similar to a Middle Class single dad wanting to buy a Lamborghini, but that car price is “broken”.

Edit – I just realized that I did buy one Precursor (The Lover), so I apologize for my mistake. All the others were gotten from RNG.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ok, so you quoted a dictionary. Now please tell me what is the “reward” from the TP? Where is your recognition of service, effort, or achievement?

You put time and gold (<— efford) into the TP and get gold as reward if you’re successful.

No, you just described Profit

“Profit: money that is made in a business, through investing, etc., after all the costs and expenses are paid : a financial gain”

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profit

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ayrilana.1396:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

In the spirit of the debate at hand, can someone tell me the current price for Venom, the Precursor for Kraitkin?

lol

You know they’re going to shrug it off when they see the price and say it doesn’t matter.

He can shrug it off all he wants, but it counters his claim that Precursor prices are broken.

Or, it just shows that underwater combat/content is not loved

That has nothing to do with prices being broken though. If the OP wants a Precursor so bad, he can easily get one for a fraction of the cost of Dusk.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’ve been extremely busy at work, but I needed to take some time to respond to this.

You CANNOT compare rewards from drops to profits from the TP. They are two completely separate things. Like comparing apples to an airplane. Rewards from drops are newly created wealth that never existed in the game. Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% removed from the economy.

Once you understand why your thought process is flawed, you’ll realize that there will never be this “balance” you seek.

Edit – One additional flaw in your post. TP trading, as with real life, has exponentially more risk than PvEing. If you fail to kill the Shadow Behemoth, the game doesn’t take away Gold from your bank. If you fail at an investment on the TP, you lose value, thus lose money.

One more time, just for you:
The fact that everything except the traiding post is creating new value is a reason for keeping the creation of new value in check, thus limiting the reward.
However that is no argument to justify unlimited reward from the traiding post.

Because you don’t understand the fundamental differences between rewards from content, and profit from the TP, you continue to make this incorrect association.
The Trading Post does not offer rewards. I’m not sure if this is just a language barrier that’s preventing you from understanding this.

“Reward: A thing given in recognition of service, effort, or achievement”
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/reward

I don’t know what you understand under the term “reward”, but that’s how I’m using that word. Actually, I do know but I don’t care.

Ok, so you quoted a dictionary. Now please tell me what is the “reward” from the TP? Where is your recognition of service, effort, or achievement?

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’ve been extremely busy at work, but I needed to take some time to respond to this.

You CANNOT compare rewards from drops to profits from the TP. They are two completely separate things. Like comparing apples to an airplane. Rewards from drops are newly created wealth that never existed in the game. Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% removed from the economy.

Once you understand why your thought process is flawed, you’ll realize that there will never be this “balance” you seek.

Edit – One additional flaw in your post. TP trading, as with real life, has exponentially more risk than PvEing. If you fail to kill the Shadow Behemoth, the game doesn’t take away Gold from your bank. If you fail at an investment on the TP, you lose value, thus lose money.

One more time, just for you:
The fact that everything except the traiding post is creating new value is a reason for keeping the creation of new value in check, thus limiting the reward.
However that is no argument to justify unlimited reward from the traiding post.

Because you don’t understand the fundamental differences between rewards from content, and profit from the TP, you continue to make this incorrect association.
The Trading Post does not offer rewards. I’m not sure if this is just a language barrier that’s preventing you from understanding this.

Ayrilana.1396:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

In the spirit of the debate at hand, can someone tell me the current price for Venom, the Precursor for Kraitkin?

lol

You know they’re going to shrug it off when they see the price and say it doesn’t matter.

He can shrug it off all he wants, but it counters his claim that Precursor prices are broken.

Negativity.5801:

I was looking at skins I wanted for my ranger and apparently the quiver I want was a limited time only thing on TBLC. So does TBLC ever cycle these limited items or re-release them from time to time or does Anet just hate money?

Rox’s Quiver was released maybe 3 times so far. If you see something you like, you should buy it right away.

Behellagh.1468:

You didn’t answer my questions phys. Is a player seeking to make the most on a sale, exploiting buyers. Not talking flippers, just sellers. Again with buyers, are buyers seeking to spend the least exploiting sellers?

I think in his mind, all business is exploitative. A supermarket selling milk is exploiting the customer’s needs to feed their children breakfast, or something like that.

Just found this thread, and wanted to point some things out.

First you say:

Sytherek.7689:

RNG is bad for MMOs.

Then you go on to say:

Sytherek.7689:

Here, just so it’s clear: RNG is good.

What this comes down to is, RNG is bad, when you don’t get what you want. But RNG is good, because you got what you wanted, thus won the “gamble”.

For you to claim that you were a “a developer on AAA titles and specifically, MMOs”, then you must have some basic understanding on why reward structures include RNG. Or perhaps your “AAA MMO” didn’t have a global economy to deal with? Everything is interconnected when there’s an economy involved. Currency values, item values, etc.

Responses are leaning more towards the idea of freebies being ok, and P2W not. Fair enough. Allow me to edit the thread title to then more accurately frame the discussion.

In the spirit of the debate at hand, can someone tell me the current price for Venom, the Precursor for Kraitkin?

Sometimes, getting extra goodies in addition to the convenience is a greater incentive than the convenience alone.

The current model is indeed a good one, but I’m suggesting ways to reward who spend real money on microtransactions. These players are on a higher tier of importance, in terms of revenue, than non-paying players. Creating small incentives can help drive sales of Gems, thus increasing the bottom line of NCSoft. Minor P2W items was just one idea. Others liked the idea of getting some freebies that didn’t affect game play.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

eithinan.9841:

(1) You do not get to decide how the game is supposed to be played.

(2) You should not allow other peoples success in life affect your own self worth. And playing the TP is an mmo activity as JS has said. addendum

(3) but it does NOT carry the same risk

(4) You have a problem with the primary currency in GW2 having value unlike every other mmo out there.

1. I am not saying how the game has to be played, I am saying that the same effort put into the game has to be rewarded equaly.

2. My chosen diction wasn’t the optimal one but it is unsatisfying to invest as much into the game as others do, yet some ways to spend time are way more benificial. I disagree with John but he’s the dev, so it’s his answer that matters.

3. We had a long discussion about that and it boils down to the fact that playing the traiding post involves way less risk than some of you want it to look like.

4. I have neither a problem with the acquisition of gold, nor (for the most part) that one could buy almost everything with it. I have a problem with the reward curve.
Other activities have a static reward curve, as more time you invest in one thing, as more gold you get. However you can only invest 24 hour a day maximum.
Playing the traiding post has an exponential reward curve, there is no limit for the gold you spend on the TP.

I’ve been extremely busy at work, but I needed to take some time to respond to this.

You CANNOT compare rewards from drops to profits from the TP. They are two completely separate things. Like comparing apples to an airplane. Rewards from drops are newly created wealth that never existed in the game. Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% removed from the economy.

Once you understand why your thought process is flawed, you’ll realize that there will never be this “balance” you seek.

Edit – One additional flaw in your post. TP trading, as with real life, has exponentially more risk than PvEing. If you fail to kill the Shadow Behemoth, the game doesn’t take away Gold from your bank. If you fail at an investment on the TP, you lose value, thus lose money.

I hope they open up Fossils for TP trading. I have one that I don’t even want.