Guild Wars 2

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

Before you go off and make claims, you need to be sure you fully understand what you’re talking about. Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.

Regarding Gems. There are two types of Gems, per se. The ones that players like me purchase, and the ones non-paying players exchange in-game Gold for. The Gems that I purchase never existed before. They’re created out of thin air, thus brand new to the economy. Gems non-paying customers exchange for already existed when Anet first opened their servers. The Gem Exchange had a finite amount of Gems already in the pot for players to exchange for. Over time, the amount in the pot goes up and down, depending on the transactions made by players (note – Gem Store purchases destroy Gems. They don’t go into the pot). If I exchange my Gems for Gold, my Gems go into the pot. So now the pot has a mix of newly created Gems, and existing Gems from the beginning of the game.

With that said, non-paying players do not generate any revenue for Anet/NCSoft. The money comes from players like me. In business, paying customers drive the economy. Sure Anet finds all the players to be important, or there wouldn’t be a game to begin with. There would be a lot less players in game if only the microtransaction players were in there. We all get to enjoy the “free” content Anet provides, and the paying players help to sustain the status quo.

In order to sustain corporate profits, you must continue to bring in new monies. That’s the purpose of a for-profit organization. My money goes to employee salaries, overhead, R&D, dividends for shareholders, etc. This is how a business works.

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

As per the User Agreement, Gems have no value. When you’re buying Gems, you’re not buying something physical, nor are you buying something of value. You paid Anet for the privilege of accessing exclusive content that has Entertainment Value. Once the Gems are in your account, you have no rights to them, and Anet has every right to take it away from you at their discretion.

The User Agreement means that you cannot trade gems back into cash. That does not negate the initial monetary value Anet has placed on them of 800 for $10. Just b/c the value can fluctuate doesn’t mean it never exists.

I think you are lumping all monetary value into one circumstance and ignoring the rest.

Once you purchase the Gems, they no longer hold any value. You’re paying for the rights to acquire exclusive content, and Anet gives you these virtual credits to limit you on now much you can access. I could buy 4,000 Gems right now, and Anet would have every right to take it away without giving me a refund. Not to say that they would, but rather that they can.

Nerelith.7360:

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

Gems have a monetary value to ArenaNet prior to their sale. Once they are sold, they no longer have a monetary value (just a monetary cost) since they can no longer be used to acquire anything of value.

Except that you can use gems to buy in game gold that has value.

Even the Federal government thought so enough to look into the issue.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/06/19/congressional-report-says-you-may-owe-taxes-on-your-wow-income/

Another mistake you’re making is that you assume that our government representatives know what they’re doing in the first place. This idea is silly, and is doomed to fail in any economy. I already pay taxes on my Gems that I buy. I’m not paying taxes on anything else.

Nerelith.7360:

You said before that Games with Microtransactions have only two types of players " Paying customers" and " Non-paying customers."

You are 100 % right, I can agree with you on this.

The problem is, you misunderstand who a paying customer is, mainly because Gw2 was released AFTER the “Extra-credits” episode you saw was aired.

There are Paying Customers and Non-paying customers.

Non-paying customers bought the box, and never made a single purchase off the gem store.

We agree on that.

Paying customers Bought the box, and buy items off the gem-store, with cash, and in-game-gold.

Both are paying customers.

The cash buyers buy gems with their real world cash. That is when Anet gets their real world cash.

The Gold-> Gem converters paid for their Gems with Gold, which Anet now can sell to others In exchange for gems. Gems that the cash to gem purchasers bought with cash. THAT is the moment Anet gets it’s real world cash off a gold -> gem conversion.

The ONLY reason Anet has Gold to sell for gems to players that bought gems with cash is because a Player sold it’s Gold for gems.

If no one bought gems with in game gold the price paid for gems with cash would climb so high , that it would be so prohibitive, that the people that purchase gems with cash, simply to buy gold would stop buying gold, which meas eventually they would stop buying gems with cash.

THIS is the reason Stockholders care, that players buy gems for in game gold, it gives their company a product to sell.

Saying that Anet only sells Gems is … well, trying to be charitable… ignorant.

Anet sells it’s Virtual Goods and Services and offers them so they can be paid for in different ways. Some pay for them with cash, some pay for them with in game gold. Anet also makes Money by being the Middle man between players In in game gold exchanges.

last example. Imagine 2 players come to Anet One has $10,000 they want to exchange for 10,000 gems, but ONLY if they can Immediately, and Instantly exchange it for 10,000 Gold. And wants to be taken care of first. If Anet takes care of another customer first he will walk away.

Problem: In this example Anet only has 1,000 gold.

The Other comes to Anet with 10,000 gold that it wants to exchange for 5,000 gems. The problem is, he also wishjes to be seen first, and if Anet sees anyone before him, he will simply walk away with his Gold.

Whom do you think Anet will see first? telling the other " have a Nice day, see you tomorrow?"

It’s fairly obvious. You cannot sell what you do not have. In Game gold is inventory. Just because it has not realized it’s value by being sold does not mean it has no value. Imagine if you had an inventory of 20,000 sweaters that sold for $19.99 each and told the IRS that those sweaters had no value because they had not been sold yet?

hmmm…. Something to think about

Back to lurking

Ok, I see the confusion. When I say “paying customers”, I’m referring to players like myself who purchase Gems. “Non-paying customers” paid once, but do not buy Gems.

Now onto your other misunderstanding. Gold → Gem exchanges have no monetary value. Period. Anet makes no money from players exchanging in-game Gold for Gems. Why is this so hard to understand? If a player exchanged their Gems for Gold, those Gems now in the pot are not resold to players like me. The Gem Exchange is separate from buying Gems with real money. Gems purchased with real money are created out of thin air.

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

Before you go off and make claims, you need to be sure you fully understand what you’re talking about. Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.

Regarding Gems. There are two types of Gems, per se. The ones that players like me purchase, and the ones non-paying players exchange in-game Gold for. The Gems that I purchase never existed before. They’re created out of thin air, thus brand new to the economy. Gems non-paying customers exchange for already existed when Anet first opened their servers. The Gem Exchange had a finite amount of Gems already in the pot for players to exchange for. Over time, the amount in the pot goes up and down, depending on the transactions made by players (note – Gem Store purchases destroy Gems. They don’t go into the pot). If I exchange my Gems for Gold, my Gems go into the pot. So now the pot has a mix of newly created Gems, and existing Gems from the beginning of the game.

With that said, non-paying players do not generate any revenue for Anet/NCSoft. The money comes from players like me. In business, paying customers drive the economy. Sure Anet finds all the players to be important, or there wouldn’t be a game to begin with. There would be a lot less players in game if only the microtransaction players were in there. We all get to enjoy the “free” content Anet provides, and the paying players help to sustain the status quo.

In order to sustain corporate profits, you must continue to bring in new monies. That’s the purpose of a for-profit organization. My money goes to employee salaries, overhead, R&D, dividends for shareholders, etc. This is how a business works.

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

As per the User Agreement, Gems have no value. When you’re buying Gems, you’re not buying something physical, nor are you buying something of value. You paid Anet for the privilege of accessing exclusive content that has Entertainment Value. Once the Gems are in your account, you have no rights to them, and Anet has every right to take it away from you at their discretion.

phys.7689:

the fact anet can sell people monopoly money, means monoply money has value. If you cant understand that concept, then you will never be able to understand what the business model is all about, and why it actually works.

Monopoly money has no monetary value. You can’t take it to a store, and expect to buy anything with it.

phys.7689:

as, well every gem to gold transaction brings anet a % of the amount exchanged.

Wrong again. I think that until you have an understanding of how businesses work, you’ll keep having these incorrect thoughts about business mechanics. Kinda like how I don’t go to a doctor to fix my car engine, or go to a veterinarian to ask how to grow plants. So you may be an expert on how to play the game, but not an expert on how the game works.

Altered Dimension.2834:

~~~ snip ~~~

The Devs already gave official word, yet you question it? Macros are not allowed, period. If you decide to use one, that’s up to you. If the Devs catch you and decide to perma ban your account, that’s up to them. At that point, they would have every right, since you’d be breaking the terms you agreed to. And one cannot say that Anet is ok with it should a Dev give you a break and not ban you. That would have been a warning of sorts, and you can still be banned for further used of a 3rd party macro program.

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

Before you go off and make claims, you need to be sure you fully understand what you’re talking about. Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.

Regarding Gems. There are two types of Gems, per se. The ones that players like me purchase, and the ones non-paying players exchange in-game Gold for. The Gems that I purchase never existed before. They’re created out of thin air, thus brand new to the economy. Gems non-paying customers exchange for already existed when Anet first opened their servers. The Gem Exchange had a finite amount of Gems already in the pot for players to exchange for. Over time, the amount in the pot goes up and down, depending on the transactions made by players (note – Gem Store purchases destroy Gems. They don’t go into the pot). If I exchange my Gems for Gold, my Gems go into the pot. So now the pot has a mix of newly created Gems, and existing Gems from the beginning of the game.

With that said, non-paying players do not generate any revenue for Anet/NCSoft. The money comes from players like me. In business, paying customers drive the economy. Sure Anet finds all the players to be important, or there wouldn’t be a game to begin with. There would be a lot less players in game if only the microtransaction players were in there. We all get to enjoy the “free” content Anet provides, and the paying players help to sustain the status quo.

In order to sustain corporate profits, you must continue to bring in new monies. That’s the purpose of a for-profit organization. My money goes to employee salaries, overhead, R&D, dividends for shareholders, etc. This is how a business works.

To be honest, allowing small groups to do large scale raid content cheapens the event. I get that you want to be able to participate in it, esp. if you get locked out of a hardcapped map. And with my arguments against this in previous threads, if you allow a boss to scale that dramatically, bugs can occur, and 50 players would be DPSing a target scaled to 10.

Edit – to elaborate on my first point, large scale raids should stay large scale. If a boss is allowed to be scaled down to 10 players, what’s the point in even making content specifically for the large raid communities.

Booey Bubblehead.4890:

There is always so much chat in game about people wanting Cantha brought back to the game and I honestly have to say I don’t understand why.

In my opinion, in Guild Wars, the Canthan humans you could create were the least physically attractive in terms of their features which seemed to be over exaggerated. Of course this is personal taste as with everything in the game world.

Additionally, I did not care for the map areas of Cantha, especially the more urban type areas where one could get lost for hours and never make any progress except for going in circles and becoming really aggravated while doing so. I not so affectionately referred to these areas as the rooftops and it seemed I was forever lost in the rooftops not making any progress.

Guess I don’t personally see the attachment players have to Cantha.

Cantha had Alliance Battles, and allowed alliances to own towns. One of the many reasons we want it back.

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Didn’t Guild Wars 1 have Katana swords (1 handed)?

GW1 also had Cantha, but that’s for another thread.

Zaxares.5419:

That’s why I’ve always advocated Tequatl and the Wurm scaling down so they can be completed by smaller groups (say, as few as 20 at Teq, or 10 people at each Wurm head). This is NOT to say that they should be made easier; the complexity and coordination needed to complete the fights are still there. It’s just that Teq and the Wurm no longer have such gargantuan health bars that it takes almost the entire map’s worth of players to take them down.

Teq and the Great Wurm were designed for large coordinated groups. This is the only hardcore content we have in this game. Please don’t suggest Anet take that away from us.

Tyeme.6589:

It’s been my experience that the server in each bracket with the highest WvW population wins. There is very little real doubt about who is going to win week to week, or each bracket of the tourney’s. Five defenders have no chance of stopping a 20+ man zerg. Servers are buying and selling guilds in order to “load” their server with overwhelming odds.

Servers that have lower WvW populations are giving up. People who might otherwise compete either “join the bandwagon”, or find other content, or quit rather than become bags in an unequal “competition”.

I think it would be beneficial in the long run to incorporate sliding population caps on the borderlands portion or the WvW maps. Basically, each attacking side can only have as many people in a borderland as there are defenders in +5 increments. (the highest settings would last for 30 minutes so defenders could not just abandon their bl and force people off by going from 31 defenders to 5)

So, if blue has 5 defenders on their borderland map, red and green can only have 5 invaders each. If blue has 11 defenders, red and green could have 15 each. Blue might still be outnumbered by the combined forces of red and green, they still have a chance to defend at least a small portion of the home territory.

As it stands now, if blue (a small WvW population server) can only muster 5 defenders, either red or green can simply zerg in with 30 invaders and take over everything in a very short time.

Long term, if the green server can muster 200 people 24/7, while red and blue can only muster 10 people 24/7, green will still win by owning EB and their own BL, plus portions of red and blues BL’s.

However, there will be long ques to invade red and blue BL’s by green. 180 of greens WvW population will get little map time fighting. Green will complain a lot, spend a lot of time in EotM and get bored. Eventually, if they want to actually participate in WvW on a regular basis, they’ll need to xfer to the red or blue (less WvW populated) servers.

Of course, this would work better if EotM did not exist, or at least didn’t give WvW experience.

The same suggestion comes up time and time again. Doing something like this punishes players who do want to WvW, based on the actions/decisions of opponents who don’t want to WvW. This will never be implemented.

Just transfer to another server, if the one you’re on isn’t active.

I want katanas AND odachis in game, sword and greatsword respectively.

pdavis.8031:

Not bad….I like the first idea. But I thought that a similar mechanic had been, or was going to be, implemented for mega bosses like teq and the jungle wurm? Where guilds can but the event. All they would need do to is organize with other guilds and anyone who wanted to join in before hand and do it then.

Guilds with full upgrades can start a World Event at any point outside of the set spawn timers. I love that we have that option, but it does nothing in terms of actually organizing the raid. Selling Private Shards would allow for a segregated map that only friends and guildies can enter. Like the private arenas in SPvP, only instead of passwords, you need an invite from a map owner.

Kohlteth.3715:

OR ….. They could do like other games do where you can actually rent private servers, for guilds etc, like Battlefield does … do not flame me, just a suggestion, it has been working for them for years !

Isn’t that what I suggested in my opening post, or does Battlefield do something completely different? Like instead of renting a map shard, you rent a world?

This is a good suggestion for future reference. I had no idea posting GW2 links in the forum gave that warning.

Ensign.2189:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

People with that mindset are not who corporate NCSoft has in mind. It’s people who do spend real money on microtransactions that matter.

With the way the exchange works, players who trade gold for gems are also worth catering to; they act as the counterparty for purchases of gems to convert to gold, which directly benefits A.Net.

Anyone who spends gems in the gem store, regardless of whether they buy them with gold or a credit card, is their target audience.

From a business perspective, all customers are important. However, if I were a shareholder, my priority is that the company finds a way to keep Gem-buying players buying. Remember, not all of us exchange Gems for Gold. I used to do that in the beginning, when I was speculating on the ratios, and trying to profit off of the exchange. That didn’t work too well for me in the long run.

I would like to open the floor to some discussion on new mechanics for maps. There are a couple of issues that bothers players: Disconnetions and Raid organization.

Disconnections

This is something that nearly all players hate – being on a full map with your friends, and then DCing out. By the time you log back in, your map server slot is taken by someone else. For instance, say you’re with your guild doing the Great Wurm. Your groups are doing well, but all of a sudden, up pops an error message. You try to log back in, and now you’re in a different map server IP. This is beyond frustrating for two reasons. 1) When you DC, you lose your slot, and 2) If you’re not in the map, you’re actually hoping someone DCs so that you have a chance to steal their slot and get in.

The solution to this is a simple idea, but probably a headache to code. All players who disconnect from their map are allowed a short time to reconnect back into the same map. Let’s start with a generous 5 minutes. So upon DCing, the timer starts, and your account is queued on the map server IP, allowing you to reconnect back into your server slot. If you don’t reconnect within the 5 minutes, the slot opens to anyone else wanting to get in. The prerequisite to this would be that you need to error out, and not manually log or switch characters. And the limitations to this would be that you need to log back in on the same character that was DC’d in the first place. If you swap out characters, you automatically lose your queue to get back in. If I remember correctly, GW1 had a similar mechanic for when I used to HoH. DCing from your group while holding Halls was basically a death sentence for everyone.

Raid Organization

By Dwayna’s skirt, the current mechanics are a pain in the rear to organize with. I fully understand that Megaservers allow for the non-organized players to enjoy content with other players, but us community/raid groups need something to help us stay together. I’ve been against this idea for a while, but after all these months, I’m changing my mind: Sell us private map shards for Gems. Let us rent time for a map, with the map owner being allowed to invite and/or kick players as they see fit. This Shard Consumable needs to be priced high enough so that only the dedicated groups can afford it, and not so low that everyone and their grandmother is spawning new server map IPs. I know that would be taxing on your server system. You could even sell it in tiers: 1 hour, 6 hours, or 24 hours rentals. And after the timer is up, the Private Shard disappears from the server completely.

siralius.9517:

“…new users enter and leave the market and trade differently.” Ooooh. Okay, I see now. The unawares new comer will spend the dough. Gotchya. Well, thanks for addressing the topic. Good day, to you all.

I recommend that you take some economics classes in school. There are some highschools that do require it, and some that do not. I guess it depends on the state or even country you live in. Not only would it help you understand how business works, but they have practical uses for life as well.

siralius.9517:

Let me make this clear for you and for Anet as well. The ppl who aren’t buying gems with money most likely aren’t going to buy gems with money. It’s a supply and demand thing. If you’re not supplying something that constitutes someone spending real life money then the demand goes down. Or something like that.

People with that mindset are not who corporate NCSoft has in mind. It’s people who do spend real money on microtransactions that matter. GW2 still caters to the Casual player who doesn’t pay anything outside of the box price of this game. But for those like me who want more fluff, and are willing to spend, Anet/NCSoft targets me by throwing nice looking fluff around. My transaction log is full of Gem Store items. Special dye packs, Bobblehead lab, Assassin gear, hundreds of BL Keys. storage expansion, etc. And in my entire lifespan of the game, I’ve only converted Gold to a total of 50 Gems, because I like even numbers in my wallet.

Edit – John strikes again!

siralius.9517:

pdavis.8031:

siralius.9517:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

siralius.9517:

ITheNormalPerson.9275:

if you need a different answer, it’s “nothing”

as they have said, in anets eyes it is working as intended.

Working as intended? Only a fool would not see the impending economic disaster this will soon be (should it continue on this trajectory).

Be careful of who you call a fool, especially when you’re the one who doesn’t understand that the Gem Exchange is working as intended. What’s going on is not an economic problem, but rather your own personal one. To resolve this issue, simply purchase Gems with your creditcard, and the exchange rate no longer matters.

Edit – To add to what Zil mentioned, the ratios will self correct, as when it becomes too expensive for players to exchange Gold for Gems, it becomes very attractive for players who want to exchange their Gems for Gold.

Yes and when it is 100g for 1 gem and say a few hundred players decide to cash in w/their credit cards and go on a shopping spree on the BL what then, dear Penguin?

So a few hundred, out of millions, decide to spend a lot of money on gems and convert them to a lot of gold, and buy a bunch of stuff on the TP? Well, what they buy on the TP will make other people rich, but won’t really effect much of anything. The prices aren’t going to suddenly and dramatically increase. Even if they are listed for a ridiculous amount, they aren’t going to sell because the rest of the millions of players aren’t going to be willing to pay a stupid amount for it. And if enough people are buying so much so quickly, all that influx of gold will eventually go away due to the TP tax, so it’s not really a problem.

I disagree. You make it appear air tight but I don’t think it will be that simple.

It’s actually a simple Supply and Demand curve. The more Demand there is for Gold → Gem exchanges, the Gem Supply lowers in the pot, and prices increase. If a player is really willing to pay 100 Gold for 1 Gem, then the system is working as intended. If no one exchanges Gold for Gems, they’ll more likely give in and buy Gems with real money. That’s also a side effect of a system that’s working as intended. And if players like me see the exchange ratios so out of whack, we’ll be buying Gems to convert into Gold. Once again, working as intended.

Every decision we make in terms of the Gem Exchange works in Anet’s favor. And in order to keep us players hungry for the next epic Gem Store item, they need to keep on bringing out stuff. Think about it. When was the last time that you didn’t see something new in the Gem Store? It seems an update of once a month is enough to keep players spending real money.

siralius.9517:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

siralius.9517:

ITheNormalPerson.9275:

if you need a different answer, it’s “nothing”

as they have said, in anets eyes it is working as intended.

Working as intended? Only a fool would not see the impending economic disaster this will soon be (should it continue on this trajectory).

Be careful of who you call a fool, especially when you’re the one who doesn’t understand that the Gem Exchange is working as intended. What’s going on is not an economic problem, but rather your own personal one. To resolve this issue, simply purchase Gems with your creditcard, and the exchange rate no longer matters.

Edit – To add to what Zil mentioned, the ratios will self correct, as when it becomes too expensive for players to exchange Gold for Gems, it becomes very attractive for players who want to exchange their Gems for Gold.

Yes and when it is 100g for 1 gem and say a few hundred players decide to cash in w/their credit cards and go on a shopping spree on the BL what then, dear Penguin?

If that day comes, then people like me who actually buy Gems with real money will benefit greatly. At that point, I’ll be able to exchange 1 Gem for 85 Gold. Working as intended.

siralius.9517:

ITheNormalPerson.9275:

if you need a different answer, it’s “nothing”

as they have said, in anets eyes it is working as intended.

Working as intended? Only a fool would not see the impending economic disaster this will soon be (should it continue on this trajectory).

Be careful of who you call a fool, especially when you’re the one who doesn’t understand that the Gem Exchange is working as intended. What’s going on is not an economic problem, but rather your own personal one. To resolve this issue, simply purchase Gems with your creditcard, and the exchange rate no longer matters.

Edit – To add to what Zil mentioned, the ratios will self correct, as when it becomes too expensive for players to exchange Gold for Gems, it becomes very attractive for players who want to exchange their Gems for Gold.

phys.7689:

As long as you don’t understand monetary values, it will continue to elude you.

Just trust that anet gets paid for every gem store item created in the game one way or the other.

As long as you don’t understand how MMO microtransactions work, you’ll keep assuming you’re correct. I can already tell that you’re misunderstanding how the Gem Exchange works in the first place. But take it from experts like me, who actually have a grasp on things like this. Gems have no monetary value, no matter how much you “think” there is.

Edit – To help you understand a bit more, I’ll simplify it. There are two (2) types of customers. Paying and non-paying. Paying customers are the ones who buy Gems, and bring in revenue to the company. Non-paying customers are ones who paid for the box price of the game, and exchange Gold for Gems for free when they can. The revenue the Non-paying customers brought in stopped at the moment they paid for the box.

phys.7689:

i said the best way for them to make money would be for you to do gems, but if all of you stop buying gems with real money it would solve itself, because then the exchange would be bankrupt, and no items would be generated except by cash.

the system is designed well, it corrects itself. Anet will be paid for every single gem store item that comes into the game one way or another, and they will be paid a premium for those that choose the gold route

Wrong again. If you purchase a Gem Store item with Gems converted from in-game Gold, Anet makes no money. The revenue is generated from Gem sales. If I buy 10,000 Gems with my creditcard, and MT converts 10,000 Gems with his Gold, I’m the one the stockholders will be happy with. Why? Because I deposited real money into a real business with real costs and real investors. MT spent his own Time to farm the Gold for 10,000 Gems. His Time, while very valuable to him and him alone, has no monetary value.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

I’m getting you didn’t bother to read the User Agreement. Here’s the part that supports my arguments:

4. ACCOUNT AND PAYMENTS TO NCSOFT
(d) Gems
(vii) You acknowledge that Gems are digital material with no cash value, that no interest is paid or earned with respect to Gems, that Gems are not personal property, that the quantity of Gems in Your Account may be increased or decreased by NCSOFT in its sole and absolute discretion for any reason or no reason whatsoever, that You have no right to a refund related to Gems, that there is no right to transfer or exchange Gems, and that NCSOFT may limit Your license to use Gems with respect to any Item, service, Content or time period related thereto. You further acknowledge that additional restrictions related to Gems, as determined in the sole and absolute discretion of NCSOFT, may be applicable if, and when, Gems are made available to You or thereafter. NCSOFT may restrict the award or use of Gems based on Your country of residence or other factors.

You agreed to these terms as well. So in essence, you’re arguing with yourself.

go to legal school and find out what a user agreement actually means.

I did! Though I changed my degree from law to business. So are we now comparing educational backgrounds to determine if your opinions are more reliable than my facts?

no im just hoping you realize that contracts dont change reality, and dont even guarantee you will win a case. but even more of that you would hopefully realize that a contract is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

The agreement that you had to agree to specifies that digital materials are owned by Anet, and have no value. It’s very relevant in countering your opinions with facts. The User Agreement doesn’t care if you personally believe that the items have value or not. The only thing that matters is that in this game, we pay for the privilege to access the content. Anet offers us Entertainment Value for everything we do in game. That is the reality at hand, and trumps any personally held beliefs and opinions you have on what has monetary value.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

I’m getting you didn’t bother to read the User Agreement. Here’s the part that supports my arguments:

4. ACCOUNT AND PAYMENTS TO NCSOFT
(d) Gems
(vii) You acknowledge that Gems are digital material with no cash value, that no interest is paid or earned with respect to Gems, that Gems are not personal property, that the quantity of Gems in Your Account may be increased or decreased by NCSOFT in its sole and absolute discretion for any reason or no reason whatsoever, that You have no right to a refund related to Gems, that there is no right to transfer or exchange Gems, and that NCSOFT may limit Your license to use Gems with respect to any Item, service, Content or time period related thereto. You further acknowledge that additional restrictions related to Gems, as determined in the sole and absolute discretion of NCSOFT, may be applicable if, and when, Gems are made available to You or thereafter. NCSOFT may restrict the award or use of Gems based on Your country of residence or other factors.

You agreed to these terms as well. So in essence, you’re arguing with yourself.

go to legal school and find out what a user agreement actually means.

I did! Though I changed my degree from law to business. So are we now comparing educational backgrounds to determine if your opinions are more reliable than my facts?

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

I’m getting you didn’t bother to read the User Agreement. Here’s the part that supports my arguments:

4. ACCOUNT AND PAYMENTS TO NCSOFT
(d) Gems
(vii) You acknowledge that Gems are digital material with no cash value, that no interest is paid or earned with respect to Gems, that Gems are not personal property, that the quantity of Gems in Your Account may be increased or decreased by NCSOFT in its sole and absolute discretion for any reason or no reason whatsoever, that You have no right to a refund related to Gems, that there is no right to transfer or exchange Gems, and that NCSOFT may limit Your license to use Gems with respect to any Item, service, Content or time period related thereto. You further acknowledge that additional restrictions related to Gems, as determined in the sole and absolute discretion of NCSOFT, may be applicable if, and when, Gems are made available to You or thereafter. NCSOFT may restrict the award or use of Gems based on Your country of residence or other factors.

You agreed to these terms as well. So in essence, you’re arguing with yourself.

Underdark.3726:

…crossed the quicksand before the Zepharites crashed and brought their crystals?

They had Moa Mounts that allowed them to cross the quicksand.

Zaxares.5419:

If it had been 250 Geodes instead of Sand, I’d actually have considered buying it. When combined with the other items (especially the 15 BL Keys), it might actually have been worth it tossing ANet a bit of financial support this month.

If they offered 250 Geodes in the Gem Store, then it would be P2W. Because you win when you have Geodes to trade for Zephyr keys.

phys.7689:

the user agreement is not an economic document it is a legal document.
the fact that i cannot legally sell my own gold does not mean anet cannot legally sell your gold. This means anet has secured the rights to cash in on golds monetary value. This is essentially to give them legal authority over gold sellers, and assure that it would be more difficult to sue them for gold losses.

the fact that it can be sold for money is what defines something’s monetary value.
anet is selling gold as we speak, therefore it has monetary value. My agreement is totally irrelvant to the reality that it is being sold for money.

there is no wiggle room, there is no debate.
a word has meaning, and right now this means gold has monetary value because anet is selling it for cash.

Gold has no monetary value. Gems have no monetary value. When you purchase Gems with real money, you are given something which has no monetary value. Just like going to the movies. You buy a ticket to get in. The ticket has monetary value, because you can ask for a refund should you change your mind. The movie itself is what you paid to see, and the “Entertainment value” is given in exchange for your money. You can’t say that the movie has monetary value, just because you paid money to see it.

You’re right that there’s no wiggle room and no debate. So why do you insist that something has monetary value, when there isn’t any? Your opinions vs my facts.

Raven Twospirit.9342:

I’ve been enjoying my popcorn while the debate rages on. It’s been entertaining

I’m more or less in agreement with this quote from Ayrilana:

Ayrilana.1396:

This may be a completely original and not thought of idea so hear me out.

The game has these things called guilds. Someone who wants to regularly do these coordinated meta events could start a guild specifically to do that and invite other people that wish to do so. Scheduled times can be posted on the MOTD so everyone knows when to be on and ready. You then find an somewhat empty server and ferry people over. You can use TS or other voice chat programs to coordinate if necessary.

Why hasn’t anyone thought of doing this? Oh wait… they have. A lot of the successful servers (ahem, mega servers) do this.

I haven’t wanted to join a guild, and so I am accepting of the fact that this can and does greatly limit my ability to do certain things in the game.

The only place the quote loses me, and this may just be my own ignorance of how to go about it, is “You then find an somewhat empty server . . . .”

How does one do that with the existing tools?

My reading of what the OP has been asking for, is for better tools to do exactly this part. Am I missing something obvious?

The Megaservers have an internal formula that groups similar players together. Server specific players are more likely to be grouped with the same server specific players (i.e. Blackgate players are given preference to play with other Blackgate players). German speaking players will more likely be grouped with other German speaking players. Guildies will more likely be grouped with other guildies. Existing maps are filled with players based on the formula, and new maps are created once existing maps are full.

Here’s how you get around the current system. You purposely flood an existing map by taxiing in friends or guildies. Once that map is capped, the server creates a new shard. Players attempting to join that particular map are then send to the new one, and once there, players are then taxied in to the “clean” map. Previously, large groups would guest to servers with low PvE activity, and create new maps based on that server.

If you’re a solo player, or if you’re in a guild with players who don’t want to do the Group Content you want to do, you need to find a way to get into a map with like-minded players. This is hard to do if you don’t have friends. That’s why it’s recommended that you join a guild that specializes in doing Group Content. TTS and TxS are good examples of Community based guilds that span multiple servers. Servers like Desolation have a large community specifically for their server.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

point is, gold -> gem sellers are giving anet something of monetary value.
they create a product which anet sells.

Gold has no monetary value. Gems have no monetary value. Gem sellers are giving Anet something of “in-game value” when they exchange them for Gold.

When you purchase Gems with real money, you’re paying for Gems, per se. You’re paying for Entertainment, which is a Service they provide. As soon as the Gems are deposited into your in-game account, they have $0 value.

I am talking about the value of gold.
and through gold the value of time spent trying to earn gold to sell to anet.

anet sells the gold you give them, therefore gold has monetary value to anet by its very definition.
The gold that players trade to anet has monetary value, that anet realizes the moment they sell it to a player.
gold is product created by the player that anet sells.
any product you can sell has monetary value.

this means the time you spend trying to get gold to get gems has a monetary value to anet.

they have reason to value the gold->gem sellers as well as the people who buy gems.
to put it short, gold->gem sellers are employees, creating a service/good of monetary value. The person who buys gems is the customer, who actually realizes that value.

this is the monetary value of gold right now
1 g costs 0.13 USD to buy through gems.

this exactly how much it is being sold for at this moment.

gold has monetary value by the very definition of monetary value, there is no debate, no question, no opinion.

“The amount of value an item or a service has in relation to if it were sold for cash to a willing buyer.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/monetary-value.html#ixzz3702JTcdb"

there is no wiggle room.
the fact gold is currently being sold by anet, means that gold has value in relation to “if it were sold for cash to a willing buyer”

Gold has no monetary value. Gems have no monetary value. Please read the User Agreement for further clarification:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

phys.7689:

point is, gold -> gem sellers are giving anet something of monetary value.
they create a product which anet sells.

Gold has no monetary value. Gems have no monetary value. Gem sellers are giving Anet something of “in-game value” when they exchange them for Gold.

When you purchase Gems with real money, you’re not paying for Gems, per se. You’re paying for Entertainment, which is a Service they provide. As soon as the Gems are deposited into your in-game account, they have $0 value.

Nerelith.7360:

I am going to leave this discussion be, since all I am doing is going around and around repeating myself, as you go round and round repeating yourselves.

You have your opinion, I have mine, let’s agree to disagree, as neither is going to convince the other at this point. We each have our own opinions.

Mine is that your opinions as mine are opinions, yours is that your opinions are facts.

Since neither is going to convince the other we may as well admit that this is just a waste of time as we argue in circles. I am sure I will again be told that your opinions are facts, but i am bowing out.

This isn’t an issue of a difference in opinions. It’s an issue where you have an opinion, and I have facts. Time has no monetary value, outside of opportunities to earn money with said Time. You believe in the concept of value, and mistakenly assume that your time now has the equivalent of monetary value. Because you wholeheartedly believe in your opinions, you’re dismissing everything else that doesn’t conform to your beliefs. It’s like when people used to think the world was flat. That was an opinion, based on their beliefs that the world ended at the horizon.

Zanshin.5379:

I find it very stupid to be forced to join another guild just because I don’t want to end up on an empty megaserver. I am faithful to my guild.

If your current guild does not want to assist you in doing Group Content, don’t you think it would be a good idea to join a guild with like-minded players? As the other player said, you can have multiple guilds at once. Rep your current one to be with your friends, and rep the other one should you want to do stuff like T4 Dry Tops, or Gold BB, or raids like Teq and the Great Wurm.

Nerelith.7360:

That is your opinion. You are welcome to believe it. That doesn’t make your opinion fact.

The issue here is that since you don’t understand the concept at hand, you’re assuming these are my opinions. Each of your posts are opinions, because they’re based on a conceptual idea of value. Since everything I stated is based on facts, my arguments are correct. To put it a different way, you’re speaking in shades of gray, while I’m speak in terms of black and white.

Ohoni.6057:

~~~ snip ~~~

After reviewing your previous posts, the conclusion that I get is that you want easy mode. You want max rewards from “Group Content”, regardless if the group is successful. You want to automatically be able to get into the best maps, because you feel you deserve to play with people who are as good as you. You’re not satisfied with anything less than a perfect run, and the only guaranteed way to control the outcome is for you to do it all by yourself.

Problem with all of this: You’re playing with a Single Player mindset in a multiplayer game. I think it’d be best that you stick to content that’s actually made for you. Things like your Personal Story, and the Queen’s Gauntlet when it comes out. You can get your max rewards for each step of your story that you complete, or get Gauntlet Chances each time you kill Liadri.

Obtena.7952:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Obtena.7952:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Wow. Just. Wow. This post is too high level for me to comprehend. Randomly assigning value to a non-value activity in the past…

Ahem, again, Gems have no monetary value, as per the User Agreement. It’s your own “perception” of value.

I was looking for the right words, but you got it here. I mean, unless we are missing a crystal ball or time machine, I can’t begin to understand how random assignment of arbitrary monetary value to time that has already past has ANYTHING to do with determining the value of … anything, including ingame things. I’m just glad that the Anet devs don’t exhibit or buy into this level of nonsense, or we would be screwed.

I should assign a monetary value to the economics lesson that I’ve been giving in this thread. Then I could afford more Gems!

Oh, I see how this works.

There is monetary value in me making this post and therefore … I think I should get a legendary. KABLAMMO!

It’s more true for me, as I’ve been doing all this while at work. I’m actually behind in some of my assignments, because I’ve been hiding on the forums for the past 7+ hours. So now my forum time has a monetary value of taxpayer dollars being wasted on my salary! But the government has plenty of money, so no harm done.

phys.7689:

The way i see it anything that can be sold for money has a monetary value.

monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)

Anet sells my gold
therefore my gold must have a monetary value.

case closed.

Anet doesn’t sell Gold, it sells Gems. And per the User Agreement, Gems have no monetary value. You agreed to this when you first made your account.

Appeals Court opens case, and vacates the lower court’s findings.

dodgycookies.4562:

Along with personal enjoyment a player can generate gold, items, or skills through playtime, which is valued by the market, but not the player at the time of acquisition. The time at which the player decides to trade for other things, he engages in barter trade and thus assesses the value of his own playtime. While usually this falls inline with market values, sometimes it does not, and the player refuses to trade due to a different opinion on valuation. Thus no value is actually assigned and realized through trade, only potential that is unrealized.

Again any time may have value, and that potential value can be generally forecast from the market, but is not realized until a decision is made to engage in trade to pursue it. In an mmo based around rewards, most players engage in trade and assign values to their own playtime and actively compare with the going market rate. Since we are debating very abstract concepts specific language is necessary. Sweeping statements that all player activity intrinsically have (rather than just potentially have) economic value are inaccurate and should be further clarified.

Also I think a key difference in any activity in game compared to the real world is that all content is, on paper, equally accessible for all players at all times. So from a certain perspective, you could make an argument that due to the cash -> gems -> gold exchange (which gives gems/gold no de jure monetary value in the real world, but does in effect infer a de facto currency based market determined value on gold) , any in game activity, even when not engaging in any trade, has a real calculable opportunity cost in relation to the value of a theoretical “maximum gold generation rate” activity.

I don’t discount the in-game value of items acquired through game play, or the time it takes to farm it. Time in this sense has value, but not monetary value.

ZilentNight.5089:

Cantha will be released the day this thread reaches 10,000 posts.

For Cantha!!!!

Obtena.7952:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Wow. Just. Wow. This post is too high level for me to comprehend. Randomly assigning value to a non-value activity in the past…

Ahem, again, Gems have no monetary value, as per the User Agreement. It’s your own “perception” of value.

I was looking for the right words, but you got it here. I mean, unless we are missing a crystal ball or time machine, I can’t begin to understand how random assignment of arbitrary monetary value to time that has already past has ANYTHING to do with determining the value of … anything, including ingame things. I’m just glad that the Anet devs don’t exhibit or buy into this level of nonsense, or we would be screwed.

I should assign a monetary value to the economics lesson that I’ve been giving in this thread. Then I could afford more Gems!

Nerelith.7360:

Behellagh.1468:

This is another case where the colloquial definition of a word has a very different meaning from how it’s used in a particular subject matter. The same way in science the Theory means a widely tested and accepted fact when theory to the public means a conjecture and supposition.

When Smooth uses monetary value it’s in the very specific definition of Economics. Gems in and of themselves have no value and therefore can’t be used to as a transitory property to equate cash that has a monetary value to in-game gold earned by playing the game.

Both Cash, and In Game Gold can be used to Purchase Virtual Goods and Services which have real world value. Therefore Both In game Gold, and Real world cash have economic Monetary value.

The problem is, he is entitled to his opinion, it doesn’t agree with mine, so be it. he is Not entitled to his own facts.

Just because he does Not believe that in game gold has monetary value, does Not mean it doesn’t.

If a teenager sweeps the front of my garage so I can move my car, and i happen to own a restaurant, and tell him " Look I’m tapped for cash, but here’s a coupon worth a $500 meal at my restaurant. As long as he spends it at my restaurant that coupon is worth $500 because someone else would have to spend $500 in cash to obtain the same meal.

Either Virtual Goods and Services have real world value or they don’t.

My opinion is, they do. As such any effort expended that can then be exchanged for them, also has real world value.

Smooth Penguin’s opinion is that Virtual Goods and Services lack real world value, so unless it is real world cash that is being exchanged then it does NOT have real world value.

We disagree, our opinions are not the same. That doesn’t make his opinions.. facts.

Real world money can be used to purchase Gems, but once the transaction is complete, the Gems no longer have any monetary value. Gold and Time have no monetary value either. Again, these are facts. You’re confusing your perception of value with reality.

Nerelith.7360:

The User agreement cannot contravene the science of economics. It’s a legal position, not an economic one. We will have to agree to disagree.

It also applies economically, since Gems don’t have monetary value, nor does Time.

Nerelith.7360:

I may be spending my recreational time playing Gw2. It may be time I do not assign any value to at the present moment. But I may in the future make decisions that suddenly retro-actively assign value to that time, even if at the time I Myself did not.

Example 1.

from real life.

A lawyer while in switzerland on vacation skiing has an accident, ends up in the hospital. While there he picks up a guitar to pass the time, and starts taking lessons while there, and then at home. He finds he has a feeling for the guitar. He keeps playing it as a hobby, his profession is law. Eventually he decides to try to use his talents at singing and guitar to earn a living. he becomes an international singing sensation.

The action of learning to play guitar was one he decided on for recreational purposes. At the time it was time spent on a hobby not a Job, and yet his decision, and actions that led to him selling records.. rendered that past time, learning to play guitar, an economic monetary one.

Future decisions and actions can make past time ..engaged in recreational activities have real monetary value.

Example 2. I Play Gw2. Purely for fun, relaxation, and recreation. Then in a year, I start a website, and write a pamphlet " make Gold In Gw2!!!" I sell it for $29 per download. I suddently am making money from what used to be a past time, the experiences I acquired in game…for pure recreation , now have a monetary value. That I Played Gw2 for 3 or 4 years ourely for recreational reasons, means that at the time i was Not engaged in economic or monetary activity. But the fact that I later decided to sell a book, that made Money, based on my experiences in game… suddenly turned all that previous " recreational" time… into " economic Monetary time.

How does this pertain to gw2 and selling gold for gems?

When you accrue the gems it may be Just " playing the game" and done purely for recreation. When you exchange that gold for gems…at that moment, even if you do not do anything with them, you have assigned Monetary value to the time it took to acquire the gold you exchanged. And the value can be obtained by comparing How much real world cash it would have taken to buy the very dsame number of gems you purchased with in game gold.

Wow. Just. Wow. This post is too high level for me to comprehend. Randomly assigning value to a non-value activity in the past…

Ahem, again, Gems have no monetary value, as per the User Agreement. It’s your own “perception” of value.

Ohoni.6057:

I feel that this idea simply cannot feasibly work.
Take what you say there, it effectively means I can bring a group of slackers and the system is forced to carry me through the content.

Not really. There’s no real way that it could absolutely guarantee success without basically making it faceroll, but it should at least guarantee a CHANCE at success. It should be able to guarantee that you won’t end up on a map with people achievement hunting or doing the living story or just goofing around, but that you are JUST grouped with people who are intending to make a T4 run. Currently, if you end up on a random map with people all doing their own thing, you have ZERO chance of getting to T4. All I’m saying is, you should have the option of self-selecting out of that group and into a group that is at least actively attempting the goal you want.

Now as with a TTS-built CP map, failure would still be a possibility, but at least with better matchmaking systems the game could make success more likely.

The main issue here is that you think a “Group Event” is equivalent of “Solo Content”. GW2 allows you to play the game solo all you want, but if you want to succeed in “Group Content”, you need a Group to do it. Makes sense, no? The Great Wurm needs a group of organized players. So does Dry Top T4. So does RPing with the Tarnished Coast community.

The main issue here is that you’re missing my point entirely. I am by no means confusing group content with solo or vice-versa.

If everyone wants to get to T4 level rewards, a large majority of them need to work together to meet the meta requirements. Until you realize this fact, you’ll probably have a hard time getting max rewards in this game.

Yes, which is the entire point of my proposals, to make a game in which this works better than it currently does.

It seems like these zone events are really designed for 20-40 people, not 150.

Yes, but to get T4 you basically need to be running two of these evens at once, sometimes three, and then when you finish you need to get to another one immediately that might be across the map. In any case, you need more active participants than I’ve ever seem on a map that I’ve been randomly logged into.

The actual issue here is that you feel you should be able to get max rewards in Group Content, because you know what you’re doing (as per your previous posts). That is the reason why I feel you don’t understand the argument you’re making. Top tier Group Content rewards means various requirements are met by various people. If 1 out of 5 or 4 out of 5 groups aren’t successful, you still get a reward, but at a lesser level. Max rewards are for when everyone is successful.

I can get behind changes that allow large groups to organize better. The dropdown box with server IPs would make things work well with our TTS runs. Rather than taxiing to get everyone in, we could secretly pick a specific map IP to use. The Megaserver formula can’t take into account large community groups that have 5,000 players across multiple guilds.

Nerelith.7360:

Wrong see bold type makes you wrong cause…it’s in bold type.

Ok all kidding aside. If players did not sell gold for gems, ArenaNet would not have the gold to sell for gems to people that bought gems with cash.

So no. ArenaNet makes money when a player sells their gold for gems because it gives ArenaNet what it needs to fill one of the demands for gems, for whicjh players buy gems with cash… a ready supply of Gold. So yes, a stockbroker cares when a player sells his gold for gems, they just may not realize why they care, just as you don’t realize why they care. But..they care.

His point was that by using tokens on the street fighter machine, even if the arcade runner said " these tokens have no cash value" ( You cannot sell them back for cash)… doesn’t mean that the machine is not generating money when you put tokens in the machine.

Just because you say for free in bold type even doesn’t make it free.

The moment you exchange gold for gems which can then be exchanged for Virtual goods and services which have a real world value, you have assigned monetary value to the time it took you to accrue that gold.

And saying for free in bold, doesn’t make it free. it simply makes it free in your opinion.

I could say it in bold and in normal font, and that doesn’t change anything. It’s still a FACT, not an opinion.

There is no monetary value to Gold or to Gems. Just because Anet allows you to exchange Gems for Gold, doesn’t mean either has a monetary value. And this is no monetary value to your Time that you spent to farm any Gold in game. Never has been, never will. Facts are facts.

Both of you are trying to use an arcade example to support your arguments. And again, both of you are misapplying it simply because it sounds relevant. As I said, the token system is similar to the usage of Gems. If you bothered to read my post, you’ll see that you skipped over the explanations as to why you can’t take the argument any further. Arcades force players to exchange their money for tokens, in a way to monopolize the player’s money. They get you to spend your money there and no where else, rather than allowing the players to pay with quarters. It’s a business tactic that allows the arcade to profit. If you want to tie tokens into Gems to support your argument, you then need to prove that a player is also able to exchange something else of non-monetary value for tokens. Unfortunately, you can’t, so your argument ends there.

As for the Gem Exchange. allow me educate you on how it works. Anet loaded a set amount of Gold and Gems into the pot when the game first started. As time goes on, the exchange ratios go up or down, depending on the amount of Gold or Gems left in said pot. If more players exchange Gems for Gold, the ratios for that goes up, while the ratios for Gold to Gems goes down. At the moment, the ratios for exchanging Gold for Gems are pretty high, as a lot more players are doing that than Gems for Gold. With this in mind, the initial pot of Gold in the exchange still has the original amount Anet deposited, plus a whole lot extra.

Anet does not make money from players exchanging Gold for Gems. Not an opinion, but fact (just in case you didn’t understand). Anet makes money when I pay with my creditcard to buy Gems. Once I pay, I get Gems that have no monetary value. As with the arcade example, the business isn’t making money each time the player puts a token into the machine. The money was made as soon as the tokens were purchased. But that’s as far as the similarities go.

So when I say it’s “free”, that’s a cold hard fact. I spent no money and nothing else of monetary value should I farm for Gold to exchange for Gems. Anet allows for such a transaction for players who don’t wish to spend real money on microtransactions. If they took away the Gem Exchange, they would still be making money via Gem purchases, because that’s where the revenue is generated.

phys.7689:

they would not have bought the product if they could not get something they wanted, thats like saying back in the day streetfighter game wasnt making more money in arcades, because people changed dollars into tokens.
its irrelevant if your tokens have no cash value in the arcade, the point is, what did they turn their dollars into tokens to do?

yes the streetfighter machine is making you money if people are spending their tokens on streetfighter.

Nope, you’re wrong again on a couple of things.

1) The reasons why a player buys Gems can vary. But it’s the actual purchase of Gems that makes Anet/NCSoft money. Exchanging Gold for Gems does nothing for a stockholder who wants to see real revenue.

2) The token system in arcades had a single purpose – to force players to spend money only at the arcade in question. By offering bonus tokens for $5, $10, or $20 levels, you’ve effectively upsold them to spending more money, whereas allowing the use of quarters allows the player to pick and choose when they’re willing to leave.

I get what you’re saying about the token system, as it’s similar in scope to Gems in this case. But, Gems have multiple uses. Exchange them for Gold, for conveniences, or for looks. A big difference is that you can’t exchange anything except money for tokens, but you can exchange in game Gold for Gems for free. I would love to see someone try to exchange their time for tokens. Also. tokens weren’t optional. If you wanted to play, you needed to pay or go somewhere else.