Guild Wars 2

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Aidan Savage.2078:

And people STILL dont comprehend that it’s not a problem with the trade post. It’s a problem with players choosing not to take their gods be kitten ed time when selling crap.

Seriously though, this thread needs to be closed. It’s 10 pages of the same complaint regurgitated over and over again. Not to mention John cant teach econ to people who dont care to listen.

John’s not going to close it, because some of us are actually providing valuable insight into why the OP is wrong. So while the OP’s reasons for this thread are completely flawed, the discussion against him is actually educating.

So your rant calling me jealous like kitten and a communist is educating? Yeah, keep talking, I’m really curious. And by the way, I’m from Germany, you can call me radical right-wing too if you want.

Sorry, I thought you were from China. I don’t understand how GMT works, so when calculating your time zone, I placed you in Beijing.

Anyways, I’m not ranting on you at at. I was trying to understand the reason why you’re so against rich people. If you’d like, I can quote each and every post you made that you said you don’t like others having more money than you, and that you’re ok with others making more money than flippers (which negates your whole complaint in that regard). Your reasons for this thread changed every few posts.

Aidan Savage.2078:

And people STILL dont comprehend that it’s not a problem with the trade post. It’s a problem with players choosing not to take their gods be kitten ed time when selling crap.

Seriously though, this thread needs to be closed. It’s 10 pages of the same complaint regurgitated over and over again. Not to mention John cant teach econ to people who dont care to listen.

John’s not going to close it, because some of us are actually providing valuable insight into why the OP is wrong. So while the OP’s reasons for this thread are completely flawed, the discussion against him is actually educating.

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

but really the only reason to discuss these semantics, is if you genuinely believe some misunderstanding is occuring because of it.

so to be clear, when you see reward mentioned in my posts, it will be defined as this

reward: something given or received in return or recompense for service, merit, hardship, etc.

It has been explained multiple times and your definition doesn’t fit both. You are choosing to conflate the 2 terms intentionally to support your baseless assumptions in this thread.

Reward = result of playing the game and getting “new” materials/gold into the economy.

Profit from investment = Investing in and using materials/gold that has already been created and in circulation.

2 VERY different things.

this is you guys new definition which has nothing to do with english.
I would have to create a new word that most people wouldnt understand to describe what the word reward usually means.

would you prefer i said value gained?

Please see below:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

One more thing you brought up a few posts up. Rewards from events are NOT the same as profits from the TP. You CANNOT compare the two, as one is newly created wealth that didn’t exist before, and the other is existing wealth that’s transferred between players. The economic impact of each is vastly different, and thus can never be compared. It would be like Anet offering to introduce Mounts to the game, but instead release a new Gem Store weapon skin. You cannot compare Mounts to a Weapon skin.

You can call it whatever you want, but it still cannot be compared.

Obtena.7952:

Vol.7601:

this is still going on? I thought multiple points from the resident economist would have calmed things down

These points simply tend towards armchair, MMO hobby economist wanna-bes spouting off their ‘facts’ about why JS is wrong to feel good about how smart they think they are.

Frankly, I read JS post and the bottom line was “Nothing is going to change people. This is our best at the moment”. There was certainly nothing there that should give anyone the idea that flipping, etc… is going to be restricted in anyway. If anything, there was hints of a direction ingame making it EASIER for people to use the TP with better/more accessible information. Some people haven’t figured that out yet.

Actually Obtena, it isn’t about how smart they are. On the contrary, they just don’t understand economics period. John gives facts backed by research, and they don’t understand. And at this point, there isn’t anything any of us can do to help explain things, since the issue is more complicated than “I wants more Gold, increase rewards for fairness!”

phys.7689:

mathmatically there isnt really a difference between a loss of earning rate and direct loss, once you consider the factor time is money.

when you get into the hardcore earning mindset, time really is money.
every time i had a bad dungeon run, it was costing me money.

I could earn 5 gold an hour without having to pay attention, and just doing 4/7 frostgorge bosses

this means every minute has a base earning time of 8.33 silver a minute, in an easy carefree watch netflix level of effort.

so the dungeon that may pay me 1 gold an hour and cuts my earnings in the same time period down to 1.6 silver per minute is in fact a huge risk.
as far as risk from speculation
Im sorry but you are straight up gambling thats different, flipping and most TP merchanting practices are pretty far from gambling. The only real risk is how long it will take, and the more money you have, the less that matters except for turning over your profit again.

an analogy for speculation in would be like betting 2k gold on a spvp match or in a pve dungeon speed run competition.

If you have that mindset where you put a monetary value on your time, that means EVERYTHING in this game outside of farming makes you lose money. If you do the new Living Story 2 path, or if you do a Dynamic Event, you’re losing out on the opportunity to do a Dungeon speed clear. That’s the fallacy of this argument. Time does not equal money.

Now back to the loss of earning and direct loss discussion. When you do a Dungeon and fail, you do not lose money. If had 500 Gold in your bank, you still have 500 Gold after a failed Dungeon run. On the other hand, if you have 500 Gold in your bank, spent 400 of it on an investment, and that investment loses value, you have a negative impact on your net worth. Big big difference between the two.

One more thing you brought up a few posts up. Rewards from events are NOT the same as profits from the TP. You CANNOT compare the two, as one is newly created wealth that didn’t exist before, and the other is existing wealth that’s transferred between players. The economic impact of each is vastly different, and thus can never be compared. It would be like Anet offering to introduce Mounts to the game, but instead release a new Gem Store weapon skin. You cannot compare Mounts to a Weapon skin.

phys.7689:

my guess is that these issues, even though they may not be as drastic as the OP was, keep coming up, and are a source of contention for a lot of players. Theres nor real point in burying the thread if another one will pop up next week.

As to your point about dungeon runners create items/rewards and have no risk that is a matter of game design which means, it can be changed, also the risk on the TP in order to profit is highly overated. It is greater than zero, but there are methods which will result in a strong net gain in money consistently. Also when you start talking about “risk” you need to start including time.
the big risk in dungeons, is time. A bad dungeon run? could take 20min to an hour
if the most basic activity pays 4 gold an hour, that means they are risking 4 gold to 1.3 gold with failed runs.
whereas time risked while TP trading?
lets say i go with high and low on soft wood, lowest price over last 24 hours was 1.05 silver, highest sell price is 1.41 silver, lets say i bought at 1.07 silver and sold at 1.39 i make 11 copper per sale, you make 27 silver per stack, to do do buy orders for 10 stacks and sell orders for 10 stacks takes about 2 minutes.

my risk in time is fairly small, for 2.7 gold return.

You can’t compare the risk of “losing time” for a failed Dungeon run to the risk of actually losing money on bad investments. As an example, say a player purchased a Monocle when prices were 500 Gold, but a re-release dropped the value to 40 Gold. Yes this would be more of a speculation problem at its core, but since we’re talking TP and risk, this example still applies. As for more short term risk, say I purchased 10,000 pieces of Mithril Ore at 50c each, but prices dropped to 38c. I just lost 10,000 × 12c of net worth. For a Dungeon runner who fails a run, you just lost your time. As I stated on the other page of this thread, the Dungeon doesn’t take away Gold whenever you fail a run.

Now as for the issue of TP, and the negative feelings the OP and others have for it, John brought up good points in his post. These players simply don’t understand how American type free market systems work. But it’s hard to really educate them via in game tools or tip-bars. This is something you need to learn in school. Not everyone is familiar with business or economic talk, just as I’m not familiar with how to change a tire on my wife’s car (but at least I know how to pump my own gas!)

As an aside, I would really like to know if the OP is just anti-Capitalist because he doesn’t like rich people, jealous that he’s unable to be rich, or just wants in-game mechanics to benefit his play style over others. All his posts in this 10+ page thread could indicate all three.

I fully support this, because I have millions of Karma that I can’t use!

I think the OP’s misunderstandings in this whole thread can be summed up as cultural differences. If you’re from a Communist based country, understanding the thoughts and ideas of a Capitalist based country can be hard. In American and Europe, we believe in free markets, where as other countries control everything, including the formation of barriers to entry and censorship. So the OP’s thoughts of “balance” in the acquisition of wealth probably come from the idea that everyone should share evenly in the fruits of labor. What do you think John?

I’m completely fine if they rename Cantha to China. Just give it to us!!!

Are the merchants better on a T4 map? I hear that they sell you better stuff as the tier goes up.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Go back and read again. I want the revenues evened out. If dungeon runners would as conclusion come out ahaid, then I would have no problem with that since I still consider actually playing the game worth more than standing by the merchant flipping the coins.

Again, your argument fails. Money made from doing a Dungeon run is not the same as profits from the TP. Thus they can never be compared to each other.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

If dungeon runners would earn more than traiding post flippers, then I would be completely fine with that.

So at first, your argument was that TP traders should not make more money than you. This led to your feelings that you dislike rich people, as per your previous post.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me

But now that you’d be able to make more money than someone else, it’s completely OK? Because now it benefits you? You lost this argument on multiple levels now.

Nice quoting, you won all my internetz. I’m neither flipping, nor selling dungeons runs, so there will always people who are richer than me. Poor me. :’(

Seriously if you only aim for letting me look like I’m just a jealous child then kittening leave this thread. If you can’t argument on facts and even feel the need to quote me that badly then I have no interest in hearing your opinion.

Realize that when I quote your exact words, these are “facts”. All of our arguments are not based on opinions, but based on facts, while yours is based on biased opinions that benefit you.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

No, there is nothing to discuss. Claiming you have the right to earn more than anybody else because you’re not responsible for inflation is just over the top.

Actually, there hasn’t been anything to discuss in the last several pages. The fact that you don’t understand how economies work, coupled with your dislike of rich players, made this debate one-sided since the beginning. I’ll post this quote again, since this is the key issue thus far:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me

HHR LostProphet.4801:

If dungeon runners would earn more than traiding post flippers, then I would be completely fine with that.

So at first, your argument was that TP traders should not make more money than you. This led to your feelings that you dislike rich people, as per your previous post.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me

But now that you’d be able to make more money than someone else, it’s completely OK? Because now it benefits you? You lost this argument on multiple levels now.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

1) So your argumentation is that you’re allowed to get so much gold because you’re not creating new one? That’s as stupid as it can get as an argument.

Let’s address this shall we? The mere fact that you don’t understand the concept is one thing. But to call a factual argument “stupid” when you don’t even understand the argument to begin with is another.

It’s like when a child calls me a meanie because I tell them Santa Claus doesn’t exist.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Ayrilana.1396:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

As I’ve said before, it’s not about the market, it’s about the one player making much more money through flipping the traiding post than the one player soloing dungeons which is exhausting and requires a lot of skill or the one farming the materials you are flipping.
In terms of just watching a video, I can just repeat the question others have made so often: If it’s that simple, why don’t more people do it? If you are that certain that it is that easy, you can watch a solo guide if you like and try it. We can talk afterwards.

Let’s say that doing solo dungeon runs and selling spots was the most profitable way to make gold followed by flipping. Would there no longer be an issue for you then?

It is already the most rewarding activity after flipping the traiding post. The problem is that traiding post flippers get way too much gold for what they do. They should get an even amount of gold like 200g per day maximum. That’s the margin a real hardcore dungeon seller could achieve. Flipping the traiding post requires skills that don’t belong to basic MMOs skills. Soloing a dungeon is the supreme discipline of basic MMO skills.

There is no valid basis for this suggestion. This is just another suggestion to punish TP players because of jealousy. It’s like me suggesting that Dungeons should be limited to 1 per day, because you have more fun than standing in town for hours. There should be an even amount of fun spread across all players.

TP trading is an integral part of this game. You can choose to do it, or you can choose to run Dungeons. Your personal feelings of not liking rich people is not, and never will be a valid argument for something.

Is someone going to start selling taxis to a T4 Megaserver?

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Read the thread I’ve said it numerous of times…
Fine, just for you:
Normal earning formula: Set amount of gold * time spend = reward.
Traiding post flipping formula: Variable amount of gold * time spent = reward.
This means: No matter how much gold a dungeon runner has, if he runs an ADAP run, he gets around 50g per day.
The traiding post flipper however can get revenues based on the gold he has initially spent. Even if a flipper just starts with 2 gold and just gets 5% more gold every day, he will soon get more gold per day than a dungeon runner.
And please don’t say that’s not how it is because I can assure you that all those guys who have 10k+ gold haven’t done an ADAP run yet.

Let me try to simply my response to this, as you clearly still don’t understand certain things. It might be that American isn’t your primary language, so bear with me.

1) Profits are not rewards. Rewards are newly generated wealth that never existed in the game. Profits are “existing” wealth that’s being transferred between players, and the TP takes away 15% of the value, acting as a sink. Your example fails because you’re comparing two completely different things.

2) 5% of 2 Gold is 10 Silver. Dungeon runners make more money per hour than that. In fact, I can make that money simply by mining Mithril ore, and selling it to a merchant.

3) You have yet to provide a valid argument that’s based on facts. All your points are opinion based, and get trumped by the fact that the economy is working fine.

1) You get gold. Gold is all that matters. People who do other activites on a ragular basis do also get gold, just way less.

2) Next day he has 5 gold, 10 silver to spend, the day after 5 gold 35 silver. Sonner than later he will make more gold than the one getting 50g per day.

3) It’s pretty hard to provide valid facts if you can’t look up how much gold players have made by flipping the traiding post, but you can take it as granted that the ones having multiple thousands of gold didn’t got them through doing ADAP runs.
At last, it’s not about the economy. It’s about how much one can earn through one activity.

Wrong again.

1) Gold acquisition IS what matters. Newly created Gold is not treated the same as existing Gold. Unless you understand how economics works, it’s really hard to explain this to you. It could take dozens of pages of threads to teach players something as complicated as this. Maybe if you think about the difference between your government printing money, and money that’s exchanged between you and a store. One is newly generated currency that didn’t exist before. The other is existing currencies traded between two parties, in which case one party is taxed.

2) There’s no guarantee that a TP trader will continue to make money. He could make 50 Gold in a day, or he could lose 300 Gold. Dungeons reward items and Gold at the end, but if you fail, the Dungeon doesn’t take away Gold from your bank.

3) Someone running Arah all day makes more money than me. Just because 1% of the population can make a lot of money, doesn’t mean anything is broken. In fact, the economy is working well because of it. So until you can provide a solid argument against an economics expert like John Smith, your whole thread is based off of your own personal opinions that you don’t like that players make more money than you.

“Mister E” is a male. A male charr. One that protects the citizens from the shadows. All indicators point towards the heroic Evon Gnashblade.

Nerelith.7360:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sky.7610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sky.7610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.

Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?

The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.

Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?

Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.

Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.

Some economists have actually defined Currency as a form of concentrated effort over time. if you look at it that way, if I do dungeons for 4 Hours, and earn " Gold" that I transfer into gems, I am paying for those gems just as much as someone that bought their gems with cash.

And if you did that, you got Gems for free. The 4 hours you spent still has no monetary value. You could make the argument only if Anet allowed us to exchange Gems for Cash. But we all know what happens when you do that <coughD3cough>.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

~~~snip~~~

One more thing. If you think it’s so easy to make money on the TP, why is it that you aren’t rich yourself?

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Read the thread I’ve said it numerous of times…
Fine, just for you:
Normal earning formula: Set amount of gold * time spend = reward.
Traiding post flipping formula: Variable amount of gold * time spent = reward.
This means: No matter how much gold a dungeon runner has, if he runs an ADAP run, he gets around 50g per day.
The traiding post flipper however can get revenues based on the gold he has initially spent. Even if a flipper just starts with 2 gold and just gets 5% more gold every day, he will soon get more gold per day than a dungeon runner.
And please don’t say that’s not how it is because I can assure you that all those guys who have 10k+ gold haven’t done an ADAP run yet.

Let me try to simply my response to this, as you clearly still don’t understand certain things. It might be that American isn’t your primary language, so bear with me.

1) Profits are not rewards. Rewards are newly generated wealth that never existed in the game. Profits are “existing” wealth that’s being transferred between players, and the TP takes away 15% of the value, acting as a sink. Your example fails because you’re comparing two completely different things.

2) 5% of 2 Gold is 10 Silver. Dungeon runners make more money per hour than that. In fact, I can make that money simply by mining Mithril ore, and selling it to a merchant.

3) You have yet to provide a valid argument that’s based on facts. All your points are opinion based, and get trumped by the fact that the economy is working fine.

Certain players like phys would probably love it if Anet gave more account bound rewards for content. But that wouldn’t satisfy the frivolous complaints where one player is angry that other players are rich.

John seriously needs to close this thread. We’re in an endless circle of kitten because the OP doesn’t understand what we’re trying to explain.

Nerelith.7360:

Sky.7610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.

If all the complainers don’t want to get their hands down and dirty to produce food, they need to realize that foods are actually “FREE” when you exchange money. There are people who never actually produce a single food by themselves and yet have plenty of food.

Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?

People seem to forget that just because a Player did not spend " real-world money" doesn’t mean that Gold they exchanged for Gold was " free."

It was earned, by exchanging time, energy, thinking, and effort. That Gold wasn’t given to them, and they did not wake up One day to see the gold appear out of nowhere.

When the person you responded to speaks as he does, he trivializes the effort and the experiences of players that also pay to buy things on the gem store.

It is Not only the ones that pull the wallet and credit card out, that “pay” for gw2.

Gems can be “free” if you exchange in game Gold. Free meaning that it didn’t cost you any real world money. Time to farm the Gold cannot be argued the same as Cash, as this would be like comparing Strawberries to Bananas. The “value” of time is dependent on the person, but only in a personal sense, and not monetary. The “value” of money is static, as it’s a currency.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

ANet has stopped the champtrain because too many people had made too much gold with it. The traidingpost flipping is the same, just with less people who make more gold.

No it’s not the same. Rewards from Champ Trains was newly generated wealth. Without proper checks and balances on new monies, the value of Gold would plummet, which would then lead to higher prices overall.

Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% of that is taken out of the economy as a sink. This sink helps to maintain control on the in game value of Gold. Ergo, TP traders are good for the economy.

Duke Nukem.6783:

Wanze.8410:

Duke Nukem.6783:

mtpelion.4562:

How about a compromise?

You can now buy the lowest listing (the undercutter) or the highest listing. The ones in the middle are still off limits until the ends have been bought out.

This lets you reward the only guy who didn’t undercut by buying his item first if you want to.

if we are going to allow that why not allow me to pick the one that didnt undercut by 1c, as iv said before undercutting is fine and natural and it has to be there, undercutting by 1c however….does NOT

Another shameless necro on a dead horse…

really? cuz we just started taking about compromise that sure sounds like progress to me, u mark my words anet will make a change to this feature someday and u can resist it all u want but it will come

No they won’t. We know this for a fact because of the following:

1) There is no problem, thus no solution is needed.

2) Why spend days rewriting code to benefit one person?

CureForLiving.5360:

PopeUrban.2578:

To protect his profit margin. Mind you he was in the first group of refugees to flee. Kiel fought on the breachmaker. Hobo-Tron has done more for the people of LA than Evon Gnashblade.

You say flee I say selflessly aiding in the evacuation, scouting the area ahead to ensure no danger would befall the civilians!

That’s typical Evon. Always looking out for the good citizens of Lion’s Arch! This is expected of an honorable charr such as himself.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I honestly can’t believe this thread is still going.

Didn’t any of you take economics in high school? I mean, even just basics?

Flipping doesn’t need to be stopped. Nor do I see those people as doing anything wrong. If that’s how they enjoy playing, more power to ‘em. They’re smarter than me lol.

Unfortunately, when you have an argument with someone who 1) doesn’t understand the economy and 2) is confusing his personal opinions as facts, this thread will go on forever.

So I’ll summarize how this thread is going:

John Smith – The economy, while not perfect, is completely fine and healthy at the moment.

OP – I don’t like that other players can have more money than me.

Malganis.7468:

How anyone can listen to Evon’s ambient dialogue in Vigil Keep after Scarlett attacked Lion’s Arch, and still think Evon is a nice guy is beyond me. The guy is terribly greedy, only thinks about himself, and has no regard for his fellow citizens.

1 – It’s thanks to him and his goods that we were able to defeat Scarlet. He provided the Lionguard with their equipment.

2 – Evon tried to warn the Captain’s Council, but no one listen to him. If he were elected last year, Lion’s Arch would have had air defenses. The citizens were slaughtered thanks to Kiel. Your friends, your family, all gone. And this is mostly because more players wanted to temporarily save a few silver on WP costs…

HHR LostProphet.4801:

You’ve described a fair game, where people who play more can sell the stuff they’ve found to people who can’t/don’t want to play that much but still want to get the items. Now a thrird party comes in, who neither plays the game, nor spend gold on buying items they need but rather buy items cheap and sell them expensive and cheese their way through guildwars and become the most wealthy players in game.

Your argument fails again, this time because your example makes no sense. If someone doesn’t play this game, how would they access game content? This is like me saying that I can be wealthy if I come in and win a game for the Seattle Seahawks (a football team here in America), but I’m not even on the team.

Ayrilana.1396:

I love how people can discount economic theory and principles because of differences in the game’s economy vs real life’s economy. Does this mean I can discount theory and principles of gravity on the moon since the moon and Earth are not the same?

It’s like arguing that Santa Claus doesn’t exist. One is based on the opinions of a child, while the other is based on reality. Opinions and personal feelings are trumped by numbers and facts.

Now if we were debating something like “The existence of God” between an Atheist and a Christian, then we would have a debate of opinion vs. opinion. That would be open ended, with no side being able to prove either way.

Having said this, I do love a good debate. But I’m curious as to why John allows this thread to continue, when the OP openly admitted that he’s not happy because other people are more rich than him. This turned from a potentially good debate, to a one sided argument against a brick wall.

Samuirai.4561:

You can sell an apple at $0.75/each. Sky will buy 2. You made $1.5
You can sell an apple for 10.00$/each. A richer guy who doesn’t care will buy 1. You made $10.00

I offer you $5 for your apple if I can get it right away. If not, I’m willing to pay $0.25 per apple should I receive it next week.

Sky.7610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sky.7610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sky.7610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sky.7610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.

Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?

The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.

Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?

Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.

Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.

Time always have value. In fact, time is the ultimate value and the ultimate equality. Everyone gets 24hrs a day, no more or less. Time is an accepted currency for a job, which generated $. When i get money by working, I give up my right to use my time the way i wish.

When i give up gold to get gems, i give up my right to use gold as i wish.

Wrong again. Time is not a currency. Time is used to earn currency, as with a job. If you have a job, that’s the only point in which time has a monetary value.

Now if you’re talking about “personal value”, then yes, time is valuable to you. But again, it’s not a currency, so you can’t argue it as such. Just like how I value my knowledge of business. I don’t go around treating it like a currency, asking for free food in exchange for debating the goods and evils of the Trading Post.

Free implies “without cost or payment”. If i have to exchange X to get Y, it is NOT free by any means.

But my post relates “Free” with respect to the spending of real life monies. So yes, Gems can be gotten for free when you exchange in game Gold.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Thank you for (not) reading! Please don’t come again!

No we read the most important part of your whole post:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me

No you’re just missing the whole point, in fact it’s like you’re heading in the opposite direction. That what you quoted is my personal opinion. And I can express my opinion as much as I want. My opinion however is not the reason why I wrote this thread. I wrote this thread because traiding post flipping is unfair, because it breaks the normal time-spent/reward pattern. And wether or not “fair” is a debateable term I can try to make this game a little bit fairer, especially because the devs actually can make the game fairer, so that this game will maintain a healthier state.

Fairness can be up for debate, especially when you say things like:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me

So yes, this whole debate is centered around your ideal “fairness” that only applies to how you view the game.

FYI – the GW2 economy is already in a “healthy” state. And we can all thank John Smith for that.

That however is your opinion, thanks for your input tho.
Oh, and I can differentiate between opinions and arguments, on the contrary to some other guys around here..

Actually, it’s not my opinion, but rather facts based on status updates by Anet’s John Smith.

So on one side, we have you with a personal opinion, and the other side we have an economic expert who works for Anet.

HyruleanHyroe.1473:

If I was a woman, and a Charr, and unmarried, and a fictional character, I would totally have Evon’s babies.

But I’m not, so we’ll just have to settle for some freaky mind stuff.

It’s completely ok to have these thoughts. When someone of Evon’s character and charisma comes along, one can’t help but be awestruck in his presence. If you look of the word “Hero” in the Tyrian dictionary, you’ll have Evon’s face as the description.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Thank you for (not) reading! Please don’t come again!

No we read the most important part of your whole post:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me

No you’re just missing the whole point, in fact it’s like you’re heading in the opposite direction. That what you quoted is my personal opinion. And I can express my opinion as much as I want. My opinion however is not the reason why I wrote this thread. I wrote this thread because traiding post flipping is unfair, because it breaks the normal time-spent/reward pattern. And wether or not “fair” is a debateable term I can try to make this game a little bit fairer, especially because the devs actually can make the game fairer, so that this game will maintain a healthier state.

Fairness can be up for debate, especially when you say things like:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me

So yes, this whole debate is centered around your ideal “fairness” that only applies to how you view the game.

FYI – the GW2 economy is already in a “healthy” state. And we can all thank John Smith for that.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Thank you for (not) reading! Please don’t come again!

No we read the most important part of your whole post:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me

Sky.7610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sky.7610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sky.7610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.

Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?

The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.

Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?

Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.

Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.

Time always have value. In fact, time is the ultimate value and the ultimate equality. Everyone gets 24hrs a day, no more or less. Time is an accepted currency for a job, which generated $. When i get money by working, I give up my right to use my time the way i wish.

When i give up gold to get gems, i give up my right to use gold as i wish.

Wrong again. Time is not a currency. Time is used to earn currency, as with a job. If you have a job, that’s the only point in which time has a monetary value.

Now if you’re talking about “personal value”, then yes, time is valuable to you. But again, it’s not a currency, so you can’t argue it as such. Just like how I value my knowledge of business. I don’t go around treating it like a currency, asking for free food in exchange for debating the goods and evils of the Trading Post.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

The problem I have with traiding post flippers is a simple one. I simply don’t like others to be richer than me

This is the heart and soul of your complaint. Another reason why some experienced players have a hard time explaining why the GW2 economy is just fine.

Sky.7610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sky.7610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.

Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?

The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.

Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?

Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.

Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.

Eggman.1405:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

So when you read a book, you come to your conclusion after the first few pages? If you took the time to dive into the story, you’ll have found many clues and lore hidden within. If story is important to you, it can be really boring if you skip or miss all the good parts.

You seem to be confusing complaints about content vs. complaints about delivery method. I have zero issues with the actual content. The fight vs. the saboteur could have been the real end (and potentially more rewarding if we randomly dropped some things if you repeat that fight) and most of the story from part 3 left to discover as ambient conversations or things you find poking around Dry Top.

To each his own when you want to debate delivery methods. I’m quite happy about the story, and that we have a new area to explore (albeit small).

My only complaint here is that too many forum players complained about LS1, so they changed the update from every 2 weeks, to every month. As a player who eats up new content the same day it’s released, this sucks.

Sky.7610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.

Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?

The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.

If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.

Evon is “Mister E”, or “E”, or “Mystery”. So let it be written, so let it be told.

Eggman.1405:

Sorry if this is a repeat, I’ve checked through several pages and haven’t seen similar threads on this exact topic…

I’m very dumbfounded at how they chose to end the first thrilling chapter of LWS2. Instead of some dramatic event that leaves you excited for the upcoming months and breathless for more, you sit in a room. And listen to people talk.

A lot.

Then you click on some stuff and listen to more talking.

A lot.

Then there is some more talking. And you get to poke around a room when everybody leaves. If the end-of-story graphics didn’t pop up in your face you’d have no idea that you’ve been dismissed.

Now I know that we’re not in the age where you can catch a nice Republic serial at the movies anymore, but the cliffhanger trope still works well. I can’t believe the Anet story editor thought that having people sit in a room was a good climax for an introductory chapter. Even the tiny bit of drama that it set up has no payoff… there is all this talk at the start about what kind of defenses might be set up to enter the room, so in theory you could have had some sort of battle to go out on, but after all the hand-wringing from the NPCs you just `pew pew` down a door and that’s it. If there was really no content left for part 3, they could have just ended things after the boss battle in part 2 and saved the part 3 stuff for the opener next month.

Maybe this would work on paper since if I was reading a book I could just continue on to the next chapter. If I have to wait a month for the next piece of story, I wouldn’t recommend putting people to sleep first.

So when you read a book, you come to your conclusion after the first few pages? If you took the time to dive into the story, you’ll have found many clues and lore hidden within. If story is important to you, it can be really boring if you skip or miss all the good parts.

Now that everyone has had the opportunity to log in and experience this new content, I’m obligated to extend my thanks to the great Evon Gnashblade for providing us with that “anonymous” mail. With his deep connections, he’s able to not only sell us epic gear in his store, but to also lead us to where are next adventure is. In short, if Evon didn’t send us that mail, we players would have never gotten to play on that new map. Also, with his help, we’re able to assist the Zephyrites in their time of need after being attacked by Ellen Kiel.

So I offer my 3 cheers to Hero of Lion’s Arch, an proclaim his new title to be Hero of Maguuma.

offence.4726:

Bro dont tell me that the players have enriched since anet basically nerfed every spot in the game besides the farm train in EOTM , yea im not out of the loop even if im on a big brake. The tp prices are obviously controlled since 2 weeks ago the prices we’re twice lower then they are now.

It puts me off the game anywayz cba with this economy

Please don’t blame us for your 5 month break. If you didn’t want to be in the position you’re at now, you should have kept playing. By not playing, you missed out on a LOT of game time that could have been used to increase your personal wealth.

And FYI – if you decide to take another break, I can promise you that you’ll be much further off than you are now. The new Living Story mechanics allow you to access past content, but you’ll have to pay Gems for it. Think about it.

Wanze.8410:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I really don’t know why you fixate on that reward diction thingie but as also stated more than enough, an imbalanced gold spread can be very harmful for every economy.
Also, every time when I explain why traiding post flippers have no (great) positive effect on the economy, all just keep saying “you’re wrong because they’re good for the economy”, which simply isn’t an argument.

Its not what I am saying but what John Smith said in earlier posts, here some quotes:

John Smith.4610:

It’s possible I’ve missed it and I apologize if that’s true, but I haven’t seen any evidence or even a correct hypothesis that a group of the rich can negatively effect your gameplay experience. I think a clear set of ideas would help me understand and respond to the issue.

P.S. Don’t say luxury goods or I will refer you to the first rule of the tautology club.

John Smith.4610:

Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.

John Smith.4610:

2. I know you said it already, but I’ll restate, that prices of high end goods aren’t being controlled.
3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

John Smith.4610:

Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.

The key problem in this debate is that HHR LostProphet doesn’t understand how the economy works. This is evident by his complete misunderstanding of the TP, it’s mechanics, and “profit structure”. This is one of the reasons why John doesn’t debate these silly threads as much as we do. No matter how much he tries to explain things, there are some players who just can’t, or won’t understand. I give John credit for trying though. He’s one of the few Anet employees that goes out of his way to talk to us players.

What happened is that the world keeps spinning while you were gone. The economy is just fine, because people who have been playing in the time that you left accumulated wealth. So while you were probably ok at the time you took a break, you had no chance to keep up with the wealth accumulation. New content came out. New reward opportunities. Etc.

And no, rich people had nothing to do with the price increases.

infantrydivEU.9670:

For the rewards

Seriously, pretty soon this game will have more weapons/armor originating from the gem store than from the actual game.

Oh well, the woes of a F2P game I suppose.

Are people OK with this? I’d actually almost prefer at this rate to not have new stuff added if it’s only gem store based.

What happened to doing a cool quest line or killing a difficult boss to get a weapon skin in games?

FYI

GW2 is a B2P game. And the amount of Weapons and Armors from the core game outnumber Gemstore Weapons and Armors by more than 10 fold. What you need to complain about is that there needs to be MORE Gemstore goods. I have Gems, and I’m willing to spend!